'bomb detector'

[nakky]

Tests reveal 'bomb detector' cannot work


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/newsnight/8476373.stm

Grt Nakky

[nakky]

The director of a company which sold a bomb-detecting device to 20 countries, including Iraq, has been arrested.
ATSC's Jim McCormick, 53, was detained on Friday on suspicion of fraud by misrepresentation, Avon and Somerset police said. He has since been bailed.
It comes after a BBC investigation alleged the ADE-651 did not work.
Earlier, the British government announced a ban on the export of the device to Iraq and Afghanistan, where British forces are serving.
Anti-theft tag
Mr McCormick has said the device, sold from offices in Sparkford, Somerset, used special electronic cards slotted into it to detect explosives.
But a BBC Newsnight investigation reported that a computer laboratory said the card it examined contained only a tag used by shops to prevent theft.
There are concerns the detectors have failed to stop bomb attacks which have killed hundreds of people.

The device consists of a swivelling aerial mounted to a hinge on a hand-grip. It does not operate by battery, instead promotional material says it is powered only by the user's static electricity.
The ADE-651 has been sold to a range of Middle Eastern countries and as far afield as Bangkok.
The Iraqi government has spent US$85m (£52m) on the hand-held detectors, now used at most checkpoints in Baghdad.
It is understood Iraq paid about US$40,000 for each device. No Western government uses them.
The BBC has learned the Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki has ordered an investigation into the bomb detectors, expected to report shortly.
The government ban, brought in by Business Secretary Lord Mandelson, starts next week.

Grt Nakky

[ivconic]

Porsche Cayenne on one side and dead people on another....
Horrible!
....
It is tough for me now to find one old Robert's post from the past.
In one of his acrimony debates with LRL beleivers Robert wrote one large post explaining huge menace, risk and danger from charlatanic nature of LRL movement which outgrow in last 20 years.
So few people here realized for real the very important message Robert tried to send in public through this forum.
....
This case, case of bogus bomb detector, is just proof of what Robert tried to tell us here.
By some strange paradox, Robert is now in Iraq, working for one important organisation, on recovery of some communication systems that has been destroyed there during last USA campaign (version i heard).

Bottom line;
Charlatans are DANGEROUS! It all starts pretty simply and naive, like cases we have here on this forum (RS part).
But it is very dangerous in essence. That's why we must keep on "fighting" here against that ugly charlatanic "movement", ideas and pseudo science.
.....
It is sad that this happened, many people died because of that....yet it is perfect example which justify all what has been said against charlatanism in science so far, especially here on Geotech forums. Geotech forums has nothing to be ashamed of. I am proud to be on right side!

[ivconic]

This also can relate to:

http://www.geotech1.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16245

But you have to be patient and read all posts there...

[Carl-NC]

I've long understand the danger of LRLs. Here in the US, LRL drug detectors were sold to schools and law enforcement. Right now, we have Mexico using them at border crossings:

http://news.yahoo.com/video/world-15749633/17378517
(See 1:20 minute mark)

DKL has, for years, been selling LRL rescue locators where lives are on the line. Now we have LRL bomb detectors trying to stop suicide bombers.

Hopefully this latest round of LRL insanity will bring more attention to the LRL scams and, especially, the scammers.

[Infamy]

What about prosecutions for companies such as OKM, those in the treasure hunting market?

[ivconic]

What about prosecutions for companies such as OKM, those in the treasure hunting market?

Good question! Although OKM is not best example. Mineoro would be better example.

[Qiaozhi]

Here's some more information ->
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article6997859.ece
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/head-of-bomb-detector-company-arrested-in-fraud-investigation-1876388.html
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/01/22/dowsing_rod_bomb_detector_bust/

The inventor is quoted as saying:
“We have been dealing with doubters for ten years. One of the problems we have is that the machine does look a little primitive. We are working on a new model that has flashing lights.” :???:

No comment:
However the device has some defenders in Iraq. Major General Jihad al-Jabiri, the head of the Interior Ministry's directorate for combat explosives, said: "Whether it's magic or scientific, what I care about is detecting bombs. I don't care what they say. I know more about bombs than the Americans do. In fact, I know more about bombs than anyone in the world." :nono:

[ivconic]

"... don't care what they say. I know more about bombs than the Americans do. In fact, I know more about bombs than anyone in the world...."

He should "care"!!!
Maybe he knows more about bombs...but he don't know nothing about detectors...that was the problem!

[kt315]

Saddam Hussein was more adequate knowledgeable man. this modern Iraqi government seems all idiotics and blindly believes western tales. probably the Iraqi civilization intellectually has died :(

[Carl-NC]

The problem is getting someone to file a lawsuit. After you've spent $5000 for a bogus LRL, are you going to spend another $5000 to hire a lawyer?

[grungymike]

Reading this thread reminds me of an incident 35 years ago. A bunch of Bell Huey Cobras went down in 'nam because of falsified heat treatment records that resulted in weak rotor mainshafts. Somebody went to prison for that one.

Anytime procurement is made regarding components or systems for racing, aerospace, deep sea, military application, medical, or any environment where system failure could result in loss of life, utmost attention must be given to ONGOING quality assurance considerations.

That the Iraqi government spent that much on what appears to be a system that would have failed even a basic initial performance evaluation, suggests that their procurement system needs some refining re. quality control protocols.

As for the gentleman running the company that sold this deadly crap, I like the way the Chinese government deals with dishonest businesspeople- they hang 'em...

Bernie, are you listening???

gm

[Qiaozhi]

That the Iraqi government spent that much on what appears to be a system that would have failed even a basic initial performance evaluation, suggests that their procurement system needs some refining re. quality control protocols.
In this case it probably has more to do with corruption than with any quality control protocol.

[Muntari]

After nearly 10 years of work on my MPI demining detector project and having poured many $k of my own hard earned into the project after seeing first hand the devestation UXO and APM can and do afflict on communities, I think anyone who can think of such insane scams without a thought to the dire consequences, man ..... p....s me off. Very sick, very greedy and very heartless. Suicide bombings are bad enough without adding to the problem....

Hope those involved get what they deserve.

Cheers

Muntari

[Rov]

Hi Muntari,hows your project going?Feel sure any if any outcomes will come from OZ.from deep developers like you.as we know ML started this way,an contibute globaly in the biggest way!Cheers! Rov.

[Esteban]

Modern explosive detector can sniff a part of TNT in 200,000,000 part of air. The technique involved used xtal. and a organic sample glued in it. Some reptilian cells is the sample. Scientific discovered that certain animal cells react in presence of TNT. When the reaction between the small quantity of TNT in air and the sample is produced, the mass of xtal. suffers microchanges and oscillator suffers umbalancing.

[ivconic]

Modern explosive detector can sniff a part of TNT in 200,000,000 part of air. The technique involved used xtal. and a organic sample glued in it. Some reptilian cells is the sample. Scientific discovered that certain animal cells react in presence of TNT. When the reaction between the small quantity of TNT in air and the sample is produced, the mass of xtal. suffers microchanges and oscillator suffers umbalancing.

Cool, but let's presume bomb is packed in several plastic layers and than hidden somewhere in the car...possibly covered with some usuall things.
So there are no TNT particles in air at all..
At crosses (usually controled by police) there are much people, cars, dust... heat...all other possible "particles" in air except TNT particles..
What than? Booooom!
Only possible way to locate DIY bomb is to search manually...even than is tough!

[Esteban]

Cool, but let's presume bomb is packed in several plastic layers and than hidden somewhere in the car...possibly covered with some usuall things.
So there are no TNT particles in air at all..
At crosses (usually controled by police) there are much people, cars, dust... heat...all other possible "particles" in air except TNT particles..
What than? Booooom!
Only possible way to locate DIY bomb is to search manually...even than is tough!


EVER particles scape from packages... This was demonstrated with drugs sniffing dogs of a special breed. The drug was covered and put into a can inmersed in water too, but the dog sniff it, because ever some particles scape.

[Rov]

Reptilian Cells are becomming more prevelent!A change is taking place, estaban! you know this .Most still do not?...watching.

[Carl-NC]

Modern explosive detector can sniff a part of TNT in 200,000,000 part of air. The technique involved used xtal. and a organic sample glued in it. Some reptilian cells is the sample. Scientific discovered that certain animal cells react in presence of TNT. When the reaction between the small quantity of TNT in air and the sample is produced, the mass of xtal. suffers microchanges and oscillator suffers umbalancing.

Yes, particle sniffers are possible. Dogs are a good example. But these devices are just ordinary dowsing rods.

3 more bombs went off in Baghdad today.

[Rov]

Most till relate to road side bombs tho! Carl? check carefully!

[Rov]

2 relate to AV,armour vehicle,an roadside bomb.A well known an developed Tactic Taliban Group!on the cheap with dv.results.! Who funded an trained early days?? usa anti ussr etc. 1980s +.yes we all Know!All Old school Politicin...

[Rov]

Deployment of any anti/bomb is still very primitive an inefect.an slow.Talk to your local vets. on the requirements!they expect to save lives!an what they want.Dont sperculate? Please be an end to Wars/mines an the Tech assoc. with it!Abandoned warfare devestates generations ahead!

[goldfinder]

Terrorists are the basic problem. The western world needs to get serious about the threat instead of pecking at the problem and slowly shutting down our freedoms.

The governments need to issue a simple proclamation. "the next terrorist caught will be interroragated, country of origin and location in the country of orgin of the terrorist will be ascertain and that origin will bewiped off the face of the earth. AND pig fat will cover all the bombs that do the clean up."

End of problem!

Read of Black Jack Pershing solution to terrorist in Philippines in WW I and you will know why this would work. It would only have to be executed once to show we mean business.

[kt315]

if Iraq was superior in military equpment and did invasion of USA... who then would be 'the terrorists'? you had got some hi tech advantage (Area-51 - S4 Dream Land, Dulce etc bases, some with alien-ET's presence. good matter, eah? huge un-control Black Budget $$$ on any development) and it gives you a right to attack first. it gives also you a right to call who is terrorist who is not. now you fell yourself absoliutely strong and safety.
the attack (occupation?) on Iraq is one step of your strategic huge plan to round China in ring of your military bases. second is Afganistan. third is Iran. oops.. seems... I forgot Yugoslavia?

[ivconic]

So...finally...is there any real working "bomb detector" on the market (except dogs, reptilles, pigs etc....etc... :lol:)?

[Muntari]

Hi Muntari,hows your project going?Feel sure any if any outcomes will come from OZ.from deep developers like you.as we know ML started this way,an contibute globaly in the biggest way!Cheers! Rov.


Hi Rov,

Slowly at present due to other business activities but some field testing has been completed.

cheers

Muntari

[Esteban]

Yes, particle sniffers are possible. Dogs are a good example. But these devices are just ordinary dowsing rods.

3 more bombs went off in Baghdad today.

And seems this not new molecular detection can be a good option.

[ivconic]

And seems this not new molecular detection can be a good option.

:lol::nono::nono::nono:

[ivconic]

http://publications.drdo.gov.in/gsdl/collect/defences/index/assoc/HASH5460/6ee62748.dir/doc.pdf

[ivconic]

I was just about to download and read article from this page:

http://arjournals.annualreviews.org/doi/abs/10.1146%2Fannurev.physchem.49.1.203

But than, after registration, i was informed that i need to pay $20.00 for to access it!?!?! :angry::lol:

Yeah..sure! Like hell! :lol:

[Esteban]

So...finally...is there any real working "bomb detector" on the market (except dogs, reptilles, pigs etc....etc... :lol:)?



Nature is provided with most sofisticated detection as the nose of the dogs. You must to know this! :rolleyes: Ivconic, do you think I'm stupid? You make missinterpretation of words to discredite others, not only me... :nono:

But also dogs was used in war as "suicide weapon". Poor animal! Trained for to explode with the mine! The mine was attached to a wand. Dogs earn launched to get under vehicles and the rod touched the vehicle and... boom!

See pic.

AT mean anti tank:

http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3432


"Soviets tested the AT dogs during the military conflict with Japan in 1939 quite successfully, destroying several Japanese light tanks.
In August 1941 Soviets had 10 army units of AT dogs (consisted of 4 companies till July 1942, later - of 2 companies. Each company had 126 dogs). Such At dog units also had AT rifles platoons and snipers for killing the missed dogs with explosives. The first action AT dogs saw during the battle of Moscow in autumn 1941, 28th unit of AT dogs destroyed 42 German tanks and 2 armoured cars during the battle of Stalingrad. In one battle 15 from 17 dogs could reached the German tanks.
Till October 1943 (when AT dog units were disbanded) Soviet Army had 2 regiments of AT dogs and 168 separate units, battalions and companies of AT dogs. Taking into consideration such big amount of AT dog units 300 destroyed German tanks seems reasonable, even not enough for 2 regiments and 168 units (that means that every unit with hundreds dogs could destroy only 2 tanks in average, a very ineffective, I would say......If the info about 28th unit is correct - 44 destroyed German AFVs during one battle, that means that the majority of AT dog units was completely unsuccessful!)

In principle, this idea is very strange as Soviet Army had quite sufficient amount of infantry AT rifles during the battle of Moscow and Stalingrad and using good AT rifles against tanks seems for me much more effective, safety and cheaper than unpredictable dog with two AT mines."

My explanation about the doubdt of the above: this group of dogs produces psichological influences in nazis, so, they start shooting against any dog they see!!!

Read history for to learn... read!!! Many things invented today are simple sofistication of the same invented in the past...

[ivconic]

"...Read history for to learn... read!!! Many things invented today are simple sofistication of the same invented in the past..."

Relly!???
You don't say...!?:razz:

Esteban i know what you are aiming on.
If use of dogs was such good solution than we would'nt have so many explosions around the world.
...
Many things can be done in certain conditions, but also failed to be done in other conditions. Pitty.
Without most advanced technology we could not be sure and expect constant success and security.
Dogs are still good in locating drugs, no doubt on that.

[Esteban]

"...Read history for to learn... read!!! Many things invented today are simple sofistication of the same invented in the past..."

Relly!???
You don't say...!?:razz:

Esteban i know what you are aiming on.
If use of dogs was such good solution than we would'nt have so many explosions around the world.
...
Many things can be done in certain conditions, but also failed to be done in other conditions. Pitty.
Without most advanced technology we could not be sure and expect constant success and security.
Dogs are still good in locating drugs, no doubt on that.

You must to know that dogs are used for to detect explosives, too...

[ivconic]

"Many things can be done in certain conditions, but also failed to be done in other conditions."

[Esteban]

"Many things can be done in certain conditions, but also failed to be done in other conditions."


This is true. Occurs with all kind of instruments. For example a common MD failed to found a silver coin at 1 m depth, but a good magnetic pistol done the job and at some distance too! :razz:

[Sean_Goddard]

Best explosives detector EVER is a dog. Nothing mad made can get close. it has been proven that one Springer Spaniel (I forget the name) could detect explosives at a concentration of .001 ppm that's one in 1 BILLION. No man made device has got even half of that. In fact, think about this.. The NEXT time you walk though an airport and they "swab" your laptop (supposedly for explosives traces) take a quick look at the person who is doing the swabbing, AND the guy who is ALWAYS standing behind them. What do you think they're looking for? WRONG!! they're looking for your reaction, to see if you are acting nervously (they're trained for it).

Another of my hobbies is fishing, and I use "Yellow Tail" Lugworm for bait. They contain Iodine, used in some EXPLOSIVES. Iodine stains also your fingers yellow, as does handling most any nitric acid based explosive, so to anyone who KNEW what to look for correctly, I would have been taken aside and my fingernails swabbed underneath. I should have been detained until a full analysis has been carried out, but, despite bright yellow fingers and palms I was allowed to continue onto the plane. Moreover I had been reloading a black powder cartridge gun earlier that week and using my laptop to calculate loads (to give specific velocities) so my laptop should have flagged up as having traces on it....NOTHING and I could even see black powder dust on the keyboard. Go figure!!

These "people in authority" rely on the ignorance of the general public, much like beeper manufacturers do with their made up terms and pseudo science. Airport security? Don't make me laugh, I don't for ONE MINUTE believe that those explosives detectors are anything more than a deterrent.

Welcome to the world of u-r-connedby.gov! :angry:

As for using dogs to blow up tanks.. That's just cruel. Anyway why is the dog about to blow up a RUSSIAN T34 (maybe it's defected)??? I reckon the Russians were SO short of ammo they ACTUALLY trained dogs to retrieve rounds fired at a target that missed. The ULTIMATE FETCH!! HAHAHAHA Maybe the dogs drank acid, then p*@sed on the tanks tracks thus dissolving them?