Geomental Signal-Phony

[J_Player]

It's time to see some real evidence that an MFD user is detecting an electromagnetic signal, or a magnetic signal, or an electric signal, as claimed.

An electromagnetic signal has an electric component and a magnetic component.
We know this is true because we have been measuring electromagnetic signals for many decades.
The smallest of electromagnetic signals can be detected by electronic receivers which are set to pick up the electric or magnetic component of the signal.
It is as simple as setting the frequency of the receiver to the same frequency of the signal and measuring how strong the signal is.
If this signal is stronger in a line between the receiver and the buried treasure, then we will be able to tune the stronger signal when we place the receiver antenna in the path of this signal line.

But the advances of modern electronics also allow us to locate extremely small purely magnetic signals, whether they are fluctuating, or static magnetic fields.
And these electronic advances also allow us to measure extremely small static electric field variations when we take the proper precautions to shield stray noise from the sensors.

So here is the question for anyone who claims the MFD treasure signal line is electric, or magnetic, or electromagnetic:
Tell us what electric or magnetic or electromagnetic signal we should measure to locate this MFD signal line.
Tell us the exact frequency we should set our receiver for, or tell us what strength of a static electric or static magnetic field variation we should look for.
Also tell us what calibrated electronic instruments we can use to make our measurements of the alleged signal line field.
(Note: A dowsing rod is not a calibrated electronic instrument).

I am not interested in hearing about some story or article you read.
I want to hear an actual MFD user's report of their own experience of showing evidence that they measured a signal line which we can also easily measure with electronic instruments.
I want to see some real evidence that this signal line can be measured as an electric, magnetic, or electromagnetic signal when using real electronic instruments that detect these signals.

If I do not see an answer which allows me to use electronic instruments to measure the signal line, then I will presume the signal line for MFD treasure signals is geomental rather than geophysical.


Best wishes, :)
J_P

[Geo]

maybe the answer is copywrite protected.... who knows

Regards:)

[J_Player]

maybe the answer is copywrite protected.... who knows

Regards:)Does this mean the signal is geomental, not geophysical? http://www.geotech1.com/forums/images/smilies/remember.gif


Best wishes,
J_P

[Geo]

I don't understand what you mean geomental

Regards:cool:

[J_Player]

I don't understand what you mean geomental

Regards:cool:Geomental?
This means that the properties of a signal line cannot be measured as a physical signal using standard electronic equipment to measure a physical signal which is magnetic, or electric, or electromagnetic.
Since we are assured that the signal line exists by MFD users, then the signal must be a non-physical signal which is perceived only in the mind.
If this signal exists only in the mind of the persons who perceive it, then we can call it a mental signal line.

Here are several examples to explain what a geomental signal is:
Qiaozhi has given one definition of a geomental signal = "trick of the mind".
But perhaps there is no trick in the mind... maybe it is very real in the mind, like a dream.
Then it is still a signal which cannot be measured when using standard electronic equipment.
Or maybe the signal line exists similar to Santa Claus. -- Santa Claus is very real in the mind of some people.
But Santa is not found on the radar dishes when making an electronic search for a flying man and reindeers traveling in the sky.

This is what I mean geomental.
The signal line cannot be shown to exist when we attempt to measure it as a geophysical signal which is electric, magnetic, or electromagnetic, as claimed.
The signal line can only be shown to exist in the mind of the person who perceives the signal line.
So we can call it a geomental signal line, but not a geophysical signal line.

But maybe I am wrong.
Maybe the signal line is not a geomental signal.
Maybe it can be measured to be an electric or magnetic or electromagnetic signal when we use electronic instruments to measure a geophysical signal.
Can you show how we can measure it to be an electric or magnetic or electromagnetic signal using electronic instruments?


Best wishes, :)
J_P

[Geo]

Hi J_P.
Maybe there is way to measure the field (line).
But now it is not time, i must go for sleep:angry:.
After 5 hours i must travel 400Km...:angry:

Regards:)

[goldfinder]

Hi J_P.
Maybe there is way to measure the field (line).
But now it is not time, i must go for sleep:angry:.
After 5 hours i must travel 400Km...:angry:

Regards:)
In testing several MFD type LRLs I used standard measurement apparatus such as oscilloscopes, magnetic detectors, grid dip meter, and other em measurement devices. More than 3 feet there was no measurable signal with my instrumentation. Now that doesn't mean there was no signal line but it does mean that if there was no signal my instruments could measure it. It also means there was no electronic instrument likely to measure it as I was looking for signals in the pico watts/meter with some of my special circuitry.
Goldfinder

[J_Player]

In testing several MFD type LRLs I used standard measurement apparatus such as oscilloscopes, magnetic detectors, grid dip meter, and other em measurement devices. More than 3 feet there was no measurable signal with my instrumentation. Now that doesn't mean there was no signal line but it does mean that if there was no signal my instruments could measure it. It also means there was no electronic instrument likely to measure it as I was looking for signals in the pico watts/meter with some of my special circuitry.
GoldfinderHi Goldfinder,
I have also tried to measure a gold signal line when using a calibrated picoammeter inserted in the front end of various FET sensors designed to detect very tiny variations in the air.
I also found no measurable signal.
It did not matter whether I was measuring frequencies, electric charge variations, or magnetic field variations.
There was no measurable evidence of a signal line.
Yet we are told this signal line has enough power in it to cause rods to swing against the force of gravity.

Rather than to say the signal does not exist, I prefer to think it could exist as a non-physical signal.
There is a good probability that not all things exist as physical things.
For example, an idea, or a concept is not a physical thing.
But an idea can cause a physical reaction.
For example, someone yells "fire" inside a theater.
Then immediately hundreds of people get up and run toward the exits.
The actual idea signal that something is wrong cannot be measured as a concept, but the resulting physical evidence of brain chemistry and biological emergency metabolism and physical motion can be measured.
So we say a non-physical, mental idea in the mind caused a physical reaction.

Another example is a mathematical concept is not a physical thing, but is only an idea that was conceptualize to use as a tool for quantifying things.
And mathematics, even though it is not a physical thing, can cause physical reactions, such as decide to physically attempt to recover a gold bar when your mathematics concept calculates that you would be better off to have the gold bar in your possession rather than to leave it buried for someone else to recover.

But not all ideas and concepts are conscious.
Some are subliminal or subconscious ideas.
Suppose an unseen mental signal line could form in a path between the treasure and the MFD user.
Then this mental signal line which is perceived as a subconscious idea can cause his arm muscles to move the rods toward the signal line.
We could consider the mental signal line contains an idea, not a physical field that can be measured.
The signal line is just a line-shaped location in the air where you receive a subconscious idea when you are in the path of the line.
This subconscious idea, of course is what causes your muscles to move the rods, without you knowing why because it was subconscious.
Think about it...
This could explain why people think there is some foreign force causing their rods to move.
They would have no clue their muscles caused the rods to move as a result of subconscious ideas they are not aware are in their mind.

Isn't this the kind of mechanism we see in MFD detecting?
Doesn't it begin to appear that the actual signal line works as a subconscious idea signal rather than a geophysical signal?
Isn't this what all the physical evidence suggests?

Of course we must keep in mind that when the MFD user does not know where the buried target object is located, then something will be missing from this "geomental" signal line which prevents him from locating the target when there are witnesses watching. :rolleyes:

Best wishes,
J_P

[Astrodetect]

Hi JP
In my opinion, I think that you cant measure this signal line passively, it is too small.
But if you use a TX-RX instrument which resonates in a specific frequenct and balanced delicately, when you are in the vicinity of the buried object, it will upset this delicate balance so in this way you can locate it.
Thanks

[J_Player]

Hi JP
In my opinion, I think that you cant measure this signal line passively, it is too small.
But if you use a TX-RX instrument which resonates in a specific frequenct and balanced delicately, when you are in the vicinity of the buried object, it will upset this delicate balance so in this way you can locate it.
ThanksHi Astrodetect,
I am not asking about a signal that people find by using a TX-RX locator.
I am talking about a signal line which is claimed to propagate when a person holds a dowsing rod and has an MFD oscillator running.
I have read claims that a signal line will propagate in the air between an MFD oscillator and the buried treasure.
The users of an MFD oscillator say they can detect this invisible signal line.
Then they follow it through the air to find the treasure.

This is not the same as using a TX-RX electronic machine which is said to locate from any direction.
They say they are detecting the line in the air where the signal is traveling between the oscillator and he buried treasure.
It is similar to following a flash of lightning through the air between the point where it begins and the point where it ends.
MFD users say they can feel the energy of the line only when they are standing in the line, not when they step outside the line.
They find this line in the air when they see their dowsing rods move as they walk into the path of this signal line.

Here is what an MFD signal generator and dowsing rod equipment looks like:

http://www.geotech1.com/pages/lrl/reports/vr800/vr800_1.jpg

MFD users say they feel a force similar to a magnetic force to pull the rods away from the direction of gravity and swing to the direction of the signal line in the air.
But we cannot measure this same force as magnetic or electric, or electromagnetic force.
This force does not cause a magnetic force to move a compass to point to the signal line.
This force does not cause an electrometer to change the charge when we place the electrometer inside and outside of this line.
And there is no anomaly which shows in this signal line location at any band of receiver frequencies as we scan through the ELF ranges to the GHz ranges.
We only see the dowsing rod move for a person who holds the rod at the location of the signal line.
The only obvious physical force we can measure which can cause the rods to move away from the force of gravity is the muscle force in the hands of the treasure hunter.
But his hand muscles receive their signal from the brain of the treasure hunter.
So we can think of this line to contain an "idea signal" that is received only in the mind of the person who is holding the rods when they walk into this line.
We can clearly see the "idea signal" which is causing the treasure hunter's hand muscles to move is a "geomental" signal which cannot be measured as a geophysical signal.

Unless somebody can show me a way to measure this signal line with electronic instruments.
Then I will see that it is not a geomental signal.
If I can measure this signal line with electronic instruments, then I will know it is a geophysical line of energy in the air.
And I will know it is not a line with only an idea in it that we cannot measure to be physical.

Best wishes, :)
J_P

[Sneshko]

So we can think of this line to contain an "idea signal" that is received only in the mind of the person who is holding the rods when they walk into this line.
We can clearly see the "idea signal" which is causing the treasure hunter's hand muscles to move is a "geomental" signal which cannot be measured as a geophysical signal.

Unless somebody can show me a way to measure this signal line with electronic instruments.
Then I will see that it is not a geomental signal.
If I can measure this signal line with electronic instruments, then I will know it is a geophysical line of energy in the air.
And I will know it is not a line with only an idea in it that we cannot measure to be physical.

Best wishes, :)
J_P

Hi J_Player!
You may need to think a little differently!
Maybe I should try to measure the activity in the brain dowser moment when he "catches" the signal line, as the signal line is definitely not the geophysical nature.
Regards! :)
Sneshko
or Zocky-Zocky

[J_Player]

Hi J_Player!
You may need to think a little differently!
Maybe I should try to measure the activity in the brain dowser moment when he "catches" the signal line, as the signal line is definitely not the geophysical nature.
Regards! :)
Sneshko
or Zocky-ZockyHi Sneshko,
I am sure you can measure the brain activity when you see the rods move.
Since the hand muscles are controlled by electrical signals which originate in the brain, we expect you will measure the electrochemical brain signals some microseconds before you see the rods move.
You will also be able to measure the electric signals from the nerves in the arms which cause the hand muscles to move.
But you will not be able to measure the subconscious concept which results in these electrical brain currents and muscle movements.
Nor will you be able to measure this concept in the signal line which is claimed to exist in the air.

The reason is obvious: This signal line is not a physical entity.
It is purely a concept, or idea that is floating in the air, contained within the signal line which was established by the MFD generator.
When the MFD user steps into the path of this signal line, he receives the idea to move the rods in his mind, on a subconscious level which he is not aware of.
This subconscious idea tells him to move the rods to point at the location where the signal line has been established.
Since he is not aware of this subconscious idea causing his hands to move the rods, he believes it must be an electromagnetic force from the air that moves the rods.
He is not aware that his muscles are causing the rods to swing away from the direction of gravity.
Maybe if the MFD user was made to become aware of the subconscious ideas that enter his mind, then he could see that it is not a force in the air at all... but simply his muscles that cause the rods to move.

I once heard a theory that Jinns also use subconscious geomental signals near treasures to create illusions.
But the Jinn mental signals result in physical consequences that are not the same physical consequences which we see from a simple signal line.

This is why I look for some way to measure the signal line as a physical signal so I will not need to think that it is a mental signal.
If I can measure the signal line with electronic instruments, then I will be able to prove the signal lines are not "geomental" ideas propagating in the air.
And I will be able to prove the physical energy from the signal line is causing the rods to move.
But nobody can show me a way to measure this signal line with electronic instruments to demonstrate it is a physical field.


Of course I could be wrong about an "idea signal".
There are other things that exist which are not physical in nature.
But we can definitely rule out any possibility that the signal line is an electric, magnetic, or electromagnetic signal because it does not have any measurable physical properties.
And we can see it clearly does not exert any force on dowsing rods when there is no person who can have thoughts is holding the rods in the signal line path.

Best wishes,
J_P

[Sneshko]

J. Player!
It seems that everything in the brain, or not currently known to science a new physical quantity that may exist and are not detected, or ...
There are many "or" and "but" ...
But I personally know a man who invariably can detect buried metal objects with L antennas. Of course, in his undisclosed location.
I even thought to try to take Carls prize of 25 thousand, but, before that should be financed much more, and we do not have the money.
He says that over the buried target on your hands feel something similar when a light breeze blowing from a pipe. That it intersects L antenna.
It would be interesting to perform various measurements on this man, and (perhaps), to find out what's going on in his brain during detection.
Regards!
Sneshko

[J_Player]

J. Player!
It seems that everything in the brain, or not currently known to science a new physical quantity that may exist and are not detected, or ...
There are many "or" and "but" ...
But I personally know a man who invariably can detect buried metal objects with L antennas. Of course, in his undisclosed location.
I even thought to try to take Carls prize of 25 thousand, but, before that should be financed much more, and we do not have the money.
He says that over the buried target on your hands feel something similar when a light breeze blowing from a pipe. That it intersects L antenna.
It would be interesting to perform various measurements on this man, and (perhaps), to find out what's going on in his brain during detection.
Regards!
SneshkoHi Sneshko,
If you want to win a prize, maybe you are better to try to take Randi's prize for $1 million US.
When you win this prize, you will have enough money to pay for all traveling and also for a big party to celebrate.
But you must pass his test and prove you can locate the hidden target many times before you win the $1 million prize.
Dell Winders tried to win the Randi prize using an MFD locator like my picture shows above, but he was not able to find the coins he hid in the sand.
Randi will pay the $1 million prize if you can pass his test when using dowsing or an MFD locator.


For proving a physical signal line, sure - we can detect a slight breeze blowing from a pipe at the hands with an instrument that detects air moving.
If we find this breeze blowing at his hands only in the area of the signal line, then we will have proof the signal line is physical force of the wind blowing.
We can prove it is only air blowing from the signal line that makes the rod move ... not a mental signal which causes the hand muscles to move.
Then we will know the signal line is actually wind, not electric or magnetic or electromagnetic fields.
We can even make a map of where the signal line is.
We can put colored smoke in the air to see the signal line blowing wind against the smoke too.

See below for an inexpensive instrument which can measure the wind blowing at the hand.
We know that if the wind blows against the hand hard enough to move the rod away from gravity, then the wind will also blow to make the wind-vane move.
So this instrument should work fine to prove the signal line is wind.


Best wishes, J_P :)

[Geo]

Hi.

When we say line what we mean ; It's a straight line joining the midst detection with buried object. Is like to be the target a transmitter and the midst detection a receiver AM with ferrite. When the ferrite of radio closely aligned with the transmitter the signal is minimal. The same happens with the MFD, with the difference that now we have maximum signal. The MFD is a signal generator. Something similar happens with some LRL me. I use the oscillator as a generator (MFD) and assumes a receiver to detect a signal from the buried objects. The signal from the buried object has a minimum width of 10-30mV because the receiver does not receive a lower signals. Now, regarding the form of the received signal, honestly I have not ever seen. All I do is to give signal with the signal generator to the receiver and to tune it.


Regards

[J_Player]

Hi.

When we say line what we mean ; It's a straight line joining the midst detection with buried object. Is like to be the target a transmitter and the midst detection a receiver AM with ferrite. When the ferrite of radio closely aligned with the transmitter the signal is minimal. The same happens with the MFD, with the difference that now we have maximum signal. The MFD is a signal generator. Something similar happens with some LRL me. I use the oscillator as a generator (MFD) and assumes a receiver to detect a signal from the buried objects. The signal from the buried object has a minimum width of 10-30mV because the receiver does not receive a lower signals. Now, regarding the form of the received signal, honestly I have not ever seen. All I do is to give signal with the signal generator to the receiver and to tune it.


RegardsHi Geo,
Maybe you are talking about a different kind of detection than I show above.
I show the photo of MFD equipment which is said to produce a signal line again:

http://www.geotech1.com/pages/lrl/reports/vr800/vr800_1.jpg

I am talking about the LRL which you see in the photo, not about an LRL that uses a ferrite receiver.
For this LRL the MFD generator is connected to the ground probes and placed in the ground.
Then a signal line is established between the ground probes and the buried metal.
The treasure hunter with dowsing rods walks until he finds where this signal line is.
The signal line does not move when the treasure hunter moves.
The signal line does not follow his rods.
He uses his rods only to find where is the signal line.
Then he follows the invisible signal line through the air until he finds the end where the buried metal is.

He does not use his rods like a radio direction finder.
He has no ferrites to find a null.
He only looks for the invisible signal line that is a single line between the ground probes and the buried metal.

You can read where Carl-NC explains -- "A "signal line" is established between the transmitter and the target, and the dowsing rods are used to detect and track the signal line."
Read here in the beginning: http://www.geotech1.com/cgi-bin/pages/common/index.pl?page=lrl&file=reports/vr800/index.dat

You will also find that other people who use and sell MFD locators say the same as Carl-NC.
Dell winders, Mike(Mont), and others who use the equipment you see in my photo say that MFD signal line remains in one single line between the transmitter ground probes and the buried metal.
Then they use dowsing rods to find this line in the air.
You can read the instruction manual for the Vernell VR-800 MFD locator here: http://www.vernellelectronics.com/VR300-800%20MANUAL.doc
This manual also tells that you need to find the signal line between the transmitter and the buried metal by using dowsing rods to find it.
Vernell is the company who manufactured the locator you see in the photo above.

If you are talking about an LRL which uses an electronic ferrite receiver with no dowsing rods, then you are not talking about the same equipment you see in my photo which uses dowsing rods to find the signal line.
You are talking about an all-electronic LRL.
Ferrite LRLs do look to find the same signal line as MFD like you see in the photo.
Ferrite LRLs work on the theory of radio direction finding.
There is no signal line to be found with all-electronic ferrite LRLs.
All electric LRLs look for simple radio direction finding null or maximum.
The signal line is only for LRL which has a swivel or dowsing rod.

This section of the forum is only for the MFD LRLs which use a dowsing rod.
If you want to talk about ferrite detectors that do not use dowsing rods, and do not use signal lines, then you should make your post in the other forum section that is for all-electronic LRLs: All-Electronic LRLs (http://www.longrangelocators.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=62)


Best wishes, :)
J_P