Electrotactile seeing

[Mike(Mont)]

BrainPort is a device that allows the user to see with their tongue. This concept goes a long way in explaining dowsing.

http://science.howstuffworks.com/brainport1.htm

[Max]

Originally Posted by Mike(Mont)

BrainPort is a device that allows the user to see with their tongue. This concept goes a long way in explaining dowsing.

http://science.howstuffworks.com/brainport1.htm

Hmmm... brainport... that's why girls... ops... ehm...

You're so funny Mike!

I remember first time I saw similar device was on TV in 80's (maybe 25years ago)... I was not too old... but you know... I always have been passionate for science!

The TV documentary was about sensitive devices... in particular for people that cannot see anymore... the device was a camera and a series of hydraulic-push-rods placed in a large array on the back of a chair:
the image pattern produced by camera thing was converted in pressure that the rods applied on the back of the person, who was seated on the strange "chair".

The report was about the fact his brain can elaborate a pattern like the image to let him understand what's captured by camera.
The array grid was something 20x20 rods if I remember well... so not that hi resolution (400 "pixels").

But then ???

What's the purpose of sending that link to people here... in remote sensing???

Do you think will find a tresure using this kind of stuff ???

And how will you detect from remote the treasure ??? Which is the sensor???

You missed the important part of article... these things are just kind of "converters" , you have data available in one way that's impossible for disabled person to "read" , then device simply converts that in electrical impulses or (like my example) pressure on the back!

Then ? What you wanna convert ? You have no input Mike.

BTW the person in the picture...well... is really disturbing... what's relationship with LRLs?

The real interesting question is WHY you posted that!?

you need SERIOUS examination... I think...

Kind regards,
Max

[J_Player]

Originally Posted by Mike(Mont)

BrainPort is a device that allows the user to see with their tongue. This concept goes a long way in explaining dowsing.

Hi Mike(Mont),

This is an interesting device. However, I cannot usnderstand how it goes a long way in explaining dowsing.

According to the article, the BrainPort Balance Device was built to help people with an impaired sense of balance to electronically sense a state of balance and imbalance, then display them in the form of small electrical voltages applied to the tongue. In other words, a person with a damaged inner ear may have trouble maintaining his balance when walking. He can be fitted with a small accelerometer connected to the Brainport that tells him when he is beginning to tip over via electric impulses sent to his tongue. So now, the BrainPort user walks around without tipping over as long as he is wearing the BrainPort with accelerometer around his neck, and a small tube reaching inside his mouth so he can taste small electric charges to tell him when he is beginning to lean too far, and is in danger of falling.

The makers of BrainPort list current and potential uses to alleviate the symptoms of a variety of disorders.
Just a few of the current or foreseeable medical applications include:

* providing elements of sight for the visually impaired
* providing sensory-motor training for stroke patients
* providing tactile information for a part of the body with nerve damage
* alleviating balance problems, posture-stability problems and muscle rigidity in people with balance disorders and Parkinson's disease
* enhancing the integration and interpretation of sensory information in autistic people

The main objective of this machine is to provide an alternate sensory path for people with an impaired sensory organ. In cases of damaged inner ear, it provides some of the function of inner ear by signaling the tongue with small charges. In the case of a blind person, a small digital camera is fitted to thte BrainPort which sends small charges to the tongue based on the image in the camera. Not all sight is restored, only what the user is able to learn to interperet from the charges on his tongue. So it appears the Brainport is a crude attempt to mimic the impaired sense by sending charges to the tounge which vary as the signal detected by a small accelerometer or camera.

However, I can see no way that this BrainPort "alternate electronic nerve sensor path" goes a long way, or any way at all in explaining dowsing. Dowsing has been explained to be a sensory input by many people. One group says dowsing is an idea-motor response.

In order for the BrainPort to help explain ideamotor, it must be put in service where the explanation can be seen. So what kind of sensor do you hook up to the Brainport for input to explain ideamotor response? Is there an electromechanical device that will sense the same "idea" as a dowser thinks when he sends muscle impulses to his hands?

Another group says dowsing works by radionics. Again, what kind of electromechanical sensor do you connect to the BrainPort to sense the "radionic signal", and send resulting decoded pulses to the tongue?

Another group says dowsing works as fairy tales and make believe. Does this mean we should just pretend to connect a sensor to the BrainPort, and make believe we are sensing resulting electrical charges on the tongue? Well, perhaps I just answered my own question. Maybe this explains how the BrainPort goes a long way in explaining dowsing.

Best Wishes,
J_P

[Qiaozhi]

Originally Posted by Mike(Mont)

BrainPort is a device that allows the user to see with their tongue. This concept goes a long way in explaining dowsing.

http://science.howstuffworks.com/brainport1.htm

Originally Posted by J_Player

This is an interesting device. However, I cannot usnderstand how it goes a long way in explaining dowsing.

Neither can I.

[Mike(Mont)]

My fault. I thought I was dealing with someone who could understand this. Sorry, I won't make the mistake again.

I'll spell out a couple of details. The human skin is capable of receiving a much wider range of frequencies than the eyes. This article explains how this is translated to the brain.

[Qiaozhi]

Originally Posted by Mike(Mont)

My fault. I thought I was dealing with someone who could understand this. Sorry, I won't make the mistake again.

I'll spell out a couple of details. The human skin is capable of receiving a much wider range of frequencies than the eyes. This article explains how this is translated to the brain.

The article is describing the technique of electrotactile stimulation for sensory substitution, and has nothing to do with dowsing.

Unless, of course, you are connecting this to dowsing by referring to stimulation of the skin from a non-existent signal line. In which case your reference has more to do with an overactive imagination.

[Theseus]

Originally Posted by Mike(Mont)

My fault. I thought I was dealing with someone who could understand this. Sorry, I won't make the mistake again.

I'll spell out a couple of details. The human skin is capable of receiving a much wider range of frequencies than the eyes. This article explains how this is translated to the brain.

That's okay, don't get all upset, Mike. You are dealing with people who totally understand what you are proposing; that's why you got the responses you did.

Your incessant fixation with the ancient practice of dowsing is blinding you to realities that other more rational observers are not suffering.

In short, anything and everything that you might be exposed to, especially articles and books, that mention sensing, or frequencies or reception of as yet unidentified fields and radiations --you immediately try to tie it into the practice of dowsing. And, if that were not enough, you get irritated when rational folks don't validate your imaginary associations.

Dowsing does not work because of frequencies or sensing things through the skin. It is merely a trick of the mind, and regardless if you plug a bunch of do-nothing black boxes into the ground or not, the little bent wire you carry in your hand(s) will only move after an ideomotor response occurs within the operator.

It is really no more complicated than that; and your attempts to tie it to something physical or external frequencies will always be met with disagreement.

[Fred]

Originally Posted by Mike(Mont)

This concept goes a long way in explaining dowsing.

Is must be because in both cases you end up with a bad taste in the mouth...

[Mike(Mont)]

Yeah, I guess you know.

[Mike(Mont)]

Like Robert Hunter sings,
"Trouble with you is the trouble with me,
Got two good eyes but you still can't see"

I would call it "blinded by extreme skepticism" or "extreme bias". You know they say people who are emotionally upset cannot dowse. They can't learn as easily. So go look in the mirror. I mean I post some info about this BrainPort and I am accused of being insane and angry??? I sense you bunch feel threatened by me.

[Fred]

Originally Posted by Mike(Mont)

I mean I post some info about this BrainPort and I am accused of being insane and angry??? I sense you bunch feel threatened by me.

The problem (if any) is not that you post info about Brainport, is that you expose it as a proof to dowsing .
Just explain what frequencies are sensed by the skin and how , it will be more usefull.
And perharps you should (re)read the article yourself...

[Theseus]

Originally Posted by Mike(Mont)

Like Robert Hunter sings,
"Trouble with you is the trouble with me,
Got two good eyes but you still can't see"

I would call it "blinded by extreme skepticism" or "extreme bias". You know they say people who are emotionally upset cannot dowse. They can't learn as easily. So go look in the mirror. I mean I post some info about this BrainPort and I am accused of being insane and angry??? I sense you bunch feel threatened by me.

Mike, it is not problem of skepticism or bias. Most of us here know and understand exactly how dowsing works. To say one is skeptical is to say they question, or are not sure how something works. I for one, am not skeptical about dowsing because I understand completely how it works (or does not work) and I have a complete understanding of the mechanisms involved. Yes, I've tested and experimented with a great number of dowsing tools, under many and various conditions to arrive at my knowledge and conclusions.

For instance, the dowsing I perform works (or does not work) exactly like the dowsing you practice; and with exactly the same results, when fairly tested.

It is simple cause and effect. The effect, or results from any dowser are exactly the same. The biggest difference is, you want to believe a whole lot of esoteric (even physical) stuff is going on to cause the effect; and most of us here do not and cannot buy into that notion because of the overwhelming proof we have gained through practical knowledge, countless experiments and substantiated results from many other investigators.

Threatened? By you? Not in the slightest.

[Esteban]

Electrotactile sensor rods

An approximative device for dowsing rods but electronic involved can be like this. Don't check very well for errors.

[Theseus]

Originally Posted by Esteban

Electrotactile sensor rods

An approximative device for dowsing rods but electronic involved can be like this. Don't check very well for errors.

Just curious; why one handle out of copper and the other steel?

[Esteban]

Originally Posted by Theseus

Just curious; why one handle out of copper and the other steel?

Metal as steel - copper form a pair, steel for negative and copper for positive. You can check introducing in soil 2 rods: copper for positive and steel for negative. Also you can experiment this: put a copper plate at light of Sun. Over this copper plate a mesh of zinc or steel in contact. Let to warm and you'll obtain some small electricity: copper plate is positive and the "fabric" of zinc or steel become negative, exactly has acid - copper - zinc battery. Four "legs" of the zn "fabric" touch the copper plate. The "fabric" of zn is only ilustrative, not need to be very "intricate" (dense).

[J_Player]

Originally Posted by Esteban

Electrotactile sensor rods

An approximative device for dowsing rods but electronic involved can be like this. Don't check very well for errors.

Thank you, Esteban.

Now that we have an electromechanical device that can sense the "dowsing signal". I can see an immediate dowsing use for the BrainPort. Let's suppose a person built Esteban's circuit, and discovered they cannot detect the dowsing signal via beeping. This is a clear indication of nerve malfunction in the inner ear or other sensory deficiency -- exactly what the BrainPort is designed for. We can simply connect the output of Esteban's circuit to the BrainPort, and then "taste" the dowsing signal.
See below:

[Esteban]

Originally Posted by J_Player

Thank you, Esteban.

Now that we have an electromechanical device that can sense the "dowsing signal". I can see an immediate dowsing use for the BrainPort. Let's suppose a person built Esteban's circuit, and discovered they cannot detect the dowsing signal via beeping. This is a clear indication of nerve malfunction in the inner ear or other sensory deficiency -- exactly what the BrainPort is designed for. We can simply connect the output of Esteban's circuit to the BrainPort, and then "taste" the dowsing signal.
See below:

Hi J_P

No tested yet, maybe need some adjustment, always exists several changes... but this is the base. Other IC can be TL074 or special chip designed for electronic instrumental used in medicine.

Transpiration made more conductive the skin causes also by the salt. One factor here is that each person has different resistence in the skin and also special powder is necessary in hands for to neutralize effects of transpiration. Maybe other factor is to use rubber shoes for not to disperse the "signal", also for no to be much influenciated by other type of currents of the soil.

Regards

Esteban

[Max]

Originally Posted by J_Player

Thank you, Esteban.

Now that we have an electromechanical device that can sense the "dowsing signal". I can see an immediate dowsing use for the BrainPort. Let's suppose a person built Esteban's circuit, and discovered they cannot detect the dowsing signal via beeping. This is a clear indication of nerve malfunction in the inner ear or other sensory deficiency -- exactly what the BrainPort is designed for. We can simply connect the output of Esteban's circuit to the BrainPort, and then "taste" the dowsing signal.
See below:

Hi,


He can also put the output pair in another place... that I don't say, cause I wanna be polite...

But maybe works better... who knows...

Only way to know... as already described is that they pass a ground loop around jewels (ala Abu Ghraib) and the output signal wire in such... place...

LRL guys... c'mon try it, then report here!

Kind regards,
Max

[Clondike Clad]

Originally Posted by Esteban

Electrotactile sensor rods

An approximative device for dowsing rods but electronic involved can be like this. Don't check very well for errors.

This will not work and that is that.
ANYONE WHO CAN TELL WAHT A RESISTOR FROM A TRANSISTOR CAN SEE THAT THIS WILL NOT WORK.WHAT THE HE11 IS THE TL084 DOING??????.
THIS IS A DO NOTHING CIRCUIT.

[J_Player]

Originally Posted by Theseus

Mike, it is not problem of skepticism or bias. Most of us here know and understand exactly how dowsing works.

Hi Theseus,
One problem with Mike's complaint is he likens other readers to people who can't see.
"Trouble with you is the trouble with me,
Got two good eyes but you still can't see"

It seems to me Mike is correct. The readers just can't see the connection between dowsing and the BrainPort Balance Device. The reason they can't see this connection is because it does not exist except in the mind of Mike(Mont). Initially, Mike provided only his statement, and a link to read about the BrainPort. Using the information he provided, any ordinary person would conclude they read nothing to explain anything about dowsing. What Mike(Mont) omitted from his post was a few lines of information -- (his opinions ahout the mechanisms of dowsing relyuing on sensing frequencies at the skin or other human organ, or signal lines, or 3-dimensional spacial anomalies, or whetever else he believes). Without knowing what else the reader is expected to believe, and reading only what Mike(Mont) posted, there is no way an ordinary reader will see any connection to the BrainPort and dowsing.

In order to "see", the reader must be told that they are to first believe there are frequencies emanating from a dowsing target that can be sensed by the skin or other organ, and the brainport is a good appliance to use for "dowsing signal challenged" people. Then they will see some sort of connection between the BrainPort and dowsing.

Of course, after being given the necessary prerequisite information, the connection the reader "sees" will be compromised if he decides he should not believe there are frequencies emanating from the dowsing target, or they cannot be sensed by a person, etc. So what we are left with is a post made with missing prerequisite information that is being used by test proctor Mike(Mont) to determine who can "see" and "can't see". The result is if you are a reader who does not already happen to have formed the same conclusions and developed the same beliefs about dowsing as Mike(Mont), then you will fail his test as a person who "can't see".

Ummmm... Has anyone considered that Mike(Mont) failed by not posting the prerequisite information needed to "see the connection"?
I mean, when people just can't learn, isn't it sometimes caused by an inarticulate teacher?

Best wishes,
J_P