MFD Frequencies?

[J_Player]

MFD Question for Tim Williams

Hi Tim,

I started a new thread to ask this question because it may lead to a discussion that is not relevant to the H3Tec testimonial thread where it arose from.

You have established your position that MFD is not the same method as MRI, and does not use magnetic detection methods at all.
While you don't explain how MFD can work or even make a claim that MFD works, you do acknowledge that some people find buried things when they are using MFD signal generators.
My question is about MFD frequencies. I am not opening this thread to argue about whether MFD works or not, only to ask about the frequencies used in MFD methods.

You have stated that MFD methods incorporate a signal generator which uses frequencies found in a table listing the NMR frequencies known to exist in the magnetic field found on the earth.

Originally Posted by Tim Williams

MFD is term used by Dell as the frequency at which elements resonate. Guess where it was taken from? The frequencies of NMR. So if I tell you that 197 Gold resonates at 36.80hz @ 50nt Would I be liying? Or 107 Ag @ 86.16? How about H @ 2128.58hz? Those are not harmonics.

If we put aside the unknown explanations and arguments of whether it works or not, we have an understandable element in MFD, ....the NMR frequencies.
As you described above, there are NMR frequencies in the audio range for most substances you would want to search for.
We also see people often posting questions of what frequencies to use.

It seems strange to me that anyone would ask.
These frequencies are published in many reference databases.
The only variation of any big importance would be the local earth magnetic field and temperature.
The average local magnetic fields of most locations on earth are published in databases, and the temperature can be found with a thermometer.
(I suppose you would be interested in the ground temperature at the depth you want to hunt for a treasure).
If you wanted an exact correction for the earth's magnetic field, then you could take a portable magnetometer to your treasure hunting site and measure it.
With this information, you could know with good precision what the NMR frequency is for any element.

Yet we see people keep posting requests for information of what frequency to use.
This seems silly, because the NMR frequency is not the same in one location as it is in another, simply because the magnetic field strength and the temperature are not the same.
They would obviously find a more precise NMR frequency by looking at the NMR tables and applying the correction factor for local temperature and field strength:

g = hv/BH

Secondly, we know the earth's magnetic field and temperature are constantly changing enough as time passes to make a substantial change in the frequency.
This is another reason why it would be appropriate to periodically check the temperature and magnetic field strength to adjust for the changed NMR frequency.
And even after we arrive at the calculated frequency, there will be minor adjustments to be made to correct for chemical impurities at the sample which will change the frequency.

So according to the same scientists who publish NMR data, we see the exact NMR frequency will be different when we change the magnetic field strength, the temperature, or the chemical invironment of the sampled element. This means the NMR frequency will be different when any of the following variables change:

1. temperature of the ground where the sample is located
2. chemistry of the ground where the sample is located, and impurities in the sample
3. time of day as the magnetic field and temperature changes
4. magnetic field changed from geographic location where the sample is being measured
5. materials in the ground or near the sample that concentrate magnetic field such as black sand, iron objects, magnetic rocks, etc.

The biggest variable is the geographical location, which can cause the frequency to become double or reduce to half because of the magnetic field strength can vary from double to half.
And the other variables seem to be constantly changing to such a degree I would want to check my calibration every 15 minutes or so to be reasonably close to the actual NMR frequency of an element.
I can envision carrying a portable magnetometer and a probe-style thermometer I could poke into the ground.
But I would see no usefulness to ask people in other locations what is the frequency.
This is because other locations seem very irrelevant to the NMR frequencies where I am located, considering I am at a different place and time.

So there is my question:
Why do people use standard fixed frequencies for MFD methods when we know the NMR frequencies are not standard fixed frequencies for the earth field in different locations and different times?
Why wouldn't a person adjust his frequency to the actual NMR frequency that is found at the time and place where he is located?

I also have a second question:
Why would anyone want to use a harmonic of a frequency when the fundamental NMR frequency resonates stronger?


Best wishes,
J_P

[Tim Williams]

Yes yes to all of the above! Very good. This is where I get my fields in nt.

http://www.ngdc.noaa.gov/geomagmodels/IGRFWMM.jsp

They use fixed because they don't know. When you are at the fundamental frequency temp does not bother you as much as harmonics.

Good job!

[aft_72005]

Hi J_player ant Tim Williams
I study about NMR and function generator with lords . Carl MFD article use sinuses
Wave and Carl VR 800 article use 555 as repeated pulses . it produced wide range
Harmonic frequencies ( saw on spectrum analyzer screen) .
Both wave method generation with LRODS produce behavior result .
Maybe LRODS with transmitter base on NMR . finally I cannot fined method base on theory !!!
Therefore released this subject at that time !!! . But also I am interest know more in
The mater .
Best regards.

[J_Player]

Originally Posted by aft_72005

Hi J_player ant Tim Williams
I study about NMR and function generator with lords . Carl MFD article use sinuses
Wave and Carl VR 800 article use 555 as repeated pulses . it produced wide range
Harmonic frequencies ( saw on spectrum analyzer screen) .
Both wave method generation with LRODS produce behavior result .
Maybe LRODS with transmitter base on NMR . finally I cannot fined method base on theory !!!
Therefore released this subject at that time !!! . But also I am interest know more in
The mater .
Best regards.

Hi Aft,
I never saw any evidence that a function generator can find hidden substances. There is no base theory to support this idea that makes any sense to me. But there is a theory about oscillating motions that resonate. The theory is that oscillating things tend move in a sinusoidal motion when they are oscillating mechanically or if they have charges or currents moving in a circular motion.

The theory suggests they will resonate with other oscillating things that are moving in a sinusoidal motion, whether mechanical or electronic. When we look at the 555 timer oscillators, these are usually producing square wave output that is sent to dowsing rods or to the ground.
This square wave represents a huge amount of odd harmonic sinusoidal oscillations mixed together, even though there is no electronic mixer (see here for some theory: http://www.tpub.com/content/neets/14.../14181_190.htm ). The result can be expected to be different from the same oscillator which is producing a well-formed sinusoidal wave instead of a square wave.

I don't know from experience, but I would expect a sine wave to respond mostly to other things resonating at the same frequency or a harmonic of it in reduced amounts. And I would expect the square wave to respond the same as the sine wave, except I would expect the square wave to resonate much stronger with the harmonic frequencies you are not interested in.

But that is just a guess based on what the Fourier transforms look like when we see the harmonics and noise levels. Since we have no working model for MFD due to no understandable theory of resonant transmission and coupling for MFD, we can make a model with an acoustic system that has a large pipe organ and an audio sound generator.

Let us suppose we set up the sound generator (audio amplifier) in front of the organ pipes and turn it on to make a sine wave at one frequency. We will expect the pipe that is tuned to the same frequency to resonate and make a sound we can hear. We would also expect pipes which resonate at the second, third and other harmonics to make weaker sounds. When we listen to sounds from pipes that resonate at much higher harmonic numbers of the fundamental frequency, we would expect their resonant sounds to become weaker.

Now, if we were to switch the audio sound generator to make a square wave, then I would expect much more of the wave energy is being sent to other harmonic frequencies rather than concentrating only at the fundamental frequency. I would expect the organ pipes tuned to harmonic frequencies to be making louder resonating sounds than when the sine wave sound was played. I would also expect the sound from the fundamental resonating pipe will not be heard as well as when we had a sine wave because its sound is becoming lost in the noise of the unwanted pipes filling the air with sounds at various odd harmonic frequencies.

If we translate this model into detecting objects with electronic resonance, it would mean we are more likely to detect the object with the same resonant frequency if we are using a sine wave. And if we are using a square wave, we are more likely to become confused by the false objects we are detecting at harmonics of the oscillator frequency.

There are also other wave shapes which produce various harmonic distributions of the fundamental frequency of the oscillator, and may cause strange results if you are trying to couple only to the object which has the same frequency as the oscillator.

Another thing to consider if you are expecting to find atoms oscillating at their NMR frequency when they are buried in the ground is they are not in a uniform magnetic field. This means that for any element, not all the atoms are oscillating at the same frequency. The un-evenness of the earth's field in most ground will cause the Fourier distribution to become mushy instead of a sharp peak that only rings at a single frequency. This means your resolution goes way down, and it becomes difficult to detect the object you want if there are other objects that have similar NMR frequencies nearby. The overlap of frequencies could easily confuse to cause a number of false detections which turn out to be some different element than what you are looking for. This is a condition where noise becomes a more prominent factor in the method of detection.

For people who are not technical, I just said I expect a sine wave works better than a square wave for resonant coupling. And I expect it to be very difficult to identify elements by their NMR frequencies if they are buried and are only in the earth's magnetic field instead of being placed inside a very strong and uniform magnetic field coil. And I said I don't think any of this resonant NMR stuff can work for MFD oscillators. And I also said it is possible I made some errors in my description above. Some of what I wrote is based on the theory rather than my experience.

Best wishes,
J_P

[Mike(Mont)]

Originally Posted by Tim Williams

Yes yes to all of the above! Very good. This is where I get my fields in nt.

http://www.ngdc.noaa.gov/geomagmodels/IGRFWMM.jsp

They use fixed because they don't know. When you are at the fundamental frequency temp does not bother you as much as harmonics.

Good job!

Thanks Tim. I input my coordinates and elevation. Then I divided this result by 50,000 then multiplied that result by 36.85 to get the frequency for my area. I went out into the strong sunlight and melting snow and it hit hard. I was using the thin wire with the magnet on the tip.

[Qiaozhi]

Originally Posted by J_Player

I am not opening this thread to argue about whether MFD works or not, only to ask about the frequencies used in MFD methods.

That's a shame ... because I was going to point out that this is like discussing what type of cheese the Moon is made of.

[Carl-NC]

The only variation of any big importance would be the local earth magnetic field and temperature.

Temperature doesn't really affect NMR precession frequencies.

[J_Player]

Originally Posted by Qiaozhi

That's a shame ... because I was going to point out that this is like discussing what type of cheese the Moon is made of.

We all know that,
hopefully if people know there is no fixed frequencies for NMR, we will stop reading requests for these frequencies clogging up our pages.

Originally Posted by Carl-NC

Temperature doesn't really affect NMR precession frequencies.

It is my understanding that temperature correction is close to nothing for practical purposes when treasure hunting. According to the formula temperature does not make much difference in frequency, but the temperature is part of the correction factor formula, which makes me think it is a good thing to measure. Maybe it will be found to be negligible, and only the magnetic field strength is important for calculating the NMR frequency in a typical earth field.

Best wishes,
J_P

[Qiaozhi]

Originally Posted by J_Player

We all know that,
hopefully if people know there is no fixed frequencies for NMR, we will stop reading requests for these frequencies clogging up our pages.

My point was with reference to the question: "What are the correct frequencies to use for MFD?" ... not NMR.
The question (by definition) is pointless.

[aft_72005]

“Another thing to consider if you are expecting to find atoms oscillating at their NMR frequency when they are buried in the ground is they are not in a uniform magnetic field. This means that for any element, not all the atoms are oscillating at the same frequency. The un-evenness of the earth's field in most ground will cause the Fourier distribution to become mushy instead of a sharp peak that only rings at a single frequency”
J_player
All of you said is correct and I am agree with you.

“For people who are not technical, I just said I expect a sine wave works better than a square wave for resonant coupling”
I did this test , LRODS work random !!!!.same times show me target place was correct
And sometimes not correct .
Strange point is here , The persons who believe LRODS is working good with more success and the persons don’t believe LRODS , without any success . !!!!!!
I cannot say as I couldn’t found theory , then therefore , there isn’t correct LRODS .
For this reason , I think as Qiaozhi said for several times in other threads in this forum .
“It is only trick of Mind “.
Best regards.

[J_Player]

Originally Posted by aft_72005

I did this test , LRODS work random !!!!.same times show me target place was correct
And sometimes not correct .
Strange point is here , The persons who believe LRODS is working good with more success and the persons don’t believe LRODS , without any success . !!!!!!
I cannot say as I couldn’t found theory , then therefore , there isn’t correct LRODS .
For this reason , I think as Qiaozhi said for several times in other threads in this forum .
“It is only trick of Mind “.
Best regards.

Hi Aft,
I found the exact same response from L-rods and from swivel handle LRL.
This makes me think not it is a trick of my mind.
It makes me think that random pointing will point to targets some times and point away from targets other times, all by random chance.
I see no trick. I see only random non-working rods and swivel handles.
For believers maybe it is a trick that makes their rods point to the target more times.
As long as they refuse to demonstrate their rods pointing to the target more times than random in a blind test, people will continue to think it is a trick.

But since we are only talking about NMR frequencies in this thread, I will save my discussions of whether MFD and rods work or not for other threads.


Best wishes,
J_P

[Carl-NC]

Originally Posted by J_Player

According to the formula temperature does not make much difference in frequency, but the temperature is part of the correction factor formula, which makes me think it is a good thing to measure.

Temp affects the SNR of the precession signal, but not the frequency. There is nothing to correct by measuring temp, because there is no correction for poor SNR. The best thing to do is get the temp as low as possible, which is what a Squid mag does.

Regarding "trick of the mind," that's a phrase I've used a lot to describe the "dowsing reaction" people get with dowsing rods and LRLs. That is, the "tugging" or "hesitation" feeling. What people feel is truly a mind trick, nothing more.

The overall use of a dowsing device, and the results obtained, are not a trick of the mind, but a result of knowledge (I already know where the target is at), intuition (this looks like a likely place to hunt), and blind luck (the random part). That's why, in a randomized blind test where knowledge and intuition are removed, the results are consistently blind luck. The funny thing is, practically all of the vocal LRL proponents know this! Which is why they avoid and even outright belittle any kind of scientific test.

- Carl

[aft_72005]

Originally Posted by Carl-NC

Temp affects the SNR of the precession signal, but not the frequency. There is nothing to correct by measuring temp, because there is no correction for poor SNR. The best thing to do is get the temp as low as possible, which is what a Squid mag does.

Regarding "trick of the mind," that's a phrase I've used a lot to describe the "dowsing reaction" people get with dowsing rods and LRLs. That is, the "tugging" or "hesitation" feeling. What people feel is truly a mind trick, nothing more.

The overall use of a dowsing device, and the results obtained, are not a trick of the mind, but a result of knowledge (I already know where the target is at), intuition (this looks like a likely place to hunt), and blind luck (the random part). That's why, in a randomized blind test where knowledge and intuition are removed, the results are consistently blind luck. The funny thing is, practically all of the vocal LRL proponents know this! Which is why they avoid and even outright belittle any kind of scientific test.

- Carl

Hi Carl
As you said , and as my experiment , when I know place of buried metals , could detect by
LRODS . and when I didn’t know couldn’t detect . only one thing also strange for me , I remember at place of this forum I saw movie about LRODS which powered by radioactive and sample . in this movie I saw the person didn’t know hidden place of sample , but lords
Pointed correct!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Best regards.

[aft_72005]

“But since we are only talking about NMR frequencies in this thread, I will save my discussions of whether MFD and rods work or not for other threads.”
Hi J_player
I remember saw cure about NMR in book. Resonance region is sharp. If assume LRODS
Base on NMR . then we need very precision and high stable oscillator for example 4.9876445…khz
Also we must be measure exactly magnetic vector amplitude at place of under search
Area. But all of oscillators use with LRODS is simply oscillator without high stability design .
Best regards.

[Rudy]

Originally Posted by Qiaozhi

That's a shame ... because I was going to point out that this is like discussing what type of cheese the Moon is made of.

Gruyere. I thought everyone knew that.

[Mike(Mont)]

On another thread Tim said NMR frequencies have nothing to do with MFD. I just thought I would mention this here as a sort of disclaimer.

I also want to reinterate MFD is not exactly like a radio transmitter and receiver as many of the skeptics seem to imagine. However the signal line works, it somehow acts as an antenna. Why does it take time to build up? If it was just a radio signal reflection it would take no time. From what I know about resonance, it does not have to be exact--maybe this is why it takes some time to build.

[Mike(Mont)]

I've done work with an electronic receiver and another coil I built. The signal line (or whatever you want to call it) is there. I have not been able to pick it up with the typical low power MFD. That's L-rod territory. I was able to boost the output and pick up a weaker signal. So I would say it's a power issue. Most MFD's run on very low power and there is a reason for this.

[aft_72005]

Originally Posted by Mike(Mont)

I've done work with an electronic receiver and another coil I built. The signal line (or whatever you want to call it) is there. I have not been able to pick it up with the typical low power MFD. That's L-rod territory. I was able to boost the output and pick up a weaker signal. So I would say it's a power issue. Most MFD's run on very low power and there is a reason for this.

Hi Mike
What is signal line? What is inside of receiver circuit ? is it tuned receiver on main transmitter frequency ?
Best regards.

[Mike(Mont)]

I don't have an exact definition of what a signal line is, but it must be some kind of concentration of lines of force that develop between an MFD transmitter and the target. My understanding is it is magnetic. That's what is detected when a person with L-rods walks around the transmitter. I do not know what is inside an electronic receiver.

[Jim]

Originally Posted by Mike(Mont)

.....develop between an MFD transmitter and the target.

MFD transmitter....isn't that just a basic/simple frequency generator?

How may inches ya reckon that MFD "transmitter" is transmitting?

Good grief

[Mike(Mont)]

In the link below, both circles and both squares are the exact same color.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:op...ange_brown.svg

[Qiaozhi]

Originally Posted by Mike(Mont)

In the link below, both circles and both squares are the exact same color.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:op...ange_brown.svg

No doubt your intention here is to demonstrate how reality can be somewhat different to what we see. In other words, the world is more mysterious than we can imagine, etc., etc.

But the real lesson here is how easily the human brain can be deceived. In fact quite similar to dowsing. Look how a simple test, using an image manipulation program, proves the circles and squares are actually the same, despite appearances. No need for extra-sensory perception, or things that go bump in the night. Just a simple computer program.

The lesson for today is "don't trust your senses". They can be tricked so easily. This is the reason we (the skeptics) use double-blind testing to reveal the true reality. You should try it sometime. It could save you a lot of unnecessarily wasted time reading books on mysticism and paraphysics. By the way, if this was supposed to be your trump card, I'm afraid you'll need to do better than that.

Thanks for sharing though. It's a very good optical illusion.

[Mike(Mont)]

Okay, I won't post anymore. I don't drink whiskey but I thought the lyrics were appropriate.

Click "play"

http://www.reverbnation.com/artist/song_details/2760771