H3Tec discussion

[Jim]

I grabbed this off the H3 forum. Some funny reading:


Hi everyone,

You may know the issues surrounding Treasure net forum. There are a few guys out there and one especially that works for Whites metal detectors. Whites is a great company with fantastic gear. However Carl thinks he's smarter than everyone in the world and has decided to take matters with H3 into his hands and has told the world that we do not manufacture a product stating "It has no board in it", "it can't work". We have invited Carl to Utah to see our production and assembly shop as well as test drive our products. He refuses stating that he's offering us a 25K challenge. Well it's a contract that can't be met, so he get's 5k for his efforts. H3 has sent formal paperwork to Treasure net forum to start our legal processes on these guys. I'm the first to say, I don't like Court, reasonable folks can resolve issues prior to turning things over to Judges. So you have noticed that you can't get to Treasure net forum. They did the right thing and turned off the forum. I'm sure as soon as they get their site scrubbed they will be back up. For all the users of the Treasure net forum, we are sorry to take these steps but our Brand, our Name, and our products are world class. We simply won't put up with folks from Whites electronics, or any other company liable, slander, and broadcast false attacks. This is very serious and there has been some industrial espionage involved. We really must be making an impression on some folks. Shallow Water Recovery is also very shallow, they sent Phil an email on our demo at the UGPC in SLC where we successfully demonstrated the H3 to everyone there. 95 people asked questions and we answered them not holding one thing from them. It may take a while to get all this behind us, but we will win. What he have works, and works all the time.

[hung]

I grabbed this off the H3 forum. Some funny reading:


Hi everyone,

You may know the issues surrounding Treasure net forum. There are a few guys out there and one especially that works for Whites metal detectors. Whites is a great company with fantastic gear. However Carl thinks he's smarter than everyone in the world and has decided to take matters with H3 into his hands and has told the world that we do not manufacture a product stating "It has no board in it", "it can't work". We have invited Carl to Utah to see our production and assembly shop as well as test drive our products. He refuses stating that he's offering us a 25K challenge. Well it's a contract that can't be met, so he get's 5k for his efforts. H3 has sent formal paperwork to Treasure net forum to start our legal processes on these guys. I'm the first to say, I don't like Court, reasonable folks can resolve issues prior to turning things over to Judges. So you have noticed that you can't get to Treasure net forum. They did the right thing and turned off the forum. I'm sure as soon as they get their site scrubbed they will be back up. For all the users of the Treasure net forum, we are sorry to take these steps but our Brand, our Name, and our products are world class. We simply won't put up with folks from Whites electronics, or any other company liable, slander, and broadcast false attacks. This is very serious and there has been some industrial espionage involved. We really must be making an impression on some folks. Shallow Water Recovery is also very shallow, they sent Phil an email on our demo at the UGPC in SLC where we successfully demonstrated the H3 to everyone there. 95 people asked questions and we answered them not holding one thing from them. It may take a while to get all this behind us, but we will win. What he have works, and works all the time.

I might be wrong, but it appears that you and your 'ghost buster' buddy above will learn a big lesson soon.

Let's just keep watching.

[WM6]

I might be wrong, but it appears that you and your 'ghost buster' buddy above will learn a big lesson soon.

Let's just keep watching.

A big lesson how crime can avoid real chalenge and instead of this try to threaten by legal proceedings.

[Qiaozhi]

I might be wrong, but it appears that you and your 'ghost buster' buddy above will learn a big lesson soon.

Let's just keep watching.
There is no doubt that you are wrong, so there's no change there then.
I was wondering when you would appear to make a comment.

You really cannot keep defending this sort of rubbish. According to their website: "H3 Tec is in the army and on the ground protecting our troops in the Middle East.".
This is a really scary thought. :eek:

They then go on to say: "H3 is proud to have a hand in protecting our service men and women from Improvised Explosive Devices.".
Blimey! That is a real oxymoron. A useless dowsing gadget being used to detect IEDs. Eek! I really hope they just threw it in the back of the shed and forgot about it.

But they then continue: "H3 Tec salutes our brave young men and women for their courage and sacrifices. May God bless their families and keep everyone safe.".
Well ... you're not wrong there. Anyone using this device to detect IEDs is certainly heading for a big sacrifice. But calling on your favorite deity to protect them is just not going to work.

I salute Carl for his efforts to put a stop to this nonsense before someone gets hurt.

Hung - if you still believe that this crap works, then perhaps you should pop over to the Middle East and do a bit of IED detecting on behalf of the U.S. Army. I would only pay the on-way price, as you won't be needing the return ticket.

[Mike(Mont)]

Just ask yourself Who is responsible for shutting down tnet forum? If you blame H3TEC you are wrong.

[hung]

There is no doubt that you are wrong, so there's no change there then.
I was wondering when you would appear to make a comment.

You really cannot keep defending this sort of rubbish. According to their website: "H3 Tec is in the army and on the ground protecting our troops in the Middle East.".
This is a really scary thought. :eek:

They then go on to say: "H3 is proud to have a hand in protecting our service men and women from Improvised Explosive Devices.".
Blimey! That is a real oxymoron. A useless dowsing gadget being used to detect IEDs. Eek! I really hope they just threw it in the back of the shed and forgot about it.

But they then continue: "H3 Tec salutes our brave young men and women for their courage and sacrifices. May God bless their families and keep everyone safe.".
Well ... you're not wrong there. Anyone using this device to detect IEDs is certainly heading for a big sacrifice. But calling on your favorite deity to protect them is just not going to work.

I salute Carl for his efforts to put a stop to this nonsense before someone gets hurt.

Hung - if you still believe that this crap works, then perhaps you should pop over to the Middle East and do a bit of IED detecting on behalf of the U.S. Army. I would only pay the on-way price, as you won't be needing the return ticket.

All I know is that you are one of the 'pretend to be scientists' here who completely lack the scientific understanding to explain and comprehend the physical events related to the concept of long range substance location and keeps bashing manufacturers and users.

Someday there would be a consequence.
We'll see.

[WM6]

Someday there would be a consequence.



Not someday, consequences have been yet: unnecessary human casualties from the use of devices such as H3Tec in field of security.

[Qiaozhi]

All I know is that you are one of the 'pretend to be scientists' here who completely lack the scientific understanding to explain and comprehend the physical events related to the concept of long range substance location and keeps bashing manufacturers and users.

Someday there would be a consequence.
We'll see.
OK - you stay with the long-range substances and I'll stick with real science.

By the way, I know you are persona non grata with your Brazilian "colleagues". One of them emailed me to say that you are crazy and reckless, and they use the term "big mouth" or "loose language".

Not my words ... I'm just telling you the reality of the situation.
And don't ask who said it, as it will remain a secret. :notalk:

[Qiaozhi]

Just ask yourself Who is responsible for shutting down tnet forum? If you blame H3TEC you are wrong.
I think you are correct. When you try to access the forum it says "We're Sorry. The forum is offline due to technical difficulties. We are working on the problem. Thank you for your patience."

Crikey! ... I just agreed with you. :shocked:

[J_Player]

Hi hung,
I saw your interesting and informative message to Qiaozhi:All I know is that you are one of the 'pretend to be scientists' here who completely lack the scientific understanding to explain and comprehend the physical events related to the concept of long range substance location and keeps bashing manufacturers and users.

Someday there would be a consequence.
We'll see.
Actually, I don't think Qiaozhi ever pretended to be a scientist. I think he is among many other technically trained and accomplished people who prefer to see scientific methods used to determine what works or does not. I suppose opening an electronic device to see what's inside it, or trying to follow the instructions to see if the device does what it is claimed to do are not considered scientific, but then nobody who is looking at the H3Tec locators claims to be a scientist except some of the people who the factory reps claim are scientists that contributed to the development of the H3Tec.

Are the H3Tec factory scientists pretend scientists?
Who knows? H3Tec did not say who these scientists are.
But they did say the H3Tec could fail to find the silver bar in Carl's pocket as he walked in front of it because the locator may have been tuned to a different silver isotope than the one found in Carl's silver bar.

I am not a scientist either, but I know the smell of BS, and I know it is not possible for a silver bar to be deficient in either of the two stable silver isotopes that you could tune an isotope detector to identify (if this machine was really capable of detecting an isotope of silver). This leads me to think there is no scientist associated with the H3Tec, as scientists know the isotope signature of natural silver and manufactured silver bars, and they would not say anything that stupid. Could H3Tec be lying to us?

There are many manufacturers and promoters of fake LRLs who would say stupid things such as that to us. I have read all manner of stupid pseudoscience published by LRL manufacturers and promoters, which makes me think the pretend scientists are mostly found among the supporters of LRLs. For example, I even heard one "pretend to be scientist" post in this forum that gold has DNA which produces a substance that coats the metal to help fight against oxidation. :shocked:

Did that post come from Qiaozhi? I don't think so. :nono:

Best wishes
J_P

[hung]

OK - you stay with the long-range substances and I'll stick with real science.

By the way, I know you are persona non grata with your Brazilian "colleagues". One of them emailed me to say that you are crazy and reckless, and they use the term "big mouth" or "loose language".

Not my words ... I'm just telling you the reality of the situation.
And don't ask who said it, as it will remain a secret. :notalk:

No kidding!
I happened to also have a UK member emailing me once and telling even worse things about you!
What an interesting coincidence! I never thought someone from geoskepthic forums would do such a 'blasfemy' to you.
Who do you think is telling the truth? Or they are both right?:lol:

On and on, you need to get rid of Gibon and Goldenskull first...
This will be a tough task. Currently they are spanking you bad.

Oh my... this forum gets more hilarious each day. Sorry Ozzy, but something tells me that the show started to take on here soon after your promotion as 'moderator.:lol:
Bye my friend. Gotta go. Coffe break is over.

[Carl-NC]

You may know the issues surrounding Treasure net forum. There are a few guys out there and one especially that works for Whites metal detectors. Whites is a great company with fantastic gear. However Carl thinks he's smarter than everyone in the world and has decided to take matters with H3 into his hands and has told the world that we do not manufacture a product stating "It has no board in it", "it can't work". We have invited Carl to Utah to see our production and assembly shop as well as test drive our products. He refuses stating that he's offering us a 25K challenge. Well it's a contract that can't be met, so he get's 5k for his efforts. H3 has sent formal paperwork to Treasure net forum to start our legal processes on these guys. I'm the first to say, I don't like Court, reasonable folks can resolve issues prior to turning things over to Judges. So you have noticed that you can't get to Treasure net forum. They did the right thing and turned off the forum. I'm sure as soon as they get their site scrubbed they will be back up. For all the users of the Treasure net forum, we are sorry to take these steps but our Brand, our Name, and our products are world class. We simply won't put up with folks from Whites electronics, or any other company liable, slander, and broadcast false attacks. This is very serious and there has been some industrial espionage involved. We really must be making an impression on some folks. Shallow Water Recovery is also very shallow, they sent Phil an email on our demo at the UGPC in SLC where we successfully demonstrated the H3 to everyone there. 95 people asked questions and we answered them not holding one thing from them. It may take a while to get all this behind us, but we will win. What he have works, and works all the time.

Yeah, I saw this... pretty funny, trying to take credit for TNet's shutdown. It's just a hacker, has nothing to do with H3Tec. Chuck's desperately trying to appear aggressive to his flock. Lot's of foot-stomping and finger-wagging and vague talk of legal sumpin-er-udder.

[Qiaozhi]

No kidding!
I happened to also have a UK member emailing me once and telling even worse things about you!
I'm a little disappointed you didn't make more of an effort with your reply. :frown:

I would think that H3Tec should be more than happy to submit their device to Sandia Labs for testing, assuming that it actually works. Can you imagine the worldwide acclaim that would result from a successful test? Not to mention the $25,000 from Carl and $1M from James Randi.

Of course, if the device is really a fraud, then you would expect the sort of threatening behavior we are seeing now.

[Art3811]

Are you still having fun?....Looks to me that H3Tec has called you out….The thousands of LRL and MFD owners/operators say..it’s about time….Art

[Daniel A.]

What's the deal with them using a logo that looks like Whites.

I really don't think an intelligent person would take credit hacking a web site.

Dan

[hung]

Visiting H3Tec's forum today, I stumbled upon a post from somebody that disclose a portion of the factual data that is hidden behind the bait.

'
"...Not to mention a lot of industry types who are scared to death of watching their product become obsolete.

I don't know how many of you have done this, but I have ingots of pure silver and silver with alloys, and I've tested my H3 to see how it reacts when set to the different isotope numbers. 107 ignored the ingots and locked on the coins, and 109 ignored the coins and locked on to the ingots.

One thing I can agree with about the guy who said this couldn't be possible: he's no scientist."


Bolds by me.

For the time being, let's leave Carl talking, it's fun.

Eventually we'll reach the epilogue.

[Jim]

As discussed on several other treasure hunting forums, TreasureNet had some hardware failure and the server is down.

In an email from Marc Austin (owner) "First I want to apologize for the downtime. I am doing everything I can to bring the forum back up to full speed. (I never thought we'd be down this long, or I would have written sooner!) I also want to assure you that no messages or images have been lost. This was strictly a hardware - not a software failure. Unfortunately, we need a pretty specific piece of hardware (a RAID card) - and because of the Thanksgiving holiday, we may not get the card until Monday, the 28th."

Jim

[Art3811]

]Hi Jim,

Just a note, maybe for the wise. We have been following you and your talk about our company. It is less than informed, and more than unchallengeable. I’m sorry you have come out to purposely do damage to our company without even accepting an invitation to use the H3, come to our manufacturing facilities and test drive the H3. You have pushed this issue past the point of reason or reconsideration.

Sounds reasonable to me Jim….Unless you are afraid to learn the truth….Art

[WM6]

Sounds reasonable to me Jim….Unless you are afraid to learn the truth….Art



So, independend scientific proven double blind test are not reasonable to you? Who are afraid to learn the truth?

Nice greetings to Hung.

[Jim]

Sounds reasonable to me Jim….Unless you are afraid to learn the truth….Art


Ah yes....you believe a pocket calculator can transmit a special treasure finding beam. I am sure even a Buffalo fart sounds reasonable to you :lol:

[Art3811]

So, independend scientific proven double blind test are not reasonable to you?
Carl can not do an impendent scientific double blind test… He is a bias person.
Let's begin by explaining "double blind":
In a Double Blind experiment neither the individuals nor the researchers know who belongs to the control group(placebo group)and who belongs to the experimental group.
The researchers and the individuals only get to know who is in what group only after ALL the data has been recorded.
This eliminates bias (whether intentional or not) from the researchers and the individuals and it eliminates any "Placebo-effect" bias”
Carl is not qualified because of his own Bias….
How do you know that this Company has not done a Double Blind Test on their products? I have preformed many double blind studies of my own tools….I am bias and I know that but the tests confirm to me that they do perform. After all…The owner/ user makes the decisions as to how well the tool works…Art

[Art3811]

Ah yes....you believe a pocket calculator can transmit a special treasure finding beam. I am sure even a Buffalo fart sounds reasonable to you
I know that for a fact “Jim”. A pocket calculator will find gold at a distance of ¼ mile buried at one foot deep. .Since your the expert on everything…Please tell us if it sounds like a Double Blind Test?

[Theseus]

Carl is not qualified because of his own Bias…. How do you know that this Company has not done a Double Blind Test on their products?

That's funny, Art. First you say Carl is not qualified to conduct a DB test because of bias; then you say; "How do you know that company has not done a DB test on their products?

I guess if they have done a DB test on their products, it would of course be disqualified because of their bias.

Guess you shot yourself in the foot on that one, dipstick. :lol: Probably it would be better if you didn't try to help H3Tec, they have enough problems right now as it is; they don't need you making things even worse.

I have preformed many double blind studies of my own tools….

What a laugh! You wouldn't know a true DB test from apple butter. :lol: If that isn't obvious, just look at the videos you've posted on YT.

Tnet is supposed to have their new hardware installed, maybe by Friday or Saturday, so you can return soon to the funny farm over there. :D

[Art3811]

---Quote (Originally by Art3811)---
Carl is not qualified because of his own Bias…. How do you know that this Company has not done a Double Blind Test on their products?
---End Quote---
That's funny, Art. First you say Carl is not qualified to conduct a DB test because of bias; then you say; "How do you know that company has not done a DB test on their products?
Double Talk Experts…You people have no answers…No I have never used one of these devices….I do not know how well it works. None of you know how well it works….Yes…I will return to T-Net soon. Tell Carl…I am still waiting on the $25,000 he owes me….Art

[Carl-NC]

Carl can not do an impendent scientific double blind test… He is a bias person.

Maybe you missed the part where I said:

I can arrange such a test with Sandia National Labs, which has extensive experience in testing these kinds of devices.

Tell Carl…I am still waiting on the $25,000 he owes me….

Like H3Tec, you've refused my offers to put your claims to a proper test. The offer is still open! But I'm guessing you will continue to refuse. Cain't do it. Just like H3Tec.

- Carl

[hung]

As I said, let Carl talks...

His idiotic 'challenge' or whatever has been discussed long ago, but...
But I think he may have a growing autism problem, as lots of LRL users already told him that and everyone knows there are clauses in his 'challenge', that simply can't be met.

This nonsense is a bad replica of his idol's, Randi, a liar, charlatan and other things altogether which I don't even remember or care to remember that he always states of himself.

Any serious contender knows both are hoaxes created for self promotion and help to deviate annoying issues. In Randi's case according to newspapers, problems with pedophily.
In Carl's, interests and worries of the group he represents at the growing LRL dissemination in contrast with the obsolete technology of ordinary metal detectors.

Even that his test was fair, it's completely irrelevant.

He seems to have a problem in comprehending or accepting that. He keeps refering to it as some religious preachers in Public Squares.
The serious THers and LRL users own the LRL as a tool to find treasure and generally they avoid publicity.

If Carl or SWR were really serious about knowing the technology of H3TEC, they would have traveled there and would have personally tested one unit. They were both invited and both declined. This alone shows how serious they are. Actually they have no intention whatsoever to know the truth.
Case closed in this matter for me.

Keep on talking Carl.
Actually with the current status of things underway, you do need to talk.

[WM6]

Even that his test was fair, it's completely irrelevant.




Irrelevant for you and crime producers. But not irrelevant for buyers, public and legal authorities.

[Qiaozhi]

:razz:As I said, let Carl talks...

His idiotic 'challenge' ... blah, blah, blah ...
Keep on talking Carl.
Actually with the current status of things underway, you do need to talk.
As Theseus stated previously in response to Art, and this certainly applies to you:
Probably it would be better if you didn't try to help H3Tec, they have enough problems right now as it is; they don't need you making things even worse.

Hopefully the TreasureNet forums will restored in the near future, and the LRL members of the funny farm can all go back to their usual place of residence.

[Jim]

I find it highly amusing how the LRL proponents whine and complain about how Carl and SWR (that's me) refuse to travel to Utah for a "demonstration" of the H3 device.

However....when Carl and SWR request a professionally administered double-blind test...for which they WILL travel for....it is constantly refused.

NO "hung".....I will not be traveling to Utah to watch somebody utilize the H3 dowsing device. I have already watched H3 giving a dowsing demonstration on their promotional video.

Yes "Art"...I know the truth. I know the requirements to manipulate atoms/molecules. Waving or pointing the hand held H3 Tricorder does not meet those requirements. Same applies for your pocket calculator.

[hung]

No whining at all.
Not only you refused this invitation for a demonstration. You also refused others from LRL users.
I just hope the TNET site gets back soon with all your original posts intact, so people in this forum get to know you better and the way you are treated there by LRL and even non LRL promponents.

By the way, how this ended? If ever ended...
http://www.voy.com/92635/632.html

[Jim]

No whining at all.
Not only you refused this invitation for a demonstration. You also refused others from LRL users.
I just hope the TNET site gets back soon with all your original posts intact, so people in this forum get to know you better and the way you are treated there by LRL and even non LRL promponents.

So....not only did I refuse a dowsing demonstration from H3...I refused other dowsing demonstrations? Is that what you trying to say? Whew...redundant blathering

In regards to the Voy message board...I pissed off some Filipinos when their Yamash.ita treasure scam was exposed. It happens. Not a problem.

[Art3811]

Like H3Tec, you've refused my offers to put your claims to a proper test. The offer is still open! But I'm guessing you will continue to refuse. Cain't do it. Just like H3Tec.


Re: When Science shouts to the deaf (http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,327684.msg2376634.html#msg2376634)
Reply To This Topic #40 Posted Yesterday at 08:40:40 PM
Quote (http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php?action=post;quote=2376634;topic=327684.0 ;num_replies=42;sesc=01ea10664fcf173f0906005cc8619 e19)

Quote from: aarthrj3811 on Yesterday at 09:34:07 AM (http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,327684.msg2375477.html#msg2375477)
Quote
You claim that when you step on a silver coin, your rods will cross every time.
Yes I have said that I can do it every time. So tell the membership why anyone should show you anything.

I don't think you can.

$25,000.

Gee Carl….Many thousands of T-Net members read your challenge to me. I posted the movie of me stepping on a silver dollar and the Dowsing Rods closed every time. I post this because I can. We all know you spent the $25,000 to move. But that does not stop you from conning your followers. There sure are a lot of independent thinkers on this forum. They read your junk and post it on other forums just like it is their own thoughts…Good Job Guys..Art

[Art3811]

If Carl or SWR were really serious about knowing the technology of H3TEC, they would have traveled there and would have personally tested one unit. They were both invited and both declined. This alone shows how serious they are. Actually they have no intention whatsoever to know the truth.
Case closed in this matter for me.
You are correct hung….They do not want to know. For over 12 years now I have heard the same people challenge manufactures’ and owners of Dowsing Rods and LRL’s. No one will except the challenges……The solution is simple. Take Randi’s Million Dollars and Carl’s $25,000 and have a lab do the testing. They will not do that. I wonder why?.,..Art

[J_Player]

:razz:
As Theseus stated previously in response to Art, and this certainly applies to you:
Probably it would be better if you didn't try to help H3Tec, they have enough problems right now as it is; they don't need you making things even worse.

Hopefully the TreasureNet forums will restored in the near future, and the LRL members of the funny farm can all go back to their usual place of residence.This is what goes on at TresureNet? Funny Farm sounds like a good description of the Tnet refugees.
Take note Tnet refugees -- There is a rule for this forum you don't have at Tnet: "Be factual. If you make an extraordinary claim, be prepared to get challenged".

So are any of the Tnet dowsers and users of LRLs willing to demonstrate their ability to find an object that a skeptic hides?

Best wishes,
J_P

[Carl-NC]

...everyone knows there are clauses in his 'challenge', that simply can't be met.

Name one.

[Carl-NC]

Gee Carl….Many thousands of T-Net members read your challenge to me. I posted the movie of me stepping on a silver dollar and the Dowsing Rods closed every time.

It wasn't a DB test, and I wasn't there. Here is a summary of the proposed test. You told me in the past it was acceptable:

Take 10 small pieces of plywood, say 4"x4", numbered 1-10. I'll attach a silver dollar under one of them, chosen randomly. You step on each piece of plywood and determine which one has the silver dollar. Repeat several times. I'll pay you $25,000 if you are successful. I expect a complete rejection, along with alibis, because you cain't do it. And I'm sure Hung will say this is an impossible test.

[J_Player]

It wasn't a DB test, and I wasn't there. Here is a summary of the proposed test. You told me in the past it was acceptable:

Take 10 small pieces of plywood, say 4"x4", numbered 1-10. I'll attach a silver dollar under one of them, chosen randomly. You step on each piece of plywood and determine which one has the silver dollar. Repeat several times. I'll pay you $25,000 if you are successful. I expect a complete rejection, along with alibis, because you cain't do it. And I'm sure Hung will say this is an impossible test.Impossible test?
I can pass that test with my cheapest metal detector easily (my metal detectors cannot identify isotopes, but they can all pass Carl's test).
I can get 10 perfect results out of 10 tries. Are dowsing and LRLs unable to pass the same test? :rolleyes:

Best wishes,
J_P

[Art3811]

(http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,327684.msg2375477.html/lmsg2375477)Quote from: aarthrj3811 on Yesterday at 09:34:07 AM (http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,327684.msg2375477.html/lmsg2375477)
Quote
You claim that when you step on a silver coin, your rods will cross every time.
Yes I have said that I can do it every time. So tell the membership why anyone should show you anything.

I don't think you can.

(http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,327684.msg2375477.html/lmsg2375477)$25,000.
Simple English Carl...I stepped on a coin and the rods crossed...That is just what you said I counld said would not happen...Art

[Qiaozhi]

Carl can not do an impendent scientific double blind test… He is a bias person.
Assuming that you actually meant to say "independent scientific double-blind test", I have to disagree with you. The whole purpose of a double-blind test is to remove any bias by the testers.
If you did mean to say impendent, then I've no idea what you're talking about. :rolleyes:

Let's begin by explaining "double blind":
In a Double Blind experiment neither the individuals nor the researchers know who belongs to the control group(placebo group)and who belongs to the experimental group.
The researchers and the individuals only get to know who is in what group only after ALL the data has been recorded.
This eliminates bias (whether intentional or not) from the researchers and the individuals and it eliminates any "Placebo-effect" bias”
You have described a type of double-blind test, but at least you have grasped the general principle, which is to remove any unconscious or conscious bias by the testers. :)

Carl is not qualified because of his own Bias….[/color]
Oh dear! ... You do not appear to have understand the DB principles after all. My mistake. :frown:

How do you know that this Company has not done a Double Blind Test on their products? I have preformed many double blind studies of my own tools….I am bias and I know that but the tests confirm to me that they do perform. After all…The owner/ user makes the decisions as to how well the tool works…Art
If (as you have stated) you have indeed preformed (sic) double-blind testing on your own products, then you would not be making that statement. Clearly you have either done nothing of the sort, or you have not followed the correct procedures. :razz:

I know that for a fact “Jim”. A pocket calculator will find gold at a distance of ¼ mile buried at one foot deep. .Since your the expert on everything…Please tell us if it sounds like a Double Blind Test?
Firstly, it certainly does not qualify as a Double Blind test.
Secondly, you must be severely deluded, if you believe a cheap calculator glued on top of a plastic box stuffed with do-nothing electronics can find gold 1/4 of a mile away. Such an arrangement could not detect gold even if it was touching the antenna. :???:

Double Talk Experts…You people have no answers…No I have never used one of these devices….I do not know how well it works. None of you know how well it works….Yes…I will return to T-Net soon. Tell Carl…I am still waiting on the $25,000 he owes me….Art
You're starting to sound like Dell. :lol: "I have never", "I do not know", etc.
As for demanding the $25,000 prize money ... hahahahah! You have more chance of finding gold 1/4 of a mile away with a calculator. Oh sorry, you've already tried that, and it didn't work. You need to go back and study the protocol for a double-blind test, and this time actually read the words and try to understand what they mean. If you still do not understand, then try phoning a friend.

$25,000.
Simple English Carl...I stepped on a coin and the rods crossed...That is just what you said I counld said would not happen...Art

Enough said. Your last post (above) sums it up nicely. :lol: :lol: :lol:

[WM6]

$25,000.
Simple English Carl...I stepped on a coin and the rods crossed...That is just what you said I counld said would not happen...Art



In such way as you done your "scientific test" I even do not need rods to step right on a coin and say "voila!".

In such way I can demonstrate "dowsing truth" everytime, no matter of humidity, ambiental noice, continental or moon position, or whatever others disturbing.

Therefore, Carl's $25,000 belong more to me than to you.

So, stop to beg for money, rather it earns by carrying out the DB test under given proposition.

[hung]

Art,
Remember, there's no DJ, JudyH or Eddie here for a high level discussion.
So don't ever expect anything above average regarding these matters in this forum.
Don't worry. It's only temporary and soon TNET will be back again.

[Jim]

The H3Tec Challenge thread has been seriously hosed.

Sorry Carl :frown:

[J_Player]

Assuming that you actually meant to say "independent scientific double-blind test", I have to disagree with you. The whole purpose of a double-blind test is to remove any bias by the testers.
If you did mean to say impendent, then I've no idea what you're talking about. :rolleyes:Is Art one of the tech writers fro H3Tec?

Best wishes,
J_P

[J_Player]

The H3Tec Challenge thread has been seriously hosed.

Sorry Carl :frown:Yup. some hose-heads from Tnet thought they could try their tricks at Geotech. We hear all manner of whining about pretend scientists, but when comes to facing a simple challenge, they crawl back under their rocks.

If their dowsing rods and LRLs really work, then why can't a single one of them find an object that a skeptic hides? We hear tales of how they find objects they hide or place in plain sight, but they are not willing to even try to find an object that a skeptic hides. Could it be their claims cannot stand up to peer review?

Maybe this is why they live mostly at Tnet... there is no rule to be prepared to get challenged if you make an extraordinary claim at Tnet.
Tnet is a more suitable place to hose down any real verifiable facts without interference from logic, testing or science.
Hopefully the Tnet homeland will be open again soon. Then we won't need to clog up the H3Tec thread with whining from LRL idiots who cannot perform in public.

Best wishes,
J_P

[Qiaozhi]

Don't worry. It's only temporary and soon TNET will be back again.
I'm glad to hear it. :D

There is a note on TreasureNet regarding the current status of the forums ->
http://www.treasurenet.com/charter/index.php?topic=2.0

The Funny Farm boys can soon go home to roost. :cheers:

[hung]

Art is the one who kindly gave tips to some unfortunate member here who claimed to have lost all his nervous system and thus he believes ha can't use a Rangertell. As a result from his well known character, he strikes again with irony against someone who cared to help him.

No wonder he is one of the trademarks of Geoskepthic forums.

[hung]

In fact, Art gave many lessons also to Carl about dowsing. In public, Carl denies it, but here we can see how well he learned those lessons.
Amazing how he has everything right in his explanations in the video. Law of charges, atraction , induced polarization.
Maybe when he goes to forums to post his nonsense about the science involved, or better, does not post anything regarding the real science behind it, would it be a deliberate act to confuse his fellow skepthic peers?

Humm... This remains a mistery...
Check...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UMab3sOu3c

What do you guys think?

[WM6]

What do you guys think?



Funny thumb manipulation tricks to impress dummies.

[Art3811]

Be factual. If you make an extraordinary claim, be prepared to get challenged".
So what have I said that was not factual?

So are any of the Tnet dowsers and users of LRLs willing to demonstrate their ability to find an object that a skeptic hides?
Happens all the time…Art

[Art3811]

If anyone here wants to try a Blind test with their equipment this is how I do mine
This is my version of a Blind test. I use halves of 6 Plastic Easter eggs and a coin. I give my wife the coin and she goes out the back door and I stay inside while she places the coin under one of the egg halves. She then goes around the house and knocks on the front door. I go out, not having any contact with her. I start Locating thinking of anything else except for the Rods. Sometimes it is what I'm going to do tomorrow or a movie I saw the night before. I locate the coin, go in the house and give it to the wife and start over again. I make 10 to 15 passes and then take a break. My results are all ways the same. I find the coin every time.

When I do the test and I think about finding the coin my results are different. The best was 60% finds but the usual is between 30% and 50% finds. I have done this test more than 20 times.

Why do I do these test? To see if I am still doing it right. I refuse to let the Ideomotor Effects control my rods UNLESS I want it to. When I test in my backyard I know that some mystery signal from a SUV will not block my signals. ..Art

[Theseus]

You poor deluded individual. :frown:

[Jim]

Thank God I finally found the IGNORE feature!

No more Art! :drool:

[J_Player]

Be factual. If you make an extraordinary claim, be prepared to get challenged".

Originally posted by Art3811
So what have I said that was not factual?

Originally posted by J_Player
So are any of the Tnet dowsers and users of LRLs willing to demonstrate their ability to find an object that a skeptic hides?

Originally posted by Art3811
Happens all the time…ArtIs what you said factual? I don't have a clue. But we can all find out with a simple test. You can try Carl's test with a silver dollar hidden under one of ten pieces of plywood, or try my simpler test where you show how well you can locate an object I hide. After seeing how well you perform when others from outside your home are watching, we will have a clear idea of how factual the things you have been telling us actually are. If your dowsing abilities are really working, why not arrange to have a skeptic hide an object for you to find. If you can't do it, it's ok. We will understand.

Best wishes,
J_P

[J_Player]

All of this Tnet diatribe and HungScience might mean something if a single one of the dowsers or LRL users would show their skills at finding an object a skeptic hides.
But seeing the reality of the strength of the LRL/dowsers convictions, their diatribe and HungScience will remain meaningless in the real world.
These whining fools are not capable of passing a simple test to show what locating skills they have or do not have.
And we continue to drag ourselves through the sludge of these whiners ... all because of a hardware problem on someone Else's server. :barf:

Best wishes,
J_P

[Qiaozhi]

Art,
Remember, there's no DJ, JudyH or Eddie here for a high level discussion.
So don't ever expect anything above average regarding these matters in this forum.
Don't worry. It's only temporary and soon TNET will be back again.
:lol: ... and it must be a really high level discussion, especially with this lot in the group.
ROTFL :lol:

[hung]

All of this Tnet diatribe and HungScience might mean something if a single one of the dowsers or LRL users would show their skills at finding an object a skeptic hides.
But seeing the reality of the strength of the LRL/dowsers convictions, their diatribe and HungScience will remain meaningless in the real world.
These whining fools are not capable of passing a simple test to show what locating skills they have or do not have.
And we continue to drag ourselves through the sludge of these whiners ... all because of a hardware problem on someone Else's server. :barf:

Best wishes,
J_P



Upset?
Don't be.
In this world we have two groups. The ones who can. Aaand... The ones who can't.
You are from the second row.
But everything in this life is temporary and it's never too late to learn, even if the entire process ends in your next life.

Talking about truthness...
Randi states he is a charlatan, a fake and a liar altogether.
Thanks to the PD's case, we found that you at least meet the last requirement in this list.

PS. Why are you complaining? You should be thankful to Art and me. If Esteban and I remain away from this saloon, it remains dead as a cemetery.
We bring activity here.
Of course all the technical and scientific aspects or LRLs are only discussed in private groups with chosen members and some also over TNET.
What did you expect? To discuss something more substantial with the mambo boys here?:lol:
Sorry, but this is just asking too much!
Have a nice day.:)

[WM6]

In this world we have two groups. The ones who can. Aaand... The ones who can't.


.:)

Correct.

You are from the second row.

You are from the ones who can't give to publicity scientificaly proven evidence that dowsing creations promoted by you & Co are working according seller claims.

[Qiaozhi]

If anyone here wants to try a Blind test with their equipment this is how I do mine
This is my version of a Blind test.
Exactly ... "my version" ... which is clearly full of ways to either consciously or unconsciously bias the results.
I use halves of 6 Plastic Easter eggs and a coin. I give my wife the coin and she goes out the back door and I stay inside while she places the coin under one of the egg halves. She then goes around the house and knocks on the front door. I go out, not having any contact with her. I start Locating thinking of anything else except for the Rods. Sometimes it is what I'm going to do tomorrow or a movie I saw the night before. I locate the coin, go in the house and give it to the wife and start over again. I make 10 to 15 passes and then take a break. My results are all ways the same. I find the coin every time.
Try performing the test correctly and you will then discover the results are no better than guessing. Or keep your head in the sand in case the results destroy your precious belief system. It's up to you - fact or fiction - which will you choose?

When I do the test and I think about finding the coin my results are different. The best was 60% finds but the usual is between 30% and 50% finds. I have done this test more than 20 times.
I wonder why? :rolleyes:

Why do I do these test? To see if I am still doing it right. I refuse to let the Ideomotor Effects control my rods UNLESS I want it to. When I test in my backyard I know that some mystery signal from a SUV will not block my signals. ..Art
The only reason you do these tests is to confirm your erroneous belief system. One thing is for sure, it is not to discover the truth. That would hurt too much. :razz:

By the way, next time you go out with your L-rods, try searching for a spelling and grammar checker. :lol:

[hung]

Hey Art, how do you like Ted's weirdo lookalike above?:lol:

[Theseus]

[/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR]Exactly ... "my version" ... which is clearly full of ways to either consciously or unconsciously bias the results.

[/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR]Try performing the test correctly and you will then discover the results are no better than guessing. Or keep your head in the sand in case the results destroy your precious belief system. It's up to you - fact or fiction - which will you choose?


I wonder why? :rolleyes:


[/FONT][/COLOR][/SIZE]The only reason you do these tests is to confirm your erroneous belief system. One thing is for sure, it is not to discover the truth. That would hurt too much. :razz:

By the way, next time you go out with your L-rods, try searching for a spelling and grammar checker. :lol:

Art likes keeping his head in the sand.... his whirly-gig rods work better for him that way. He can't find a spelling and grammar checker because he can't spell the words spelling and grammar. :lol:

[Rudy]

RATS ! :lol:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/11/25/rous_war_bomb_rats/print.html

[Art3811]

~Theseus (http://www.geotech1.com/forums/member.php?u=3072) ~


Art likes keeping his head in the sand.... his whirly-gig rods work better for him that way. He can't find a spelling and grammar checker because he can't spell the words spelling and grammar.
Great words..as usual
~Qiaozhi (http://www.geotech1.com/forums/member.php?u=619)~


The only reason you do these tests is to confirm your erroneous belief system. One thing is for sure, it is not to discover the truth. That would hurt too much
Gee…You can not complain about my blind test but you have to answer. I only speak for the 7 LRL’s and MFD’s that I have owned or used to locate and recover Gold. All 7 of these devices have passed this Blind Test by locating all the targets. Carl has tested all of these devices and found that none of them worked. My testing procedures must be a lot better than Carl’s…
Carl may want to erase the part of his challenge about “Waving a piece of Gold” in front of these devices. I know you guys cream your pants every time he says that but the real truth is that anyone who has ever tested these devices rolls on floor with laughter…Art

[Qiaozhi]

Gee…You can not complain about my blind test but you have to answer. I only speak for the 7 LRL’s and MFD’s that I have owned or used to locate and recover Gold. All 7 of these devices have passed this Blind Test by locating all the targets. Carl has tested all of these devices and found that none of them worked. My testing procedures must be a lot better than Carl’s…
Carl may want to erase the part of his challenge about “Waving a piece of Gold” in front of these devices. I know you guys cream your pants every time he says that but the real truth is that anyone who has ever tested these devices rolls on floor with laughter…Art

You obviously did not read my post very closely. I was indeed complaining about your blind test procedure. It is as full of holes as Swiss cheese. As for the comment: "My testing procedures must be a lot better than Carl’s…", that is certainly a cause for ROTFL. :lol:

[Art3811]

You obviously did not read my post very closely. I was indeed complaining about your blind test procedure. It is as full of holes as Swiss cheese. As for the comment: "My testing procedures must be a lot better than Carl’s…", that is certainly a cause for ROTFL.
My Blind Test has been on the internet for about 6 years now. All the “Scoobie-doo” investigators keep telling me that it is “full of holes”..So I keep asking them where the holes are?…as of yet no one has seen fit to answer that question…Art

[Theseus]

I only speak for the 7 LRL’s and MFD’s that I have owned or used to locate and recover Gold. All 7 of these devices have passed this Blind Test by locating all the targets. Carl has tested all of these devices and found that none of them worked.

That fact alone should tell you your test methods are obviously flawed. Carl is an Engineer and you are a high school dropout. Who do you suppose will be able to design a proper test procedure? (rhetorical)

(Just curious, do you ever read your postings before you hit the Submit Reply button?)

[Theseus]

My Blind Test has been on the internet for about 6 years now. All the “Scoobie-doo” investigators keep telling me that it is “full of holes”..So I keep asking them where the holes are?…as of yet no one has seen fit to answer that question…Art

Would you accept their answers if they gave them to you? A better question might be; Would you be capable of understanding the answers, such that you could then change your testing procedures so they wouldn't be "full of holes"?

I think we already know the answer to both those questions. ;)

[Carl-NC]

...everyone knows there are clauses in his 'challenge', that simply can't be met.

Name one.

[Art3811]

That fact alone should tell you your test methods are obviously flawed. Carl is an Engineer and you are a high school dropout. Who do you suppose will be able to design a proper test procedure? (rhetorical)
Would you accept their answers if they gave them to you? A better question might be; Would you be capable of understanding the answers, such that you could then change your testing procedures so they wouldn't be "full of holes"?

I think we already know the answer to both those questions.
Thank You for the answers to my questions….Art

[WM6]

Name one.



Uncontrolled humidity, or not proper continent, or to much light, or swindling not allowed, or too much vibration, or bad taste, or negative skeptic impact on dowsing rod, or ........., or......, or....

[hung]

Name one.

From the legal perspective, your 'contract' is bad written, fragile, dubious and it is prone to inferences when it never should.

Assuming it was not you who wrote it, the attorney who did it, clearly has not much experience in writing legal contracts.
I don't know exactly how it works in USA, but in Brazil, for this writing, he would never get any job as contract writer either for public or private services. The paper you introduce is trully an example of 'ex-nunc' specimen.

Among many things, it does not provide legal protection to the claimant in which the proctor can cheat any time he wants. Example: If a MFD user is taking the 'test', the proctor might at anytime, including in the occasion he is hiding the target, also hide a transmitter device to jam the frequencies of the MFD, thus ruining the small intensity signal lines and make the claimant fail miserably.
Also, the clauses are incomplete, give margin to a lot of different exact meanings, and you state that you will only pay 10% of the prize, being the rest later (!), but no guarantee is assured to the claimant.
There are other problems, but the whole contract as I said is legally inconsistent and bad written.

No wonder Mike Tune told you about it years ago. He even proposed another in which among many things required Banking guarantees from your part.

Carl, there's not too many dumb people around as you might think.
You can 'sell your fish' as much as you want stating that to date none took your 'test'. Your BS might be getting further out of control even for you.

You can fool a lot of people including your 'brides' here who believe that you are defending the naive against scammers, you are smart, and blah,blah,blah.
But you do not fool me. And you also do not fool many serious LRL users. Art is right when he states he does not trust you. You are not trustable. Your 'contract' is an evidence of that.

But why are we discussing this thing anyway? I have always told you that this is just a mean of promotion for yourself and this BS will not get anywhere. Nobody with at least 2 neurons will be naive enough to embark your boat.

I could also someday create my own 'challenge' in which I would bury a single gold coin 5 feet deep. Do you think you would be able to find it with the toys that Whites, Garret, etc. Currently sell to the masses? Huh?

Your time is running out. H3Tec is coming snifling on your nape.
If I were you I would worry about other things now.

[Art3811]

Exactly ... "my version" ... which is clearly full of ways to either consciously or unconsciously bias the results.
Would you accept their answers if they gave them to you? A better question might be; Would you be capable of understanding the answers, such that you could then change your testing procedures so they wouldn't be "full of holes"?</SPAN>Exactly what I expected. My test is full of holes but you can not tell me what holes are in it. If it is the hole of not having a Skeptic involvement you are wrong. I have made believers’ out of many skeptics. Hung is right about Carl’s test. I have witnessed the skeptics in action. Jamming and disruption is a way of live for you people…Art

[Saturna]

So now skeptics are jamming the signals ? ...hahahahaha.

I know the Big Book of Dowsing Excuses is as thick as a New York phone book, but this is a new one on me.

You guys really should listen to yourselves.

[J_Player]

So now skeptics are jamming the signals ? ...hahahahaha.

I know the Big Book of Dowsing Excuses is as thick as a New York phone book, but this is a new one on me.

You guys really should listen to yourselves.jamming the signals? What signals?

Aren't the Geotech skeptics mostly electronic technicians and engineers who work with real signals, not pretend signals? Of course we can expect new excuses from the Tnet refugees. We can expect all manner of whining and excuses, as long as the excuses can provide a reason why they can't meet the challenges to prove what they say is true.

These Tnet refugees forget they are now squatting in Geotech, where the rule is to prepare to get challenged if you make an extraordinary claim. So the best preparation they could dream up for their challenges is to think of new reasons why they can't meet the challenge? :nono:

Think about it... You can buy a $150 Chinese metal detector that can pass Carl's test every time (10/10) to locate which piece of plywood he hid the silver dollar under. But the best Art can do to identify which piece of plywood he hid the silver dollar under is the same success rate as random guessing will get. Should we believe stories where Art and others tell us how they find objects that skeptics hide... "it happens all the time" ... or would it be more convincing to see them accept the challenge and actually find an object that a skeptic hides so we can see it instead of taking Art's word for it?

Bottom line... Art and the other dowsing refugees from Tnet can't meet the challenge. Their dowsing and LRLs are not good enough to perform like a metal detector can, or even better than random guessing can. They proved this by whining at the idea of taking a test in front of skeptical witnesses to show what they say is true. The best they can do is tell stories of their methods and great success that they will never show to be true in a real test that we can witness.

The sad thing is they came here to hose down Carl's report on his dealings with the H3Tec people. Now we get to read a lot of crappy stories of fake dowsing success that the dowsers can't prove when we come to read about the latest updates in the H3Tec news. Maybe Carl should make a special section for Tnet refugee whining and move these stupid stories of dowsing success there so we can get back to reading the H3Tec news and updates.

Best wishes,
J_P

[Qiaozhi]

As both Carl and Rudy have (or have had) one of these devices, they are the most qualified to answer the question. That is: Does the dog wag its own tail, or not?
Slight error ... that should (of course) have been Carl and Jim. :redface:


[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Exactly ... "my version" ... which is clearly full of ways to either consciously or unconsciously bias the results.
[/QUOTE</SPAN>Exactly what I expected. My test is full of holes but you can not tell me what holes are in it. If it is the hole of not having a Skeptic involvement you are wrong. I have made believers’ out of many skeptics. Hung is right about Carl’s test. I have witnessed the skeptics in action. Jamming and disruption is a way of live for you people…ArtA husband and wife team does not constitute an unbiased test. Where is the third person to monitor the procedure? There are numerous methods that conjurers use to transmit information between the assistant and themselves, so consciously or unconsciously it is possible to leave signals or clues as to the location of the hidden target. Whether you do this intentionally or not is irrelevant. The fact remains, your so-called "blind test" is so full of holes that you could drive a bus through it. As for suggestions that skeptics would jam or disrupt the results is ludicrous. The whole purpose of the test is to remove any bias by the testers, even bias using trickery. Using your test procedure it is a simple matter to skew the results in the desired direction. I feel sorry for the skeptics who have been made believers ... or so you claim (which I doubt).

Also, while you are searching for a spellin and gramma checker, please also use the "quote" and "multi-quote" buttons which are clearly marked at the bottom right of each post. As you may have noticed, with your highly tuned paranormal abilities, your random cutting and pasting tends to create rather a jumbled mess at the start of each post.

[Art3811]

A husband and wife team does not constitute an unbiased test. Where is the third person to monitor the procedure? There are numerous methods that conjurers use to transmit information between the assistant and themselves, so consciously or unconsciously it is possible to leave signals or clues as to the location of the hidden target. Whether you do this intentionally or not is irrelevant. The fact remains, your so-called "blind test" is so full of holes that you could drive a bus through it. As for suggestions that skeptics would jam or disrupt the results is ludicrous. The whole purpose of the test is to remove any bias by the testers, even bias using trickery. Using your test procedure it is a simple matter to skew the results in the desired direction. I feel sorry for the skeptics who have been made believers ... or so you claim (which I doubt).
Also, while you are searching for a spellin and gramma checker, please also use the "quote" and "multi-quote" buttons which are clearly marked at the bottom right of each post. As you may have noticed, with your highly tuned paranormal abilities, your random cutting and pasting tends to create rather a jumbled mess at the start of each post.
Thank You for your answer. It is the same old junk replies. My simple test that requires no travel and no expenses works great. You guys have not read enough about me and my methods to make any kind of judgments’. I use “no” mental input in both Dowsing and use of LRL’s…If you try to use your Dowsing ability with a LRL you are doomed to failure.
Sorry you can not understand my post. I know simple true facts upset you making your mind fizzy about the real true facts that are presented….Art

[Qiaozhi]

Thank You for your answer. It is the same old junk replies. My simple test that requires no travel and no expenses works great. You guys have not read enough about me and my methods to make any kind of judgments’. I use “no” mental input in both Dowsing and use of LRL’s…If you try to use your Dowsing ability with a LRL you are doomed to failure.
Sorry you can not understand my post. I know simple true facts upset you making your mind fizzy about the real true facts that are presented….Art
Just the answer I was expecting. Typical head-in-sand approach.
There is one thing I definitely agree on ... that you use "no" mental input with your dowsng or LRLs. :lol: If you did, you would soon see the error of your ways.

Enough said; you are clearly a lost soul. But don't worry, Treasurenet will soon be resurrected, and you will be able to retreat to safe territory.

[Art3811]

~J Player~

I doubt H3Tec will hire an attorney to go after Carl.
I think H3Tec is scared to death to go to court where their equipment can be tested by an independent testing lab and the results published in newspapers, and maybe on TV.
~Qiaozhi!~

Just the answer I was expecting. Typical head-in-sand approach.
There is one thing I definitely agree on ... that you use "no" mental input with your dowsng or LRLs. If you did, you would soon see the error of your ways.
Gee player…The excuses are running wild around here….
Do you know if the H3Tec has every been tested by an Independent Testing Lab?
Qiaozhi….Why would I want to use mental input with my Dowsing Rods and my LRL’s? Both disciplines work perfect when I use no mental input. I do not make errors…I jut locate and recover gold…
Yes…I will return to T-Net….There are 48 owner/operators who under stand that these devices work as adverticed..Art

[Qiaozhi]

:rolleyes:~J Player~
~Qiaozhi!~
Gee player…The excuses are running wild around here….
Do you know if the H3Tec has every been tested by an Independent Testing Lab?
Qiaozhi….Why would I want to use mental input with my Dowsing Rods and my LRL’s? Both disciplines work perfect when I use no mental input. I do not make errors…I jut locate and recover gold…
Yes…I will return to T-Net….There are 48 owner/operators who under stand that these devices work as adverticed..Art
You evidently do not understand a sarcastic comment when you read one. By "no" mental input, I was implying "not using your brains". If you were, you would not be promoting this nonsense.

I see that you still haven't figured out how to use the quote and multi-quote buttons.

[Art3811]

Gee…I have complained for months about the quality of the skeptics on T-net..I guess I was wrong…Same quality on this board…Art

[Art3811]

Keep on talking as the hole just keeps getting deeper. It seems that the H3Tec people may be the least problem for you. You may have Libeled a much greater group of people. Pack you bags as you maybe heading to Utah….Art

[Qiaozhi]

Gee…I have complained for months about the quality of the skeptics on T-net..I guess I was wrong…Same quality on this board…Art
Try asking the same question again and again, and keep repeating it until you get the answer that you want. :rolleyes:

[Jim]

Try asking the same question again and again, and keep repeating it until you get the answer that you want. :rolleyes:

I feel sorry for the admin/mod's as they cannot use the IGNORE feature. You guys are obligated to read each and every post. Every single post...:::shudders:::

[Carl-NC]

From the legal perspective, your 'contract' is bad written, fragile, dubious and it is prone to inferences when it never should.

Most of your objections are vague and unspecific, so I can only address the specific examples:

Example: If a MFD user is taking the 'test', the proctor might at anytime, including in the occasion he is hiding the target, also hide a transmitter device to jam the frequencies of the MFD, thus ruining the small intensity signal lines and make the claimant fail miserably.Since I don't believe any of this stuff works in the first place, I certainly don't believe that "jamming" an LRL is possible. In any case, Claimant is encouraged (and allowed) to check for interferers before the test, and at any time during the test. They are also free to propose any other precautions they want. I have nothing to hide.

Also, the clauses are incomplete...Example?

...give margin to a lot of different exact meanings...Example?

...and you state that you will only pay 10% of the prize, being the rest later (!), but no guarantee is assured to the claimant.
Actually, it's 20%, and there is a guarantee of remainder in the contract.

There are other problems...Examples?

So that's it? I'm sure you realize that the contract is not rigid, and I fully encourage the claimant to make whatever changes to the challenge he deems necessary. I will gladly work with them to ensure a test that we both are confident is fair and properly tests the LRL claims.

[Art3811]

(http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,296187.msg2138445.html#msg2138445)
Re: Finally an Answer (http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,296187.msg2138445.html#msg2138445)
Reply To This Topic #42 Posted Jan 27, 2010, 04:29:58 PM
Quote (http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php?action=post;quote=2138445;topic=296187.0 ;num_replies=70;sesc=36274a307b1de8a0ddaf2a9c892c6 bab)

Quote from: EddieR on Jan 27, 2010, 11:43:58 AM (http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,296187.msg2138000.html#msg2138000)
I'm simply asking how the movement can be proven without a doubt to be ideomotor.
~Carl~
You can prove this with simple double-blind randomized tests.
(http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,296187.msg2138520.html#msg2138520)
Re: Finally an Answer (http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,296187.msg2138520.html#msg2138520)
Reply To This Topic #43 Posted Jan 27, 2010, 05:01:05 PM
Quote (http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php?action=post;quote=2138520;topic=296187.0 ;num_replies=70;sesc=36274a307b1de8a0ddaf2a9c892c6 bab) Modify (http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php?action=post;msg=2138520;topic=296187.0;s esc=36274a307b1de8a0ddaf2a9c892c6bab) Remove (http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php?action=deletemsg;topic=296187.0;msg=2138 520;sesc=36274a307b1de8a0ddaf2a9c892c6bab)

Quote
You can prove this with simple double-blind randomized tests.

So that tells us that there is no proof…Art

~Carl~
(http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,296187.msg2138615.html#msg2138615)
Re: Finally an Answer (http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,296187.msg2138615.html#msg2138615)
Reply To This Topic #44 Posted Jan 27, 2010, 05:39:37 PM
Quote (http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php?action=post;quote=2138615;topic=296187.0 ;num_replies=70;sesc=36274a307b1de8a0ddaf2a9c892c6 bab)

If you choose to ignore the results of the tests, or choose not to do the tests at all, then yes, there is no proof.

[Art3811]

~Carl~
With LRLs and dowsing, "random chance" applies to randomized blind tests, not to field use. A randomized blind test does 2 things that a field test cannot do. First, it eliminates outside influences that might alter performance results, such as observable clues. Second, it provides a baseline from which to compare results, namely guessing.

Despite intentional attempts to mislead people, random chance doesn't apply to field use. You can't ask, "What are the odds of digging 10 holes in a park and recovering a gold coin?" There is no way to calculate that, because there is not enough information*. But in a randomized blind test, it is quite easy to calculate the odds. Depending on the design of the test those odds can vary, so it is not a fixed number that applies to every test, but it's not a "moving target" either.
You are 100% correct! Use what you know to find treasure! Ferinstance, if you want to prospect, then use your knowledge of geology to assist in finding likely places to look. But here's the Big Question... do LRLs help in this effort beyond what knowledge and intuition offer? The only way to find out is to test the LRL under conditions in which knowledge and intuition are eliminated, and only LRL performance (or luck) remains. That's the purpose of randomized blind testing. And when LRLs are tested this way, they don't perform beyond luck. That is, they don't work.

[Art3811]

Results and Prize Award
The test is designed to eliminate the need to judge results. Because the target is placed in a discrete, marked location, a "hit" will only occur if the claimant selects the exact location of the target. Selections other than the correct one will not count as even partial credit. After 10 double-blind attempts are complete, the number of hits will be added. If the number of hits equals or exceeds 7 (for a 70% minimum success rate), the claimant will win the full prize amount.


Wow..What a great test. The only thing that this test will prove is …One man and his device can or can not win the money….It does not prove if the LRL is working or not…Art

[Qiaozhi]

Art - you still have no idea how to quote other people's posts in your replies. Putting this together with your poor grasp of the English language, one would wonder how you can ever have the remotest chance of understanding a double-blind test.
No wonder you are completely taken in by the ideomotor effect. :rolleyes:

[Art3811]

Art - you still have no idea how to quote other people's posts in your replies. Putting this together with your poor grasp of the English language, one would wonder how you can ever have the remotest chance of understanding a double-blind test.
No wonder you are completely taken in by the ideomotor effect.
Pretty simple to understand what Carl has told us. I understand Carl’s so called Double Blind Test that will prove nothing. The 1852 definition of Ideomotor Effects has nothing to do with using a LRL or MFD. Most people can understand the definitions of the Ideomotor Effects as the Scientific Studies have proved in the past 100 plus years. I am going to the store and I hope I do not have to use my Trained Ideomotor Response to keep out of an accident…Art

[J_Player]

Pretty simple to understand what Carl has told us. I understand Carl’s so called Double Blind Test that will prove nothing. The 1852 definition of Ideomotor Effects has nothing to do with using a LRL or MFD. Most people can understand the definitions of the Ideomotor Effects as the Scientific Studies have proved in the past 100 plus years. I am going to the store and I hope I do not have to use my Trained Ideomotor Response to keep out of an accident…Art Carl's test proves nothing? Are you sure?

I can pass Carl's test using a $69.95 toy metal detector. And you say your dowsing abilities will not pass the same test?

Isn't this the same kind of test Sandia Labs uses to determine if a locator works or not?
Why would this kind of test be considered to prove nothing when Sandia Labs uses it, the US government uses it, and it is required by the FDA before new drug products are placed on the market?

I think a double blind test can prove a $69.95 toy metal detector can locate which piece of plywood Carl hides a silver dollar under.
And I think it can prove that you can find the silver dollar by watching your rods cross when you step on the plywood where the silver is hidden under.
Do you really think your rods won't cross when you step on the plywood where Carl hides the silver dollar under?

Best wishes,
J_P

[Art3811]

~J Player~

Isn't this the same kind of test Sandia Labs uses to determine if a locator works or not?
Why would this kind of test be considered to prove nothing when Sandia Labs uses it, the US government uses it, and it is required by the FDA before new drug products are placed on the market?
A true Double Blind Study uses more than one person to compile the information for new drugs. I think testing one person would be a big waste of time. Read and learn something http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=Double+Blind+Study+Costs&hl=en&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart ….http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&aq=0&oq=Double+Blind+Studies&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4PCTC_enUS351US354&q=double+blind+studies
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&aq=1&oq=double+blind+study+&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4PCTC_enUS351US354&q=double+blind+study+definition (http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&aq=1&oq=double+blind+study+&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4PCTC_enUS351US354&q=double+blind+study+definition)
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&aq=3&oq=double+blind+&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4PCTC_enUS351US354&q=double+blind+study (http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&aq=3&oq=double+blind+&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4PCTC_enUS351US354&q=double+blind+study)
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/double-blind+procedure

[Qiaozhi]

~J Player~
A true Double Blind Study uses more than one person to compile the information for new drugs. I think testing one person would be a big waste of time. Read and learn something http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=Double+Blind+Study+Costs&hl=en&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart ….http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&aq=0&oq=Double+Blind+Studies&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4PCTC_enUS351US354&q=double+blind+studies
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&aq=1&oq=double+blind+study+&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4PCTC_enUS351US354&q=double+blind+study+definition (http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&aq=1&oq=double+blind+study+&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4PCTC_enUS351US354&q=double+blind+study+definition)
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&aq=3&oq=double+blind+&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4PCTC_enUS351US354&q=double+blind+study (http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&aq=3&oq=double+blind+&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4PCTC_enUS351US354&q=double+blind+study)
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/double-blind+procedure
As I said previously, you have no understanding of double-blind testing, or why it is a requirement in testing dowsing rods and MFDs. Yes, MFDs also need to be DB tested, as they are essentially dowsing rods in disguise, just like the H3Tec gadget.

[Art3811]

As I said previously, you have no understanding of double-blind testing, or why it is a requirement in testing dowsing rods and MFDs. Yes, MFDs also need to be DB tested, as they are essentially dowsing rods in disguise, just like the H3Tec gadget.
Just putting the information on this forum to educate people…Sorry if you can not understand the information…Art

[Theseus]

Boy, I'll be glad when Tnet is back up, so these guys can go back to there loony farm. :rolleyes:

[Art3811]

~Theseus~

Boy, I'll be glad when Tnet is back up, so these guys can go back to there loony farm.
I am having fun “educating” your membership. It seems that some of your membership are big posters on the “loony farm”. I shall continue to post the truth on this forum…Art

[Qiaozhi]

Just putting the information on this forum to educate people…Sorry if you can not understand the information…Art
Simply Googling for information and posting the links here is neither research nor educating people. Firstly you need to read the information yourself and try your best to understand it. I know it is difficult for you, but please try.

~Theseus~
I am having fun “educating” your membership. It seems that some of your membership are big posters on the “loony farm”. I shall continue to post the truth on this forum…Art

Unfortunately you still need to learn the truth before you can post it.

Also, notice how I am able to use the "quote" and "multi-quote" buttons when replying to other people's posts. Please try to do the same. Again, I know it is difficult for you, but you must try to concentrate harder. If this was a school report, I would have to put "Could do better" at the bottom.

[Theseus]

Also, notice how I am able to use the "quote" and "multi-quote" buttons when replying to other people's posts. Please try to do the same. Again, I know it is difficult for you, but you must try to concentrate harder. If this was a school report, I would have to put "Could do better" at the bottom.

Poor Art is maxed-out. He is operating at his very highest level, so I wouldn't look for him to do any better. The "quote" button is way over his head. He's never gotten the hang of that little concept. Nevertheless, he tells everyone he's smart enough to find gold with a cell phone. :rolleyes: Go figure..... :D

[Jim]

Use the IGNORE feature...saves a lot of grief and having to clean off your monitor

[Art3811]

~Jim~

Use the IGNORE feature...saves a lot of grief and having to clean off your monitor
Thank you Jim for telling us that you are ignoring the truth. You gentlemen keep Telling us that the H3Tec is just a Dowsing Device. Please tell the membership just why this is a bad thing for a device to be called? After all Dowsing has been proven to be a good method for finding many things for over 5000 years. I will not hold my breath waiting for an answer as I know you do not answer Questions that are hard…Art

[Aziz]

Please, sue me. I am the right person for this job.
I am stating, that the pseudo scientific scams do not work and I am urgently proposing not to buy such scams. And do not buy anything from a dealer, which sells scams too.

Comeon you bloody bas.tards. Sue me now.
Aziz

[Fred]

I didn´t visit the forum lately, and just discovered this great party, with all the good ol´participants. Nice !
Too bad some are not learning a thing and are stuck in the dead end of esoteric science .
And i think it is great to see haw scammers tecnhiques are being shown- Thanks Carl -

[Qiaozhi]

Please, sue me. I am the right person for this job.
I am stating, that the pseudo scientific scams do not work and I am urgently proposing not to buy such scams. And do not buy anything from a dealer, which sells scams too.

Comeon you bloody bas.tards. Sue me now.
Aziz
Hi Aziz,

As you can see you have been working in completely the wrong area . Forget about developing the latest and greatest VLF or PI technologies. Just put a circuit together that looks impressive, use a lot of scientific-sounding words to describe its operation, and attach a swinging arm. There you have it ... money for nothing! (Sounds like a good title for a song :lol:).

[Qiaozhi]

I didn´t visit the forum lately, and just discovered this great party, with all the good ol´participants. Nice !
Too bad some are not learning a thing and are stuck in the dead end of esoteric science .
And i think it is great to see haw scammers tecnhiques are being shown- Thanks Carl -
Hi Fred,

Please join the party. We need some fresh blood, and I'm starting to get bored. :drool:

[J_Player]

~J Player~
A true Double Blind Study uses more than one person to compile the information for new drugs. I think testing one person would be a big waste of time. Read and learn something http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=Double+Blind+Study+Costs&hl=en&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart ….http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&aq=0&oq=Double+Blind+Studies&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4PCTC_enUS351US354&q=double+blind+studies
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&aq=1&oq=double+blind+study+&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4PCTC_enUS351US354&q=double+blind+study+definition (http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&aq=1&oq=double+blind+study+&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4PCTC_enUS351US354&q=double+blind+study+definition)
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&aq=3&oq=double+blind+&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4PCTC_enUS351US354&q=double+blind+study (http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&aq=3&oq=double+blind+&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4PCTC_enUS351US354&q=double+blind+study)
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/double-blind+procedureUmmmm.... are you crazy?

Do you really think any educated person would run a double blind test with only one person?
Of course we will have a proctor and witnesses available to see you demonstrate how well your dowsing works.

You want me to believe it is a waste of time?
Try all you want.... it won't work.
I know how well double blind tests work to show what is fake BS and what is real.

So bring it on...!
I'm ready to see how well you can find the silver dollar hidden under the plywood.

Best wishes,
J_P

[hung]

I am stating, that the pseudo scientific scams do not work and I am urgently proposing not to buy such scams. And do not buy anything from a dealer, which sells scams too.
Comeon you bloody bas.tards. Sue me now.
Aziz

That's it.
Whites, Garret, etc... sell junk who cannot find a coin 3 feet deep and keep earning thousands of dolars each year from naive people.
Way to go Aziz. Go after them and welcome to the LRL club!

[Aziz]

That's it.
Whites, Garret, etc... sell junk who cannot find a coin 3 feet deep and keep earning thousands of dolars each year from naive people.
Way to go Aziz. Go after them and welcome to the LRL club!

I know, Whites, Garret, etc. are earning their money with good conscience and the customer gets, what he pays for.

But the LRL scammers even have no moral. They even would send people to get blasted and get killed.

I think, we should extend the test's with some armed mines. Let give the LRL scammers the first go over the mines.
:D
Aziz

[Qiaozhi]

That's it.
Whites, Garret, etc... sell junk who cannot find a coin 3 feet deep and keep earning thousands of dolars each year from naive people.
Way to go Aziz. Go after them and welcome to the LRL club!
I was going to say "nice try Hung", but your response is just too pathetic for words.
Aziz knows which side of the fence he is on, and it's not with your funny farm crowd.

Why you persist with your beliefs that even one of your dowsing gadgets can find anything, let alone a coin 3 feet deep (which you are obviously intimating in your post), is beyond comprehension. If you must continue using your calculator on a movable stick, then all treasures will remain safely underground well beyond your ability to detect them.

[Aziz]

Nano-Ionic Resonance (NIR) is a term you will be hearing a lot about in the future. NIR is H3 Tec's branded name for the company-proprietary process of listening to atoms "talk." Every element that exists has a unique voice, which distinguishes it from every other element or atom in the periodic table of elements. H3 Tec has made important discoveries which, added to the existing known and established sciences, provide a method of talking to and listening to each atom's voice. That's why we say, "If it doesn't say 'H3 NIR Licensed Technology,' it simply won't do the job."
Quote from http://www.h3tec.com/faq.html

What a bloody f***ing bull-s**t.

We can "see" atoms. We should hear atoms "talking" now. Bloody hell, they should apply for the Nobel price. The price is much higher than Carl is offering at the moment.

After the bas.tards got the Million $ price, they can afford suing me then.

[hung]

I think, we should extend the test's with some armed mines. Let give the LRL scammers the first go over the mines.
:D
Aziz

But don't you skeptics say LRLs don't work? The LRL guy would miss it then and would go over somewhere else with no mine.

However the MD scammer would go right on the spot, specially with a so shallow target, and the mine would blow his balls off!:lol:

[hung]

Quote from http://www.h3tec.com/faq.html

What a bloody f***king bull-s**t.

We can "see" atoms. We should hear atoms "talking" now. Bloody hell, they should apply for the Nobel price. The price is much higher than Carl is offering at the moment.

After the bas.tards got the Million $ price, they can afford suing me then.

But why would they sue you?
You've just joined the competition for LRL salesman of the year.
Guess you need to do better than that. Remember you have strong and seasoned competitors as Ozzy, WM6, Jim, etc.
Will be a hard time, but you have a good chance!

[Jim]

I was going to say "nice try Hung", but your response is just too pathetic for words.
Aziz knows which side of the fence he is on, and it's not with your funny farm crowd.

Why you persist with your beliefs that even one of your dowsing gadgets can find anything, let alone a coin 3 feet deep (which you are obviously intimating in your post), is beyond comprehension. If you must continue using your calculator on a movable stick, then all treasures will remain safely underground well beyond your ability to detect them.

Remember...'hung' is one of those "naive people" who bought a real metal detector!

[Art3811]

~J Player~

Do you really think any educated person would run a double blind test with only one person?
That is exactly what Carl’s fake test is all about. Can one person do the following. Thank you for agreeing with me.
Hey hung,..Shame on you for ticking them off…They still refuse to answer simple questions…Art

[J_Player]

But why would they sue you?
You've just joined the competition for LRL salesman of the year.
Guess you need to do better than that. Remember you have strong and seasoned competitors as Ozzy, WM6, Jim, etc.
Will be a hard time, but you have a good chance!Dang... I feel left out... am I just another etc.?

So tell us more about how gold DNA produces a substance that coats the metal to protect against the threats of rust and oxidation....
I wanna learn HungScience http://www.geotech1.com/forums/showthread.php?p=84058

:super:

Best wishes,
J_P

[hung]

Remember...'hung' is one of those "naive people" who bought a real metal detector!

Errr... This is a proof Art is absolutely right when he says that SWR has a great memory and gets everything right the first time you tell him.
He's amazing.
In the case above, this guy only needed to go over this same subject only 3 times now for the explanation I gave him that contained the huge amount of 3 lines with several words!

What a wonderful memory.
Congratulations SWR, you are one of a kind.

[Qiaozhi]

Dang... I feel left out... am I just another etc.?
You need to try harder! :lol:

~J Player~
That is exactly what Carl’s fake test is all about. Can one person do the following. Thank you for agreeing with me.
Hey hung,..Shame on you for ticking them off…They still refuse to answer simple questions…Art
Once again, proving that you never read anything properly, and thereby end up totally misunderstanding what's being said. Still not found the "quote" and "multi-quote" buttons then? Hint: look down at the bottom right below each post. :D

Deos tihs mkae mroe ssnee?

[hung]

~J Player~
That is exactly what Carl’s fake test is all about. Can one person do the following. Thank you for agreeing with me.
Hey hung,..Shame on you for ticking them off…They still refuse to answer simple questions…Art

But Art, think... If they answered simple questions, this would never be as much fun as the dance they do around them. That's why I call them the 'mambo boys'..

You see, we are in page 7 of this BS and look how much fun we had here.
As field THers we are the ones who keep their dreams alive.
And for the armchair THers, a dream is like food. They need it bad.
I bet some skepthics here are so addicted to LRL posts in this forum that they even take their computers to the bathroom!:lol:

[Aziz]

Look at the lies:


Hi guys,
We recovered this piece while scanning for gold. ....

Quote from http://www.h3tec.com/ (see the meteorite sample)


"The H3 Detector's always locate's the targeted element".

Quote from http://www.h3tec.com/product.html (look at the diver)

Well, gold should be targeted but the meteorite gave the signal.

Comeon guys, the LRL scammers targeted your money only. That's it.

[Art3811]

Once again, proving that you never read anything properly, and thereby end up totally misunderstanding what's being said. Still not found the "quote" and "multi-quote" buttons then? Hint: look down at the bottom right below each post.
Hey hung..The same old twist and spin..Then they start to duck and dodge…I think I read and understand what most people post. For some reason these guys can not understand English and understand it…Art

[J_Player]

...You see, we are in page 7 of this BS and look how much fun we had here.Really!

You think it is fun to lie to the readers of Geotech?
Have you ever considered that there are some people reading your posts who want to learn science, and they are interested to know about gold DNA?
Could you elucidate the details of how gold DNA produces a substance that coats the surface of the metal to fight against rust and oxidation?
http://www.geotech1.com/forums/showthread.php?p=84058

Or was this simply a lie you told to promote a particular brand of LRL?

Best wishes,
J_P

[Jim]

Errr... This is a proof Art is absolutely right when he says that SWR has a great memory and gets everything right the first time you tell him.
He's amazing.
In the case above, this guy only needed to go over this same subject only 3 times now for the explanation I gave him that contained the huge amount of 3 lines with several words!

What a wonderful memory.
Congratulations SWR, you are one of a kind.

Well, this makes absolutely no sense. Is this how debunkering is done down in Brazil? :eek:

[hung]

Look at the lies:


Quote from http://www.h3tec.com/ (see the meteorite sample)


Quote from http://www.h3tec.com/product.html (look at the diver)

Well, gold should be targeted but the meteorite gave the signal.

Comeon guys, the LRL scammers targeted your money only. That's it.

Hey Aziz,
I saw in H3Tecs site that they plan an event in december, where users will meet to locate hidden and buried things.
Why don't you show up to witness and learn?

This is your great chance to attend the show and gain some points over SWR as LRL salesman of the year.
SWR already said he will not be able to go. He is shy.
It's your chance! Grab it!

[Aziz]

Hey Aziz,
I saw in H3Tecs site that they plan an event in december, where users will meet to locate hidden and buried things.
Why don't you show up to witness and learn?

This is your great chance to attend the show and gain some points over SWR as LRL salesman of the year.
SWR already said he will not be able to go. He is shy.
It's your chance! Grab it!

I am not a LRL seller. Why should I promote the bas.tards?

[hung]

Hey hung..The same old twist and spin..Then they start to duck and dodge…I think I read and understand what most people post. For some reason these guys can not understand English and understand it…Art

Hey Art, I miss Ted and Af here...
They would bring one hell of fun to us.
We would only had to recomend the kids to not break any chinese porcelain in this forum.:lol:

[hung]

I am not a LRL seller. Why should I promote the bas.tards?

But you are already doing it!

[Jim]

Hey Aziz,
I saw in H3Tecs site that they plan an event in december, where users will meet to locate hidden and buried things.
Why don't you show up to witness and learn?

This is your great chance to attend the show and gain some points over SWR as LRL salesman of the year.
SWR already said he will not be able to go. He is shy.
It's your chance! Grab it!

Funny you should mention this event.

Did you happen to notice the post from the H3 dealer in California? Said he couldn't afford the trip to Texas. That sure speaks volumes about the gold/silver/platinum locating device he sells. Eh?

Anyhow....you need to stop lying. SWR never said he will not be able to go to this event in Texas. SWR said he would not travel to Utah for a dowsing demonstration.

:::mumbles about a lying sack of skat:::

[Aziz]

But you are already doing it!

No, this is a lie from you.
Why are you doing this?

[hung]

Now seriously Aziz,
You are one person I do respect here for your technical knowledge.
Sorry for the jokes, but I could not resist.

[Aziz]

Now seriously Aziz,
You are one person I do respect here for your technical knowledge.
Sorry for the jokes, but I could not resist.

I am sorry for you, but I do not respect you at all. You seem to be a bloody f***king scammer here.
All I can say you is the following:
"Crime does not pay!"

End of the story. I have said enough now.

[Art3811]

~AZIZ~

I am not a LRL seller. Why should I promote the bas.tards?
What does seeing a demonstration have to do with being a seller? Sure their will be salesmen there. You will get to see one of these devices which in many cases will be your first time. You may be able to use one and see for your self what it will do. What are you guys afraid of? I know…The old saying…Seeing is believing….Seeing one of these tools perform would bust your belief system into little pieces…OK ..I understand your fear …Art

[J_Player]

Now seriously Aziz,
You are one person I do respect here for your technical knowledge.
Sorry for the jokes, but I could not resist.What?
hung cannot resist the temptation to joke about his lies? :eek:

Best wishes,
J_P

[Saturna]

Jokes are OK. What would an LRL forum be without them ?

[hung]

I am sorry for you, but I do not respect you at all. You seem to be a bloody f***king scammer here.
All I can say you is the following:
"Crime does not pay!"

End of the story. I have said enough now.

No problem. Respect is a matter of being mature.
Eventually you will wake up.
If you really build things as I think you do, it may last years but someday you will hit the jackpot.
You only need to never lock the door to knowledge. Because if you do my friend, you will die with no acomplishments.
You may return to your coils forum.

[Saturna]

~AZIZ~
The old saying…Seeing is believing….Seeing one of these tools perform would bust your belief system into little pieces…OK ..I understand your fear …Art



Yes Arthur, that's what everybody here would like to see - one of these things actually perform and find something ...


... but we never will.



*Note - your laughable videos hardly count. (well, maybe for Hung, they do)

[Fred]

But don't you skeptics say LRLs don't work? The LRL guy would miss it then and would go over somewhere else with no mine.
Hung, would YOU go to a mine camp just with you LRL in hand ?

But Art, think... If they answered simple questions, this would never be as much fun as the dance they do around them. That's why I call them the 'mambo boys'..

Talking about mambo boys, i am still waiting to see an answer to many simple questions that have been made to you. And don´t say it´s because people don´t deserve your answer , or you will put yourself into a mambo boy position immediately- which may be considered as a promotion BTW.

[J_Player]

Some observations and suggestions:

1. For Art...
Go home. Take a class in forum-101 to learn how to link posts to your post. Ask a scientist how a double blind test works. Meditate and think about things for a few weeks. Then come back here if you think you have a clue how to show how well your dowsing works.

2. For hung...
Go home. Don't take any classes that teach anything technical... this could be dangerous for you. Hang out with your like-minded friends to bolster your beliefs and ego. Go to Tnet where your diatribe is well received.

3. For skeptics...
Ignore stupid ramblings of idiots who claim to have dowsing abilities but refuse to show them in front of skeptical witnesses. Petition Carl to remove these stupid ramblings to a new thread titled "stupid dowsing idiocy"

Best wishes,
J_P

[Art3811]

Some observations and suggestions:

1. For Art...
Go home. Take a class in forum-101 to learn how to link posts to your post. Ask a scientist how a double blind test works. Meditate and think about things for a few weeks. Then come back here if you think you have a clue how to show how well your dowsing works.

2. For hung...
Go home. Don't take any classes that teach anything technical... this could be dangerous for you. Hang out with your like-minded friends to bolster your beliefs and ego. Go to Tnet where your diatribe is well received.

3. For skeptics...
Ignore stupid ramblings of idiots who claim to have super dowsing abilities but refuse to show them in front of skeptical witnesses. Petition Carl to remove these stupid ramblings to a new thread titled "stupid dowsing idiocy"

Best wishes,
J_P
Thank You J-P….Every time you guys hit the submit button you prove that you are not capable of learning about this subject.
"The door to Knowledge & Understanding, is never open to a closed, or prejudiced mind”

[Fred]

3. For skeptics...
(...) Petition Carl to remove these stupid ramblings to a new thread titled "stupid dowsing idiocy"

Best wishes,
J_P
This would be unfair for them.They poor guys needs to express themselves publicly, you know.

[J_Player]

This would be unfair for them.They poor guys needs to express themselves publicly, you know.But they can express themselves...
in a thread called "stupid dowsing idiocy" ...
Not in a thread called "H3Tec Challenge" where we wait anxiously to read the latest developments in the matter of H3Tec vs. Carl-NC.

Think about it.... when you come to Geotech and you see a forum thread that says H3Tec Challenge.. do you expect to read about fake dowsing or about H3Tec news?

I don't know about you, but I think I would expect to read something about H3Tec, not a bunch of crappy dowsing whiners.
BTW, the H3Tec news is kinda interesting.... H3Tec is taking up where DKL and Quadro tracker left off. Maybe they will actually hire an attorney...
It will be like the superbowl of LRLs..!

Let the dowsing whiners cry in their idiots thread while we watch the real news that they try to conceal with their forum flooding.

Best wishes,
J_P

[Art3811]

Petition Carl to remove these stupid ramblings to a new thread titled "stupid dowsing idiocy"
I am here to discuss the H3Tec LRL. You keep referring to Dowsing and not the electronic device…I have never saw a electronic dowsing Rod so you posts make no sense at all…Art
Petition Carl to remove these stupid ramblings to a new thread titled "stupid dowsing idiocy"
I am here to discuss the H3Tec LRL. You keep referring to Dowsing and not the electronic device…I have never saw a electronic dowsing Rod so you posts make no sense at all…Art
5160 LRL and MFD users will go into the field and enjoy their hobby…
Soon to be 8000 then 15,000 and then even more
And Millions of Dowsers will also be in the field

[J_Player]

Petition Carl to remove these stupid ramblings to a new thread titled "stupid dowsing idiocy"
I am here to discuss the H3Tec LRL. You keep referring to Dowsing and not the electronic device…I have never saw a electronic dowsing Rod so you posts make no sense at all…Art
Petition Carl to remove these stupid ramblings to a new thread titled "stupid dowsing idiocy"
I am here to discuss the H3Tec LRL. You keep referring to Dowsing and not the electronic device…I have never saw a electronic dowsing Rod so you posts make no sense at all…Art
5160 LRL and MFD users will go into the field and enjoy their hobby…
Soon to be 8000 then 15,000 and then even more
And Millions of Dowsers will also be in the field
Ummmm...
I don't know what your post means, but I have a feeling you would do well to take a class in forum-101 to learn how to make your idea known when you post it. See suggestion here: http://www.geotech1.com/forums/showpost.php?p=119741&postcount=185

Best wishes,
J_P

[Fred]

You are right of course, but they need something tha looks serious."H3Tec Challenge"
looks like some scientific stuff, so they feel good posting here.

[J_Player]

You are right of course, but they need something tha looks serious."H3Tec Challenge"
looks like some scientific stuff, so they feel good posting here.Wait... I know how to solve the dilemma....

Nano-dowsing technology -- the thread!

what dowser could resist?

Best wishes,
J_P

[Fred]

Wait... I know how to solve the dilemma....

Nano-dowsing technology -- the thread!

what dowser could resist?

Best wishes,
J_P

Looks good. "micro particle long range detecting" sounds nice too.I think the word "detecting" and "long range" together are important for them.

[Art3811]

It is a common psychological problem in that insecure people tend to project their personal deficiencies unto another in self defense, they are sure trying to pass theirs lack of knowledge over to you

[Carl-NC]

I am here to discuss the H3Tec LRL.

So far, you've carefully avoided talking about the H3Tec LRL... please proceed!

[Qiaozhi]

I am here to discuss the H3Tec LRL.
Really? :???:
It seems you are only here to present your own brand of nonsense.

You keep referring to Dowsing and not the electronic device…I have never saw a electronic dowsing Rod so you posts make no sense at all…Art
Try studying the H3Tec pictures more closely. The swinging arm on the device is a dowsing rod, pure and simple. The so-called electronics do absolutely nothing to enhance the device, apart from fooling the unwary and naive such as yourself.

I am here to discuss the H3Tec LRL. You keep referring to Dowsing and not the electronic device…I have never saw a electronic dowsing Rod so you posts make no sense at all…Art
Repetition. As someone asked you earlier, do you ever read your posts before you click on the Submit button?

5160 LRL and MFD users will go into the field and enjoy their hobby…
Soon to be 8000 then 15,000 and then even more
And Millions of Dowsers will also be in the field
And ... your point is?

It is a common psychological problem in that insecure people tend to project their personal deficiencies unto another in self defense, they are sure trying to pass theirs lack of knowledge over to you
A prime example was presented earlier by Hung trying to project his current position as LRL Saleman of the Year onto Aziz, which was a spectacular failure. Thanks for pointing this out to everyone.

Now please attempt to do the following:


Read your posts before submitting.
Do your best to understand how to use the forum tools for quoting other people's posts.
Try to concentrate on the subject of this thread, which is H3Tec, and not to wander off into fantasies about millions of dowsers searching for treasure in the field.

But you don't have long to learn these new skills, so please hurray.
Message from TreasureNet:
With 99% certainty, the forum server will be online by late Monday, the 29th. Hopefully much sooner.

[Dave J.]

"Read the Advertisement"

Confused about all this LRL stuff? Wish you could reason it through? This post is for you.

CAVEAT LECTOR: If you don't want to reason it through, this post is not for you. You "true believers" have no need for reason and therefore you should avoid this post. Bail out now before it hurts your brain. Ya been warned, no sympathy for whiners!

************************
************************

Introduction

For the purpose of this essay, an "LRL" is a so-called long range locator which relies on a hand-held swivel mounted pointer device (typically a telescoping antenna) and has some sort of alleged electronic stuff associated with it which distinguishes it from a plain vanilla dowsing rod. Some LRL's use two, one in each hand, just as dowsers who use bent coat hangers usually prefer to use two rather than one.

When it comes to LRL's, there's usually a nasty debate over proving stuff one way or the other, what blinded testing is and whether or not it even matters, whether people who say their LRL finds stuff in a useful way are deluded or liars or providing accurate information, whether the supposed science really is or is just a bunch of malarkey, and so on ad infinitum. In some cases, people have actually opened up the units to look at the electronic stuff and found no working circuits of any kind in there. If you're new to this stuff, can all seem very confusing how to make sense of it.

The way to make sense of it is to set all that nasty debate aside, and read the advertisement -- from the point of view of the manufacturer of the LRL. If reading it from that point of view shows they regard their product as a scam, then you should also regard it as a scam.

Most of life doesn't require such a challenging level of critical thinking. People argue over what car is best, but nobody argues whether cars are just a scam. Houses, the roof may leak but nobody argues whether houses really "work" or not. During elections people get nasty over Republiphant or Democronkey but nobody asks if the candidates really exist, and in the end they govern pretty much the same way anyhow. Metal detectors? There are legal and illegal knockoffs, but nobody debates whether metal detectors as a class of product are bogus. They pretty much all work. Buying a used car, you're wary of getting burnt, the car could even be bogus (defective title)! But the car is usually okay, and you've calculated the risk involved.

When it comes to LRL's, you're navigating an unfamiliar world where the debate is not over which one is better, but over whether the things are bogus, maybe all of them. And the people who insist that their favorite brand isn't bogus make extravagant claims without backing those claims up with any kind of credible evidence. So this ain't like buying a used car or even voting for a politician, where you can probably live with the result even if it was a poor choice. Most LRL's are rather expensive, and if you're gonna get one you should satisfy yourself that the thing will probably do something for you besides empty your wallet. Caveat emptor, do your homework carefully.

In most of everyday life you probably trust people, even ones you don't know, unless you have some specific reason not to. That won't work with LRL's. You have to admit to yourself that with all the confusion that is raised over LRL's and the high prices involved, some people are liars and crooks and that some of them probably get away with it for decades. If you believe everyone's honest, you're gonna get fleeced.

There's a way to make sense of the chaos of information and misinformation and intentional disinformation and personality battles that aren't your battles. And that's to cut out the information middlemen. Go straight to the source, the manufacturer, and read the advertisement. With the brains God done guv ya turned on and tuned up, because as you already figured out, it's a jungle out there.

**********
**********

From an LRL manufacturer's perspective, there are basically two markets: the treasure hunting gullibillies, and military and security professionals who are not so gullible but can be conned with clever pseudoscience. I have not yet found any LRL's being marketed to a customer base that doesn't have to be scammed, so unfortunately this essay can't cover that one. What's left is for you to know for yourself, straight from the manufacturer, that it's a scam, so you don't have to suffer the punishment that scammers inflict upon their customers.


The treasure hunting gullibilly market

If you read treasure hunting and gold prospecting magazines, you've seen the ads. The ads usually make no explicit claims regarding what the unit will actually do, since, well, what does it actually do? There are usually pictures and words that hint at what you might imagine it to do, which of course is point to buried treasure. Often there's some blather about "molecular frequencies" or "ions" without reference to any independent source of information that you might access to verify that the supposed operating principle could have something to do with its functional operation if any functional operation is claimed. (Remember that any specific claims will be extraordinary, and therefore should not be accepted without some solid evidence.)

The manufacturer doesn't say "you can dowse with it" because then you'd wonder why you were paying hundreds or thousands of dollars for some pseudo-electronic nonsense when a bent coat hanger would probably work as well.

There's another problem with confessing it to be a dowsing rod. Some people want to dowse for treasure, but in their minds a dowser is an old superstitious fuddy-duddy. So they imagine that the gizmo isn't really a dowsing rod, and buy one to go dowsing without having to admit to themselves they're doing the same thing as a guy with a bent coat hanger. They pay a high price for the privilege of pretending they're not dowsing.

When you've seen several LRL ads targeted to the treasure hunting gullibilly market, you'll notice a pattern, a formula for the whole thing. What you can learn straight from the manufacturer, is that the manufacturer will not say in plain English that the thing works at all for any useful purpose. If you want to believe it does anyhow (and you get lots of encouragement to do so!), that's your (expensive) problem.

The variant is where the manufacturer does make a performance claim in plain English, attributing it to a little pseudoscientific blurb which when you Google it you discover that it leads to a dead end.

Probably the best known representative of an LRL marketed to the gullibillies is the Thomas Electroscope "Gravitator". If you read the ad carefully, you'll see how much fun the manufacturer is having at the expense of people who believe what they want to believe and inquire how to buy the thing. Back in 2002 on Treasurenet I said it was the best ad in the business, and I was right. "More treasure has been found"...... and is still being found, that's why the same ad is still running eight years later. Superb styling, a great adult toy for a guy who wants to relive a childhood of ray guns and magic wands.


The professional military and security market

These customers are generally trying to detect people, drugs, or weapons. Most of them hardly know what dowsing is, and expect an advertisement for equipment to say what it is and what it does. Since an LRL in this market makes extraordinary claims, the advertising is accompanied by an explanation of the supposed "scientific principle" of how the thing works. It may even be patented: some patent examiners aren't very bright. Or, a smart examiner may decide not to waste his valuable time on bozos, and let the bozo have a worthless patent.

Since this advertising is targeted to a somewhat sophisticated audience, it's supposed to pass as leading-edge real technology. The dead giveways that the manufacturer regards the product as a scam are usually absent. And they don't usually call them "LRL's" which would mark them as gullibilly products. Trying to figure out if a supposedly advanced locating product is real or bogus can be a challenge if you aren't familiar with the kinds of scientific technology that the manufacturer is claiming are the basis of the product. So here's some tips.

1. If it's designed to be held in the hand, with something that points to the target mounted on a swivel, it's a dowsing rod. Dead giveaway. In principle it would be possible to design certain types of real locating systems to mechanically actuate a pointer to indicate the direction of the target, but such a system if it existed would not need to be held in the hand, just as an ordinary magnetic compass does not need to be held in the hand in order to point north. It does the pointing. Actually, nowadays in electronic equipment pointing is usually done on an LCD screen, the new Fisher TW-82 pipe & cable utility locator for the industrial market affording an example. Mechanical indicators are usually too expensive and more prone to failure.

2. Extraordinary claims should be accompanied by solid evidence. For instance, if I designed a metal detector that looked pretty much like a regular metal detector but which could discriminate gold from other alloys (an extraordinary claim), if the thing really worked the company would have to either disclose how it was done in a way that other scientists could understand it and in principle could replicate it, or (if we wished to keep it a trade secret) we'd have to produce empirical evidence that could not be seriously questioned. Otherwise we would be rightfully regarded as scammers, even if we weren't. So, in the case of a long range locator of some sort you don't have figured out yet, which is accompanied by extraordinary claims, how do they address the problem of satisfying skeptics? If you are skeptical and they can't satisfy your expectation that such claims be substantiated, they don't deserve your business even if the thing works.

Probably the best example of an LRL aimed at the professional military and security market is the DKL "LifeGuard". The website is slick, makes many specific performance claims, and also includes stories where the thing was purportedly used to locate a person whose location or presence was otherwise unknown. The "extraordinary claim" is that it detects the electric field of a human heartbeat and only that, not being confused even by animals, and that it will do this at a distance of up to 500 meters under open field conditions, and at shorter range can do this even with the subject inside a metal enclosure. ......Now anyone familiar with the electric fields produced by the human heart and how they might be detected without physical contact to a human body can quickly figure out that such a claim is malarkey, but most folks don't have that particular kind of knowledge. So what are the tipoffs for the nonscientist?

1. It's got that swivel pointer attached to a grip that's designed to be handheld, and handheld only.

2. They offer no explanation of why anyone with knowledge in that field should regard their product as anything other than fraudulent.

It gets better.

3. The thing bears a striking resemblance to the Gravitator, which is advertised to the gullibilly market and which carefully avoids making any performance claim at all.

4. If you're holding this thing spotting an escaped convict's heartbeat from 500 meters away, you're gonna have to master the art of going into voluntary cardiac arrest in order not to overwhelm the thing with your own heartbeat less than a meter away. A few seconds later you'll be unconscious, so your buddy will have to grab the thing from you and continue.... wait! it was pointing at him, not the escaped convict! Now that you're unconscious, you can't figure out how to get your heartbeat restarted. You were tired of your job anyhow, right?

Killing two birds with one stone

The same product may be marketed to both the gullibilly and professional markets, in part because even in the professional markets there are gullibillies. A good case study example is the H3tec. Visit their website, see their movies, read their patent, read the things their reps have posted in this forum. It all smacks of gullibilly marketing, but they claim to be getting into the military market. .......Unlike most LRL's aimed at the gullibilly market, they have an elaborate pseudoscience system they claim is based on nuclear magnetic resonance. The average person won't know what to make of that, it's pretty much the domain of electronic engineers. The patent will impress people who believe that the patent office is diligent in throwing out bad patent apps (which however it is not).

So, if the whole junior high school bully & BS'er's club atmosphere that pervades their website and their posts in this forum leaves some doubt as to whether the thing is a scam (would you really do business with these guys?), here are the additional clues.

1. The photos and movies show what is obviously a pivoted pointer designed to be held in the hand. What a coincidence that it looks like a classic dowsing rod!

2. A person who seems to be a rep for H3tec posted in this forum that a person who buys the device signs a contract saying they can't sell or give it to anyone else and cannot tell anyone else what they know about it from factory information. In at least one case they're claiming that the company still owns it and is demanding its return! I've never heard of a purchase contract this bizarre, have you? ...... Now go to the website and look for mention of this bizarre contract. It ain't there. There are however several ways to pay. You wouldn't buy something you were sure worked from a company that does this kind of business, and there's no reason to think that it works at all-- except perhaps as a dowsing rod, but they haven't said that.

3. If you're curious about the science angle, and somehow the pivoted pointer in handheld apparatus has left you with doubt, you can read the forums to find out what people who actually know something about this stuff who aren't selling it say. Or, you can read the patent and even without delving into the arcana of NMR, just ask where in the patent it is disclosed how that pivoted pointer works.

************

--Dave J.

PS#1: some true believers whose heads now hurt (having refused my warning) will want to jump in and argue with me. Hey, if you choose to embrace delusion, go right ahead, you have my blessing. Not because I wish that upon you, but because I know that your problem is one I cannot fix, and in a few years it'll get fixed all on its own anyhow.

PS#2: there are some folks who without reading first, will want to jump into a flame war insisting that dowsing really works. This post has nothing to do with that issue! This post teaches how to read LRL advertising and understand what it's really saying about LRL's from the manufacturer's own perspective, so you can know what they know and not be fooled by them.

PS#3: if someday there's a non-scam handheld long range locating device for finding valuables, persons, drugs, or weapons, a lot of us would like to hear about it. Imposters need not apply.

[Qiaozhi]

Thanks Dave. :thumb:
A great first post on Geotech!

[hung]

"Read the Advertisement"

Confused about all this LRL stuff? Wish you could reason it through? This post is for you.

CAVEAT LECTOR: If you don't want to reason it through, this post is not for you. You "true believers" have no need for reason and therefore you should avoid this post. Bail out now before it hurts your brain. Ya been warned, no sympathy for whiners!

************************
************************

Introduction

For the purpose of this essay, an "LRL" is a so-called long range locator which relies on a hand-held swivel mounted pointer device (typically a telescoping antenna) and has some sort of alleged electronic stuff associated with it which distinguishes it from a plain vanilla dowsing rod. Some LRL's use two, one in each hand, just as dowsers who use bent coat hangers usually prefer to use two rather than one.

When it comes to LRL's, there's usually a nasty debate over proving stuff one way or the other, what blinded testing is and whether or not it even matters, whether people who say their LRL finds stuff in a useful way are deluded or liars or providing accurate information, whether the supposed science really is or is just a bunch of malarkey, and so on ad infinitum. In some cases, people have actually opened up the units to look at the electronic stuff and found no working circuits of any kind in there. If you're new to this stuff, can all seem very confusing how to make sense of it.

The way to make sense of it is to set all that nasty debate aside, and read the advertisement -- from the point of view of the manufacturer of the LRL. If reading it from that point of view shows they regard their product as a scam, then you should also regard it as a scam.

Most of life doesn't require such a challenging level of critical thinking. People argue over what car is best, but nobody argues whether cars are just a scam. Houses, the roof may leak but nobody argues whether houses really "work" or not. During elections people get nasty over Republiphant or Democronkey but nobody asks if the candidates really exist, and in the end they govern pretty much the same way anyhow. Metal detectors? There are legal and illegal knockoffs, but nobody debates whether metal detectors as a class of product are bogus. They pretty much all work. Buying a used car, you're wary of getting burnt, the car could even be bogus (defective title)! But the car is usually okay, and you've calculated the risk involved.

When it comes to LRL's, you're navigating an unfamiliar world where the debate is not over which one is better, but over whether the things are bogus, maybe all of them. And the people who insist that their favorite brand isn't bogus make extravagant claims without backing those claims up with any kind of credible evidence. So this ain't like buying a used car or even voting for a politician, where you can probably live with the result even if it was a poor choice. Most LRL's are rather expensive, and if you're gonna get one you should satisfy yourself that the thing will probably do something for you besides empty your wallet. Caveat emptor, do your homework carefully.

In most of everyday life you probably trust people, even ones you don't know, unless you have some specific reason not to. That won't work with LRL's. You have to admit to yourself that with all the confusion that is raised over LRL's and the high prices involved, some people are liars and crooks and that some of them probably get away with it for decades. If you believe everyone's honest, you're gonna get fleeced.

There's a way to make sense of the chaos of information and misinformation and intentional disinformation and personality battles that aren't your battles. And that's to cut out the information middlemen. Go straight to the source, the manufacturer, and read the advertisement. With the brains God done guv ya turned on and tuned up, because as you already figured out, it's a jungle out there.

**********
**********

From an LRL manufacturer's perspective, there are basically two markets: the treasure hunting gullibillies, and military and security professionals who are not so gullible but can be conned with clever pseudoscience. I have not yet found any LRL's being marketed to a customer base that doesn't have to be scammed, so unfortunately this essay can't cover that one. What's left is for you to know for yourself, straight from the manufacturer, that it's a scam, so you don't have to suffer the punishment that scammers inflict upon their customers.


The treasure hunting gullibilly market

If you read treasure hunting and gold prospecting magazines, you've seen the ads. The ads usually make no explicit claims regarding what the unit will actually do, since, well, what does it actually do? There are usually pictures and words that hint at what you might imagine it to do, which of course is point to buried treasure. Often there's some blather about "molecular frequencies" or "ions" without reference to any independent source of information that you might access to verify that the supposed operating principle could have something to do with its functional operation if any functional operation is claimed. (Remember that any specific claims will be extraordinary, and therefore should not be accepted without some solid evidence.)

The manufacturer doesn't say "you can dowse with it" because then you'd wonder why you were paying hundreds or thousands of dollars for some pseudo-electronic nonsense when a bent coat hanger would probably work as well.

There's another problem with confessing it to be a dowsing rod. Some people want to dowse for treasure, but in their minds a dowser is an old superstitious fuddy-duddy. So they imagine that the gizmo isn't really a dowsing rod, and buy one to go dowsing without having to admit to themselves they're doing the same thing as a guy with a bent coat hanger. They pay a high price for the privilege of pretending they're not dowsing.

When you've seen several LRL ads targeted to the treasure hunting gullibilly market, you'll notice a pattern, a formula for the whole thing. What you can learn straight from the manufacturer, is that the manufacturer will not say in plain English that the thing works at all for any useful purpose. If you want to believe it does anyhow (and you get lots of encouragement to do so!), that's your (expensive) problem.

The variant is where the manufacturer does make a performance claim in plain English, attributing it to a little pseudoscientific blurb which when you Google it you discover that it leads to a dead end.

Probably the best known representative of an LRL marketed to the gullibillies is the Thomas Electroscope "Gravitator". If you read the ad carefully, you'll see how much fun the manufacturer is having at the expense of people who believe what they want to believe and inquire how to buy the thing. Back in 2002 on Treasurenet I said it was the best ad in the business, and I was right. "More treasure has been found"...... and is still being found, that's why the same ad is still running eight years later. Superb styling, a great adult toy for a guy who wants to relive a childhood of ray guns and magic wands.


The professional military and security market

These customers are generally trying to detect people, drugs, or weapons. Most of them hardly know what dowsing is, and expect an advertisement for equipment to say what it is and what it does. Since an LRL in this market makes extraordinary claims, the advertising is accompanied by an explanation of the supposed "scientific principle" of how the thing works. It may even be patented: some patent examiners aren't very bright. Or, a smart examiner may decide not to waste his valuable time on bozos, and let the bozo have a worthless patent.

Since this advertising is targeted to a somewhat sophisticated audience, it's supposed to pass as leading-edge real technology. The dead giveways that the manufacturer regards the product as a scam are usually absent. And they don't usually call them "LRL's" which would mark them as gullibilly products. Trying to figure out if a supposedly advanced locating product is real or bogus can be a challenge if you aren't familiar with the kinds of scientific technology that the manufacturer is claiming are the basis of the product. So here's some tips.

1. If it's designed to be held in the hand, with something that points to the target mounted on a swivel, it's a dowsing rod. Dead giveaway. In principle it would be possible to design certain types of real locating systems to mechanically actuate a pointer to indicate the direction of the target, but such a system if it existed would not need to be held in the hand, just as an ordinary magnetic compass does not need to be held in the hand in order to point north. It does the pointing. Actually, nowadays in electronic equipment pointing is usually done on an LCD screen, the new Fisher TW-82 pipe & cable utility locator for the industrial market affording an example. Mechanical indicators are usually too expensive and more prone to failure.

2. Extraordinary claims should be accompanied by solid evidence. For instance, if I designed a metal detector that looked pretty much like a regular metal detector but which could discriminate gold from other alloys (an extraordinary claim), if the thing really worked the company would have to either disclose how it was done in a way that other scientists could understand it and in principle could replicate it, or (if we wished to keep it a trade secret) we'd have to produce empirical evidence that could not be seriously questioned. Otherwise we would be rightfully regarded as scammers, even if we weren't. So, in the case of a long range locator of some sort you don't have figured out yet, which is accompanied by extraordinary claims, how do they address the problem of satisfying skeptics? If you are skeptical and they can't satisfy your expectation that such claims be substantiated, they don't deserve your business even if the thing works.

Probably the best example of an LRL aimed at the professional military and security market is the DKL "LifeGuard". The website is slick, makes many specific performance claims, and also includes stories where the thing was purportedly used to locate a person whose location or presence was otherwise unknown. The "extraordinary claim" is that it detects the electric field of a human heartbeat and only that, not being confused even by animals, and that it will do this at a distance of up to 500 meters under open field conditions, and at shorter range can do this even with the subject inside a metal enclosure. ......Now anyone familiar with the electric fields produced by the human heart and how they might be detected without physical contact to a human body can quickly figure out that such a claim is malarkey, but most folks don't have that particular kind of knowledge. So what are the tipoffs for the nonscientist?

1. It's got that swivel pointer attached to a grip that's designed to be handheld, and handheld only.

2. They offer no explanation of why anyone with knowledge in that field should regard their product as anything other than fraudulent.

It gets better.

3. The thing bears a striking resemblance to the Gravitator, which is advertised to the gullibilly market and which carefully avoids making any performance claim at all.

4. If you're holding this thing spotting an escaped convict's heartbeat from 500 meters away, you're gonna have to master the art of going into voluntary cardiac arrest in order not to overwhelm the thing with your own heartbeat less than a meter away. A few seconds later you'll be unconscious, so your buddy will have to grab the thing from you and continue.... wait! it was pointing at him, not the escaped convict! Now that you're unconscious, you can't figure out how to get your heartbeat restarted. You were tired of your job anyhow, right?

Killing two birds with one stone

The same product may be marketed to both the gullibilly and professional markets, in part because even in the professional markets there are gullibillies. A good case study example is the H3tec. Visit their website, see their movies, read their patent, read the things their reps have posted in this forum. It all smacks of gullibilly marketing, but they claim to be getting into the military market. .......Unlike most LRL's aimed at the gullibilly market, they have an elaborate pseudoscience system they claim is based on nuclear magnetic resonance. The average person won't know what to make of that, it's pretty much the domain of electronic engineers. The patent will impress people who believe that the patent office is diligent in throwing out bad patent apps (which however it is not).

So, if the whole junior high school bully & BS'er's club atmosphere that pervades their website and their posts in this forum leaves some doubt as to whether the thing is a scam (would you really do business with these guys?), here are the additional clues.

1. The photos and movies show what is obviously a pivoted pointer designed to be held in the hand. What a coincidence that it looks like a classic dowsing rod!

2. A person who seems to be a rep for H3tec posted in this forum that a person who buys the device signs a contract saying they can't sell or give it to anyone else and cannot tell anyone else what they know about it from factory information. In at least one case they're claiming that the company still owns it and is demanding its return! I've never heard of a purchase contract this bizarre, have you? ...... Now go to the website and look for mention of this bizarre contract. It ain't there. There are however several ways to pay. You wouldn't buy something you were sure worked from a company that does this kind of business, and there's no reason to think that it works at all-- except perhaps as a dowsing rod, but they haven't said that.

3. If you're curious about the science angle, and somehow the pivoted pointer in handheld apparatus has left you with doubt, you can read the forums to find out what people who actually know something about this stuff who aren't selling it say. Or, you can read the patent and even without delving into the arcana of NMR, just ask where in the patent it is disclosed how that pivoted pointer works.

************

--Dave J.

PS#1: some true believers whose heads now hurt (having refused my warning) will want to jump in and argue with me. Hey, if you choose to embrace delusion, go right ahead, you have my blessing. Not because I wish that upon you, but because I know that your problem is one I cannot fix, and in a few years it'll get fixed all on its own anyhow.

PS#2: there are some folks who without reading first, will want to jump into a flame war insisting that dowsing really works. This post has nothing to do with that issue! This post teaches how to read LRL advertising and understand what it's really saying about LRL's from the manufacturer's own perspective, so you can know what they know and not be fooled by them.

PS#3: if someday there's a non-scam handheld long range locating device for finding valuables, persons, drugs, or weapons, a lot of us would like to hear about it. Imposters need not apply.

Some points lack scientific understanding, other points use 'hearsay' non scientific or factual analysis as a lame support and the rest is simply pure BS.

I will go over this later when and IF I have the time.

[pebe]

Some points lack scientific understanding, other points use 'hearsay' non scientific or factual analysis as a lame support and the rest is simply pure BS.......Which points fall into which categories?

[WM6]

Some points lack scientific understanding, other points use 'hearsay' non scientific or factual analysis as a lame support and the rest is simply pure BS.




Your "scientific" point of simpy pure BS - as usual.

[Theseus]

Thanks Dave. :thumb:
A great first post on Geotech!

Let me second that "thumbs up"!!!

Pay no attention to the Hung, he will always try and stifle the truth, but his promise to debunker is an empty one. He is one of, and defends the scammers you are talking about, so naturally he is hurt by the truth in your posting. Thanks for putting it on here.

:thumb: :cheers:

[Dave J.]

for reposting the entire essay! I'm flattered.

--Dave J.

[Saturna]

Some points lack scientific understanding, other points use 'hearsay' non scientific or factual analysis as a lame support and the rest is simply pure BS.



Well, we certainly don't want those on an LRL/Dowsing forum. 13820

[Carl-NC]

Art, I "pruned" your off-topic rants, and other people's replies. If you want to discuss H3Tec, then discuss H3Tec! If you don't want to discuss H3Tec, then please post your rants in the RS forum, or go back to TNet.

[Rudy]

"Read the Advertisement"



Outstanding!!! :thumb:

Do we have a category for best LRL post?

[Theseus]

Art, I "pruned" your off-topic rants, and other people's replies. If you want to discuss H3Tec, then discuss H3Tec! If you don't want to discuss H3Tec, then please post your rants in the RS forum, or go back to TNet.

Thanks for the clean-up on Aisle #6. On Tnet he gets away with posting that kind of crap all the time; which he does just so he has the last posting in a thread. Hopefully Tnet will be back up sometime today. ;) Feel free to delete this, as well.

[J_Player]

Art, I "pruned" your off-topic rants, and other people's replies. If you want to discuss H3Tec, then discuss H3Tec! If you don't want to discuss H3Tec, then please post your rants in the RS forum, or go back to TNet.Thanks Carl!
Now back to H3Tec news and developments. :)

It seems like it's H3Tec's turn... Will we see more email demands and threats?
Or will we see reports that their attorney is making demands next? :eek: :???: :shrug:


Dave J. -- Excellent article about the H3Tec. :super:
Any casual reader can come here and read your post to get a clear idea of what this device is.
See here: http://www.geotech1.com/forums/showpost.php?p=119761&postcount=197


Best wishes,
J_P

[Art3811]

Art, I "pruned" your off-topic rants, and other people's replies. If you want to discuss H3Tec, then discuss H3Tec! If you don't want to discuss H3Tec, then please post your rants in the RS forum, or go back to TNet.
Thank you Carl for telling me that you and your people object about discussions’ about the H3Tec…Could you explain to Why you consider the H3Tec to be just a “Dowsing Rod? That is your claim so I think the first step in the any discuss should be that Dowsing is real…Art

[Qiaozhi]

If we ignore the fact that your post is barely intelligible, let's try to address your comments.

Thank you Carl for telling me that you and your people object about discussions’ about the H3Tec…
There is no objection to anyone discussing the H3Tec device. In fact, this is the precise reason for this thread. Are you confused about something?

Could you explain to Why you consider the H3Tec to be just a “Dowsing Rod?
Look at the image posted below. There are no IFs or BUTs, this is a dowsing rod. It has a swinging arm that is free to move. The arm is not actuated by the electronic circuitry, but operates completely independently.

That is your claim so I think the first step in the any discuss should be that Dowsing is real…Art
This doesn't even make sense. Why would the first step need to be a declaration that dowsing is real? The dowsing effect is well known to be a trick of the mind.

Do you think this plastic gadget looks like something that costs $10,000?

[Art3811]

This doesn't even make sense. Why would the first step need to be a declaration that dowsing is real? The dowsing effect is well known to be a trick of the mind.
You are the ones that are saying that the H3Tec is a Dowsing Rod…Do you know anything about Dowsing except for the fact that you can not Dowse? Can you tell us why you claim that all LRL’s are just Dowsing rod? How come that Millions of Dowsers do not believe that it is a trick of the mind? How come if Dowsing is a trick of the mind most Dowsers are successful Treasure Hunters? Just some more questions for you to duck and dodge…Art

[Rudy]

Thank you Carl for telling me that you and your people object about discussions’ about the H3Tec…Could you explain to Why you consider the H3Tec to be just a “Dowsing Rod? That is your claim so I think the first step in the any discuss should be that Dowsing is real…Art

Let me give you my synopsis. I posted a few days ago my take on the patent (http://www.geotech1.com/forums/showpost.php?p=119622&postcount=127), and said it was wrong on so many levels, but I didn't really address them in any detail.

The claim is that the LRL is based on technology that stimulates and then senses the target, using Nuclear Magnetic Resonance (NMR). I am no expert in NMR as my field is E.E., but I know enough to know that to satisfactorily perform NMR of a substance, a magnetic field substantially higher than that of the earth's is required. 0.5 Gauss (typical earth's field) is way too small. You really want to subject the sample to a magnetic field of at least 1 Tesla, which works out to 10000 Gauss. That is unless of course you can find a way to cool the target to near absolute Zero temperature, where the atomic vibrations are reduced to a level where a much lower magnetic field is able to force alignment of the magnetic moment of the target's atoms with the applied magnetic field. Since the patent doesn't address how to cool the remote target to cryogenic temperatures, we can safely infer that it is not done.

Why would you want to do this? Quite simply because to detect Magnetic Resonance, you need to have the magnetic moment of the atoms in the target aligned in the direction of the applied magnetic field, or in the anti-parallel direction. Gold, not being ferromagnetic will not spontaneously align by itself and a large field is required to overcome thermally induced randomness in the magnetic moments of the atoms in the target. The higher the field, the larger the signal obtained and the more sharply defined is the resonance.

Next, one needs to irradiate the target with RF energy of the proper frequency. As stated in the patent, the right frequency is a function of the element, its temperature and the magnetic field strength it is subjected to, although I am not sure the equation shown is correct. The RF energy density needs to be significantly large to cause a reasonable number of atoms to flip to the higher energy (anti-parallel) state, followed by quickly turning off the RF source and then listening to the signal radiated by the excited atoms as they flip back to their low energy state. OP amps, and band-pass filters are not the kind of electronics that will achieve those results. Neither is the "antenna" (aka dowsing rod) used. An end fed antenna has to be of the right length relative to the RF frequency required to irradiate the sample and as the patent stated, the frequencies necessary to detect different atomic targets is quite broad, going from KHz to GHz. But, above all, the shape of the radiated field is such that it will be a minimum in the direction of the pointed end. Note that this is precisely the position the antenna (aka dowsing rod) will assume to indicate the direction of the sample. Needless to say, the received signal strength will never, under any circumstances, be large enough to create the torque necessary to rotate the antenna. Another reason why the instrument doesn't work when affixed to a bench.

So, to summarize: We are using the wrong electrical circuitry to perform NMR; the device uses a very inefficient RF radiator to stimulate the target; the pointy radiator (aka dowsing rod) aligns itself in a trajectory that minimizes the stimulated signal and the received signal simultaneously while the marketing BS claims an incredible detection range.

The device will not point to any target unless it is hand held. Last I read up on NMR, the ideomotor effect was not a requirement for successful NMR sample detection.

Last but not least, the use of an electrical brush and spring at the bottom of the dowsing rod does increase friction in the system, requiring a stronger ideomotor effect from the user to cause the instrument to point to something. You can think of this as a loss of dowsing sensitivity, or looking at it positively, as lowering the incidence of false positives. :razz:

[Art3811]

Hey Rudy…If your theories are right could you explain to the rest of us how come these devices are so good at locating gold and other minerals?....Art

[WM6]

Hey Rudy…If your theories are right could you explain to the rest of us how come these devices are so good at locating gold and other minerals?....Art



Because you ever use metal detector during your dowsing session. Just because of use metal detector.

[Carl-NC]

Could you explain to Why you consider the H3Tec to be just a “Dowsing Rod? That is your claim so I think the first step in the any discuss should be that Dowsing is real…Art

Whether or not dowsing is "real" has no bearing on whether or not something is a dowsing rod. Even if I don't believe a Ouija board works, I can still look at one and say, "That's a Ouija board."

[Fred]

How come if Dowsing is a trick of the mind most Dowsers are successful Treasure Hunters? Just some more questions for you to duck and dodge…Art
Just because they are AS sucesfull as if they were carefully looking around, choosing a place and dig. They could also toss a coin, but then their experience in knowing where previous recovery were more sucesfull would not work.

Hey Rudy…If your theories are right could you explain to the rest of us how come these devices are so good at locating gold and other minerals?....Art

They are not, or it would have been proved long ago.

[Art3811]

Whether or not dowsing is "real" has no bearing on whether or not something is a dowsing rod. Even if I don't believe a Ouija board works, I can still look at one and say, "That's a Ouija board."


Just because they are AS sucesfull as if they were carefully looking around, choosing a place and dig. They could also toss a coin, but then their experience in knowing where previous recovery were more sucesfull would not work.


They are not, or it would have been proved long ago.
Thank you gentle for your answers….I have purchased 4 LRL’s and MFD’s from 3 different manufactures. I asked all three of them similar questions. They answered all my questions and showed me how the devices worked. You guys keep claiming that you are on the internet to keep people from buying these devices…How could your failure to answer simple questions keep people from investigating the subject more?..That is why some of this membership are inline to by LRL salesman of the your….Art

[Fred]

Art, the failure to answer how it works is YOURS , not ours. YOU say it works, so prove it, then tell us HOW.

[Art3811]

Art, the failure to answer how it works is YOURS , not ours. YOU say it works, so prove it, then tell us HOW.
Thank you Fred…
It is a common psychological problem in that insecure people tend to project their personal deficiencies unto another in self defense, they are sure trying to pass theirs lack of knowledge over to you

[Rudy]

Hey Rudy…If your theories are right could you explain to the rest of us how come these devices are so good at locating gold and other minerals?....Art

Art, I was not making a blanket statement about LRLs in general. I was staying within the topic of this thread. Specifically the H3 Tec device. My conclusion, based on sound accepted science, about the H3 Tec device is that it can not successfully employ NMR techniques to detect anything. Any detection capability that it may exhibit is strictly based on the ideomotor effect on a dowsing rod.

Wether or not some individuals can successfully dowse for precious metals has no bearing on wether or not the H3 Tec claims about their machine employing NMR are truthful.

PS: I could have gone on with a few more reasons in my analysis but I thought my point was already proven.

[Dave J.]

Art, you need a crash course on what it means to be a "dowsing claimant".

A "claimant" is a dowser/LRL'er who claims he can do this and do that, but can't back it up with anything besides more claims he can do this and do that. You know the pattern well.

The nongullibles here also know the pattern well. We don't believe you can do diddlysquat, and it's the things that you say that convince us of that. We've been listening to blowhard braggarts since we were kids, you're nothing new to us.

I'll tell you a Monday evening bedtime story. You decide whether it's fact or fiction. Lose some sleep over it if that's what it takes.

* * * * * * *

Growing up, "Jerry" noticed that sometimes he seemed to have hunches that were unusually lucky, and sometimes dreamed things that later came true in detail. In his late teens he took up an interest in "treasure hunting" as many young fellows do, and tried his hand at dowsing with a coat hanger. And by golly, now and then he seemed to get results just too good to explain by chance.

He took up dowsing as a hobby, and as it turns out he actually had a bit of talent.

Then he met other more experienced dowsers who claimed to get really good results with fancier equipment, and had all kinds of tips on why bad dowses happen. And that was the beginning of Jerry's downfall.

He started bragging how good he was.

And his new friends trained him in an alabi system that stopped him cold from being able to learn from his mistakes. The alabi system kept improving instead of his skill.

Since every failure could be attributed to something or someone besides himself, he became even more sure of his dowsing ability, bragging even more, even while his ego investment in outcomes was ruining the ability of his subconscious mind to be able to manifest itself through the rods.

He got so proud that he sunk big bucks into a fancy LRL so he wouldn't have to be seen with the lowly dowsing rods any more. His LRL buddies complimented him. The LRL came with an even more elaborate alabi system. And LRL'ers are supposed to deny that they're even dowsing. It's some sort of fancy technology, right? right? right?

And thus did Jerry become like his mentor buddies. Zero dowsing ability, in so much denial that he didn't even know he had lost all dowsing ability, claiming to be able to do this if only and that if only and this other thing if only, demanding to be believed, and bewildered that nobody with a lick of common sense would take him seriously. And his friends and family wondered what had happened to the reasonably level-headed kid they once knew.

At least his LRL buddies were still there to keep him pumped up.

And that's the story of how "Jerry" became a "dowsing claimant".

* * * * * * *

--Dave J.

[hung]

Hello Dave,


For the purpose of this essay, an "LRL" is a so-called long range locator which relies on a hand-held swivel mounted pointer device (typically a telescoping antenna) and has some sort of alleged electronic stuff associated with it which distinguishes it from a plain vanilla dowsing rod. Some LRL's use two, one in each hand, just as dowsers who use bent coat hangers usually prefer to use two rather than one.


'Your definition posted is not accurate and it's incomplete. It's not accurate when it states 'some use two, one in each hand'. Wrong. Those are not LRLs. Those are the sensors of MFD type based LRLs.
And it's incomplete when you only consider swivel type LRLs. There are also electronic LRLs, with no swivel mechanism.'

When it comes to LRL's, there's usually a nasty debate over proving stuff one way or the other, what blinded testing is and whether or not it even matters, whether people who say their LRL finds stuff in a useful way are deluded or liars or providing accurate information, whether the supposed science really is or is just a bunch of malarkey,and so on ad infinitum(...) BS#1.
Will not care to coment.
Most of life doesn't require such a challenging level of critical thinking. People argue over what car is best, but nobody argues whether cars are just a scam. Houses, the roof may leak but nobody argues whether houses really "work" or not. (…) Metal detectors? There are legal and illegal knockoffs, but nobody debates whether metal detectors as a class of product are bogus. (…) BS#2
They are bogus when they do not go deep enough for the price paid. They are bogus when they do not work well over mineralized soils. They are bogus when they do not work at all over high magnetic locations (to the point of even become defective), they are bogus when they have problems in pinpointing long time buried metal which produces a 'halo' effect and confuses the coil.
And finally, they are bogus when they still employ an obsolete concept of early 1900's with all the fancy add-ons.
Remember those 90's TV comercials about hair systems? A wig is a wig by any other name...
(...)Most LRL's are rather expensive, and if you're gonna get one you should satisfy yourself that the thing will probably do something for you besides empty your wallet. Caveat emptor, do your homework carefully.(...) BS#3
I imagine they are expensive so that the user is somehow discouraged to open the device and also due to the benefits it brings.
I have a friend who always states he recovered already 10 times the value he paid in his (expensive) LRL.
There are also regular MD users who pay ultra expensive amounts for a gadget that can only go some inches and take years to even recover in goods the amount he paid for the machine. Of course there are the lucky ones who can find a diamond ring all of a sudden. But how often does this happen, when the majority of time these users collect more pulltabs than the beer factories themselves?
And there are also the ones who never found anything valuable. I know some of them. So it's just a matter of relativity.
There's a way to make sense of the chaos of information and misinformation and intentional disinformation and personality battles that aren't your battles. And that's to cut out the information middlemen. Go straight to the source, the manufacturer, and read the advertisement. With the brains God done guv ya turned on and tuned up, because as you already figured out, it's a jungle out there. Non sequitur...
From an LRL manufacturer's perspective, there are basically two markets: the treasure hunting gullibillies, and military and security professionals who are not so gullible but can be conned with clever pseudoscience. (...)I that it's a scam, so you don't have to suffer the punishment that scammers inflict upon their customers. BS#4
See BS#1 above.
The manufacturer doesn't say "you can dowse with it" because then you'd wonder why you were paying hundreds or thousands of dollars for some pseudo-electronic nonsense when a bent coat hanger would probably work as well. Define 'pseudo electronic nonsense'.
There's another problem with confessing it to be a dowsing rod. (...)They pay a high price for the privilege of pretending they're not dowsing. Define dowing and dowsing rod.

Since an LRL in this market makes extraordinary claims, the advertising is accompanied by an explanation of the supposed "scientific principle" of how the thing works. What extraordinary claim is made and why 'supposed' scientific principle? Detail this in scientific terms.
1. If it's designed to be held in the hand, with something that points to the target mounted on a swivel, it's a dowsing rod. Since you did not provide the explanation for dowsing, your statement above is non sequitur.
Dead giveaway. In principle it would be possible to design certain types of real locating systems to mechanically actuate a pointer to indicate the direction of the target, but such a system if it existed would not need to be held in the hand, just as an ordinary magnetic compass does not need to be held in the hand in order to point north. In order to fully explain the reasons a swivel LRL needs to be held, I would have to disclose information of my own research, which I choose not to do at this time.
But it suffices to say that there are interaction of charges between air, body and target to build up induction and resonance based on the frequencies used. The swivel LRL user often needs to be in movement in order to create electrostatic charges. Also, the human body is very sensitive to tiny currents in the ground when using rods. They can sense about 20mA to a few microamperes. Since the body is also very sensitive to small magnetic fields (Rocard calculated about 0.3mOe/m), swivel LRLs and MFD types act as increasing amplifiers with the correspondent frequencies. A quantum system is formed working similar, but not exactly as a Aharonov-Bohm magnetic dipole to sense magnetic anomalies. Something that a regular electronic device would never be able to do because of noise. However it's possible to build a special electronic device for this function.
Trying to infere that an LRL rod or antenna should behave like a magnetic compass is simply absurd.
For instance, if I designed a metal detector that looked pretty much like a regular metal detector but which could discriminate gold from other alloys (an extraordinary claim), if the thing really worked the company would have to either disclose how it was done in a way that other scientists could understand it and in principle could replicate it. No they would not.
how do they address the problem of satisfying skeptics? Ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,.... They simply don't do it.
What for?
If you are skeptical and they can't satisfy your expectation that such claims be substantiated, they don't deserve your business even if the thing works. Oh, my God...
......Now anyone familiar with the electric fields produced by the human heart and how they might be detected without physical contact to a human body can quickly figure out that such a claim is malarkey, but most folks don't have that particular kind of knowledge. You don't know what you're saying. If some acupuncture meridian points such those of pericardium, frontal and kidneys are short circuited by a wire, all the body looses the response for dowsing and also there's a phase imbalance. This shows the human body is a quantum complex system much, much deeper than you might think.
1. The photos and movies show what is obviously a pivoted pointer designed to be held in the hand. What a coincidence that it looks like a classic dowsing rod! What is a classic dowsing rod?
In order to substantiate your claim, define dowsing and dowsing rod.
PS#3: if someday there's a non-scam handheld long range locating device for finding valuables, persons, drugs, or weapons, a lot of us would like to hear about it. As you may know, H3Tec is planing an event in december for their devices.
So, if you are serious about knowing the truth whatever that might be, why don't you show up and gather elements for your 'proof'?
Or you will play like some mambo boys here who whine that no LRL manufacturer is willing to demonstrate their products so they could know about it..? Duhh...

I suggest that next time you decide to write an 'essay' about something, study and research the object you will be writing about as much as you can. Otherwise you will come up with a lame and incorrect aproach causing to derail the thesis.
I'm sorry.
Best regards.

[Art3811]

In physics, resonance is the tendency of a system (usually a linear system) to oscillate at larger amplitude at some frequencies than at others. These are known as the system's resonant frequencies (or resonance frequencies). At these frequencies, even small periodic driving forces can produce large amplitude oscillations.
To prove that objects emit energy or a signal is simple. Use a quart jar. Take some liquid rubber and dab it onto the center of the lid. Pull it away from the lid to create a thin string that looks like the strand of a spider web. This is the hardest part of the test. Attach a 1/2 inch Alum foil disk to the rubber strand. Screw the lid on the jar.

Place a protractor on the table with the 90 degree mark pointing to north. Set the jar on the protractor and alien the disk in a north south direction. Place a gold nugget beside the jar on the 0 degree mark of the protractor and wait for the disk to turn. Now try placing other objects by the jar one at a time. I found that a slice of onion gave off the strongest signal of anything that I tried.

What turned the disk? I can only conclude that objects emit energy.....
https://www.excelsior.edu/Excelsior_College/Criminal_Justice_Training_Assessment/Directory_of_CJTA_Credit_Recommendations/CJTA_Credit_Recommendations_TX/Texas%20Department%20of%20Public%20Safety.pdf (https://www.excelsior.edu/Excelsior_College/Criminal_Justice_Training_Assessment/Directory_of_CJTA_Credit_Recommendations/CJTA_Credit_Recommendations_TX/Texas%20Department%20of%20Public%20Safety.pdf)
http://www.thepowerblog.com/7-qualities-of-a-highly-persuasive-person/ (http://www.thepowerblog.com/7-qualities-of-a-highly-persuasive-person/)
http://www.psiuk.co.uk/35928.html?*session*id*key*=*session*id*val* (http://www.psiuk.co.uk/35928.html?*session*id*key*=*session*id*val*)
http://www.audible.com/adbl/site/products/ProductDetail.jsp?BV_SessionID=@@@@0020558831.1273 590415@@@@&BV_EngineID=ccchadekghglikgcefecekjdffidflg.0&productID=BK_VERI_000001 (http://www.audible.com/adbl/site/products/ProductDetail.jsp?BV_SessionID=@@@@0020558831.1273 590415@@@@&BV_EngineID=ccchadekghglikgcefecekjdffidflg.0&productID=BK_VERI_000001)
http://www.i-t-s.co.uk/ideo_motor_response.html (http://www.i-t-s.co.uk/ideo_motor_response.html)

[J_Player]

You are the ones that are saying that the H3Tec is aU Dowsing Rod…Do you know anything about Dowsing except for the fact that you can not Dowse? Can you tell us why you claim that all LRL’s are just Dowsing rod?
... Just some more questions for you to duck and dodge…ArtUmmmm... It seems you are misquoting people again. Nobody said "all LRL’s are just Dowsing rod", except you when you misquoted Qiaozhi.
The consensus among Geotech members who have actually seen the H3Tec us that it is a dowsing rod.
Tim Williams the "LRL Man" also considers the H3Tec to be a dowsing rod. Tim was at the Texas Treasure Show with Carl when they both took a look and recognized the H3tec to be a dowsing rod.
http://www.geotech1.com/forums/showpost.php?p=87877&postcount=63
http://www.geotech1.com/forums/showpost.php?p=87930&postcount=80

Tim personally inspected H3Tec equipment, and If you are not aware, he sells dowsing rods and other apparatus that is used for dowsing and LRLs as well as some conventional treasure hunting technology.
Tim Williams -- the "LRL Man" says it is a dowsing rod?
If anyone should know what a dowsing rod is, I would expect Tim to know.



…If your theories are right could you explain to the rest of us how come these devices are so good at locating gold and other minerals?....ArtUmmmm Why not forget the theories for the moment, and look at some historical facts:

During the Texas Treasure Show the factory reps were demonstrating the H3Tec finding a silver coin in the field. Carl walked past the area where they were demonstrating the H3Tec that was set for silver while he was carrying a 10 oz silver bar. According to Carl, he made sure they were scanning in his direction, but they had no idea he had a silver bar in front of their silver detector. http://www.geotech1.com/forums/showpost.php?p=87407&postcount=1
It seems to me this is an example where the H3Tec is not so good at locating silver.

Tim Williams, the "LRL Man" was also there during the H3Tec live demonstrations. He hid some silver coins for the H3Tec demonstrators to locate. He reported: "If the unit was truly all electronic sensing the 2 people that were testing the units would have had no problem detecting the silver I hid. That was not the case". See here: http://www.geotech1.com/forums/showpost.php?p=87838&postcount=55

We read how both Carl and Tim saw the H3Tec fail during the public factory demonstrations. But Carl and Tim Williams are not the only people saying the H3Tec doesn't work.
H3Tec gained worldwide notoriety when it became listed among other fraudulent "dowsing rod" style locators being being investigated by people who want to put a stop to fake bomb detector sales.
See here: http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/859-received-from-a-thai-correspondent.html
And here: http://sniffexquestions.blogspot.com/
And here: http://www.linkedpk.com/vidfeeder_view.php?id=riGMVrZmJII
And here: http://www.pso-world.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2494077

Etc, etc. etc...
The facts show the H3Tec failed during the factory demonstrations. Maybe Rudy's theories are correct after all?


Did you find an answer to your question of why Qiaozhi claims the H3Tec is a dowsing rod?

Best wishes,
J_P

[J_Player]

Hello Dave,

Your definition posted is not accurate and it's incomplete. It's not accurate when it states 'some use two, one in each hand'. Wrong. [Bla Bla Bla.... ]
BS#1 [Bla Bla Bla.... ]
BS#2 [Bla Bla Bla.... ]
BS#3 [Bla Bla Bla.... ]
BS#4 [Bla Bla Bla.... ]
See BS#1 [Bla Bla Bla....] above.

[Bla Bla Bla.... ]
[Bla Bla Bla.... ]
[Bla Bla Bla.... ]
[Bla Bla Bla.... ]

[Bla Bla Bla....]..?

Duhh...

I suggest [Bla Bla Bla....]

I'm sorry.
Best regards.(shortened to conserve page space)

My, my... Dr. Hung seems quite disturbed by Dave's article about the H3Tec.... :rolleyes:

Best wishes,
J_P

[Dave J.]

a bit of confusion, Player: Hung was replying to my Advertising post, but his reply came after the bedtime story which I presume he hadn't seen.

--Dave J.

[Carl-NC]

You guys keep claiming that you are on the internet to keep people from buying these devices…How could your failure to answer simple questions keep people from investigating the subject more?

Sorry, Art, my only goal is to provide information. Folks can make up their own mind. I could tell you the truth about what I found with the H3 device, but I don't think you would find the truth nearly as fascinating as a pack of lies. In any case, you're not inclined to believe anything I say, so I'm not inclined to waste my time.

Tellyawhat, since you're precisely the kind of person Chuck is looking for in a customer, I strongly urge you to buy an H3 device. Make sure you get the latest Mod-5 Turbo model, and get the 5+ mile version. Wouldn't want you limited to a mere mile or 2. Then hopefully you'll go back to TNet, and tell those darn skeptics what fools they are for not owning the latest el-ar-el.

Now, if my goal in life is to keep people from buying these devices, would I recommend that you buy one?

P.S. -- I also recommend Hung buy one. How bout that, Chuck? I'm send you two Perfect Customers! They have a huge appetite, feed them well.

[J_Player]

a bit of confusion, Player: Hung was replying to my Advertising post, but his reply came after the bedtime story which I presume he hadn't seen.

--Dave J.Yes, I caught that.
But he will see it soon, maybe before bedtime.... :rolleyes:

Best wishes,
J_P

[hung]

P.S. -- I also recommend Hung buy one. How bout that, Chuck? I'm send you two Perfect Customers! They have a huge appetite, feed them well.


I don't need to buy anything.
I have my own working stuff already. Some that I bought and some that I buid but don't sell it. I'm not a salesman.

Tell ya what.
Keep using your MD junk to find coins at the beach.
We'll remain using our stuff to treasure hunting.
How's that?
Is it too hard for you to accept this simple fact in life or you will need some more therapy sessions?

Meanwhile... Have fun with the H3tec guys.
Thanks to you, they should expect soon a boost in sales. The same thing RT experienced in all these years. Skeptics are a great promotion tool.
And...
Life goes on.

[J_Player]

... Have fun with the H3tec guys.
Thanks to you, they should expect soon a boost in sales. Hmmmm....
A boost in sales?
Really?

Is this why the owners of H3Tec are sending email demands to Carl to remove all of the H3Tec stuff from his forum? :rolleyes:
Maybe the alleged boost in sales will solve the poverty problem for their California rep, so he can afford to attend their big event in December.
Maybe the owner will become rich enough to hire an attorney...


Best wishes,
J_P

[hung]

a bit of confusion, Player: Hung was replying to my Advertising post, but his reply came after the bedtime story which I presume he hadn't seen.

--Dave J.

As apparently you can not define the terms I point, then I assume you do not know what they mean.
Thus everything you wrote falls apart and it's just 'non sequitur'.

I agree, maybe it could become a bed time story, but it would need another plot so that it prevents the reader from falling asleep before the final part.

[hung]

I see TNET forum is up again.
And Judy already left a warm message to SWR.:lol:

I will eventually return for some more scientific discussions. This is my favorite food.

Let's go Art, the last to leave, please don't forget to turn the lights off.

[J_Player]

H3Tec says they work by the principle of "nano-ionic resonance".
Let's see what "nano-ionic resonance" brings us from google. There are not a lot of entries so it should be easy ...

Prime minister of Thailand warns against "magic wands" killing people instead of detecting bombs. The GT-200 and other models are said to work on the principal of ‘magnetic molecular resonance’ or ‘nano ionic resonance’ and or ‘dia/para magnetism’.
http://www.andrew-drummond.com/2010/01/04/british-magic-wands-accused-of-killing-people-in-south-thailand/

Blog site warns about H3Tec and others who market fake explosive detectors:
http://sniffexquestions.blogspot.com/2009/11/will-h3-tec-be-next-to-trick-military.html

First place scum of the minute award for H3Tec:
http://www.skepdic.com/news/newsletter103.html

Win a $159.99 Sedu Revolution Nano Ionic Tourmaline Flat Iron! ...nano-ionic beauty appliances :shocked:???
http://www.flathairstraightener.com/nano-ionic/

Some guy in "The Dead Horse forum" ran across H3Tec advertising and responds "What a load of horse$hit buzzword slaptogether to confuse the rubes...":
http://www.pso-world.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2494040

Then, at the H3Tec website we find a video that explains their idea of "nano-ionic resonance":
http://www.h3tec.com/H3promo.html

According to the H3Tec video, nano ionic resonance works by measuring the spin rate by using the positively and negatively charged ions in an atom called cations and anions, this new device can literraly lock onto elements or combinations of elements called compounds. This has been called Nano Ionic Resonance, or NIR by H3Tec, and is what makes the device tick.

Each unit is powered by two 9 volt batteries that will run the device for up to eight hours.
To locate an element, a software interface is first used to upload that element's data, say gold to the H3Tec detector. The detector is powered on and its range is set to define the grid to be scanned. Immediately the detector begins scanning for gold. If gold is within the defined detection grid, the gold element itself is physically excited and energized by the H3Tec signal. There is a shifting of the atom, and a moment of angular offset. The atom starts making unique detectable noise that the H3Tec can listen to. The H3Tec then closes its listening circuit and locks onto the targeted element of gold. NIR technology doesn't rely on radio waves for transmission. Instead, it uses the magnetic field naturally supplied by the earth. As a result, the H3Tec detector can penetrate earth, metals, plastics, and water to locate any element or compounded elements found on the periodic table. The current device will detect targets up to ten miles away.

So we see H3Tec is not talking about conventional magnetic resonance or resonance related to recent optical developments with nano particles. In fact, their representation of nano-ionic resonance is not consistent with H3Tec's forum post which claims the device works by detecting isotopes of the element. http://www.geotech1.com/forums/showpost.php?p=87892&postcount=70

If you read his statement, you will see he is saying silver with isotope 107 cannot be detected if your H3Tec is set to detect silver 109. (ie: Carl's silver bar that they couldn't detect had isotope 107... no wonder they couldn't detect it... they were set to isotope 109!
Are we really that stupid?
It is easy to find that all silver on earth has 51.839% Ag107 and 48.161% Ag109 regardless of what it is alloyed with, or what manufacturing process it has been through, or what it is compounded with. The only exceptions are a few exotic silver isotopes that only exist for extremely short periods in a laboratory before they decay into cadmium or lead. We see this "isotope excuse" has no truth to it, or if it did, then everything scientists learned about silver isotopes is completely wrong. It would mean that Carl's silver bar has no Ag107 in it instead of the same amount as silver coins have!

So much for the fake excuse about isotope deficiency...
But wait.... How is it that the principle of operation changed from isotope recognition to "nano-ionic resonance"?
Is this a newer buzz word that sounds cooler than isotope detection?
Maybe they borrowed it from the Geotech forum... (ionic detection, MFD, ionic resonance, etc.), and added nano to make it sound more high tech?

We can see from their explanation, they are not talking about using a mega-gauss coil in the same manner than an MRI machine works. But it appears Rudy is correct... it takes more than two 9-volt batteries to cause a perterbation of atoms, especially at a distance from the apparatus that is (allegedly) causing the perterbation. To get an idea, look at what kind of power a proton percession magnetometer uses... and take note that the atoms that are being preterbed are contained within the appartus. Could it possibly work if the medium being preterbed was a few feet away from the magnetometer, or a mile?

Not with a pair of 9-volt batteries designed to last 8 hours it couldn't! Two 9 volt batteries running 8 hours couldn't even maintain the strength of the earth's magnetic field, and the magnetic field of the earth is no where near strong enough... Rudy is correct.

But let's suppose there is some mysterious science we don't know about that causes the H3Tec to work as advertised. If this were true, then somebody would be able to demonstrate it working. We would not hear reports from Carl and Tim Williams that it failed to find a silver bar and coins during the factory demonstration. We wouldn't hear reports that H3Tec customers are sending their units to Carl for performance evaluation if they really did what they are advertised to do.
And we would see that they can pass the same test that a toy metal detector can pass to determine which of 10 pieces of plywood a silver coin is hidden under.

Can the H3Tec do that?
Can anyone demonstrate it finding which piece of plywood Carl hides a silver dollar under?
Are you ready to send your $10,000+ for an H3Tec locator?

Best wishes,
J_P

[hung]

Before I leave...

I now see you have a big problem in understanding very simple things right.
Please, do yourself a favor an read this here at least ten times and understand it once and for all. Your intelect will thank you very much for this.
Immediately the detector begins scanning for gold. If gold is within the defined detection grid, the gold element itself is physically excited and energized by the H3Tec signal. There is a shifting of the atom, and a moment of angular offset. The atom starts making unique detectable noise that the H3Tec can listen to. The H3Tec then closes its listening circuit and locks onto the targeted element of gold. NIR technology doesn't rely on radio waves for transmission. Instead, it uses the magnetic field naturally supplied by the earth.
Before...
you state such:

But it appears Rudy is correct... it takes more than two 9-volt batteries to cause a perterbation of atoms, especially at a distance from the apparatus that is (allegedly) causing the perterbation. To get an idea, look at what kind of power a proton percession magnetometer uses... and take note that the atoms that are being preterbed are contained within the appartus. Could it possibly work if the medium being preterbed was a few feet away from the magnetometer, or a mile?

Not with a pair of 9-volt batteries designed to last 8 hours it couldn't! Two 9 volt batteries running 8 hours couldn't even maintain the strength of the earth's magnetic field, and the magnetic field of the earth is no where near strong enough...
Best wishes,
J_PWho told you the batteries are used to do the things you claim above??
They are just there to feed the components Einstein!

In my post to Dave, I talk about how I think these kind of detection happens.
But you choose to ignore it. Very well. It's your choice.

You might remain discussing how your microwave oven does not work as long as you wish, until the day you find out that it's no microwave oven. It's a TV.

Bye for now.

[pebe]

Before I leave...

I now see you have a big problem in understanding very simple things right.
Please, do yourself a favor an read this here at least ten times and understand it once and for all. Your intelect will thank you very much for this.

Before...
you state such:

Who told you the batteries are used to do the things you claim above??
They are just there to feed the components Einstein!

In my post to Dave, I talk about how I think these kind of detection happens.
But you choose to ignore it. Very well. It's your choice.

You might remain discussing how your microwave oven does not work as long as you wish, until the day you find out that it's no microwave oven. It's a TV.

Bye for now.Gaud...! What nebulous waffle! You really should learn the art of one-way communication.

[Qiaozhi]

I have a friend who always states he recovered already 10 times the value he paid in his (expensive) LRL.
This is hearsay and does not constitute evidence.

And there are also the ones who never found anything valuable. I know some of them. So it's just a matter of relativity.
I very much doubt that Einstein would agree with you on that one. :razz:

In order to fully explain the reasons a swivel LRL needs to be held, I would have to disclose information of my own research, which I choose not to do at this time.
Oh ... go on! It would be good for a laugh. :lol:

But it suffices to say that there are interaction of charges between air, body and target to build up induction and resonance based on the frequencies used. The swivel LRL user often needs to be in movement in order to create electrostatic charges. Also, the human body is very sensitive to tiny currents in the ground when using rods. They can sense about 20mA to a few microamperes. Since the body is also very sensitive to small magnetic fields (Rocard calculated about 0.3mOe/m), swivel LRLs and MFD types act as increasing amplifiers with the correspondent frequencies. A quantum system is formed working similar, but not exactly as a Aharonov-Bohm magnetic dipole to sense magnetic anomalies. Something that a regular electronic device would never be able to do because of noise. However it's possible to build a special electronic device for this function.
You are completely lost in your own brand of pseudo-science. I know you like to use phrases such as "Aharonov-Bohm magnetic dipole", and other scientific sounding terms, that you no doubt borrowed from the likes of Tom Bearden, but you wouldn't recognise a magnetic dipole if you tripped over it.

You don't know what you're saying. If some acupuncture meridian points such those of pericardium, frontal and kidneys are short circuited by a wire, all the body looses the response for dowsing and also there's a phase imbalance. This shows the human body is a quantum complex system much, much deeper than you might think.
Now it's my turn to say it ... OMG! :eek:
Even the general concepts behind quantum mechanics is totally beyond your grasp, as you have demonstrated many times in your posts. How you could possibly make a connection between the H3Tec dowsing contraption, acpuncture and QM just beggars belief

As you may know, H3Tec is planing an event in december for their devices. So, if you are serious about knowing the truth whatever that might be, why don't you show up and gather elements for your 'proof'?
Do you think the results will be different than on previous occasions? Have they produced a new model that is totally electronic and does not contain a swinging arm (dowsing rod)? If so, please supply details.

I suggest that next time you decide to write an 'essay' about something, study and research the object you will be writing about as much as you can. Otherwise you will come up with a lame and incorrect aproach causing to derail the thesis.
No-one wants to follow your example. :razz:

I notice that the hardware probem on the Treasurenet forums is now resolved. After some debugging it will soon be fully operationsl. So thanks for popping in Hung. Goodbye! :nono:

[J_Player]

Before I leave...

I now see you have a big problem in understanding very simple things right.
Please, do yourself a favor an read this here at least ten times and understand it once and for all. Your intelect will thank you very much for this.

Before...
you state such:
But it appears Rudy is correct... it takes more than two 9-volt batteries to cause a perterbation of atoms, especially at a distance from the apparatus that is (allegedly) causing the perterbation. To get an idea, look at what kind of power a proton percession magnetometer uses... and take note that the atoms that are being preterbed are contained within the appartus. Could it possibly work if the medium being preterbed was a few feet away from the magnetometer, or a mile?

Not with a pair of 9-volt batteries designed to last 8 hours it couldn't! Two 9 volt batteries running 8 hours couldn't even maintain the strength of the earth's magnetic field, and the magnetic field of the earth is no where near strong enough... Who told you the batteries are used to do the things you claim above??
They are just there to feed the components Einstein!

In my post to Dave, I talk about how I think these kind of detection happens.
But you choose to ignore it. Very well. It's your choice.

You might remain discussing how your microwave oven does not work as long as you wish, until the day you find out that it's no microwave oven. It's a TV.

Bye for now.Ummm....
You got it wrong again, Dr. Hung...
H3Tec said their signal excites the gold. Go back and listen to their video... http://www.h3tec.com/H3promo.html

It is just as I posted:
"Each unit is powered by two 9 volt batteries that will run the device for up to eight hours...

...If gold is within the defined detection grid, the gold element itself is physically excited and energized by the H3Tec signal. There is a shifting of the atom, and a moment of angular offset".
Doesn't a shifting and angular offset of a distant atom being excited by the H3Tec signal qualify as perturbation in HungScience?


You may read your bedtime story now before going to sleep.... http://www.geotech1.com/forums/showpost.php?p=119812&postcount=221
It also applies to fake LRL success claimants who deny the words heard on a manufacturer's video.

Best wishes,
J_P

[Dave J.]

Now that you've had time to sleep on it....... was your bedtime story fact or fiction?

--Dave J.

[Rudy]

H3Tec says they work by the principle of "nano-ionic resonance".
Let's see what "nano-ionic resonance" brings us from google. There are not a lot of entries so it should be easy ...

Prime minister of Thailand warns against "magic wands" killing people instead of detecting bombs. The GT-200 and other models are said to work on the principal of ‘magnetic molecular resonance’ or ‘nano ionic resonance’ and or ‘dia/para magnetism’.
http://www.andrew-drummond.com/2010/01/04/british-magic-wands-accused-of-killing-people-in-south-thailand/

Blog site warns about H3Tec and others who market fake explosive detectors:
http://sniffexquestions.blogspot.com/2009/11/will-h3-tec-be-next-to-trick-military.html

First place scum of the minute award for H3Tec:
http://www.skepdic.com/news/newsletter103.html

Win a $159.99 Sedu Revolution Nano Ionic Tourmaline Flat Iron! ...nano-ionic beauty appliances :shocked:???
http://www.flathairstraightener.com/nano-ionic/

Some guy in "The Dead Horse forum" ran across H3Tec advertising and responds "What a load of horse$hit buzzword slaptogether to confuse the rubes...":
http://www.pso-world.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2494040

Then, at the H3Tec website we find a video that explains their idea of "nano-ionic resonance":
http://www.h3tec.com/H3promo.html

According to the H3Tec video, nano ionic resonance works by measuring the spin rate by using the positively and negatively charged ions in an atom called cations and anions, this new device can literraly lock onto elements or combinations of elements called compounds. This has been called Nano Ionic Resonance, or NIR by H3Tec, and is what makes the device tick.

Each unit is powered by two 9 volt batteries that will run the device for up to eight hours.
To locate an element, a software interface is first used to upload that element's data, say gold to the H3Tec detector. The detector is powered on and its range is set to define the grid to be scanned. Immediately the detector begins scanning for gold. If gold is within the defined detection grid, the gold element itself is physically excited and energized by the H3Tec signal. There is a shifting of the atom, and a moment of angular offset. The atom starts making unique detectable noise that the H3Tec can listen to. The H3Tec then closes its listening circuit and locks onto the targeted element of gold. NIR technology doesn't rely on radio waves for transmission. Instead, it uses the magnetic field naturally supplied by the earth. As a result, the H3Tec detector can penetrate earth, metals, plastics, and water to locate any element or compounded elements found on the periodic table. The current device will detect targets up to ten miles away.

So we see H3Tec is not talking about conventional magnetic resonance or resonance related to recent optical developments with nano particles. In fact, their representation of nano-ionic resonance is not consistent with H3Tec's forum post which claims the device works by detecting isotopes of the element. http://www.geotech1.com/forums/showpost.php?p=87892&postcount=70

If you read his statement, you will see he is saying silver with isotope 107 cannot be detected if your H3Tec is set to detect silver 109. (ie: Carl's silver bar that they couldn't detect had isotope 107... no wonder they couldn't detect it... they were set to isotope 109!
Are we really that stupid?
It is easy to find that all silver on earth has 51.839% Ag107 and 48.161% Ag109 regardless of what it is alloyed with, or what manufacturing process it has been through, or what it is compounded with. The only exceptions are a few exotic silver isotopes that only exist for extremely short periods in a laboratory before they decay into cadmium or lead. We see this "isotope excuse" has no truth to it, or if it did, then everything scientists learned about silver isotopes is completely wrong. It would mean that Carl's silver bar has no Ag107 in it instead of the same amount as silver coins have!

So much for the fake excuse about isotope deficiency...
But wait.... How is it that the principle of operation changed from isotope recognition to "nano-ionic resonance"?
Is this a newer buzz word that sounds cooler than isotope detection?
Maybe they borrowed it from the Geotech forum... (ionic detection, MFD, ionic resonance, etc.), and added nano to make it sound more high tech?

We can see from their explanation, they are not talking about using a mega-gauss coil in the same manner than an MRI machine works. But it appears Rudy is correct... it takes more than two 9-volt batteries to cause a perterbation of atoms, especially at a distance from the apparatus that is (allegedly) causing the perterbation. To get an idea, look at what kind of power a proton percession magnetometer uses... and take note that the atoms that are being preterbed are contained within the appartus. Could it possibly work if the medium being preterbed was a few feet away from the magnetometer, or a mile?

Not with a pair of 9-volt batteries designed to last 8 hours it couldn't! Two 9 volt batteries running 8 hours couldn't even maintain the strength of the earth's magnetic field, and the magnetic field of the earth is no where near strong enough... Rudy is correct.

But let's suppose there is some mysterious science we don't know about that causes the H3Tec to work as advertised. If this were true, then somebody would be able to demonstrate it working. We would not hear reports from Carl and Tim Williams that it failed to find a silver bar and coins during the factory demonstration. We wouldn't hear reports that H3Tec customers are sending their units to Carl for performance evaluation if they really did what they are advertised to do.
And we would see that they can pass the same test that a toy metal detector can pass to determine which of 10 pieces of plywood a silver coin is hidden under.

Can the H3Tec do that?
Can anyone demonstrate it finding which piece of plywood Carl hides a silver dollar under?
Are you ready to send your $10,000+ for an H3Tec locator?

Best wishes,
J_P

The H3Tec marketing fluff says it works by the principle of "nano-ionic resonance", but the patent clearly states that it works using NMR. Obviously, both are wrong, The first term is made up , whilst NMR detection can not be achieved by the equipment design.

In fairness to their statement about needing the right isotopes, that is correct. Essentially, in order to exhibit an NMR effect, the nuclei of the atom must have the right combination of protons and neutrons so that it has a net non-zero spin. Different isotopes would have different NMR frequencies (or none at all).

Lastly, the NMR frequency scales linearly with the applied magnetic field. For example, a single proton (ie. hydrogen) has a NMR resonance of 900 MHz at a magnetic field of 21 Teslas, while it would have a frequency in the audio range when subjected only to the earth's magnetic field. As I mentioned in my analysis, the higher the magnetic field is, the better the NMR response in terms of signal energy and sharper resonance response. At earth's field the resonance is very broad and overlaps the response of other atoms with close magnetic moments (ie. loss of discrimination sensitivity) and the signal energy decreases to where it is obliterated by background and instrument noise.

The energy E = hv, where h is Plank's constant and v is the frequency. As you can see, the NMR signal from hydrogen in an earth's field NMR is over 10 million times smaller than if the hydrogen atom was surrounded by a 21 Tesla field.

This loss of signal energy is compounded by the fact that the wavelengths involved at these lower frequencies cannot be effectively radiated, or detected by the small dowsing rod elements used. Also, the low frequencies would not be very directional due to heir long wave fronts, making it impossible for the dowsing rod to really be able to pin point the location, even if the rest of the pseudo science worked, which it doesn't.

This effect is used in Earth's field NMR spectrometers and other instruments, because these instruments are portable and inexpensive, they are often used for teaching and field work. But is is necessary for the sample to be put inside a chamber, to measure the NMR. They can't detect any external NMR. It is simply impossible.

[WM6]

….How do you spell SCAM?

(http://www.geotech1.com/cgi-bin/pages/common/index.pl?page=lrl&file=reward.dat)

Hard, without Nuclear Magnetic Resonance, so I do not spell SCAM at all.

[Fred]

Thank you Fred…
It is a common psychological problem in that insecure people tend to project their personal deficiencies unto another in self defense, they are sure trying to pass theirs lack of knowledge over to you

Now that you know where your are here, can you answer the question?

I don't need to buy anything.
I have my own working stuff already. Some that I bought and some that I buid but don't sell it. I'm not a salesman.
Maybe not exactly you,. but...

Tell ya what.
Keep using your MD junk to find coins at the beach.
We'll remain using our stuff to treasure hunting.
How's that?
Hilarious, even more when you talk like a cowboy.

[Dave J.]

Rudy, why this obsession with facts and all their limitations and even uncertainties, when with a completely undisciplined mind you can make up anything and everything, and it can be anything you want? Facts take work to understand, so why bother? And anyway they're soooo boring. They don't give you what you want, they're so uncooperative! Worse yet, when you allow facts into your world, you lose control over reality, and how can a person possibly live without being in complete control of reality??!!

But not everyone's completely undisciplined mind is equal in creativity. If your creativity is not up to the job of making reality what you've decided it should be, Chuck's creativity will fill in the blanks, you can just use his when your own reaches its limits. He tells us stuff we want to hear, unlike those inconsiderate people who keep throwing facts at us! Y'know, the ones we deride as "skeptics" because they refuse to corroborate our fantasy world.

So Rudy, take a look at Art and Hung. They can have it their way, any time, just by making it up. We're still stuck mucking around with facts, and some of those we ain't quite certain about. How could we possibly not be filled with jealousy at what Art and Hung have achieved in their mastery of life? Screw facts, let's kiss Carl goodbye and go learn mastery of life from gurus Art and Hung!

--Dave J.

Damn, I'm so jealous of those guys!

[Rudy]

Rudy, why this obsession with facts and all their limitations and even uncertainties, when with a completely undisciplined mind you can make up anything and everything, and it can be anything you want? Facts take work to understand, so why bother? And anyway they're soooo boring. They don't give you what you want, they're so uncooperative! Worse yet, when you allow facts into your world, you lose control over reality, and how can a person possibly live without being in complete control of reality??!!

But not everyone's completely undisciplined mind is equal in creativity. If your creativity is not up to the job of making reality what you've decided it should be, Chuck's creativity will fill in the blanks, you can just use his when your own reaches its limits. He tells us stuff we want to hear, unlike those inconsiderate people who keep throwing facts at us! Y'know, the ones we deride as "skeptics" because they refuse to corroborate our fantasy world.

So Rudy, take a look at Art and Hung. They can have it their way, any time, just by making it up. We're still stuck mucking around with facts, and some of those we ain't quite certain about. How could we possibly not be filled with jealousy at what Art and Hung have achieved in their mastery of life? Screw facts, let's kiss Carl goodbye and go learn mastery of life from gurus Art and Hung!

--Dave J.

Damn, I'm so jealous of those guys!

You are right Dave. I see the light now. Facts are ... just facts. :nerd:

My apologies to you and the other forum members.

I think I will take out a second mortgage on my house and buy one of these clever devices and find me some large gold deposit somewhere. :stars:

[J_Player]

The H3Tec marketing fluff says it works by the principle of "nano-ionic resonance", but the patent clearly states that it works using NMR. Obviously, both are wrong, The first term is made up , whilst NMR detection can not be achieved by the equipment design.

In fairness to their statement about needing the right isotopes, that is correct. Essentially, in order to exhibit an NMR effect, the nuclei of the atom must have the right combination of protons and neutrons so that it has a net non-zero spin. Different isotopes would have different NMR frequencies (or none at all).

Lastly, the NMR frequency scales linearly with the applied magnetic field. For example, a single proton (ie. hydrogen) has a NMR resonance of 900 MHz at a magnetic field of 21 Teslas, while it would have a frequency in the audio range when subjected only to the earth's magnetic field. As I mentioned in my analysis, the higher the magnetic field is, the better the NMR response in terms of signal energy and sharper resonance response. At earth's field the resonance is very broad and overlaps the response of other atoms with close magnetic moments (ie. loss of discrimination sensitivity) and the signal energy decreases to where it is obliterated by background and instrument noise.

The energy E = hv, where h is Plank's constant and v is the frequency. As you can see, the NMR signal from hydrogen in an earth's field NMR is over 10 million times smaller than if the hydrogen atom was surrounded by a 21 Tesla field.

This loss of signal energy is compounded by the fact that the wavelengths involved at these lower frequencies cannot be effectively radiated, or detected by the small dowsing rod elements used. Also, the low frequencies would not be very directional due to heir long wave fronts, making it impossible for the dowsing rod to really be able to pin point the location, even if the rest of the pseudo science worked, which it doesn't.

This effect is used in Earth's field NMR spectrometers and other instruments, because these instruments are portable and inexpensive, they are often used for teaching and field work. But is is necessary for the sample to be put inside a chamber, to measure the NMR. They can't detect any external NMR. It is simply impossible.This is correct for nuclear magnetic resonance.

But there are two problems...

1. H3Tec is claiming the silver in Carl's bar does not contain the stable isotope of silver (Ag109) that their machine was set for, so it could not be detected. Is there such a thing as any silver on earth that does not have about half of this isotope, whether in coins, bars, silver plating, or silver compounds?

2. H3Tec is claiming the selected atoms are "excited" within the grid area (up to 10 miles) distant from their machine that is powered by two 9v batteries designed to last for 8 hours while also powering the internal processor and memory. Is this possible for two 9v batteries to broadcast that amount of energy for 8 hours while powering the internal electronics?

Best wishes,
J_P

[Qiaozhi]

This is correct for nuclear magnetic resonance.
Although the patent mentions NMR (Nuclear Magnetic Resonance) the device is claimed to work by NIR (Nano-Ionic Resonance) whatever that is. Which sounds suspiciously similar to Mineoro's theory of operation. The term "NIR" is also shown as a trademark on their website, which (as far as I can ascertain) has never been registered as a trademark.

[hung]

the NMR frequency scales linearly with the applied magnetic field. For example, a single proton (ie. hydrogen) has a NMR resonance of 900 MHz at a magnetic field of 21 Teslas, while it would have a frequency in the audio range when subjected only to the earth's magnetic field. As I mentioned in my analysis, the higher the magnetic field is, the better the NMR response in terms of signal energy and sharper resonance response. At earth's field the resonance is very broad and overlaps the response of other atoms with close magnetic moments (ie. loss of discrimination sensitivity) and the signal energy decreases to where it is obliterated by background and instrument noise.
No. Actually protons do have a better response to longer pulses when they receive weak magnetic field emanations.
Consider the classic NMR aproach done in hospitals where huge magnets are used to a particular purpose. But don't forget that this brute force can well be discarded for the same task employing optical NMR.
Remember, resonance is still resonance under weak or strong magnetic fields.

The energy E = hv, where h is Plank's constant and v is the frequency. As you can see, the NMR signal from hydrogen in an earth's field NMR is over 10 million times smaller than if the hydrogen atom was surrounded by a 21 Tesla field.10,000 times. Not 10 million.
Loss of signal energy is compounded by the fact that the wavelengths involved at these lower frequencies cannot be effectively radiated, or detected by the small dowsing rod elements used. Not only they can but also they should, as they are the fastest and practical mean to input those signals as I already posted, based on research done. They can be much more selective to noise in weak fields and currents than ordinary electronic 'parafernalia'.
Also, the low frequencies would not be very directional due to heir long wave fronts, making it impossible for the dowsing rod to really be able to pin point the location, even if the rest of the pseudo science worked, which it doesn't. Again, the rods or needles, etc, are currently the most qualified sensors to deal with those low intensity fields and extreme long wavelenghts. At this very moment, an european apparatus with a giant loop and based on a russian model is employing the NMR principle but using earth's own magnetic fields and applying pulses of different lengths to receive responses from water molecules well bellow the underground.
Only problem is the noise they can still not get rid of as the field response decreases in amplitude when bellow 40 meters. This just does not happen with a 'dowsing rod' for the reasons I explained in my post to Dave. But it's going in the right direction.
This effect is used in Earth's field NMR spectrometers and other instruments, because these instruments are portable and inexpensive, they are often used for teaching and field work. But is is necessary for the sample to be put inside a chamber, to measure the NMR. They can't detect any external NMR. It is simply impossible. The problem in what you post above is the misconcept of an electron as particle. I already talked about this here. By simply implying the photonic concept, we prove the electron is a wave and not a particle. If it was a particle its speed around the nucleous would be around 268 times the speed of light which is impossible. There is no particle and no quantum leap. The electron simply exists in the atom as a standing wave and as a wave it presents variable wavelength. And thus, everything changes and whole interactions of fields are natural.

[Rudy]

This is correct for nuclear magnetic resonance.

But there are two problems...

1. H3Tec is claiming the silver in Carl's bar does not contain the stable isotope of silver (Ag109) that their machine was set for, so it could not be detected. Is there such a thing as any silver on earth that does not have about half of this isotope, whether in coins, bars, silver plating, or silver compounds?


Well, since the H3Tec folks are truthful and ethical folks, we could only conclude that Carl spent a fortune in centrifuging several metric tons of silver atoms, to accumulate enough of the rare isotope to smelt a silver bar with. How else could the instrument have been fooled? :razz:


2. H3Tec is claiming the selected atoms are "excited" within the grid area (up to 10 miles) distant from their machine that is powered by two 9v batteries designed to last for 8 hours while also powering the internal processor and memory. Is this possible for two 9v batteries to broadcast that amount of energy for 8 hours while powering the internal electronics?

Best wishes,
J_P

No, specially when the antenna (aka dowsing rod) is cut the wrong wavelength and pointed in the direction which provides the target the least amount of energy. Also, consider that the reflected signal energy density, small to begin with, is sent out by the target isotropically and the collecting antenna (aka dowsing rod) subtends an infinitesimally small arc of a sphere 10 mile in radius and the least sensitive part of the antenna is pointed in the direction of the signal. :nono:

Nope the 9 V batteries won't do it. The machine needs to be powered by a fuel cell fed by high octane organic bovine fertilizer in order to function. :D

[Qiaozhi]

No. Actually protons do have a better response to longer pulses when they receive weak magnetic field emanations.
Consider the classic NMR aproach done in hospitals where huge magnets are used to a particular purpose. But don't forget that this brute force can well be discarded for the same task employing optical NMR.
Remember, resonance is still resonance under weak or strong magnetic fields.
10,000 times. Not 10 million. Not only they can but also they should, as they are the fastest and practical mean to input those signals as I already posted, based on research done. They can be much more selective to noise in weak fields and currents than ordinary electronic 'parafernalia'.
Again, the rods or needles, etc, are currently the most qualified sensors to deal with those low intensity fields and extreme long wavelenghts. At this very moment, an european apparatus with a giant loop and based on a russian model is employing the NMR principle but using earth's own magnetic fields and applying pulses of different lengths to receive responses from water molecules well bellow the underground.
Only problem is the noise they can still not get rid of as the field response decreases in amplitude when bellow 40 meters. This just does not happen with a 'dowsing rod' for the reasons I explained in my post to Dave. But it's going in the right direction.
The problem in what you post above is the misconcept of an electron as particle. I already talked about this here. By simply implying the photonic concept, we prove the electron is a wave and not a particle. If it was a particle its speed around the nucleous would be around 268 times the speed of light which is impossible. There is no particle and no quantum leap. The electron simply exists in the atom as a standing wave and as a wave it presents variable wavelength. And thus, everything changes and whole interactions of fields are natural.
Sometimes you become almost lucid. It's as if someone else is posting on your behalf. :rolleyes:
Either that, or the cut-and-paste method is working well.

[Rudy]

No. Actually protons do have a better response to longer pulses when they receive weak magnetic field emanations.
Consider the classic NMR aproach done in hospitals where huge magnets are used to a particular purpose. But don't forget that this brute force can well be discarded for the same task employing optical NMR.

Your assertion of proton response to pulse width is immaterial. What pulse width? The patent discusses what is known as continuous NMR and not Fourier spectrum or pulsed NMR. Yes, in a pulsed NMR under earth sized magnetic field, the pulse width needs to be wide enough to have a fundamental and or low harmonics in the range of the NMR frequency at the low magnetic field. But the patent discusses continuous NMR, were an RF signal is used, as in a sinusoid, not a pulse. This is further elaborated in the patent where building the circuitry with OP amps and band-pass filters are used in the preferrred embodiment.

Are you saying the dowsing rod is really a fiber optic device? :lol::lol::lol:


Remember, resonance is still resonance under weak or strong magnetic fields.

Yes it is. As long as you know about resonance, can you explain what "Q" is in relation to resonance?


10,000 times. Not 10 million. Not only they can but also they should, as they are the fastest and practical mean to input those signals as I already posted, based on research done. They can be much more selective to noise in weak fields and currents than ordinary electronic 'parafernalia'.

The NMR frequency goes from 900,000,000 Hertz at 21 Teslas, to audio range, say 20,000 Hz at earth's field. Since the photon energy is given by its frequency, I'll let you divide the two numbers yourself.


The problem in what you post above is the misconcept of an electron as particle. I already talked about this here. By simply implying the photonic concept, we prove the electron is a wave and not a particle. If it was a particle its speed around the nucleous would be around 268 times the speed of light which is impossible. There is no particle and no quantum leap. The electron simply exists in the atom as a standing wave and as a wave it presents variable wavelength. And thus, everything changes and whole interactions of fields are natural.

I never mentioned electrons. I was discussing Nuclear Magnetic Resonance (Keyword underlined), as in nuclei. Nothing to do with electrons. Just the magnetic dipole of the nucleus of the atoms.

I don't really care (in the context of the H3Tec) how fast electrons move around the nucleus, nor wether you to take into consideration their relativistic mass as they orbit. It has nothing to do with the discussion.

If you want to discuss the particle/wave duality of matter, a subject dear to my heart, maybe you should start a new thread in the appropriate board?

[Rudy]

Although the patent mentions NMR (Nuclear Magnetic Resonance) the device is claimed to work by NIR (Nano-Ionic Resonance) whatever that is. Which sounds suspiciously similar to Mineoro's theory of operation. The term "NIR" is also shown as a trademark on their website, which (as far as I can ascertain) has never been registered as a trademark.

Me thinks that since Nuclear Magnetic Resonance was a descriptive phrase already in the public domain, they needed to find an alternative jazzy phrase that they could trademark to create product differentiation in the mind of the gullible. That is, "Why is my expensive dowsing rod different than the other expensive dowsing rods?" Note that saying "My expensive dowsing rod doesn't work any better than the other expensive dowsing rods in the market." Is not conducive to sales.

™ doesn't need to be registered with the patent & trademark office. Only ® has to be registered with them.

[hung]

'Nothing to do with electrons'... Really?? He,he,he,..
Next you will also say the outdated standard model will explain everything without even considering torsion, right?

I quit.:lol:
Some of us are like animals that were kept in captivity almost the whole life, and then when the gate is open, they don't know what to do.:lol:


PS. Meanwhile over TNET Ike has put Carl's back against the wall with a VERY interesting challenge. Much more than Carl's own BS.
Let's see how it develops.

Bye Geoskepthic.

[Rudy]

'Nothing to do with electrons'... Really?? He,he,he,..
Next you will also say the outdated standard model will explain everything without even considering torsion, right?

I quit.:lol:
Some of us are like animals that were kept in captivity almost the whole life, and then when the gate is open, they don't know what to do.:lol:


PS. Meanwhile over TNET Ike has put Carl's back against the wall with a VERY interesting challenge. Much more than Carl's own BS.
Let's see how it develops.

Bye Geoskepthic.

You keep throwing mud at the wall, hoping something will stick. Well, it isn't sticking. Maybe it is because of that new neutrino the standard model never predicted? :lol:

[Qiaozhi]

PS. Meanwhile over TNET Ike has put Carl's back against the wall with a VERY interesting challenge. Much more than Carl's own BS.
Let's see how it develops.

Bye Geoskepthic.
Well ... I've just been over to TNET to take a look at Carl getting his "back against the wall".
What an absolute zoo it is over there! :lol: After about 5 to 10 minutes I couldn't stand it anymore. I've never seem so much BS from so many dowsing and LRL bigots.
Carl posted a list of companies that do not sell LRLs, and it totally confused the resident female (and the funny farm boys). For some reason they decided the list contained all the companies that do sell LRLs. Considering the fact that none of the usual suspects were in the list, including H3Tec (got to include that to stay on topic ;)) they were all totally bemused and started running around like headless chickens.
In all the BS posts I read there was no evidence that Carl was up against the wall, only an enormous amount of mutual back slapping and psuedo-scientific claptrap. :eek:

[Art3811]

A few months ago I bought some orthopedic shoes. I went out to the car in the rain and drove off. The first stop sign my foot slipped on the brake pedal. This happened to me a few times before I reached home. These shoes have a hard plastic area in the arch. So if I wanted to wear these comfortable shoes I would have to change how I braked my car. I found that I would have to move my heel about one inch backward and my whole foot about another 3 inches to the left. I stared to think about it and try to move my foot to the exact spot where I wanted it. I have been practicing this for two months and over time I did not have to think much about doing it.
Today a car slide though a stop sign in the snow and I had to hit the brakes fast..No thinking just a natural reaction. Gentlemen..that action was a “Trained Ideomotor” Response….Art

[Rudy]

Carl posted a list of companies that do not sell LRLs, and it totally confused the resident female (and the funny farm boys).

Great idea Qiaozhi. We need a resident female, specially a pretty one with brains. Even if she works at H3Tec (got to include that to stay on topic ;)). Someone like ... :rolleyes:

http://hideyourarms.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/haduken_female_product2-480x393.jpg
http://www.citizenofthemonth.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/curly_whoorl.jpg
http://popculturenerd.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/annafaris.jpg

[Kevco]

When I see these pseudo-scientific terms to explain dowsing, it seems so much like trying to make up new reasons, to replace the old reasons that got debunked. Electromagnetics (EM), electrons, neutrinos, etc - everything that most dowsers don't understand, but throw those terms around :)

When I hear about EM as the reason, someone could shield the targets within a mu-metal (magnetic) shield, and an electrostatic field shield, to guarantee it's not EM as the cause. But EM is not the explanation for it.

As I posted elsewhere here, I *did* get into dowsing for a short time. But here's the kicker that caused me to drop the whole thing.... I had heard about map dowsing, which I had done. I also heard about "mentally" dowsing for individual people, using maps. Well I tried it, followed their route across the city (a large metro area), and went downstairs to the door, when I saw they were just two blocks from my house. They drove up in seconds. When he got to the door, I confirmed which of the many possible routes he could have taken, and he took the same route I followed him on the map. Although he could have taken the short route from work, he took a longer route, over different bridges, and through different suburbs. But how can this be based on true laws of physics? NO! Why can I track one person, in a community of 1/2 million people? It's not a physical law causing it.

I had hoped it was some undiscovered physical law, as my major was physics - but finding specific humans fails that test. And for other reasons (more related to "religion"), I dropped it. It seemed very occultic, so I dropped it cold turkey - ~25 years ago. But at this point, I will end this post, so not to drag religion into it.

[Qiaozhi]

When I see these pseudo-scientific terms to explain dowsing, it seems so much like trying to make up new reasons, to replace the old reasons that got debunked. Electromagnetics (EM), electrons, neutrinos, etc - everything that most dowsers don't understand, but throw those terms around :)

When I hear about EM as the reason, someone could shield the targets within a mu-metal (magnetic) shield, and an electrostatic field shield, to guarantee it's not EM as the cause. But EM is not the explanation for it.

As I posted elsewhere here, I *did* get into dowsing for a short time. But here's the kicker that caused me to drop the whole thing.... I had heard about map dowsing, which I had done. I also heard about "mentally" dowsing for individual people, using maps. Well I tried it, followed their route across the city (a large metro area), and went downstairs to the door, when I saw they were just two blocks from my house. They drove up in seconds. When he got to the door, I confirmed which of the many possible routes he could have taken, and he took the same route I followed him on the map. Although he could have taken the short route from work, he took a longer route, over different bridges, and through different suburbs. But how can this be based on true laws of physics? NO! Why can I track one person, in a community of 1/2 million people? It's not a physical law causing it.

I had hoped it was some undiscovered physical law, as my major was physics - but finding specific humans fails that test. And for other reasons (more related to "religion"), I dropped it. It seemed very occultic, so I dropped it cold turkey - ~25 years ago. But at this point, I will end this post, so not to drag religion into it.
Well, I have to say, you did the right thing.

Although Hung would never believe it [what a skeptic :razz:] all confirmed skeptics have actually tried dowsing for themselves. That is of course how they came to the conclusion that it cannot be used to locate anything except gravity or (in the case of dowsing rod salesmen) the contents of other people's wallets. But it must be emphasized that their use in the latter context does not involve the ideomotor effect. The people who remain beguiled by the ideomotor effect, and who are compelled to promote this medieval practice, lack any real scientific background. Some are self-confessed hillbillys with nothing more than a limited education, whereas others are pseudo-scientists who are impressed by scientific sounding words such as "Aharanov-Bohm magnetic dipole".

The same goes for ouija boards. These are fascinating items, and can scare the hell out of you if you don't understand the ideomotor effect. This (like the popular Victorian parlour trick of table tipping) is a dramatic way to experience this strange phenomenon. But once you've played around with the ouija board for a while it soon becomes clear that questions are only answered correctly if at least one person in the group knows the answer. A good test is to ask a question that only someone outside the group knows. The ouija board will get the answer wrong. Then include this person in the group, and the correct answer is revealed. The ouija board has absolutely nothing to do with contacting the spirit world, but everything to do with the ideomotor effect. It's a really eerie experience, but perfectly explainable by science. If you ask the question, "What are next week's lottery numbers?", then it doesn't matter who is in the group. There is no treasure to be discovered with a ouija board, and the same goes for a dowsing rod (or even the H3Tec device - to stay on topic). :D

To Hung - don't think that the skeptics have dismissed your nonsense ideas out of hand. They've all been there, seen it, and done it. Then dismissed it as nonsense.

:) "WHAT DOESN'T WORK, CANNOT BE MADE TO WORK" :)

[J_Player]

A few months ago I bought some orthopedic shoes. I went out to the car in the rain and drove off. The first stop sign my foot slipped on the brake pedal. This happened to me a few times before I reached home. These shoes have a hard plastic area in the arch. So if I wanted to wear these comfortable shoes I would have to change how I braked my car. I found that I would have to move my heel about one inch backward and my whole foot about another 3 inches to the left. I stared to think about it and try to move my foot to the exact spot where I wanted it. I have been practicing this for two months and over time I did not have to think much about doing it. [/FONT]
Today a car slide though a stop sign in the snow and I had to hit the brakes fast..No thinking just a natural reaction. Gentlemen..that action was a “Trained Ideomotor” Response….ArtUmmmm....
Got any H3Tec news Art?

Best wishes,
J_P

[J_Player]

Well ... I've just been over to TNET to take a look at Carl getting his "back against the wall".
What an absolute zoo it is over there! :lol: After about 5 to 10 minutes I couldn't stand it anymore. I've never seem so much BS from so many dowsing and LRL bigots.
Carl posted a list of companies that do not sell LRLs, and it totally confused the resident female (and the funny farm boys). For some reason they decided the list contained all the companies that do sell LRLs. Considering the fact that none of the usual suspects were in the list, including H3Tec (got to include that to stay on topic ;)) they were all totally bemused and started running around like headless chickens.
In all the BS posts I read there was no evidence that Carl was up against the wall, only an enormous amount of mutual back slapping and psuedo-scientific claptrap. :eek:Hmmmm... Is Tnet their secret bunker?
If so, it appears they debunkered and came here for awhile.
I guess they are rebunkered back at Tnet again. But a few of them keep leaking out.

Best wishes,
J_P

[dummywhacker]

Well ... I've just been over to TNET to take a look at Carl getting his "back against the wall".
What an absolute zoo it is over there! :lol: After about 5 to 10 minutes I couldn't stand it anymore. I've never seem so much BS from so many dowsing and LRL bigots.
Carl posted a list of companies that do not sell LRLs, and it totally confused the resident female (and the funny farm boys). For some reason they decided the list contained all the companies that do sell LRLs. Considering the fact that none of the usual suspects were in the list, including H3Tec (got to include that to stay on topic ;)) they were all totally bemused and started running around like headless chickens.
In all the BS posts I read there was no evidence that Carl was up against the wall, only an enormous amount of mutual back slapping and psuedo-scientific claptrap. :eek:

Maybe you should go back and read it again. The question was asked "Who sells LRL's ?" and Carl replied with a list of all the well known MD manufacturers. If anybody "decided" that the list contained companies that do sell LRL's it was Carl...as he was the one that posted it.

[J_Player]

Hmmmm... Is Tnet their secret bunker?
If so, it appears they debunkered and came here for awhile.
I guess they are rebunkered back at Tnet again. But a few of them keep leaking out.

Best wishes,
J_PYup... they're leaking out for sure....

Best wishes,
J_P

[Dave J.]

Great idea Qiaozhi. We need a resident female, specially a pretty one with brains. Even if she works at H3Tec (got to include that to stay on topic ;)). Someone like ... :rolleyes:

http://hideyourarms.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/haduken_female_product2-480x393.jpg

My rod dowsed door #1.

I asked if she works for H3tec expecting it to bounce 3 times, but it said H27tec.

The H3tec gal would be that "beauty" the other guy guy posted, I'm sure any LRL can confirm that. And it's not dowsing for sure, because a dowse won't even register on that one.

--Dave J.

[Qiaozhi]

Maybe you should go back and read it again. The question was asked "Who sells LRL's ?" and Carl replied with a list of all the well known MD manufacturers. If anybody "decided" that the list contained companies that do sell LRL's it was Carl...as he was the one that posted it.
I understood Carl's post perfectly well on first reading, but then I'm not encumbered by a worthless medieval belief system. :rolleyes: It was obvious at first reading because ..... (wait for it) ... none of the companies listed actually manufacture or sell LRLs! :shocked:
Was it just too difficult for you to figure out? The post was designed to confuse the technically challenged and unwary; and it worked beautifully.

By the way, I have no intention of re-visiting the LRL Funny Farm Forum on TNET. It was too nauseas the last time. :barf:

[Dave J.]

Art, you need a crash course on what it means to be a "dowsing claimant".

I'll tell you a Monday evening bedtime story. You decide whether it's fact or fiction. Lose some sleep over it if that's what it takes.

* * * * * * *

Growing up, "Jerry" .......[etc, etc].... At least his LRL buddies were still there to keep him pumped up.

And that's the story of how "Jerry" became a "dowsing claimant".

* * * * * * *

--Dave J.

Sorry, Art failed to report his verdict. So as not to keep anyone in suspense, I'll tell y'all.

The saga of "Jerry" was a composite of what I learned from LRL'ers and dowsers on the Tnet LRL forum in 2002 when I was very active on that forum.

Anyone can go to the present Tnet LRL forum and discover the same things about the current crop of forum denizens (including some old timers from 2002). Human nature hasn't changed much over the last 8 years.

A few practicing dowsers have discovered the same outcome as I describe in the "saga of Jerry" although their explanation is often a bit different from what I offered in Art's bedtime story about "Jerry". I offer it here for completeness and because I respect this other explanation also.

Dowsing is a gift which you did not earn, and if you use it for any purpose other than as a gift to others, the gift will be taken away from you.

It is for this reason that among dowsers who seem to actually have some useful abilities, many refuse to accept monetary payment for their services. They'll usually accept a dinner invitation.

Mr. Christensen, are you listening?

--Dave J.

[Dave J.]

Guys swinging dowsing rods with some electrical stuff attached, and occasionally someone swinging a plain vanilla dowsing rod, will report a gold "find".

Ya gotta understand this is not like a "find" with a metal detector. With a metal detector, until it's in your hand and you can see it and anyone else standing there skeptic or otherwise can also see it, it is not a find. It's a "false signal" of some sort until proven otherwise. Now and then a liar beeperist will post a photo of something they claim they found, when in fact it's something they bought at the coin shop (or whatever), but even then, we all understand what they're claiming, the only problem is that the guy is a liar.

I've been in the beep biz for 30 years and seen a lot of alleged finds, with my BS detector turned on and tuned up. And here's my assessment: of the finds you see posted on the forums the overwhelming majority are for real as the poster described them, no need for BS. I would say this even with regard to Minelab owners, whom that manufacturer tries to jack up into BS braggart heaven. Most keep a reasonably level head despite that.

Dowsing/LRLing plays by a different set of rules. I'll introduce that with a bit of my personal family history.

My grandfather on my mother's side was a small-time rancher in the Northwest, doing a fairly decent job of trying to take care of his family as best he could. Then one summer he got heat stroke, and he wasn't the same after that. He got a little too much religion, a little too much gold fever, and he took up dowsing. He became a semi-nomadic desert rat-- not that any of those things are bad things in and of themselves, but they represented a change for him, which made things difficult for his family who had to figure out how to survive without him.

I occasionally went prospecting with him. He used Spanish needles for minerals, and any forked stick that was handy on site for water. "There's platinum in that mountain 20 miles yonder." "There's a vein of gold 25 feet below us that carries 1,000 ounces in values." "There's an underground stream here 5 feet down with a flow of 20 gallons per minute."

I never saw him "ground truth" anything. And since he virtually never did that, he had no opportunity find out whether or not he had dowsing ability, or to hone the skill if he had any ability in the first place.

He was a good grandfather, bless his soul, but the poor guy couldn't dowse worth a darn and he didn't even know it! My brothers who saw more of him than I did opine that maybe he had just a smidgin of ability once in a while, but his time would have been much more profitably spent with a pick and shovel than with the Spanish needles. All of us brothers have successfully dowsed with coat hangers, so it's not like we reject dowsing in principle. It's just that Gramps couldn't do it. I would submit that subconsciously he knew he couldn't do it, and that's why shallow dowses didn't happen if there was a pick and shovel in sight.

I can "find" tons of gold an hour from now, and I don't even need an LRL to do it. And it's not even speculation: it's been ground truthed for over 100 years. But there's this problem: it's disseminated in half a cubic mile of rock. Since I can do this "find" without any apparatus at all, I'm sure someone with an LRL can do the same.... although perhaps I overestimate? There could be a way to screw this up with an alabi.

Then there's the "I found a rock with micron gold" LRL'er story. The guy gets a hit on a rock while dowsing for gold. Sees no visible gold. Therefore it must be micron gold. In his own mind he ground truthed it with the LRL, but LRL's can point at anything, only laboratory methods can ground truth micron gold.

Meanwhile, I can find real micron gold just as well as any LRL'er, probably better than most, without any need for an LRL. How? I pick up an igneous rock. Most of 'em contain trace quantities of gold. But if I was in Florida with nary an igneous rock in sight, all I'd have to do is buy a supersize soda on the beach, pour it out, and go refill it with sea water. That gold's gonna be even smaller than micron, perfect for an NMR nano-ionic LRL! And it doesn't even have to work! Just aim it at the soda cup!

That's how LRL finds/locates are done, as defined by the LRL crowd themselves. You don't have to take my word for it, read their posts and learn it from them just like I did! Or as I say "Read the advertisement!"

* * * * * *

Meanwhile back at the ranch, any LRL'er who actually bothers to dig stuff, will eventually find stuff. Usually with a metal detector, which oddly enough is their favorite whipping boy in arguments. Maybe the find was enabled by a successful dowse. The key to understanding what I just said, is that a successful dowse is (as a minimum: I prefer higher standards) one which has been independently verified through another more reliable method-- for instance actually seeing the target object. Anything else is just something interesting that happened and without independent verification nobody knows what it means.

--Dave J.

[Qiaozhi]

I understood Carl's post perfectly well on first reading, but then I'm not encumbered by a worthless medieval belief system. :rolleyes: It was obvious at first reading because ..... (wait for it) ... none of the companies listed actually manufacture or sell LRLs! :shocked:
Was it just too difficult for you to figure out? The post was designed to confuse the technically challenged and unwary; and it worked beautifully.

By the way, I have no intention of re-visiting the LRL Funny Farm Forum on TNET. It was too nauseas the last time. :barf:

Hey idiot ozzministrator, is this the way you treat a newbie here?
Do you think you are talking to someone at home?
My reply was perfectly reasonable and to the point.
Carl's post was designed to confuse the denizens of the TNET LRL Forum, and it achieved that goal admirably. Any skeptic reading that post could understand it clearly, not being hampered by an erroneous belief system.

Which part of the post did you not understand? Perhaps we could assist you in your re-education.

[dummywhacker]

I understood Carl's post perfectly well on first reading, but then I'm not encumbered by a worthless medieval belief system. :rolleyes: It was obvious at first reading because ..... (wait for it) ... none of the companies listed actually manufacture or sell LRLs! :shocked:
Was it just too difficult for you to figure out? The post was designed to confuse the technically challenged and unwary; and it worked beautifully.

By the way, I have no intention of re-visiting the LRL Funny Farm Forum on TNET. It was too nauseas the last time. :barf:

If that was what it was truly intended as, that just confirms what several have thought at the real forum (TNET)...that disinformation is posted in order to cause discord and havoc, which is a typical propaganda scenario. Personally, I'm betting that you simply can't figure it out. You are correct, then. it worked beautifully.

Have a good day. :D

[Rudy]

Here are a couple of tips designed to help the H3Tec Tricorder users get more from their instrument.

Tip #1
After reading the patent and reviewing the PCB schematic, it is clear that the signal received from the target goes through an amplifier and several other electronic processes. However, this amplified and processed signal is not used for any particular purpose, including determining the orientation of the needle establishing the signal line.

Since the instrument is powered by a couple of 9V batteries, you can almost double the battery life by disconnecting the power from the receiver section of the electronics, as it serves no useful purpose (it is not involved in determining needle orientation).

Some users may be reluctant to open the instrument and use an Xacto knife to cut the PCB trace carrying power to the receive electronics. I can understand your reluctance, given the over $1000 price you paid and what it would do to the warranty. But, don't despair! Read on to Tip #2, which you should be able to implement without fear.

Tip #2
Since we've already determined that the receive electronics are not in any way engaged in orienting the needle, the astute Treasure Hunter will start to wonder what is the purpose in creating, amplifying and filtering a signal to stimulate the target when the "reflected" signal is not at all used to provide a directional indication. This is the Aha! moment. The realization that you don't need to provide electric power to the transmit section either!

Well, that makes it real neat. Simply removing the two 9V batteries accomplishes Tip #1 and Tip #2 and their benefits, without risking the loss of warranty. Now we are cooking! Think of all the money you'll save over the years by not buying 9V batteries.

Tip #3
As an already existing H3Tec customer, this tip may already be too late for you, but it might help others so I'll include it here.

Since we've already removed the batteries after realizing that the instrument performance is in no way affected by powering down the electronics, the only remaining functional subsystem is the bearing pointing needle, which is free to move as you hold the instrument and point to the presumed signal line. Can you feel another Aha!! moment coming?

Yes indeed! You don't need to pay over $1000 for a bearing mounted pointing needle when you can make your own for less than $20 in parts. Best of all, you'll be able to replicate the performance obtained from the much more expensive H3Tec.

[hobbes_lives]

You're killing me Rudy! :lol: :lol: :lol:

[J_Player]

.

[Carl-NC]

The H3 device I looked at had an extremely expensive esoteric LiFePO4 12.8V rechargeable battery pack. Actually, it's nothing special, only about $28.

The prices I've heard range from around $5,000 to well over $15,000. Plus yearly fees. Plus turbo mod upgrades.

[WM6]

.

Hi J_P

does Mr. Stick working in European continent or we need some additional adapter?

I need 7 lefthanded and 3 righthanded. Hope you can give me mass-discount?

How about pay by Paypal?

[Fred]

The prices I've heard range from around $5,000 to well over $15,000. Plus yearly fees. Plus turbo mod upgrades.

Einstein was right about human stupidity.If there is a limit to it, we have still to find it.

[Rudy]

The H3 device I looked at had an extremely expensive esoteric LiFePO4 12.8V rechargeable battery pack. Actually, it's nothing special, only about $28.

The prices I've heard range from around $5,000 to well over $15,000. Plus yearly fees. Plus turbo mod upgrades.

Like everything else in life, the more expensive it is the better it must be right? :shocked:

[Carl-NC]

Like everything else in life, the more expensive it is the better it must be right?

Of course it is. What else would it be?

[Rudy]

Of course it is. What else would it be?

Must be that software that allows you to program the machine to select specific elemental isotopes.

I just realized this. This instrument is still incredibly cheap compared to the buildings full of centrifuges being used in Iran to enrich Uranium. Iran has squandered a lot of time and money. They could have been enriching Uranium with the H3Tec ability to detect specific isotopes.

[Art3811]

~Klondikeike (http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php?action=profile;u=55462)~

Since there are a rather good number of operating H3's in the US and a few other countries...but most are in the US...... and if the H3 DIDN'T DO what H3tec says it will do....WHERE ARE ALL THE LAW SUITES BY ACTUAL CERTIFIED OWNERS AND USERS OF THE H3...?

Your challenge is this... find the law suites from actual and licensed H3 owners who have filed against H3 for selling a fraudulent device... with so many H3's out there... there must be one person that was willing to put pride aside and file against H3tec for selling a fraudulent device...
Right to the point gentlemen…Where is the proof?

[Art3811]

~Carl~

I can arrange such a test with Sandia National Labs, which has extensive experience in testing these kinds of devices.
Are you going to pay for the testing? ..Art

[Carl-NC]

~Carl~
Are you going to pay for the testing? ..Art

Sure, I'll pay the costs charged by Sandia Labs, whether H3 passes or fails. I won't pay for H3's travel or other "costs"... they can pay that out of the $25,000 they win, if their product works.

Art, have you been telling folks that you got banned from Geotech?

[Art3811]

Just from the Challenge thread that now has disappeared…Art

[Carl-NC]

It's still there. You don't have to take my word for it, you can go look, and see for yourself. You can even post to it if you like, but if it's off-topic it will be moved to this thread.

[Art3811]

I guess that you don't know what happens on your own forum..

[J_Player]

I guess that you don't know what happens on your own forum..Ummmm.. Art,
We all can see Carl's challenge thread.
It's the first thread at the very top of the Remote Sensing Forum (hint: Look near the top when you get to Geotech Remote Sensing page).
Here is a link in case you can't find it: http://www.geotech1.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=33

Have you considered my suggestion here?
http://www.geotech1.com/forums/showpost.php?p=119741&postcount=134

You can learn loads of tips to avoid wasted effort in Forum-101


Best wishes,
J_P

[Qiaozhi]

I guess that you don't know what happens on your own forum..
Is this the start of a conspiracy theory? :eek:

[Art3811]

~Qiaozhi~

Is this the start of a conspiracy theory?
Just sticking to the theories of this board..Art

[Qiaozhi]

~Qiaozhi~
Just sticking to the theories of this board..Art
I think you are putting 2 and 2 together, and getting 5.

[Don Jose de La Mancha]

This effect is used in Earth's field NMR spectrometers and other instruments, because these instruments are portable and inexpensive, they are often used for teaching and field work. But is is necessary for the sample to be put inside a chamber, to measure the NMR. They can't detect any external NMR. It is simply impossible.
__________________

By using a self contained exciting force, there are hand held instruments similar in shape and size to a heat senor that can give you a remarkably accurate read out of quantity and quality of minerals etc that are inside of a core prior to actual assaying. Obviously this is outside of the instrument.

Don Jose de La Mancha
"I exist to Live, not live to exist".

[J_Player]

This effect is used in Earth's field NMR spectrometers and other instruments, because these instruments are portable and inexpensive, they are often used for teaching and field work. But is is necessary for the sample to be put inside a chamber, to measure the NMR. They can't detect any external NMR. It is simply impossible.
__________________

By using a self contained exciting force, there are hand held instruments similar in shape and size to a heat senor that can give you a remarkably accurate read out of quantity and quality of minerals etc that are inside of a core prior to actual assaying. Obviously this is outside of the instrument.

Don Jose de La Mancha
"I exist to Live, not live to exist".Hi Mr. Don,
Did you happen to notice Art's dilemma when trying to find Carl's challenge?
I noticed it.
And frankly, I can't understand how he missed the link at the top of the Remote Sensing forum.
I was just wondering if you were able to find Carl-NC's challenge link at the top of the Remote Sensing Forum.
Did you see it like I did?

Best wishes,
J_P

[Jim]

They probably tried to access that thread while is was down for scrubbing, and could not access it. Most people can process what happened, and move on. Others need to wrap themselves in a blanket of confusion, and not move on.

[Art3811]

~Poor ole Jimmy~

They probably tried to access that thread while is was down for scrubbing, and could not access it. Most people can process what happened, and move on. Others need to wrap themselves in a blanket of confusion, and not move on.
So the forum was down for scrubbing? How often are you forced to scrub the forum? Did something happen that put someone in jeopardy? …Art

[Theseus]

~Poor ole Jimmy~
So the forum was down for scrubbing? How often are you forced to scrub the forum? Did something happen that put someone in jeopardy? …Art


How often do you or Hung post?

[Qiaozhi]

~Poor ole Jimmy~
So the forum was down for scrubbing? How often are you forced to scrub the forum? Did something happen that put someone in jeopardy? …Art

Here comes the conspiracy theory ... :lol:

[Carl-NC]

Good Grief, Art... let me spell it out for you, though I have no illusion it will do any good.

I took the "H3Tec Challenge" thread down to go through and pull out all the off-topic banter that had accumulated. It was almost 300 posts long at that point, so it took a while to do. All those extracted posts formed the very thread you are reading right now.

Now, here comes the spelling-it-out part...

You tried to directly access a thread that had been pulled. You got a generic message that you could not access that thread. You jumped to the conclusion you had been banned, and ran off to tell your buds, instead of taking the one extra mouse click to see if you could still access the rest of the forum.

I realize that cause-and-effect is an elusive concept for you but, as you can plainly see, the thread is still there, and you obviously are not banned. Though I dearly wish you would waste your time on TNet rather than here. Unlike some of the other LRL advocates, you bring absolutely nothing to the party.

[Art3811]

Thank You Carl..You missed the part about the “Name change”…My Favorite Bar still has this tread as H3Tec Challenge….Smart move…If it works…Art

[Don Jose de La Mancha]

Rudy, Ladies and Gentlemen: Just how far can a 1 micro volt signal travel?

Don Jose de La Mancha

[J_Player]

Good Grief, Art... let me spell it out for you, though I have no illusion it will do any good.

I took the "H3Tec Challenge" thread down to go through and pull out all the off-topic banter that had accumulated. It was almost 300 posts long at that point, so it took a while to do. All those extracted posts formed the very thread you are reading right now.

Now, here comes the spelling-it-out part...

You tried to directly access a thread that had been pulled. You got a generic message that you could not access that thread. You jumped to the conclusion you had been banned, and ran off to tell your buds, instead of taking the one extra mouse click to see if you could still access the rest of the forum.

I realize that cause-and-effect is an elusive concept for you but, as you can plainly see, the thread is still there, and you obviously are not banned. Though I dearly wish you would waste your time on TNet rather than here. Unlike some of the other LRL advocates, you bring absolutely nothing to the party.Holy krap..!
Them TNet refugees sure can post a lotta off topic stuff in the H3Tec discussion thread. So far I counted 196 posts that were removed from the original H3Tec thread because they are off topic.

It looks like the forum trolls were not successful in hijacking the H3Tec Challenge thread.
It's kinda nice how we can actually read stuff about H3Tec there. :)

Best wishes,
J_P

[J_Player]

Rudy, Ladies and Gentlemen: Just how far can a 1 micro volt signal travel?

Don Jose de La ManchaHi Mr. Don,
The distance a 1 micro volt signal can travel would depend on what medium the signal is in.
Speaking of mediums, have you ever had an experience with a medium?
I heard stories they can open the door to a whole new world of awareness and science.

Best wishes,
J_P

P.S. Since we have this H3Tec Discussion thread for important and informative off-topic H3Tec information, you will not see me leave any more hints to move your off-topic posts to the Mr. Don thread.

[Art3811]

~J Player~

P.S. Since we have this H3Tec Discussion thread for important and informative off-topic H3Tec information, you will not see me leave any more hints to move your off-topic posts to the Mr. Don thread.
Hey Don..Great question..Notice how well they are Ducking and Dodging the questions…They are not experts about LRL Technology but experts at Ducking and Dodging….Art

[Don Jose de La Mancha]

good morning: I have been patiently watching to see who would address Art's post of #172. So far no-one has answered it. ?????????????

Interesting.

Don Jose de La Mancha

"I exist to Live, not live to exist".

[Don Jose de La Mancha]

HI J-player: You posted in answer -->The distance a 1 micro volt signal can travel would depend on what medium the signal is in.
**********

That is so obvious that I didn't specify it, but assumed to be in

A) normal atmospheric conditions

B) Space

Does it ever completely disappear?

Don Jose de La Mancha
"I exist to Live, not live to exist".

[J_Player]

HI J-player: You posted in answer -->The distance a 1 micro volt signal can travel would depend on what medium the signal is in.
**********

That is so obvious that I didn't specify it, but assumed to be in

A) normal atmospheric conditions

B) Space

Does it ever completely disappear?

Don Jose de La Mancha
"I exist to Live, not live to exist".If we accept that there is some "normal" atmospheric conditions, and that space exists, then we would first need to define what are the properties of the "normal" atmospheric conditions.
After defining "normal" atmospheric conditions, we would then need to determine the boundaries of "space".
Of course you realize there are several prominent theories of what the boundaries of space are. And there are other theories that describe space as something different than we ever conceived it to be.
And finally, there are theories that space does not exist... that it is simply a part of an imaginary idea that people thought up when they began to inhabit the earth.
Think about it...
Did a lower mammal or reptile ever offer you any discussion to specify the nature or boundaries of space?

Best wishes,
J_P