Simple question

[ivconic]

Simple question for all LRL enthusiasts;

when you deal with so called Long Range Locating, dowsing or whatever -
what kind of signal exactly you are dealing with?
What are the features of such "signal"?

If you want science to solve the problem of LRL and offer exact apparatus/device which will operate accurately and bring you good results - first you must know exact parameters and features of signal you would like to detect and process.

So,
again, what kind of signal you are searching for?
What are the features of such signal?
...

Until you clear up these questions - you will not get any sane results, trust me!
Until you define exact signal features and parameters of what you will "receive" with LRL device - you will wander as goose in a fog and waste all your life time, energy and money.

Simply as that.
...
So, instead more polluting these forums with complete nonsenses - stop for a moment, put your finger on your brow and think hard!

You must admit that it looks very stupid and backward what you are doing here all the time!
And what is that what are you doing all the time?
I will tell you!
You people are spreading blur theories, making tens of blur devices and apparatuses, evolving some new and completely idiotic "science" , suggesting some new "techniques" , designing some new schematics...etc...etc..
And all the time you truly do not know what are you talking about !?
You are ready to debate, to make some device, to perform many field tests - yet; all the time you are completely ignorant about crucial things which are very necessary if you want to do something at all:
signal, dimension, features, tendencies.... ??
...
You are looking very funny and mostly stupid doing like that! Don't you realize this?
There are people on this forum who spent most of their lives trying to achieve something and up to today they achieved NOTHING!
I know a man from here who made 10 tons of various wild coils, ferrite setups, pcb's ... and up to today he achieved NOTHING.
After 20-30 years of dealing with same problem - even now at this moment he is not able to explain a bit of such "signal" features?
Even today he don't know what he was "studied" all those years!?
Isn't that sad?
...
Ok, just try to explain the "signal" which is subject in LRL matters?
At least try to explain it to yourselves if not to us here in public.
...

Now you know how we others are looking at you!
:rotfl


All... and i mean ALL of materials what are posted on RS threads are complete junk!
Complete crap, rubbish, trash.
Sorry, but it is unbeatable FACT!

First who answer my question about "signal" will persuade me to completely change my attitude upon this.
Until than......

[ivconic]

No answers on my simple question?
As i thought.
Nobody from LRL'st and dowsers actually do not know the answer!
And that is the thing which is most sad but also illustrative.
As i see; we will see hundreds more "projects" on these pages in future, and by the rule, those all will be presented exactly by people who can not find answer on my very simple question...
:frown:

[Mike(Mont)]

Nothing wrong with asking a question, just all the Andy Rooney-type garbage that makes you look so biased. Let me say I see no advantage to producing a scientific-like study. I've been practicing daily for many years and I don't need any "proof". If you want proof then go and get it yourself. Get a frequency generator and some L-rods or better yet get a system with an electronic receiver if you hope it to be scientific. But even then it is unlikely. There are just too many variables not the least of which is the emotional state of the user.

I am told the signal line from Molecular Frequency Discriminators (MFD) is magnetic. That is, the essence of the target's field is communicated across this something like the string on a tin can and string telephone used by children. The signal line acts like an antenna. It is a concentration of the lines of force. If you have studied ground radio you know it is conduction and induction. Absolutely no doubt in my mind this is where the MFD concept originated.

Getting back to L-rods. Some people can feel the signal line in their feet, through their shoes. I've heard dogs feel it in their feet, also. What is it that gives the buzz many people feel when on the signal line or near the target (or even pointing the rod at the target)? I have said it feels very much like when you hit your hand with a hammer only without the pain, there is a buzz that is your body sending an electrical charge to the injured area. I read a book on meditation and some shrink claims it's all a hallucination. That's a good cop-out, hide the elephant under the carpet. Typically the palms of the hands feel it the most and there are many acupuncture receiver points there.

All the early MFD systems used electronic receivers. The L-rods were substituted because they are cheap and fast.

Which brings up the topic about why skeptics cannot use a locator. My theory is they have been hypnotized, but it certainly also has to do with the indoctrination they received at an early age from parents, etc. Their subconscious runs programs like the "I don't like green eggs and ham, Sam I am." I was watching a TV series titled "Brain Games" the other day. A guy had hypnotized a woman so she thought there was no number "4". He had her count his ten fingers and she skipped the number four and ended up counting eleven fingers. He spelled out the word "f-o-u-r" and asked her to pronounce it. "Foo--are" she said. He asked her if she had ever heard of that word and she said it sounded somewhat familiar. Did James Randi start this hypnosis thing against dowsing/locating? I have to believe he popularized it. I guees I shouldn't say I think you skeptics are stupid. You are just gullible to believe someone without one shread of experience on the subject. Well, that is stupid.

[Mike(Mont)]

To be fair, I should say I think anyone who takes one of the "tests" (like randi or carl's) is also gullible. Eight out of ten sounds innocent, but it's not. Just finding one out of one target in a relatively small search area is beyond random chance and for each successive trial the odds are multiplied. That's like winning a small lotto in the hundred's of thousands. And the constant repetition is an effective way to confuse the person. These guys know this. I think it's a way for someone to get free lessons and nothing more other than to ridicule the person. That's why I would demand a fee of $2500 (same price as lessons from one LRL manufacturer). If I lose I don't care what they say about me.

[hung]

Nothing wrong with asking a question, just all the Andy Rooney-type garbage that makes you look so biased. Let me say I see no advantage to producing a scientific-like study. I've been practicing daily for many years and I don't need any "proof". If you want proof then go and get it yourself. Get a frequency generator and some L-rods or better yet get a system with an electronic receiver if you hope it to be scientific. But even then it is unlikely. There are just too many variables not the least of which is the emotional state of the user.

I am told the signal line from Molecular Frequency Discriminators (MFD) is magnetic. That is, the essence of the target's field is communicated across this something like the string on a tin can and string telephone used by children. The signal line acts like an antenna. It is a concentration of the lines of force. If you have studied ground radio you know it is conduction and induction. Absolutely no doubt in my mind this is where the MFD concept originated.

Getting back to L-rods. Some people can feel the signal line in their feet, through their shoes. I've heard dogs feel it in their feet, also. What is it that gives the buzz many people feel when on the signal line or near the target (or even pointing the rod at the target)? I have said it feels very much like when you hit your hand with a hammer only without the pain, there is a buzz that is your body sending an electrical charge to the injured area. I read a book on meditation and some shrink claims it's all a hallucination. That's a good cop-out, hide the elephant under the carpet. Typically the palms of the hands feel it the most and there are many acupuncture receiver points there.

All the early MFD systems used electronic receivers. The L-rods were substituted because they are cheap and fast.

Which brings up the topic about why skeptics cannot use a locator. My theory is they have been hypnotized, but it certainly also has to do with the indoctrination they received at an early age from parents, etc. Their subconscious runs programs like the "I don't like green eggs and ham, Sam I am." I was watching a TV series titled "Brain Games" the other day. A guy had hypnotized a woman so she thought there was no number "4". He had her count his ten fingers and she skipped the number four and ended up counting eleven fingers. He spelled out the word "f-o-u-r" and asked her to pronounce it. "Foo--are" she said. He asked her if she had ever heard of that word and she said it sounded somewhat familiar. Did James Randi start this hypnosis thing against dowsing/locating? I have to believe he popularized it. I guees I shouldn't say I think you skeptics are stupid. You are just gullible to believe someone without one shread of experience on the subject. Well, that is stupid.

Good post Mike. Tough exact scientific details are missing, it gives a good general explanation on the subject.
I will only add that the rods act as an effective clean receiving antenna unlike an ordinary electronic apparatus which would be seriously affected by noise.
And also that magnetism manifests itself in many variation forms including light.

I no longer get myself involved in such discussions in forums as it turns into tiresome arguing with the called skeptics. And I will not do it here either.
The anwers are out there.
It's up to one go get it and use it to its understanding. This is what I did regarding my LRL technology.

If you still did not read it, some months ago I posted in TNET a thread about magnetism and its implications. It's called 'When Ordinary Science Fails to Explain'.
I think you should read it.

Regards.

[ivconic]

Cool, at least you tried to give more closer perspective!
Sure, your way of understanding the LRL "things" is pretty common and related to common sense.
However; you still do not know what kind of signal is there to be detected?
You said it is complex... so what?
Do i need to name you all the types of indeed complex signals that are in use in todays technology? I think i don't, because you already know most of those.
So, if there is already proven technology to generate and later receive and analyze such complex signals - than i see no troubles to do the same with LRL signals too.
Just define it here with all it's features - and we will make perfect device to detect it and process it any way you wish.
Just define it...
Just define it...
Explain it...
Give all data and features...
Give starting point...
What is it? AC current? RF current? Wave? PWM? AM? FM?
What?
That was the point of my question!
All of you people are very ready to debate, argue and sometimes offend - but in essence neither one of you do not know NEITHER ONE usable info about LRL signal nature!
Pity!
Hung is the champion here, champion of debates! Nobody can "overtalk" him here!
Yet... not even him ever offered nothing "material" that maybe help to find the answer on my question...
So, do not focus on "injurious" side of my attitude and my question - but do focus on finding the exact answer!
Cheers!

[hung]

I did not need you to find my answers, so why would you need me to find yours?

[ivconic]

I did not need you to find my answers, so why would you need me to find yours?

Because i am not LRL proponent, i am "skeptic"... remember?
But forget me, i am not important, what is very important is:

1) This is public forum,
2) You (all of you people) do come here and make claims,
3) You (all of you people) started first to mention such thing and ask for solutions,
4) You (all of you people) are the ones who started all the debates here,
5) Once you appear and claim such claims - you simply MUST backup and support those with facts, otherwise don't be offended with our suspicions and our attitude,

I was not the first who started, without your appearance at first - i would never ever even think about something like LRL!
Once you started with claims, it is very logical and expectable you to face with a lot of questions.
I am not asking you so much - just one simple question...
Is it so tough to answer?
I bet it is, simply because right answer is something you will not accept ever! :lol:

[J_Player]

...Let me say I see no advantage to producing a scientific-like study. I've been practicing daily for many years and I don't need any "proof". If you want proof then go and get it yourself. Get a frequency generator and some L-rods or better yet get a system with an electronic receiver if you hope it to be scientific. But even then it is unlikely. There are just too many variables not the least of which is the emotional state of the user.

I am told the signal line from Molecular Frequency Discriminators (MFD) is magnetic. That is, the essence of the target's field is communicated across this something like the string on a tin can and string telephone used by children. The signal line acts like an antenna. It is a concentration of the lines of force. If you have studied ground radio you know it is conduction and induction. Absolutely no doubt in my mind this is where the MFD concept originated.

...I guees I shouldn't say I think you skeptics are stupid. You are just gullible to believe someone without one shread of experience on the subject. Well, that is stupid.Hi Mike,

I have looked for some proof as you suggested with both dowsing rods and with a swiveling LRL to see what signals are present.
I used very sensitive instruments to measure actual signals in the air much smaller and broader spectrum than any radio you can buy will tune.
I measured both magnetic signals and electric field signals. I was able to observe tiny signals well below 1 Hz, and into the GHz band.
Guess what I found?
I found noise in the air.
This was mostly RF from nearby power circuits that were switching, from broadcasts, and from local computers and electronics.
When I set up LRLs that were guaranteed to establish a signal line from a rod or antenna to a gold sample I was not able to locate this signal line.

I guess this is evidence that whatever "magnetic" signal line is so much weaker than the noise in the air that it cannot be measured or detected with magnetic or electric sensing instruments.
I also read where some LRL users say the signal line circuit is completed by traveling in the ground from the buried treasure to the feet of the dowser or LRL user. So I made some tests using ground probes to check for unusual signals in the line between them.
Guess what I found?
I found more noise.
Even the noise is hard to find unless you set your instruments to very sensitive settings and take special precautions for grounding and shielding so you don't pick up stray noise that is not being measured from the ground probe.
The appearance is no matter where you go to conduct these measurements, you find the same exact noise signals whether you remove the treasure sample or not, and regardless of who is holding the dowsing rods.
The LRL signals is a whole different story.
I did measure signals coming from the LRL, but they were not measurable beyond 6 inches maximum (this particular model did not have a powered adjustable frequency generator attached, but a pocket calculator for generating a signal).
The bottom line is that very sensitive electronic instruments were not able to locate anywhere a signal line between the dowser or LRL and a piece of gold at any frequency between 1/4 Hz and into the low GHz range. Not in three dimensional space, and not down six inches into the ground
Not a magnetic signal or an electric signal or a signal that we call RF.

I would think I would see at least a millivolt if this signal was strong enough to cause a rod to swing, or an antenna to swivel.
But there was nothing there.
The noise signals I measured did not change in the least when an assistant removed the gold sample from the location 30 feet away.

The evidence I measured with electronic instruments makes it hard for me to believe that there is a signal line composed of a magnetic frequency.
And we know that if there was such a signal moving through the air as a frequency, it would propagate in transverse waves, not longitudinal waves as we find with the mechanical waves traveling through a string between tin cans.
Now, I begin to wonder who told you that the signal line is magnetic? Certainly not a scientist who has experience with magnetics.
It sounds like something a person who is ignorant of the properties of magnetic waves and fields would say.

You say you see no advantage to producing a scientific-like study. I've been practicing daily for many years and I don't need any "proof".
Of course not if the evidence we find by actually taking measurements proves your theory is wrong!

Does the evidence make people wonder how your practicing every day with dowsing rods/LRLs caused you to conlcude there are magnetic waves traveling in a signal line that can't be measured?
Does it make people wonder if you expound these un-founded theories of magnetism to convice other people who also don't know the nature of magnetic waves?

You finish your symposium on dowsing/MFD theory by saying skeptics are gullible.
I have already seen the evidence that your theory is wrong.
But I have not seen evidence that you can in fact successfully locate hidden things with your dowsing or LRLs.
If you really believe you can find things with your dowsing rods and LRLs, this is fine with me.
But I will never believe you can do it until I see a convincing demonstration where you repeatedly recover things that you don't know the location of.
If you believe this defines me to be gullible, then feel free to believe as you wish.

Judging from your description of how dowsing/MFD works, your version seems to work as the result of mental conditions rather than than physical conditions.


Best wishes,
J_P

[ivconic]

Well said JPlayer, because your experiments correlates with most things we all did in the past, when examining this LRL thing at the beginning.
I am sorry to say; but our results also correlates!:lol:
But in your nice post you said one crucial thing:

"...It sounds like something a person who is ignorant of the properties of magnetics would say..."

:lol: Exactly!

That's the fact and that's the main problem here on this forum!

I would not limit that claim only on properties of magnetics - i would amplify it as: properties of any other possible feature too!

Exactly that's why i started this topic and asked such very simple question about features and properties of LRL "signal".

We can not build a rocket without knowing more essential things!
C'mon, let's first define the LRL "signal" and once we do that - the rest would be piece of cake! :lol:
It is not shame because i as skeptic am ignorant on these matters - but
it is huge shame because major LRL proponents actually are not capable even to define essential thing ...
as "signal" itself , which they want to receive and "process" !
Huge shame!

[Mike(Mont)]

Sorry but I've got most of you skeptics on virtual ignore.

When you start talking about how L-rods are able to detect, the whole subject is beyond any skeptic's comprehension. They refuse to accept even the most basic principles like the etheric body of humans. Even though it has been used for thousands of years, most refuse to admit acupuncture is real but even the medical doctors in the USA have finally admitted there is something there (and they want a piece of the pie$$$$$). It's a waste of my time to even discuss it here.

Oh yea, at least Andy Rooney admits he is biased.

[Mike(Mont)]

One more thing about test odds. If you have a an area slightly bigger than twenty feet by twenty feet the odds of getting within eighteen inches are about fifty to one. That means not only is a one out of one attempts beyond random chance, so is one out of two, one out of three, even one out of four.

[ivconic]

Sorry but I've got most of you skeptics on virtual ignore.

When you start talking about how L-rods are able to detect, the whole subject is beyond any skeptic's comprehension. They refuse to accept even the most basic principles like the etheric body of humans. Even though it has been used for thousands of years, most refuse to admit acupuncture is real but even the medical doctors in the USA have finally admitted there is something there (and they want a piece of the pie$$$$$). It's a waste of my time to even discuss it here.

Oh yea, at least Andy Rooney admits he is biased.

Obviously you are not ignoring , because i see your presence most often here on similar topics.
Which is not bad at all. I like to see you people here, because your opinions and experiences sometimes can have some value in debunking the things here.
I only do not understand why you people always take kind a hostile attitude upon us skeptics?
Because our suspicions and questions are not malicious but honest and caused by wish to know and learn more.
So what's wrong in that?
Here on this topic you already showed emotions and started with offend? Why?
I don't see nothing bad in my simple question?
What's so bad?
What's so injurious?
What's so provocative?
Question is more than simple:
what is LRL "signal" and what are it's properties and features?

As LRL expert - you should know the proper answers?

[ivconic]

:lol::lol::lol:

My question is so uncomfortable, seems everybody really trying to avoid commenting it!?

:rotfl:rotfl:rotfl

People you may pollute Geotech forum further with more new nonsense topics if you want,
but this topic is something what puts the END of any further sanity of your debates and claims.
Simply because question i asked here is the one that must be answered if you want to continue!
Otherwise all your efforts are for nothing, completely absurd and trivial.
From now on i will constantly refresh this topic with a new post and that's how i will keep it on the top of RS threads so you can not easily put it away and forget.
It will stay here and serve as reminder.
By doing this i am not harming no forum rules at all, therefore administrators will not have slightest reason to do anything against that.
...

So;
what kind of signal is supposed to be that famous LRL "signal"?
What are it's properties and features?



:rotfl:rotfl:rotfl

[ivconic]

BTW i am not the only one here to be interested in answer...

[ivconic]

Mike Mont:

"...Some people can feel the signal line in their feet, through their shoes. .."

I was about to ask you about this, but i forgot for a moment.
Now....
i would like to know if it makes difference what kind of shoes those must be?
Nike, Reebok....?
I heard rumors that Nike shoes are more suitable for non ferrous LR Locating while Reebok's are more suitable for cavity LR Locating?
And what if there are no shoes just bare foot?
Maybe in that case "signal" will be a bit attenuated?

[Carl-NC]

Question is more than simple:
what is LRL "signal" and what are it's properties and features?


This gets it right to the point, doesn't it? Even if your Average Joe LRL user doesn't know the answer to this, an LRL manufacturer should, eh? Can you imagine a metal detector designer who has no idea how a metal detector works?

I've also asked about the nature of signal lines for 13 years and gotten different answers, and no answers. I've also done my own testing and experiments on trying to physically detect the signal and gotten exactly zero results. Now, I agree, and have repeatedly admitted, there is a possibility that the signal line is almost unmeasurable, and that some people might possess a skill that I do not.

That is why I invite experienced "successful" users to show me their results. Most refuse. Many don't even want to talk about it, insisting that any kind of test is faulty. Yet they are more than willing to discuss their techniques and beliefs and the fact that you need to "practice" to get good at it. OK, how do you practice? What do you do?

Mike is a manufacturer, but cannot answer even the most basic question about his device:

Mike, besides being smooth, can you tell me exactly what your Revelation Locator Rod can do? What did you design it to do, and what does it actually do?

If I created a "metal detector" which had a smoother audio sound than any other metal detector, but it didn't actually detect metal, how much would that feature be worth to you? Can your RLR actually do anything useful? Can that usefulness be demonstrated? How would the manufacturer of metal detectors respond? Or cars? Or pianos?

Mike, if you were trying to demonstrate your Revelation Locator Rod to a potential customer, how would you do it? I would assume that you would use a method that demonstrates some reasonable level of success, so can you describe a simple test scenario for your device that you feel you can succeed with, say, 70% of the time?

C'mon Mike, now you're a manufacturer, you no longer have the luxury of dismissing or ignoring these questions! Even if I cannot measure or "feel" these signal lines, can you? Can you show me? No one else can, including a manufacturer, and including the fellow last weekend; all have failed miserably. Not even one single success! Are you so certain of failure that you won't even try?

- Carl

[WM6]

So;
what kind of signal is supposed to be that famous LRL "signal"?
What are it's properties and features?



Answer is:

This is more complex than modern science can explain (LRL "science" inclusive).

This is more complex than anyone can understand (LRL belivers inclusive).

This is more complex than anyone can solve with his LRL creations.


So, because it is more complex than anyone can explain and than anyone can solve with his LRL, the only proper question is:

Are mineoro,rangertell, dr. Hung, Mike_Mont, etc., LRL scam cheaters?
Answer is short and simple:
YES!

[J_Player]

Mike Mont:

"...Some people can feel the signal line in their feet, through their shoes. .."

I was about to ask you about this, but i forgot for a moment.
Now....
i would like to know if it makes difference what kind of shoes those must be?
Nike, Reebok....?
I heard rumors that Nike shoes are more suitable for non ferrous LR Locating while Reebok's are more suitable for cavity LR Locating?
And what if there are no shoes just bare foot?
Maybe in that case "signal" will be a bit attenuated?
Hi Ivconic,
We all know it is dangerous to walk outside bare foot when there is powerful electricity in the air causing rods to swing... :rolleyes:

Best wishes,
J_P

[ivconic]

Answer is:

This is more complex than modern science can explain (LRL "science" inclusive).

This is more complex than anyone can understand (LRL belivers inclusive).

This is more complex than anyone can solve with his LRL creations.


So, because it is more complex than anyone can explain and than anyone can solve with his LRL, the only proper question is:

Are mineoro,rangertell, dr. Hung, Mike_Mont, etc., LRL scam cheaters?
Answer is short and simple:
YES!

That's why i asked mostly LRL proponents here, LRL experts too.
Because i would like to learn...simply as that!

[ivconic]

Hi Ivconic,
We all know it is dangerous to walk outside bare foot when there is electricity in the air... :rolleyes:

Best wishes,
J_P

So!? I see now!
Yes you are right!
So that's why Mike was explicit about shoes!?
Now i understand!
But yet; i do wander about type of shoes?

[ivconic]

Ok, for now we better go step by step with this.
Let us not stray to much away from most crucial question here!

Question is more than simple:
what is LRL "signal" and what are it's properties and features?

As LRL experts - you should know the proper answers?

By main LRL experts here i mean mostly on: Mike (Mont), Hung, Gibon and Dell.
Following all the topics here on Geotech in last couple years, i got impression (i am sure) that those people are real experts in these matters.
Therefore i do expect mostly from those to answer me on very simple question:

What is LRL "signal" and what are it's properties and features?

[hung]

Happened about two months ago.

Sitting by the beach I spotted a dowser at distance. When he suddenly marked a spot I aproached. He tried the regular bishop's method to check the depth and the target apperared relatively shallow.

Some guy with a MD also aproached. I saw 'whites' written. He passed the thing over the spot and nodded his head to the dowser. The dowser insisted that was the spot. The MD guy again recalibrated the device, swept the space around much like a floor polisher and nothing.
Then another detectorist aproached with a minelab. I think an explorer or something like that. He swept the same spot but not getting also a response, he started to move the coil quikly and he got a faint signal, real weak. He started to dig, signal slowly getting stronger. Then a coin popped up.

Humm... Did this prove that the whites MD is a piece of crap? Yes? No? Could it be that the whites operator was not competent enough to succeed? Yes? No?

Interesting... really interesting...

By the way, does somebody know how the minelab lawsuit against whites is going? Updates?

Carl?...

[WM6]

Happened about two months ago......


.


.... in dr. hung wet dreams.

[ivconic]

Happened about two months ago.

Sitting by the beach I spotted a dowser at distance. When he suddenly marked a spot I aproached. He tried the regular bishop's method to check the depth and the target apperared relatively shallow.

Some guy with a MD also aproached. I saw 'whites' written. He passed the thing over the spot and nodded his head to the dowser. The dowser insisted that was the spot. The MD guy again recalibrated the device, swept the space around much like a floor polisher and nothing.
Then another detectorist aproached with a minelab. I think an explorer or something like that. He swept the same spot but not getting also a response, he started to move the coil quikly and he got a faint signal, real weak. He started to dig, signal slowly getting stronger. Then a coin popped up.

Humm... Did this prove that the whites MD is a piece of crap? Yes? No? Could it be that the whites operator was not competent enough to succeed? Yes? No?

Interesting... really interesting...

By the way, does somebody know how the minelab lawsuit against whites is going? Updates?

Carl?...

Hung, that's nice story and illustrative too.
I like it.
Just because of that i want to learn more on these matters, and just because of that i started this topic and asked that question.
And i think (you simply must agree with me on this) that most important question is exactly what i asked here already.
Because, once we clear up all the aspects and get proper answer on that question - than it will be very easy to design perfect LRL device, comparing to which; all the "White's", "Minelab's" and others will look pretty funny! Don't you agree?
But first of all we must get the ANSWER on my question.
And who is the better man to ask than experts like You, Mike and Dell?
So i am asking you very friendly again:
What is LRL "signal", what type of signal is it and what are it's properties and features?

I hope that you will answer me on this, because so far you showed pretty respectable knowledge and experience on these matters!

[WM6]

Interesting... really interesting...

By the way, does somebody know how the minelab lawsuit against whites is going? Updates?

Carl?...

Or learn fraudster art on how to avoid real questions.

Not Interesting... really not interesting...

[ivconic]

Or learn fraudster art on how to avoid real questions.

Not Interesting... really not interesting...

C'mon WM6!
Cheer up!
We all here are enthusiasts and friends.
Who cares about eventual White's vs Minelab conflict?
As far as they make nice VLF's - they are our friends too! :lol:
But here we are talking only about LRL signal, it's properties and features.
Let us not dilute this subject and spoil so nice debate that is evolving right now, please!
I am restless to hear right answer from our fellows LRL experts.
Because, i swear, once i get the right answer - i will design perfect LRL.
Also i will ask my skeptic colleagues experts to help me in process of designing it.
Simply because i am not that good even in conventional electronics, there are more better experts here too.
I bet those will accept my invitation and we all will work and design perfect working LRL together.
But first we have to know most crucial thing:
What is LRL "signal", what type of signal is it and what are it's properties and features?

And who is better to ask than our good fellows LRL experts:
Mike , Hung, Gibon and Dell ??

[J_Player]

So!? I see now!
Yes you are right!
So that's why Mike was explicit about shoes!?
Now i understand!
But yet; i do wander about type of shoes?Hi Ivconic,
Yes, of course I know something about type shoes.
According to MFD manufacturers your body capacitance is important.
When we consider the ground is the electrical return path from the treasure to the dowser, we know that any capacitance within your body requires a good dielectric to separate it from the ground.

Now we are getting somewhere...
We are talking about shoes and socks.
Of course if you are bare foot, you will be grounded and your capacitance is shorted out.
Unless you are standing bare foot on very dry ground which acts as an insulator.
Maybe people standing in the Sahara Desert can dowse bare foot very well.

But moving along to places where we do not have dry ground, we must examine the shoes and socks....
Do the shoes have dark rubber soles? These usually contain carbon pigments which allow electrical leakage...
Maybe better to use vinyl based shoe soles.
Another problem... what if there is a puncture through the sole of the shoe?
This should not be a problem unless the dowser is perspiring... and his feet are damp inside his shoes.
Or even worse... what if the ground is wet... and contaminated water is leaking through the hole in the sole of the shoe?
What if the dowser is wearing leather sole shoes?
Then moisture conducts small charges through the pores in the soles...
And definitely not a good dielectric.
Maybe it will help to carry spare socks... so you can change to clean, dry socks when you are ready for an important dowse.
Maybe the socks will be a good dielectric.

I think it will be best to hear back from dowsers who have more experience with different shoes and socks.
They should be much more expert for deciding what works best.

Best wishes,
J_P

[hung]

What is LRL "signal", what type of signal is it and what are it's properties and features?


Your 'simple' question requires a huge long and complex answer that I will refrain from answering it.
I simply don't have the time anymore nor feel like going over all of this again here or elsewhere after all this time. I'm serious. I'm sick of it.

If you want to know the answers to your question. Research it. There are tons of material here and specially on TNET about this. Just go for it.
Good luck.

[ivconic]

Your 'simple' question requires a huge long and complex answer that I will refrain from answering it.
I simply don't have the time anymore nor feel like going over all of this again here or elsewhere after all this time. I'm serious. I'm sick of it.

If you want to know the answers to your question. Research it. There are tons of material here and specially on TNET about this. Just go for it.
Good luck.

C'mon!
After such huge effort you already involved here on Geotech forum!?
What are you talking about?
I've been following your posts so long; you involved so much efforts here already.
Worse thing you can do now is to give up of everything!
Don't mind people like Carl, Qiaozhi, WM6 and others, don't let their remarks and mockery to distract your focus from main point here!
Those are nice people but seems not ready yet to accept new things that may appear in science!
If you, 'The HUNG', give up now... than what's left for others?
Besides, who's pushing you to answer so fast, now and in one sentence?
Take your time and go slowly, you will have my full attention anyway.
It doesn't matter how long you will elaborate this thing as long as you finally help me to understand what at the end is damn LRL signal, what type of signal it is and what should be it's properties and features, on which i should pay attention in process of designing the full electronic working LRL.
So... take your time and come up with your views upon this, no need to hurry!
Cheers!

[goldfinder]

I too ran huge numbers of tests on LRL technology and nothing standard electronics would measure the signal even though I can feel it by running my hand where it. I won't go into that.

From what I found most of the LRL devices work with the dowsing response and is primarily a mental and nervous system type thing. If your mental frame of mind is right you can make them work to a limited extent. Only a very few number of real dowsers out there so the results are crappy to really find something.

As to the signal line definition. Our nervous system is really responsive to scalar or longitudinal type of signals. This is what I think the dowsers are responding to. We have a very sensitive nervous system and detect signals that are not transverse wave type of phenomena. Transverse is normal electromagnetic type of signal. Longitudinal is a different type of signal. Build a longitudinal wave detector and you will have your true LRL.
Goldfinder

[ivconic]

Hi Ivconic,
Yes, of course I know something about type shoes.
According to MFD manufacturers your body capacitance is important.
When we consider the ground is the electrical return path from the treasure to the dowser, we know that any capacitance within your body requires a good dielectric to separate it from the ground.

Now we are getting somewhere...
We are talking about shoes and socks.
Of course if you are bare foot, you will be grounded and your capacitance is shorted out.
Unless you are standing bare foot on very dry ground which acts as an insulator.
Maybe people standing in the Sahara Desert can dowse bare foot very well.

But moving along to places where we do not have dry ground, we must examine the shoes and socks....
Do the shoes have dark rubber soles? These usually contain carbon pigments which allow electrical leakage...
Maybe better to use vinyl based shoe soles.
Another problem... what if there is a puncture through the sole of the shoe?
This should not be a problem unless the dowser is perspiring... and his feet are damp inside his shoes.
Or even worse... what if the ground is wet... and contaminated water is leaking through the hole in the sole of the shoe?
What if the dowser is wearing leather sole shoes?
Then moisture conducts small charges through the pores in the soles...
And definitely not a good dielectric.
Maybe it will help to carry spare socks... so you can change to clean, dry socks when you are ready for an important dowse.
Maybe the socks will be a good dielectric.

I think it will be best to hear back from dowsers who have more experience with different shoes and socks.
They should be much more expert for deciding what works best.

Best wishes,
J_P


Hmmm!
Now i see some analogies in what you just elaborated with some of my works from the past!
Back in the past, when redesigning Zahori, i also reconsidered the ultra high impedance inputs - just because of the dangers you just explained! ;)
Cool!
That is starting to make more and more sense!
Because, than, i faced one pretty delicate compromise;
to get device more sensitive to such tiny "signals" that may come through the air - i had to design ultra high impedance inputs...
but than again; ultra high impedance inputs can turn hazardous in such use as it is searching for casual signals in the air!

[J_Player]

I too ran huge numbers of tests on LRL technology and nothing standard electronics would measure the signal even though I can feel it by running my hand where it. I won't go into that.

From what I found most of the LRL devices work with the dowsing response and is primarily a mental and nervous system type thing. If your mental frame of mind is right you can make them work to a limited extent. Only a very few number of real dowsers out there so the results are crappy to really find something.

As to the signal line definition. Our nervous system is really responsive to scalar or longitudinal type of signals. This is what I think the dowsers are responding to. We have a very sensitive nervous system and detect signals that are not transverse wave type of phenomena. Transverse is normal electromagnetic type of signal. Longitudinal is a different type of signal. Build a longitudinal wave detector and you will have your true LRL.
GoldfinderHi Goldfinder,
I understand very well the kind of principle you are talking about, which brings up a deeper philosophical point about LRLs:
Carl is correct when he admits there is a possibility that the signal line is almost unmeasurable, and that some people might possess a skill that he does not.
Let us suppose that dowsing and swiveling LRLs work on a scientific principle which our best scientists have not yet discovered.

Since this would be an unknown science, nobody will have a way to adequately describe it or explain how it works.
Then how can we prove it even exists?
The only proof we will have in this circumstance is to show evidence that the unknown principle is working.

We can simply demonstrate how the dowsing/LRL leads us to the hidden object time and again to show how well this unknown principle it is working.
After we establish that we can rely on the dowsing/LRL to find the hidden object, then it becomes the work of the scientist to figure out how it works.
The gifted people who perform these recovery feats are not obligated to explain how it works.
They only need to show the skeptical scientists that they have something which defies their known science.

Think about it.
Columbus did this. He showed the best scientists of his time they were wrong about the edge of the world.
Then it was the job of the scientists to revise their science to explain how a round earth works.

Nicola Tesla did it. He showed that is was more economical to use AC electricity than DC for power.
In his case the scientists had no work to do because he already gave all the scientific answers and details.

Now is the perfect chance for dowsers and swivel-rod MFD users to show skeptical scientists how they can locate hidden things that they don't know the location of.
Once they do this, scientists will jump into panic mode to try to figure out how they are so successful at locating hidden things.
We will then see some real science research to explain it shortly after these amazing demonstrations.

But until we see some real evidence that hidden things are actually being located, it remains a bunch of talk that cannot be demonstrated to be factual or to even exist.


Best wishes,
J_P

[J_Player]

Hmmm!
Now i see some analogies in what you just elaborated with some of my works from the past!
Back in the past, when redesigning Zahori, i also reconsidered the ultra high impedance inputs - just because of the dangers you just explained! ;)
Cool!
That is starting to make more and more sense!
Because, than, i faced one pretty delicate compromise;
to get device more sensitive to such tiny "signals" that may come through the air - i had to design ultra high impedance inputs...
but than again; ultra high impedance inputs are hazardous in such use as it is searching for casual signals in the air!

Hahahahahahaaaaa
:rotfl

Best wishes,
J_P

[WM6]

Your 'simple' question requires a huge long and complex answer that I will refrain from answering it.
I simply don't have the time anymore nor feel like going over all of this again here or elsewhere after all this time. I'm serious. I'm sick of it.

.

Scam business as usual.

He have no time to answer, but he have enormous amount of time for rogue posts here again and again and again and again.

Hi is constantly sick to give answer, which he never gave and never will, cause such answer is out of his scam business.

[ivconic]

Hahahahahahaaaaa
:rotfl

Best wishes,
J_P

Now you see why i do insist to know more details on shoe type!
It is not the same and it makes the difference!

Both; Reebok and Nike are high impedance, but Nike are ultra high ... while Reebok is just high impedance!
Other hand... following this logic; bare foot will also be variable in impedance because there are differences in foot skin thickness.
Along with that i think there also can be important if feet are freshly washed or not?
Bare foot LRL'st with freshly washed feet maybe presents lower impedance input for stray signals?
So i guess; to achieve ultra high impedance: man LRL'st must not wash it's feet for some time!?
We actually can experiment and adopt some "feet impedance scale" which will
represent various impedances which are dependable on how many days, weeks, months our feet are not washed?
How about that?
I think this is good idea, because at the end we can achieve the same effect as with brand new Nike's - only this time with much less costs!?
How about that?
Splendid idea!
I knew i am smart person! Only i need slight bias from time to time!
Thank you very much JPlayer, for your bias!!!
Cheers!

[J_Player]

Now you see why i do insist to know more details on shoe type!
It is not the same and it makes the difference!

Both; Reebok and Nike are high impedance, but Nike are ultra high ... while Reebok is just high impedance!
Other hand... following this logic; bare foot will also be variable in impedance because there are differences in foot skin thickness.
Along with that i think there also can be important if feet are freshly washed or not?
Bare foot LRL'st with freshly washed feet maybe presents lower impedance input for stray signals?
So i guess; to achieve ultra high impedance: man LRL'st must not wash it's feet for some time!?
We actually can experiment and adopt some "feet impedance scale" which will
represent various impedances which are dependable on how many days, weeks, months our feet are not washed?
How about that?
I think this is good idea, because at the end we can achieve the same effect as with brand new Nike's - only this time with much less costs!?
How about that?
Splendid idea!
I knew i am smart person! Only i need slight bias from time to time!
Thank you very much JPlayer, for your bias!!!
Cheers!Ultimate solution:
Teflon shoes!
It cost more money, but worth it because all dielectric problems are gone. :super:

Best wishes,
J_P

[ivconic]

Considering "Feet impedance scale" experiments... now what we need here is volunteer to perform such long term experiments and form such scale!
I would like to be the one... but pity i can't!
There is cold here in Serbia and i might catch some disease walking bare foot like that.
Ok... not washing my feet for longer period can help me a bit and protect me from cold... but i simply do not have conditions for such experiment.
Maybe next summer?
In meantime we could use help from some "southerns" who's are living on more warm places?
Who will be better than our fellows from South America?
Do i need to name them?
Of course not!
...
Ok, we will have to wait for volunteer to apply for this important experiment!
...
Until than, i would like to remind all of us here on one very important (crucial) question we should resolve first:

LRL signal, what type of signal it is and what should be it's properties and features??

As usual; i will firstly await our fellows LRL experts to appear and give us here most proper answer!
Many thanks in advance!

[ivconic]

In meantime, while we wait volunteer, i was thinking;
those bare foot LRL'sts actually are saving a lot of money walking around bare feet!
They do achieve several benefits mutually!
They do dowse and they save money by not buying shoes at all!
Along with that, not washing their feet for longer period they also can "trimm" feet impedance by the desire!
That's what's called "natural born LRL experts" !
Wow!

[ivconic]

Nobody yet to answer!??
I thought this forum is the best place to ask such questions?
So many LRL experts here and yet no one to have answer on such simple question?

[Carl-NC]

Don't feel bad... 13 years and no answer.

[ivconic]

Don't feel bad... 13 years and no answer.

If you could wait so long; i guess i will have to wait too.
Never mind, sometimes questions are more important than answers.
I have patience enough!
:lol:

[ivconic]

... and sometimes silence is the best possible answer! :lol:

[kt315]

answer is famous. leave the people in their nescience.

[ivconic]

Nice photo KT315!
That "Thor" guy... i guess he was bare feet LRL walker too?
But what bugs me mostly now is that square lid on the top of his head?!
Damn... i must discover what was the use of that square lid there!

[ivconic]

Just look the smile on his bony face!
Looking so satisfied!
Maybe he was one really rare successful LRL dowser?
Smiling so mysteriously ... just like Mona Lisa!
He must know something that i don't! :angry:

[J_Player]

Just look the smile on his bony face!
Looking so satisfied!
Maybe he was one really rare successful LRL dowser?
Smiling so mysteriously ... just like Mona Lisa!
He must know something that i don't! :angry: Sure, he was successful when he was using his variable-impedance bare feet.
But he soon discovered the shocking consequences.
Of course he will never tell what things he kept hidden under the square lid.... :rolleyes:


Best wishes,
J_P

[ivconic]

Sure, he was successful when he was using his variable-impedance bare feet.
But he soon discovered the shocking consequences.
Of course he will never tell what things he kept hidden behind the square door.... :rolleyes:


Best wishes,
J_P

Those LRL guys! They all behave so typical and so predictive!:angry:

[goldfinder]

Yes - the signal type is a longitudinal wave. You either missed this or ignored this answer to your question for some reason.

Figure out longitudinal wave generation and detection and you will have your perfect detector.

Goldfinder

[kt315]

spectrum :D

[WM6]

spectrum :D



Yes, wishful spectrum - one more wishful theory.

They put on other side of Electromagnetic spectrum so called SUPER spectrum.

I know what "electromagnetic" mean, but what mean "SUPER"?

According this theory (look at drawings) this Super-spectrum is related wit Possession and Schizophrenia - this can be taken as possible explanation.

[Mike(Mont)]

This gets it right to the point, doesn't it? Even if your Average Joe LRL user doesn't know the answer to this, an LRL manufacturer should, eh? Can you imagine a metal detector designer who has no idea how a metal detector works?

I've also asked about the nature of signal lines for 13 years and gotten different answers, and no answers. I've also done my own testing and experiments on trying to physically detect the signal and gotten exactly zero results. Now, I agree, and have repeatedly admitted, there is a possibility that the signal line is almost unmeasurable, and that some people might possess a skill that I do not.

That is why I invite experienced "successful" users to show me their results. Most refuse. Many don't even want to talk about it, insisting that any kind of test is faulty. Yet they are more than willing to discuss their techniques and beliefs and the fact that you need to "practice" to get good at it. OK, how do you practice? What do you do?

Mike is a manufacturer, but cannot answer even the most basic question about his device:

Mike, besides being smooth, can you tell me exactly what your Revelation Locator Rod can do? What did you design it to do, and what does it actually do?

If I created a "metal detector" which had a smoother audio sound than any other metal detector, but it didn't actually detect metal, how much would that feature be worth to you? Can your RLR actually do anything useful? Can that usefulness be demonstrated? How would the manufacturer of metal detectors respond? Or cars? Or pianos?

Mike, if you were trying to demonstrate your Revelation Locator Rod to a potential customer, how would you do it? I would assume that you would use a method that demonstrates some reasonable level of success, so can you describe a simple test scenario for your device that you feel you can succeed with, say, 70% of the time?

C'mon Mike, now you're a manufacturer, you no longer have the luxury of dismissing or ignoring these questions! Even if I cannot measure or "feel" these signal lines, can you? Can you show me? No one else can, including a manufacturer, and including the fellow last weekend; all have failed miserably. Not even one single success! Are you so certain of failure that you won't even try?

- Carl

I hardly consider myself an LRL manufacturer and I don't make any profit. I get a small hourly wage for the work I do and I don't expect to ever break even on the development time. I did build about a dozen rods a couple years ago, still have a few. I didn't build anything magical into the rod. It just does not hang up like most rods do. It has what I call a "low start-up torque threshold". I sweep the rod very slowly and that gives more time to catch the signal. So yes, it is very sensitive so much so that most beginners can not hold it still. I don't like to sell them to beginners because I know they will get frustrated. To be honest there are not very many people who have enough rod skills to use one. As I tell buyers, you have to work with it to get the benefits. It takes time to "grow' your right brain and to learn to meditate, to clear the mind.

I never said I am certain of failure. I have no idea what kind of impediments you will throw at me. I've said before I wouldn't blame you if you did. It's your money and why would you want to give it away? I never said you are crazy. Those tests of extreme odds for money are like sucker bait. You get desperate people who will try anything to get the money and they don't have a clue to the amount of difficulty. I'm sure many people on the forums think I have a big ego. That's because they don't have a clue. If you want to dowse or use a locator you have to lose the ego, the veil of awareness. It's a totally different world than what you know when you rely on reason, intellect, the five senses. It's beyond your comprehension.

[J_Player]

.... Those tests of extreme odds for money are like sucker bait. You get desperate people who will try anything to get the money and they don't have a clue to the amount of difficulty. What?
What are you talking about? :shocked:

What difficulty?
It is only difficult to find a hidden object from one of ten possible locations if you are trying to guess the location.
You have a ten percent chance of guessing the correct location.

But if dowsing and LRLs work as you say, then there is no problem to locate which of the ten possible locations.
Are you now telling us that dowsing and LRLs are not suitable to determine where the hidden object is located?
Are you now saying the dowsing and LRLs have the same difficulty as guessing to locate a hidden object?


Best wishes,
J_P

[Carl-NC]

I hardly consider myself an LRL manufacturer and I don't make any profit. I get a small hourly wage for the work I do and I don't expect to ever break even on the development time. I did build about a dozen rods a couple years ago, still have a few. I didn't build anything magical into the rod. It just does not hang up like most rods do. It has what I call a "low start-up torque threshold". I sweep the rod very slowly and that gives more time to catch the signal. So yes, it is very sensitive so much so that most beginners can not hold it still. I don't like to sell them to beginners because I know they will get frustrated. To be honest there are not very many people who have enough rod skills to use one. As I tell buyers, you have to work with it to get the benefits. It takes time to "grow' your right brain and to learn to meditate, to clear the mind.

I never said I am certain of failure. I have no idea what kind of impediments you will throw at me. I've said before I wouldn't blame you if you did. It's your money and why would you want to give it away? I never said you are crazy. Those tests of extreme odds for money are like sucker bait. You get desperate people who will try anything to get the money and they don't have a clue to the amount of difficulty. I'm sure many people on the forums think I have a big ego. That's because they don't have a clue. If you want to dowse or use a locator you have to lose the ego, the veil of awareness. It's a totally different world than what you know when you rely on reason, intellect, the five senses. It's beyond your comprehension.

Mike, I read and re-read your response, and I can see absolutely no attempt to answer the questions I asked. So I'll try again.

Can you tell me exactly what your Revelation Locator Rod can do? What did you design it to do, and what does it actually do?

Can your RLR actually do anything useful? Can that usefulness be demonstrated? If you were trying to demonstrate your Revelation Locator Rod to a potential customer, how would you do it?

You've stated many times the need to "practice" to get good at it. OK, how do you practice? What do you do?

These are not scandalous questions. I could easily apply all of them to metal detectors, and then answer them in detail.

[ivconic]

Yes - the signal type is a longitudinal wave. You either missed this or ignored this answer to your question for some reason.

Figure out longitudinal wave generation and detection and you will have your perfect detector.

Goldfinder

Are you sure?
Are you really really sure?!
If you are than please reconsider what have you just answered:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longitudinal_wave

Please read this and reconsider.
Try to understand the definition of longitudinal waves.
In addition see this link:

http://www.edinformatics.com/math_science/transverse_longitudinal_waves.htm

[ivconic]

I just wanted to point on this:
http://www.crystalinks.com/grids.html

But than i saw this:
"...Planetary Energetic Grid Theory falls under the heading of pseudoscience..."

Aren't those all? :rotfl

[Max]

Happened about two months ago.

Sitting by the beach I spotted a dowser at distance. When he suddenly marked a spot I aproached. He tried the regular bishop's method to check the depth and the target apperared relatively shallow.

Some guy with a MD also aproached. I saw 'whites' written. He passed the thing over the spot and nodded his head to the dowser. The dowser insisted that was the spot. The MD guy again recalibrated the device, swept the space around much like a floor polisher and nothing.
Then another detectorist aproached with a minelab. I think an explorer or something like that. He swept the same spot but not getting also a response, he started to move the coil quikly and he got a faint signal, real weak. He started to dig, signal slowly getting stronger. Then a coin popped up.

Humm... Did this prove that the whites MD is a piece of crap? Yes? No? Could it be that the whites operator was not competent enough to succeed? Yes? No?

Interesting... really interesting...

By the way, does somebody know how the minelab lawsuit against whites is going? Updates?

Carl?...

your story prove nothing apart that at the beach things can get covered by sand very easy and so can be found at depth and a conventional MD may miss them... and that some white's models have less sens at the beach than minelab ones... no big news I say

then... put another way: your story doesn't mean that the guy with LRL detected something apart noise or his self-deception, but just that if you go in any visited beaches in the world and start sweeping an MD in some few square meters you'll get some signal , sooner or later, if the MD has enough detection range to detect something buried deep

obviously if both MDs found nothing in that case the LRL guy could always say that the target is 10 meters deep and their MDs sucks...

:lol:

this last remember me the other story you told of a sunk boat in the sea or something with tons of gold you detected from the beach at several Kms distance...

:rolleyes:

regards,
Max
;)

[Mike(Mont)]

Mike, I read and re-read your response, and I can see absolutely no attempt to answer the questions I asked. So I'll try again.

Can you tell me exactly what your Revelation Locator Rod can do? What did you design it to do, and what does it actually do?

Can your RLR actually do anything useful? Can that usefulness be demonstrated? If you were trying to demonstrate your Revelation Locator Rod to a potential customer, how would you do it?

You've stated many times the need to "practice" to get good at it. OK, how do you practice? What do you do?

These are not scandalous questions. I could easily apply all of them to metal detectors, and then answer them in detail.

I don't make any claims and I'm not really interested in telling you what I think. Besides, everyone uses it as they see fit. I use it to detect the signal line from an MFD. I don't try to sell them. If you want to do a test it will cost you the $2500 and I will throw in some lessons and a rod. If I win I will wave the fee. I will have a few requirements like you will not be allowed within fifty yards of the test area in case you decide to "throw a wrench into the gears" (sprinkle some powder over the area to contaminate things). Also I will require the gold to be washed so there is no sealant on it. I don't recall reading your conditions, but I assume they are like randi's and you will only pay if you feel like it. As you can see I don't even care if I win.

[Qiaozhi]

What do you mean by this? ->
I don't make any claims and I'm not really interested in telling you what I think.
Previously you said, "It just does not hang up like most rods do." ... that sounds like a claim to me.
And, "It has what I call a "low start-up torque threshold"." ... another claim.
And, "So yes, it is very sensitive so much so that most beginners can not hold it still." ... yet another claim
And the final [big] claim. "But I have never found anything better for the money than a good frequency generator (Ramsey digital w/12v battery) and my Revelation Locator Rod (RLR)."

Personally, I think you're very very interested in telling us what you think. But not so interested in giving a direct answer to Carl's questions. Why is that?

[Carl-NC]

Are you sure?
Are you really really sure?!
If you are than please reconsider what have you just answered:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longitudinal_wave


One of the problems with asking "What is an LRL signal?" is that the answer can be (and usually is) based entirely within pseudoscience. There is literally no limit to the amount of junk science LRL proponents can toss into the discussions. And how can you possibly discuss the issue when they're so far out of touch with reality?

That's why I prefer a simple "Show Me." That gets 'em every time. All those theories are worth exactly squat when they fail to make the durn thing work, every single time.

[goldfinder]

Are you sure?
Are you really really sure?!
If you are than please reconsider what have you just answered:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longitudinal_wave

Please read this and reconsider.
Try to understand the definition of longitudinal waves.
In addition see this link:

http://www.edinformatics.com/math_science/transverse_longitudinal_waves.htm



Yes - read:
http://spiritualscience.net.au/resources/konstantin-meyl.html

http://www.meyl.eu/go/index.php?dir=40_Media&page=1&sublevel=0

There is a lot more. Tom Bearden discussed scalar waves and mentioned briefly in one of his talks that using scalar waves which are longitudinal waves can be used to detect at long distances. He also mentioned some of his associates had such detectors.

I also know a person who has such a detector. He is located in western Texas and does surveys with his equipment. Unfortunately, he is not interested in any notoriety.

I am giving you folks some hints so you can research this if you have the inclination. I am not interested in discussing this subject as none on this website have ever indicated any knowledge of new advanced technology nor do any of you seem to have the background. so you can chew away on me an make any fun of this you want but this is new technology coming down that is quite groundbreaking.

Goldfinder

[WM6]

... new advanced technology nor do any of you seem to have the background.



Agree one need a huge of blackground for such "new advanced technology".




..... this is new technology coming down....



Agree again, this new technology is really coming very very down.

[Carl-NC]

I don't make any claims and I'm not really interested in telling you what I think. Besides, everyone uses it as they see fit. I use it to detect the signal line from an MFD. I don't try to sell them. If you want to do a test it will cost you the $2500 and I will throw in some lessons and a rod. If I win I will wave the fee. I will have a few requirements like you will not be allowed within fifty yards of the test area in case you decide to "throw a wrench into the gears" (sprinkle some powder over the area to contaminate things). Also I will require the gold to be washed so there is no sealant on it. I don't recall reading your conditions, but I assume they are like randi's and you will only pay if you feel like it. As you can see I don't even care if I win.

I am shocked, once again you completely avoided the questions. Why are these questions so easy for a metal detector but so difficult for an LRL?

I personally saw your devices at the Texas Treasure Show a couple of years ago, where you were trying to sell them through a vendor (you even said so). So what does the durn thing do? Anything? Nothing? Whatever the buyer wants to believe it does?

Mike, I don't think you can do jack squat. I believe you are blowing smoke, nothing but a blustering bombastic braggart. The statements you've made over the years concerning your abilities are misleading, deceptive, and downright fabricated. You can't even dowse!

And now you want me to pay you to watch you fail? Why in the world would I do that? Arch on TNet also wanted me to pay to watch him fail. Is that the New Standard for LRL proponents? This tells me more than ever that not only can you not do it, but you yourself are 100% convinced that you cannot do it! And everyone else knows it, too.

You make and sell a device that does nothing useful, you want me to pay you $2500 to see it fail, and you call me unethical? Do you see an h-bomb in any of this?

[Jim]

I would pay to watch Mike fail.

Humor such as this is priceless.

[J_Player]

I would pay to watch Mike fail.

Humor such as this is priceless.Not me...
I can see hundreds of strangers fail every time at the local beach.
It is easy.
Take whatever LRL you can get your hands on and go to the beach where people hunt for lost jewelry.
Then walk around with the LRL as if to search for something buried.
People will ask what the heck you think you are doing.

This is your chance.
You tell them this is a treasure machine... Here, try it out...
And watch them fail to find anything, at no cost to you.

Better idea is to go metal detecting at the beach.
Then you get a chance to find lost jewelry instead of watching LRL failures. :good


Best wishes,
J_P

[Carl-NC]

I won't pay a dime for failure, but would pay dearly to see success. Requirement #1 is someone who believes they can actually do the dirty deed. Mike doesn't even meet this threshold, and the funny part is, he said so!

[J_Player]

I won't pay a dime for failure, but would pay dearly to see success. Requirement #1 is someone who believes they can actually do the dirty deed. Mike doesn't even meet this threshold, and the funny part is, he said so!Yup, he did.
:rotfl


Best wishes,
J_P

[ivconic]

One of the problems with asking "What is an LRL signal?" is that the answer can be (and usually is) based entirely within pseudoscience. There is literally no limit to the amount of junk science LRL proponents can toss into the discussions. And how can you possibly discuss the issue when they're so far out of touch with reality?

That's why I prefer a simple "Show Me." That gets 'em every time. All those theories are worth exactly squat when they fail to make the durn thing work, every single time.

It is a fact, neither than i; never actually saw neither one case which can support nor prove any of such claims.
Ok, those devices simply are not working, but what is most funny is the fact that all those people actually can't explain nor
understand the "working" principles (maybe because there aren't any at all! :lol: ) of those devices they are usually using!?
That's the most funniest fact in whole story!
I am using conventional VLF I/B and PI and i can understand how those are working , also i can explain that to someone who might ask me,
but LRL proponents ;those - can not do the same with their devices! :lol:
I purposely started this topic and asked such simple question just to show that fact.
"..There is literally no limit to the amount of junk science LRL proponents can toss into the discussions. .."
That's also fact and we were and are witness of it on these forums.
So far we saw rich variety of most unbelievable explanations, theories, "facts".... sheeesh!
Again, i wanted all those people to return to the beginning of a story and just to try to answer on very simple question.
So far i get only "longitudinal waves" as answer!? Not true! Of course!
Not only that answer was wrong - but also is most nonsense answer that i could imagine!
I don't need to debate this, it is so trivial and absurd, that's why i only gave link to Wiki definitions of lwaves...
You (Carl) already debunked pretty successfully another theory - "ionic...whatever it was" , in the past.
So; answer is NOT "lwaves" and answer is not "ions or whatever similar"...
Ok.. let's wait to hear something new!
:rotfl

[ivconic]

Yes - read:
http://spiritualscience.net.au/resources/konstantin-meyl.html

http://www.meyl.eu/go/index.php?dir=40_Media&page=1&sublevel=0

There is a lot more. Tom Bearden discussed scalar waves and mentioned briefly in one of his talks that using scalar waves which are longitudinal waves can be used to detect at long distances. He also mentioned some of his associates had such detectors.

I also know a person who has such a detector. He is located in western Texas and does surveys with his equipment. Unfortunately, he is not interested in any notoriety.

I am giving you folks some hints so you can research this if you have the inclination. I am not interested in discussing this subject as none on this website have ever indicated any knowledge of new advanced technology nor do any of you seem to have the background. so you can chew away on me an make any fun of this you want but this is new technology coming down that is quite groundbreaking.

Goldfinder

Ok, i wanted to respect your attitude and visited that link, although to tell you the truth;
usually i wouldn't do such thing because anything that starts like "spiritual..." is already having very negative contest in my mind.
And word "spiritual..." in the headline of that page is already telling us much! :lol:
Like Carl previously noticed; there is a lot of "sense" taken from regular science and mixed up with pseudo science, offered in such and similar articles.
That's why such articles are usually perfect "catch up" and decoy for most of naive and common sensed people that are about to enter the "LRL world".
OK, just pay attention on this sentence:
"...The missing experimental pieces in Meyl's theory eventually came from the work of Tesla.." !!
It's been said "eventually" ! :lol:
And that puts the end on the rest of a story.
As Nikola Tesla compatriot and the one who is pretty interested in his work;
i simply don't like to see how various people tends so easy to mix his name and work with something which usually has nothing to do with.
Who the heck is Tom Bearden!?
Retired Lieutenant Colonel U.S. Army!
So?
Do i have to take him serious?
We here are also having one Retired Lieutenant Colonel named Zvonimir Jankovic, the inventor of Radijan 97 and Radijan 2001.
Already mentioned here:
http://www.geotech1.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12112

So?
Just another charlatan as all those retired army people!
:rotfl:rotfl:rotfl

[ivconic]

Scalar Waves: Theory and Experiments
KONSTANTIN MEYL

http://www.scientificexploration.org/journal/jse_15_2_meyl.pdf

[ivconic]

http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=238709


Wikipedia.org labels Scalar Wave theory as pseudoscience.


".....We do not permit crackpot theories here on the PF....." :rotfl:rotfl:rotfl

See? Now you also can see why Carl is most democratic forum owner ever! :thumb:

[ivconic]

"...It's that time again - yes, we have yet another wacko reinvention of physics that pretends to have math on its side...."
:rotfl:rotfl:rotfl

[ivconic]

Actually; whole story is turning all the time around this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coulomb_potential

Which also has nothing to do with LRL! :rotfl

[ivconic]

Sheeeesh!
I made HUGE mistake now by posting these links!
Because now it can provoke bedlam of new LRL designs!
I bet majority will be based on Coulomb's torsion balance!!!
Carl get ready for the incoming LRL tsunami here!
:rotfl:rotfl:rotfl

[satdaveuk]

Very interesting stuff but none of it makes sense to me at all can anyone here actually explain how this system works in engineering terms or is it a science beyond human realms8)

[ivconic]

Very interesting stuff but none of it makes sense to me at all can anyone here actually explain how this system works in engineering terms or is it a science beyond human realms8)

:rotfl:rotfl:rotfl

That's the point!
No one of us ("skeptics") actually can't understand it either!
That's what is all this fuss about!
That's why i started this topic and asked very simple question for a start.
Because, once we do discover what kind of signal (if any) is present and "received" by common LRL device - later it would be real piece of cake to establish rules and make real working LRL device (unlikely that will ever happen)!
So, now you see!
:rotfl:rotfl:rotfl

[Qiaozhi]

Carl get ready for the incoming LRL tsunami here!
:rotfl:rotfl:rotfl
That made me chuckle! :clap

[kt315]

I know what "electromagnetic" mean, but what mean "SUPER"?

some substance... you know it as the God ;)
if you did learn LRL method more... I hope on that... you have to read the mantra & prayers. if you are NOT able to do that - go out from LRL, it is not yourself! the mantra and meditation are MAIN RULE in LRL :nono: leave also the drinking! you must be absoliutely teetotal in a scanning process! you see - there is NOT a place for ANY electronics! :nono:

[satdaveuk]

:rotfl:rotfl:rotfl

That's the point!
No one of us ("skeptics") actually can't understand it either!
That's what is all this fuss about!
That's why i started this topic and asked very simple question for a start.
Because, once we do discover what kind of signal (if any) is present and "received" by common LRL device - later it would be real piece of cake to establish rules and make real working LRL device (unlikely that will ever happen)!
So, now you see!
:rotfl:rotfl:rotfl
Yes I can see the light, very very long tunnel and I think there is a very small glimer of hope shall meditate tonight instead of bonking the mrs:razz:

[Carl-NC]

Time for an assignment. Please write a research paper on pseudoscience. You may choose from these topics:

http://www.physics.smu.edu/pseudo/topics.html

Goldfinder, why would Konstantin Meyl be near the top of a list of pseudoscience topics at SMU? Is he considered a crackpot?

[J_Player]

Ok, i wanted to respect your attitude and visited that link, although to tell you the truth;
usually i wouldn't do such thing because anything that starts like "spiritual..." is already having very negative contest in my mind.
And word "spiritual..." in the headline of that page is already telling us much! :lol:
Like Carl previously noticed; there is a lot of "sense" taken from regular science and mixed up with pseudo science, offered in such and similar articles.
That's why such articles are usually perfect "catch up" and decoy for most of naive and common sensed people that are about to enter the "LRL world".
OK, just pay attention on this sentence:
"...The missing experimental pieces in Meyl's theory eventually came from the work of Tesla.." !!
It's been said "eventually" ! :lol:
And that puts the end on the rest of a story.
As Nikola Tesla compatriot and the one who is pretty interested in his work;
i simply don't like to see how various people tends so easy to mix his name and work with something which usually has nothing to do with.
Who the heck is Tom Bearden!?
Retired Lieutenant Colonel U.S. Army!
So?
Do i have to take him serious?
We here are also having one Retired Lieutenant Colonel named Zvonimir Jankovic, the inventor of Radijan 97 and Radijan 2001.
Already mentioned here:
http://www.geotech1.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12112

So?
Just another charlatan as all those retired army people!
:rotfl:rotfl:rotfl

Hi Ivconic,

Tom Bearden is exactly as you say -- a retired army officer.
After he decided to become an important physicist and inventor, he proclaimed that he achieved these accomplishments:

He unified Physics
Revealed an exact scientifically proven method to cure cancer, leukemia and AIDS
Revealed the "fundamental" secret of over-unity
Revealed the "final secret" of free energy
Showed how to deactivate radioactive materials
Proved electromagnetism is a longitudinal phenomena like a sound wave
Proved all the fundamentals of modern EM theory are wrong
Proved that only "corroded" or "contaminated" materials are suitable for over-unity research. The worse the quality of the materials, the better
Invented a "MEG" that outputs 7-100 times the amount of input power
He feels he deserves "more than a Nobel prize" for his work listed above

The problem:
1. The math Bearden used to calculate his free power machines shows he does not understand basic textbook physics. But worse, he doesn't understand the basic math needed for measuring power, such as P = VI = V²/R and the associated AC sine wave power equations. This is understandable considering he purchased a fake PHD from Trinity College and University.
2. There is no experimental data to back up any of the above claims, and a large mass of data to suggest he is wrong in every case listed.
3. In the past 8 years since he revealed all these secrets, invented the MEG over-unity generator, and revealed the final secret of free energy, we haven't seen a single example of any of his secrets working. Where is the free power? where are the new medical tools that cure cancer, leukemia and AIDs?

See more Tom Bearden details here: http://www.nuscam.com/pdf/case_study.pdf

This is why I don't think his theories could explain the "signal" for dowsing or LRLs.


Best wishes,
J_P

[ivconic]

Hi Ivconic,

Tom Bearden is exactly as you say -- a retired army officer.
After he decided to become an important physicist and inventor, he proclaimed that he achieved these accomplishments:

He unified Physics
Revealed an exact scientifically proven method to cure cancer, leukemia and AIDS
Revealed the "fundamental" secret of over-unity
Revealed the "final secret" of free energy
Showed how to deactivate radioactive materials
Proved electromagnetism is a longitudinal phenomena like a sound wave
Proved all the fundamentals of modern EM theory are wrong
Proved that only "corroded" or "contaminated" materials are suitable for over-unity research. The worse the quality of the materials, the better
Invented a "MEG" that outputs 7-100 times the amount of input power
He feels he deserves "more than a Nobel prize" for his work listed above

The problem:
1. The math Bearden used to calculate his free power machines shows he does not understand basic textbook physics. But worse, he doesn't understand the basic math needed for measuring power, such as P = VI = V²/R and the associated AC sine wave power equations. This is understandable considering he purchased a fake PHD from Trinity College and University.
2. There is no experimental data to back up any of the above claims, and a large mass of data to suggest he is wrong in every case listed.
3. In the past 8 years since he revealed all these secrets, invented the MEG over-unity generator, and revealed the final secret of free energy, we haven't seen a single example of any of his secrets working. Where is the free power? where are the new medical tools that cure cancer, leukemia and AIDs?

See more Tom Bearden details here: http://www.nuscam.com/pdf/case_study.pdf

This is why I don't think his theories could explain the "signal" for dowsing or LRLs.


Best wishes,
J_P

:rotfl:rotfl:rotfl
Oh man!
That really made me laugh!
...
My question: "Who the heck is Tom Bearden!?" was rhetorical.
Of course i do understand the man was a crackpot!
It is so obvious even on a skim look.
I also mentioned our Serbian " Tom Bearden" - Zvonimir Jankovic, also retired army officer and also enthusiast on such matters (other words - a crackpot).
...
Internet is dangerous, you know?
Because we, the laymen, can be easily fooled reading similar articles as Bearden's etc..
Nowdays any crackpot may appear on the internet and post anything that he likes.
Bearden is, no doubt, literate guy and can fool somebody easily with his "deeply profound" articles. No doubt in that.
I, myself, also was "victim" so many times in the past, reading some "profound" and "serious" articles by some people.
But that's the beauty of places like this forum: we gather here, we talk, exchange opinions and experiences ... = we learn! :)
Only restive people will refuse to learn from debates like this one, but that's their problem.
Cheers!

[ivconic]

Time for an assignment. Please write a research paper on pseudoscience. You may choose from these topics:

http://www.physics.smu.edu/pseudo/topics.html

Goldfinder, why would Konstantin Meyl be near the top of a list of pseudoscience topics at SMU? Is he considered a crackpot?

This catches my eye:
http://www.thesun.co.uk/scotsol/homepage/news/2785580/Woman-beats-cancer-with-mistletoe.html

I really doubt that cancer can be cured with Mistletoe.
I bet there were several parallel factors which helped that woman to cure.
...
Anyway, i do know something else about Mistletoe.
My neighbor completely regulated blood pressure with Mistletoe in just 3-4 months.
Was not miracle to be considered as one.
Each morning he drinks a glass of Mistletoe tea.. and that was all.
After 3-4 months his blood analyzes showed perfect condition.
....
Maybe i slipped a bit off topic (sorry) but since i am talking about such things; i would also like to mention Ganoderma Lucidum fungus.
Not miracle cure for every possible disease - but surely pretty interesting and effective for improving mans health.
....
Back to topic,
wow! Carl that link is really interesting!
I think i will laugh much tonight!
Cheers!

[ivconic]

Reason i am mixing in LRL subjects is not because of my huge love upon argues, God no!
But simply because i would like to see how LRL people are really thinking?
What is the motif to some of them being so persistent?
Occasional success? I doubt that.
Commercial motifs? Yes, that's the case at some of them, but not to all of them.
Illiteracy and ignorance? No, i don't think so, because most of LRL people i met are pretty literate and educated up to some level.
So what should be the motif?
Do they really believe that much?
If we took dowsing as guessing game (essentially it is) than rate of success ideally can be 50% : 50 % (wish only, reality is more rude than that).
So, i was wandering all the time about their inner thoughts about other 50% (in reality barely 10% of good guesses, if we talk serious)?
How they explaining self such bad success rate?
That's what i wanted to hear from them.
Because i do know and understand my own (bad or good) success rate with my detectors.
When i have bad luck with my detectors; i do try to find a reason for that.
And usually i manage to find it.
Either is poor detector, or poor working conditions, weather conditions, poor terrain...etc..etc..
But how to self explain bad luck if you are dowser?
That's what i wanted to know, among other things!

[ivconic]

I have few friends, dowsers.
I like to talk with them and try to persuade them to give up of such nonsense.
Also i am following their success rate. It is more than poor.
But, fact is that each one of those do have (and carry with) one conventional md, just in any case! :D
So if they miss to locate something by dowsing, there is always good old md to continue with.
None of those can explain more soberly what they are doing with dowsing.
They "feel" something, but what? Nobody can explain soberly.
And 99% of their targets are never discovered.
Various reasons for that: too deep, too unclear "signal"...etc..etc..
"Who's gonna dig such deep hole now?" - most favorite excuse!:lol:
"There are no conditions now, at the moment, but surely we will return back soon, with proper tools, and we will dig it out!" :lol:
It is fun to watch those people.
It is fun to talk with them.
Yet none of those can't explain what kind of "signal" they are "receiving" when dowsing.
Most recent case is one friend with Ranger Teller.
Pretty cool guy, educated well, smart... yet to much "believer", if you ask me.
He is locating dozen "strong signals" each time we go outdoor.
I tried so hard to pull out from him recognition that RT was a piece of crap and nothing else, yet i haven't success!
No matter i explained to him that nothing revolutionary and secret is going on in that funny calculator, nor in few nonsense wired components inside RT box - no success.
"There is some process that's going on, yet" - he says!
And at the same time he is unable to explain and elaborate!
Along with him , there are 4-5 friends more.
All those are constantly pushing me to "rethink and reconsider" all the "technique" and knowledge i have and to involve my self in making "something that will work more better"!
I tried, i made Zahori's for each one of those, although first i explained them what is Zahori.
I made dozen other nonsense devices and apparatuses.
Each one of those i made is "working" ... by them! :lol:
But "it is not complete accurate, must be that there is a way to do it a bit better.."!
I am not taking no money for granted nor based on frauds and lies.
Each time i get such demand, i do perform long patience talk, trying to persuade them to give up.
Also i do backup my efforts with all possible arguments that i have against dowsing.
Yet... no benefit from such my efforts...!?
So, they want something to achieve... only they don't know how! Neither than me!:lol:
They "feel" something... only they don't know what is it! Neither than me! :lol:
Rate of their success is more than devastating, yet they don't give up!
So.. how to be smart about this "human phenomena" !? :lol:

[J_Player]

I have few friends, dowsers.
I like to talk with them and try to persuade them to give up of such nonsense.
Also i am following their success rate. It is more than poor.
But, fact is that each one of those do have (and carry with) one conventional md, just in any case! :D
So if they miss to locate something by dowsing, there is always good old md to continue with.
None of those can explain more soberly what they are doing with dowsing.
They "feel" something, but what? Nobody can explain soberly.
And 99% of their targets are never discovered.
Various reasons for that: too deep, too unclear "signal"...etc..etc..
"Who's gonna dig such deep hole now?" - most favorite excuse!:lol:
"There are no conditions now, at the moment, but surely we will return back soon, with proper tools, and we will dig it out!" :lol:
It is fun to watch those people.
It is fun to talk with them.
Yet none of those can't explain what kind of "signal" they are "receiving" when dowsing.
Most recent case is one friend with Ranger Teller.
Pretty cool guy, educated well, smart... yet to much "believer", if you ask me.
He is locating dozen "strong signals" each time we go outdoor.
I tried so hard to pull out from him recognition that RT was a piece of crap and nothing else, yet i haven't success!
No matter i explained to him that nothing revolutionary and secret is going on in that funny calculator, nor in few nonsense wired components inside RT box - no success.
"There is some process that's going on, yet" - he says!
And at the same time he is unable to explain and elaborate!
Along with him , there are 4-5 friends more.
All those are constantly pushing me to "rethink and reconsider" all the "technique" and knowledge i have and to involve my self in making "something that will work more better"!
I tried, i made Zahori's for each one of those, although first i explained them what is Zahori.
I made dozen other nonsense devices and apparatuses.
Each one of those i made is "working" ... by them! :lol:
But "it is not complete accurate, must be that there is a way to do it a bit better.."!
I am not taking no money for granted nor based on frauds and lies.
Each time i get such demand, i do perform long patience talk, trying to persuade them to give up.
Also i do backup my efforts with all possible arguments that i have against dowsing.
Yet... no benefit from such my efforts...!?
So, they want something to achieve... only they don't know how! Neither than me!:lol:
They "feel" something... only they don't know what is it! Neither than me! :lol:
Rate of their success is more than devastating, yet they don't give up!
So.. how to be smart about this "human phenomena" !? :lol: If I dowsed to find an ancient treasure where a king buried 40 tons of gold statues 30 meters deep, I would not waste my time proving that my dowsing works.
Who would want to dig for 30 meters deep?
You would need to buy ladders and other supplies for going in the hole you dig and you could become injured during the excavation.
Then what if the sides of the hole cave in and bury you?

It is a much happier idea to feel good that you detected 40 tons of gold statues and know your dowsing works.
All will be happy if there is no skeptic nearby. :)

Best wishes,
J_P

[ivconic]

If I dowsed to find an ancient treasure where a king buried 40 tons of gold statues 30 meters deep, I would not waste my time proving that my dowsing works.
Who would want to dig for 30 meters deep?
You would need to buy ladders and other supplies for going in the hole you dig and you could become injured during the excavation.
Then what if the sides of the hole cave in and bury you?

It is a much happier idea to feel good that you detected 40 tons of gold statues and know your dowsing works.
All will be happy if there is no skeptic nearby. :)

Best wishes,
J_P

:rotfl
Indeed,seems so!
Fisherman tales are always better than living fish!
Anyway, apart from their "dark LRL side" if their minds; those are nice people to be friend with. And funny too!
But time came when various "Zahori's...RT's...etc..etc.." are not enough no more! :lol:
Lately i am faced with numerous demands to "discover something more accurate" , no matter the costs! :lol:
Last thing i done was setup that looks like Omnitron.. or Radijan2001.
For less than 180e i bought this:
http://www.ldbwebtronics.com/newfusige0vc.html
and had to make pretty annoying accu setup in separate enclosure, because VC2002 is having 2x18V + 1x9v supply!
Had to arrange 12v+6v(18v) + 6v+12v(18v) and one separate 12v(via 7809).
Problem was in how to charge those gell cells with one 12v automatic charger.
And also not to take them out from enclosure each time when need to be recharged!?
So i figured it out and decided to have 4x "12v" to be charged one by one!
That's why i use those two 6v, so i could (with rotary switch 1x12) "make" one 12v from two 6v , when is about to be charged!
Sheeeesh! So annoying it was to wire up whole arrangement!
So, than i achieved battery operated VC2002. :lol:
At it's output 2 probes were added, ground probes (antennas).
So that presents complete "TX". Adjustable amplitude, freq, shape and cycle rate!
"RX" part is mentioned RT! :rotfl
What can i do?
It's not mine to "think" - but to work! So i did it!
Will see soon if there is positive feedback! :lol:
...
P.S.
Ain't life beautiful!?
:rotfl

[J_Player]

:rotfl
Indeed,seems so!
Fisherman tales are always better than living fish!
Anyway, apart from their "dark LRL side" if their minds; those are nice people to be friend with. And funny too!
But time came when various "Zahori's...RT's...etc..etc.." are not enough no more! :lol:
Lately i am faced with numerous demands to "discover something more accurate" , no matter the costs! :lol:
Last thing i done was setup that looks like Omnitron.. or Radijan2001.
For less than 180e i bought this:
http://www.ldbwebtronics.com/newfusige0vc.html
and had to make pretty annoying accu setup in separate enclosure, because VC2002 is having 2x18V + 1x9v supply!
Had to arrange 12v+6v(18v) + 6v+12v(18v) and one separate 12v(via 7809).
Problem was in how to charge those gell cells with one 12v automatic charger.
And also not to take them out from enclosure each time when need to be recharged!?
So i figured it out and decided to have 4x "12v" to be charged one by one!
That's why i use those two 6v, so i could (with rotary switch 1x12) "make" one 12v from two 6v , when is about to be charged!
Sheeeesh! So annoying it was to wire up whole arrangement!
So, than i achieved battery operated VC2002. :lol:
At it's output 2 probes were added, ground probes (antennas).
So that presents complete "TX". Adjustable amplitude, freq, shape and cycle rate!
"RX" part is mentioned RT! :rotfl
What can i do?
It's not mine to "think" - but to work! So i did it!
Will see soon if there is positive feedback! :lol:
...
P.S.
Ain't life beautiful!?
:rotfl
What?
You made a battery power VC2002?

Do you have any idea what this is worth in the MFD community? :shocked:
Your modified VC2002 is the only VC2002 that can be taken in the field for finding amazing treasures.

This VC2002 is more valuable than winning the Carl-NC LRL prize.
You can be rich!
Do you know you can sell this battery VC2002 to people in the UK who want to buy LRLs?
But be sure to include a free LRL that they can connect to it...
Check recent forum posts from people in the UK who want to buy LRLs to see who you should contact.

Best wishes,
J_P

[wam]

"what kind of signal exactly you are dealing with?
What are the features of such "signal"? "

Yes, I am LRL enthusiast, and with relaxation dedicate some of my life time to have a brake and read or watch something mysteries. With satisfaction analyze strange electronic circuits etc … It is a good brake and escape from professional electronics and since. So let it be, but for me it is not acceptable to misled naïve people and take advantage from their ignorance for financial benefits. Yet I can accept sellout of astrological formulas to predict the future events because it has been declared by since and society as kind of “art” and no one who paid fortune for such prediction will have hard fillings that it does not work. We should do the same with LRL and reserve for it in human reality its own class.
It is OK that LRL is surrounded by mystery and “secret technology” – if You pay for it, the significant value of this product is excitement delivered by the nature of this secrecy.
LRL happened to develop its own scientific terminology, I have seen similar in so call “fact finding” books abut Startrek or Star Wars. This is what LRL is, accept it, enjoy it but make it honest. It has been known that Jedi can not open the door using The Force but my son always enjoy me doing it every time when passing via automatic sliding door.
If You, LRL boys want to be respected and promote so call LRL reality You must be HONEST and do it with fun and do it friendly. In return, other people you will be giving contribution and assistance. Many imaginary facts from Startrek or Star Wars became scientific later on.
So to show you a little respect I will try some possible answers for this simple question.
It is fact that every mass produce gravity forces and since the earth is in motion it will manifest itself as gravity wave. I believe that gravity forces originated by berried coins or gold are not detectable yet by humans technology.
All conductive material is influencing electro magnetic fields and generates forces. Low frequency have nature to propagate over extremely long distance and it is very hard to detect it (submarines have technology to recognize and locate sources of this kind of spectrum). Yet I believe that human technology can not separate this signals over a small and week targets. But to bust some inspiration for LRLs I can say that pigeons can sense and locate origin of spectrum for very low frequency waves but with my understanding the location of this signal is giving unique spectrum due to the target being in motion. I think that even pigeon would have a problem to detect object under ground.
In addition every conductive object influence static electric fields, yet this influence of electric forces is so small that it is not available for practical devices.
LRL findings of treasure in big proportion operates via practice of digging. If no LRL then it will be no motivation for many people to go out and dig. If no digging then no finding.

[J_Player]

"what kind of signal exactly you are dealing with?
What are the features of such "signal"? "

Yes, I am LRL enthusiast, and with relaxation dedicate some of my life time to have a brake and read or watch something mysteries. With satisfaction analyze strange electronic circuits etc … It is a good brake and escape from professional electronics and since. So let it be, but for me it is not acceptable to misled naïve people and take advantage from their ignorance for financial benefits. Yet I can accept sellout of astrological formulas to predict the future events because it has been declared by since and society as kind of “art” and no one who paid fortune for such prediction will have hard fillings that it does not work. We should do the same with LRL and reserve for it in human reality its own class.
It is OK that LRL is surrounded by mystery and “secret technology” – if You pay for it, the significant value of this product is excitement delivered by the nature of this secrecy.
LRL happened to develop its own scientific terminology, I have seen similar in so call “fact finding” books abut Startrek or Star Wars. This is what LRL is, accept it, enjoy it but make it honest. It has been known that Jedi can not open the door using The Force but my son always enjoy me doing it every time when passing via automatic sliding door.
If You, LRL boys want to be respected and promote so call LRL reality You must be HONEST and do it with fun and do it friendly. In return, other people you will be giving contribution and assistance. Many imaginary facts from Startrek or Star Wars became scientific later on.
So to show you a little respect I will try some possible answers for this simple question.
It is fact that every mass produce gravity forces and since the earth is in motion it will manifest itself as gravity wave. I believe that gravity forces originated by berried coins or gold are not detectable yet by humans technology.
All conductive material is influencing electro magnetic fields and generates forces. Low frequency have nature to propagate over extremely long distance and it is very hard to detect it (submarines have technology to recognize and locate sources of this kind of spectrum). Yet I believe that human technology can not separate this signals over a small and week targets. But to bust some inspiration for LRLs I can say that pigeons can sense and locate origin of spectrum for very low frequency waves but with my understanding the location of this signal is giving unique spectrum due to the target being in motion. I think that even pigeon would have a problem to detect object under ground.
In addition every conductive object influence static electric fields, yet this influence of electric forces is so small that it is not available for practical devices.
LRL findings of treasure in big proportion operates via practice of digging. If no LRL then it will be no motivation for many people to go out and dig. If no digging then no finding.
Hi wam,
Of course all electronic engineers like to take time to think of fantasy things like star wars to escape from the rigors of providing workable answers to electronic problems.
But in this topic, Ivconic is asking for people to tell him what is the nature if this signal which dowsers and LRL users tell him they are detecting.
If you scroll up to the top you will see this topic is asking:

when you deal with so called Long Range Locating, dowsing or whatever -
what kind of signal exactly you are dealing with?
What are the features of such "signal"?

You can see Ivconic is asking for people to provide answers to tell what is the LRL signal.
If you search the forum, you will find that some LRL enthusiasts have already given their answers to tell us exactly what is this signal line:

"Resonance to the elements subatomic levels when a carrier signal line is shot and returned"

"Gold is the most powerful 'self defensive' metal when it comes to avoid any harm to its structure, such as rust, oxidation, etc. Its DNA produces a substance which coats the metal to fight against those 'threats'."

"You think of voltage as a potential. It's not only a potential, but also a flow as electromotive force".

"the human body has it's own very sensitive detection system known as the human energy field or what some call the aura"

"intensity of ionic fields and best times for it to manifest is not a limitation of the detector itself"

"I've heard the signal line will sort of burn into the ground and not dissapate for days if too much power is used. Don't know this for a fact, but I have experienced a residual effect on some days."

"Here again you should read "Supersensonics" to get an idea of what you are even dealing with. Hills is absolutely the most knowledgable person on the subject. Even if you can't understand his concepts, read through it anyway. Some day the light will come on. Of course if you can'ty locate in the first place (negative attitude/skeptic) you probably will be totally lost. Again, remember the signal line acts as an antenna. "

""Physical Dowsing" detects the stronger emenating "fields" at the surface of the earth which are layered over weaker "fields", over weaker "fields" etc, etc."

Somehow, these explanations describe what is the LRL signal for people who have their mind open to accept them.

If you know some new answers to what is this signal, then this is where Ivconic wants to hear your new ideas.
Fantasy things like Star Wars is also a good idea for explaining dowsing and LRL signals if there is no other workable way you can think of to explain it.
The theories how LRL works that I posted above are only a few examples I found in this forum.
There are many other theories you can also find in this forum to explain the signal of LRLs.

Best wishes,
J_P

[wam]

Since we talk like civilize people I may offer other possibility.
My grandma was LRL of “weather change”. Her hands did change mechanically (with pain) due to moisture. Once in the play ground she told me that she can not seat and watch me from particular location because she does not fill good there. Later it was discovered that it was cracked water pipe under this place and it had more moisture then others. Some people will call it super powers others will think it can be detected with moisture sensor and electronics (and explain by doctor). If people sense something and they are honest then we should think “science”. If treasure is hidden under ground then it is possible and probable that moister distribution has been effected. So let enjoy magic of LRL but think “science”. Please, do not blame people for fillings unless it is not real and just to scum others for money. I have appeal for all LRL inventors – DO NOT KEEP SECRETS – even if some of your inventions are funny or strange – there is so many things out there to explore in reality. I like this forum because it is trying to be free of scum. If any one has some secrets and want to make money out of it … This forum appears to me to be for the one who want to exchange info and help each other with hobby – not a business .

[ivconic]

What?
You made a battery power VC2002?

Do you have any idea what this is worth in the MFD community? :shocked:
Your modified VC2002 is the only VC2002 that can be taken in the field for finding amazing treasures.

This VC2002 is more valuable than winning the Carl-NC LRL prize.
You can be rich!
Do you know you can sell this battery VC2002 to people in the UK who want to buy LRLs?
But be sure to include a free LRL that they can connect to it...
Check recent forum posts from people in the UK who want to buy LRLs to see who you should contact.

Best wishes,
J_P

Yeah!
Can you believe it!
Like Wam stated in post above; i will not take money, but if they want i will post hints about it.

:rotfl

[ivconic]

Wam welcome here! :)
That's the spirit and that's the talking!
The way you appeared here is most proper way and i don't see the reason why majority of other dowsers do not act the same?
What's wrong in talking?
I like your points, because it is obvious that you are having an open mind, which is the only way to future.
Yes, i can "feel" in my bones the weather too and sometimes underground water too.
Some mornings i wake up so broken, every little bone is in ache!
And it is already proved that there is huge water deposit under my house.
Also there are certain spots where i can not stay for longer time, because i feel very bad than.
I am not so old (45) yet i had wild past and now am suffering the consequences.
So... as you see; i can agree with you on many points.
I like your explanations about gravity etc... could make some sense, although can't tell nothing for sure.
It is not the field of my primary interests and therefore i should have to learn more on that subject, to be able to make some conclusions.
Anyway, i do respect you appearance here!
Cheers!

[Qiaozhi]

I like this forum because it is trying to be free of scum. If any one has some secrets and want to make money out of it … This forum appears to me to be for the one who want to exchange info and help each other with hobby – not a business .
That's the general idea.
Geotech Remote Sensing - the scum-free forum. :cheers:

[ivconic]

That's the general idea.
Geotech Remote Sensing - the scum-free forum. :cheers:

More important is to keep our minds scum-free, i think.
I guess than situation on forums like this one, will also set on it's place.
This topic is perfect "indicator" of real situation, how things are really going on.
We have here many members. Let's say we have here 50% pure skeptics, 30% pure believers and 20% of people who's are "half way there".
So i asked very important and elementary question.
I got only 3 responses from "other side";
Mike with his disturbed mind, gave me nothing but pure nonsense as answer,
Hung just added his "traditional" sarcasm over Mike's rubbish,
and finally
Wam appeared at the end and tried to give if not answer than for sure some interesting guidelines.
So, actually i got only ONE response here, actually.
If it was not Wam to appear; i would definitely "lock" my conclusions and put the END on this topic, but since he appeared i still can not do that.
I can only say that it is really indicative what this topic is showing.
Like JPlayer earlier concluded:
Fisherman tales are always better than living fish... to huge majority of "believers".
...
Therefore i am afraid that scumers with their scums will continue to exist and be given full attention by those 20%+30% here.
Horrible fact that there are so much people hooked on such lunatic bases as dowsing and LRL - yet their major "theorists" and proponents are still not able to give answer on most elementary question of all questions:
What is LRL "signal" and what are it's properties and features?
...
This story will go on.
But i think we will not get not even closer to final agreement UNTIL more people like Wam appears here on these forums.
I guess we will miss Esteban much more here than we could realize! :frown:

[ivconic]

What is LRL "signal" and what are it's properties and features?

...
Question remains the same.
Also LRL'sts "songs remains the same" too!:lol:

[J_Player]

What is LRL "signal" and what are it's properties and features?

...
Question remains the same.
Also LRL'sts "songs remains the same" too!:lol:Hi Ivconic,
I don;t know what is this signal from personal experience, but a respected doctor of LRL told me how it works...
"Resonance to the elements subatomic levels when a carrier signal line is shot and returned"

I think this might tell the answer.
You should be able to build an electronic carrier signal line shooter and catcher to find these signals if he is correct.

Best wishes,
J_P

[ivconic]

Hi Ivconic,
I don;t know what is this signal from personal experience, but a respected doctor of LRL told me how it works...
"Resonance to the elements subatomic levels when a carrier signal line is shot and returned"

I think this might tell the answer.
You should be able to build an electronic signal line shooter and catcher to find these signals if he is correct.

Best wishes,
J_P

That's complete nonsense, wouldn't you agree?
I would suggest him to read few articles on NMR.
Those people are mixing NMR frequencies of materials with non existing "LRL frequencies" most of the time! :lol:
Is it so hard to find NMR articles on internet and read them?
I bet those people never heard about Wikipedia?

[ivconic]

http://web.mit.edu/speclab/www/Facility/nmrfreq.html

[ivconic]

There is no such thing as "resonance of elements" as they pronounce it usually.

"...Nuclear magnetic resonance (NMR) is a physical phenomenon in which magnetic nuclei in a magnetic field absorb and re-emit electromagnetic radiation. This energy is at a specific resonance frequency which depends on the strength of the magnetic field and the magnetic properties of the isotope of the atoms..."

They should read this sentence dozen times to understand...seems?!

[ivconic]

A key feature of NMR is that the resonance frequency of a particular substance is directly proportional to the strength of the applied magnetic field.

Applied magnetic field...

I think this is toughest part which they can not understand!?

[J_Player]

That's complete nonsense, wouldn't you agree?
I would suggest him to read few articles on NMR.
Those people are mixing NMR frequencies of materials with non existing "LRL frequencies" most of the time! :lol:
Is it so hard to find NMR articles on internet and read them?
I bet those people never heard about Wikipedia?Well, of course I agree it is nonsense.
But the MFD people say I am stupid.
So I listen to see what they say is the signal instead of decide it does not exist.
Think about it... if you decide the LRL signal does not exist, then we can end all talk of LRL.
The game is over. Same as vacuum... nothing there at all.

But if we listen to important doctors of LRL, then we have something to talk about.
We can learn how gold DNA produces a substance to coat the surface to fight against oxidation.
Think of the possibilities.... no more weather coatings other than apply this substance to all outdoor metals.
We are exploring new frontiers of science here.
And if it does not work... well, still same fun as watching Star Wars movie.

Am I wrong?

Best wishes,
J_P

[ivconic]

http://230nsc1.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/nuclear/nmr.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_magnetic_resonance_spectroscopy

[satdaveuk]

I have few friends, dowsers.
I like to talk with them and try to persuade them to give up of such nonsense.
Also i am following their success rate. It is more than poor.
But, fact is that each one of those do have (and carry with) one conventional md, just in any case! :D
So if they miss to locate something by dowsing, there is always good old md to continue with.
None of those can explain more soberly what they are doing with dowsing.
They "feel" something, but what? Nobody can explain soberly.
And 99% of their targets are never discovered.
Various reasons for that: too deep, too unclear "signal"...etc..etc..
"Who's gonna dig such deep hole now?" - most favorite excuse!:lol:
"There are no conditions now, at the moment, but surely we will return back soon, with proper tools, and we will dig it out!" :lol:
It is fun to watch those people.
It is fun to talk with them.
Yet none of those can't explain what kind of "signal" they are "receiving" when dowsing.
Most recent case is one friend with Ranger Teller.
Pretty cool guy, educated well, smart... yet to much "believer", if you ask me.
He is locating dozen "strong signals" each time we go outdoor.
I tried so hard to pull out from him recognition that RT was a piece of crap and nothing else, yet i haven't success!
No matter i explained to him that nothing revolutionary and secret is going on in that funny calculator, nor in few nonsense wired components inside RT box - no success.
"There is some process that's going on, yet" - he says!
And at the same time he is unable to explain and elaborate!
Along with him , there are 4-5 friends more.
All those are constantly pushing me to "rethink and reconsider" all the "technique" and knowledge i have and to involve my self in making "something that will work more better"!
I tried, i made Zahori's for each one of those, although first i explained them what is Zahori.
I made dozen other nonsense devices and apparatuses.
Each one of those i made is "working" ... by them! :lol:
But "it is not complete accurate, must be that there is a way to do it a bit better.."!
I am not taking no money for granted nor based on frauds and lies.
Each time i get such demand, i do perform long patience talk, trying to persuade them to give up.
Also i do backup my efforts with all possible arguments that i have against dowsing.
Yet... no benefit from such my efforts...!?
So, they want something to achieve... only they don't know how! Neither than me!:lol:
They "feel" something... only they don't know what is it! Neither than me! :lol:
Rate of their success is more than devastating, yet they don't give up!
So.. how to be smart about this "human phenomena" !? :lol:

haha its a laugh isnt it
in the summer time i keep a fishing rod in the van because one of my permissions runs along a river so if I get bored of finding fishing tackel I can fish with the worms that ive dug while digging, If you think about it all goes well together and you get a better buzz when getting the catch due using everything found apart from the rod, and to be honest I could use the branch off the hanging trees then volla ;)
Mind you if im deep in meditation maybe I could try dowsing with it , proberly end up falling in the river:rotfl:rotfl:rotfl:rotfl:rotfl:rotfl:dance:da nce:dance

[ivconic]

I see my last post is deleted?!
What for?
What was so insulting in it to be deleted?
Who deleted it?
Carl or Qiaozhi?
I see; history is repeating here...:frown:
On other side, sentences like this:
"..For all you stupid skeptics (or liars).."
IS PERFECTLY FINE AND SUITS THIS FORUM RULES??

I was so stupid to come back here!
For what?
That's was big "Thanks" from admins to me! Indeed!
Good bye!

[WM6]

I was so stupid to come back here!
For what?
That's was big "Thanks" from admins to me! Indeed!
Good bye!



This is not reason for goodbye ivconic.

My graphic parody on LRL was deleted too. You don't believe but I am still in life.

We need to left admin to act according his feeling of correctness. Like or dislike. Otherwise all will become chaotic.

Move on. Nothing tragic happen. Show must go on.

[Dedevil]

Just for Ivconic the so called GURU:rotfl GURU Ha! :rotfl
In my country I look up divining and book say is ideomotor effect. I get taught to only believe what book tell me and not to think for myself, just like programmed old computer, and I end up being dumb, dumb, foolish. But one day I observe something and start to read up about it more. I read about earths gravity, and then understand that apple from tree falls to ground. But then I go fishing by stream and wife packs lunch with apple. I no like apple so throw in stream and apple no go straight down but flow with stream. Ha! is work of de devil I think. Because de book tell me so. I go tell priest that stream is possessed by devil and must be destroyed. Then man come in ambulance and take me to hospital to have anti devil pill. I finally get to go home from hospital and priest come to visit and tell me that de devil used to be gods right hand man but was banished from heaven for being misunderstood by dumb god and then he give me invite to devils birthday party. I go to party and people there have lots of books that I read. I read up on things like local gravity fields, charged particles, static, capacitors, charged surface areas, dielectrics in capacitors and path of least resistance. Then wife ask me to change light globe, I take globe out and see cobwebs so stick finger in to clean, then bang I get electric shock, and now understand that I can conduct and store electric charge. Then I read more and find out that pure H20 no conduct water, but water in stream have mineral in, and can conduct water. Then I think smart like new computer, I think I am like plate in capacitor and have a charge and stream is other plate and have have a different charge and we both act like big charged capacitor. When I use L rod or forked stick it point to PATH OF LEAST RESISTANCE towards other plate. Now i see the devil surrounds me.
In your own words Ivconic
Now you WILL know how we others are looking at you! :rotfl
Simply as that.
...
So, instead more polluting these forums with complete nonsenses - stop for a moment, put your finger on your brow and think hard!

You must admit that it looks very stupid and backward what you are doing here all the time!
Regards De devil

[Dedevil]

To the self proclaimed GURU iVCONIC:rotfl
GURU! :rotflIN your own words - Until you define exact signal features and parameters of what you will "receive" with LRL device - you will wander as goose in a fog and waste all your life time, energy and money.

Simply as that - end quote

yES, Yes of course we will my little retarded friend. All because the good book told you so. How about doing everyone on this forum a favor and start thinking for yourself. Maybe we are the one's that are guided and you are the totallly misguided goose in a fog and wasting all your life time, energy and money. All because someone, years ago, could not understand science and printed you a faulty guidance book, and now YOU are TOTALLY MISGUIDED, LOST IN SPACE!
Regards DeDevil

[ivconic]

Dedevil - S...U...C...K......M...Y......D...I...C...K...! :lol:

[Dedevil]

Dedevil - S...U...C...K......M...Y......D...I...C...K...! :lol:
Do you finally feal like coming out of the closet?, AND ANNOUNCE TO THE WORLD THAT YOUR ***? It's o.k. we are all friends here on this forum. *** or not, Bi****** or not, Straight or not, we are all here to talk about LRL'S. And by the way, with your response my conclusion is that your a closet ***. So Dear Ivconic; Come out, come out who ever you are! Anounce it to the world! It still doesn't mean i'm going to go out on a date with you and s your d. Don't they have girl friends in your counrty. Or didn't mummy let you out to play. Oh POOR IVCONIC I feel sorry for you

[Aziz]

*LOL*

Gentlement,

sucking isn't allowed.
Only a kick in the arse of LRL rats should be enough.
:D
Aziz

[Max]

What's up ??? seems a calm discussion between friends... I see

[WM6]

*LOL*

Gentlement,

sucking isn't allowed.



New Carl's forum rule. Now it is allowed.

[Dedevil]

What's up ??? seems a calm discussion between friends... I see
No Problem Just waiting for a GURU? :rotfl:rotflfriend to come out of the closet and join the party.

[WM6]

No Problem Just waiting for a GURU? :rotfl:rotflfriend to come out of the closet and join the party.

Live ded, go back to one of your split personalities.

[Fred]

:rotfl

Good morning to all of you too!

I suggest a new forum section : The esoteric section, more extreme than the LRL one.

[Max]

No Problem Just waiting for a GURU? :rotfl:rotflfriend to come out of the closet and join the party.

why you need a GURU ? looking for nirvana ? :rolleyes:

[Max]

:rotfl

Good morning to all of you too!

I suggest a new forum section : The esoteric section, more extreme than the LRL one.

yes, I think too the same, seems here there's already a lot of black magic and magicians... at least looking at videos of LRL where them seem working
:lol: