Franco's LRL ver_4046

[Geo]

I have make all the versions of Franco's lrl (except this at 59Khz).
Other worked good other nothing. I had a wooden box and decided to put inside the version with 4046 that i had constructed before long time. I shielding the box with foil and have put inside the pcb... baterys etc. I saw that now it did n't beep when i touch the antenna.
So i open this thread to talk about it with all that you have constructed it.

A photo from box for begining....

[Geo]

here the file from Franco....

At collector of Tr4 (point X) i measure a voltage of 4.6V dc.
At pin 2 of 4046 i measure 3.010V and when i touch the antenna it falls to 2.090V (20 mv difference), but don't beep. I decided to give more gain at IC2A by decreasing R6.
Any other idea??? or problems from you??

[abdou2014]

Nice Work ! how did you calibrate Franco LRL at this frequency ?

[FrancoItaly]

Hi Geo,
Good work, but I don't know if my lrl works at this frequency, I have tried but with bad results. TR2-TR3-TR4 stages work well in the range 2-10Mhz, with 59Khz you must change C13 and C15, try 10 or 20nF, TR1 is also the "heart" where is the detection of the phenomenon, the base-emitter junction has a capacity of about 10pF, compatible with the resonant frequency of L1 / C1, very far from 59Khz. However, in the collector of TR4 you must have 1-4 volt AC, also check that the LRL functions in reverse mode as happened to another member of the forum. At pin out of LM358A there is some change touching the antenna? If not there is a wrong bias in LM358A, If this is the case try to connect a resistor (about 100K) between the pin - of the LM358A with + 12V and if there are no results with ground.
Best Regards

[enjoykin4]

Hello Signore Geo

About Franco PLL-LRL


With P1 you can adjust frequency of CD4046. Good starting value 3 MHz. Try lower frequecny. For P1 use good quality 25 turns 100K trimmer potentiometer for fine tunning frequency.

P2 is saturation 1k trimmer potentiometer and adjust amount of signal amplitude which goes to mixer stage L1-C11-C10-C9-C8-Tr2. This part is crucial for proper working. You must not SATURATE mixer stage or you can't catch "scalar signa" from the antenna. There is present some kind of "scalar edge modulation" of input signals by PLL from noble metals.

Scalar filed is make each time when two vector Electric fields E striking each other with 180 degree phase shift. One of condition for scalar generation is the system must be in resonance.

At joint point R17-R16-Collector T4 should be a nice sinus 3Vpp which decrease sharp when you touch the antenna with hand(s).

The antenna is very important stuff. Right spin wounded antenna is different from left spin wounded antenna. Try both. Also try left-right or right-left windings for anrtenna. For example 35 turns left when 180 degre change direction when wight windings.

This FrancoLrl should be examined and tested very carefully with lot of experimenting.

I wish you luck.
Reg.Enjoykin4

[Geo]

Hi Geo,
Good work, but I don't know if my lrl works at this frequency, I have tried but with bad results. TR2-TR3-TR4 stages work well in the range 2-10Mhz, with 59Khz you must change C13 and C15, try 10 or 20nF, TR1 is also the "heart" where is the detection of the phenomenon, the base-emitter junction has a capacity of about 10pF, compatible with the resonant frequency of L1 / C1, very far from 59Khz. However, in the collector of TR4 you must have 1-4 volt AC, also check that the LRL functions in reverse mode as happened to another member of the forum. At pin out of LM358A there is some change touching the antenna? If not there is a wrong bias in LM358A, If this is the case try to connect a resistor (about 100K) between the pin - of the LM358A with + 12V and if there are no results with ground.
Best Regards

Hi Franco.
I don't want to make it to work at 59Khz, only i wrote that i constructed all your versions except this at 59Khz. I did n't measure the pinout of IC2 when i touch the antenna but what i see is that some times the voltage of pin2 of 4046 is increased and other is decreased and i can't understand why. I connected a portable (no gnd) oscilloscope to see for self-oscillations but it works ok. Will try to decrease the output of Tr4 lower than 4v and to see what happens after it.

Regards

[Geo]

Nice Work ! how did you calibrate Franco LRL at this frequency ?

Wich frequency???
4046 works near to 2.5Mhz...

[FrancoItaly]

As says enjoykin4 it's better to work with original frequency, about 3Mhz or less ( at max working frequence the CD4046 absorbs more current). At 59Khz L1 is short circuit for the phenomenon, I propose this change, a ferrite rod as antenna and a transistor for amplify the 59Khz signal.

[Geo]

Hello Signore Geo

About Franco PLL-LRL


With P1 you can adjust frequency of CD4046. Good starting value 3 MHz. Try lower frequecny. For P1 use good quality 25 turns 100K trimmer potentiometer for fine tunning frequency.

P2 is saturation 1k trimmer potentiometer and adjust amount of signal amplitude which goes to mixer stage L1-C11-C10-C9-C8-Tr2. This part is crucial for proper working. You must not SATURATE mixer stage or you can't catch "scalar signa" from the antenna. There is present some kind of "scalar edge modulation" of input signals by PLL from noble metals.

Scalar filed is make each time when two vector Electric fields E striking each other with 180 degree phase shift. One of condition for scalar generation is the system must be in resonance.

At joint point R17-R16-Collector T4 should be a nice sinus 3Vpp which decrease sharp when you touch the antenna with hand(s).

The antenna is very important stuff. Right spin wounded antenna is different from left spin wounded antenna. Try both. Also try left-right or right-left windings for anrtenna. For example 35 turns left when 180 degre change direction when wight windings.

This FrancoLrl should be examined and tested very carefully with lot of experimenting.

I wish you luck.
Reg.Enjoykin4

Hi Enjoykin4, thanks for your advices.
About potentiometers i use multiturn as you say. Only difference is that i adjusted P2 for 4.6v out at collector of TR4. Will try to readjust it.
P1 can't tune PLL higher than 2.7Mhz but i don't see any problem to it.
About antenna i use a simple stylus without coil. Do you think that the coil version is better??

Regards

[Geo]

As says enjoykin4 it's better to work with original frequency, about 3Mhz or less ( at max working frequence the CD4046 absorbs more current). At 59Khz L1 is short circuit for the phenomenon, I propose this change, a ferrite rod as antenna and a transistor for amplify the 59Khz signal.

Franco, i don't like to work 59 Khz
Do you use translator???????

[enjoykin4]

Geo and others who make Franco4046LRL -> for the antenna use original Francoitaly coil antenna with 70 windings. For better distance use more than 70turns . I have a good results with 700 turns 0.4mm diameter magnet wire without spacing between turns.

Use "star" grounding. All ground wires go to one point and that point to sheild box.

[Geo]

Geo and others who make Franco4046LRL -> for the antenna use original Francoitaly coil antenna with 70 windings. For better distance use more than 70turns . I have a good results with 700 turns 0.4mm diameter magnet wire without spacing between turns.

Use "star" grounding. All ground wires go to one point and that point to sheild box.

Thanks about antenna. At antenna with 700 turns how did you make it??? 350L + 350R or one coil 700 turns????
About gnd... i use the star system.

[FrancoItaly]

Hi Geo,
Sorry I don't well understand.

[Geo]

Hi Geo,
Sorry I don't well understand.

Hi Franco.
I understand... problems :frown:

[enjoykin4]

Sorrz for delaz Geo

700 turns left windings

[Geo]

Thank you.
What about bias of TR1???? there is not bias at base of it.
What do you connected there????
At my pcb every resistance between 68k...220k works ok, but without resistance TR1 (BC107) don't work.

[FrancoItaly]

Hi Geo,
TR1 is polarised by positive peak from square wave from VCO, C3 acts as high pass filter, but doesn't work if beta of TR1 is too less. The use of resistance is Ok.
Best Regards

[enjoykin4]

Geo sorry for delay !!


Some small hints......

simple stylys antenna give a wider range of detection. Kind of antialiasing "scalar" signals - while coil antenna give extremely sharp "PIN-POINT". Nice to show exactly point where to dig - if you can mount small Chinese hand laser pointer on it. I was made 3 Franco PLL4046 LRLs for my team. I was using "Franco lrl2.pdf" pcb layout but have some problems with PCB according to intentional or non intentional errors in PCB. For example one of errors - Pin 5 or CD4046 which is inhibit input control sygnal for VCO and SoureFollower must be grounded for proper working or 4046 or if HIGH Z state going into standby mode.

If not a problem upload your PCB artwork and oscillograph envelopes in important test points i will check it up.

In my oppinion the primary stuff in Franco artwork PASSSIVE SCALAR RECEIVER is NOT TO GO INTO SATURATION MODE OF INPUT STAGE (in sense) - some very small ammount of impulse signals from (VCO) Pin 3 and 4 CD4046 should go to primary oscilating circuit which is L1-C11-C10-C9-C8-Tr2 which DOES NOT SUPRESS "SCALAR" signal from your antenna (read like detecting gold or silver coins). Better way is very small amplitude of impulses via T1 than largest amplitude which are some kind of Phase noise for "Scalar" signal from nobble metals. Also, Franco coil antenna is a "strange" THING. Some kind of unbalanced bidirectional dipole. I have a lot ideas about many kind of Scalar antennas like for example Tesla coils, Caduceus Coil, Moebius coil, but need more data and information to analyse. http://www.berkanapath.com/radionics/258/how-to-wind-toroidal-mobius-coils.

For T1 use any NPN transistor with low H21e and usually value biasing resistor - but keep it mind it can work as Franco designed it in C-class only with positive square wave peaks from 4046. Orientational values for h21e T1 =20...80. Not to more.
Unless T1 - T2,T3,T4 must have as high h21e as possible but don not use Darlington pairs - for example MPSA13 or similar.

C13 and C15 shoud be for experiments variable trimmers or any parallel combination of variabile trimmer capacitor and fixed capacitor for fine adjustment. They make a part in transistor amplification stage by introducing of negative feedback in collector-emiter current. Much better variant than tuning with resistors. Ideally where shoud be transistros with metal case (4 th port output) which must be grounded to exactly one point. For electrical simmetry you need geometrical symmetry so placing of components is also very important. Look on the Franco design like VHF or UHF circuit design. Same rules like for high frequencies worth here.

If you can save and uploas envelopes of signals in most important points of Franco desgin. There id a lot of place for modernization and impruvements but not before we "CACTH" the minimum basic rules for "Phennomenon appereance".

I have some ideas for "Scalar Discrimination" but need a lot of further informations and dependencies. The main stuff which I looking for is some cross-correlation function betwen "Scalar" E-waves(+) and vector E-waves(+-) from oscillator. Some kind of quadraure detectors should be designed and tested here for active sniffers. I know how to make active sniffer for Scalar waves - in sense direct scalar conversion but with passive there are a lot of problems like spatial interferation of Scalar waves not only with receiver coil (sniffer) but also with biophysical environment. Scalar waves can change the atomic structure of organic and non-organic materials in some specific ways. Right hand spin and left hand spin scalar transmissions are totaly different stuffs. These fields were also known as Scalar Torsion filelds and leading military labs all over the planet earth working of it - of courcse for military purposes.

ps: I am thinking that behaviour of LRL in direct or reverse mode (rising or falling signals) when you touch antenna is in strong dependent with incoming of Scalar spin waves of wounded antennas. (left-hand or right hand wounded antennas have different behaviour).

reg.enjoykin4

http://www.cae.com/uploadedImages/Image_Slideshows/Corporate/About_CAE/Corporate_Social_Responsibility/environment.jpg?n=7901

[enjoykin4]

Signore Franco
http://www.wedjat.ru/forum/uploads/profile/photo-383.jpg

will be very helpfull to Geo and all of us here at longrangelocators.com if you share with us working oscillogram envelopes of your PLL-LRL and Quarts-LRL and other LRL versons artwork - scalar sniffer designs. And of course some unconventional thoughts and unusual ideas for further improvements.

Best regards :)
Enjoykin4.

[Geo]

Hi Geo,
TR1 is polarised by positive peak from square wave from VCO, C3 acts as high pass filter, but doesn't work if beta of TR1 is too less. The use of resistance is Ok.
Best Regards

Yes, maybe BC108B that i used to has very low beta. Finally i connected a 150k from base to ground.

Regards

[Geo]

Hi Enjoy.. thanks for your tips.
I have attached my pcb at Franco's thread, look here ...http://www.longrangelocators.com/forums/showpost.php?p=147951&postcount=78
Now it seems to working ok (except a small problem that will write later) but if you need oscillograms i can upload.
For T1 i use a small beta transistor (Bc107B) and for other transistors i use BC547C.
For the time it works perfect but i don't know what will happened when will put it inside the shielded box. Some times shielded box "destroy" many things...:angry:

[Geo]

Now lets see another problem.
LRL is not stable.
I adjust it so when i touch the antenna it beeps. After one or 2 minutes it needs readjusting because don't beep with antenna touch. It happens every 1 or 2 minutes.
For power supply i use 2 batteries 9V in series and a 7812 for stabilisation.
All the time that lrl works the voltage is between 12.225 and 12.230 V so believe that the problem is not the supply.
Also the Frequency is stable... changes 1Khz in 5 minutes. C2 is a simple ceramic but since frequency is stable i believe that it is ok.
Your opinion ......

Regards

[FrancoItaly]

Hi All,
enjoykin4 the explanation on the operation of my lrl is very accurate, you're a real expert.
I am always in Switzerland and I have no chance to post oscillograms of my LRL. As regards the stability all the lrl that I have realized are very stable, but sometimes it happened that the LRL was unstable, this is due to the fact that there is an spurious oscillation which overlaps the signal, try this: adjust the P2 slider to the +12V (to reset the signal on the base of TR2) and verifies that the point X there is no signal, You may do this with the scope but often the measure clears the oscillations, a more secure method is measuring the DC output of the pin 2 of CD4046, I recall should be zero. If there is signal at point X must decrease the amplification lowering the value of C13-C15.
Best Regards

[Geo]

Hi Franco.
I have checked it a previous time and here is n't any oscillation, but i don't lose anything to check it again...

Regards

[enjoykin4]

Thank you Signore Franco !!

In fact I am not EE (electronics engineer) - only the ordinary physicist - forever pupil of Mother Nature !! :)

[enjoykin4]

Hello Mr. Geo

Thank you for your pcb layout.

I think the only thing who will happend when you put LRL in shielded box will be the shielding of transversal EM waves and noise.

If you touch antenna and LRL boost signals (make beeps) - he is working in reverse mode.

About spurious oscillations i think they were related to noise caused by environmental noise.
Franco PLL-LRL is very sensitive to presence of human body near L1-C11-C10-C9-C8-Tr2.

If you find again oscillations try to lower 150k resistor from base of Tr1 to ground at 47K-68K.

[FrancoItaly]

Hi Geo,
The instability is also in open air? On the desk of my laboratory the LRL was unstable, but further away about 60cm became stable. I think the reason was the proximity of the wires carrying 220V mains. Also the connection from point X to pin 14 of CD 4046 it may cause oscillations. I think that the better solution is a double side pcb with the bottom side ground connected, also connection point X - pin 14 it must be on bottom side. With only one side pcb it very easy to get spurious oscillations.
Best Regards

[enjoykin4]

Geo some hints about instability !!

Make connection from collector Tr4 (point X) to C18 4,7nF to pin 14 CD4046 use short 50 oms coaxial cable RG50U. Outer shield on ground - inner wire from Tr4 to CD4046 will be enough to stop spurious oscillations. Also if you can put a copper strip over CD4046 - glue it and ground strip at one side. PLL4046 is excellent transmitter at 3 MHz. Ideally it should be placed in grounded metalc case.

If you can upload oscillograms here in your thread. Will be fine for all other people who make this excellent Franco PLL-LRL.

Reg.
Enjoykin4

[Geo]

Hi all.
Today i did n't check it because i was busy.
Maybe tommorow but i am not sure if my lrl oscillates. When it will work properly will try to attach here oscillograms of every stage.

Regards

[Geo]

For Franco....

Maybe next week to cross Italy. Will you be there or in Switzerland???

[Bill512]

19512



accidentally , I found some yellow cable, much like this in Franco's LRL.
So, I expect better performance using this antenna in my Franco PLL :D:D

[FrancoItaly]

Hi Geo,
next Thursday I returned to Italy but only for 2 days for urgent business, unfortunately my wife has a need for help in everyday life, I hope that in the future the situation will improve and that I can devote myself completely to the LRL.
Best Regards

[FrancoItaly]

Hi Bill 512,
yellow is the color of gold...

[Geo]

Hi Geo,
next Thursday I returned to Italy but only for 2 days for urgent business, unfortunately my wife has a need for help in everyday life, I hope that in the future the situation will improve and that I can devote myself completely to the LRL.
Best Regards

Hi Franco.
Next Thursday (28/1) i will be (90%) at Italy near to Parma... Piacenza....
Do you have any idea or time!!!:lol:

Regards:)

[Geo]

19512



accidentally , I found some yellow cable, much like this in Franco's LRL.
So, I expect better performance using this antenna in my Franco PLL :D:D

Bill, did you check it??

[Geo]

Geo some hints about instability !!

Make connection from collector Tr4 (point X) to C18 4,7nF to pin 14 CD4046 use short 50 oms coaxial cable RG50U. Outer shield on ground - inner wire from Tr4 to CD4046 will be enough to stop spurious oscillations. Also if you can put a copper strip over CD4046 - glue it and ground strip at one side. PLL4046 is excellent transmitter at 3 MHz. Ideally it should be placed in grounded metalc case.

If you can upload oscillograms here in your thread. Will be fine for all other people who make this excellent Franco PLL-LRL.

Reg.
Enjoykin4

Hi.
Today i found a little free time to check the lrl.
There are oscillations between 12 and 16Mhz. I put out from sockets the 4046 and358, and disconnected the L. When i cut the track from TR4 to C18 the oscilations stoped. After it i soldered again the L and oscillations began now at 780 Khz. If will replace C13 and C15 from 560pF with 100 pF there is n't any change.
I have let it for tommorow with (maybe) more free time.

Regards

[enjoykin4]

Signore Geo

only one thing come to my mind - amplifier stage together with 4046 make oscillations - and cause for this case is bad board layout design. If you will try new one design for Signore Franco 4046-LRL use original footprins from these pictures.

http://i10.pixs.ru/storage/9/6/2/Immagine20_6837639_20327962.jpg

http://i10.pixs.ru/storage/9/6/3/Immagine20_8526257_20327963.jpg

ps: Keep in mind that human body great affect on signal(s).

Reg.
Enjoykin4 :)

[enjoykin4]

Signore Franco,

Do you like to share with Signore Geo and all of us here on forum - step by step adjusting and trimming procedure of your 4046 PLL-RLR version ( including oscillograph and test field adjustment ?

Thanks in advance !!
Reg.Enjoykin

The GOLDEN SUN JARILO (name of our star) !! :)

http://img11.nnm.me/4/a/e/d/2/258c8c90da03ce11885a3054fba.jpg

[Geo]

Signore Geo

only one thing come to my mind - amplifier stage together with 4046 make oscillations - and cause for this case is bad board layout design. If you will try new one design for Signore Franco 4046-LRL use original footprins from these pictures.

http://i10.pixs.ru/storage/9/6/2/Immagine20_6837639_20327962.jpg

http://i10.pixs.ru/storage/9/6/3/Immagine20_8526257_20327963.jpg

ps: Keep in mind that human body great affect on signal(s).

Reg.
Enjoykin4 :)


Hi Enjoy..
I am afraid also that i made bad pcb design, so i will try a new one.
I am not sure if it is better to make it with double side pcb and the component side to be shielding or it will work as small capacitances and will create new oscillations.
Franco says that the xtal version is better and more simple but i want to try the PLL version.

Regards

[FrancoItaly]

Hi All,
In my lab there is a lot of confusion and I have realized more than 10 copies of my LRL plus many other types and do not have the design of PCB, for many LRL I modified an existing PCB, I also do the pcb by hand without the help of PC further I am in Switzerland. As I said it's better a double-sided PCB, although in the case it posted it is a single-sided PCB. And no doubt it's a high frequency realization with high gain which can lead to spurious oscillations.
Best Regards

[FrancoItaly]

Hi Geo,
Next Thursday (28/1) surely I'm in Switzerland and Parma or Piacenza are not near my home (in Switzerland), I think about 500Km. I know Imola where there is a MD dealer.
Best Regards

[enjoykin4]

Signore Franco how to adjust your PLL 4046 passive scalar sniffer ??

I have already made 3 phantoms with your original pcb layout ( Xtal versions) and they work excellent).

Meanwhile i was made 3 PLL with bad Nicolas pcb (4 main mistakes have orrected) but very bad results. These 3 pcb are the worst pcb made in my life.

So Signore Franco step 1 is:

1. VCO 4046 at 3MHz {pin 3 and 4}. Pont 9 4046 about 11,4V. Maybe the value of c3 for impulse component {3n3} is too high ?
2. Collector Tr4 {joint point of R16-R17} output of amplifier stage 6Vpp (ac signal - without gold target signal).
3. 4046 phase comparator output -> pin 2 {pointX} DC 6V.

Any further advices and ideas ??

ps: O have idea to make reference sugnal with Gennadiy Nikolaev "Siberian Colia" scalar generator and many ideas about different scalar antennas but need a time to make it all.
Help or not in any case Thank you signore Franco for reveal the SCALAR PHENOMENON of GOLD and SILVER !!

Reg.
Enjoykin4

[Geo]

Hi Geo,
Next Thursday (28/1) surely I'm in Switzerland and Parma or Piacenza are not near my home (in Switzerland), I think about 500Km. I know Imola where there is a MD dealer.
Best Regards


Sorry Franco, i understood wrong when you wrote about "Next thursday".
Maybe another time, who knows?????

Regards:)

[Geo]

Hi all.
I found the problem with oscillations. A bad decoupling . I put one capacitor near to emmiter of TR2 and gnd (big distance between emmiter and point(-) of power suply)and now all seems ok. Now i must put the LM358 in socket and check the lrl again.

[enjoykin4]

Geo if not a problem make a oscillogram snapshots at4046 and lm 358.

[Geo]

Will try it but maybe not today.

[FrancoItaly]

Hi enjoykin4,
The better think is if CD4046 doesn't work at max frequency ( 3Mhz and more than 11V at pin 9) with these values, the IC consumes too much power.
If the stage TR1 creates problems I think we can eliminate C3, TR1 and P2 and connect pin 4 (VCO out) with C8 (the same with quartz version). You may need only change C8/C9 and verify that at collector TR4 there is about 2-3V (AC signal) although the CD4046 also works 0.5V AC.
It's possible that the lrl works in reverse mode. The phase comparator output (pin 2) it's Ok in the range 1-8V but may be impossible tuning by only P3, if the case it's usefull connect a 100K resistor from inverting pin of LM358A to +12V or ground as the case.

Best Regards

[Geo]

Signore Franco how to adjust your PLL 4046 passive scalar sniffer ??

I have already made 3 phantoms with your original pcb layout ( Xtal versions) and they work excellent).

Meanwhile i was made 3 PLL with bad Nicolas pcb (4 main mistakes have orrected) but very bad results. These 3 pcb are the worst pcb made in my life.

So Signore Franco step 1 is:

1. VCO 4046 at 3MHz {pin 3 and 4}. Pont 9 4046 about 11,4V. Maybe the value of c3 for impulse component {3n3} is too high ?
2. Collector Tr4 {joint point of R16-R17} output of amplifier stage 6Vpp (ac signal - without gold target signal).
3. 4046 phase comparator output -> pin 2 {pointX} DC 6V.

Any further advices and ideas ??

ps: O have idea to make reference sugnal with Gennadiy Nikolaev "Siberian Colia" scalar generator and many ideas about different scalar antennas but need a time to make it all.
Help or not in any case Thank you signore Franco for reveal the SCALAR PHENOMENON of GOLD and SILVER !!

Reg.
Enjoykin4

At my lrl at pin9 there is signal 11.6v p-p. Between pin9 and c3 i connected a trimer 10k and adjusted it so at c3 to have 900mv p-p. Now it seems works very good but i have a mysterious problem. If pcb is out of shielding box then when i touch the antenna the led turns on. If pcb is inside the shielding box then if i touch the antenna and the led is on, it turns off. With other words it works reverse!!!.
Who is the right???

Regards

[FrancoItaly]

Hi Geo,
Correct operation is pcb inside the shielding box and when you touch the antenna and the LED is on, it turns off. If the led is off with target it must go on. I think it is necessary to single screen PC, but not the whole box, as even with the shield covering the box bringing the hand to the front panel there is a signal change. The best thing is to use a long-handled, 25-30 cm.

Best Regards

[Geo]

Hi Franco.

So my lrl now is correct. After some days will try it at my field test because now we have snow.


Regards

[enjoykin4]

At my lrl at pin9 there is signal 11.6v p-p. Between pin9 and c3 i connected a trimer 10k and adjusted it so at c3 to have 900mv p-p. Now it seems works very good but i have a mysterious problem. If pcb is out of shielding box then when i touch the antenna the led turns on. If pcb is inside the shielding box then if i touch the antenna and the led is on, it turns off. With other words it works reverse!!!.
Who is the right???

Regards


Hi Geo

Good news from you!. Tell me more how your lrl work and show us your oscillograf snapshots (envelopes) in different test points.

My the question: at which side of C3 you have connected a trimer 10k - side to base of T1 or side to Pin (3 and 4 ) ?

900 mVpp - is probably too high amplitude for "scalar" mixer Tr2-L1-C11-C10. Big VCO amplitde can fully suppress "Gold Scalar signals" - (oversaturate gold and silver signals).

Reg.
Enjoykin4

[enjoykin4]

Hi Signore Franco

I think i have a probelms with this Nicolas PLL4046 pcb. It is WORST DESIGNED PCB i hav seen in my life. I have not checked this pcb before i made it so now i have a problems adjusting PLL4046 lrl.

http://i10.pixs.ru/storage/5/9/5/francolrl2_6979600_20367595.jpg

What do you think about variabile attenuator at VCO output (pin4) and comparator input (pin3) for very tiny trimming output levels ??

I have plans to insert additional capaitor C8' (1pf) - between C8 (1pf) and C9 (1pf) to lower equivalent serail capacitance bellow 1pf.

And for the end to improve output signals from phase amplifier LM 358 (IC2A) and avoid capacitive loads (parasitic and input capacitances ) of VU metar input (I have connected at output of phase amplifier) and input capacitances of IC2B (signal comparator and piezo driver) - to make phase amplifier (IC2A) work in safe stable area (avoid self oscillations) - i hava plan to add small resistor 100-150 oms at output of IC2A (need to be calculated).

Also shielding PLL CD4046 in faraday cage will great help avoid spurious interference and improve noise suppression and self oscillations of amplifier stage Tr2-Tr3-Tr4 - like is in Geo case.


ps: My main goal for me is making fully working PLL4046 LRL - working stable and detect signals without falses like is in your case (you ctach silver coins at 3 m distance and 0,25m depth with this version of LRL).

After these conditions i can try design small scalar antennas (as you know - the antenna is a best amplifier) and improve input and mixer stages. Also i alrady have some ideas about "scalar discrimination" of particular golden ad silver targets (as a most interesting for me).

Think about the differential configuration of input stage and fully balanced "scalar mixer stage".

It is all for now. Will be very interesting and helpfull to many people if there are oscillograf snapshots of full adjusted and working PLL4046 LRL.

In any case thanks for your informative replies and advices.

Many regards from Russia.
With respect Enjoykin4.

[Geo]

Hi Geo

Good news from you!. Tell me more how your lrl work and show us your oscillograf snapshots (envelopes) in different test points.

My the question: at which side of C3 you have connected a trimer 10k - side to base of T1 or side to Pin (3 and 4 ) ?

900 mVpp - is probably too high amplitude for "scalar" mixer Tr2-L1-C11-C10. Big VCO amplitde can fully suppress "Gold Scalar signals" - (oversaturate gold and silver signals).

Reg.
Enjoykin4

Hi Enjoy.
About trimmer it is connecting at side of 4046 (pin 3@4).
About oscillographs... there are some problems with the quality of them because here are many scattered signals from 4046 and oscillographs are not clear at every point.
I will try to take phot of oscillographs at Pin2, Pin3 and pin14 of 4046. Signal at base of TR2 is not clear and it's very low so can't see it clear.


Regards

[FrancoItaly]

Hi enjoykin4,
Watch the post # 47 of this thread, you've tried to make this change?
Best Regards

[enjoykin4]

Hi Signore Franco

I wil try changes from your post # 47 !! :)

Signore GEO - thanks for your advices and ideas. :)

Still snowing in Greece ??

Best regards both
Enjoykin4

[enjoykin4]

Hi abdou2014


My advice to you is - not make bad Nicolas PCB but fully working GEO PLL4046 LRL PCB.
The best veaiant of PCB is when you have one side at ground and other side use "guard rings" for most sensitive tracks for example inputs of operational amplifiers, VCO outputs, clock and data ports lines etc. But keep in mind earthing must be done in one point with high conducting conductor.

Also earth yourself while searching - using long metalic handle also grounded via you to earth.

For PLL4046 LRL modifications follow Signore Franco posts. He has made 10 LRL's till now - and i don't like to make modifications of other people designs. My principle is to make my own. Most important is to build one working version, catch "Scalar gold phenomenon" and make much more experiments on a real field.

I wish you luck !! :)

Reg.
Enjoykin4

[Bill512]

Bill, did you check it??

not yet George, but I think this antenna (80 turns) is more sensitive than the 35 turns antenna.
The reference for sensitivity, is the whip (stylus) antenna , but this does not mean that the "stylus" is always the choice.
Besides sensitivity, there are some other properties ,(varying among antenna types), which are sometimes more favorable.

[FrancoItaly]

The advantage of the stylus antenna is that by stretching increases the sensitivity, with a length of 30cm sensitivity it is comparable with the coil antenna.

[Geo]

I attach some oscillographs from my lrl.
1. at pin3.4
2. after the trimmer and before the C3
3. at pin2 (4046)
4.collector of Tr4.

[Geo]

Look the waveorm No3. I don't understand why is so....:nerd:
This is one of the reasons that i prefer rhe Xtal version.
When will finish with field tests will open a new thread with xtal version because it works fine and the waveforms are perfect (except the display stages).

:)

[Geo]

not yet George, but I think this antenna (80 turns) is more sensitive than the 35 turns antenna.
The reference for sensitivity, is the whip (stylus) antenna , but this does not mean that the "stylus" is always the choice.
Besides sensitivity, there are some other properties ,(varying among antenna types), which are sometimes more favorable.

ok Billy, inform me!!!:cool:

[enjoykin4]

Mr. Geo thank you for your OWON oscillograms !! :)

I was currently doing modifications according to Signore Franco post #47.

Have eliminated C3, TR1 (BC170A) and P2(precision trimmer 1K 25turns) and have connected pin 4 (VCO out) and 3 directly to C8 (1pF) - but the first results are zero - not get correct operation of LRL when i have touch the antenna. Currently working is at this way - when i touch the antenna: If the LED is on stay on - if LED is off stay off.

I suspect on big ammount of VCO signal going through C8 (1pf) and C9 (1pf) to mixer stage.

I will do some experiments and draw oscillograms from my PLL4046 LRL

Thanks for cooperation. :)
Regards Enjoykin4

[FrancoItaly]

Hi All,
To the collector of TR 4 there is a distorted waveform, the signal at the base of TR2 is too large, or there is too much amplification.
Best Regards

[enjoykin4]

Thank you Signore Franco !!

What is a best way in your oppinion to precise regulate VCO output voltage from max to 0 - which going directly from pin (3,4 CD4046) to coupling capacitor C8(1pf)-C9(1pf) in my case its U= 6.4Vpp , F= 1.8MHz.

Keep experimenting further !! :)

Best Regards
Enjoykin4

[FrancoItaly]

Hi enjoykin4,
You have to control the amplitude of the signal at the collector of TR4, it must be undistorted, if so add in series to a capacitor C8 of 1pF or less, or remove C8 and C9 and weld a piece of wire on the basis of TR2 (about 10cm) , it acts as an antenna, so try the position where there is a good signal on the collector of TR4.

Best Regards

[enjoykin4]

Thank you Signore Franco !!

I will try tonight - but the adjusting feedback with a piece of wire is extremely hard and complicated. For full scale signal 0-6Vdc output at collector T4 (pointX) I need to find correct value for capacitance in femtofarads.

in any case thank you for your advices and good wishes.

Tell me does all oscillograms which Geo has posted are correct except distorted waveform at collector Tr4 (last snapshot) ?

with respect
Enjoykin4

[Geo]

Another problem is that 4046 emmits a very strong signal that it is very difficault to isolate it from input of Tr2.

Franco, thanks:)

[FrancoItaly]

Hi enjoykin4 and Geo,
Other oscillograms are correct. I have build 2 4046 lrls with no problems, but I must admit that it is critical amplification of 3 stages (TR2-TR3-TR4). If is too much we may have auto-oscillations, if it's too little gain the lrl doesn't work. The quartz lrl is better to build because the signal from oscillator is few volts and it's a sine curve, a square wave has a lot of armonics. You can try to shielding the 4046 and to use a passive low pass filter at pin3-4, type resistance/capacitance.

Best Regards

[enjoykin4]

Hi signore FrancoItaly and Geo

New Sunny day - New PCB layout for FRANCO-PLL4046-LRL. :)


Geo PCB layout redesigned by Enjoykin4. (Something from UHF design -massive ground coupling with guard rings enclosed every soldering point.
http://i10.pixs.ru/storage/4/5/2/DSC2467JPG_6072528_20446452.jpg

http://i9.pixs.ru/storage/4/5/6/DSC2468JPG_2146988_20446456.jpg


PS:Signore Franco and Geo

Any info about distances of possible detected golden and silver targets with yours PLL4046 LRLs on real fields ??
From 0 meters up to xxxx meters ? :)

Best Regards
Enjoykin4

[FrancoItaly]

Hi enjoykin4,
Very good work for your pcb, regarding the distances on real field I can not say more than what I said at the beginning of the thread, the performance of quartz and 4046 lrl are similar, in my test field 5 silver coin (if I remenber well) at about 2.5m. Unfortunately, it is more than a year since I've been in a real field.

Best Regards

[enjoykin4]

Hi FrancoItaly !! :)

Signore Franco if you have some spare time why don't you start new thread - new project - Differential frontend LRL by FrancoItaly - try boost distances and sensitivity on a real field ? We can talk about many different concepts and designs !! My idea is simple - use differential input configuaration with two antennas in antiphase (180 degree shift ) or use quadrature concept - four antennas (plates) in quadrature phase (90 degree shift) - every with own sinus oscillator adjusted separately and two independent LF modulators with variabile attenuators at outputs.

What do you think about som kind of "GOLD signal" envelope modulation with LF oscillator ?? Similar concept like in many Mineoro designs ?

Maybe we need find some particular harmonics of Gold irradiation process by planetary Scalar emmision ??

Best Regards
Enjoykin4

http://i.obozrevatel.ua/8/804391/gallery/126682_image_large.jpg

[Geo]

Hi.
I just returned from Italy and hope soon to make a real test to PLL version and to Xtal version.
After it will give more attention to xtal version because it works better, has clear oscillographs and no oscillations.

Regards:)

[FrancoItaly]

Hi All,
It is very easy to add the TR5 stage (quartz version) to 4046 lrl, in this way it is possible to compare phase and amplitude changes, I did this to try to get some sort of discrimination, but it was not possible to prove it on the field with different types of metals. It is also useful to be able to measure the DC signal for the tuning of the LRL.
Regards

[Treasureshunter]

Hi my friend
Sorry .i don,t speak english. Very nice
You build wich pcb?
Please give here pictures for your kits
I need pcb and place mr franco lrl
Ver 4046
Tanck,s

[Treasureshunter]

Mr reza vir com on here???!!!....
He,s from iran .and me too
Mr reza can help me?

[teo]

For all I also decided to do the LRL franco 4046 I have finished construction and I want to do a correct calibration with the help I have activated the device and measure the voltage at 4046 at pin2 has 4.000νDc and when it touches the antenna it drops to 3,300 n (750 mv difference and measures a voltage of 0.900V AC in the collector of TR4 I measured a voltage of 1.224DC and 0.238νAC or the frequency is 3.186MHZ of best wishes in all

[FrancoItaly]

For all I also decided to do the LRL franco 4046 I have finished construction and I want to do a correct calibration with the help I have activated the device and measure the voltage at 4046 at pin2 has 4.000νDc and when it touches the antenna it drops to 3,300 n (750 mv difference and measures a voltage of 0.900V AC in the collector of TR4 I measured a voltage of 1.224DC and 0.238νAC or the frequency is 3.186MHZ of best wishes in all

For my experience the VCO frequency is better no more than 2.8Mhz (if more CD4046 absorbs too much power) and for TR4 collector is better in the range 4 - 6V (try for R14 = 1.2M and/or for R17 = 3.9K or 3.3K).Remember that the oscilloscope greatly influences the sensor stage and the measurements are not very reliable.

[teo]

For all of you thank franco for the help I will try and put the best wishes

[teo]

For all of you franco the first measurements I made is wrong or the measurements I made now without changing the R14 and R17 are at 4046 pin2 2.900νDC and when it touches the antenna 2.600ν difference 300mv and 0.570νAC in the collector TR4 has a voltage of 4,300dDC and when touching the antenna 4.220 V difference 80mv voltage AC 0v the london is active does not turn off when it touches the antenna a help of the best wishes

[FrancoItaly]

For all of you franco the first measurements I made is wrong or the measurements I made now without changing the R14 and R17 are at 4046 pin2 2.900νDC and when it touches the antenna 2.600ν difference 300mv and 0.570νAC in the collector TR4 has a voltage of 4,300dDC and when touching the antenna 4.220 V difference 80mv voltage AC 0v the london is active does not turn off when it touches the antenna a help of the best wishes

I don't understand "the london is active does not turn off". The CD4046 version is not the same as quartz version, it's more difficult to tune because there is not a DC stage that it's also usefull for tuning. Anyway if you have a 300 mV difference when you touch the antenna I think that the sensor stage is ok.

[teo]

For everyone on franco I'm sorry for the bad translation where says london is LED when it touches the antenna is not deactivated if you reduce the gain R6 220kΩ will better good wishes

[FrancoItaly]

For everyone on franco I'm sorry for the bad translation where says london is LED when it touches the antenna is not deactivated if you reduce the gain R6 220kΩ will better good wishes

Touching the antenna is an empirical test to check if the sensor stage amplifies correctly, but the real test is on the field with buried metals. The correct gain is just below the point where the compass effect occurs.

[teo]

For your franco thanks for the help i have made new setup and i want your opinion pin2 at 4046 i have 3,500dDC and when i touch the antenna i have 3,150 difference 250 mlv and TR4 3,200v dc and 1,200 vAC R17 i put 12kΩ is ok now

[FrancoItaly]

For your franco thanks for the help i have made new setup and i want your opinion pin2 at 4046 i have 3,500dDC and when i touch the antenna i have 3,150 difference 250 mlv and TR4 3,200v dc and 1,200 vAC R17 i put 12kΩ is ok now

Yes I think it's ok.

[teo]

Thank you very much franco the best wishes

[mehdighzv]

Walkman