"And other swivelling methods"

[Dave J.]

The company I work for (Fisher) has been in the long range locating business since the early 1930's. The company has also used similar and unrelated technologies for short range locating. Fisher spun off the marine communications and radio direction finding division approx. 1970, but the underground locating division is alive and well more than 40 years later.

Today I was called to work to sort through a bunch of boxed-up stuff that had been in cold storage for a few years, and decide what to keep and what to throw out. As it turns out, most of the stuff in those boxes was museum items inherited from the defunct Los Banos operation. Geiger counters, acoustic leak detectors, a radio direction finder, some old 2-box units, some old TR "floor polisher" metal detectors, a searchcoil alignment fixture built in 1932, and a complete geophysical transmitter-receiver system with tripod and rotating antenna mount. The geophysical system was vacuum tube from 1956, but similar things date back decades earlier.

* * * * * * * *

The pity of LRL hobbyist experimentation is that the hobbyists have made the mistake of believing that commercial L-rod LRL "treasure finders" are technological apparatus that a hobbyist could perhaps replicate, when in fact such commercial stuff is fraudulent. It is not based on any kind of scientific principle other than the principle of deceiving gullibillies. Real electronic VLF-LF locating apparatus has meanwhile been around for about a century (predating even Fisher) and the underlying science is not a secret.

If someone either has no knowledge of the underlying science, or knows it but wants to argue with the Universe over its way of doing things, then fairy tales are what you get. With a sufficiently elaborate alabi system, the game of trying to defeat the Universe can go on until the coffin puts an end to it, such is the fate of mortals.

--Dave J.

[Dell Winders]

Dave, I don't know where you get your information from, but I know for a fact that your assessment of MFD & HID is wrong. Do you enjoy making statements that can't be supported by fact? Dell

[Dave J.]

Dell, you complain about the assertion that LRL stuff is fraudulent. But you offer no evidence why LRL's should have any credibility in the face of the absolutely overwhelming evidence of both a technical and advertising nature that the stuff is in fact fraudulent. And you guys are the ones who furnish the evidence! Like EE used to say on TNet, you guys are your own worst skeptics.

The stories of LRL fans themselves are sufficient evidence against the apparatus: what "skeptics" (i.e., people with brains having more backbone than a jellyfish) add is mere frosting on the cake. In fact I frequently post links to the statements and advertising of LRL fans so anyone with a brain having more backbone than a jellyfish can see that the LRL enterprise is fraudulent. The folks whose brains have no backbone, i.e. gullibillies, may fall for the LRL story line and fork over their dough once they've passed the wallet biopsy test. Just think, you yourself may be the financial beneficiary of my educational largesse!

Link to Dell's website: http://www.omnitron.net/

In all fairness, Dell, your website is rather conservative compared to (for instance) the ridiculous extravagance of the website for the calculator swingy thingies ( http://rangertell.com/ ).

--Dave J.

[Dell Winders]

And, if you were posting in all fairness you would have researched, investigated and learned the facts about the physics, and Science that support MFD, HID, and some LRL's, so you can be honest in your reporting.

Neither you, or any one of the Skeptic group has offered any legitimate Scientific evidence that what I state is not the truth. My same website has been there for over 20 years. The facts in it have not changed. I don't hide the truth. The products I build have withstood the test of time and consumer use without complaint. Who are you to argue with a long record of customer satisfaction, without providing any legitimate proof to the contrary?

The agenda driven lieing BS rhetoric about me from proclaimed Skeptics and cult followers of James Randi, and Carl Morland, has not, and cannot withstand the rigors of true Scientific testing of the facts. In light of the truth, you don't have a Scientific leg to stand on.

It amazes me how hard you guys work to distort the facts & truth about me. Dell

[Dave J.]

Dell, where would one find these alleged scientific facts supporting LRL's? They're not in this forum, they're not on the TNet forum, they're not on Mineoro's website, and they're not on your website, not evident in the actual design and manufacture of the products, not in any scientific publications and not even in LRL patents (!).

Pity the poor LRL hobbyist who comes here hoping for LRL gurus to explain to them how LRL's work, and they can't get any straight answers from the LRL gurus. All they get from the LRL fans and promoters is pseudoscientific blather, the product of lots of imagination trying to cover up the fact that the electronic part of the thing has nothing to do with detecting buried treasure, it's entirely bogus. Entirely, 100%. The only thing that works is the swivel, and as we know from long experience, that's the only thing that has to work for gullibillies to make up fairy tales about the bogus electronics.

And really, Dell, your website has been up unchanged for 20 years? Don't tell us, tell Al Gore!

*******************

This afternoon I put into storage two electronic VLF-LF long range locating gizmos dating from the 1950's that had swivels. The electronics weren't bogus. One probably had a range of thousands of miles under ideal conditions and the other probably up to several miles. They were engineered according to scientific principles and not even the Amazing Randi ever disputed them.

Had swivels, weren't bogus, really worked (before the batteries died.)The fact they weren't bogus and really worked is what makes them not LRL's. Nobody, not even Hung, refers to non-bogus electronic locating apparatus as "LRL".

--Dave J.

[J_Player]

This is interesting.
Since Dell has often described education that is taught to engineers in schools and universities to be "brainwashing", we are expected to feel that this scientific knowledge is to be considered suspect.
This is because it does not recognize the "facts about the physics, and Science that support MFD, HID, and some LRL's" to be anything different than pseudoscience.
Yet Dell does not tell us where we can find these "facts about the physics, and Science that support MFD, HID, and some LRL's".

However, some of these "facts" can be found on his website: http://www.omnitron.net/

Originally Posted by Dell Winders Website

"The electronics of these instruments are fixed to a normal magnetic field.
They can not compensate for field fluctuations therefore the operator must be aware of any changes by manually testing the unit.
The instrument and operator are measuring the differential between the magnetic field surrounding the earth and the fields created by the target metals, both ferrous and non-ferrous as well as other chemical elements.
It has become difficult at times to measure these differences because of increasing solar flare activity that produces surges in the magnetic field surrounding the earth which at times can become stronger than the field produced by the metals or the instrument.
Understanding this and other facets will contribute to your overall success with the instrument".

According to Dell's website, the "science facts" are that a swivelling brass rod with electronics attached are detecting variations in magnetic fields that are created by ferrous and non-ferrous metals as well as other chemical elements.
Dell also teaches that solar flares can cause surges in the earth's magnetic field which are stronger than the magnetic field anomalies from these metals, or the swivelling brass rod with the electronics attached.
-- and this can make it difficult to measure these magnetic differences that tell us where ferrous and non-ferrous as well as other chemical elements are located.

Let's consider the "science facts" that Dell is teaching us.
1. First, we must dismiss any notion that non-ferrous metals and other chemicals are incapable of causing magnetic field anomalies on the same order of magnitude as a solar flare.
According to Dell's teachings, these items create detectable magnetic anomalies.
2. Now that we have the new "facts of science" from Dell, we can proceed to learn which items are creating these magnetic anomalies on another of his web pages.
Some of these detectable items Dell listed are: Gold, silver copper, lead, nickel, diamond, emerald, garnet, flint, paper currency, pharmaceuticals, Cremora, and aspirin.
I am sure there are many others which we have not discovered yet.

Somehow this seems strange.
I mean, even if we ignore any "university science brainwashing" that says a bottle of aspirin does not cause a detectable magnetic anomaly, we still know that there are geologists who work with extremely sensitive magnetometers who cannot detect any anomaly from a bottle of aspirin.
But they can easily detect a solar flare which Dell says interferes with these magnetic anomalies.
It makes you wonder.
But since we are trying to learn "facts about the physics, and Science that support MFD, HID, and some LRL's", we can also ignore what geologists tell us.

Next we look at the Dell Winders product page: http://www.omnitron.net/del_prod.htm

There are two basic products for sale: The Dell Pro-4 Frequency discriminator for $950 and the X-Scan combo for $1195.
You can also buy the Dell Directional Rod for $300.

So what are these products?
The Pro-4 is a pair of brass dowsing rods in copper handles with wires connected to a low voltage adjustable frequency generator.
The frequency generator functions the same as any other battery powered frequency generator, and uses a microcontroller to produce the frequencies instead of a timer or frequency generator chip.
It also comes with a free weight chek' box with a non-electronic knob on it.
Functionally, the Dell Pro-4 works the same as carl's circuit for MFD which ma330 built. http://www.longrangelocators.com/for...ad.php?t=18487


The X-Scan appears to be the same frequency generator electronics connected to a brass rod with a plastic extension that contains two sample chambers.


On this page, we also find more "facts" published by Dell Winders.
After a lengthy description of all the testing he did, here is a fact that Dell tells us about the Dell Pro-4:
"The PRO-4 has yet to prove it's merit with a recovery".

Dell then goes on to tell us that as of August 2003, the X-Scan has only received limited testing...
"As of August 2003 the X-SCAN has only been tested under the Ground & Atmospheric conditions of Central Florida, USA on a limited variety of targets.
At the moment I really don't know the extent of it's capabilities, or of it's limitations".
Dell then goes on to invite people to Beta test the X-Scan in their conditions.

This seems strange.
Why would anyone pay $950 for a Pro-4 which Dell says hasn't recovered any treasure since it was introduced in 2003?
And why would we pay $1195 to help Dell Beta test an LRL which he does not know what are the capabilities and limitations of?
Does it seem strange that the X-Scan has been in Beta test since 2003?

But wait...
I don't really see any place where Dell states what these LRLs can locate.
He only describes them as his special kinds of rods connected to his adjustable frequency generator which can be tuned to different elements.
The only time I remember Dell answering a direct question about what his LRLs detect is when he answered Carl-NC in the treasurehunting forum:

Carl-NC: "Dell, of the LRLs you sell, can any of them actually detect gold?"
Dell Winders: "NO! In my opinion, the locators I sell DO NOT actually detect Gold. Dell"

Wait a minute...
Dell is charging $950 and $1195 for his rods because he added a signal generator that does not find treasure?
Isn't that what most LRL factories do?
Well not all... some charge more than $1195 for their rod-attached signal generators that do not find treasure.

Back to the "science facts"...
we see both of these products use brass swivel rods, and one has a plastic extension on it.
These are more examples of the "science facts" which demonstrate that brass and plastic rods are responding by moving as they are "measuring the differential between the magnetic field surrounding the earth and the fields created by the target" materials.
We must remember to discard any "brainwashing" which taught us that brass and plastic to not respond to magnetic fields similar to the strength found in the earth's field.
Then we can understand how these LRLs work with magnetism in the terms that Dell teaches.
But something seems amiss... the part about not detecting treasures....

Hmmm....
After looking at the facts that Dell showed us, it appears that it does not help to ignore "university science brainwashing" which tells us we can't detect a magnetic anomaly from a bottle of aspirin.
For $1195 I can buy a Dell X-Scan combo and perform free beta testing, while finding no treasure,
or I can buy a real metal detector that actually detects hidden metal.
Would I be wrong to buy a real metal detector?


Maybe Dell can tell ma330 why he cannot find treasure with his MFD which operates using the same kind of signal and rods as the Dell Pro-4?


Best Wishes,
J_P