Why cant metal detectors have longer ranges like 100 meters or higher?

[leviterande]

Hi, everyone, I have a question. metal detectors basically work by inducing a current into a non ferro conductor, the back emf is captured by the receiving coil and thus you have a signal. What I am wondering is why is the metal detector only capable of detecting for a range of only a few feet? The metal detector is similar to any radio Tx/rx.

For example, if you have a strong magnetic pulse train from your detector, and there happens to be a a conductor somewhere around half a mile or just 100 meters etc.. out from you,. it is bound that there will be a current induced in that distant conductor which in turn of course creates a magnetic field which is also spreading out and should reach the detector receiver? Why are these common detectors limited by a few feet?

My guess: making an induced current in a distant conductor is easy. But, perhaps receiving the signal of the induced current from the distant conductor is very hard? because the signal is very low? but really in our modern era of electronics, all signals can be detected?
please enlighten me

thanks
best regards
levi karl

[FrancoItaly]

Metal detectors work with magnetic fields not with electromagnetic fields, the search coil isn't an antenna.

Best regards

[leviterande]

Metal detectors work with magnetic fields not with electromagnetic fields, the search coil isn't an antenna.

Best regards


Hi and thank you for the reply. But I am not sure I understand, because my understanding is that magnetic field is just a current or motion of charged particles. Any magnetic field associated with a copper winding comes from a current of conduction electrons. so why isnt a signal detected further by few feet from metal detectors?


Regards
Karl

[FrancoItaly]

The propagation of a magnetic field decreases with the inverse square of the distance while the electromagnetic radiation (not near field) decreases linearly with the inverse of the distance, and then goes much further than a magnetic field, at the same power.

Best Regards

[Mike(Mont)]

I guess you are new to this forum. MFD's (Molecular Frequency Discriminators) have been finding gold for decades. People who try to tell you they don't work, well maybe they just aren't as intelligent as they think. Do some reading on Konstantin Meyl and scalar waves. There are some you-tube videos.

[leviterande]

The propagation of a magnetic field decreases with the inverse square of the distance while the electromagnetic radiation (not near field) decreases linearly with the inverse of the distance, and then goes much further than a magnetic field, at the same power.

Best Regards

Alright, thanks, I think I see, so in order to get it working the way I thought it was working is basically a ground penetrating radar. Say you have a radar with medium penetration depth of 1meter, i.e. a frequency of around 300mhz. Rocks and most dielectric which is the ground would only reflect a tiny part of the radio waves. If say there is a piece of a good conductor at say 10cm depth it will reflect more than the insulators around it and thus a signature should be seen where the conductor hides.

I know these two problems however:

A-We could debunk this idea because the object itself needs to be at least 1 meter in size in order to reflect the radio energy. (But still a portion of the radio energy gets reflected even if the wavelength is bigger than the object).

B-We could also claim that even though small conductors could be distinguished and detected successfully among all the insulating earth media, we would be out of luck trying to figure out what kind of conductor it is. Why? because the reflection ability (and thus what conductor it is) of the conductor would be NEAR IMPOSSIBLE to conclude from the overwhelming noise or ambient radio reflection of the insulating earth media and because a detected strong reflection on your receiver cant differentiate between a big conductor of poor relfectivity and conductivity or a small conductor with superior conductivity and reflectivity.

Am I thinking in the right direction?

All ideas thoughts welcome. I am just seeing if I can find any possibility through sound established principles. I am aware of wallet hunters.

[Mike(Mont)]

Study Meyl and the longitudinal waves. This is the magnetic component of the wave and is about 1/6 of a wavelength.

[Mike(Mont)]

The skeptics want you to think all LRL's are wallet miners. If you subscribe to that flawed logic then you are being suckered by the skeptics (mostly people who make their living off the metal detector industry). They have motive.

Inflated prices are one thing. A few of the manufacturers actually spend thousands of hours developing the LRL's. And then there are a few who feel like they can steal that info and without any development costs charge ten times more than the thing is worth. If you want info, contact Dell Winders in Haines City, FL. He's the guy who figured out a set of L-rods can be used in place of the electronic receiver. The original MFD's did not use L-rods--they used an electronic receiver.

[leviterande]

The skeptics want you to think all LRL's are wallet miners. If you subscribe to that flawed logic then you are being suckered by the skeptics (mostly people who make their living off the metal detector industry). They have motive.

Inflated prices are one thing. A few of the manufacturers actually spend thousands of hours developing the LRL's. And then there are a few who feel like they can steal that info and without any development costs charge ten times more than the thing is worth. If you want info, contact Dell Winders in Haines City, FL. He's the guy who figured out a set of L-rods can be used in place of the electronic receiver. The original MFD's did not use L-rods--they used an electronic receiver.

Hi Mike, I am open to everything as I always was , however I read a lot too and both you and I agree that there is a lot of baloney out here. perhaps not 100% of it.. I read about Dell and saw his writings here and elsewhere. At any rate, have you had success with MFDs?
thanks

[Mike(Mont)]

I guess there is kind of a double whammy with MFD's. You have the solar magnetic interference and you have the L-rods. Both these can add significant "play" sort of like loose steering on a vehicle.

Whatever the case, if you can't use the rods you won't get too far. I tell people to learn some form of meditation, but this has fallen on deaf ears. "Don't need that.", "Don't have time.", etc., etc.

You'd do well to avoid the rabidly biased naysayers unless you are trying to convince yourself they "can't possibly work". I never understood why anyone would believe someone who can't use the L-rods.

[Qiaozhi]

What I am wondering is why is the metal detector only capable of detecting for a range of only a few feet? The metal detector is similar to any radio Tx/rx.
A metal detector coil is similar to a loosely coupled transformer, and a metal target that gets close to the coil will couple some of the TX energy into the RX coil. In effect, the metal target is acting like the core of the transformer. The main reason why a detector is restricted to a few feet in detection distance is because reactive effects cause the near field energy to fall off as a function of 1/d^3. Eddy currents generated in the target will then create their own magnetic field (Lenz's Law) and the return signal is subject to a 1/64 response.

If you haven't already read it, I would suggest you get a copy of "Inside the METAL DETECTOR" -> http://www.geotech1.com/forums/content.php?125-inside-the-metal-detector

And ... I wouldn't waste any time with L-rods or MFDs.

[leviterande]

And ... I wouldn't waste any time with L-rods or MFDs.

Exactly. And thanks for your reply.
The question perhaps doesnt have to do with metal detectors . so let me try to make an example
I have a neodymium magnet that can induce very clearly a field at any conductor hanging from a thread across the room.-the conductor moves that is- My room is about 25ft. So seemingly the first step is established into simulating a distance object. The next step is receiving the information which could be the tricky part. I may have a mental block but it looks like there can be only two solving approaches for the next step:

A-The new of course much weaker magnetic field induced in the distant conductor may be too weak for me to still detect it at the 25ft distance ? perhaps a super sensitive magnetometer could help but I understand that the field would be very low.

B-(the better solution?) Detecting by receiving the electromagnetic wave with an antenna. I.e, after we have excited our little conductor from a distance with our strong magnetic pulse train of a specific frequency from the tx, current is induced in the distant conductor at the same frequency and now we receive the weak electromagnetic wave of the same frequency emanating from the conductor. I am really not sure if my point is clear but I would love why this cant work ?
thanks

[WM6]

The skeptics want you to think all LRL's are wallet miners. If you subscribe to that flawed logic then you are being suckered by the skeptics (mostly people who make their living off the metal detector industry). They have motive.

Inflated prices are one thing. A few of the manufacturers actually spend thousands of hours developing the LRL's. And then there are a few who feel like they can steal that info and without any development costs charge ten times more than the thing is worth. If you want info, contact Dell Winders in Haines City, FL. He's the guy who figured out a set of L-rods can be used in place of the electronic receiver. The original MFD's did not use L-rods--they used an electronic receiver.

There was right answer to this already two millenia ago:

http://www.mountainman.com.au/kural/kural029.htm

[Mike(Mont)]

Did you look at the Meyl videos? He has a website with some other info on it. You see the longitudinal waves and how the flux lines "bundle" to the receiver because it is in resonance. There is little loss of energy. Of course this is totally different from the transverse wave that electrical engineers wrongly apply their principles. I have to assume they do not have a clue on this although I have suggested many times that they know and are hiding it. The thousands of hours the skeptics ave spent trying to convince people that the MFD's can't possibly work you gotta believe they have motive here.

[Mike(Mont)]

When I say that some form of meditation is essential to any L-rod work, most people run away. I'll say it again, you have to quiet the mind to be able to sense the subtle energies that create the "body response". I learned with a device that had a skin galvanometer hooked up to it. I learned to sense the body response. No doubt many of the failed L-rod wannabe's are not able to achieve this just because they think they are superior, think they know more. I call it the Natural Selection process.

[WM6]

Here some nice extremely long range design.

http://www.quantumbalancing.com/vortex_antenna.htm

[Mike(Mont)]

I've worked with many different types of locators over the years. I like the frequency generators but they don't always work. When Dell Winders and Vernon Rose were working on the MFD's with the electronic receiver, they learned so much about the signal lines and how the interference affects things. It's a lot more difficult to see what is going on with only a set of L-rods to work with.

[Qiaozhi]

Exactly. And thanks for your reply.
The question perhaps doesnt have to do with metal detectors . so let me try to make an example
I have a neodymium magnet that can induce very clearly a field at any conductor hanging from a thread across the room.-the conductor moves that is- My room is about 25ft. So seemingly the first step is established into simulating a distance object. The next step is receiving the information which could be the tricky part. I may have a mental block but it looks like there can be only two solving approaches for the next step:

A-The new of course much weaker magnetic field induced in the distant conductor may be too weak for me to still detect it at the 25ft distance ? perhaps a super sensitive magnetometer could help but I understand that the field would be very low.

B-(the better solution?) Detecting by receiving the electromagnetic wave with an antenna. I.e, after we have excited our little conductor from a distance with our strong magnetic pulse train of a specific frequency from the tx, current is induced in the distant conductor at the same frequency and now we receive the weak electromagnetic wave of the same frequency emanating from the conductor. I am really not sure if my point is clear but I would love why this cant work ?
thanks
If you build a simple Colpitts oscillator (such as found in some Tesoro metal detectors) and then build a separate receiver; you'll find that you can receive the TX signal from several metres away. However, this situation is not the same as trying to receive the weak [eddy current] signal from a metal target. Also, it is a fallacy to call a metal detector coil an antenna.

[Qiaozhi]

When Dell Winders and Vernon Rose were working on the MFD's with the electronic receiver, they learned so much about the signal lines and how the interference affects things.
It's just a shame that signal lines are the simply the product of an overactive imagination.

[Mike(Mont)]

I compare it to learning to play golf. Many people do not have the patience. And I always get a chuckle when someone who can't use a set of L-rods tries to tell others they can't possibly work. That's the Natural Selection process in action.

[Mike(Mont)]

Again, I say watch the Meyl videos and read some of his website. maybe you will learn something. Study the near field. If you are using 300MHz, well the near field is not too far, maybe inches. The frequencies used in the MFD are in some cases less than 100Hz, but even at 5KHz it's a few miles. Not saying an MFD can pick up a target at that distance, but maybe if the target is a large vein.

[Mike(Mont)]

Some guy from MIT was talking about the Witricity which is very similar to what Meyl is doing. He said using the resonance is almost a million times more efficient compared to induction (like a transformer).

Yeah, the biased don't want to discuss this one.

[J_Player]

Some guy from MIT was talking about the Witricity which is very similar to what Meyl is doing. He said using the resonance is almost a million times more efficient compared to induction (like a transformer).

Yeah, the biased don't want to discuss this one.

Some guy from the LRL forum leaked out his secret for how to find things without using rods.... maybe not a million times more efficient, but lots of fun for a pastime....

http://www.longrangelocators.com/forums/showpost.php?p=102623&postcount=214

"I can find a signal line without rods. I hold my arms out from my sides and relax my wrists so my hands point down somewhat. I call it the scarecrow stance. Then I walk around the transmitter (arms parallel to signal line) until I feel the psychic electricity. I can't pinpoint the target with this method, just the signal line. I use the Revelation Locator Rod. There is no other rod that has as low stiction. It has an extremely low start-up torque threshold that borders on the infinite. Of course it's not, but it's imperceptible".

Best Wishes, :)
J_P

[leviterande]

Some guy from the LRL forum leaked out his secret for how to find things without using rods.... maybe not a million times more efficient, but lots of fun for a pastime....

http://www.longrangelocators.com/forums/showpost.php?p=102623&postcount=214

"I can find a signal line without rods. I hold my arms out from my sides and relax my wrists so my hands point down somewhat. I call it the scarecrow stance. Then I walk around the transmitter (arms parallel to signal line) until I feel the psychic electricity. I can't pinpoint the target with this method, just the signal line. I use the Revelation Locator Rod. There is no other rod that has as low stiction. It has an extremely low start-up torque threshold that borders on the infinite. Of course it's not, but it's imperceptible".

Best Wishes, :)
J_P


J.P ,
After a healthy amount of reading of your posts, others´ and this and other sites, am I correct to sadly see that there is not a single working machine/concept/idea so far ?

Anyway I am thinking about using metal detectors but with bigger coils to increase the range to some meters at least and yes I know the sensitivity is going down but I will be working in really remote areas, no houses or power lines so hopefully any big non ferro metallic conductor is the point of interest.

My question is this: can I just install a home made big coil to one of the metal detectors? or is there special electronics or a limit to how big a coil can be?

[J_Player]

J.P ,
After a healthy amount of reading of your posts, others´ and this and other sites, am I correct to sadly see that there is not a single working machine/concept/idea so far ?

Anyway I am thinking about using metal detectors but with bigger coils to increase the range to some meters at least and yes I know the sensitivity is going down but I will be working in really remote areas, no houses or power lines so hopefully any big non ferro metallic conductor is the point of interest.

My question is this: can I just install a home made big coil to one of the metal detectors? or is there special electronics or a limit to how big a coil can be?
Hi leviterande,
You are correct to see not a single working machine/concept/idea. You do not see them because the only working LRLs that are viewable are experimental LRLs which cannot be relied on to give positive repeatable results like metal detectors do. As an example, there are the Morgan PDK clone mods of the Alonso Pistol detector. We also have a number of other allegedly working LRLs shown in these forums such as the swinging rod thingies that Mike (Mont) assures you will work. But most of these only work when skeptical people are not watching them work. With that said, there is still something to the concept of long range detection of metals that have been buried a long time. Gold, silver, copper and other metals do corrode after being buried long enough. The corrosion is not much for gold, but enough to cause interactions that can be measured as tiny variations in electronic activity that would normally occur in the vicinity if the metals were not buried. The mechanics of this process is complicated, and would take several pages to explain the basics. But the bottom line is even noble metals can become detectable from a distance if they are buried in the ground for long enough and the soil conditions are favorable.

Is there not a single working LRL?
LRL manufacturers know something is happening with long-time buried metals to make them detectable, but they don't know the full mechanics and physics involved, so they manufacture equipment that might work in some circumstances, but usually fails to work with any kind of reliability. Thus, we see a lot of LRL owners who are disappointed with the performance of their expensive investments. Then we have some manufacturers like OKM and others who manufacture completely fraudulent equipment that does not do what they say it does, as proven by Morgan, when he visited the factory and found their best locator could not find a treasure he buried in shallow dirt outside their factory. One of their employees even advised him he would be wiser to spend his money on a used Mercedes Benz instead of their locator. Unfortunately, there are a lot of LRL manufacturers who produce this kind of crappy fake LRL.
But there are real long range locators that do really find long time buried metals such as gold, silver, copper, bronze, aluminum and others reliably from a long distance. These are not available for the general public to buy, and you will not find anything published about this technology in any treasure hunting forum.

But there is one exception that I have found.
Andreas is a member of this forum who appears to have designed several LRLs which have a track record of finding treasure from a distance. How reliable? I don't know. But I heard reports from Mexico, Greece, USA and the UK that they are very reliable. His machines work on two different principles. The less expensive and shorter range version uses VLF electromagnetic principles to detect, and the more expensive longer range version uses infrared detection methods. In addition, he recently posted circuits for free use to build a working long range locator made from modifications and improvements to the old Alonso pistol detector. The problem is his solution for long range detection using the Alonso method requires micro-adjustments which are nearly impossible for people who don't have the equipment to calibrate them the way he does. Still, you can buy the detectors he designed to locate up to 30 meters distance from the Crypton company: http://crypton.com.gr/

Also be sure to read his posts about his solution to long range locating using the Alonso method, and building a locator that finds only gold... http://www.longrangelocators.com/for...ad.php?t=18956 (http://www.longrangelocators.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18956)

About putting larger coils on a metal detector:
Larger coils can probe deeper than small coils generally. However, when you put a larger coil on a metal detector, you also lose the sensitivity that smaller coils have for finding small metal objects, such as necklaces made from tiny chain links, and small nuggets, etc. Large coils are generally used for finding large metal objects that are deeper, such as meteorites or buried cannons, old trash dumps, large ore bodies etc. I've seen home-built coils with up to 5-ft diameter on PI machines. But that is general. There are probably some specialty large coils that do other things besides find large deep objects. There are limits to what kind of coil you can put on a metal detector. The electronic properties of the large coil must be compatible with the detector you are using. This is why it is most often done with PI machines, which are easier to match. VLF detectors can also be fitted with large coils, but these are more difficult to build and balance. You may want to look in the Geotech forums for some help about the kind of treasure hunting you want to do. They have a number of threads where people show how they connected large coils to PI detectors to hunt for deeper treasures. You will also find some of the brightest metal detecting engineers in the world posting in the Geotech forums - http://www.geotech1.com/forums/forum.php

Best Wishes, :)
J_P

[aft_72005]

Some guy from the LRL forum leaked out his secret for how to find things without using rods.... maybe not a million times more efficient, but lots of fun for a pastime....

http://www.longrangelocators.com/forums/showpost.php?p=102623&postcount=214

"I can find a signal line without rods. I hold my arms out from my sides and relax my wrists so my hands point down somewhat. I call it the scarecrow stance. Then I walk around the transmitter (arms parallel to signal line) until I feel the psychic electricity. I can't pinpoint the target with this method, just the signal line. I use the Revelation Locator Rod. There is no other rod that has as low stiction. It has an extremely low start-up torque threshold that borders on the infinite. Of course it's not, but it's imperceptible".

Best Wishes, :)
J_P


hi JP
after pass long time , i am happy meet you again here . :):):):):)

[leviterande]

Interesting, I got a feeling as well that Andreas may have a real working idea. but not 100% sure.

Coming from an area quite far from gold hunting, I have researched also old articles, scientists papers , (of course not related to treasure hunting) that could indicate the ability to detect at large ranges. nothing exact at all of course. Do you know any of these sources , you know the "not so much talked about methods" , or a name of a scientist or these methods known for possible use in LRL? I ask because you said this :

But there are real long range locators that do really find long time buried metals such as gold, silver, copper, bronze, aluminum and others reliably from a long distance. These are not available for the general public to buy, and you will not find anything published about this technology in any treasure hunting forum.


or did you just refer to Andreas?

Best Regards
Karl l.

[Mike(Mont)]

yeah, I agree--You should get a metal detector because like the other skeptics you have convinced yourself the MFD's "can't possible work". Never even tried one? That's a classic example of the Natural Selection process--you made your choice on a skeptic's word. Every one of those skeptics is a failed dowser.

I've been over this many times. If you want to learn L-rods you need some form of meditation. Just those simple yoga breathing exercises where you count to five on inhale, and count to five on exhale. The idea here is to shut down the left-side brain, what I call the skeptic side.

[leviterande]

yeah, I agree--You should get a metal detector because like the other skeptics you have convinced yourself the MFD's "can't possible work". Never even tried one? That's a classic example of the Natural Selection process--you made your choice on a skeptic's word. Every one of those skeptics is a failed dowser.

I've been over this many times. If you want to learn L-rods you need some form of meditation. Just those simple yoga breathing exercises where you count to five on inhale, and count to five on exhale. The idea here is to shut down the left-side brain, what I call the skeptic side.


You got me really wrong, I never ever said what you just accused me of :)! hehe. While I see that there seems to be no available remote long range locator, I can assure you that there is and should be a way somehow, there must be. Of course elements must have special properties. it is just there is a huge amount of fakers/fooled ones out there . but there is a true method and the question is where and how. you get me? one more point.

I dont do dowsing. I know how dowsing works and yes it is real and not fantasy I have scientific evidence. I can assure you that. And yes you must be a sensitive person. thats why not everyone is doing it. but I wont get into that.

. However, dowsing, cant remote detect as far as the extremely extensive research showed me, maybe I am wrong I hope.. So for anyone who has some device with some reliable evidence by all means I want to see it. It is just there is too much junk out there not just in this LRL world, I have seen the insane fraud and misinformation in other areas , not just treasure hunting , free energy, new theories, ormus .. etc you name it.. I have analysed a lot of data and most of it is rubbish sadly but I know there is a real working system. If it was black or white for me , life would be so much easier....

Meanwhile in my hunt for LRL , of course I want to still hunt with an improved metal detector.

Best regards :)
Karl

[WM6]

Just those simple yoga breathing exercises where you count to five on inhale, and count to five on exhale...



..... till you start to hallucinate and then you get clear vision of all hidden treasure in circle of 100 miles, even without MFD.

[Carl-NC]

I compare it to learning to play golf. Many people do not have the patience. And I always get a chuckle when someone who can't use a set of L-rods tries to tell others they can't possibly work. That's the Natural Selection process in action.

If someone claims to be a golfer, would he be able to demonstrate his golfing skills?
If someone claims to be a dowser, would he be able to demonstrate his dowsing skills?

[leviterande]

Mike, and all the experts or non experts out there.
I know this is off topic but I feel some points are good to see.


1-NMR

2-Low energy level spectra or the hyper fine splitting of atoms

3- Halo, aura, ionic effects, special field(?) of old buried minerals

4- emission of rays/em waves special to each element.(can with great certainty say that this is real but not 100% yet. I found out the frequencies emitted, measured, and calculated from a source unrelated to treasure hunting or lrl )

(3 and 4 not yet verified if 100% real or not yet, specially nr 3(?))


For any kind of any LRL these are 4 point of concern.

We have solid basis which is 1 and 2 but it is not over yet. You need to mostly though think about the Penetrability and strength of signal .

Lets take a closer look

1-NMR in Earths magn. field is in the auditory range so penetration through ground is very good but the signals are truly weak. s/n would be very poor. But can we detect it still yet with sensitive equipment? another problem is that Earths field varies along the surface so the NMR will also vary but perhaps not too much over shorter but still relatively large distances.

2- Very Specific frequency or frequencies to each element coming from the very minute splitting of the first state energy level of the electron itself. Good thing is that the frequency is not variable and is always distinct and fixed to each element! Two bad things however: penetration may not be good since the frequencies usually lie in the microwave range. Still , detection should be done if the depth arent big in the good kind of soil.However, even if this penetration problem is passed, you have again the problem of the signal strength to noise ratio. How good is the signal? It is weak. but can we detect it with sensitive equipment? that is a very vital question. Nr 1 and 2 are real and is one possible path to LRL. Nr4 which I see is perhaps the only final method ,-if real of course-could depend only on the sensitivity of the equipment.

Regards
Karl

[Mike(Mont)]

Ask James Randi. He witnessed Dell's MFD demo.

[reza vir]

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
James Randi http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/80/RANDI.jpg/220px-RANDI.jpg Born Randall James Hamilton Zwinge
August 7, 1928 (age 86)
Toronto, Ontario, Canada Nationality American Occupation Magician, illusionist, writer, skeptic Religion None (Atheist) [1] Spouse(s) Deyvi Peña (married 2013) Signature http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f4/JamesRandiSignature.png/150px-JamesRandiSignature.png Website www.randi.org James Randi (born Randall James Hamilton Zwinge, August 7, 1928) is a Canadian-American retired stage magician and scientific skeptic[2][3] best known for his challenges to paranormal claims and pseudoscience.[4] Randi is the founder of the James Randi Educational Foundation (JREF). He began his career as a magician named The Amazing Randi, but after retiring at age 60, he chose to devote most of his time to investigating paranormal, occult, and supernatural claims, which he collectively calls "woo-woo."[5]
Although often referred to as a "debunker," Randi dislikes the term's connotations and prefers to describe himself as an "investigator."[6] He has written about the paranormal, skepticism, and the history of magic. He was a frequent guest on The Tonight Show Starring Johnny Carson and was occasionally featured on the television program Penn & Teller: Bull****! The JREF sponsors the One Million Dollar Paranormal Challenge offering a prize of US$1,000,000 to eligible applicants[7] who can demonstrate evidence of any paranormal, supernatural or occult power or event under test conditions agreed to by both parties.[8]

http://www.randi.org/site/

**********************************
see move

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqoYrSd94kA


************************************************** ****

Hi Mike, my friend
I think people do not pay attention because I believed myself, and I believe that it is absolutely perfect and I could get things out of the soil
Many people tried but failed
And many people are finding alternatives that you can treasure to try to get others to make fun of baseless things to know

[Mike(Mont)]

There are times the frequency generators do not work. Even the dowsing amplifier I build does not work some times. That's why you use a test target before and during every search. Also I only use one rod. Two is more sensitive but this can lead to false responses. I still practice with two rods now and then but I always put them away in favor of the rod I build the "Light Rod". My search techniques are different, too. And I also say some form of meditation is essential to any L-rod work. Let's not forget something here: the rods are not always the problem. The subtle energies can easily get blocked out and ignored by the user. Anyone who thinks they can pick up a pair of L-rods and learn to use them in twenty minutes is an ignorant fool. Everything must be learned so that you don't ever have to think about it. It don't take no rocket scientist to see the failures have not learned the essentials. Everybody wants it right now.

[J_Player]

Interesting, I got a feeling as well that Andreas may have a real working idea. but not 100% sure.

Coming from an area quite far from gold hunting, I have researched also old articles, scientists papers , (of course not related to treasure hunting) that could indicate the ability to detect at large ranges. nothing exact at all of course. Do you know any of these sources , you know the "not so much talked about methods" , or a name of a scientist or these methods known for possible use in LRL? I ask because you said this :

But there are real long range locators that do really find long time buried metals such as gold, silver, copper, bronze, aluminum and others reliably from a long distance. These are not available for the general public to buy, and you will not find anything published about this technology in any treasure hunting forum.


or did you just refer to Andreas?

Best Regards
Karl l.
Hi leviterande,
1.
The idea Andreas has is a correct idea. Both of the principles he uses are capable of detecting from a long distance, but both also have limitations which restrict their use to certain conditions. Andreas is not your typical LRL salesman. He is an electronic engineer who came here looking for a way to detect from long range just like you, and he spent a number of years researching and building prototypes before he found any kind of success in locating from a distance. The detection principles he uses do work. The only question is how well did he design his locators to reliably find buried treasure at a distance. This is something I don't know. I can only go by reports I received from forum friends who have used his locators. The reports I heard are good from all over the world, but I am only going by reports I heard, not hands-on experience.

If you decide to buy an LRL from him or anyone else, I would highly suggest you get it on a trial basis so you can test it for a week in the place where you hunt for treasure to make sure it works for you before handing over a large chunk of money. I know Andreas is not going to cheat anyone, and he might allow you to try one for awhile before you buy. But beware... most LRL companies are not willing to do that, in which case I would not buy no matter how good the advertising looks. most of what's available is crappy stuff you could build yourself for under $50 and doesn't work.

If you are interested in mfd principles, you might want to contact Tim Williams http://lrlman.com/ . He seems like an honest person who sells MFD and dowsing aid tools, as well as his own design electronics that will map out your search area to show slight anomalies you might find from various metal detectors and GPR devices. He also is an authorized dealer for the Crypton locators that Andreas designed. Personally, I have never seen any confirmed success of any kind from MFD, and the principles behind it are contradictory to known science, so I don't go there.
Again, I wouldn't buy anything unless I had a chance to test it and see if it works where I want to hunt for treasure first. If I don't see performance that puts a big smile on my face and new treasures in my treasure vault, then I would send it back.

2. Little known LRL methods:
The best methods for long range are already in use by geologists - they use a number of electronic devices that tell them where things are located under the ground. See below for more about that.
Little known methods include Gamma isotope detection, colorimetric evaluations (from satellites usually), and a few others which don't seem to practical to me.
Name of a scientist? Armin Bickel... built hand-held long range detectors which could locate gold silver, copper, oil, water bodies, kimberlite and other things in the ground from a distance more than 5000 feet. See here: http://www.longrangelocators.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11342


3. long range locating:
This is done mostly by geologists who are hired to find ore bodies at mines. They use a number of tools and instruments which might cost a half million dollars or more by the time their tool room is fully stocked. But their tools are designed to survey a large plot of land and map out what's under the ground in a large scale, while showing the hot spots where the ore is as well as other anomalies that the mine owner would want to know. Since we are hobby treasure hunters, we don't want to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars for equipment. We want a cheap magic box that tells us immediately where to dig a hole and recover a treasure. Of course, we get what we pay for. And in the case of most LRLS we get crap that's worth maybe $20 to $50 of useless electronic parts for a few thousand dollars and promises of finding treasure.
The way I see it, the really working equipment like geologists use is too expensive for a hobby, and it's not so well suited for finding small objects. And the cheap crap is a fast way to lose all your hobby money.
The only place in between is there are a few real electronic engineers who actually build things that they believe can work. If you can get them to build something they think works for you, and let you try it out first, there's a chance that you might have a locator that does something to help you find treasure from a distance.

4.
Yes, there are real long range locators that find gold, silver, copper, bronze, aluminum and others reliably from a long distance. But as I said, they are not available for you to buy, and if they were, you couldn't afford them.

Best Wishes, :)
J_P

[reza vir]

Hi, I'm J Player so happy you are back on the forum.
Everyone's goal is to build a device to be true
But all the devices and the relative weakness of the
The first metal device in different locations with different soil feels
mineoro I saw it in a metal can not rightly feel
But in other countries can sens metal
Devices behave differently in different places.

Best Regards

[leviterande]

Hi leviterande,
1.
The idea Andreas has is a correct idea. Both of the principles he uses are capable of detecting from a long distance, but both also have limitations which restrict their use to certain conditions. Andreas is not your typical LRL salesman. He is an electronic engineer who came here looking for a way to detect from long range just like you, and he spent a number of years researching and building prototypes before he found any kind of success in locating from a distance. The detection principles he uses do work. The only question is how well did he design his locators to reliably find buried treasure at a distance. This is something I don't know. I can only go by reports I received from forum friends who have used his locators. The reports I heard are good from all over the world, but I am only going by reports I heard, not hands-on experience.

If you decide to buy an LRL from him or anyone else, I would highly suggest you get it on a trial basis so you can test it for a week in the place where you hunt for treasure to make sure it works for you before handing over a large chunk of money. I know Andreas is not going to cheat anyone, and he might allow you to try one for awhile before you buy. But beware... most LRL companies are not willing to do that, in which case I would not buy no matter how good the advertising looks. most of what's available is crappy stuff you could build yourself for under $50 and doesn't work.

If you are interested in mfd principles, you might want to contact Tim Williams http://lrlman.com/ . He seems like an honest person who sells MFD and dowsing aid tools, as well as his own design electronics that will map out your search area to show slight anomalies you might find from various metal detectors and GPR devices. He also is an authorized dealer for the Crypton locators that Andreas designed. Personally, I have never seen any confirmed success of any kind from MFD, and the principles behind it are contradictory to known science, so I don't go there.
Again, I wouldn't buy anything unless I had a chance to test it and see if it works where I want to hunt for treasure first. If I don't see performance that puts a big smile on my face and new treasures in my treasure vault, then I would send it back.

2. Little known LRL methods:
The best methods for long range are already in use by geologists - they use a number of electronic devices that tell them where things are located under the ground. See below for more about that.
Little known methods include Gamma isotope detection, colorimetric evaluations (from satellites usually), and a few others which don't seem to practical to me.
Name of a scientist? Armin Bickel... built hand-held long range detectors which could locate gold silver, copper, oil, water bodies, kimberlite and other things in the ground from a distance more than 5000 feet. See here: http://www.longrangelocators.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11342


3. long range locating:
This is done mostly by geologists who are hired to find ore bodies at mines. They use a number of tools and instruments which might cost a half million dollars or more by the time their tool room is fully stocked. But their tools are designed to survey a large plot of land and map out what's under the ground in a large scale, while showing the hot spots where the ore is as well as other anomalies that the mine owner would want to know. Since we are hobby treasure hunters, we don't want to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars for equipment. We want a cheap magic box that tells us immediately where to dig a hole and recover a treasure. Of course, we get what we pay for. And in the case of most LRLS we get crap that's worth maybe $20 to $50 of useless electronic parts for a few thousand dollars and promises of finding treasure.
The way I see it, the really working equipment like geologists use is too expensive for a hobby, and it's not so well suited for finding small objects. And the cheap crap is a fast way to lose all your hobby money.
The only place in between is there are a few real electronic engineers who actually build things that they believe can work. If you can get them to build something they think works for you, and let you try it out first, there's a chance that you might have a locator that does something to help you find treasure from a distance.

4.
Yes, there are real long range locators that find gold, silver, copper, bronze, aluminum and others reliably from a long distance. But as I said, they are not available for you to buy, and if they were, you couldn't afford them.

Best Wishes, :)
J_P

Interesting. One question first. does the detector needs to be almost directly above the ore regardless of altitude of airplane or satellite? or can this detector find an ore from a distance or different latitude equally well? I suspect only directly above?

This method is really detecting very very weak signals. But does the signal depend on altitude from the ore or is signal change with altitude negligible?

[J_Player]

Interesting. One question first. does the detector needs to be almost directly above the ore regardless of altitude of airplane or satellite? or can this detector find an ore from a distance or different latitude equally well? I suspect only directly above?

This method is really detecting very very weak signals. But does the signal depend on altitude from the ore or is signal change with altitude negligible?
Hi leviterande,
The Bickel isotope detector is used to make a survey of a plot of ground from above. It can be used in a satellite, an airplane, a car, or by hand when walking over the ground, and holding the scintillator probe downward. The data map that is generated is about the same regardless of what altitude, but at satellite heights, the resolution is not as good as when measuring from a plane or on the ground, which give the same resolution. The probe consists of a lead tube that is open at one end to expose a scintillator crystal. While the crystal is shielded from light, the open lead end allows gamma and alpha radiation to pass through the light filter. The purpose of the lead tube is to shield gamma from entering at the sides, and only enter through the open end. A photomultiplier behind the crystal converts tiny flashes of light to electrical signals which are analyzed, then sent to a counter to determine how many counts are coming from a gold isotope (or other materials that are being searched for). This device will give meaningful data only when it is pointed downward and used to make a survey of a plot of land. In theory, you may be able to rig it to work for searching an area at an angle different than down, but I have not heard of it being used in that way.

The signals are extremely weak as you say. Dr. Bickel told me it is best to use this detector at times of the day when the solar activity is low. Otherwise the noise from the solar activity interferes with getting reliable readings. He recommended mornings before noon, around 10am for the work he did in the western USA and in Mexico.

Best Wishes,
J_P

[leviterande]

Hi leviterande,
The Bickel isotope detector is used to make a survey of a plot of ground from above. It can be used in a satellite, an airplane, a car, or by hand when walking over the ground, and holding the scintillator probe downward. The data map that is generated is about the same regardless of what altitude, but at satellite heights, the resolution is not as good as when measuring from a plane or on the ground, which give the same resolution. The probe consists of a lead tube that is open at one end to expose a scintillator crystal. While the crystal is shielded from light, the open lead end allows gamma and alpha radiation to pass through the light filter. The purpose of the lead tube is to shield gamma from entering at the sides, and only enter through the open end. A photomultiplier behind the crystal converts tiny flashes of light to electrical signals which are analyzed, then sent to a counter to determine how many counts are coming from a gold isotope (or other materials that are being searched for). This device will give meaningful data only when it is pointed downward and used to make a survey of a plot of land. In theory, you may be able to rig it to work for searching an area at an angle different than down, but I have not heard of it being used in that way.

The signals are extremely weak as you say. Dr. Bickel told me it is best to use this detector at times of the day when the solar activity is low. Otherwise the noise from the solar activity interferes with getting reliable readings. He recommended mornings before noon, around 10am for the work he did in the western USA and in Mexico.

Best Wishes,
J_P

It would be valuable to know whether the detector works also at other directions than perpendicular to earth surface. I stumble always upon this feat-that it needs to be directly above the source- in many pre WWII books. dont get me wrong. having a low flying plane with this device on board and flying over a suspect area over all the rocks, soil lakes and trees and get accurate data regardless of the terrain is really extremely helpful and wonderful but it is not to be compared with the ability to "point-scan" and area, i.e. stand in a forest, aim the device forward and rotate around you left or right until you find a signal.

Actually the "point+scan" ability should work just as well for the Bickel device. If point and scan does not work than, this means something big and important, (unnoticed by many) and perhaps confirming one cruicial point one more time during my research: those so called gamma radiations of the atom that are detected are not coming from the atom, they are coming from outer space. rays of extreme penetration imparting earth and all of its elements interacting with the atom. Obviously the highest penetration happens at 90 degrees from surface. Lots of materials indicate this as well or Something close to this. These are called vertical beams emanating from all elements. And that is what dowsers feel.

Nothing is written in stone yet though

[leviterande]

I am not sure if to continue here, but: Fruits of experiments indicate that all elements emit specific radiations in the mhz. To my knowledge this is not isotope decay, hyper fine structure, NMR or emission spectra related. Research and work indicates that a sensitive receiver in the microwave range is needed. How sensitive to overcome noise and have a good S/N? I am not sure. Cryo cooled first stage semiconducting amplifiers are new but are here for ultra low noise first stage amplification. That coupled with an ultra Q-value and High gain antenna., Should give highest sensitivity. But, I am not a radio engineer so I am still looking for a method to receive very weak specific signals in the microwave range. If there is anyone here that is an expert in the area you are welcome to discuss.

[Mike(Mont)]

The frequency discriminators use many different frequencies, but not too many in the MHz range. Most are below 10KHz, many in the hundreds of Hertz. There is a website something like radio below 22KHz.

No, I'm no expert but I know what is being used and it's the low frequencies. Remember the magnetic component of the scalar wave is only wavelength/2Pi. Your high MHz will not travel more than a few inches at 300MHz. Wavelength is one meter divided by 2Pi is about 6 1/2 inches. That's not even as good as a metal detector.

[leviterande]

I now realise I am really not sure if this is the correct place to post this, maybe Geotech is better?
At any rate, back to the subject of this thread about plainly detecting metal objects from a distance by simple good old electromagnetic means, I found something interesting relating exactly to what I was searching.
Apparently, military grade Spaceborne and Airborne UWB GPR SAR systems can detect precisely with high resolution small metallic mines UNDER the surface, BUT! this is not why I am surprised. High resolution SAR imaging is known, it wasnt either the nice fact that they could detect objects under the ground surface, penetrating through the trees and foliage.

If anyone knows radar, you know clutter is the highest wall. I was taken that they used EMIS+ "other methods" to discriminate against the clutter!. That is tremendous. We are talking about altitudes over 400 meters!! detecting small mines under the surface in forest! This is highly interesting as the images were very satisfactory. So perhaps after all there is a direct straightforward remote way. And perhaps they are just detecting the very subtle magnetic inductions as the final step to discriminate against soil variation spots, clutter and other false natural spots.. I am not sure though exactly how, because sensitivity would be extraterritoriality high. Some more details are hard to find.

[Funfinder]

We shouldn't call this stuff locators or detectors, but: guessers.
If they work at all they work on the "pipe locator" long-wave radio wave concentration or
reflection principle, passive (without transmitter) or active.
And some are also detecting distortions of the earths magnetical field.

So those detectors are far away from reliability and it's no wonder that all of the
producers or sellers of them avoid scientifical testing at all costs!
They don't wanna get a proven "it does not work"-certificate, it would ruin all
their efforts, their business and in what they believe.

Holding dowsing rods is the same absurd as holding a crucifix to detect with it
what person is possessed by demons! People feel or detect alot if they have too much time!


What in 100 years really could, I say "could!!!" work, is perfectionated backscatter-
technology. It would work like reflecting radar but on very "sharp" x-rays or even
gamma-rays which can penetrate the ground also from a larger distance.
But the receiving unit must have extreme high definition and methods like
with satellite-signals to concentrate the weak signals will not work because
most of the reflected waves will go straight through the metal.

Modern usual GPRs work with signals from 3 to 300 MHz,where the shorter waves
can not penetrate the ground much deep but have better resolution for smaller
objects while the longer waves are for deeper and larger structures.
But more than 5 meters (15 ft) they can not penetrate with reliable results.


The main thing that is going on here in this forum is providing unprovable claims
from those who are shure they have working LRL-devices!
All of them ignore the possiblity that the creator of this forum would test those
as real working presented devices!
Of course they must refuse such an offer, because they know how unreliable
their stuff works! And all those "I have bought a LRL and it is real working" guys here also
refuse to give away their wannabe working LRL to a real test!
What do they have to lose?
Are they afraid that someone could discover them as liars or sweettalkers or even
as promoters for those from where they got their stuff?!

Clear electronical work looks different! There is absolutly no doubt the Playstation 4
works! Even all those new video games have to be test-played many times before
they are allowed to hit the market!

Those LRLs are more like Alladins wonderlamp! Pseudo-electronical Fairytale-products!
Some sort of wishdream of mankind that in almost all cases remains just a wishdream!

And for LRL believers perhaps the land around Syria and Irak could be a fine place -
there are many hidden treasures and many believers, too....
From this region everyone can learn to what results stubborn believing leads! :(

[J_Player]

hi JP
after pass long time , i am happy meet you again here . :):):):):)
Hi aft,
Thank you. It's good to see you are still here too.
I am only here temporarily, but I will post when I have time for it.

Best wishes, :)
J_P

[WM6]

I will post when I have time for it.

Best wishes, :)
J_P

Hope not to rare.

Best wishes to you to, J_P.

[leviterande]

We shouldn't call this stuff locators or detectors, but: guessers.
If they work at all they work on the "pipe locator" long-wave radio wave concentration or
reflection principle, passive (without transmitter) or active.
And some are also detecting distortions of the earths magnetical field.

So those detectors are far away from reliability and it's no wonder that all of the
producers or sellers of them avoid scientifical testing at all costs!
They don't wanna get a proven "it does not work"-certificate, it would ruin all
their efforts, their business and in what they believe.

Holding dowsing rods is the same absurd as holding a crucifix to detect with it
what person is possessed by demons! People feel or detect alot if they have too much time!


What in 100 years really could, I say "could!!!" work, is perfectionated backscatter-
technology. It would work like reflecting radar but on very "sharp" x-rays or even
gamma-rays which can penetrate the ground also from a larger distance.
But the receiving unit must have extreme high definition and methods like
with satellite-signals to concentrate the weak signals will not work because
most of the reflected waves will go straight through the metal.

Modern usual GPRs work with signals from 3 to 300 MHz,where the shorter waves
can not penetrate the ground much deep but have better resolution for smaller
objects while the longer waves are for deeper and larger structures.
But more than 5 meters (15 ft) they can not penetrate with reliable results.


The main thing that is going on here in this forum is providing unprovable claims
from those who are shure they have working LRL-devices!
All of them ignore the possiblity that the creator of this forum would test those
as real working presented devices!
Of course they must refuse such an offer, because they know how unreliable
their stuff works! And all those "I have bought a LRL and it is real working" guys here also
refuse to give away their wannabe working LRL to a real test!
What do they have to lose?
Are they afraid that someone could discover them as liars or sweettalkers or even
as promoters for those from where they got their stuff?!

Clear electronical work looks different! There is absolutly no doubt the Playstation 4
works! Even all those new video games have to be test-played many times before
they are allowed to hit the market!

Those LRLs are more like Alladins wonderlamp! Pseudo-electronical Fairytale-products!
Some sort of wishdream of mankind that in almost all cases remains just a wishdream!

And for LRL believers perhaps the land around Syria and Irak could be a fine place -
there are many hidden treasures and many believers, too....
From this region everyone can learn to what results stubborn believing leads! :(

Hi, I am not sure if you talk about everything here or just the LRL that are everywhere that are scams. Yes 99,9% of all these lrl if not 100% are just huge scams.

I was referring to a gpr SAR system used by the military. they are finding, discriminating and identifying buried mines , through the tree canopy and all the clutter by many advanced spectral methods. They showed a picture before discriminating where there are many similar spots but after signal processing and spectral analysis methods they almost completely eliminated false alarms. It seems a complex method/methods though are used.

[J_Player]

It would be valuable to know whether the detector works also at other directions than perpendicular to earth surface. I stumble always upon this feat-that it needs to be directly above the source- in many pre WWII books. dont get me wrong. having a low flying plane with this device on board and flying over a suspect area over all the rocks, soil lakes and trees and get accurate data regardless of the terrain is really extremely helpful and wonderful but it is not to be compared with the ability to "point-scan" and area, i.e. stand in a forest, aim the device forward and rotate around you left or right until you find a signal.

Actually the "point+scan" ability should work just as well for the Bickel device. If point and scan does not work than, this means something big and important, (unnoticed by many) and perhaps confirming one cruicial point one more time during my research: those so called gamma radiations of the atom that are detected are not coming from the atom, they are coming from outer space. rays of extreme penetration imparting earth and all of its elements interacting with the atom. Obviously the highest penetration happens at 90 degrees from surface. Lots of materials indicate this as well or Something close to this. These are called vertical beams emanating from all elements. And that is what dowsers feel.

Nothing is written in stone yet though
Hi leviterande,

In order to know whether the gamma isotope detector works in other directions, you must first understand what it is sensing. This machine detects gamma rays entering into the open end of a lead tube. This open tube end shields gamma rays from entering at the sides, so what you are sensing is basically a cone pattern that looks like the light pattern that a flashlight sends out. The cone angle can be narrow or wide, depending on how deep the scintillator crystal is embedded into the tube. For sake of discussion, let us assume a 10 degree cone angle which gamma rays can enter the end of the tube and pass into the detector crystal to be detected.
Now, more important than the cone angle of the sensor is the source of the gamma rays. These gamma rays are emitted from a gold atom in the ground when it a nuclide from radioactive decaying material (usually much deeper in the ground) collides with a gold atom. However, gold is fairly rare in the ground as a percentage of earth material, so only small traces of gamma rays come from the lumps of gold metal and gold veins found naturally in the ground. Fortunately there are a number of chemical processes which actually corrode gold and most other metals in trace amounts and cause ions of these metals to leach into the soil and disperse so they will occupy a larger volume of ground than the original gold metal that is buried. Over a very long period of time, the gold ions (or other metal ions) that are leaching out of the metal will begin to rise in a vertical column toward the surface of the ground. This leaves a trail of gold ions dissolved in the ground to form a vertical column directly above the buried metal. This vertical column has been measured to continue toward the surface for gold deposits that are buried up too 5000 feet deep. Now, if you consider a plot of ground that has a number of buried gold objects scattered in various amounts across the land, we would have a number of vertical columns of gold ions above a number of gold deposits. Because of the geometry of these ion columns, a radioactive nuclide is much more likely to collide with gold ions in the columns than the original metal gold deposits, which are much smaller. But regardless of how the nuclide collides with a gold atom, whether it is part of a metal lattice or an ion, the same gamma rays are emitted in greater amounts from the larger target area of this long column of gold ions above the gold metal.

Then we look at the directional properties of the gamma emissions from the columns and the actual gold metal at the bottom (which is actually a part of the column). If we make a traditional grid survey from above, we can expect the best precision, because the we are measuring from the top of many the columns where the contrast is expected to be better than if we measure at an angle. The length of this column dictates that it will focus the gamma emissions to come from a source only as wide as the column of gold ions. When we move our detector along the grid to a location that has no column of ions, then our readings drop to a normal background level for traces of gold that are not massive enough to create any sizable corrosion. Remember we are working with an assumed 10 degree cone angle of view, so we will have some loss of resolution when neighboring columns of ions are picked up within this cone of view.

Now suppose we use the probe with a point and scan technique. The first disadvantage is we lose the sharp contrast we had when we were sampling only from directly above the tops of these ion columns. If we measure the gamma count from the side of the column, we will see an anomaly which is not focused into a single point with the diameter of the top of the column. Instead, we will see the side of a column with a weaker signal strength, without any clear idea where to put the shovel until we do some vertical detecting to pinpoint the top. What the probe will be seeing in the horizontal scan position is the side of an ion column, and possibly the side of several other ion columns behind it or in front of it, as well as up to 5 degrees to either side. Yet with this loss of precision, it still may be useful for finding metals that have been buried a long time.
The problem of detecting the side of several columns can be mitigated by a person who is on foot by simply moving the probe around and tracking down the several columns from different angles. This seems not much harder than using a metal detector to find a small evasive item when you are digging. Another thing that can be done is to narrow the cone angle by extending the lead tube length to reduce the cone angle to maybe 5 degrees or less. This will improve the horizontal accuracy. But you will still need to move around and follow the target areas from different positions in your search field before you will pinpoint it. Of course, the final pinpointing would be done as a vertical scan across an area that is maybe 20-40 feet diameter to find where to put your shovel.

A final precaution: The gamma detectors are capable of detecting fresh metallic gold. But in practice, the users in the field say they only find gold that has been buried a long time (meaning 50 years or more). This points to the time it takes for the gold to corrode and traces of gold ions to leach into the soil and form the column of ions above the gold object. When treasure hunting, The gold treasures are much smaller than what geologists are looking for. Essentially the entire search plan is scaled down to micro size. Instead of finding an ion column anomaly that is 20 feet diameter above a ton of natural gold in rocks 500 feet deep, we are looking for a column on the order of 8" diameter and only as deep as the treasure is buried. This will require that the gamma detector is built with the best materials and designed to reject environmental noise, because the gamma anomalies we are trying to pick up are so much smaller than what geologists are looking for. Also consider there may be natural gold buried very deep that has raised the background gold ion count of the soil, so your treasure anomaly is only a small percentage of the total gold gamma signal you pick up. The fact that it is an anomaly should still be detectable, even with a high background count. But your biggest hazard is noise from solar/magnetic sources. How practical is this? I don't know. It depends on the cost of parts if you are a tinker who will build it yourself. Parts cost around $1200 back in the day when Dr. Bickel was building his state of the art machines. But today we have better parts, and they are cheaper for many of them. Instead of using discrete logic chips like he did, we can use a single logic module, or an asic to do the processing. The only high tech parts you need are the sodium iodide crystal and photomultiplier. Do not skimp on the scintillator crystal. The cheap ones don't compare to quality parts, and they stop working after a couple of years. There are also other scintillator sensors available today that were not available back then. Be sure you get something that will respond to the gamma from Au 196 and the resultant signal can be processed to discriminate the spectral data in your logic module.


Best Wishes,
J_P


P.S. If this "ion column" stuff sounds weird to you, it did to me too until I read how it is a muilti-million dollar industry to find gold, copper and other metals at minesites. Read here for more about that: http://www.longrangelocators.com/forums/showpost.php?p=149903&postcount=29
There are links at the bottom that will lead you to some amazing discoveries in the past 20 years about things happening to metals in the ground.

[leviterande]

JP, aha, ok, I see, I didnt know Bickel principle worked on ions, ions in the mix takes this whole thing to a whole new different dimension :). of course it would be best to point directly downwards for best detection. But, if it was simple EM waves radiating from the gold source as I originally thought , then, an omni field would exist instead.
It seems gamma spectroscopy isnt too much expensive or far, but remotely detecting the gamma seems very very far from our reach :(. I hope I am wrong

Karl

[J_Player]

JP, aha, ok, I see, I didnt know Bickel principle worked on ions, ions in the mix takes this whole thing to a whole new different dimension :). of course it would be best to point directly downwards for best detection. But, if it was simple EM waves radiating from the gold source as I originally thought , then, an omni field would exist instead.
It seems gamma spectroscopy isnt too much expensive or far, but remotely detecting the gamma seems very very far from our reach :(. I hope I am wrong

KarlHi leviterande,
gamma detection may not be so far from our reach. The parts are cheap now, and today's technology makes it a lot more simple... but only for people who have a good knowledge of current electronics, and have a workbench to build things on. While downwards gives the best resolution, sideways could work to give you muttled general directions until you get near the target, where you start pointing the thing down to pinpoint. The hand-held gamma detector Dr. Bickel showed me in the 1980s was the size of a notebook computer with a chord hanging off the side that had a flashlight-sized probe attached to the end. Today's version would be the same, except would probably have a netbook-sized electronic box instead of notebook.

Moving away from gamma detection, there are EM waves in the air that are influenced by the ground at locations where gold has been buried a long time. As a general concept, a treasure hunter could tune into one of these EM wave sources and follow it to find the anomaly where buried gold is located. A more likely method would be to enhance this technique by adding your own transmissions which could make the anomaly more visible.
What I just said is the basis for the existence of the entire longrangelocators forum. This is what everyone is making forum posts about.
But nobody in this forum has ever looked to real science to make it happen... they all prefer stupid methods like these:
1. I built an unstable oscillator with an antenna connected, and it gets gold signals when I move it near buried gold.
Ummm... I mean it does sometimes... Now don't come around to test my gizmo, cause it's a secret... :rolleyes:
2. I got my swivel rod thingy... it points to treasure, but only if I have a pure mind. And it will work for you too, ... but only if you have a pure mind..
Now don't come around to test my swivelly gizmo, cause I can't tolerate un-pure minds where I am dowsing. :rolleyes:
3. Ditto for MFD and frequency generators. :rolleyes:

If you shovel the rubbish aside, you will find that there remains some real science left that shows promise for the ability to do reliable long range locating for small objects. I recently posted the key data that is needed to make this happen. But this information is safely hidden in the open where all of the superstitious LRL hobbyists ignore it. If you want to use real electronic principles to locate from a distance, the answers are in this thread http://www.longrangelocators.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19030 . Read the whole thread, and it will become apparent that there is more to buried gold than you think. I detailed the entire process, while not mentioning any of the preferred methods to stimulate the treasure site or to detect it. I did this intentionally, so only the readers who actually believe in electronics and science will be able to recognize the significance. And only the best of the electronic engineers will go to the trouble to spend some time researching the missing parts, such as .. what kind of EM wave is best for detecting? What kind of spectrum analyzer do I need to design into this gizmo? How do I calibrate to keep the background noise under control? How much should I stimulate the ground where I am searching? etc.

Is this hard?
Yes... If you believe in the "phenomenon" and signal lines, and NMR working outside of a laboratory.

But if you believe in science and electronics, you may have a few months or more to figure out the details.
It's not that hard.... You don't have to build professional grade instruments -- it works with readily available parts.

Best Wishes, :)
J_P

[leviterande]

Good, J-P I think we are on similar common ground. I will read about that more and come back to you . On a note, I am all for principles. it is all about the principle, finding it and use it. not the vast LRL phony ocean. the electronic magic boxes.

I may not have forwarded one point. I am aware of treasure hunting and was never interested because the reasons you have already mentioned of phony lrls. My area of study is far away from this forum. It was a book/source I read, that much later, caught my attention for solid real straightforward detecting. It dealt with undeniable evidence and proof by a researcher and engineers before WWII. Mind you, I did not buy the book for treasure hunting but for other scientific exploration.

In short, it was found that all elements emit specific radiations in the radio range and they detected it using a plethora of instruments. I have the numbers down to better than 0,0001hz. The goal was thus to see what kind of receiving equipment I need to detect these weak signals with electronic devices. S/N ratio is obviously the biggest hurdle but I thought that our modern era of electronics should allow us to detect that. I contacted several sites about what sensitive equipment is the best but it is not a straight forward subject. All radio equipment are unfortunately made for wide band use, what we need is a very narrow band. custom works is perhaps the only way.
It seems that a cryo-cooled semconductor is the latest in S/N battle.

Regards
Karl

[Mike(Mont)]

Hey Karl, just remember joke_player is a failed dowser. Of course the big cop out is to claim the equipment can't possibly work when it's the operator who makes or breaks it. This is the classic case of "prostitute the intellect to defend the ego". And nobody wants to admit they are dumber than a hillbilly or redneck when it comes to frequency generators and L-rods. :lol:

[Mike(Mont)]

It's funny how the failed dowsers/skeptics all think they are an authority on the subject of L-rods and frequency generators. When you choose the negative, you are blinded to the truth. That's the Natural Selection process. They chose to make the cop-out.

[J_Player]

Good, J-P I think we are on similar common ground. I will read about that more and come back to you . On a note, I am all for principles. it is all about the principle, finding it and use it. not the vast LRL phony ocean. the electronic magic boxes.

I may not have forwarded one point. I am aware of treasure hunting and was never interested because the reasons you have already mentioned of phony lrls. My area of study is far away from this forum. It was a book/source I read, that much later, caught my attention for solid real straightforward detecting. It dealt with undeniable evidence and proof by a researcher and engineers before WWII. Mind you, I did not buy the book for treasure hunting but for other scientific exploration.

In short, it was found that all elements emit specific radiations in the radio range and they detected it using a plethora of instruments. I have the numbers down to better than 0,0001hz. The goal was thus to see what kind of receiving equipment I need to detect these weak signals with electronic devices. S/N ratio is obviously the biggest hurdle but I thought that our modern era of electronics should allow us to detect that. I contacted several sites about what sensitive equipment is the best but it is not a straight forward subject. All radio equipment are unfortunately made for wide band use, what we need is a very narrow band. custom works is perhaps the only way.
It seems that a cryo-cooled semconductor is the latest in S/N battle.

Regards
KarlHi leviterande,
I also have read books from before WWII that describe anomalies where buried items are. But my sources describe how early researchers were measuring man-made RF from various kinds of broadcast station transmitters whereby the waves tend to align or become disturbed where anomalies exist, much the way directors and reflectors are used in yagi antennas. This effect was caused mostly by objects on the surface such as building corners, but they also measured where the RF would align at underground objects, and other geological anomalies such as bodies of water and ore reefs. Again, the S/N ratio was the biggest obstacle when they searched for patterns for subterranean anomalies.

What I have not read about is specific RF radiations coming from buried elements.
Where can we read this book that describes the specific RF radiations that the researcher measured?

Best Wishes, :)
J_P

[Mike(Mont)]

You can also study up on ground radio. Also Lockheed Martin developed an underground communications system. As I recall they could transmit voice about a half mile on such low power as to not create a spark. But since you want to listen to the skeptics who can't locate, well I tried to help you. I have other devices I built which I've found gold and silver with, but the MFD type equipment is where my heart is. I really thought you might have a chance at an open mind on this. I'd tell you about the electronic receivers for MFD so you don't have to use L-rods, but I'm not wasting any more time.

[J_Player]

You can also study up on ground radio. Also Lockheed Martin developed an underground communications system. As I recall they could transmit voice about a half mile on such low power as to not create a spark. But since you want to listen to the skeptics who can't locate, well I tried to help you. I have other devices I built which I've found gold and silver with, but the MFD type equipment is where my heart is. I really thought you might have a chance at an open mind on this. I'd tell you about the electronic receivers for MFD so you don't have to use L-rods, but I'm not wasting any more time.
Hi Mike,
How's the weather in Montana?
Last time I was there the night view was fantastic. I could see millions of stars.
Don't let leviterande's complacency to MFD deter you.
Why not tell us the details about how we can use MFD to find treasures?
I am all ears.

Best Wishes, :)
J_P

[Mike(Mont)]

Hung was talking about a "dielectric discharge". Sounds like some kind or sprite or something. Don't know, but reminded me a out about an article I read on pyramid energy and a frequency generator signal in the ground. Can't find that article and already spent too long looking for it.
Anyway it wasn't dielectric discharge but something alone those lines.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Learning to recognize the body response, well I guess it's about self-mastery. I learned with a GSR meter and phony black cox contraption. Just your basic dowsing.

I know everybody does it, but there can't be any lying to oneself. Yeah, there are many more pathological liars than most would think. Of course that takes us right to the goals that meditation can teach--a quiet mind, a pure, clear focus and an expanded awareness. Sounds simple. It is, but it takes plenty of determination to get there. Mike say: "A quiet mind tells no lies."

[J_Player]

Hung was talking about a "dielectric discharge". Sounds like some kind or sprite or something. Don't know, but reminded me a out about an article I read on pyramid energy and a frequency generator signal in the ground. Can't find that article and already spent too long looking for it.
Anyway it wasn't dielectric discharge but something alone those lines.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Learning to recognize the body response, well I guess it's about self-mastery. I learned with a GSR meter and phony black cox contraption. Just your basic dowsing.

I know everybody does it, but there can't be any lying to oneself. Yeah, there are many more pathological liars than most would think. Of course that takes us right to the goals that meditation can teach--a quiet mind, a pure, clear focus and an expanded awareness. Sounds simple. It is, but it takes plenty of determination to get there. Mike say: "A quiet mind tells no lies."Are these the details for how we can use MFD to find treasures?
This is great news!
I am sure leviterande will be anxious to use these methods to search the large treasure hunting area he has in mind.

Best Wishes,
J_P

[Mike(Mont)]

The problem is the pathological liars tend to believe their own lies. They never even consider that they are their own worst enemy. That's what I talk about when I say we can't feel the 15 PSI air pressure surrounding us and they can't perceive they are lying.

[Qiaozhi]

Hung was talking about a "dielectric discharge". Sounds like some kind or sprite or something. Don't know, but reminded me a out about an article I read on pyramid energy and a frequency generator signal in the ground. Can't find that article and already spent too long looking for it.
Anyway it wasn't dielectric discharge but something alone those lines.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Are you sure it wasn't a diuretic discharge? :D

[reza vir]

Metals time around aura of magnetism create
And generated spiral waves that can be identified from a distance

http://s5.picofile.com/file/8141489292/%D8%A7%D9%85%D9%88%D8%A7%D8%AC_%DA%AF%D8%B1%D8%AF% D8%A7%D8%A8%DB%8C.JPG

[Mike(Mont)]

There is a device sold by Accurate Locators something like AGR receiver. It is a receiver that they say a local radio station can reflect off say a gold target at a certain fraction of the original frequency (depending on the resonant frequency of the desired target).

[reza vir]

There is a device sold by Accurate Locators something like AGR receiver. It is a receiver that they say a local radio station can reflect off say a gold target at a certain fraction of the original frequency (depending on the resonant frequency of the desired target).
Thanks Mike, good explanation;)

[Mike(Mont)]

I don't know where he came up with his theory. I mean the part about a fraction of the resonant frequency. I understand when an object radiates it does so at a lower frequency, but just exactly what frequency? The idea that a given radio station can cause the excitation is fine, but when you have so many different stations the radiated frequencies are going to be all over the scale and it seems likely that other elements will interfere. Now I'm not stating this as fact, just seems that way to me. Maybe it's not an issue.

[Qiaozhi]

I don't know where he came up with his theory. I mean the part about a fraction of the resonant frequency. I understand when an object radiates it does so at a lower frequency, but just exactly what frequency? The idea that a given radio station can cause the excitation is fine, but when you have so many different stations the radiated frequencies are going to be all over the scale and it seems likely that other elements will interfere. Now I'm not stating this as fact, just seems that way to me. Maybe it's not an issue.
It shouldn't make any difference. You just have to believe, then it will work. As long as you also supply the necessary elements of selective memory and self delusion.

[J_Player]

It shouldn't make any difference. You just have to believe, then it will work. As long as you also supply the necessary elements of selective memory and self delusion.
That's a happy condition to have. If you had to be concerned about all those different radio stations and harmonics, it might cause your head to explode.
Hopefully there's some law of science that makes the millions of frequencies fizzle away when you get farther away from them.
A treasure hunter might need to study RF propagation to see what are the implications to "Phenomenon" sensors. http://www.geotech1.com/forums/images/smilies/smilies/nerd.gif

Better yet, just believe... and be happy. 8)

Best Wishes,
J_P

[Mike(Mont)]

Yeah, well you guys are the ones who don't have an LRL. Or should I say you have convinced yourselves that it can't possibly work. I'm not against the pistol type detectors, just haven't seen or heard of anything of that type that can begin to compete with the frequency generators. And I have built other types of locators that rely a little more on dowsing. So who is delusional here? Reminds me of the Elvis song Hound Dog.