bionic alpha ??????

[epitopios]

please , is there any help here
someone can give us photo from inside or how it works or the antenna style
from:
http://www.imageshack.gr/files/fskgd7twn5xnxwik8rqu_thumb.gif (http://www.imageshack.gr/view.php?file=fskgd7twn5xnxwik8rqu.gif)
friendly epitopios
*
because I am always curious (Like most of us !!!!)

[FrancoItaly]

Hi All
this link seems interesting not surely for the price!
http://www.okmmetaldetectors.com/products/longrange/bionic01.php?lang=it
Best regards

[Max]

Hi All
this link seems interesting not surely for the price!
http://www.okmmetaldetectors.com/products/longrange/bionic01.php?lang=it
Best regards

You'll find more stuff with an homemade fluxgate magnetometer like EPE stuff... that my opinion.

Not that these products are totally bogus... but are highly overpriced and there are too many claims that have nothing to do with reality.

Me personally, even if have to spend that money for something will just avoid a company that makes such kind of claims... and products that are known as "not so fantastic as advertised" in the TH community.

BTW that bionic I heard is a worthless device... some other OKM are instead mean stuff...

Kind regards,
Max

[epitopios]

You'll find more stuff with an homemade fluxgate magnetometer like EPE stuff... that my opinion.

Not that these products are totally bogus... but are highly overpriced and there are too many claims that have nothing to do with reality.

Me personally, even if have to spend that money for something will just avoid a company that makes such kind of claims... and products that are known as "not so fantastic as advertised" in the TH community.

BTW that bionic I heard is a worthless device... some other OKM are instead mean stuff...

Kind regards,
Max

Dear Max , I already make a magnetometer and a gradiometer and some other stuffs , personally, I dont inted to pay for buying anything like those things.
I saw personally from a friend how bionic works and from its conduct he didnt convinced me.
I ASK HERE , maybe a sensor like FGM could work like a pistol detector ??
any ideas??? just a thouhgt , Ι am curious !!!
friendly epitopios

[Geo]

Hi.
New method... bio-energy....:lol::lol:
New Mineoro.... ionization ...:lol::lol:

Look what OKM write at its page.

""This gold detector includes two individual searching systems:

Bio-energy system (bionic mode)
Ionization system (ionic mode)

The bio-energy system interacts with the bio energy of your own body during the localization of gold and silver objects to observe minimum changes of object substances. Thereby the gold detector Bionic 01 is able to locate almost all metallic objects whereas the ionization system is a method to measure the ions radiation (ions absorbance). Therefore a metal-ion reaction chamber is integrated in the Bionic 01.
The bio-energy system is able to locate also fresh buried or not buried objects no matter which age they are. The ionic system is mainly used to find buried artefacts"".

:lol::lol:
Regards

[Max]

Dear Max , I already make a magnetometer and a gradiometer and some other stuffs , personally, I dont inted to pay for buying anything like those things.
I saw personally from a friend how bionic works and from its conduct he didnt convinced me.
I ASK HERE , maybe a sensor like FGM could work like a pistol detector ??
any ideas??? just a thouhgt , Ι am curious !!!
friendly epitopios

Pistol detector is very rude thing... compared to other stuff like squid amplifier... with that you can REALLy catch floating ions in sub-ppm concentration in air...

The problem is cool that stuff and make it small enough to carry around, but working device ALREADY exist. :rolleyes:

[epitopios]

The problem is cool that stuff and make it small enough to carry around, but working device ALREADY exist. :rolleyes:

Which device ALREADY exist ?????? :shocked::shocked::shocked:
give us your Light !!!! at least some......
friendly epitopios

[Max]

Which device ALREADY exist ?????? :shocked::shocked::shocked:
give us your Light !!!! at least some......
friendly epitopios

It's still about secret thing. I can only say it works, is made in the USA by a BIG subject I don't wanna call by name here... cause it's not good I do, and the device is currently used by the army and others.

It's based on a super-cooled squid detector: in practice it's a ion sniffer/analyzer that can "sniff" ions from incredible distance if there are in the air.

The device is employed to remotely scan vehicles/areas for "particular" ions.

The portable version of device has a kind of knapsack and a kind of handheld sensor connected to main unit that the operator use to "sniff" the air...

To have an idea look here: http://www.global-security-solutions.com/IonScanSentinel.htm

But the thing I mean is NOT that.

Kind regards,
Max

[Qiaozhi]

I think I saw a few of these in one of the main streets of Paris. ;)

[Max]

I think I saw a few of these in one of the main streets of Paris. ;)

No, impossible.

What you see in streets of Paris is a so called "sanisette":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanisette

The device is old stuff and has nothing to do with ion sniffing, but other sniffing maybe, I don't know! :D

The sniffing device works, but the one I posted is an early implementation... so it's not strictly related to the PORTABLE one. :rolleyes:

Kind regards,
Max

[epitopios]

The sniffing device works, but the one I posted is an early implementation... so it's not strictly related to the PORTABLE one. :rolleyes:

Kind regards,
Max

Dear , Dear Max
μας το πάς γύρω-γύρω αλλά δεν μας λές τι είναι στο κέντρο !!! ????
I cant explain in English (its Greek,Geo will explain better , I think!) )
you walk around the circle but you dont hit the center
give us something to search , except if its a big secret ???

very friendly epitopios

[Geo]

Last week, when we went for treasure hunting as members of a Greek forum, one member had with him a Bionic Alfa. Results.... very good for the OKM (10500 euro) but no results for himself:frown:.

Regards:)

[WM6]

, one member had with him a Bionic Alfa. Results.... very good for the OKM (10500 euro) but no results for himself:frown:.



Bionic Alfa owner should not despair, there is still hope to find a good rusty hammer and rectify his Bionic Alfa.

[epitopios]

Last week, when we went for treasure hunting as members of a Greek forum, one member had with him a Bionic Alfa. Results.... very good for the OKM (10500 euro) but no results for himself:frown:.

Regards:)

Γιώργο καλημέρα ,
Ο Max αναφέρει κάτι για super-cooled squid detector αν ειδες παραπάνω, τι κρύβεται πίσω απ αυτό ?? δεν μιλάμε για το Bionic της Ψαχτήρας!!!
όλο γύρω γύρω το πάει το θέμα , αλλά δεν δίνει κάτι !!
με κατάλαβες ??
( I explain Geo in Greeks the same thing I wrote to Μαx)
friendly epitopios

[Geo]

Γιώργο καλημέρα ,
Ο Max αναφέρει κάτι για super-cooled squid detector αν ειδες παραπάνω, τι κρύβεται πίσω απ αυτό ?? δεν μιλάμε για το Bionic της Ψαχτήρας!!!
όλο γύρω γύρω το πάει το θέμα , αλλά δεν δίνει κάτι !!
με κατάλαβες ??
( I explain Geo in Greeks the same thing I wrote to Μαx)
friendly epitopios

Pano αφου τα ειπαμε.....:angry:

[Qiaozhi]

Last week, when we went for treasure hunting as members of a Greek forum, one member had with him a Bionic Alfa. Results.... very good for the OKM (10500 euro) but no results for himself:frown:.

Regards:)
:lol: That is funny, but predictable.

[Theseus]

Last week, when we went for treasure hunting as members of a Greek forum, one member had with him a Bionic Alfa. Results.... very good for the OKM (10500 euro) but no results for himself:frown:.

Regards:)

Why am I not surprised? (rhetorical) :lol:

[Geo]

YES.... but Alonso PD worked at the same treasure hunting.

:lol::lol:

Regards:)

[Theseus]

YES.... but Alonso PD worked at the same treasure hunting.

:lol::lol:

Regards:)

Known targets can hardly be considered "worked". :lol: :lol:

[Geo]

It was not known target. First we located it with Lrods, later Epitopios with his gradiometer and again I with Alonso PD. Later we went again with a Delta Pulse with 1x1 coil and took it out.

[WM6]

It was not known target. First we located it with Lrods, later Epitopios with his gradiometer and again I with Alonso PD. Later we went again with a Delta Pulse with 1x1 coil and took it out.


Mean L-rods are the best LRLs. Because after detecting with L-rod it was known target location.

And, Geo, hov do you know that for L-rod owner it was not very good known target location?

[Geo]

Mean L-rods are the best LRLs. Because after detecting with L-rod it was known target location.

And, Geo, hov do you know that for L-rod owner it was not very good known target location?

I don't mean nothing.
All members live far from this mountain. The member with Lrods live 500km far and it was the first time that he visited this mountain.
The mountain is Olympus. Did you hear about twelve gods from Olympus??

[epitopios]

Geo , do you mind ??
for more imformations about Olympous mountain :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Olympus
http://www.olympusfd.gr/us/default.asp
and if you want to see some fotos:
http://www.olympusfd.gr/us/default.asp

... is it strange ??? People fromAthens ,Sparta and all other Greeks cities belived 12 Gods who lived on ( and in) this mountain , and the most strange think is that , this mountain is in the GreekMacedonian region !!!!
How about that ,surprising ??? just think
if someone interesting about age History and not media!!!

forgive me for this parenthesis !!!!

always friendly epitopios

[WM6]

. Did you hear about twelve gods from Olympus??



Sure i did Geo, I am pagan.

I suggest you not to play games with Goddess, it will be very dangerous.

[Geo]

Sure i did Geo, I am pagan.

I suggest you not to play games with Goddess, it will be very dangerous.

Hahhaha... i don't play with Goddess. At Olympus there are a lot of treasures, so i am looking to find something.
But until now....Nothing :lol::lol:

[Geo]

Here a photo at Olympus with the PD when i located the target

[Astrodetect]

What was the the target that you found, Geo?
Και το δικο μου πιστολι δουλεύει.

[Geo]

What was the the target that you found, Geo?
Και το δικο μου πιστολι δουλεύει.

Πατο απο κονσερβα στο μισο μετρο

[WM6]

Gold melting device,
http://i89.servimg.com/u/f89/14/09/85/82/gold_m10.jpg


dont use this device for coin search, see results on 1euro air test:
http://i89.servimg.com/u/f89/14/09/85/82/euro-c10.jpg

[Geo]

Gold melting device,
http://i89.servimg.com/u/f89/14/09/85/82/gold_m10.jpg


dont use this device for coin search, see results on 1euro air test:
http://i89.servimg.com/u/f89/14/09/85/82/euro-c10.jpg




Again the same:(:(

[Morgan]

Here a photo at Olympus with the PD when i located the target
Nice photo,nice place.
I´m sure there are treasures there,GOLD for the God´s

[Qiaozhi]

Here a photo at Olympus with the PD when i located the target
Hi Geo,

I thought your PD clone was not working as good as the Alonso PD, or have you made some improvements?

[Geo]

Hi Geo,

I thought your PD clone was not working as good as the Alonso PD, or have you made some improvements?


Hi Qiaozhi.
It is the classic Alonso PD with some adds.
I have calibrated it for full sensitivity, not for "no ferrous" only.

Regards:)

[detectoman]

hello geo, you need put the null omega in most near point where do major discrimination, too very little changes in coils, may be change the leads of wires to reverse, put other little change in oscilation of resonance, see frecuences, etc

[Geo]

hello geo, you need put the null omega in most near point where do major discrimination, too very little changes in coils, may be change the leads of wires to reverse, put other little change in oscilation of resonance, see frecuences, etc

Why to put it in discrimination mode???
I like it at all metal!!!, no problem if it detect iron.
Regards

[detectoman]

then geo you not should make detection in sites of trash or farm actual, only in forest, in mountain exist very mineral then the pd go crazy

[Geo]

I am looking for metallic iron boxes

[apogonos]

άδειο ή γεμάτο?:lol::lol::lol:

[Geo]

άδειο ή γεμάτο?:lol::lol::lol:


full is better :lol::lol:

[Max]

full is better :lol::lol:

full of farts also good ? :lol::lol::lol:

I mean... you know... PD is fart driven technology from south america... so... no gas inside the box... no long range localization...

So you hope you'll spot a gas resorvoir in an iron box... but endly, can be just farts and no gold! :shocked:

Disappointing if so! :rolleyes:

Kind regards,
Max

[epitopios]

It was not known target. First we located it with Lrods, later Epitopios with his gradiometer and again I with Alonso PD. Later we went again with a Delta Pulse with 1x1 coil and took it out.

george , you forget some extra research !!!!
συγνώμη για τη μουτζούρα , επίτηδες!!



friendly epitopios

[Geo]

full of farts also good ? :lol::lol::lol:

I mean... you know... PD is fart driven technology from south america... so... no gas inside the box... no long range localization...

So you hope you'll spot a gas resorvoir in an iron box... but endly, can be just farts and no gold! :shocked:

Disappointing if so! :rolleyes:

Kind regards,
Max

Hi Max.
At LRLs we try to locate the "phenomenon", not the metal as doing the metal detectors. Maybe you have right and the "phenomenon" to be a "fart" :lol::lol:. No problem for me if near the "farts" there is the gold:lol:
Carl will open a new prive forum for the new FPD (fart pistol detector):lol:.
But to speak seriously, the PD is working, it located the target with 10 persons to observe it.

Regards:)

[WM6]

Carl will open a new prive forum for the new FPD (fart pistol detector):lol:.



Short life forum, Geo, because there is no possibilities to promote FPD design.



But to speak seriously, the PD is working, it located the target with 10 persons to observe it.



Illusions of David Copperfield observed millions believed in "what you see is what you get", but that are still only illusions.

[Geo]

Short life forum, Geo, because there is no possibilities to promote FPD design.



Illusions of David Copperfield observed millions believed in "what you see is what you get", but that are still only illusions.


You always make the same mistake. You speak always for David Copperfield and David Copperfield and...
I never said that the LRLs are perfect. I went a lot of times up of buried objects, but there are times that LRL made mistake. Or i went for gold and i found rust iron. David Copperfield don't give all these money if your LRL find a target, but if you find the targets that he want. All people that use LRL knows that there are some triks where LRL make mistakes.
For example if near the gold there is a object from rust steel the lrl will go to the steel.
It is sure that LRLs or dowsing are working. How much good.... for me not very good, but they working. So it is better to looking for how to make them better than to spent our time if work or not and why we don't go to Mr David Copperfield.

Regards:)

[WM6]

It is sure that LRLs or dowsing are working. How much good.... for me not very good, but they working. So it is better to looking for how to make them better than to spent our time .....

:)

Agree.

LRL is working if one give to it (consciously or unconsciously) a little help.

Geo, I am not against improvement of nonworking devices, in contrary I support all such efforts.

But I'll always be against the sale of such non working expensive devices to naive customers and their promotion in direct or indirect way.

I accept your explanation, that you are not the LRL seller nor mass producer, but you are quite active at least indirectly in promotion of LRL devices, and therefore an objection, of course, also happen to you.

In what we spend our time or even a whole life is our intimate decision which can be only on our own risk. If you chose to improve LRL design in your life I can only respect this, except in promotional aspect.

So I wish you all success in field of LRL improvement.

[Theseus]

Agree.

LRL is working if one give to it (consciously or unconsciously) a little help.

Geo, I am not against improvement of nonworking devices, in contrary I support all such efforts.

But I'll always be against the sale of such non working expensive devices to naive customers and their promotion in direct or indirect way.

I accept your explanation, that you are not the LRL seller nor mass producer, but you are quite active at least indirectly in promotion of LRL devices, and therefore an objection, of course, also happen to you.

In what we spend our time or even a whole life is our intimate decision which can be only on our own risk. If you chose to improve LRL design in your life I can only respect this, except in promotional aspect.

So I wish you all success in field of LRL improvement.

Exactly!

I agree entirely. If an individual wants to spend their life playing with LRLs and other related dowsing contraptions - I have no problem with them, or how they want to spend their energy and resources.

However, when an LRL salesmen concocts these same "do-nothing" contraptions for sale to the innocent gullible and technically-challenged; then that is a CRIME pure and simple. It is a crime because the salesmen already know they don't work, and hence constitutes Willful Deception. That sort of thing is Wrong, and I do have a problem with it, and will expose their schemes and scams whenever I get the chance.

[Geo]

Agree.

LRL is working if one give to it (consciously or unconsciously) a little help.

Geo, I am not against improvement of nonworking devices, in contrary I support all such efforts.

But I'll always be against the sale of such non working expensive devices to naive customers and their promotion in direct or indirect way.

I accept your explanation, that you are not the LRL seller nor mass producer, but you are quite active at least indirectly in promotion of LRL devices, and therefore an objection, of course, also happen to you.

In what we spend our time or even a whole life is our intimate decision which can be only on our own risk. If you chose to improve LRL design in your life I can only respect this, except in promotional aspect.

So I wish you all success in field of LRL improvement.

WM6,
Thank you

[J_Player]

Exactly!


I agree entirely. If an individual wants to spend their life playing with LRLs and other related dowsing contraptions - I have no problem with them, or how they want to spend their energy and resources.

However, when an LRL salesmen concocts these same "do-nothing" contraptions for sale to the innocent gullible and technically-challenged; then that is a CRIME pure and simple. It is a crime because the salesmen already know they don't work, and hence constitutes Willful Deception. That sort of thing is Wrong, and I do have a problem with it, and will expose their schemes and scams whenever I get the chance.
Exactly.
Anyone who promotes and advocates devices for sale that don't do what they are advertized to do is helping to promote more victims who have a closet full of expensive junk. The victims are sometimes poor people who can't really afford the cost of these LRLs, but they buy them anyway believing they will find valuable treasures that will pay for the machines and solve their financial problems as well. Some of these are people who would not have spent the money they needed for food and rent if they had not read fantastic stories about how well this junk works. But it is still wrong to perpetrate this deception even when the victims can afford it. We know this is happening because people like Carl-NC are able to buy these LRLs after they have been used only a few times for pennies on the dollar from people who were stupid to believe the propaganda. And they ask that their name is not disclosed, so they can conceal the fact they were fooled by these stupid ads and promotional writing with nothing to substantiate it.

Wouldn't it be nice if Dell, Esteban, and hung held public demonstrations every time when they make a claim about Mineoro, RangerTell, or Omnitron products to prove what they say is true? Has anyone in this forum ever seen Dell, Esteban or hung actually recover treasure with these LRL devices? I sure read a lot of reports from people who bought these LRLs claiming they never worked, after reading reports by Dell, Esteban, and hung that they do work.

Best wishes.
J_P

[Geo]

Hi J_P.
Esteban demonstrated some times his LRLs. What other he can do???
It is not so easy for us to go to Paraguay to see his LRL :lol::lol:. Last years we saw some LRL to work. What other the owners can do so we to believe them??? For me LRLs they work, but not at every ground ... every time, every season....:frown:, not so easy as a normal metal detector.

Regards:)

[J_Player]

Hi J_P.
Esteban demonstrated some times his LRLs. What other he can do???
It is not so easy for us to go to Paraguay to see his LRL :lol::lol:. Last years we saw some LRL to work. What other the owners can do so we to believe them??? For me LRLs they work, but not at every ground ... every time, every season....:frown:, not so easy as a normal metal detector.

Regards:)Hi Geo,

I said nothing about the LRLs that Esteban built. I was talking about the LRLs that are sold commercially.... Mineoro, RangerTell, and Omnitron. See above.

I have no problem when people make experiments for their own use and their friends. The problem I see is when companies are charging thousands of dollars for machines that people complain do not work. For example... did you ever use a RangerTell to recover treasure? Did you recover treasure with Omnitron products? With Mineoro? Sure it is not easy to go to Paraguay to see a demonstration. But we have plenty of people who report in this forum what they find with these LRL models. Most people who report their experience here say these products do not find any treasure. But the manufacturers and a very few people who are friends or relatives of the manufacturers continue to say they find treasures, without demonstrating them finding treasures in front of people who want to see. These few continue to say they work even when most customers who report here say they find nothing except random noise.


We continue to see people buying these LRL models and complaining that they don't work. So why should I believe they work when most people who bought them say they don't?

Best wishes,
J_P

[Geo]

OK:).

Regards

[g-sani]

Hi to everybody.
Buying LRLs when you have some money to spent might be an adiction for some people.It is like people fishing, even though they have a tackle they buy another one and another one from time to time.
The thing here is to choose which one is better(by testing) and for those involved in electronics to try to make them better or to come up whith a new detection method.
So Geo is right when he says that we have to try to make them better.
Through research and improvement humanity accomplishes goals and this is the whole idea about everything in life.
Well, I beleive it is not far the time that a new detection method will come up and the sun will be shining again for all of us.:):):)

[Geo]

Hi to everybody.
Buying LRLs when you have some money to spent might be an adiction for some people.It is like people fishing, even though they have a tackle they buy another one and another one from time to time.
The thing here is to choose which one is better(by testing) and for those involved in electronics to try to make them better or to come up whith a new detection method.
So Geo is right when he says that we have to try to make them better.
Through research and improvement humanity accomplishes goals and this is the whole idea about everything in life.
Well, I beleive it is not far the time that a new detection method will come up and the sun will be shining again for all of us.:):):)

Amen....:lol:

[WM6]

Well, I beleive it is not far the time that a new detection method will come up and the sun will be shining again for all of us.:):):)




"sun will be shining again for" sure, but what about gold ...????

[J_Player]

"sun will be shining again for" sure, but what about gold ...????Buried gold does not shine. It must be recovered and put in the light before we will see it shine. :rolleyes:

Best wishes,
J_P

[Geo]

Buried gold does not shine. It must be recovered and put in the light before we will see it shine. :rolleyes:

Best wishes,
J_P

Hi J_P.
It is too late there (about 03:00)...... go for sleep:lol:

Regards

[J_Player]

Hi J_P.
It is too late there (about 03:00)...... go for sleep:lol:Hi Geo,

Who can sleep when the Mineoro site is safe to read again?
You won't believe the cool science discoveries that were made at the Mineoro headquarters.

Mineoro website reports for today: Wednesday - November 11/2009, that the ions rise exactly 7.21 feet (2.19m) high above the ground. http://www.mineoro.com/goldDetectors/field02.php
Then this column of ions moves mostly to the north after reaching 7.21 feet altitude. http://www.mineoro.com/goldDetectors/field03.php Hmmm... I wonder what happens if the wind begins to blow east really strong? I suppose the "Phenomenon" is stronger than a strong wind, so the ions hovering in the air will not move with the air.

It seems strange that drift tube experiments do not detect these cylindrical clouds of ions hovering in the air above buried treasures. So how can the Mineoro locators detect them? This is also explained on the Mineoro pages:
"When the negative "ion"finds its twin of opposite polarity, they love each other so intensely, that when they get together they provoke a short-circuit and automatically destroy themselves.

As in the Romeo and Juliet movie, both of them die, but the proof of their death is a flask of poison near them: in the same way, our "passionate ions" also leave a proof of their death in "emiting a crash", which generates an electrical signal as fast as nano, pico, femto or atto seconds, detectable in sensitive electronic circuits and projected for this aim.

The classifier just filters the negative "ions", twin pairs of positivie "ions" produced by the classifier". From: http://www.mineoro.com/goldDetectors/explanations.php

We know the laboratory instruments like drift tubes and squid amplifiers cannot find these ion concentrations hovering in the air, but the Mineoro detectors can. How is this done? The secret is the PVC tube with gold foil inside. Why spend the thousands of dollars for laboratory equipment to verify these clouds of ions, when you can do it for just pennies with PVC tubing and some gold foil? These PVC tubes create a miniature polar field inside using the same gold as you are trying to locate. And the best part is you need only a battery and a PVC tube with gold foil inside to create the polar field that makes it possible to detect gold from over a thousand feet. So don't waste your money on expensive laboratory equipment when a battery and gold foil will work nicely to detect the "dying Romeo and Juliet of the ions emitting a crash". PS. If expensive laboratory equipment determines there are no ions in the air, throw the lab equipment away. It is obviously defective. You can replace it with some PVC tube and gold foil with a battery.

[Theseus]

Hi Geo,

Who can sleep when the Mineoro site is safe to read again?
You won't believe the cool science discoveries that were made at the Mineoro headquarters.

Mineoro website reports for today: Wednesday - November 11/2009, that the ions rise exactly 7.21 feet (2.19m) high above the ground.

And if you believe that crap, I've got some ocean-front property in Arizona to sell you.... cheap.

[g-sani]

"sun will be shining again for" sure, but what about gold ...????

It will sure be a shiny day the day we will find gold my friend.
In ancient times gold's symbol was the sun.Why?
May be because they are very similar when shining.:lol::lol::lol:

Mind you that it hapened to me once and it really was a shiny day.

Dear J Player gold shines(doesn't glow) even in caves.A torch light is enough to make you smile.:D:D:D

[sweatofglory]

Amen....:lol:


246875 :)

[J_Player]

And if you believe that crap, I've got some ocean-front property in Arizona to sell you.... cheap.
Cheap ocean front property in Arizona?
Hmmmm.. Sounds interesting. Can you sell me a lot with a dock so I can go marlin fishing?

Perhaps I have been too harsh about the horrors of buying deceptively attractive commercial LRLs for sale. I am sure there are legitimate reasons to buy these. For example, look at how much money people pay for rare non-working cars that they never drive. Maybe a classic Bugatti -- http://www.newser.com/story/50231/classic-bugatti-sells-for-45m.html Even if the buyer makes the car working, it is only to keep it in storage after driving it for a few hours.

There are also collectors of non-working commercial LRLs who buy these items to hoard in their collections of unusual stuff. We hear rumors that even the owner of this forum (Carl-NC) looks for bargains where he can build up his collection of LRLs. Just think... in the years to come when these commercial LRL models are long forgotten, a few collectors will have rare collections of curiosities that would be worth a lot to any historian of scam artists. Carl could start a "museum of the hard-to-believe". But I suppose this kind of collecting is only useful for people who can afford the luxury of buying things they know will not work. So what about the others who don't have spare cash for these collectors items?
There is a solution:

Without spending extra cash, you can collect material for your own "museum of the hard-to-believe".
How?
Now that the Mineoro website has removed their viruses, we can safely surf there to read up on new little-known science. You can collect your own "hard-to-believe" material by simply going to the Mineoro web pages and saving them on your computer in a special folder made to keep all the "hard-to-believe" stuff you find online. You will find lots more material for this folder at RangerTell, Omnitron, and lots of other places. But don't stop with non-working commercial LRLs, look for sites that document crop circles, alien abductions, mind control conspiracies, etc. The web is full of this kind of thing.

Some good places to look for hard-to-believe science:
(Start collecting soon... these pages may be removed after enough posts on Geotech forums that say they are wrong)!
http://www.mineoro.com/goldDetectors/field02.php
http://www.mineoro.com/goldDetectors/explanations.php
http://www.mineoro.com/goldDetectors/graphic.php
http://www.rangertell.com/tales4.htm
http://www.omnitron.net/del_prod.htm

Happy weird science collecting!
J_P

[WM6]

It will sure be a shiny day the day we will find gold my friend.
Mind you that it hapened to me once and it really was a shiny day.

.:D:D:D

I wish you all success, my friend.

Are you wanted job in Fort Knox?

[g-sani]

Thanks very much WM6-same to you.
Sometimes all it takes is just one tick and dreams come true.:)

[Morgan]

Hi Max.
At LRLs we try to locate the "phenomenon", not the metal as doing the metal detectors. Maybe you have right and the "phenomenon" to be a "fart" :lol::lol:. No problem for me if near the "farts" there is the gold:lol:
Carl will open a new prive forum for the new FPD (fart pistol detector):lol:.
But to speak seriously, the PD is working, it located the target with 10 persons to observe it.

Regards:)
Hi Geo

With some skill and patience with your PD you will see what this device can do for you. Not in the nonsense range of Km but you can trust in the possibility of finding treasure 20m or more with PD.
Remember to give one gold coin to your friend from Portugal (its a joke).
Hope you will find the boxes...

Regards

[Geo]

Hi Morgan.
I modified the ferrite circuit at my PD, so now it detect a small object from 2m but with very strong signal and not critical adjustment. I believe that it will detect big object from 15...20m far.

Regards

[J_Player]

Hi Morgan.
I modified the ferrite circuit at my PD, so now it detect a small object from 2m but with very strong signal and not critical adjustment. I believe that it will detect big object from 15...20m far.

RegardsHi Geo,
What small object did you detect at 2m? Was it long-time buried?

Best wishes,
J_P

[g-sani]

Maybe when it comes to different metals gold,silver,copper e.t.c. the results will differ from one another.
And I am talking mostly about detection ranges.
I beleive that gold is a category of its own.
For example a big ammount of gold is not detectable for most VLF detectors like garret white and whatever else is in the market.
The companies making them know this and some of them say something in their manual like for one single coin this program is better and for a hoard this is one is best to use.
What I want to say is that when it comes to gold is more likely to pass over a big ammount and miss it instead of detecting it.
All you people that you test LRLs must have this in mind and from time to time whenever possible do a check whith a bigger ammount of gold.And I am talking about times that you meet to test your LRLs having whith you manufacturers like mineoro for example.It can be done if everybody brings an ammount whith him and put it all together for test purposes.
I know that it is difficult to have such an ammount of your own but this is a critical point since LRLs will be mostly used for treasure and not for coins.
Have you ever thought why LRL manufacturers don't make such a test and they don't talk much about it?May be they know something that they don't want us to know.And I bet you they have done such a test many times.Don't worry my friends, people making LRLs have this in their mind when building something new but they keep it for themselves.
They will loose money if they say the whole truth.As simple as that.
All say the same:It can detect a single coin from that distance and then they say that (so)it can detect a large ammount from a greater distance.
No, no,:nono: this is rediculous when you make money from selling LRLs.
You must first put down some ammount of gold, do the test and then talk.
Otherwise you are only making assumptions.

Yes they should do it because is their job, they should have a serious ammount(1-2Kilos maybe) hidden somewhere for testing.
Of course every LRL is based on a different working principle or phenomenon as some people like to say.This thing is not an excuse anyway.May be some LRLs will pass the test I don't say different.But we must know which ones.How?Proper testing!
We are looking for treasure and not for coins and rings, so tests must be based arround this fact.
In my country they say an expression for such situations: <We found the needle and lost the nail>

[WM6]

No, no,:nono: this is rediculous when you make money from selling LRLs.
You must first put down some ammount of gold, do the test and then talk.
Otherwise you are only making assumptions.



Hi g-sani, if such mineoros can not detect Fort Knox 30 miles away, such LRL wort nothing. You do not need to buy kg-s of gold.

[Geo]

Hi Geo,
What small object did you detect at 2m? Was it long-time buried?

Best wishes,
J_P

Hi J_P.
It was a rusted buckle from a gun (about from 1940... 42). I did not went at digging, but the guys that dug the place found 2 objects. One metallic plate about 10x8cm and a buckle. First told me that at the place where i took the signal was the metallic plate, but later another guy that he was with me when i took the signals told me that my PD detected the puckle. The metallic plate was at depth of 50cm and the buckle at 30 cm.
PD did not stop to beep in a circle of 2... maybe 3 meters.

Regards:)

[g-sani]

Hi Geo,
I wanted to ask you something about your PD.
How long does it need for a gold object to be burried until it will be detectable by your PD?
Does the same rule applies whith passive receivers as well?

[Geo]

Hi συνονοματε....
I don't know:frown::frown:
The last test with gold was last summer at Portugal where me and Morgan detected a gold medal who it was buried before 20 years. It was the less time buried object....
I found some other golden objects but they was much more years buried
:)

[g-sani]

Hi συνονοματε....
I don't know:frown::frown:
The last test with gold was last summer at Portugal where me and Morgan detected a gold medal who it was buried before 20 years. It was the less time buried object....
I found some other golden objects but they was much more years buried
:)

Well this is succes George no matter the distance or depth.
Please put down the link of the particular video so I can have a look as well.
This is why I said that is worthy for all of you that you try to improve this technology.We all owe you for that.
History proved that as time passed by all inventions improved in a big manner so at the end they serve people in the way that it was imagined from the very beggining of the new idea.

About the photo below it is an LRL that claims to find metals from a great distance.I found this site while I was looking for something else and I saved the photo.
Since that I cannot find this site anymore.
Can anybody help me about this?
The name of this photo as it was saved in my pc is usdigigcom but it didn't help.
Maybe you can advise me of a better way recovering this site.

[J_Player]

Maybe when it comes to different metals gold,silver,copper e.t.c. the results will differ from one another.
And I am talking mostly about detection ranges.
I beleive that gold is a category of its own.
For example a big ammount of gold is not detectable for most VLF detectors like garret white and whatever else is in the market.
The companies making them know this and some of them say something in their manual like for one single coin this program is better and for a hoard this is one is best to use.
What I want to say is that when it comes to gold is more likely to pass over a big ammount and miss it instead of detecting it.
All you people that you test LRLs must have this in mind and from time to time whenever possible do a check whith a bigger ammount of gold.And I am talking about times that you meet to test your LRLs having whith you manufacturers like mineoro for example.It can be done if everybody brings an ammount whith him and put it all together for test purposes.
I know that it is difficult to have such an ammount of your own but this is a critical point since LRLs will be mostly used for treasure and not for coins.
Have you ever thought why LRL manufacturers don't make such a test and they don't talk much about it?May be they know something that they don't want us to know.And I bet you they have done such a test many times.Don't worry my friends, people making LRLs have this in their mind when building something new but they keep it for themselves.
They will loose money if they say the whole truth.As simple as that.
All say the same:It can detect a single coin from that distance and then they say that (so)it can detect a large ammount from a greater distance.
No, no,:nono: this is rediculous when you make money from selling LRLs.
You must first put down some ammount of gold, do the test and then talk.
Otherwise you are only making assumptions.

Yes they should do it because is their job, they should have a serious ammount(1-2Kilos maybe) hidden somewhere for testing.
Of course every LRL is based on a different working principle or phenomenon as some people like to say.This thing is not an excuse anyway.May be some LRLs will pass the test I don't say different.But we must know which ones.How?Proper testing!
We are looking for treasure and not for coins and rings, so tests must be based arround this fact.
In my country they say an expression for such situations: <We found the needle and lost the nail>Gold is hard to detect with a VLF metal detector because it has high resistance compared to other metals like copper. This makes weaker eddy currents in the metal we are trying to detect. But people using LRLs claim they are not detecting eddy currents, so they are not limited by the internal resistance of a gold object.

Mineoro does have known places where they buried metal things a long time ago. And the factory reps make demonstrations to show their LRLs locating these buried metal objects. Then people buy their LRLs and go treasure hunting. But, with few exceptions they soon find that the LRLs they bought are not working like they did at the factory demonstration!

Here is a recent report from Connie who had this experience:
"When will the videos be on the forum, so we can all see them?????
the reason why I'm so interrested to see them is because I bought a DC2008 from mineoro.
( I really had a brain wash from Brazil )
and now, the only thing left to do is really get to understand it.
Hopefully the demostration can show us all, the good they work or if i'ts just "garbage"
From: http://www.geotech1.com/forums/showpost.php?p=96087&postcount=86

"I,m not worry, I'm very happy, thank you...
and yes I paid quite something!!!
and believe me, I'm still waiting for positive results.
I'm a real treasure hunter,
and I'm a women with a lot of guts!!!! and all I ask is some respect.
I'm new in this forum and I look foward to achieve more experience from the experts.
I have no doubt there are many in this forum and hopefully I can learn from them."
From: http://www.geotech1.com/forums/showpost.php?p=96546&postcount=132

My advice is to borrow or rent a LRL and use it where you hunt for treasure for at least a day before you buy it.
If it does what you want it to do, then buy it. If not, then send it back.
The reports that we see from Connie and other victims is precisely why skeptical people are asking these manufacturers to subject their machines to public testing where we can see them recovering gold live. A double blind test would work nicely. Any metal detector can pass this test, no not a single LRL has passed that I know of.


Best wishes,
J_P

[g-sani]

Hi J Player,
I myself tried my white XLT and passed over a jar full of gold once.Nothing!
Or it was something like a sudden br... and kept on silent.That br... was just for a fraction of a second and you don't really noticed it at all.
Then I was lucky to pass over a deepmax X3 using a 35DD coil and bingo!
Mind you that this happened in real and it was not a test, please beleive me.
Nobody knew the presence of gold in that spot.I was in a position trying to figure if it is something there or not.
I also tested by chance an explorer SE in gold and it behaved better.It could detect pure gold(about 150gr) at 70cm been there from ancient times and XLT could't pick it up at all.I use Whites many years and I know how they work.I really like them but..but.. but...
My conclusion is that you can only be sure while going for gold only when you use a pulse detector.VLFs don't do it when a bigger ammount is involved.Of course is different when some other metal is there as well.Then there is no problem.
I don't have experience for such a thing when LRLs is in use.
I beleive that some do the job and some don't.
I am just trying to see which ones they can do it.

[J_Player]

J Player,
I myself tried my white XLT and passed over a jar full of gold once.Nothing!
Or it was something like a sudden br... and kept on silent.That br... was just for a fraction of a second and you don't really noticed it at all.
Then I was lucky to pass over a deepmax X3 using a 35DD coil and bingo!
Mind you that this happened in real and it was not a test, please beleive me.
Nobody knew the presence of gold in that spot.I was in a position trying to figure if it is something there or not.
I also tested by chance an explorer SE in gold and it behaved better.It could detect pure gold(about 150gr) at 70cm been there from ancient times and XLT could't pick it up at all.I use Whites many years and I know how they work.I really like them but..but.. but...
My conclusion is that you can only be sure while going for gold only when you use a pulse detector.VLFs don't do it when a bigger ammount is involved.Of course is different when some other metal is there as well.Then there is no problem.
I don't have experience for such a thing when LRLs is in use.
I beleive that some do the job and some don't.
I am just trying to see which ones they can do it.Hi G-sani.
I like most Whites detectors. But I don't have an XLT. I used my brothers XLT and did not like it. The reason is because it has many automatic menus that are hard for a beginner to understand. I was worried I was discriminating out many of the targets I was looking for. I am sure an experienced user could do much better. The detection also depends on the size of the gold things in the jar, and the ground where the gold is buried. A gold medallion of 150gr is much easier to detect than 150gr of gold dust. And mineralised soil makes it harder to detect buried metals. For gold things the size of common coins or bigger, most VLF detectors can do a good job of detecting them. But Pi detectors are considered better especially in bad mineralised ground. This is why most nugget prospectors in Australia use PI detectors in their bad red soil full of iron. Of course, whether VLF or PI, the ability to detect small gold will depend on how well designed the circuits are. The cheaper detectors usually cannot detect as deep or find items as small as the sophisticated detectors that can cost triple the price or more. Your target was found at 70cm which is near the limit for most metal detectors, depending on the size of the gold items that were found.

According to LRL aficionados, their LRLs do not care about the soil. The "Phenomenon" is stronger than mineralised soil, and can be detected even for things buried at the bottom of a lake.

Best wishes,
J_P

[g-sani]

Hi G-sani.
I like most Whites detectors. But I don't have an XLT. I used my brothers XLT and did not like it. The reason is because it has many automatic menus that are hard for a beginner to understand. I was worried I was discriminating out many of the targets I was looking for. I am sure an experienced user could do much better. The detection also depends on the size of the gold things in the jar, and the ground where the gold is buried. A gold medallion of 150gr is much easier to detect than 150gr of gold dust. And mineralised soil makes it harder to detect buried metals. For gold things the size of common coins or bigger, most VLF detectors can do a good job of detecting them. But Pi detectors are considered better especially in bad mineralised ground. This is why most nugget prospectors in Australia use PI detectors in their bad red soil full of iron. Of course, whether VLF or PI, the ability to detect small gold will depend on how well designed the circuits are. The cheaper detectors usually cannot detect as deep or find items as small as the sophisticated detectors that can cost triple the price or more. Your target was found at 70cm which is near the limit for most metal detectors, depending on the size of the gold items that were found.

According to LRL aficionados, their LRLs do not care about the soil. The "Phenomenon" is stronger than mineralised soil, and can be detected even for things buried at the bottom of a lake.

Best wishes,
J_P

Hi J Player, Prospecting is a good program to use for a White whith good results for gold.The only thing I am doing is changing 2 parametres in the factory's program.First is Ac sensitivity,we put it at 3/4 of max value and second is pre-amp gain about at 3/4 of max value again.
You turn these values down slowly if you see that your detector behaves eratically.Final adjustments depend on soil conditions.Don't forget to do air to ground regulations again before starting detecting.
When it comes to many coins put together then I think that the detector sees it as a whole of a metal.I beleive it makes no difference if it is coins put together or just one object of the same size.All it has to do whith the volume of the metal.Watch out if the metal has the shape of a thin band.
A long knife for example when detected at a medium depth might give a number simillar to a coin but it is not.In such a case volume is different but the detector see it the same and this is where experience needed.
Well LRLs don't suffer of things like that at last.
Many regards
g-sani

[bulsack]

If you want to get rich quick just invest in OKM on the stock market. There's a fool born every second.....

[J_Player]

When it comes to many coins put together then I think that the detector sees it as a whole of a metal.I beleive it makes no difference if it is coins put together or just one object of the same size.All it has to do whith the volume of the metal.Watch out if the metal has the shape of a thin band.Hi Sani,
You are wrong about this. VLF and PI detectors rely on eddy currents induced in the target metal to detect the resultant magnetic field emanating from the target. The shape of the target is important for detecting it. The volume of metal can be indirectly related, but not the determining factor.

Here is an experiment I actually performed that will prove exactly what I am saying:
Get two identical copper or brass coins (old USA pennies before the cladding years work for this). Then get a file and file one of the pennies into a pile of metal filings and set them aside. Next get a small plastic container like an old film can or other small cup-shaped plastic container. Mix up some 5-minute epoxy and pour a 1/8 inch deep puddle of epoxy into the plastic container. Then dump the copper filings into the epoxy and stir them around so the filings are evenly spread into the epoxy. When the epoxy is hard, pop it out of the cup. You now have two copper targets to test that have exactly the same volume of copper in them. One is a standard USA penny and the other is an epoxy coin with the exact same volume of copper in it, but filed into smaller pieces.

Now test them with your detector. Of course, the intact penny will give a good signal, and nearly nothing from the new copper filings coin. This is because the intact penny allows a larger circuit for eddy currents to travel than the tiny filings. And these eddy currents are what send out the magnetic fields that the detector is sensing.

To illustrate further, get some thin transformer wire and cut off a length that weighs exactly the same as your penny weighs. Then wind this wire into a 2 inch diameter coil and solder the ends together. Take a look at what kind of signal you get from this same volume of copper.

Then try drilling a hole in the center of your penny and see what happens to the signal.

I think you will find that volume is not the determining factor that allows VLF or PI metal detectors to find metal targets.

Best wishes,
J_P

[g-sani]

Hi J Player, I see what you mean my friend and I agree that volume is not the determining factor for a VLF.But is one serious parameter for sure.
But you are talking again about testing a detector using just a small ammount of metal.
In my last few posts everything I wrote is a try to explain my conclusion that gold in a large quantity is not detectable from VLFs.Silver and copper or bronze are detectable no matter the size.Gold wears very litle while all other precious metals make patina easily.Ion changes so fast when burried that dust of rust appears shortly.Thats why it repllies to most frequencies when frequency generator is used.Today is 5khz and tomorrow might be 6.4khz or whatever else.
To beleive what I am saying about gold there is no other way of seen it yourself.
Borrow as much gold as you can, burry it in the ground not very deep(few cms) and test VLFs.
But then when testing a VLF the samples must be burried for a long time if somebody wants to do it properly.Very difficult!
Most makers(White) say for VLFs that the object must be in the soil for more than 30 years.PI makers don't mension it at all.
PI tests in air and ground are very similar but this doesn't apply to VLFs.

you said above that.....To illustrate further, get some thin transformer wire and cut off a length that weighs exactly the same as your penny weighs. Then wind this wire into a 2 inch diameter coil and solder the ends together. Take a look at what kind of signal you get from this same volume of copper.

Of course it won't be the same J Player.It is like if you burry a 1meter straight wire vertically in the ground.Will you have the same results?of course not.
Tests should have some resonable standards but they have to be based in a logical manner which comes up from reallity and they way that treassures are hidden.I don't think that treassure would come up in a coil form.Hahahahaaaa.....
:lol::lol::lol::lol:
Regards g-sani

[J_Player]

Hi J Player, I see what you mean my friend.
But you are talking again about testing a detector using just a small ammount of metal.
In my last few posts everything I wrote is a try to explain my conclusion that gold in a large quantity is not detectable from VLFs.
To beleive there is no other way of see it yourself.Based on your post, I thought you were making the conclusion that volume of metal is what matters, regardless of whether it is a single object or a lot of smaller objects. Here is what you posted: "When it comes to many coins put together then I think that the detector sees it as a whole of a metal.I beleive it makes no difference if it is coins put together or just one object of the same size.All it has to do whith the volume of the metal". I have never heard this theory from White's or any other major metal detector company. What I have heard is a smaller collection of metal objects usually don't give as good a signal as a single target made from the same material and the same weight. I also heard that the shape and orientation of the target matter.

Borrow as much gold as you can, burry it in the ground not very deep(few cms) and test VLFs.
Anyway when testing a VLF the samples must be burried for a long time if somebody wants to do it properly.
Most makers(White) say that the object must be in the soil for more than 30 years.PI makers don't mension it at all
PI tests in air and ground are very similar but this doesn't apply to VLFs.The last time I tested large gold, I had a little over 40 ounces of gold coins. I had no trouble detecting them with a VLF or PI detector. But I was not able to bury these coins for 30 years, so I can't say what would change after 30 years in the ground. I remember reading where a top technical employee at White's wrote there is no difference between long time buried gold and fresh gold. Can you show me a reference where White's says "the object must be in the soil for more than 30 years"?

you said above that.....To illustrate further, get some thin transformer wire and cut off a length that weighs exactly the same as your penny weighs. Then wind this wire into a 2 inch diameter coil and solder the ends together. Take a look at what kind of signal you get from this same volume of copper.

Of course it won't be the same J Player.It is like if you burry a 1meter straight wire vertically in the ground.Will you have the same results?of course not.
Tests should have some resonable standards but they have to be based in a logical manner which comes up from reallity and they way that treassures are hidden.I don't think that treassure would come up in a coil form.Let's suppose the test of detecting a copper coil is not valid, because somebody labelled it as "transformer wire" which relates to electronic components.
Then look at the other tests I made.
Many prospectors look for gold nuggets that can come in all sizes or shapes. Some are roughly the shape of a coin. And a lot of gold comes in the form of pockets of gold dust. Aren't these forms of treasure that are found in real life? The reason I conducted the test I described was to see if it was true what the metal detector companies said about the shape of the metal targets you are hunting. I didn't have any gold that I wanted to turn into metal filings, so I used a penny instead. Have you ever tried this? Have you ever measured what happens to your signal when you drill a hole in a coin? My guess is you have not. Otherwise you would be convinced too.

Actually some treasures do come in this shape. Gold rings for example. These constitute a coil with a single turn, and provide a signal path for the eddy currents that is much better than an equal weight of gold pellets the size of rice grains. Many of the targets I find are in the shape of a ring, and they usually give a noticeably larger signal than an un-shaped chunk of the same material. Does this work for larger collections of gold? I think so, and I find it hard to believe that the VLF detection properties will change for a jar full of gold coins after it is buried 30 years.

But I have an open mind, so I will wait to read your reference where White's says it is true.

Best wishes,
J_P

[g-sani]

Allright J_P give me some time and I will show in which of their manuals(White) say that objects should be burried for a long period of time.
I admmit that I have never drilled a hole in a coin and I have never put granules of a metal piece together but I still say that I could not detect that gold coins.
I don't know what VLF you were used when you did the test whith the 40 ounches of gold.My self using my white and then a garrett missed the pot of the gold coins.We only found it when later we passed from there using a Lorenz Deepmax X3.
Since then I always have the PI whith me .
I know you are an open minded my friend and thats why I am still writing now.
Be patient, I will be back whith the reference.
Best wishes, g-sani

[g-sani]

Hi J_P, I had a quick look at whites dfx manual and it is there as well.
It doesn't say 30 years or more but it says that to achieve results regarding depth or corect discriminstion the object has to be burried for a number of years.
This in turn means that when you test on fresh burried or when you do air tests you are far away from real conditions.Here is the advantage of PIs.
Check it yourself, it is page 3 paragraph 10 The chapter is Assembly instructions.
http://media.whiteselectronics.com/manuals/DFX%20Manuals/DFX%20Spectrum%20Instruction%20Manual.pdf
I have read the manuals of Eagle Spectum, MXT XLT and DFX in the past and I am not in a position to remember after so many years where and in which one exactly I read it.
I have to go through them again like if I have to sit on exams.
I am sure some other user from one of the detectors mentioned above read it in one of these manuals as well and it might be able to verify it.
Apart from that experience I had I used to owe all this models and this is why I know what I am saying.
Anyway I think you do not have to be very clever to understand what is going on when you read the topic I mark you above.
So you have to reconsider my friend and to beleive that a jar full of gold coins can show up having different VLF properties after it is burried for many years.
And this is the main reason why I did not even think of doing any tests like the one you did.
Apart from that I beleive that these tests you did added knowledge to you related to VLFs no matter what Whites engineers say in their manuals.
Many regards, g-sani

[J_Player]

Hi J_P, I had a quick look at whites dfx manual and it is there as well.
It doesn't say 30 years or more but it says that to achieve results regarding depth or corect discriminstion the object has to be burried for a number of years.
This in turn means that when you test on fresh burried or when you do air tests you are far away from real conditions.Here is the advantage of PIs.
Check it yourself, it is page 3 paragraph 10 The chapter is Assembly instructions.
http://media.whiteselectronics.com/manuals/DFX%20Manuals/DFX%20Spectrum%20Instruction%20Manual.pdf
I have read the manuals of Eagle Spectum, MXT XLT and DFX in the past and I am not in a position to remember after so many years where and in which one exactly I read it.
I have to go through them again like if I have to sit on exams.
I am sure some other user from one of the detectors mentioned above read it in one of these manuals as well and it might be able to verify it.
Apart from that experience I had I used to owe all this models and this is why I know what I am saying.
Anyway I think you do not have to be very clever to understand what is going on when you read the topic I mark you above.
So you have to reconsider my friend and to beleive that a jar full of gold coins can show up having different VLF properties after it is burried for many years.
And this is the main reason why I did not even think of doing any tests like the one you did.
Apart from that I beleive that these tests you did added knowledge to you related to VLFs no matter what Whites engineers say in their manuals.
Many regards, g-saniHi g-sani,
Now, that's interesting!
I never thought of it that way. What they are saying is by digging a hole, you upset the ground to make it different than the surrounding ground. This brings to mind that the replaced soil will not have the same compaction as the surrounding soil, and if it is mineralized, it will probably not be as conductive as the surrounding undisturbed soil. I think this means this particular detector will detect the change in the ground consistency, and may automatically try to discriminate it out of view along with some sensitivity to the target? The XLT and DFX are among the White's detectors that use an algorithm to automatically adjust for ground variations, while many other detectors don't use automatic algorithms, or they use a simple adjustable delay rate.

As I said, I never liked the XLT because I never had time to learn the programs and controls very well, and my experience was I had difficulty finding targets that I could easily find on my other VLF and PI detectors. For one, I don't like the idea that the detector will be guessing what is good soil and bad soil and making corrections for it in a way I don't understand. I am sure the XLT is a good detector in the hands of someone experienced with it, but I prefer detectors with analog controls that I can set and tweak on the fly without using menus. I would rather set a trim pot for the ground balance and adjust it periodically as needed. My guess is the automatic algorithms in the XLT and other similar detectors can be confused when they come to disturbed ground and automatically discriminate out targets in the disturbed area. This doesn't happen with the manual versions. You may hear the disturbed ground, but you will not lose your settings due to automatic adjusting.

The way the ground can make detecting eddy currents more difficult is by having mineralization that requires more ground balancing. By increasing the ground balance, you are also reducing your detection depth. My experience is that PI detectors have been able to detect a target deeper than VLF in highly mineralized ground. But I have not used all the most exotic detectors, so there may be VLFs that do better than the PIs that I don't know about. One exception I remember is where I found a 1 inch thick layer of dry black sand at the beach that made my White's surf PI Pro useless. But a VLF detector was able to find silver and copper coins below the black sand if I adjusted the ground balance to near maximum mineralization and also held the coil about 4 inches above the ground. In this case, the maximum coin detection depth was about 5 inches below the surface.

But regardless of the ground mineralization level, I still think the shape of the target is important for determining what signal strength you will find. The physics of eddy currents does not change for long time or freshly buried metal things. The ground may trick the detector electronics into reducing its detection ability, but the buried metal will still obey the laws that govern eddy currents generating magnetic fields. My guess is you would get a stronger signal from a 10 inch gold plate held parallel to the coil than you would get from the same gold plate cut into a 1/4 inch pieces and placed in a cup, whether buried in mineralized soil or in the air.

The tests I made were air tests. I also tested the samples in dry beach sand and found the same results. So all my tests were made in equal conditions. I also made the same tests using a 1/4 inch steel nut compared to filings from a steel nut, and several other metal objects. I can say with certainty that all these objects were easier to detect when they are in a single piece instead of a lot of little pieces.

Thank you for researching the White's statements about fresh and long time buried targets. I think it answered the question why I don't like the XLT model. :)

Best wishes,
J_P

[g-sani]

Hallo J_P, what I believe is that if we take a long burried metal from the ground that has already some patina on it and burry it somewhere else to do tests whith a VLF then it will be much more detectable than the same metal put in the same place and depth but free from patina.
Gold wears as well but very very slowly regarding time.Its patina(if any) is invisible to the eye and this special attribute of gold is responsible for its special behaviour when it comes to detection methods especially whith VLFs.
Whites even talk about different adjustments for gold of different carats in order to be detectable from their VLFs.
Is this because their machines are completely different than the rest?
No I don't think so.Why do they do it then?
Probably they are more honnest from the rest whith their customers and this sounds more likely.Admitting something like that the only thing that it doesn't do is advertising.
Well even companies making LRLs that use a frequency generator talk about different frequencies for different carats of gold.
Have you ever thought why they don't even mention things like that when it comes to other metals?
The answer is simple. Because they don't have any problems at all detecting them.
Treasures have been recovered around the world from people and some of them used LRLs and VLFs.But most of these treasures contained some other metal apart from gold and this alone was the reason that made them detectable.
Gold alone is very difficult to be detected from VLFs and about the same applies to most LRLs as well.
But then I think of course it should be like that,to justify gold's high value.;)
Αnd mind you that there is nothing in the nature that can disolve gold.That says it all!
Wish you good luck, g-sani

[WM6]

The answer is simple. Because they don't have any problems at all detecting them.



The answer is even simplest. Because they don't have detect it at all.



Treasures have been recovered around the world from people and some of them used LRLs.



Yes, according principle: the same person buried gold and the same person than discovered it. In other cases this is only sweet LRL dreams.


Reason why fresh buried gold coins can not be detected by VLFs as deep as long buried, are mainly two:

1 by freshly buried gold coin is destroyed crystal structure of the soil (whic can be established over a long period of time and may include a conductive metal ions and

2 freshly buried gold coin can not have full contact with the crystal structure of the soil even if this would not be demolished, (including the establishment of this joint takes time).

Long buried gold coin has established around own surface the crystal structure of the soil and has also established contact with this crystal structure. Eddy currents, (depending on the composition of the crystal structure of soil) beat outside the surface area of gold coins in crystal structure, and thus build a stronger response in greater depth.

[J_Player]

Hallo J_P, what I believe is that if we take a long burried metal from the ground that has already some patina on it and burry it somewhere else to do tests whith a VLF then it will be much more detectable than the same metal put in the same place and depth but free from patina.Have you actually done this test? Can you show documentation of this test being done by anyone?

Gold wears as well but very very slowly regarding time.Its patina(if any) is invisible to the eye and this special attribute of gold is responsible for its special behaviour when it comes to detection methods especially whith VLFs.
Whites even talk about different adjustments for gold of different carats in order to be detectable from their VLFs.
Is this because their machines are completely different than the rest?
No I don't think so.Why do they do it then?The reason why gold of different karats are detected differently is because the alloys of the different karats have different conductivity than pure gold. By adding silver or copper, the gold alloy becomes more conductive, and will be able to develop stronger eddy currents than pure gold. This means the lower karat alloy will give a stronger signal than the higher karat alloy. The idea that patina will improve the signal is false. Patina on gold consists of scratching/marring to the gold surface, and sometimes dissolution of some a small trace of the alloying elements into salts at the surface. If, for example a thin film of copper sulfate formed on the surface of a 10K gold alloy ring in the ground that appeared as a patina, the coating of copper sulfate in the "patina" would be less conductive than the copper it was dissolved from, and would work to reduce the strength of the eddy current signal by an un-recognizable amount. So you would probably not see a detectable difference on your VLF detector due to patina. Or if you saw a difference, it would be a weaker signal.
Probably they are more honnest from the rest with their customers and this sounds more likely.Admitting something like that the only thing that it doesn't do is advertising.This is not even true. Why not send a letter to the head of White's technical department and ask if it is true, or if they are talking about the conductivity and ability of metals to generate detectable eddy currents depending on the alloy variations.
Well even companies making LRLs that use a frequency generator talk about different frequencies for different carats of gold.
Have you ever thought why they don't even mention things like that when it comes to other metals?
The answer is simple. Because they don't have any problems at all detecting them.
Treasures have been recovered around the world from people and some of them used LRLs and VLFs.But most of these treasures contained some other metal apart from gold and this alone was the reason that made them detectable.
Gold alone is very difficult to be detected from VLFs and about the same applies to most LRLs as well.Pure gold is about as hard to detect as scrap aluminum buried in the ground for a VLF detector. It is not very difficult to detect. It is common knowledge to most detectorists that ordinary jewelry alloys of gold are detectable with similar signals as scrap aluminum alloys. This is because the conductivity is similar for gold alloy and scrap aluminum. By making the gold pure, it becomes a little less conductive than when alloyed, but not enough to make it extremely difficult to detect. See here for a list of electrical conductivity for pure elements: http://environmentalchemistry.com/yogi/periodic/electrical.html
You will see that pure gold has a similar conductivity as pure aluminum, and is still among the most conductive elements along with copper and silver, which are maybe 1/3 more conductive.
But then I think of course it should be like that,to justify gold's high value.;)
Αnd mind you that there is nothing in the nature that can disolve gold.That says it all!You are absolutely wrong about this. Tons of gold are dissolved in nature. Scientist have discovered more than one chemical mechanism that dissolves gold in nature without the intervention of man-made products. I have already produced links to thousands of web pages showing how scientists documented the natural dissolution of metallic gold in the ground. In fact there is a multimillion dollar industry based on measuring the amount of gold that was naturally dissolved in the ground in order to locate where gold is.

But if you wish to ignore what VLF detector circuit designers and scientists have discovered, we have a local self-proclaimed expert who has a more agreable fact about what happens at the gold surface:
"Gold is the most powerful 'self defensive' metal when it comes to avoid any harm to its structure, such as rust, oxidation, etc. Its DNA produces a substance which coats the metal to fight against those 'threats'."
From: http://www.geotech1.com/forums/showpost.php?p=84058&postcount=41

Perhaps the alleged substance the "gold DNA" produces to "coat the metal" is what makes it so detectable after being buried for a number of years? :rolleyes:

Best wishes,
J_P

[g-sani]

Hi J_P, may be the way you see things does some good to yourself but please let me beleive things the way I do when it comes to myself.
The reason?
Theory proves itself only when passes through practical aspects.
Personally I discovered Treasure quite a few times the last few years and if it is God's Will this will keep on going.
No it isn't pure luck as many beleive, it is many other things that must come into account until you hit success when Treasure Hunting.
Regards g-sani

[J_Player]

Hi J_P, may be the way you see things does some good to yourself but please let me beleive things the way I do when it comes to myself.
The reason?
Theory proves itself only when passes through practical aspects.
Personally I discovered Treasure quite a few times the last few years and if it is God's Will this will keep on going.
No it isn't pure luck as many beleive, it is many other things that must come into account until you hit success when Treasure Hunting.
Regards g-saniHi g-sani,
You have always been free to believe what you want like everyone else. My posts that contradict what you posted are only pointing out to other readers what the facts discovered by scientists and electronic engineers are. These are not meant to disturb your collection of beliefs.

The reason I post information stating that gold dissolves in nature is because it has been proven by practical tests in the field that this is happening for thousands of tons of buried gold all over the world. And because this is a technical forum in which the rules state that we must "be factual". If we make an extraordinary claim, be prepared to get challenged. http://www.geotech1.com/forums/showpost.php?p=36877&postcount=1
Sure, it seems extraordinary to hear that gold dissolves in nature. And I have been challenged by skeptics about this before. So when I make these posts, these are not simply opinions of how I see things, they are facts that have been demonstrated many times by scientists and technicians actually measuring samples of excavated natural soil to see how much gold has dissolved in it. The same goes for the properties of metal alloys that metal detector electronic engineers have measured for tuning their discrimination circuits. The eddy current properties and detector electronics I described can be verified by sending an email to any engineer who designs the circuits at the major metal detector companies.

I think the reason Carl-NC made the rule to be factual in the Remote Sensing forum is because he wanted non-registered readers to be able to see both sides of the controversial topics we so often find here. Maybe he thought it is good to see posts showing the facts that can be demonstrated with practical tests as well as posts with just opinions based on anecdotal stories. This way they the non-registered readers can choose from more than one opinion of what they want to believe, just as you and the other people making posts are free to choose what they believe.

Best wishes,
J_P

[g-sani]

Hi J_P, what I said in my post above is that there is nothing in nature that can disolve gold.
I thought it was obvious that I am talking about some other "element" that can be found in nature here and not talking about 'if gold disolves in nature or not'.
May be I did not put it down the right way and you have to forgive my English.

[J_Player]

Hi J_P, what I said in my post above is that there is nothing in nature that can disolve gold.
I thought it was obvious that I am talking about some other "element" that can be found in nature here and not talking about 'if gold disolves in nature or not'.
May be I did not put it down the right way and you have to forgive my English.Hi g-sani,
Are you saying there is nothing in nature that can dissolve gold?

It was not obvious to me that you are talking about elements. There are some elements in nature that can dissolve gold, and there are also chemical compounds found in nature that can dissolve gold. These compounds in nature that dissolve gold are made of various elements that are also found in nature.

Here is a simple example of some other "element" that can be found in nature that can dissolve gold: Mercury metal. Pure metallic mercury occurs in mineral bodies as well as does mercury compounds that are combined with other natural elements. Get 1 cc of mercury and get a small piece of gold the size of a grain of rice. Drop the piece of gold in the 1cc of mercury and stir it around. See if the gold dissolves. Caution: Do not try this experiment on expensive jewelry. You may destroy an heirloom.

There are also other elements and compounds in nature that can dissolve gold. For other metals to dissolve gold, we need to have higher temperatures such as are found in lava flows. Much of the natural gold that has been mined was dissolved in silver and copper to make alloys. In the case of natural gold nuggts, the gold can be well over 90% pure which would suggest other elements dissolved in the gold. But there is also gold that dissolves in amounts less than 50% to form nuggets where gold is not the main element in the alloy. We find that at many copper mines, a small percentage of gold is extracted from the copper, which can be sold for enough money to pay for the entire refining operation, and allow the resulting copper to be sold with less overhead costs.

If you are also referring to other "elements" in nature that are combined as compounds, there are many non-metallic compounds found in nature that dissolve gold, such as cyanide and organic acids found in the ground. In fact these compounds are dissolving gold as we speak without any un-natural processes occurring.

I can provide a lot of data to show these elements and compounds are found in nature and they dissolve gold. Can you provide data to suggest they can't?

Best wishes,
J_P

[g-sani]

Sorry I am a bit short of time to look for reference J_P.
Sometime later I might do it.
Thank you again for all info
g-sani