LRL working principle solved !

[Funfinder]

Good news for you all, the speculation why and how (our actual "working") LRLs are reacting on distant metal targets seems to be solved.


I found the solution-key yesterday while watching a report about RFID chips or exactly RFID active and passive components:

As you may know RFID-tags or chips don't need internal power source.

Like hidden metal objects they are working as antenna, reflector or EM-field consumers (through eddy-currents or energy-absorption).

The "living" RFID circuit contains a high sensitive field-strengh sensor so it recognises if the RFID chips antenna (resonance-circle)
is consuming energy from the radiated EM-field.
This is comparable with no battery diode-receiver (crystal-radios) that are using a high-gain antenna. If the antenna is good enough
those can suck so much AM-frequency energy from the field even
an audible noise by speaker is possible, not just ear-phone.

RFID-chips with high-gain antenna (size up to 5x5cm) work even
at a range up to 5m distance.



Now what situation do we have exactly with LRL?!


A person stands on a flat site, sourrounded by a wide spectrum EM-field. His LRL detector turns slowly around in this environment until a certain position is reached where the signal-trigger circuit comes in action.

What causes this trigger to switch or beep etc.?

Of course a distortion of the EM-field. If the LRL contains two coils those are acting like 2 directional magnetic antennas and if those became imbalanced (because of the field-distortion) at a certain spectrum the LRL recognises this.

The underground metal object disturbs the usual EM-field because it either reflects or consumes the EM-field and so leads to a distortion.


Important:
We have 2 different levels of "surface" - ground and air that also interacts. But the through metal objects distorted ground-EM field has the possibility to affect and distort the EM-field above the ground, too, and especially very significant if the detector is located just 1-1.5m above ground. And the usual EM-Field if distorted may also lead to distort the vertical static power field!



btw. here we have the opportunity for interesting test - how strong the LRL reacts if its located and used just 0.5m above the floor compared to 1.5m above.



Moisture and mineralic stones weakens the field and "reception" or reflection quality depending on their strength. Even the surface of the ground already reflects a huge range of the EM-spectrum, but it really depends and those waves also have a magnetical dimension.


The steel-frame of a building works different as antenna or reflector for EM-waves than a buried steel object.


Since we know already that the buried or hidden metal objects either reflects, consumes or distorts the sourrounding EM-field energy the only question remains:

What EM-spectrum works most sensitive and powerful for detection.

This also regards the magnetical pulse fields at certain frequencies.


We know an usual buried metal object on its own will not radiate / transmit any certain energy (as long as its not radioactive or highly heated).

Otherwise it would be simple to detect 'cause a huge 5kg gold-"nugget" would transmit over miles his "here I am"-signal and a sensitive directional receiver could locate it easily.

But the question is:
does a certain alloy or kind of metal starts to create harmonics or resonances waves if there is a powerful enough radio-source connected, even if that metal-object buried underground.

Because this will be the final question:

At what EM-field band the passive induction imbalance LRL detector does react and is this a direct result through distortion, reflection or consumation from the buried metal object (comparable with the usual magnetometer field detection methods)

OR

does a certain EM-field frequency or a larger range of that lead to special harmonics, vibrations, resonance, frequency-up-or down-convertion, shift in polarization etc. affecting certain kind of metal (especially after long time remaining under ground) which the LRL picks up.

If that observation about the LRL that it has lost 50% of sensitivity after analog TV station transmission stop ist true, it could lead to the conclusion that either the LRL receives the imbalance of the VHF frequency spectrum or - and this is much more likely - the TV VHF signals have been used by the buried metal objects for converting that energy into a different level or frequency.


Finding this out is very simple by taking a closer look what the LRL exactly detects or what sourrounding EM-field radiation exists in a certain country.

It also would be possible to irradiate a certain kind of metal object with all kind of different frequencies and at the same time testing with a broandband receiver if this metal "creates" any special harmonics that are strong enough for long range detection.



Perhaps Brazil has a totally different shape of frequency-spectrum that is needed to "inject" enough energy into the buried object until enough detectable converted energy or distortion has been created and thats why the Mineoro just works there.




If we take a closer look at those Zahori circuits those are simple static-imbalance-detectors with directional antennas but I doubt just only by distorted static fields we could find buried metal, especially from a distance.

There also has to be the magnetical component of the EM-field distorted (static is highvoltage direct current DC, EM-field is alternating current AC) so the LRL with its directional magnetical-loop antennas can pinpoint into the correct location.


But I hope now its finally clear what gots detected is the imbalance of EM-field regarding its intensity or its distortion at a certain frequency or area level!


PS
And perhaps the explanation why dowsing rods sometimes work also is imbalance of the usual static field.
If there is a very strong thunderstorm in the mountains it even can lift up your hairs because of the very strong static field.
Perhaps in an equal kind the dowsing rod user feels somehow the static field difference and the very sensitive balanced
rod gots lifted or teared down by the changed static field, if the underground fieldcharge gots distorted by metal or water etc.

[Dell Winders]

HOORAY! After all these years of my telling this forum, somebody here finally figured out that electronic LRL's, or hand held L-Rods are detecting stronger emanating Magnetic fields surrounding the target, and not the target itself. My customers have known this for the past 20 years.

For the critics it's been an exercise iof expression of the dumb & dumber, which I am sure they will continue

Congratulations Fun finder, you have a few more things to learn about LRL, but I applaud your thinking. Keep up the good works! Dell

[J_Player]

Good news for you all, the speculation why and how (our actual "working") LRLs are reacting on distant metal targets seems to be solved.

I found the solution-key yesterday while watching a report about RFID chips or exactly RFID active and passive components:
As you may know RFID-tags or chips don't need internal power source.
Like hidden metal objects they are working as antenna, reflector or EM-field consumers (through eddy-currents or energy-absorption).

The "living" RFID circuit contains a high sensitive field-strengh sensor so it recognises if the RFID chips antenna (resonance-circle)
is consuming energy from the radiated EM-field.
This is comparable with no battery diode-receiver (crystal-radios) that are using a high-gain antenna. If the antenna is good enough
those can suck so much AM-frequency energy from the field even
an audible noise by speaker is possible, not just ear-phone.

RFID-chips with high-gain antenna (size up to 5x5cm) work even
at a range up to 5m distance.
Now what situation do we have exactly with LRL?!

A person stands on a flat site, sourrounded by a wide spectrum EM-field. His LRL detector turns slowly around in this environment until a certain position is reached where the signal-trigger circuit comes in action.
What causes this trigger to switch or beep etc.?

Of course a distortion of the EM-field. If the LRL contains two coils those are acting like 2 directional magnetic antennas and if those became imbalanced (because of the field-distortion) at a certain spectrum the LRL recognises this.

The underground metal object disturbs the usual EM-field because it either reflects or consumes the EM-field and so leads to a distortion.
Important:
We have 2 different levels of "surface" - ground and air that also interacts. But the through metal objects distorted ground-EM field has the possibility to affect and distort the EM-field above the ground, too, and especially very significant if the detector is located just 1-1.5m above ground. And the usual EM-Field if distorted may also lead to distort the vertical static power field!

btw. here we have the opportunity for interesting test - how strong the LRL reacts if its located and used just 0.5m above the floor compared to 1.5m above.

Moisture and mineralic stones weakens the field and "reception" or reflection quality depending on their strength. Even the surface of the ground already reflects a huge range of the EM-spectrum, but it really depends and those waves also have a magnetical dimension.
The steel-frame of a building works different as antenna or reflector for EM-waves than a buried steel object.

Since we know already that the buried or hidden metal objects either reflects, consumes or distorts the sourrounding EM-field energy the only question remains:

What EM-spectrum works most sensitive and powerful for detection.
This also regards the magnetical pulse fields at certain frequencies.
We know an usual buried metal object on its own will not radiate / transmit any certain energy (as long as its not radioactive or highly heated).
Otherwise it would be simple to detect 'cause a huge 5kg gold-"nugget" would transmit over miles his "here I am"-signal and a sensitive directional receiver could locate it easily.

But the question is:
does a certain alloy or kind of metal starts to create harmonics or resonances waves if there is a powerful enough radio-source connected, even if that metal-object buried underground.
Because this will be the final question:

At what EM-field band the passive induction imbalance LRL detector does react and is this a direct result through distortion, reflection or consumation from the buried metal object (comparable with the usual magnetometer field detection methods)
OR
does a certain EM-field frequency or a larger range of that lead to special harmonics, vibrations, resonance, frequency-up-or down-convertion, shift in polarization etc. affecting certain kind of metal (especially after long time remaining under ground) which the LRL picks up.

If that observation about the LRL that it has lost 50% of sensitivity after analog TV station transmission stop ist true, it could lead to the conclusion that either the LRL receives the imbalance of the VHF frequency spectrum or - and this is much more likely - the TV VHF signals have been used by the buried metal objects for converting that energy into a different level or frequency.

Finding this out is very simple by taking a closer look what the LRL exactly detects or what sourrounding EM-field radiation exists in a certain country.
It also would be possible to irradiate a certain kind of metal object with all kind of different frequencies and at the same time testing with a broandband receiver if this metal "creates" any special harmonics that are strong enough for long range detection.

Perhaps Brazil has a totally different shape of frequency-spectrum that is needed to "inject" enough energy into the buried object until enough detectable converted energy or distortion has been created and thats why the Mineoro just works there.

If we take a closer look at those Zahori circuits those are simple static-imbalance-detectors with directional antennas but I doubt just only by distorted static fields we could find buried metal, especially from a distance.
There also has to be the magnetical component of the EM-field distorted (static is highvoltage direct current DC, EM-field is alternating current AC) so the LRL with its directional magnetical-loop antennas can pinpoint into the correct location.

But I hope now its finally clear what gots detected is the imbalance of EM-field regarding its intensity or its distortion at a certain frequency or area level!

PS
And perhaps the explanation why dowsing rods sometimes work also is imbalance of the usual static field.
If there is a very strong thunderstorm in the mountains it even can lift up your hairs because of the very strong static field.
Perhaps in an equal kind the dowsing rod user feels somehow the static field difference and the very sensitive balanced
rod gots lifted or teared down by the changed static field, if the underground fieldcharge gots distorted by metal or water etc.Hi Funfinder,
I don't see any evidence in your post that you solved the reason why LRLs are reacting to distant metal targets.
What I see in this post is more speculation.

1. There is no evidence that any LRL works on the principle of RFID tags.
Buried metal artifacts are not comparable with no-battery diode-receiver (crystal-radios) that are using a high-gain antenna.
Buried metals do not have circuitry which collects power from the VLF signals of a pistol type LRL.
In fact, there is no evidence that buried metals absorb any measurable power from a hand-held VLF transmitter coil.
The only exception is when the coil is placed within less than a meter of the buried metal.
Then we can expect it will consume enough power from the coil to induce measurable eddy currents within the buried metal object.
At longer distances there are no electronics in the buried metal object such as we find in an RFID tag to tune the broadcast at 5 meters.
Any theory that buried metals consume power from a VLF coil at a long distance is only a presumption which has not been shown to be true by experimental tests.
Can you tell us where we can find some tests that show how much power the buried metal is consuming from a distant hand-held transmitter circuit?

2. "What causes this trigger to switch or beep etc.? Of course a distortion of the EM-field".
The evidence we have seen so far shows this is not true.
From the field test reports and videos, we see there are often metal objects which can distort the EM field around a pistol type LRL.
Things such as metal detectors and iron shovels nearby, and metal parts in shoes, or maybe glasses worn by the user of the LRL.
Yet the videos show the LRL does not trigger when the coils are moving in relation to these objects, even when they are in closer proximity than the buried target.
This tells us it is not true that these LRLs are triggering because of distortion or reflection of the EM field.

3. "Since we know already that the buried or hidden metal objects either reflects, consumes or distorts the sourrounding EM-field energy..."
We don't know this.
What we know about the ground relation to VLF transmissions is well documented by geologists and radio engineers.
What we know is VLF waves penetrate the ground to depths which depend on the conductivity of the soil and constituents of the ground, as well as the frequency of the VLF transmitter.
For the frequencies used in pistol type locators (50 KHz to 180 KHz), we can expect the VLF to penetrate a few meters into the soil, and deeper at lower frequencies.
We also know that when the soil is wet and highly mineralized, the penetration is less, and the ground is absorbing more of the RF energy.
From geologists who routinely measure and map things under the ground, we learn that small objects such as a buried ring are not detectable using the VLF absorption or reflection methods in this frequency range.
However, a pistol type detector is not used in the same manner as a geologist's VLF loop.
But we still have the problem that well-documented cases show pistol type detectors do not trigger when the coils come close to where nearby metal objects are expected to distort the EM field.
These nearby objects include steel shovels, brass buckles, aluminum detector shafts, steel electronic enclosures, metal battery parts, gold-plated circuit parts inside metal detectors, steel used inside metal detectors for potentiometers and switches, aluminum capacitor casings, copper wires and searchcoils, etc.

4. "...special harmonics, vibrations, resonance, frequency-up-or down-convertion, shift in polarization etc. affecting certain kind of metal (especially after long time remaining under ground) which the LRL picks up".
There is no evidence to show there are any "special harmonics, vibrations, resonance, frequency-up-or down-convertion, shift in polarization" being emitted from buried metals when a VLF transmitter is in the vicinity.
This is only speculation with no experimental evidence to measure anything of this kind coming from the buried metal.

5. "Finding this out is very simple by taking a closer look what the LRL exactly detects or what sourrounding EM-field radiation exists in a certain country".
I agree -- Finding out is not very hard for a person who uses appropriate instruments to take measurements.
But finding out what the LRL is detecting has not been done by builders of the LRLs.
Perhaps the people who build these LRLs are not capable of determining what their LRLs are detecting.
Nobody else can do it, because they are secret circuits.

6. "I hope now its finally clear what gots detected is the imbalance of EM-field regarding its intensity or its distortion at a certain frequency or area level!"
No, this is not clear.
I read reports from users of Greek LRLs who posted that their locators do not respond to iron or magnets.
Yet we know that iron and magnets will distort the field of a VLF coil more than jewelry metals and coin metals.
These reports are spread through this forum in different threads.

There are many videos which show detection is not made by imbalance of EM field regarding its intensity or distortion.
See this video of the Crypton OBMD-1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYsNyva8BBs
See where G-sani walks past a metal detector several times which has aluminum, copper and iron metal in large amounts.
All these metals are known to distort the field of a VLF coil.
But we see there is no triggering when the locator is pointed at this metal detector several times.
What we see is it only beeps consistently when it is pointed at a smaller lead bullet buried at some meters distance.

See also the many recent videos Morgan sent here: http://www.longrangelocators.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18145
You will see many cases where his PDK does not trigger when the coil is pointed toward metal things such as shovels and metal detectors.
I can remember his locators only triggered when they were put very close to these other metals, much closer than the target detection ranges he was showing.

From what I read, It appears you have not solved the working principle of pistol type LRLs.
It appears you presented more speculations which have not been verified to be true.
And some of your speculations have been shown to be false by numerous videos and field reports from users of these locators.

But it seems you have also suggested that someone should test to find out what their locator is detecting (#5 above).
I think this is a good idea.
I believe you will find it is not detecting buried metal, but something different which has nothing to do with eddy currents or RF harmonics emitting from the chunk of buried metal.


Best Wishes, :)
J_P

[Dell Winders]

I believe you will find it is not detecting buried metal, but something different which has nothing to do with eddy currents or RF harmonics emitting from the chunk of buried metal.

Jplayer, every once in awhile in your twisted sense of logic you come up with some half truths. I've been telling this forum for years that LRL's are NOT detecting buried metals. Heck, it's even included in my instruction manual.

Every time you post, you demonstrate your ignorance of the subject. Dell

[J_Player]

Jplayer, every once in awhile in your twisted sense of logic you come up with some half truths. I've been telling this forum for years that LRL's are NOT detecting buried metals. Heck, it's even included in my instruction manual.

Every time you post, you demonstrate your ignorance of the subject. DellHi Dell,
You got it wrong.
You quoted what I believe. This is not the same as a fact which can be proven.

For the record, I am not ignorant of what pseudoscience is.
I have read plenty of pseudoscience from ignorant people, as well as hungscience from delusional people.
I am very well aware of the difference between pseudoscience and real science.
The invention of alleged "signal lines" BS, for example.
I have no problem determining the difference between facts which can be proven and fake propaganda designed to trick people into sending money for over-priced non-working electronic junk.


Best Wishes, :)
J_P

[Dave J.]

Funfunder was being serious? I thought he was mocking LRL'ers.

--Dave J.

[Dell Winders]

Psuedo Science? I have never seen a Science that was faked. Only, pretend (fake} scientist who frequent this forum with their own style of BS. Take my advice and relate LRL to the detection of Magnetic Fields, NOT metals, and you won't have to be a BELIEVER when you understand the facts. Dell

[J_Player]

Psuedo Science? I have never seen a Science that was faked. Only, pretend (fake} scientist who frequent this forum with their own style of BS. Take my advice and relate LRL to the detection of Magnetic Fields, NOT metals, and you won't have to be a BELIEVER when you understand the facts. DellHi Dell,
The equipment being discussed above is mostly VLF transmitter and receiver sets which are fully electronic without swiveling rods.
The magnetic facts of VLF coils are very well studied and documented by geologists and radio engineers.
There is an enormous amount of factual data which describes the magnetic properties for these kinds of coils can be read online at a number of university physics websites and electronics websites.
The Geotech forum has one of the best repositories for VLF coils of this nature I have seen online, and also has quite a bit of cutting edge VLF magnetic technology being developed which has not been found in the commercial market yet.
The VLF transmitter and receiver coils being developed at the Geotech forum are actually about twice the size of the VLF coils discussed above, and work with the same magnetic fields and wave propagation.
Yet I see no mention of "signal lines" or detecting from 5 meter as if an RFID tag was attached to a coin or jewelry from magnetic effects of hand-held VLF coils.
There is no mention of signal lines in the Geotech forum or any other authoritative website that shows known facts about magnetic fields which these coils detect.
University and geotechnical websites which explain the physics of magnetic fields interacting with the ground do not make any reference to "signal lines".
They explain other mechanisms whereby a VLF coil can help to locate things that are under the ground.
The only magnetic field they describe interacting with buried things is a magnetic field which is found in ferrous ores and sands, or metals which may have become magnetized by the earth's field.
They say these ferrous things can concentrate the earth's field to show an anomaly where the field strength is different than a place which has a different ferrous content.
And they also talk about a magnetic field which can be induced in buried ferrous and non-ferrous ores and sands, as well as metals by using a VLF coil.
They explain the conductive and magnetic properties of buried objects will influence a VLF transmission in a way that can be measured, so we can also find an anomaly if we have a suitable instrument to sample and measure the VLF absorption over some terrain. Of course this does not tell us directly whether there are any local magnetic anomalies.
The local magnetic anomalies are easy to measure with a magnetometer, and are usually associated with an anomaly of mineralized sands or ores or rocks which have magnetic properties.
None of these sources say that a buried coin or ring will create a magnetic anomaly that we can measure.
Nor did any LRL enthusiast show how how we can measure any magnetic anomaly coming from the location around buried nonferrous metal either.

Since none of these sources show a magnetic field anomaly exists on it's own around a non-ferrous buried coin as you are talking about, why don't you tell us what causes it to generate, and how strong we can expect to measure it with a magnetometer to verify it is a fact rather than some made up BS?


Best Wishes, :)
J_P

[Funfinder]

HOORAY! After all these years of my telling this forum, somebody here finally figured out that electronic LRL's, or hand held L-Rods are detecting stronger emanating Magnetic fields surrounding the target, and not the target itself. My customers have known this for the past 20 years.

For the critics it's been an exercise iof expression of the dumb & dumber, which I am sure they will continue

Congratulations Fun finder, you have a few more things to learn about LRL, but I applaud your thinking. Keep up the good works! Dell

Hi Dell,

sorry but I got in contact with this forum for the first time in 2010
so the whole LRL topic was new for me and so far I haven't read
or seen your studies and information here in this forum.

This has also to do with the whole conflict, dispute and controversy
of this whole "LRL-special-task".

Personally I haven't tested your devices so far but as far as
the info from Carl Moreland who knows well enough about
reliable working electronic and circuits-construction and many
disappointed user-reviews including critical disassembling and
finding out that the inside parts "logically can not detect anything"
stuff there it seems that those detectors don't work as reliable
as usual MDs BUT thoses should work reliable.


But seems we now have the breakthrough concerning really
reliable working LRLs by Morgan, Geo and especially Andreas
from Europe.

The Goldguns telescopic antennas for shure are not for the magnetical energy
but the directional loop antennas are.

Anyway thx Dell for your congratulations and I hope this thread
will lead to more real useful information about how LRL really exactly work.




@ Dave J.
> Funfunder was being serious? I thought he was mocking LRL'ers.

No, I never mockered about the whole LRL-Topic but I hate
unscientifical work. I even had a hard time with J_Player because I
did defend the theoretical possibility of LRL detection at a time
he was extremly skeptical this could be an option at all.

And seems I was absolutly on the right track if the new developments
of Morgan, Geo and Andreas turns out to be really true working!


But it has to be on a scientifical basis by evidence and empirical observation and recreatable test results!!!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_evidence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_evidence)

btw. I heard the new high capacity SD-cards already are also using
quantum-effect driven technology for permanently set the micro-data-storage-parts to 0 or 1.

Anyway, we all want proven facts and no pseudo-science or believes!

A device that doesn't work reliable is like a condom with a hole
or like a car that stops every few miles or kilometers! Almost worthless!

[Funfinder]

Hi Funfinder,
(...)
Best Wishes, :)
J_P

Hi J_P

thank you for the huge effort you made but sorry this is really a
very very long reply with many many many unsolved questions!

I can't answer many of them yet.
But it's very good you give a critical and controvers answer
so we can find out what points are more or less clear / unclear
or important.

Personally I think the used circuits (and the simple versions of
them are free available) are very simple if it comes to the
detection circuits so it also is very simple to find out what
is detected there at all!

And of course sometimes just the imbalance gets detected,
we also can see this at the small Crypton diagram.

And while EM-"radiation" is polarized most of the time vertically
horizontally or at some angle the magnetical energy is "directly"
like a pulsing beam.

Enough for the moment, perhaps I will check out what of your
questions can be answered somehow but for the moment
I wanna leave this working principle describtion as it is.

greetings

[Dedevil]

HOORAY! After all these years of my telling this forum, somebody here finally figured out that electronic LRL's, or hand held L-Rods are detecting stronger emanating Magnetic fields surrounding the target, and not the target itself. My customers have known this for the past 20 years.

For the critics it's been an exercise iof expression of the dumb & dumber, which I am sure they will continue

Congratulations Fun finder, you have a few more things to learn about LRL, but I applaud your thinking. Keep up the good works! Dell


Yes indeed Dell it's the field we detect as I explained after much frustration that an underground stream has a charge. The fields are "scalar" meaning they have magnitude and direction. Maybe now they will start to understand how the other secret LRL's are working. I think of them as similar to buying grapes at the supermarket. It is best to try before you buy, as with these detectors they try/test the field and compare this to a transmitted signal like navigation signals.

I think they are all good for LRL above ground or close to the surface but they need more work on the ground penetrating side.

rgds

[Qiaozhi]

The fields are "scalar" meaning they have magnitude and direction.
This is totally incorrect.
Scalar fields have a single number assigned to each point in the field. Whereas a vector field has a magnitude and direction assigned to each point in the field. You are confusing the two definitions.
Temperature is an example of a scalar measurement.

[Dell Winders]

The Earth's Magnetic field will collect (concentrate) around, and follow even slightly moving water. Dell

[Dedevil]

This is totally incorrect.
Scalar fields have a single number assigned to each point in the field. Whereas a vector field has a magnitude and direction assigned to each point in the field. You are confusing the two definitions.
Temperature is an example of a scalar measurement.

There the same thing just depends on what it is relative to.
eg looking from out in space the atmosphere can have numbers assigned to the area.
Back on ground the referance point is inside the scalar field and therefor can have magnitude and direction which is relative to the observers reference point within the field.
rgds

[Dedevil]

The Earth's Magnetic field will collect (concentrate) around, and follow even slightly moving water. Dell

I'll have to disagree with that one Dell. If this is so then the majority of our streams would be running n-s or s-n. The magnetic effect is fairly constant, an overall effect of the overall direction of particles in the earth. The change you see when a compass goes slightly off track over water is static gravity. I find it best to think of the earth as a multiplate capacitor with the centre as the -ve plate. It all gets confusing when you switch from conventional current to electron flow so i stick to electron flow.
The water moves from hillside stream to ocean via gravity. So what is gravity? Simply it's mass/charge, the more the mass the more the charge, and so although a stream and the oceans are both water the oceans have a bigger charge and therefor the streams with a lesser charge are attracted to the ocean. And there is a type of charge flow happening which is what distorts a compass over a river.

Think of what is a compass? It's a solid piece of metal with it's charges arranged to point in one direction. When placed on the ground it shows the overall direction of all the other substances on earth and when bought near a stream will deflect due to the electrified charges of the stream.

Have you ever tried this one; When divining a river with Lrods, stop where the L rods cross over, then stick one of them into the ground and hold the other out. It will point in the direction that the water is taking ( it's path of least resistance ) to the ocean.

Amazing that the French revolution was started by arguements on this subject.

rgds

[Dedevil]

The Geotech forum has one of the best repositories for VLF coils of this nature I have seen online, and also has quite a bit of cutting edge VLF magnetic technology being developed which has not been found in the commercial market yet.

Yes because they are using navagational signals as part of the detection.
What would happen if you sold someone a detector and then the navigational signal was shut down? I think you would want to grap your sales commission and run!

rgds

[Dedevil]

I'll have to disagree with that one Dell. If this is so then the majority of our streams would be running n-s or s-n. The magnetic effect is fairly constant, an overall effect of the overall direction of particles in the earth. The change you see when a compass goes slightly off track over water is static gravity. I find it best to think of the earth as a multiplate capacitor with the centre as the -ve plate. It all gets confusing when you switch from conventional current to electron flow so i stick to electron flow.
The water moves from hillside stream to ocean via gravity. So what is gravity? Simply it's mass/charge, the more the mass the more the charge, and so although a stream and the oceans are both water the oceans have a bigger charge and therefor the streams with a lesser charge are attracted to the ocean. And there is a type of charge flow happening which is what distorts a compass over a river.

Think of what is a compass? It's a solid piece of metal with it's charges arranged to point in one direction. When placed on the ground it shows the overall direction of all the other substances on earth and when bought near a stream will deflect due to the electrified charges of the stream.

Have you ever tried this one; When divining a river with Lrods, stop where the L rods cross over, then stick one of them into the ground and hold the other out. It will point in the direction that the water is taking ( it's path of least resistance ) to the ocean.

Amazing that the French revolution was started by arguements on this subject.

rgds


The effect is known as little g which is differnt to BIG G

[Qiaozhi]

There the same thing just depends on what it is relative to.
eg looking from out in space the atmosphere can have numbers assigned to the area.
Back on ground the referance point is inside the scalar field and therefor can have magnitude and direction which is relative to the observers reference point within the field.
rgds
Wrong!
Scalar measurements are the same for all observers.

[Dell Winders]

Along with with moving warer Iron, is another strong concentrator of the Earth's magnetic field. Dell

[J_Player]

The Earth's Magnetic field will collect (concentrate) around, and follow even slightly moving water. DellDoes this mean we should look for our compasses to shift and follow the direction of this concentrated magnetic field when we walk near the edge of a stream?
Can we turn on a garden hose and watch the compass needle turn as we move the hose closer to the compass, and move the hose to point different directions above the compass?


Best Wishes, :)
J_P

[Dedevil]

Along with with moving warer Iron, is another strong concentrator of the Earth's magnetic field. Dell

The moving iron is moving under gravitational pull not the Earths magnetic field. Otherwise the streams would run n-s or s-n. It is still under the earths magnetic field and if in a stagnent pool may swing n-s but your instruments are giving you an incorrect reading making you conclude the magnetic field is being changed. Think about it Dell.
They call it a magnetic field abnormality but it is actually not. It is a gravity abnormality.
It is called this so it is not confused with a big G "gravity" scan which is taken vertically and shows heavy and light materials under the overall effect of the Big G field.

[Dedevil]

Does this mean we should look for our compasses to shift and follow the direction of this concentrated magnetic field when we walk near the edge of a stream?
Can we turn on a garden hose and watch the compass needle turn as we move the hose closer to the compass, and move the hose to point different directions above the compass?


Best Wishes, :)

J_P

YES Simple experiment! But you do not use your everyday compass. You use a ?? I quess I would call it a de tuned compass. To cancel the earths magnetic effect ( in a mechanical way ) take one compass and physically bond it to another compass in the opposite direction, with glue. Now suspend the two needles just as you would with a normal compass. But to see the dowsings effects at work you need to clip a tiny piece of one of the needles. So you still have a compass, just a very weak one. If you move this towards a stream you will see deflection of the needle towards the flow in a horizontal direction. But it wont work vertically! This a different system again.

[Dedevil]

Wrong!
Scalar measurements are the same for all observers.

Take for example being in outer space and looking at the atmosphere of the earth. Give it a scale of 1-10 and take a refernce point of 5. You can divide the atmosphere up into numbers from 1-10 take it to binary and give the numbers colors. As an observer from outerspace you see a colorfull picture. Now go to ground level and stand in a 1 zone and the observed colors are completly differnt. Two different observers and two differnt pictures.

It's simply relative!

[Qiaozhi]

Take for example being in outer space and looking at the atmosphere of the earth. Give it a scale of 1-10 and take a refernce point of 5. You can divide the atmosphere up into numbers from 1-10 take it to binary and give the numbers colors. As an observer from outerspace you see a colorfull picture. Now go to ground level and stand in a 1 zone and the observed colors are completly differnt. Two different observers and two differnt pictures.

It's simply relative!
Clearly you do not understand the difference between a scalar and a vector. :frown:

[Dedevil]

Clearly you do not understand the difference between a scalar and a vector. :frown:

Yes actually i do understand and think you have not one bit of understanding of the theory of relativiity.

TRY going back to school with JP. BABY!

[J_Player]

I explained after much frustration that an underground stream has a charge. The fields are "scalar" meaning they have magnitude and direction. Maybe now they will start to understand how the other secret LRL's are working.

Originally postd by Qiahozi
Clearly you do not understand the difference between a scalar and a vector. :frown:

Originally postd by Dedevil
Yes actually i do understand and think you have not one bit of understanding of the theory of relativiity.

TRY going back to school with JP. BABY!What school should we go to where we can learn that a scalars have magnitude and direction?
All the schools I know of teach that scalars don't have magnitude and direction -- even high schools.
I can't find a school which teaches that scalars have magnitude and direction, but I know where to find hungscience and BS. :rolleyes:

Are you spreading made-up hungscience BS, or is there a school we can go that teaches how scalars have magnitude and direction?


Best Wishes, :)
J_P

[Qiaozhi]

Yes actually i do understand and think you have not one bit of understanding of the theory of relativiity.

TRY going back to school with JP. BABY!
As you appear to be having some difficulty understanding the concept of a scalar field, let me explain one last time.
A scalar field is a function that gives us a single value of some variable for every point in space. An example of a scalar is temperature.

On the other hand:
A vector possesses both a magnitude and a direction in space. Examples of vectors are velocity, momentum, acceleration and the force associated with an object.

I would advise you to stop quoting the theory of relativity until you have a grasp of classical physics. The Ladybird Junior Science Book might be a good starting point. :razz:

[Dell Winders]

How Childish! You guys will argue about anything to try to make a stupid point. Dell

[J_Player]

How Childish! You guys will argue about anything to try to make a stupid point. DellChildish?
What point are you talking about? The only points Mr. Devil showed us are on the tips of his horns.

Mr. Devil told us to go to school to learn that scalars have magnitude and direction... but no schools teach this.
It appears Mr. Devil is a pretend (fake) scientist who frequents this forum with his own style of BS.
What is childish about asking Mr. Devil what school teaches this pretend science that he insists is correct?

Dell, you said "I have never seen a Science that was faked. Only, pretend (fake) scientist who frequent this forum with their own style of BS".
Then you proceeded to tell us about your science.
You told us: "The Earth's Magnetic field will collect (concentrate) around, and follow even slightly moving water".

Is this your demonstration of how a self-professed LRL expert is a pretend (fake) scientist who frequents this forum with his own style of BS?
Or can you answer simple questions that you ignored about your alleged "concentrated magnetic field" around moving water?

Does this mean we should look for our compasses to shift and follow the direction of this concentrated magnetic field when we walk near the edge of a stream?
Can we turn on a garden hose and watch the compass needle turn as we move the hose closer to the compass, and move the hose to point different directions above the compass?

Best Wishes, :)
J_P

[Funfinder]

Talking about "higher physics"...

The problem of scientific experiments on earth is that those experiences are not influence free!

Theres a difference if you wheigh 1 liter of milk in the kitchen or in the bathroom under water.
Or if you work with water above (even as steam) or below freezing point.
Or: you can't see weak-bright stars if you're living in a huge city but only a few of the most bright ones.
(so you will get just a distorted, partially or wrong reality from your observation or (scientifical) tests...)


The experiments on earth have to deal with:

temperature
pressure
gravitation
radiation of all kind incl. static fields
air
and other stuff


One very mysterious force as example is gravitation. Its possible to shield the magnetic field through iron etc. but so far it was not possible to shield a thing from gravitation - only by huge distance this force is reducable.

In orbit an object needs a speed of 8km per second to create the needed amount of centrifugal force to create a pseudo zero gravity, because without the centrifugal counterforce the shuttle or satellite or whatever would still fall down.

Next we have already the proof that light gets attracted by gravity force. If the ray of light from a very distant star crosses near a heavy object it will get distracted (bended).

Why? Because light has weight, it consist of partical-wave quantums!
Or seen more simple: light consists of highspeed moving electrons which still have a weight!

However scientifically there is no doubt that not just substancial things are getin attracted by gravity (huge amounts of substance) but also electromagnetical energy!

btw. if light goes through vacuum (outer space) it has to be a radiated partical-wave package because there is no agens or ether that could get in oscillation/pulsation by wave-only out there.


The problem was that science and scientifical experimentation has started on the earths surface and not in an influence-free environment.


If we are talking about LRLs which are so high senstitive that they can detect a 1.5v battery spark from 2 meters distance then its extremly important to reduce all kind of negative interfering parameters!

As example I am no friend of testing such devices by holding in the hand and walking around!

Those should be mounted for tests on large wooden rods or lightweight planks so there's at least a 5 meter distance.

And for finding out what they're exactly detecting there have to
be frequency etc. filters before or inside the antenna-system.




And please don't talk here about scalar-waves because those
are part of "para-science" like tesla-waves, free energy, orgon-energy, tachyons, kirlian-aura wave, anti-gravitation generators, time-machines and other fantastic pseudo-science-stuff.


In earlier times I really was interested in the Philadelphia and Montauk Project, in pyramid-energy, in parapsychological forces like mental waves that could cause thought transmission or cause plants having panic if someone nearby thinks about destroying them etc. pp. but this whole field is totally unsecure concerning scientifical proofs and therefore I don't like it anymore. btw. I also hate religions and astrology etc. because it's totally the same rubbish! There exists some institutes that want to investigate some of those phenomenons (the famoust is the Society for Psychical Research (SPR) in Kensington, London, UK, existing since 1882) by scientifical methods but the results are not that clear as they should even after thousands of tests. In the beginning they started with chasing ghosts at haunted castles (England is full of them :lol: ) and I'm shure they also wanted to find out how dowsing exactly works but... - so far not much luck!


All this esoterical and paranormal stuff may be quite entertaining, exciting or thrilling if you spent a night without light at a poltergeist-house but it has no use for real reliable working long range treasure locating!

If you find treasures with a pendulum and a treasure map go for it but I'm 100% sure that 99.99999 % of all people who try it will not have success with this method, otherwise all kind of treasures would have been lifted since ages!

btw. the most evil scam are clairvoyants and mentalists that offer their help - of course for a large amount of money - if a person is missing or suspected as dead or murdered!

You can ask all those desperate parents or relatives how high was the success-rate with those quacks and false hope makers! Near Zero! :(

They are the same useless as fortune-tellers that are too stupid to tell the next lottery-numbers! :( All just betrayers or self-betrayers that think they have some higher kind of perception but they have nothing than malice, depravity and illusions in their sick minds! Many of them even think they would have a personal contact with some kind of gods or higher spirits - how ridiculous!


the upshot of all this is:

- we need scientifical work and experiments on an as good as influence-free and therefore really reliable test- and recognition basis

- after dozens of years we should know by now what is real science (because it leads to reliable and working results!) and what is pseodoscience, esoterical nonsense or self-betraying

- we shouldn't waste our precious time with the always again and again remaining unclear questions but starting the needed tests and discovery-experiments to find out what is really going on!
(per instance if the LRL beeps at location A but doesn't beep at location B and this is repeatable all the time, we have a starting point to begin with the investigation ...why it beeps! Or is this simple method already too complicated to understand ???)

- we really should start to sue LRL producers their *ss off if those can't provide scientifical proven and reliable device test results! Either they sell good and reliable working stuff or nothing at all!
Their have to be laws established that the proof compulsory for such critical or highly suspicious products lies at the producer and not by the customers! And if the producer is unable to provide those needed certificates he can go to hell or to jail! This should clear the muddy water!

[Mike(Mont)]

You forgot map dowsers and remote viewers. LOL And I would agree there is too much wriggle room in interpretation of the results from both. That's beyond the ethereal. I can't understand the perverse thrill up your leg you skeptics get from putting down LRL's. It's a true malady of the soul you have. You spend thousands of hours trying to convince others of something you do not know. Beyond help you are.

[J_Player]

You forgot map dowsers and remote viewers. LOL And I would agree there is too much wriggle room in interpretation of the results from both. That's beyond the ethereal. I can't understand the perverse thrill up your leg you skeptics get from putting down LRL's. It's a true malady of the soul you have. You spend thousands of hours trying to convince others of something you do not know. Beyond help you are.Hi Mike(Mont),
You did not read the posts very well.
Nobody put down LRLs in this thread.
In fact we were discussing the details of LRLs when we were interrupted by an LRL salesman and his companion the devil, who both posted false information that they expect us to accept to be the truth.

We were simply asking questions from their pretend (fake) science.
But it seems they are not capable of answering questions about their fake science.
Apparently they want us to believe their BS without asking any questions.

Maybe you can answer the questions that the LRL salesman and his companion the devil can't answer:
1. Where can we find a school that teaches how scalars have magnitude and direction as the devil says they do?
2. Can we expect our compass needle to shift and follow the direction of the alleged concentrated magnetic field around moving water when we walk near the edge of a stream?
3. Can we turn on a garden hose and watch the compass needle turn as we move the hose closer to the compass, and move the hose to point different directions above the compass?

Anyone with common sense would think that none of the above is true.
Yet the LRL salesman and the devil posted this false information which seems like it was designed to promote LRL sales.
You know --- Get stupid and believe crazy stuff, then maybe you will buy my junk.
Do you think they told us correct information, or are they simply pretend (fake) scientists who frequent this forum with their own style of BS. :shrug:


Best Wishes, :)
J_P

[Dedevil]

Hi Mike(Mont),

Maybe you can answer the questions that the LRL salesman and his companion the devil can't answer:
1. Where can we find a school that teaches how scalars have magnitude and direction as the devil says they do?
2. Can we expect our compass needle to shift and follow the direction of the alleged concentrated magnetic field around moving water when we walk near the edge of a stream?
3. Can we turn on a garden hose and watch the compass needle turn as we move the hose closer to the compass, and move the hose to point different directions above the compass?

Anyone with common sense would think that none of the above is true.
Yet the LRL salesman and the devil posted this false information which seems like it was designed to promote LRL sales.
You know --- Get stupid and believe crazy stuff, then maybe you will buy my junk.
Do you think they told us correct information, or are they simply pretend (fake) scientists who frequent this forum with their own style of BS. :shrug:


Best Wishes, :)
J_P

Ok If I am full of BS then show me. I gave very easy explanation of how to make a weak magnet. Did you build this and test it.

Please post a video of your engineering skills and that the weak compass did not deflect.
I do not have to post the video as i have a divining rod that proves me that it works, but you are doubtful so please bring on your expert video of how it doesn't work.
OR you are just a full of BS time waster.

[Dedevil]

[QUOTE=Funfinder;145142]Talking about "higher physics"...

The problem of scientific experiments on earth is that those experiences are not influence free!

Theres a difference if you wheigh 1 liter of milk in the kitchen or in the bathroom under water.
Or if you work with water above (even as steam) or below freezing point.
Or: you can't see weak-bright stars if you're living in a huge city but only a few of the most bright ones.
(so you will get just a distorted, partially or wrong reality from your observation or (scientifical) tests...)


The experiments on earth have to deal with:

temperature
pressure
gravitation
radiation of all kind incl. static fields
air
and other stuff


One very mysterious force as example is gravitation. Its possible to shield the magnetic field through iron etc. but so far it was not possible to shield a thing from gravitation - only by huge distance this force is reducable.


Ha Who made him GURU? HA!! Cant be done?

It's as simple as blowing up a balloon, a kids game.

Your not a guru, your a F-

[Dedevil]

[QUOTE=Funfinder;145142]Talking about "higher physics"...


And please don't talk here about scalar-waves because those
are part of "para-science" like tesla-waves, free energy, orgon-energy, tachyons, kirlian-aura wave, anti-gravitation generators, time-machines and other fantastic pseudo-science-stuff.




All this esoterical and paranormal stuff is extremely interesting, exciting and thrilling and if you learn science and understand it, you can use it use for real reliable working long range treasure locating!

Quote
btw. the most evil scam are clairvoyants and mentalists that offer their help - of course for a large amount of money - if a person is missing or suspected as dead or murdered!
Unquote

He's lost. Fk him, I for one aint searching for him.

Leave him behind!:lol:

[J_Player]

Ok If I am full of BS then show me. I gave very easy explanation of how to make a weak magnet. Did you build this and test it.
We already did show you...
Here are your words: "I explained after much frustration that an underground stream has a charge.
The fields are "scalar" meaning they have magnitude and direction.
Maybe now they will start to understand how the other secret LRL's are working".
Read Where you posted that BS here: http://www.longrangelocators.com/forums/showpost.php?p=145055&postcount=11

Even high school students know scalars don't have magnitude and direction, while you posted further BS to tell people to go to school if they don't believe your BS about scalars.
Well guess what?
There are no schools which teach your fake science.
Anyone who went to school would know that. (You went to school, right?)
Your scalar BS is wrong, the same as your explanation that we can understand secret LRLs if only we will believe your fake scalar science explanations.

Yes, you are posting BS which is commonly known around here as hungscience.
It includes fake science statements which even high school students know are wrong, and fake theories which are professed to be facts instead of made-up theories.

I asked a simple question from Dell which he can't answer.
Then you answered for him with more of your fake BS stories telling how to glue compasses together and cut parts off so they are no longer a compass.
You need to find someone stupid to follow those suggestions.
Nobody here believes your non-working hungscience is worthwhile way to waste their time.
Let's see if anyone is stupid enough to hack up some compasses to prove flowing water concentrates a strong magnetic field around it... any takers? http://www.geotech1.com/forums/images/smilies/roll.gif
Maybe hung will do it for you -- He believes you have a great scientific approach! :rolleyes:



Have you found anyone who agrees with your BS that scalars have magnitude and direction?
hung, maybe?

Can we learn your idea of science at a school like the one we see below?

[Dell Winders]

Your accusation is false. I make no claims, or pretense, to being a Scientist. I do however read Scientific publications for information.


Excerpt from "Science News"; "The Earth's Magnetic field will
follow even slightly moving water".

And Yes' I have twice witnessed a compass connected to an LRL point the direction of a Silver target. It has been done.

QUESTION: Will a Magnetometer detect underground cavities? Dell

[J_Player]

Your accusation is false. I make no claims, or pretense, to being a Scientist. I do however read Scientific publications for information.

Excerpt from "Science News"; "The Earth's Magnetic field will
follow even slightly moving water".

And Yes' I have twice witnessed a compass connected to an LRL point the direction of a Silver target. It has been done.

QUESTION: Will a Magnetometer detect underground cavities? DellDell, Why are you posting more of your BS?
Nobody asked you about silver, or compasses connected to LRLs, or magnetometers detecting underground cavities. :nono:

You made a claim: "The Earth's Magnetic field will collect (concentrate) around, and follow even slightly moving water. Dell".
Read where you posted your claim here: http://www.longrangelocators.com/forums/showpost.php?p=145062&postcount=13

Nobody made any false accusations against you. :nono:
I stated a fact: "I asked a simple question from Dell which he can't answer".

The questions you can't answer are:
Does this mean we should look for our compasses to shift and follow the direction of this concentrated magnetic field when we walk near the edge of a stream?
Can we turn on a garden hose and watch the compass needle turn as we move the hose closer to the compass, and move the hose to point different directions above the compass?

Can we observe your alleged "concentrated magnetic field around flowing water" with an ordinary compass needle or not?
(Hint: Yes or no works. Another BS answer will demonstrate how you don't know what you're talking about).


Best Wishes, :)
J_P

[Funfinder]

Seems the certainty of some LRL producers and promoters is a result of the feedback they get for their products...

Comparable with the happy old grannys that are talking with astrologers through expensive TV etc. phone-calls. No wonder!

We do have here a "chain of deception" and those who don't understand the whole believe-system behind reaffirm their mentors or wahtsoever providers, may it be LRLs or priests of all those nonprovable religious stuff! Especially if there's alot money involved those charlatans see it is some kind of proof that what they are doing would be full justified because otherwise it wouldn't be rewarded with such high amounts of wealth and money!

And also often we do have betrayed betrayers that simply don't know it any better - persons that have simply learned and accepted illusional things! The churches are full of those blind leaders and those even think they are proceeding on some kind of "holy path".


Of course those betrayed betrayers - if innocent or guilty doesn't matter - have very bad luck if they meet persons who see through the whole swindle!

And thats the case here!


As long as whoever that works or produces or defends or promotes etc. any kind of LRL can't provide scientific hard facts and reprovable test results he will have a problem here!

Because here are people that are not the weak prey of those who think that with some shiny words everything would be done!



@ Mike(Mont)
> You forgot map dowsers and remote viewers.

No, I didn't. Those "gifted" mediums use maps and pendulums to locate the missing persons but the end-results are just vague and unsatisfiying. All they do is rip off the money of the already suffering relatives and play with their sad n desperate hopes!


> I can't understand the perverse thrill up your leg you skeptics get from putting down LRL's.

Nonsense. I just can speak for myself, I'm just very critical and don't wanna be fooled by false claims. I doubt you would believe in UFOs without hard evidence.

Perhaps the LRL-fanatics are paranoid the skeptics could destroy their illusions or business so thats why they react so strange.

If you defend your LRL stuff you have to convince others by real acceptable information but in 99% this seems to be impossible.

Especially in this forum. This is no buttery-ride here where you can sell heating-blankets to old pensioners or overpriced miracle treasure LRL machines!


Since 2006 no single LRL-devotee here was able to provide solid data, only a few electronical experimentors like Morgan, Geo and Andreas gave some expression that it could work...

Here we have electronical and physic-experimental skilled people and no kindergarten that could be impressed by a muscle-moved dowsing rod!


@ Dedevil
You're nick-name says already everything - you are the product of a stupid faith-system! If the flash will strike you while LRL dowsing sometime this was not god or the devil who wanna punish you for your sins but just your own stupidity using such a device if the weather wasn't that pretty! :lol:

> Your not a guru, your a F-
And you're just a stupid A- that can't bear the truth because the devil is a liar anyway (at least for those poor brainwashed types who believe in the devil). So f- off devil and go to hell or I will exorcize the guts outta ya in the name of grandmaster-satan :lol:


@ Dell Winders

Please don't seduce J_P to hijack this thread into a discussion without any scientifcal content! I'm so tired about those neverending argumentations without any substance that stands on solid ground!

Travel to Japan and show your LRLs to the engineers of Sony or other hitec companys and they will tell you for free on what electronical priniciples those are working or not working. After that you may post the results here.

Of course streaming water can deflect a compass-needle - especially if this water contains enough mineralization!
And if the field distortion is massive enough a compass needle also may react over a buried metal object.


@ J_P
Don't you see it is completly useless to discuss with Dell Winders at such an unscientific basis, as long as he doesn't provide reprovable recognitions? Perhaps he is a genius that find something out interesting by "LRL-experimentation" but this is only acceptable if it really works on a testable basis and not just at self-deception-basis as it is with alot dowsers!

Put 50 convinced dowsers into a class-room with closed boxes and they will recognise how reliable their technique is in reality! You wouldn't believe how imaginative those are in finding excuses if they have to explain why the result is far below or only near the random-probability. But I talked about the psychological mechanisms of all this stuff already at the very beginning of this post.

You can't heal mentally stoned persons that are fully rise into their self-deception-concept. It's like with christian martyrs - they rather wanna die than abjure their "life-important" conviction.

So better don't bother with them and let them spoil their own lifes by their delusions as long as they don't betray or harm others with their intrigues and moneywasting fairytale-machines!

I say it loud and clear:
I am not a stubborn LRL-skeptic - I'm open to many kinds of view and even at the first look implausible looking information, but I demand all this stuff has to be built up on a solid basis so finally it leads to REALLY WORKING RESULTS!



@ Dell Winders and anyone that thinks having a real working LRL - it is so simple:

Imagine that you are in front of some patent-lawyer and you have scientifically to describe why and how you think the product you wanna patent really works! If you can't do this please just forget about this thread and look for naive sheeps that are eating out of your hand by just waving with your LRL in the other hand!

As example you just need to provide some very basic electronical schematics where you think those explain the LRL-detection - this also approves to any other LRL fetishist who thinks he knows what's really going on and why his detector must work! The topic here still is "LRL working principle"


Good luck! :)

[Dell Winders]

LRL does not work according to electronics. LRL's work according to physics. No electronics are necessary for them to work. Electronics are often added to provide manual control, or frequency discrimination. Jp's arguments, and yours, regarding electronics is irrelevant. Dell

[J_Player]

Originally posted by Funfinder:
Seems the certainty of some LRL producers and promoters is a result of the feedback they get for their products...
Comparable with the happy old grannys that are talking with astrologers through expensive TV etc. phone-calls. No wonder!
This is the reason why Dell is here. He is an LRL manufacturer and salesman.
His products do not include the fully electronic locators you are discussing, so he came to hijack the thread and divert it to MFD and L-rods which he manufactures and sells.
Dell has been caught hijacking other threads to promote his products.

Originally posted by Funfinder:
Don't you see it is completly useless to discuss with Dell Winders at such an unscientific basis, as long as he doesn't provide reprovable recognitions?
Perhaps he is a genius that find something out interesting by "LRL-experimentation" but this is only acceptable if it really works on a testable basis and not just at self-deception-basis as it is with alot dowsers!
Dell demonstrated his products during a test which showed a general failure of the LRL equipment he was demonstrating.
Dell then proceeded to lie about failing the test.
He made false claims against the witnesses at the test, and failed to produce any evidence to show his lies were true.
This is well documented in international websites and forums.

It is similar to his lie where he tells us water will concentrate a magnetic field around it.
The best he can do is to dredge up an out-of-context snippet from an ancient magazine article to try to convince us.
He is unable to show us this article with the full text so we can see what it really says.
But we can check it out for ourselves at any of the university physics website to find the truth about Dell's alleged magnetic fields concentrating around water or treasures and other BS he is posting here.
Any authoritative source will tell you you water does not concentrate magnetic fields.
Or simply check with a magnetometer and see for yourself if you can locate a water hose with running water like you can locate an iron water pipe which actually does concentrate magnetic fields.
Dell has been busted. Water does not concentrate magnetic fields. :nono:

Originally posted by Funfinder:
So better don't bother with them and let them spoil their own lifes by their delusions as long as they don't betray or harm others with their intrigues and moneywasting fairytale-machines!
The problem is Dell is not simply displaying his intrigues and fairtytale-machines.
Why would Dell want us to believe this false information?
Because this is the basis he uses to sell his products.
If you haven't noticed, Dell is posting salesman BS which is not true.
It's not much different than when a politician or a used car salesman tells you some BS which you later learn is not true.
When people read this BS, a few of them may actually believe it is true.
Then, we see another person waste his money on more non-working junk from a greedy LRL salesman.
Who would pay $1395 for a swiveling rod and a MFD generator when they can build one that functions exactly the same for $13.95 shown in this forum?
Only someone who will believe Dell's BS that water, gold, and gemstones concentrate a magnetic field, and the best equipment to locate it can be bought from Dell Winders.

Is it a waste of time to argue with Dell?
Not for me.
When an LRL salesman comes here and spreads false information in hopes of selling his products, I think it's a good idea to show him for what he really is.

http://www.longrangelocators.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=17850&stc=1&d=1327337460

Carl made a place in this forum for LRL salesmen and manufacturers to advertise their products free here: http://www.longrangelocators.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=66
But Dell chooses to talk about electronic things he knows nothing about, in hopes he can capture naive customers, rather than to advertise his junk in the Buy/Sell section.
Look at what he posted - it was clearly designed to support his own products, not the experimental electronic locators we are discussing.

Originally posted by Dell Winders:
"LRL does not work according to electronics. LRL's work according to physics.
No electronics are necessary for them to work.
Electronics are often added to provide manual control, or frequency discrimination.
Jp's arguments, and yours, regarding electronics is irrelevant. Dell"

Dell's BS would have you think that Morgan or Geo could take the circuit boards out of their experimental LRLs and they would still work, but without the help of the electronics.
But this is a lie. :nono:
Electronics are necessary for Morgan's and Geo's experimental locators to work.
Their receivers would get no signal at all if you removed the electronics.
People who read this forum should know this, so they don't get the idea that a dowsing rod with an electronic buzzer works the same as a VLF TX-RX set.

Advice for Dell Winders:
Go home Dell,
Advertise your bogus junk somewhere else.


Best Wishes, http://www.longrangelocators.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=17211&stc=1&d=1319565439
J_P

[Dedevil]

How Childish! You guys will argue about anything to try to make a stupid point. Dell

Yeh because Q is always wrong.:lol:

[Dedevil]

Classical picture of JP and Funfinder trying to work it out!
Any suggestions for "The caption?"

I think ??? I had better not say Q will just delete it:lol:

[Dedevil]

Your accusation is false. I make no claims, or pretense, to being a Scientist. I do however read Scientific publications for information.


Excerpt from "Science News"; "The Earth's Magnetic field will
follow even slightly moving water".

And Yes' I have twice witnessed a compass connected to an LRL point the direction of a Silver target. It has been done.

QUESTION: Will a Magnetometer detect underground cavities? Dell

I think it depends alot on what substance is in the cavity Dell.
If it is a gas filled cavity there are alot of things like temp and humidity to consider which make it harder. But it will have an overall charge different to another spot. So depending on the size of the cavity the magnetometer may not be hand held but rather two widely seperated listening devices. A similar wide spread method gets used for gas/oil with an small explosive and microphones scattered across the sea floor.
rgds

[Dell Winders]

QUESTION: Will a Magnetometer detect underground AIR cavities?

Yes, I know the answer from much field experience.

I just wanted to know if the pretend Scientist bozos with no field experience who harass LRL users on this forum would know without having to run an Internet, or obsolete text book search for an answer that fits their agenda. Dell

[Carl-NC]

QUESTION: Will a Magnetometer detect underground AIR cavities?

Yes, I know the answer from much field experience.

Of course a magnetometer won't detect underground air cavities. It may, however, detect magnetic field anomalies caused by variations in ground mineralization, which an air cavity may or may not cause. Silly rabbit.

[Dell Winders]

Carl, your ignorance is showing, again. Dell

[Funfinder]

J_P wrote:
Is it a waste of time to argue with Dell?
Not for me.
When an LRL salesman comes here and spreads false information in hopes of selling his products, I think it's a good idea to show him for what he really is.


OK, then in this case why acting so inkonsequently?
As you describe it Dell Winders is a criminal that cunningly betrayes poor people from
Florida and other countries that doesn't know it any better.

Its your duty as an american citizen that respects law and justice to REALLY help that such persons get what they deserve. So stop your kind and useless discussion in this forum finally against Dell and solve this whole problem on a real working basis and with the help of respected authorities.

Especially because it seems to be clear that your smalltalk with Dell since many years brought no results at all!

Otherwise he couldn't make such crazy statements that physics has nothing to do with electronics! :lol:

[J_Player]

J_P wrote:
Is it a waste of time to argue with Dell?
Not for me.
When an LRL salesman comes here and spreads false information in hopes of selling his products, I think it's a good idea to show him for what he really is.


OK, then in this case why acting so inkonsequently?
As you describe it Dell Winders is a criminal that cunningly betrayes poor people from
Florida and other countries that doesn't know it any better.

Its your duty as an american citizen that respects law and justice to REALLY help that such persons get what they deserve. So stop your kind and useless discussion in this forum finally against Dell and solve this whole problem on a real working basis and with the help of respected authorities.

Especially because it seems to be clear that your smalltalk with Dell since many years brought no results at all!

Otherwise he couldn't make such crazy statements that physics has nothing to do with electronics! :lol:WRONG!
I never said Dell is a criminal!
As far as I know, Dell is not a criminal.
In the USA it is not a crime to post false information in a forum.
Dell can post any false claim in the longrangelocator forum that he wants, as long as he is prepared to have that claim challenged.
That is one of the rules for this forum.
Even Carl thinks it's a good idea to challenge Dell's BS.
Wanna see a whole lotta links to forum posts where Carl showed him for what he is?

It brought no results at all?
Well, Carl has been challenging Dell's BS for a lot longer than this forum existed, and the result I see is fewer cases where people waste their money buying junk equipment or believing pseudoscience.
In case you didn't know, Geotech1 and the longrangelocator forum are where a lot of people read to get an idea of what works to find buried metals.
I have witnessed people who came here and asked about equipment, then got answers which helped them determine what equipment they want to buy.
The posts which demonstrate what is real information compared to what is only false LRL sales BS that is not factual helps these people to make informed decisions.

In my opinion, the results are that it helps people to avoid wasting thousands of dollars on bogus equipment.


Best Wishes, :)
J_P

[J_Player]

...So stop your kind and useless discussion in this forum finally against Dell and solve this whole problem on a real working basis and with the help of respected authorities.
Hi Funfinder,
I don't see the problem to solve for a real working basis.
I have already pointed out that I don't see any evidence in your post that you solved the reason why LRLs are reacting to distant metal targets.
What I saw your this post is more speculation.
And I posted a lot of reference data to support it.

However, it is hard to find the posts concerning your points because they are obfuscated by a flood of posts about magnetic water, air cavities and scalars by Dell and his companion, the Devil.
Here are some links to posts which are actually pertinent to the discussion topic you started:
http://www.longrangelocators.com/forums/showpost.php?p=145026&postcount=1
http://www.longrangelocators.com/forums/showpost.php?p=145043&postcount=3
http://www.longrangelocators.com/forums/showpost.php?p=145054&postcount=10
http://www.longrangelocators.com/forums/showpost.php?p=145142&postcount=30

You can use these links as a reference to show what problems about a real basis you want to ask.


Best Wishes, :)
J_P