Whites supporting LRL fraud?

[Infamy]

Is Whites happy to be associated with the LRL fraud?

Its one think to have a free site its another to allow fraudsters to operate on it, especially when it leads to deaths.

Just so you get the message here are the latest individuals to be arrested.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk/10269170.stm

[Qiaozhi]

Originally Posted by Infamy

Is Whites happy to be associated with the LRL fraud?

Its one think to have a free site its another to allow fraudsters to operate on it.

Just so you get the message here are the latest individuals to be arrested.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk/10269170.stm

This site is personally owned by Carl. It has no association with Whites Electronics.

[Infamy]

I don't split hairs when it leads to loss of life, do you?

[Qiaozhi]

Originally Posted by Infamy

I don't split hairs when it leads to loss of life, do you?

I don't see how this relates to Geotech. Of course, no-one here condones the sale of fake bomb detectors, or perhaps you think otherwise?

[J_Player]

Originally Posted by Qiaozh

I don't see how this relates to Geotech. Of course, no-one here condones the sale of fake bomb detectors, or perhaps you think otherwise?

I was going to post the same. I couldn't find White's connected to LRL fraud or anything in the article at the link Infamy posted.
Infamy's link article says organisations in the UK under investigation, not White's Electronics. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk/10269170.stm

Originally Posted by From BBC News link

Sites raided were linked to Global Tech, of Kent, Grosvenor Scientific, in Devon, and Scandec, of Nottingham.

Cash and hundreds of the devices have been seized, and a number of people are due to be interviewed under caution on suspicion of fraud.

The boss of another firm that sold detectors remains on police bail.

Jim McCormick, 53, of ATSC Ltd in Sparkford, Somerset, was originally arrested in January on suspicion of fraud by misrepresentation.

Does Infamy have secret information that White's tooled up to sell empty plastic gizmos to locate bombs in Afghanistan and Iraq?

Best wishes,
J_P

[kt315]

Originally Posted by Qiaozhi

This site is personally owned by Carl. It has no association with Whites Electronics.

now it has. if Carl in White's he says as White's presenter. you can visit another forums for example http://members5.boardhost.com/MetalD...275761405.html

PLEASE be more honest in some matters, Qiaohi. the site itself also has not assotiation with LRL and LRL frauds, you did want to say it geotechers?

[Qiaozhi]

Originally Posted by kt315

now it has. if Carl in White's he says as White's presenter. you can visit another forums for example http://members5.boardhost.com/MetalD...275761405.html

PLEASE be more honest in some matters, Qiaohi. the site itself also has not assotiation with LRL and LRL frauds, you did want to say it geotechers?

The situation is actually very clear.

The Remote Sensing Forum is a place for open technical discussion of long-range locating devices, both legitimate and suspect. It is the only forum on the internet that allows both sides of the argument to be presented, even though the administrators are skeptics. Moderation of the discussions is kept to a bare minimum to allow both proponents and skeptics to "work" together.

There is no support from either parties to support fraudulent devices that can cause death or injury. In general, suspect devices will only lose you some hard-earned money and buy you an expensive education. Advertising fraudulent bomb detection equipment would never be allowed.

Let's get back to the usual banter and heated/friendly discussions of the pseudo-scientific principles that underly LRLs, and cease these groundless accusations.

[Infamy]

This is an example of what is wrong with your approach to allowing LRL promotion on this site.

The forum for LRL fraud is Remote Sensing, which is a scientifically proven discipline. By attaching a fraud to Remote Sensing it is given a status it does not deserve, eg (Scientology a religious body with no basis in science) To muddy the waters even further, if this is coupled to users that are not native English speakers very soon what is intended to expose LRL fraud becomes an LRL promotional tool, a trap of unintended consequences.

If you are going to keep LRL fraud on this site I suggest it is put in a place just for LRL fraud eg 'LRL Myths Forum'.
secondly the evidence you have collected and written up Carl be given 'sticky' status so people are fully aware of what they are getting into.

[Qiaozhi]

Originally Posted by Infamy

... secondly the evidence you have collected and written up Carl be given 'sticky' status so people are fully aware of what they are getting into.

It's here -> http://www.geotech1.com/cgi-bin/page...&file=main.dat

Or perhaps you missed it?

[Carl-NC]

Originally Posted by Infamy

Its one think to have a free site its another to allow fraudsters to operate on it, especially when it leads to deaths.

Personally, I'm a very vocal skeptic of LRLs. I've spent a ton of money buying them and exposing the scams, and even been sued for my efforts. Yet I still allow people -- even proponents -- to discuss them on my web site. Have you ever wondered why?

- Carl

[Infamy]

Originally Posted by Carl-NC

Personally, I'm a very vocal skeptic of LRLs. I've spent a ton of money buying them and exposing the scams, and even been sued for my efforts. Yet I still allow people -- even proponents -- to discuss them on my web site. Have you ever wondered why?

- Carl

I do know why, but is it worth running this site into the ground?

[Geo]

Originally Posted by Carl-NC

Personally, I'm a very vocal skeptic of LRLs. I've spent a ton of money buying them and exposing the scams, and even been sued for my efforts. Yet I still allow people -- even proponents -- to discuss them on my web site. Have you ever wondered why?

- Carl

Hi Carl.

I wondered but i have not the answer!!!

Regards

[kt315]

I too ask American people and people with good English to confirm our efforts for full deleting LRL frauds topics from the site. why you are silent? why you are so cynical if you see Geotech is the frauds' accumulated paradise place worldwide? what is Remote Sensing for you?

[WM6]

Originally Posted by kt315

what is Remote Sensing for you?

http://www.geotech1.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16343

[J_Player]

Originally Posted by kt315

I too ask American people and people with good English to confirm our efforts for full deleting LRL frauds topics from the site. why you are silent? why you are so cynical if you see Geotech is the frauds' accumulated paradise place worldwide? what is Remote Sensing for you?

I speak fairly good English, and I can confirm you have an interest to delete all LRL fraud topics from this site.
Both you and WM6 as well as Infamy are confirmed to be forum members who want to see all LRL fraud topics deleted from Geotech.

I doubt Carl-NC agrees that he also wants all LRL fraud topics deleted from his forums. In fact, as owner of this site, Carl-NC could delete all LRL topics, and even the entire Remote Sensing forum if he chose to. But he has never deleted anything except posts which are personally abusive. Maybe the majority of forum members are silent because they also agree with Carl that they don't want the fraudulent LRL posts deleted. Can you think of a reason why not?
I can think of several reasons I don't want to see the LRL posts deleted:

Some reasons not to delete fraudulent LRL topics from forum posts at Geoteh:
1. There are few LRL forums surviving on the internet at all. Most become dead forums after a short burst of enthusiasm. These kind of forums generally revert to becoming message boards for a small group of friends, and are not a suitable place for an average curious person to look for a large database of information about the LRL topics. Because Geotech has one of the strongest LRL forums, it is a place where people come to learn the facts.

2. This is one of the few places on the internet where anyone who registers can make a post about any LRL and say what they want about the LRLs. Most other LRL forums are heavily moderated in a manner that only one point of view is allowed to be posted. Geotech is focused on the technical aspects of metal locating equipment, while other public LRL forums are focused on subjective anecdotes and attacking the character of other members. I don't see as much in the way of technical details at other forums like we see at Geotech.

3. Geotech is the only forum which uses technical knowledge to educate people about LRL frauds. The Geotech Remote Sensing forum has three simple rules which put any LRL claims into the open for critical review:

• You must be a registered user to post here. Guests may read.
• Be polite. Name calling will get you banned quickly.
• Be factual. If you make an extraordinary claim, be prepared to get challenged.

This is a mechanism where anyone may demand facts rather than unsubstantiated claims. It is this feature which allows thousands of readers to see how any particular LRL does or does not perform. An average reader can come here and read to see what response an LRL enthusiast has offer when a technically knowledgeable person challenges his claims. And not only do readers see the dialog of LRL enthusiasts declining challenges, they see actual photos of the insides of many LRL frauds, and circuit diagrams to show what kind of electronics these devices have inside (in the cases where they actually have electronic circuits).

4. From a philosophical and historical background, there is a large body of evidence that shows censorship does not work to eliminate bad ideas. In cases where "bad" ideas were censored, the people who wanted to know these ideas always found a way. No amount of making rules of "illegal" ideas stopped people from finding the information they wanted, just as no amount of rules ever stopped people from finding a way to go treasure hunting.

But a method that does work is education. When all points of view are allowed, then any intelligent person can look at all the different ideas, and decide which is right for himself. Without a place like Geotech, these same people would have little information. Maybe they would only see what they read on a fraudulent website, or what someone tells them. Maybe this would be enough to convince them to buy a non-working device. When an average consumer goes online to learn about a product, he looks for honest reviews. If he sees only one point of view at a website, he knows it is slanted, and not to be trusted as honest. But if he hears many points of view, then he can see nobody has kept people from talking about the bad as well as the good, and he is much more likely to continue reading to learn what people have to say about the product.

How often do you see a post at Geotech asking if a particular detector works or not, then see a lot of posts advising the person about that detector? Haven't you read hundreds of posts warning people not to buy certain brands and models? Haven't thousands of dollars been saved by people who would have wasted their money? These are only the very small percentage of readers who decide to post a question. There are hundreds more who simply read this forum, and they see the answers without needing to ask any questions. Are these the forum posts you want to see removed?

Fraudsters operating in Geotech?
What about fraudsters operating here -- when it leads to deaths?
What fraudsters are causing deaths here at Geotech?
The deaths I read about are from a group of LRL producers who have multimillion dollar contracts to deliver non-working bomb detectors to the military in Iraq, Afghanistan and other countries. These are not treasure finding machines, and none of the people involved are operating here in Geotech. The appearance is both the sellers and buyers of these fraud detectors are aware they don't work, and are happy to give these detectors to unknowing users because they are becoming rich from government approved money during the sales transaction. While this bribery cannot be proved, people are dying because they are instructed to rely on these detectors to keep them safe from bombs. What does this have to do with Geotech?

For one, none of the companies or individuals involved in this fraud operate at Geotech. But if they did, I doubt many Iraqi or Afghan soldiers read the Geotech forums.
But let's suppose there are people using fake bomb detectors who are reading the Geotech forum to see if they work or not.
What would they find in their search?
Do you suppose they would find some hint of a warning here at Geotech instead of hearing how they work fine like the bomb detector salesmen tell them?

Originally Posted by Theseus

Warning!!!! ... See here: http://www.geotech1.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16243

Originally Posted by Carl-NC

...stuffed full of do-nothing garbage
... claims of this unit are blatantly false
... what it appears to be: useless garbage
... complete and utter nonsense
... etc. etc. etc. - See here: http://www.geotech1.com/cgi-bin/page...le=reports.dat

Originally Posted by J_Player

Take a look at this page: http://sniffexquestions.blogspot.com/

There are hundreds more pages and thousands of posts showing warnings of fraud LRLs in the Geotech Remote Sensing forums.
It appears to me that Geotech has one of the few forums that tells the real story behind fake detectors. I doubt this would happen if these fraud LRL posts would be deleted here.

Best wishes,
J_P

[WM6]

Originally Posted by J_Player

Both you and WM6 as well as Infamy are confirmed to be forum members who want to see all LRL fraud topics deleted from Geotech.

Please J_Player, read Sceptic Declaration again, there is nothing about LRL topics deleting.

http://www.geotech1.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16343

[goldfinder]

Originally Posted by Carl-NC

Personally, I'm a very vocal skeptic of LRLs. I've spent a ton of money buying them and exposing the scams, and even been sued for my efforts. Yet I still allow people -- even proponents -- to discuss them on my web site. Have you ever wondered why?

- Carl

I am quite happy with Carl's LRL forum. There is nothing bad about discussing a potentially very useful discovery if someone came up with a real working LRL that is duplicatable and does in fact detect beyond the range of current metal detectors.

To me trying to invent an LRL is a scientific endeavor. Science aims to discover how the universe functions. Many of science's theories have gone by the wayside in the past when new discoveries invalidated wrong theories. So despite the fact that current science says an LRL is not feasible, is a non sequitur, the quest is worth the effort.

Goldfinder

[thepest]

I'm sorry.... but..... there is a thing in this country of Americans that speak good and not so good english.... It is consistantly disrepsected and ridiculed by other's....Especially from other country's.... It's the 1ST Amendment of our Constitution... and it garunteees everyone a right of say.... no matter where they're from.... no matter how out of whack others think their opinions are.... If You Are Insulted By Freedom Of Speach???? Don't Listen.... It Ai'nt Rockett Science.... You Can Tell By My Spullin How Well Edumacated I Am...... I Ai'nt Talkin Nun Too Good English Neither.

[WM6]

Originally Posted by thepest

I'm sorry.... but..... there is a thing in this country of Americans that speak good and not so good english.... It is consistantly disrepsected and ridiculed by other's....Especially from other country's.... It's the 1ST Amendment of our Constitution... and it garunteees everyone a right of say.... no matter where they're from.... no matter how out of whack others think their opinions are.... If You Are Insulted By Freedom Of Speach???? Don't Listen.... It Ai'nt Rockett Science.... You Can Tell By My Spullin How Well Edumacated I Am...... I Ai'nt Talkin Nun Too Good English Neither.

In priciple you are right.
But all is relative and Freedom Of Speach too.
If you dont believe, then try to defend publicly Al-Qaeda and you will see how Freedom Of Speach practically work in USA.
I think that goal of LRL scam intolerances is to protect Human Rights and not to exclusive protect only Freedom Of Speach.
One Human Rights are limited by Human Rights of other people.

[thepest]

@-----> WM6 : it is my opinion..... that you're comparing apples and oranges..... but..... i respect your right to say so.....
if someone wants to spend the 2 bits on a permit....to stand on a soap box...... and talk to an empty house..... it's they're right..... it does'nt mean we're listening or suportin them..... it just means they got the right to do it....
leaving this forum up.... is the right thing to do.... anyone who has taken a seriouse look at this thing.... has backed clean off it.... you shut it down... and it all goes underground.....then the allure is more powerfull....
this way.... it's in the light.... and expossed for what it is..... wether you beleive or not is on the beholder.....
can we quit all this and have beer now