The so-called PHENOMENON

[Qiaozhi]

What do we know about the so-called PHENOMENON?

Following Hung's attempt at debunkering (presumably he actually means "debunking", but that's another issue) by posting a highly suspect video, the description of this PHENOMENON is now even more confused.

Here's what I mean:

Do you remember Hung's post, where he stated: "Gold is the most powerful 'self defensive' metal when it comes to avoid any harm to its structure, such as rust, oxidation, etc. Its DNA produces a substance which coats the metal to fight against those 'threats'."
From: http://www.geotech1.com/forums/showp...8&postcount=41 (http://www.geotech1.com/forums/showpost.php?p=84058&postcount=41)

This substance would make LRL detecting impossible, because the gold is protected against the annoying cyanide-producing bacteria that dissolves other buried metals.
If (according to Hung) the gold DNA protects the gold against corrosion, then gold ions will not dissolve in the ground or float in a convenient cloud 7.2 feet above the buried gold. So the obvious conclusion is that ionic detectors cannot work. But according to LRL theory, if there are no gold ions dissolving in the soil, then the soil will have no anomaly nor will there be an electrostatic, ground voltage, or magnetic anomaly. The only way left to find the gold is to detect it with a metal detector.

In the video it is demonstrated (rather clumsily) that the PD can detect a gold ring at some unbelievable distance. Analysis of this video has shown it to be an unreliable source of information. Not only is the detection taking place indoors, but it is goes against all that has been stated previously by LRL proponents, and most strongly by Hung. How many times have we heard statements to the effect that Carl must take his FG80 to the middle of nowhere to perform a proper test, and not to test it indoors or with the electronic dog fence activated? But here we see a similar device operating quite reliably inside the house, even though it's not buried, and presumably not emitting ions (or more recently electrons).

Personally, if I was going to fabricate a pseudoscientific theory to describe detection of gold at unbelievable distances, I would at least make an attempt to be consistent. Now recently we are starting to hear stories of detection at 10km.

What does anyone else think?
Truth or sheer bunkem?

[ivconic]

I don't "think" and i don't "beleive" - I KNOW it is charlatanism and pseudo science. I have seen hundreds of lrl devices and apparatuses in last 20 years. NONE of those ever worked in front of my eyes. NONE! NEITHER ONE! And we did numerous double blind tests, measurements, experiments.... it would need 1000 pages me to tell and explain what we done so far to establish right attitude upon this subject. This is not working (no matter which one and what method used)! Period.

[Clondike Clad]

What do we know about the so-called PHENOMENON?

Following Hung's attempt at debunkering (presumably he actually means "debunking", but that's another issue) by posting a highly suspect video, the description of this PHENOMENON is now even more confused.

Here's what I mean:

Do you remember Hung's post, where he stated: "Gold is the most powerful 'self defensive' metal when it comes to avoid any harm to its structure, such as rust, oxidation, etc. Its DNA produces a substance which coats the metal to fight against those 'threats'."
From: http://www.geotech1.com/forums/showp...8&postcount=41 (http://www.geotech1.com/forums/showpost.php?p=84058&postcount=41)

This substance would make LRL detecting impossible, because the gold is protected against the annoying cyanide-producing bacteria that dissolves other buried metals.
If (according to Hung) the gold DNA protects the gold against corrosion, then gold ions will not dissolve in the ground or float in a convenient cloud 7.2 feet above the buried gold. So the obvious conclusion is that ionic detectors cannot work. But according to LRL theory, if there are no gold ions dissolving in the soil, then the soil will have no anomaly nor will there be an electrostatic, ground voltage, or magnetic anomaly. The only way left to find the gold is to detect it with a metal detector.

In the video it is demonstrated (rather clumsily) that the PD can detect a gold ring at some unbelievable distance. Analysis of this video has shown it to be an unreliable source of information. Not only is the detection taking place indoors, but it is goes against all that has been stated previously by LRL proponents, and most strongly by Hung. How many times have we heard statements to the effect that Carl must take his FG80 to the middle of nowhere to perform a proper test, and not to test it indoors or with the electronic dog fence activated? But here we see a similar device operating quite reliably inside the house, even though it's not buried, and presumably not emitting ions (or more recently electrons).

Personally, if I was going to fabricate a pseudoscientific theory to describe detection of gold at unbelievable distances, I would at least make an attempt to be consistent. Now recently we are starting to hear stories of detection at 10km.

What does anyone else think?
Truth or sheer bunkem?
That word "but can anyone tell us what the signal is. or how can we look at te signal on a oscope.All we know it is called a PHENOMENON.
So what do you LOOK FOR OR AT.

[Theseus]

What do we know about the so-called PHENOMENON?

Probably the most important attribute of "the phenomenon" is the fact that only a select few individuals can experience it (or report they have experienced it). That fact, in and of itself, says a lot. :D

Following Hung's attempt at debunkering (presumably he actually means "debunking", but that's another issue) by posting a highly suspect video, the description of this PHENOMENON is now even more confused.Hung, or his video, neither debunked or debunkered anything, so we are still waiting for that promise/threat to be fulfilled. ;)

[Fred]

I don ´t know why it is so dificult to show a video of the phenomenon being detected...not 10km, not 2km, not 200m, but only ...20m away! Yes ladies and gentlemen, only 20m away would be enough to convince the large audience of the spectacular discovery made by Hung and his team.
Yet...no convincing video i have seen from hung.:cry:

I WANT TO BE DEBUNKERED!

[Fred]

Duplicated, sorry , TBD

[Esteban]

Probably the most important attribute of "the phenomenon" is the fact that only a select few individuals can experience it (or report they have experienced it). That fact, in and of itself, says a lot. :D

Hung, or his video, neither debunked or debunkered anything, so we are still waiting for that promise/threat to be fulfilled. ;)

"The select" knows because go outdoor and study it. Maybe is very difficult to reproduce a "phenomenon" caused via chemical reaction in soil, disturbance of the Earth magnetic field nearby metals, environmental conditions, humidity and conductivity of the soils, etc.

[Esteban]

I don't "think" and i don't "beleive" - I KNOW it is charlatanism and pseudo science. I have seen hundreds of lrl devices and apparatuses in last 20 years. NONE of those ever worked in front of my eyes. NONE! NEITHER ONE! And we did numerous double blind tests, measurements, experiments.... it would need 1000 pages me to tell and explain what we done so far to establish right attitude upon this subject. This is not working (no matter which one and what method used)! Period.

Also I test 100 and failed, but also made other devices and detects at certain distance. But, of course, in big number failed, the few detects.

[J_Player]

I don't "think" and i don't "beleive" - I KNOW it is charlatanism and pseudo science. I have seen hundreds of lrl devices and apparatuses in last 20 years. NONE of those ever worked in front of my eyes. NONE! NEITHER ONE! And we did numerous double blind tests, measurements, experiments.... it would need 1000 pages me to tell and explain what we done so far to establish right attitude upon this subject. This is not working (no matter which one and what method used)! Period.Hundreds of LRL devices in the last 20 years that are non working is pretty strong proof. But it would take only one demonstration working in front of your eyes to redeem the name of LRLs and prove the last 20 years were not good LRLs. But there is no person on earth who is willing to show an LRL recovering treasures in front of your eyes today.

Of course, hung has given the reason why LRLs cannot find gold: "Gold is the most powerful 'self defensive' metal when it comes to avoid any harm to its structure, such as rust, oxidation, etc. Its DNA produces a substance which coats the metal to fight against those 'threats'."
From: http://www.geotech1.com/forums/showp...8&postcount=41

Since the substance produced by gold's DNA coats the metal and protects it against rust, oxidation, etc, trace amounts of gold ions cannot dissolve into the soil like other metals do when buried long times. Of course, this makes it impossible to form gold ions or establish an anomaly in the soil like other metals do. This suggests that perhaps hung was not making true statements when he described his LRLs detecting gold at long distances. If long time buried gold cannot shed ions to form an anomaly in the soil, then the only way hung could have detected gold is with his metal detector.

Hmmm... I wonder what this substance produced by gold's DNA is called... gold wax?

Best wishes,
J_P


"Maybe this is the debunkering"

[Qiaozhi]

"The select" knows because go outdoor and study it. Maybe is very difficult to reproduce a "phenomenon" caused via chemical reaction in soil, disturbance of the Earth magnetic field nearby metals, environmental conditions, humidity and conductivity of the soils, etc.
Thanks Esteban. You have just confirmed my suspicions, but you did not complete the sentence: "The select" knows because go outdoor and study it,... while some stay indoors and make suspect videos. :rolleyes:

The problem I have with the so-called PHENOMENON is that there is no consistency in the theories. That's why I respect your experimental nature, because you claim the PHENOMENON exists, but at the same time you do not put forward outrageous pseudo-scientific claptrap to explain why. Unlike someone else that we know, who is now claiming detection from 10km. Remember - extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. It would also help if the same person did not contradict himself in subsequent posts.

[Esteban]

Thanks Esteban. You have just confirmed my suspicions, but you did not complete the sentence: "The select" knows because go outdoor and study it,... while some stay indoors and make suspect videos. :rolleyes:

The problem I have with the so-called PHENOMENON is that there is no consistency in the theories. That's why I respect your experimental nature, because you claim the PHENOMENON exists, but at the same time you do not put forward outrageous pseudo-scientific claptrap to explain why. Unlike someone else that we know, who is now claiming detection from 10km. Remember - extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. It would also help if the same person did not contradict himself in subsequent posts.

Is possible to detect outdoor at distance, but no with my devices.

All persons wich made such videos and post here is about suspicions, and maybe, from my part, wish no made such videos, even if somebody said "I never see a video wich shows recovering of targets with electronic LRL"...

If some things or "phenomenons" contradict the theory, well, not all is explained, there are more infinite things don't be explained that the things wich has been explained.

[Qiaozhi]

..... there are more infinite things don't be explained that the things wich has been explained.
I cannot dispute that statement. ;)

[Fred]

All persons wich made such videos and post here is about suspicions, and maybe, from my part, wish no made such videos,
That´s strange :shocked: Why do you wish such video should not be made, if it shows CLEARLY how the device works ?
Of course i am talking about a real video, not the one we are thinking about, wich completely ruins the remains of credit (??) of the one who made it, as long as any serious LRL experimenter like you.
After all this is the best way to convince some people to study the "phenomenon", and learn about it...

[ivconic]

I don ´t know why it is so dificult to show a video of the phenomenon being detected...not 10km, not 2km, not 200m, but only ...20m away! Yes ladies and gentlemen, only 20m away would be enough to convince the large audience of the spectacular discovery made by Hung and his team.
Yet...no convincing video i have seen from hung.:cry:

I WANT TO BE DEBUNKERED!


Fred oh Fred! What 20m !?!?!? No...show me device which will accuratelly detect SINGLE GOLD COIN at 1m depth and i guarantee it will be huge market break through ever! White's,Minelab,Fisher, Garrett and Cscope will bust in no time...just show me that device! :lol:
People, friends, fellas....and "enemies"...what we are talking about here???
What "meters"??? We all do know very good what are endest limits of REAL coin detection in SOIL.....30-40cm..and that is all. First metal detector, LRL or any other kind of apparatus which can beat that depth would be world bestseller! BUT...must be provable in front of anybodys eyes, in any country, in any soil....in hands of any operater.

[ivconic]

Hundreds of LRL devices in the last 20 years that are non working is pretty strong proof. But it would take only one demonstration working in front of your eyes to redeem the name of LRLs and prove the last 20 years were not good LRLs. But there is no person on earth who is willing to show an LRL recovering treasures in front of your eyes today.......

J_P



Yes, that is true. I agree 100%. And i am ready to spitt on my last 20 years, just like that. Only need to see workable LRL which is able to accuratelly detect 1 gold coin at 1m depth in soil.

[Qiaozhi]

Yes, that is true. I agree 100%. And i am ready to spitt on my last 20 years, just like that. Only need to see workable LRL which is able to accuratelly detect 1 gold coin at 1m depth in soil.

Finding a 1Kg hoard of coins buried at 24" would be a start.

http://www.garysdetecting.co.uk/hoard_test.htm

[Fred]

Fred oh Fred! What 20m !?!?!? No...show me device which will accuratelly detect SINGLE GOLD COIN at 1m depth and i guarantee it will be huge market break through ever!
Hi Ivconic
I was being sarcastic about the 20m, but i am still interested in the possiblitity that log time burried metal could induce an anomaly in the natural electric field above earth (to resume)...
Instead of detecting the metal itself, (that as we know can only be detected at short distance),detecting this effect could be done farther away.

[ivconic]

Actually it can. It is producing some sort of "hallo" or simillar...right now i can not explain what it is. But...benefits from that "hallo" effect or whatever, are not great..at least not so great to allow you to detect coin at 10 times or more distance than without it.
I already posted some of my experiences...somewhere on this forum.
Let me repeat one example;
once i detected and dug iron arrow from 30-35cm (if i remember good) in the ground. Soil was wet so there was some mud on arrow. I rubed it with fingers and removed mud. It was dry in a minute and almost clean from mud. Than i checked it in air...to detect. Detector bairly detected it at 20cm distance in air??? So...again i checked hole and arround it, to see if there is some other metal. No...nothing.
This i experienced also many times later on the fields. With various items and various types of metal. Longer the period, metal was in soil - better detection and more stronger hallo effect.
But... usually i do collect old roman coins, 1500-2000 years being in the ground. Enough to produce strong hallo effect? Yes, i think more than enough.So...all the benefits from it, i've seen so far were 3-5cm more in ground for single coin. Larger items also...
Hoard....recently burried could be detected at 40-50cm with so so detector (depends of hoard quantity and area that it poops, but let's take 50 coins hoard as an example). But hoard (same one) which is 1500 years in the ground can successfully be detected at 60-80 cm.....but not 2m...3m..20m...or 100m !!!! Not possiblle!
So...you see; there are some benefits from hallo effect.....but not that great.

[Esteban]

Actually it can. It is producing some sort of "hallo" or simillar...right now i can not explain what it is. But...benefits from that "hallo" effect or whatever, are not great..at least not so great to allow you to detect coin at 10 times or more distance than without it.
I already posted some of my experiences...somewhere on this forum.
Let me repeat one example;
once i detected and dug iron arrow from 30-35cm (if i remember good) in the ground. Soil was wet so there was some mud on arrow. I rubed it with fingers and removed mud. It was dry in a minute and almost clean from mud. Than i checked it in air...to detect. Detector bairly detected it at 20cm distance in air??? So...again i checked hole and arround it, to see if there is some other metal. No...nothing.
This i experienced also many times later on the fields. With various items and various types of metal. Longer the period, metal was in soil - better detection and more stronger hallo effect.
But... usually i do collect old roman coins, 1500-2000 years being in the ground. Enough to produce strong hallo effect? Yes, i think more than enough.So...all the benefits from it, i've seen so far were 3-5cm more in ground for single coin. Larger items also...
Hoard....recently burried could be detected at 40-50cm with so so detector (depends of hoard quantity and area that it poops, but let's take 50 coins hoard as an example). But hoard (same one) which is 1500 years in the ground can successfully be detected at 60-80 cm.....but not 2m...3m..20m...or 100m !!!! Not possiblle!
So...you see; there are some benefits from hallo effect.....but not that great.

Of course, not with an only method... :)

[ivconic]

"Hallo" effect or whatever we called it, exist. No doubts.
But main question here is ; can we detect/locate it at long distances? I never succed that, neither anybody else i know. That is the problem.

[Morgan]

That´s strange :shocked: Why do you wish such video should not be made, if it shows CLEARLY how the device works ?
Of course i am talking about a real video, not the one we are thinking about, wich completely ruins the remains of credit (??) of the one who made it, as long as any serious LRL experimenter like you.
After all this is the best way to convince some people to study the "phenomenon", and learn about it...
TO ALL SKEPTICS IN THIS FORUM

I sugest all the LRL skeptics take one final decision to stop doubts about the so called PHENOMENON. This decision consist in one of you come here to my field test and try the Pistoldetektor,and transmit to the other skeptics all the information about this PHENOMENON,LRL behavior,deep of the targets,why its possible to find other metal alloys,etc,can record allin one film.

Special role

1-Targets in my field test cant be dig out.

2-PD cant be study in the inner parts(Omega+Ferrites) or dismantel,in respect to Alonso the inventor.

3-Other targets out of my field test can be dig out and study.

When the SKEPTICS team find someone to come here,just let me know and i will give my adress and meet with the person.

Hope its useful for study the PHENOMENON,i´m sure its not ionic but electromagnetic disturbances produced with hig conductive metals underground.

Regards to all

[Qiaozhi]

Hi Morgan,

What country do you live in?

[Morgan]

Fred oh Fred! What 20m !?!?!? No...show me device which will accuratelly detect SINGLE GOLD COIN at 1m depth and i guarantee it will be huge market break through ever! White's,Minelab,Fisher, Garrett and Cscope will bust in no time...just show me that device! :lol:
People, friends, fellas....and "enemies"...what we are talking about here???
What "meters"??? We all do know very good what are endest limits of REAL coin detection in SOIL.....30-40cm..and that is all. First metal detector, LRL or any other kind of apparatus which can beat that depth would be world bestseller! BUT...must be provable in front of anybodys eyes, in any country, in any soil....in hands of any operater.
I know that...
And i propose one agreement :

After skeptics try the PD,and find it useful for TH,if they want to know all the secrets SHOULD PAY TO ALONSO FOR THIS INFORMATIONS(only if he agree). I want one part of the production,other for Esteban and Alonso should be contacted to start the massive production.

[ivconic]

That is good idea. But test must be performed far away from your soil. Soil, terrain... randomly choosen by man who is about to visit you.
But, seriously i have doubts that anybody is ready to spend such money on trip and lost many days to some trivial pursuit like that.
I guess you are also counting on that. So less chance that ever to happen.
Besides...in the past we seen same claims upon almost all Mineoro products. Many forum members already had chance to see those devices in action, and....nothing! Not working... So..?
You must understand our scepticism. So many contraproofs and none of real proofs. Neither one.

[Esteban]

"Hallo" effect or whatever we called it, exist. No doubts.
But main question here is ; can we detect/locate it at long distances? I never succed that, neither anybody else i know. That is the problem.


Ivconic, look, don't know in reality what happens, but is possible with no much sensitive method cover 5 meters, but deppend what system you use. The more long I "invent" was capable to find treasure of all silver items at 70 m and at depth only 70 cm. With this sensitive system, electric lines are problem. If you isolate, don't detect or distance is "short". This system use as input CA3046 array transistors, with gain 1,000 times and 1 uA sensibility. Of course, this is not the only circuit. The signal out of the CA3046 go to a stretcher based on 741. Output of this go to the beep generator, any stage with independent battery, this is important.

Regards

Esteban

[Morgan]

Hi Ivconic
I was being sarcastic about the 20m, but i am still interested in the possiblitity that log time burried metal could induce an anomaly in the natural electric field above earth (to resume)...
Instead of detecting the metal itself, (that as we know can only be detected at short distance),detecting this effect could be done farther away.
Yes,sure PD detects at long distance the anomaly caused by conductive metals.This distances are impossible for normal metal detector.
My experiences with PD everybody from this forum know very well. I realy dont know very well if PD can detect 1k gold 200m,but i´m sure 15m is possible. Also small gold or silver objects can be detected at distances like 1m to 5m or more. Depth can be near the surface or more deep.but i never found one single coin buried more than 50cm,and the hoard of silver coins was 80cm underground...

[ivconic]

I know that...
And i propose one agreement :

After skeptics try the PD,and find it useful for TH,if they want to know all the secrets SHOULD PAY TO ALONSO FOR THIS INFORMATIONS(only if he agree). I want one part of the production,other for Esteban and Alonso should be contacted to start the massive production.

It is not a problem to pay for such revolutionary device. It would not be a problem at all. If i am sure i can find hoards of roman coins and jewelry with such device...heck..it will repay all the costs with one single find.
I am sure there are people on this forum with fat bank accounts. No problem to collect money for something payable. But first we must see and experience such device..right?

[J_Player]

I know that...
And i propose one agreement :

After skeptics try the PD,and find it useful for TH,if they want to know all the secrets SHOULD PAY TO ALONSO FOR THIS INFORMATIONS(only if he agree). I want one part of the production,other for Esteban and Alonso should be contacted to start the massive production.Hi Morgan,
Alonso cannot legally be paid for production of his machine, because the circuitry he used is in violation of international copyright laws. He must use a design that originated from himself, and secure copyright and patent protection before he can legally charge money for for a massive production. He could also pay royalties to the owners of the copyrights to use their circuitry if they choose to licence their designs to him.

Best wishes,
J_P

[Morgan]

Hi Morgan,

What country do you live in?
I imagine you already know,im from Portugal.
If you come for some holidays,let me know;)

[Esteban]

A question: patent expires in 17 years?

[Qiaozhi]

I imagine you already know,im from Portugal.
If you come for some holidays,let me know;)
Yes - I probably already knew that ... just forgot. ;)

I have been to Portugal many years ago. Very nice country.

[Morgan]

That is good idea. But test must be performed far away from your soil. Soil, terrain... randomly choosen by man who is about to visit you.
But, seriously i have doubts that anybody is ready to spend such money on trip and lost many days to some trivial pursuit like that.
I guess you are also counting on that. So less chance that ever to happen.
Besides...in the past we seen same claims upon almost all Mineoro products. Many forum members already had chance to see those devices in action, and....nothing! Not working... So..?
You must understand our scepticism. So many contraproofs and none of real proofs. Neither one.



I understand you very well.Personaly i dont trust Mineoro devices 100%,i told many times in this forum,they are useles to find small gold objects,Mineoro propaganda is not true,it deceive many clients.
About PD,its another story,it works with small and big objects.
I´m not counting with nothing,i´m not afraid of nothing,if for some reason someone decide to come,i´m open to show Pistoldetektor working as LRL,and that all.
If you need some invitation,also is possible. Some friends from Russia already saw PD working,and they are very interested,but they also have LRL who works.

[ivconic]

Ivconic, look, don't know in reality what happens, but is possible with no much sensitive method cover 5 meters, but deppend what system you use. The more long I "invent" was capable to find treasure of all silver items at 70 m and at depth only 70 cm. With this sensitive system, electric lines are problem. If you isolate, don't detect or distance is "short". This system use as input CA3046 array transistors, with gain 1,000 times and 1 uA sensibility. Of course, this is not the only circuit. The signal out of the CA3046 go to a stretcher based on 741. Output of this go to the beep generator, any stage with independent battery, this is important.

Regards

Esteban


I am sure that you made much experiments on this subject. Also i am sure that you made many various devices so far. Most of those devices do react somehow on something, i do beleive that.
What i can not accept is claim that you or anybody else can accuratelly detect one single coin at....1m in soil, BUT; knowing for sure and being 80% sure it is coin, before digging!
What i want to say is:
it is easy to make device which will "squeek", "crack" , "peep" or indicate on some other way, some "detection" of something.
We have here Zahori..among other devices. It is also "squeeking" arround wildly. So...by random and pretty wild coincidency operator can walk arround and dig holes, and certainly he will discover some item in the ground, sooner or later. So..it is good chance, acting like that, to dig many good items. Especially if that location has rich history, so many good items and finds are present there. Than that prospector will be 100% sure his device was accurate and usefull. Even if that device was empty plastic box with ordinary radio telescopic antenna....
I rather beleive that your results were achieved by strange and wild coincidence and possiblly due fact that you live and prospecting in historically rich area.
That's why is neccessary to test such devices in another regions, far away from your place.
Me also...i live in very interesting area where ancient roman roads are crossing. There are numerous locations and sites. There are many sites where i dont need detector at all. Just need to walk and dig randomly. On each 10 holes i will discover at least 5 nice finds. Without any device by me. So..if i took Zahori with me, it would "squeek" randomly arround, i would dig holes, find nice finds...and at the end of a day i would be 100% sure Zahori was accurate and powerfull!!?? Although, actually, it was 100% uselles..
Understand me? That is , what i beleive is, a case here.

[Morgan]

It is not a problem to pay for such revolutionary device. It would not be a problem at all. If i am sure i can find hoards of roman coins and jewelry with such device...heck..it will repay all the costs with one single find.
I am sure there are people on this forum with fat bank accounts. No problem to collect money for something payable. But first we must see and experience such device..right?
Í have the LRL Pistoldetektor,and realy can make a fortune searching for treasures,but this costs a lot of money in travelings,as you should know,treasures are dificult to find ...actualy i saw them in places that you cant imagine,they apear in the most strange places. But my ambitions go to biger treasures,lets say ,the Templars treasures or Alexander the Great treasure,spot with big treasure. About your Roman treasures,the market is overload with them,plus a lot of forgeries...

[ivconic]

I understand you very well.Personaly i dont trust Mineoro devices 100%,i told many times in this forum,they are useles to find small gold objects,Mineoro propaganda is not true,it deceive many clients.
About PD,its another story,it works with small and big objects.
I´m not counting with nothing,i´m not afraid of nothing,if for some reason someone decide to come,i´m open to show Pistoldetektor working as LRL,and that all.
If you need some invitation,also is possible. Some friends from Russia already saw PD working,and they are very interested,but they also have LRL who works.

Aside device testing, i would like somewhen to visit Portugal, especially coastline. Maybe somewhen in future..Very nice country!

[J_Player]

Actually it can. It is producing some sort of "hallo" or simillar...right now i can not explain what it is. But...benefits from that "hallo" effect or whatever, are not great..at least not so great to allow you to detect coin at 10 times or more distance than without it.Hi Ivconic,
This "halo" or similar is the same as Esteban calls the "Phenomenon".

You see it as a halo that shows a stronger than normal metal detector signal until you dig the target. But LRL proponents see it as having many more properties than that. In fact there are thousands of scientists that have reported similar findings about long time buried metal objects as what Esteban describes.

What we know from scientists is that long time buried metals corrode under the ground, and this corrosion results in metal ions dissolving in the soil and eventually combining with salts in the soil. This constitutes a weak form of "ground battery" which can be seen as an anomaly in the telluric currents which normally flow in the soil. But scientists have also discovered that these metal ions tavel upwards in a column through the soil above the buried metal, until they reach the last 10-30 cm of the surface, where they combine with other elements and become bound (no longer an ion). This all happens very slowly, and can be accelerated by the rain cycles, and by bacteria that attack metals under the ground by producing corrosive substances like cyanide.

The LRL proponents claim they have LRLs that are able to detect secondary effects of this corroding metal halo area of the ground. Things like anomalies of the earth's atmospheric space charge in the air above the buried metal, anomalies of the earth's magnetic field in the area of the halo, anomalies in the ground conductivity or resistivity in the area of the halo, etc.

We also have an LRL proponent who claims that gold has DNA which produces a substance that coats the surface to protect it from rust and oxidation, etc.

I suppose you are right... Some of these things may be true, and some maybe not.
But until you see an LRL recovering treasure in front of your eyes, you are only hearing stories.

Best wishes,
J_P

[ivconic]

Í have the LRL Pistoldetektor,and realy can make a fortune searching for treasures,but this costs a lot of money in travelings,as you should know,treasures are dificult to find ...actualy i saw them in places that you cant imagine,they apear in the most strange places. But my ambitions go to biger treasures,lets say ,the Templars treasures or Alexander the Great treasure,spot with big treasure. About your Roman treasures,the market is overload with them,plus a lot of forgeries...


"...About your Roman treasures,the market is overload with them,plus a lot of forgeries...."

Huh! Yes...sadly..it is true. Yet..i am hobbist and enthusiast. Prospecting and coinshooting is my middle name. Without that sport i would die!

[Morgan]

Yes - I probably already knew that ... just forgot. ;)

I have been to Portugal many years ago. Very nice country.
So,you can return,i´m in the south .

[Morgan]

I am sure that you made much experiments on this subject. Also i am sure that you made many various devices so far. Most of those devices do react somehow on something, i do beleive that.
What i can not accept is claim that you or anybody else can accuratelly detect one single coin at....1m in soil, BUT; knowing for sure and being 80% sure it is coin, before digging!
What i want to say is:
it is easy to make device which will "squeek", "crack" , "peep" or indicate on some other way, some "detection" of something.
We have here Zahori..among other devices. It is also "squeeking" arround wildly. So...by random and pretty wild coincidency operator can walk arround and dig holes, and certainly he will discover some item in the ground, sooner or later. So..it is good chance, acting like that, to dig many good items. Especially if that location has rich history, so many good items and finds are present there. Than that prospector will be 100% sure his device was accurate and usefull. Even if that device was empty plastic box with ordinary radio telescopic antenna....
I rather beleive that your results were achieved by strange and wild coincidence and possiblly due fact that you live and prospecting in historically rich area.
That's why is neccessary to test such devices in another regions, far away from your place.
Me also...i live in very interesting area where ancient roman roads are crossing. There are numerous locations and sites. There are many sites where i dont need detector at all. Just need to walk and dig randomly. On each 10 holes i will discover at least 5 nice finds. Without any device by me. So..if i took Zahori with me, it would "squeek" randomly arround, i would dig holes, find nice finds...and at the end of a day i would be 100% sure Zahori was accurate and powerfull!!?? Although, actually, it was 100% uselles..
Understand me? That is , what i beleive is, a case here.
The PD not give any randomic beeps,it can detect one target acurate without randomics. Only need to work in the limit of sensitivity to find the smaller objects.Other problem its time to time readjust the gain potentiometer becouse we are working with the Heatkit,but i´m thinking to adapt one automatic MD,maybe its possible,wath about the TGS ?

[Morgan]

Aside device testing, i would like somewhen to visit Portugal, especially coastline. Maybe somewhen in future..Very nice country!

Yes,you can visit again,meet with me,try the PD and report to your friends in the forum your LRL experiences...

[ivconic]

Hi Ivconic,
This "halo" or similar is the same as Esteban calls the :phenomenon".

You see it as a halo that shows a stronger than normal metal detector signal until you dig the target. But LRL proponents see it as having many more properties than that. In fact there are thousands of scientists that have reported similar findings about long time buried metal objects as what Esteban describes.

What we know from scientists is that long time buried metals corrode under the ground, and this corrosion results in metal ions dissolving in the soil and eventually combining with salts in the soil. This constitutes a weak form of "ground battery" which can be seen as an anomaly in the telluric currents which normally flow in the soil. But scientists have also discovered that these metal ions tavel upwards in a column through the soil above the buried metal, until they reach the last 10-30 cm of the surface, where they combine with other elements and become bound (no longer an ion). This all happens very slowly, and can be accelerated by the rain cycles, and by bacteria that attack metals under the ground by producing corrosive substances like cyanide.

The LRL proponents claim they have LRLs that are able to detect secondary effects of this corroding metal halo area of the ground. Things like anomalies of the earth's atmospheric space charge in the air above the buried metal, anomalies of the earth's magnetic field in the area of the halo, anomalies in the ground conductivity or resistivity in the area of the halo, etc.

We also have an LRL proponent who claims that gold has DNA which produces a substance that coats the surface to protect it from rust and oxidation, etc.

I suppose you are right... Some of these things may be true, and some maybe not.
But until you see an LRL recovering treasure in front of your eyes, you are only hearing stories.

Best wishes,
J_P

Yes, very nice said. All the elucidations actually reffers to same occurence. Various people, various experiences...but very same thing we are talking about.
But we do not disagree much about phenomena, we disagree about detection/location techiniques here.
It is impossible to remotelly locate such small metalic item as coin at noted distances/depths. Coin presents very small "mass" to more significantly disturb surrounding soil. No matter how long it will lay in it.
Surrounding soil will "suck" all the "radiations" from coin and dilute it easilly.
Other hand, even if soil not affecting coin "radiations" , there is no such method to locate same coin or his "radiation" accuratelly on long distance.
No method and no way. There are to many other surrounding factors in air and in soil which will "cover" and annihilate anything "came" from coin.
Ok..i dont want to act as hardass here. Simply i am not able to imagine and understand such approach.
But i would like (oh heck YES!) to have simillar device, cose than i would get very rich in no time! :razz::D

[Morgan]

Yes, very nice said. All the elucidations actually reffers to same occurence. Various people, various experiences...but very same thing we are talking about.
But we do not disagree much about phenomena, we disagree about detection/location techiniques here.
It is impossible to remotelly locate such small metalic item as coin at noted distances/depths. Coin presents very small "mass" to more significantly disturb surrounding soil. No matter how long it will lay in it.
Surrounding soil will "suck" all the "radiations" from coin and dilute it easilly.
Other hand, even if soil not affecting coin "radiations" , there is no such method to locate same coin or his "radiation" accuratelly on long distance.
No method and no way. There are to many other surrounding factors in air and in soil which will "cover" and annihilate anything "came" from coin.
Ok..i dont want to act as hardass here. Simply i am not able to imagine and understand such approach.
But i would like (oh heck YES!) to have simillar device, cose than i would get very rich in no time! :razz::D


First PD i clone was even better than the original,then i try to replicate more and simply cant get the performance i get with the first one...
I´m not admired that many people here fail cloning the Pistoldetektor. In reality its not easy to balance correctly the ferrites and coils...

[Fred]

Ivconic,
They say the signal from a regular detector destroys the halo.So maybe the halo is much bigger than it looks and can be detected with a non-intrusive and more sensistive device.
You admit the existence of a halo but, still need to know the size.It could be strong in a localized point but extending weakly all around ...or in some direction ;)

[ivconic]

"...First PD i clone was even better than the original,then i try to replicate more and simply cant get the performance i get with the first one...
I´m not admired that many people here fail cloning the Pistoldetektor. In reality its not easy to balance correctly the ferrites and coils... "



I must admit; i missed to read huge part of Remote Sensing threads. Simply i was occupied with other projects. Time is runing...if i had more energy not to sleep!! Eh!
But..now when you are so sure in that thing, i feel "itched" to experiment a bit on that subject.
Can you suggest me how to make clone? Any schematics...details? I am very sorry if asking something already posted here on this forum in the past and i missed it. You will save me a lot of time from searching.
I would try to make it and if any results; be sure i will confirm those. I will easilly admit my ignorance here in public.

[ivconic]

Ivconic,
They say the signal from a regular detector destroys the halo.So maybe the halo is much bigger than it looks and can be detected with a non-intrusive and more sensistive device.
You admit the existence of a halo but, still need to know the size.It could be strong in a localized point but extending weakly all around ...or in some direction ;)

First we must know exact "hallo" features. All the details. Than it will be easy to project device for locating it.

[Fred]

First we must know exact "hallo" features. All the details. Than it will be easy to project device for locating it.

Exactly.This is the way i would do it.Unfortunately this is not easy and there is (probably) no treasure here...We also should be sure the halo is really the same as "phenomenon", wich makes a lot of sense but is not proven.
teh information about the PD is spread all along the remote sensing thread, when Morgan began to show it.
The best and faster way would be you take some holidays in Portugal :)

[Morgan]

"...First PD i clone was even better than the original,then i try to replicate more and simply cant get the performance i get with the first one...
I´m not admired that many people here fail cloning the Pistoldetektor. In reality its not easy to balance correctly the ferrites and coils... "



I must admit; i missed to read huge part of Remote Sensing threads. Simply i was occupied with other projects. Time is runing...if i had more energy not to sleep!! Eh!
But..now when you are so sure in that thing, i feel "itched" to experiment a bit on that subject.
Can you suggest me how to make clone? Any schematics...details? I am very sorry if asking something already posted here on this forum in the past and i missed it. You will save me a lot of time from searching.
I would try to make it and if any results; be sure i will confirm those. I will easilly admit my ignorance here in public.
This way maybe you cant find wath you search,the Phenomenon.
I admit,its very dificult to make a perfect clone of the original,even with osciloscopes and other stuf,you will have 10% of chance to be sucessful.
Max,Fred,Andreas and a few others was not able to make a working LRL PD clone...

[Morgan]

Exactly.This is the way i would do it.Unfortunately this is not easy and there is (probably) no treasure here...We also should be sure the halo is really the same as "phenomenon", wich makes a lot of sense but is not proven.
teh information about the PD is spread all along the remote sensing thread, when Morgan began to show it.
The best and faster way would be you take some holidays in Portugal :)
Thats true.
Here i have gold medal buried many years ago,and more objects;)
PD detect this medal 2m distance,and medal was buried 20 cm.

[ivconic]

Another approach would be examining same phenomena in vacuum. Where no soil/air influence is present. Than to establish all the "hallo" features in such neutral environment. Next step would be to compare gained results with behavior in soil/air. Differences will indicate influences and lead to proper approach and locating technique. Come to think..; conventional "magnetic" approach would also be interesting to examine in neutral environment, such as vacuum!!!Hah!

[J_Player]

Coin presents very small "mass" to more significantly disturb surrounding soil. No matter how long it will lay in it.
Surrounding soil will "suck" all the "radiations" from coin and dilute it easilly.
Hi Ivconic,
You are right about small mass of the coin. But what has been discovered is there are metal ions that move away from the coin in all directions and become disolved in the soil. There is no defined diameter because the concentration diminishes logarithmically. (We can say that there is a good halo at a 10 cm radius, even though it extends farther in weaker amounts). This raduis sphere is tranformed into a vertical column that moves slowly upward due to the capillary actions of the rain cycles. The ions continue to populate this column until the final 10-30 cm of the surface.

Thus, the halo area is many hundreds of times larger than the coin when measured by volume. Suppose a coin was buried 40 cm deep, and had a cylindrical column of ions dissolved in soil that approximated 10 cm radius with 25 cm height. --- The volume of this ion column is nearly 8 liters. How many coins would fit in 8 liters?

To be fair, the halo area of ionized soil may not be as strong as the coin for showing eddy currents in a metal detector, but it contributes sometimes to show a signal nearly twice as strong. What is more important is the electric field effects. The atmospheric current leaking between the earth and atmosphere will tend to favor areas of the ground that are more conductive, and transfer charges more easily. This anomaly made of ions, while having lesser mass than the coin, can have a large influence on the voltage gradient above the halo ground. Maybe large enough to measure. But as you say, there are many other interfering noises that make this hard to find. Some of the best conditions are:

1. Away from civilization - power lines, radio broadcasts, etc.
2. Between the hours of 10:00am and 2:00pm (may vary ins different countries)
3. Low relative humidity
4. The soil must contain chemicals that dissolve the metal. Otherwise there will be no ions or halo. For gold, this means there must be some gold-digesting bacteria that can corrode the metal by secreting cyanide and sulfur complexes. These bacteria have been found up to 5000 feet deep in gold mines, as well as near the surface.
5. Damp soil - preferably drying after a wet spell.
6. Long time buried metal. it takes some time depending on the metal.
7. Copper, lead, iron and zinc are known to dissolve a high concentration of ions in some soils. Most common metals are good for creating a halo. Poor metals that take longer are gold, stainless steel, platinum, palladium, etc.

Best wishes,
J_P

[Morgan]

Exactly.This is the way i would do it.Unfortunately this is not easy and there is (probably) no treasure here...We also should be sure the halo is really the same as "phenomenon", wich makes a lot of sense but is not proven.
teh information about the PD is spread all along the remote sensing thread, when Morgan began to show it.
The best and faster way would be you take some holidays in Portugal :)
Sim Fred,podes vir sozinho ou em grupo.
Traz tambem o teu PD.
Eu acho que é altura de pôr no forum toda a verdade sobre o PD,e pensar na produçâo do aparelho em larga escala com autorização do Alonso,e o melhoramento dos circuitos para automatico e se possivel tambem mais distancia.

Até breve

[ivconic]

This way maybe you cant find wath you search,the Phenomenon.
I admit,its very dificult to make a perfect clone of the original,even with osciloscopes and other stuf,you will have 10% of chance to be sucessful.
Max,Fred,Andreas and a few others was not able to make a working LRL PD clone...

I see.
Is it posted on this forum, at one place? Complete project?

[ivconic]

Sim Fred,podes vir sozinho ou em grupo.
Traz tambem o teu PD.
Eu acho que é altura de pôr no forum toda a verdade sobre o PD,e pensar na produçâo do aparelho em larga escala com autorização do Alonso,e o melhoramento dos circuitos para automatico e se possivel tambem mais distancia.

Até breve

But you already said you had difficulties producing second clone?? How can you be sure you'll maintain same performances in whole serie of products?

[ivconic]

Hi Ivconic,
You are right about small mass of the coin. But what has been discovered is there are metal ions that move away from the coin in all directions and become disolved in the soil. There is no defined diameter because the concentration diminishes logarithmically. (We can say that there is a good halo at a 10 cm radius, even though it extends farther in weaker amounts). This raduis sphere is tranformed into a vertical column that moves slowly upward due to the capillary actions of the rain cycles. The ions continue to populate this column until the final 10-30 cm of the surface.

Thus, the halo area is many hundreds of times larger than the coin when measured by volume. Suppose a coin was buried 40 cm deep, and had a cylindrical column of ions dissolved in soil that approximated 10 cm radius with 25 cm height. --- The volume of this ion column is nearly 8 liters. How many coins would fit in 8 liters?

To be fair, the halo area of ionized soil may not be as strong as the coin for showing eddy currents in a metal detector, but it contributes sometimes to show a signal nearly twice as strong. What is more important is the electric field effects. The atmospheric current leaking between the earth and atmosphere will tend to favor areas of the ground that are more conductive, and transfer charges more easily. This anomaly made of ions, while having lesser mass than the coin, can have a large influence on the voltage gradient above the halo ground. Maybe large enough to measure. But as you say, there are many other interfering noises that make this hard to find. Some of the best conditions are:

1. Away from civilization - power lines, radio broadcasts, etc.
2. Between the hours of 10:00am and 2:00pm (may vary ins different countries)
3. Low relative humidity
4. The soil must contain chemicals that dissolve the metal. Otherwise there will be no ions or halo. For gold, this means there must be some gold-digesting bacteria that can corrode the metal by secreting cyanide and sulfur complexes. These bacteria have been found up to 5000 feet deep in gold mines, as well as near the surface.
5. Damp soil - preferably drying after a wet spell.
6. Long time buried metal. it takes some time depending on the metal.
7. Copper, lead, iron and zinc are known to dissolve a high concentration of ions in some soils. Most common metals are good for creating a halo. Poor metals that take longer are gold, stainless steel, platinum, palladium, etc.

Best wishes,
J_P

That is very acceptable theory, but only if there is method to mark out ions origin by some specific feature. So to know which ion came from which origin. I am not some expert in ions, but i do know ions are ions...no matter the origin. So.. that would be acceptable approach (ionic detection) only in primitive environments....like sandy deserts, where are far less chances to meet ions from various origins. So...walking through the desert and sudden detection of ion clouds would mean only one thing - something must be in soil (sand) as ions origin. So few chances to miss.
But...than this would mean lrl's with this detection technique are suitable and effective only in simillar environments. If those are effective at all.
But in more complicated environments there are so many ions and ion clouds, floating arround, with various origins..so that kind of locating technique would turn to be totally uselless. Cose you simply can not distinguish between ions and further to recognize their origin.
So... ionic detection technique will always indicate presence of various ions. Everywhere. How to know which one is coming from hoard?

[J_Player]

that would be acceptable approach (ionic detection) only in primitive environments....like sandy deserts, where are far less chances to meet ions from various origins. So...walking through the desert and sudden detection of ion clouds would mean only one thing - something must be in soil (sand) as ions origin. So few chances to miss.Hi Ivconic,
I believe there are no ion clouds to be detected that will indicate the location of buried metal. I believe in what scientists have measured, not what pseudo-scientists claim without proof. I believe you have correctly concluded that something must be in the soil.

Scientists have measured the ion anomalies in the soil that rise in a column above buried metals. In fact, there is a multimillion dollar industry that surveys the soil at gold mines and copper mines to see where the strong concentrations of metal ions are. They can then pinpoint the ore deposits that lead to the recovery of tons of gold and copper as well as other metals.

This same column of ions ceases to exist when it migrates to within 10-30 cm of the surface. At this point the ions become bound with other salts near the surface of the soil and cease to be ions. In the case of gold, it usually becomes a minute fragment of metallic gold, or possibly a telluride, or other ore compound. But never a free gold ion that becomes airborne. This is the reason it is not possible to detect gold ions in the air. Also, if gold ions did somehow get into the air, the wind would quickly blow them away from the location of the treasure.

The anomaly that can be measured is the ion column, sometimes called halo. What changes in this column of soil is it has higher conductivity than the surrounding soil. It also is a volume of soil that is acting like a battery. The gold ions are mingling with other ions derived from chemical salts in the soil and sulfur complexes, etc. It is literally a ground battery operating in the midst of some varying telluric currents.

In addition, any chemical and electrical activities caused by this halo will influence the earth's magnetic field to a lesser extent. But the most important effect used by most LRL experimenters is the voltage gradient in the air above the halo. This voltage gradient is about 300v/meter of altitude at the surface of the earth. It is driven by the slow leakage of current between the earth and the ionosphere, much like a capacitor has a slow leakage across the dielectric. In this case, the earth is the negative plate, the atmosphere is the dielectric, and the upper ionosphere is the positive plate that collects positive charge from the sun in the form of x-rays mostly. The ionosphere collects enough charge to cause an average total leakage current of 2000 amps across the atmosphere from the earth.

If the earth were a uniform sphere, with all soil having the same conductivity, then we would have a very uniform flow of current on every square centimeter of the earth. But the soil is not uniform. Some soils are more conductive than others, and the current favours the conductive soils. You can expect to find a higher leakage of current from the surface in places where the ground is more conductive, and at the same time you will find the voltage gradient in the air above is much less at this location.

The prominent theory is that the halo area is highly conductive compared to the neighboring soil. Therefore it focuses a lot of atmospheric current leaking directly into the halo cylinder, where it is distributed out the sides of this cylinder into the non-halo soil and mingles with the telluric currents.

Think about the implications: If the soil in the halo anomaly is 10 times more conductive than the surrounding soil, it should have a good amount of current flowing into it from the sky compared to neighboring soil. This is what stimulates magnetic field anomalies... the concentrated atmospheric current flow is inducing a field.
Also, think of the voltage gradient... it is as if someone planted a lightning rod above the buried metal, You will see constant voltage gradients all around until you look the direction of the treasure --- then it drops severely.

This is the basis for long range locating. According to Esteban and others, the signal that can be detected is very small, requiring very sensitive instruments to find it. This anomaly is further complicated by all manner of noise from power lines and radio broadcasts, as well as natural noise from the atmosphere and earth. The only question is what kind of circuit to build to detect these anomalies. According to Esteban, it is not easy, but after a lot of experimenting, he says he found success.

Best wishes,
J_P

[ivconic]

The way you described it here it makes a lot of sense.

[Max]

"Hallo" effect or whatever we called it, exist. No doubts.
But main question here is ; can we detect/locate it at long distances? I never succed that, neither anybody else i know. That is the problem.


Hi,
sure, it exist... it's not a trick of the mind in this case... the fact is known to many hobbists around the world.

Indeed, the problem is that just few , very sensitive MDs (expecially VLF as I know) can detect consistently halo formations around very old buried something... and that's appears as the target is bigger than it is really.

Also, once dug the soil was disturbed and the regular detection depth for target become apparent... and less than before , when item is buried.

As you stated in an old post the effect can be seen due to the fact some targets cannot be detected at a distance as just "targets" and the fact they are detected farther when buried is not only suspect (actually on fresh buried targets the soil mask the target presence, as we all know from air-tests and in-soil test depth comparisions) but I think a proof the effect exist and is real.

I say that both for ferromagnetic and non-ferromagnetic materials it exist... (but never seen on e.g. gold stuff) it happens easy on old iron (but still compact at core) , old bronze, old copper , old silver...

PS: of coruse, about LRL I cannot say if exists something that detects halo or whatever at far distances (several meters away)... so the fact (someone wouldn't agree it's a fact ...but anyway) Halo exist doesn't mean someone made really an LRL device capable of detecting it at far ranges... I dubt that's possible.

Kind regards,
Max

[Max]

Yes,sure PD detects at long distance the anomaly caused by conductive metals.This distances are impossible for normal metal detector.
My experiences with PD everybody from this forum know very well. I realy dont know very well if PD can detect 1k gold 200m,but i´m sure 15m is possible. Also small gold or silver objects can be detected at distances like 1m to 5m or more. Depth can be near the surface or more deep.but i never found one single coin buried more than 50cm,and the hoard of silver coins was 80cm underground...

You posted just BS... your data about PD were fake... your description of its behaviour is just a copy and paste of other "gurus" here... :lol:

I think your PD can just find noise.

Kind regards,
Max

[Max]

It is not a problem to pay for such revolutionary device. It would not be a problem at all. If i am sure i can find hoards of roman coins and jewelry with such device...heck..it will repay all the costs with one single find.
I am sure there are people on this forum with fat bank accounts. No problem to collect money for something payable. But first we must see and experience such device..right?

Personally... I will not pay even a dollar for that c.r.a.p. he posted... not that I have such , big , fat... bank account... :D

But, even if I have money to waste...I will not waste my money with his stupid claims anyway! :cool:

I'd like too see something working about LRLs... but till now just big, fat claims and no facts. :rolleyes:

Kind regards,
Max

[Max]

This way maybe you cant find wath you search,the Phenomenon.
I admit,its very dificult to make a perfect clone of the original,even with osciloscopes and other stuf,you will have 10% of chance to be sucessful.
Max,Fred,Andreas and a few others was not able to make a working LRL PD clone...

You forgot to mention you hide big part of informations about PD... and provided misleading ones... to trick people.

The fact "Max,Fred,Andreas and a few others was not able to make a working LRL PD clone" is due also to your policy of keeping advices and help from people and returning fake informations ...like the 7th missing board ! :lol:

Do you remember what you posted about ? :razz:

Some of us discovered much on PD stuff.. e.g. what was original design of the MD inside it... and way to tune it properly...

But "Max,Fred,Andreas and a few others was not able to make a working LRL PD clone" cause, probably, the whole PD stuff is just a randomic beeper at LRL distances... :rolleyes:

Kind regards,
Max

[Max]

I see.
Is it posted on this forum, at one place? Complete project?


:lol:... better if you ask Esteban about...

Kind regards,
Max

[Qiaozhi]

Hi,
sure, it exist... it's not a trick of the mind in this case... the fact is known to many hobbists around the world.

Indeed, the problem is that just few , very sensitive MDs (expecially VLF as I know) can detect consistently halo formations around very old buried something... and that's appears as the target is bigger than it is really.

Also, once dug the soil was disturbed and the regular detection depth for target become apparent... and less than before , when item is buried.

As you stated in an old post the effect can be seen due to the fact some targets cannot be detected at a distance as just "targets" and the fact they are detected farther when buried is not only suspect (actually on fresh buried targets the soil mask the target presence, as we all know from air-tests and in-soil test depth comparisions) but I think a proof the effect exist and is real.

I say that both for ferromagnetic and non-ferromagnetic materials it exist... (but never seen on e.g. gold stuff) it happens easy on old iron (but still compact at core) , old bronze, old copper , old silver...
I think that all metal detectorists have experienced this "halo" at some time. For iron, copper, etc., it is easy to explain, but there is no reason why the "halo" should exist for a gold coin, or similar object. Of course, in some cases the object was not actually at the claimed depth at all, but was lodged in the side wall. Then the detectorist does not notice when it falls into the bottom of the hole. This can easily explain what's happening in some cases, especially if you use DD coils, which can often prove troublesome when poinpointing. In one particular case I know that this did not happen to me, because I was on my knees scratching out the soil from a deep hole with my hand, and I uncovered the coin at the bottom. It was a 1797 George III copper coin. This was one of the first early coins to be minted in the new-fangled steam presses of the time.
Without the soil in place, it was not possible to detect this coin at the bottom of the hole.
I have never experienced this "halo" for either silver or gold.

[Max]

I think that all metal detectorists have experienced this "halo" at some time. For iron, copper, etc., it is easy to explain, but there is no reason why the "halo" should exist for a gold coin, or similar object. Of course, in some cases the object was not actually at the claimed depth at all, but was lodged in the side wall. Then the detectorist does not notice when it falls into the bottom of the hole. This can easily explain what's happening in some cases, especially if you use DD coils, which can often prove troublesome when poinpointing. In one particular case I know that this did not happen to me, because I was on my knees scracthing out the soil from a deep hole with my hand, and I uncovered the coin at the bottom. It was a 1797 George III coper coin. This was one of the first early coins to be minted in the new-fangled steam presses of the time.
Without the soil in place, it was not possible to detect this coin at the bottom of the hole.
I have never experienced this "halo" for either silver or gold.

Hi,
sure, gold I never see too. But on silver I can say I saw similar stuff... silver coins that I found that way, over the detection range in-air, were BLACK... cause they corroded in soil.

Now, I'm not totally sure that wasn't with targets on walls of the hole as you described (was many years ago... I simply don't remember now) but the simple fact I detected the small coins over the in-air detection range has a meaning I think.;)

Kind regards,
Max

[Geo]

I believe that we only speak "in order to we speak". Morgan made us a proposal to go to Portugal, so that we see the PD working. Only that it remains, is we gather itself 3… 4 men and we go to meet Morgan. I am allocated to go. Some other??

Regards:):)

[Fred]

Man, this is a fast moving thread :D
Sim Fred,podes vir sozinho ou em grupo.
Traz tambem o teu PD...
Obrigado Morgan,
I wish i could go there, but the problerm is the couple of thousand kilometers that separes us...:rolleyes:
So...walking through the desert and sudden detection of ion clouds would mean only one thing - something must be in soil (sand) as ions origin. So few chances to miss.But...than this would mean lrl's with this detection technique are suitable and effective only in simillar environments. If those are effective at all.
But in more complicated environments there are so many ions and ion clouds, floating arround, with various origins..so that kind of locating technique would turn to be totally uselless. Cose you simply can not distinguish between ions and further to recognize their origin.
Yes!
And i think some places in South America, if not deserts, are flat and homogenous enought to help this detection to occur at greater distances, but even if it "only" works a reduced distance in more populated areas, it still could be interesting.


But "Max,Fred,Andreas and a few others was not able to make a working LRL PD clone" cause, probably, the whole PD stuff is just a randomic beeper at LRL distances... :rolleyes:Kind regards,Max
Max , let´s keep positive, an to be honest i think there is more to try with it, in my case the conditions in wich experiments were conducted were not the best. What i have found is that it randomly beeps and is sensitive to some effect we couldn´t explain.

Regards,
Fred.

[J_Player]

Morgan made us a proposal to go to Portugal, so that we see the PD working. Only that it remains, is we gather itself 3… 4 men and we go to meet Morgan. I am allocated to go. Some other??Hi Geo,

This is an excellent idea. There is no need to make arguments and try to guess, when you can see with your own eyes. If I lived in Europe, I would definitely go to see. Portugal is a very nice place, and Morgan can show you the best places to visit after you see his pistol detector and other LRLs finding treasure.

Best wishes,
J_P

[Esteban]

Hi Ivconic,
You are right about small mass of the coin. But what has been discovered is there are metal ions that move away from the coin in all directions and become disolved in the soil. There is no defined diameter because the concentration diminishes logarithmically. (We can say that there is a good halo at a 10 cm radius, even though it extends farther in weaker amounts). This raduis sphere is tranformed into a vertical column that moves slowly upward due to the capillary actions of the rain cycles. The ions continue to populate this column until the final 10-30 cm of the surface.

Thus, the halo area is many hundreds of times larger than the coin when measured by volume. Suppose a coin was buried 40 cm deep, and had a cylindrical column of ions dissolved in soil that approximated 10 cm radius with 25 cm height. --- The volume of this ion column is nearly 8 liters. How many coins would fit in 8 liters?

To be fair, the halo area of ionized soil may not be as strong as the coin for showing eddy currents in a metal detector, but it contributes sometimes to show a signal nearly twice as strong. What is more important is the electric field effects. The atmospheric current leaking between the earth and atmosphere will tend to favor areas of the ground that are more conductive, and transfer charges more easily. This anomaly made of ions, while having lesser mass than the coin, can have a large influence on the voltage gradient above the halo ground. Maybe large enough to measure. But as you say, there are many other interfering noises that make this hard to find. Some of the best conditions are:

1. Away from civilization - power lines, radio broadcasts, etc.
2. Between the hours of 10:00am and 2:00pm (may vary ins different countries)
3. Low relative humidity
4. The soil must contain chemicals that dissolve the metal. Otherwise there will be no ions or halo. For gold, this means there must be some gold-digesting bacteria that can corrode the metal by secreting cyanide and sulfur complexes. These bacteria have been found up to 5000 feet deep in gold mines, as well as near the surface.
5. Damp soil - preferably drying after a wet spell.
6. Long time buried metal. it takes some time depending on the metal.
7. Copper, lead, iron and zinc are known to dissolve a high concentration of ions in some soils. Most common metals are good for creating a halo. Poor metals that take longer are gold, stainless steel, platinum, palladium, etc.

Best wishes,
J_P

Here we found better hours are 8.00 to 17.00 PM, and maybe the best is 16.00 PM.

Lead is "cold" metal, but the most wich creates halo (or field) rapidly is bronze and copper.

[Esteban]

That is very acceptable theory, but only if there is method to mark out ions origin by some specific feature. So to know which ion came from which origin. I am not some expert in ions, but i do know ions are ions...no matter the origin. So.. that would be acceptable approach (ionic detection) only in primitive environments....like sandy deserts, where are far less chances to meet ions from various origins. So...walking through the desert and sudden detection of ion clouds would mean only one thing - something must be in soil (sand) as ions origin. So few chances to miss.
But...than this would mean lrl's with this detection technique are suitable and effective only in simillar environments. If those are effective at all.
But in more complicated environments there are so many ions and ion clouds, floating arround, with various origins..so that kind of locating technique would turn to be totally uselless. Cose you simply can not distinguish between ions and further to recognize their origin.
So... ionic detection technique will always indicate presence of various ions. Everywhere. How to know which one is coming from hoard?



For example, iron you can reject easyli because degradate rapidly, so bronze, for me, is the most "sweet"... The only time I detect an iron object was a stove buried at 1 m or more, but beeps was interminent, very intermitent, but from 40 m. But also this stove has copper pipes, but I'm sure detection was by the iron, because, at the end, the iron mask here the "signal" of good conductive metals as copper, silver, gold...

Here occurs exactly as normal MD: in terrain with high concentration of iron, in my country a type of red soil, detection can be mask in gran manner. In salty terrain detection is long, but no precisse, due a kind of "disperssion" occurs.

[Esteban]

I am sure that you made much experiments on this subject. Also i am sure that you made many various devices so far. Most of those devices do react somehow on something, i do beleive that.
What i can not accept is claim that you or anybody else can accuratelly detect one single coin at....1m in soil, BUT; knowing for sure and being 80% sure it is coin, before digging!
What i want to say is:
it is easy to make device which will "squeek", "crack" , "peep" or indicate on some other way, some "detection" of something.
We have here Zahori..among other devices. It is also "squeeking" arround wildly. So...by random and pretty wild coincidency operator can walk arround and dig holes, and certainly he will discover some item in the ground, sooner or later. So..it is good chance, acting like that, to dig many good items. Especially if that location has rich history, so many good items and finds are present there. Than that prospector will be 100% sure his device was accurate and usefull. Even if that device was empty plastic box with ordinary radio telescopic antenna....
I rather beleive that your results were achieved by strange and wild coincidence and possiblly due fact that you live and prospecting in historically rich area.
That's why is neccessary to test such devices in another regions, far away from your place.
Me also...i live in very interesting area where ancient roman roads are crossing. There are numerous locations and sites. There are many sites where i dont need detector at all. Just need to walk and dig randomly. On each 10 holes i will discover at least 5 nice finds. Without any device by me. So..if i took Zahori with me, it would "squeek" randomly arround, i would dig holes, find nice finds...and at the end of a day i would be 100% sure Zahori was accurate and powerfull!!?? Although, actually, it was 100% uselles..
Understand me? That is , what i beleive is, a case here.

Yes, you're right, but here with a poor history, few objects in soil in comparisson Europe, etc., is more, but more difficult, to be a coincidence...

[Esteban]

Hi Ivconic,
This "halo" or similar is the same as Esteban calls the "Phenomenon".

You see it as a halo that shows a stronger than normal metal detector signal until you dig the target. But LRL proponents see it as having many more properties than that. In fact there are thousands of scientists that have reported similar findings about long time buried metal objects as what Esteban describes.

What we know from scientists is that long time buried metals corrode under the ground, and this corrosion results in metal ions dissolving in the soil and eventually combining with salts in the soil. This constitutes a weak form of "ground battery" which can be seen as an anomaly in the telluric currents which normally flow in the soil. But scientists have also discovered that these metal ions tavel upwards in a column through the soil above the buried metal, until they reach the last 10-30 cm of the surface, where they combine with other elements and become bound (no longer an ion). This all happens very slowly, and can be accelerated by the rain cycles, and by bacteria that attack metals under the ground by producing corrosive substances like cyanide.

The LRL proponents claim they have LRLs that are able to detect secondary effects of this corroding metal halo area of the ground. Things like anomalies of the earth's atmospheric space charge in the air above the buried metal, anomalies of the earth's magnetic field in the area of the halo, anomalies in the ground conductivity or resistivity in the area of the halo, etc.

We also have an LRL proponent who claims that gold has DNA which produces a substance that coats the surface to protect it from rust and oxidation, etc.

I suppose you are right... Some of these things may be true, and some maybe not.
But until you see an LRL recovering treasure in front of your eyes, you are only hearing stories.

Best wishes,
J_P

No scientis told us. We, many years ago, with our empiric methods and meditions conclude that the phenomenon is complex: electricity, magnetism, chemical combinations, ions, and maybe associated with RF.

Regards

[Fred]

HLead is "cold" metal, but the most wich creates halo (or field) rapidly is bronze and copper.
Esteban,what about aluminium? it is a metal wich oxydes rapidly and is reactive.

[Esteban]

Esteban,what about aluminium? it is a metal wich oxydes rapidly and is reactive.

For the absorptive pistol, no. Maybe for very sensitive electrometer yes.

[Fred]

For the absorptive pistol, no. Maybe for very sensitive electrometer yes.
Interesting : Bronze yes, aluminium no,iron not much, this is a clue!

[Esteban]

Interesting : Bronze yes, aluminium no,iron not much, this is a clue!

If the bronze is round as coin or buttons, round form, or circular as buckle, better.

[Fred]

If the bronze is round as coin or buttons, round form, or circular as buckle, better.
Ok Esteban,
So i suppose a sphere would be even better.
and if a sphere is better, to experiment a sphere with a spike in it.
Problem is if we need to wait a few years between each experiment.

[J_Player]

No scientis told us. We, many years ago, with our empiric methods and meditions conclude that the phenomenon is complex: electricity, magnetism, chemical combinations, ions, and maybe associated with RF.

RegardsHi Esteban,

Yes, scientists told us. There are more than 1 million online pages showing what scientists told us about this. We also have books written since the turn of the century showing the association between underground metal or other geological anomalies and variations in magnetic fields, electric fields, RF and other measurable effects. In the late 1920s through the 1950s many researchers published their findings showing how radio broadcast waves were influenced by anomalies of metal and other geological formations below the ground as well as above the ground.

I don't know who you are referring to when you say "we". But if you are referring to the early researchers from late 1800s through 1950, then I suppose you are correct. After many years of taking field measurements, they did empirically conclude that the phenmomenon is complex, judging from their publications and the diagrams they drew to chart the resulting anomalies in the RF fields.

Best wishes,
J_P

[Esteban]

Ok Esteban,
So i suppose a sphere would be even better.
and if a sphere is better, to experiment a sphere with a spike in it.
Problem is if we need to wait a few years between each experiment.

Spherical objects as old rings also are better detectable. Don't understand why you need wait between each experiment.

[Esteban]

Hi Esteban,

Yes, scientists told us. There are more than 1 million online pages showing what scientists told us about this. We also have books written since the turn of the century showing the association between underground metal or other geological anomalies and variations in magnetic fields, electric fields, RF and other measurable effects. In the late 1920s through the 1950s many researchers published their findings showing how radio broadcast waves were influenced by anomalies below the ground as well as above the ground.

I don't know who you are referring to when you say "we". But if you are referring to the early researchers from late 1800s through 1950, then I suppose you are correct. Aftere many years of taking field measurements, they did empirically conclude that the phenmomenon is complex, based on the diagrams they drew to chart the resulting anomalies in the RF fields.

Best wishes,
J_P

I say "we" because no learning in "very" scientific materials. The most are pressumptions... of course based on characteristics of metals as conductivity...

[Qiaozhi]

Esteban,what about aluminium? it is a metal wich oxydes rapidly and is reactive.

Interesting : Bronze yes, aluminium no,iron not much, this is a clue!

If the bronze is round as coin or buttons, round form, or circular as buckle, better.
This dependence on physical shape would imply that eddy currents are an important aspect in detection ... but, at the distances you are discussing, any eddy currents would be miniscule and undetectable.

[Esteban]

This dependence on physical shape would imply that eddy currents are an important aspect in detection ... but, at the distances you are discussing, any eddy currents would be miniscule and undetectable.

Don't know if eddy currents are useful factor in electronic LRL...

[J_Player]

I say "we" because no learning in "very" scientific materials. The most are pressumptions... of course based on characteristics of metals as conductivity... The scientists made no presumptions when they took soil samples and used chemicals titrations and very precise calibrated electronic instruments to detect the presence of metal ions. These were observed results, not presmptions. They made no presumptions when they observed these metal ions are no longer ions at the surface. They measured the weight of metal compounds that they found, and the absence of metal ions at the surface or above, unlike the presence of metal ions they measured and observed taking column shapes below the surface.

Are you sure they presumed these ions are located in the columns where they claim they measured them? Are you sure they were presuming there is not a metal ion anomaly at or above the surface when their tests failed to find any metal ions above the surface?

Best wishes,
J_P

[Fred]

Spherical objects as old rings also are better detectable. Don't understand why you need wait between each experiment.
Because if you want to try a new shape you have to dig and replace the object, but by doing so you destroy the phenomenon, right?

This dependence on physical shape would imply that eddy currents are an important aspect in detection ... but, at the distances you are discussing, any eddy currents would be miniscule and undetectable.
Yes, and material would not be so important i think:aluminium is a good conductor too.But irregular shapes helps to leak HV.

[Esteban]

The scientists made no presumptions when they took soil samples and used chemicals titrations and very precise calibrated electronic instruments to detect the presence of metal ions. These were observed results, not presmptions. They made no presumptions when they observed these metal ions are no longer ions at the surface. They measured the weight of metal compounds that they found, and the absence of metal ions at the surface or above, unlike the presence of metal ions they measured and observed taking column shapes below the surface.

Are you sure they presumed these ions are located in the columns where they claim they measured them? Are you sure they were presuming when their tests failed to find any metal ions above the surface?

Best wishes,
J_P

No, I made sometimes presumptions. No the scientifics, even if sometimes they suspect about some phenomenons based on previous knowledges...

[Esteban]

Because if you want to try a new shape you have to dig and replace the object, but by doing so you destroy the phenomenon, right?




No, you can test it finding objects "natural" buried. You go on locations and try the detectors.

[Max]

Interesting : Bronze yes, aluminium no,iron not much, this is a clue!

A clue ? :lol:

I think explaination is about easy... and empiric...

Iron rust and dissolves over the years if not thick or compact enough. So not big issue...

Aluminium production was just by after 1825 (though the electricity required to product it made its diffusion before 1900 very rare in the world... if not impossible to find in many places , including Paraguay).

So, always assuming the LRLs work as he said, the OLD buried aluminium is max 100 years old there... but probably much is just from less than 60years... foil... pull-tabs etc
Sure not few time... but enough to develop a strong halo or "phenomenon" ?

He wrote of 30years old cans if I remember well... in that case seems the cans developed strong halo stuff...

I, indeed think that aluminium is really easy detectable if bronze or copper are, don't forget that gold have similar magnetic behaviour as aluminium... that's why using too much disc in an VLF to avoid pull-tabs (aluminium) it's really likly kill your gold ring founds too! :D

Kind regards,
Max

[Esteban]

Here is not rare the aluminium... beer cans exist since decades and other 1,000 kinds of kitchen recipients made from him, but not all the pistols detects it. The absorptive pistol can detect items buried 5-10 years. I remember I detect with it very easy a Nintendo token with a new coin, the both in the same place, one very near the other, "in touch", but seems also here exist a kind of bimetalic effect, because this detection was very very clear. But a "cemetery" of beer cans don't be detected, I surrounded it, and zero detection.

[Morgan]

You posted just BS... your data about PD were fake... your description of its behaviour is just a copy and paste of other "gurus" here... :lol:

I think your PD can just find noise.

Kind regards,
Max
Hi Captain p00p

I think the other skeptics are learning something about LRL,but you become each time more and more BURRO ...

[Morgan]

I think that all metal detectorists have experienced this "halo" at some time. For iron, copper, etc., it is easy to explain, but there is no reason why the "halo" should exist for a gold coin, or similar object. Of course, in some cases the object was not actually at the claimed depth at all, but was lodged in the side wall. Then the detectorist does not notice when it falls into the bottom of the hole. This can easily explain what's happening in some cases, especially if you use DD coils, which can often prove troublesome when poinpointing. In one particular case I know that this did not happen to me, because I was on my knees scratching out the soil from a deep hole with my hand, and I uncovered the coin at the bottom. It was a 1797 George III copper coin. This was one of the first early coins to be minted in the new-fangled steam presses of the time.
Without the soil in place, it was not possible to detect this coin at the bottom of the hole.
I have never experienced this "halo" for either silver or gold.
Is any way to put MAX out of the RS project ?
He already said PD is a CRAP,so he is only disturbing people here.
I vote against Max in RS project

[Geo]

Hi Geo,

This is an excellent idea. There is no need to make arguments and try to guess, when you can see with your own eyes. If I lived in Europe, I would definitely go to see. Portugal is a very nice place, and Morgan can show you the best places to visit after you see his pistol detector and other LRLs finding treasure.

Best wishes,
J_P


Hi J_P.
I would like at least other 2 persons, not alone. It is different if 3 or more persons check the PD from Morgan and say "OK, it work", and different if only Geo see it. Some people will say maybe Geo did not saw well, maybe he is friend with Morgan etc.

Regards:)

[ivconic]

Hi J_P.
I would like at least other 2 persons, not alone. It is different if 3 or more persons check the PD from Morgan and say "OK, it work", and different if only Geo see it. Some people will say maybe Geo did not saw well, maybe he is friend with Morgan etc.

Regards:)


But also "he" is friend with ivconic - the sceptic! :lol: So...I know Geo is descent man and he will act fair about this.
Geo it is very good idea - trip to Portugal.
I am very sorry cose i can't afford it right now.
It is not the question of beleive and faith here. It is just good more people to examine it. More eyes,more brains, more experiences, more knowledge.
So..i am looking forward to hear news. Also, you bring camera and shot some videos so later to put on youtube or here.
Soon as i collect enough informations on this, i would start making it and try to achieve some results. Of course; this forum would be the place to post experiences.

[Qiaozhi]

Is any way to put MAX out of the RS project ?
He already said PD is a CRAP,so he is only disturbing people here.
I vote against Max in RS project
Max was very much a part of the original back-engineering. Without him we would not have the amount of information that we have today. It was a real team effort. So ... Captain p00p, or not :lol: ... as long as the really negative comments stay in the open forum that's ok.

[hung]

Is any way to put MAX out of the RS project ?
He already said PD is a CRAP,so he is only disturbing people here.
I vote against Max in RS project

Hey Morgan,

If Max was going to be voted out of the RS forum, then Qiaozhi would have to face the same fate.
He does not learn, chooses to remain ignorant and worse, contributes so the others remain ignorant also.

At least Max, although skepthic and ignorant about the science behind LRLs, is not 'cocky' and materialistic minded as Ozzy. Max's only problem is his silly jokes about Esteban's posts. But I guess it's just a self defense against what he can't comprehend.

Now one will wonder why no critical info will ever be post in these forums.

[J_Player]

....then Qiaozhi would have to face the same fate.
He does not learn, chooses to remain ignorant and worse, contributes so the others remain ignorant also.
...Now one will wonder why no critical info will ever be post in these forums.Hi hung,

So what is Qiaozhi supposed to learn?
You want him to learn the critical info you post when you debunker science?
Qiaozhi started this thread by quoting the information you posted to debunker someone's misconception about gold: "Gold is the most powerful 'self defensive' metal when it comes to avoid any harm to its structure, such as rust, oxidation, etc. Its DNA produces a substance which coats the metal to fight against those 'threats'."
From: http://www.geotech1.com/forums/showp...8&postcount=41 (http://www.geotech1.com/forums/showpost.php?p=84058&postcount=41)

I think you posted false information about the properties of gold. And I also think Qiaozhi is correct when he implies that gold does not have DNA, nor does gold DNA produce any protective substance. But maybe I am wrong to think Qiaozhi is correct and you are wrong. Maybe I am unable to learn what you teach also.

Do you believe Qiaozhi should abandon what he was taught about gold in science classes, and learn the facts you want us to believe so we can have the same critical information that you have?

Best wishes,
J_P

[Fred]

Now one will wonder why no critical info will ever be post in these forums.
As long as no critical info will be posted, you will not be taken seriously.
But i think it´s you masochist side and you like it :D

[hung]

'Learning' is a process someone chooses to absorb or not, subjectively speaking, a piece of information based (and corroborated) by their own survey.

'Respect', objectively speaking, for other's own ideas and experiences is the least expected in this forum regarding 'etiquette'.

When one faces a piece of information which he does not agrees or ignores, 'I don't agree' and 'I don't have sufficient data to coment on' are the words that should be used. The wise, remains silent upon what he does not know.
Qiaozhi, since the start of his appearances chose to attack the proponent, discarding politeness.

He may remain ignoring LRL subjects as he wish...But 'respect' is a word he can no longer choose to ignore.

[J_Player]

When one faces a piece of information which he does not agrees or ignores, 'I don't agree' and 'I don't have sufficient data to coment on' are the words that should be used. The wise, remains silent upon what he does not know.Hi hung,

I have not remained silent, because I do know. I would feel stupid if I said 'I don't agree' and 'I don't have sufficient data to coment on' the DNA of gold.
The fact is I do have sufficient data. Gold DNA does not exist!
At least that is what I believe based on the properties of gold that I was taught.

Can you explain your own ideas and experiences with gold that might convince Qiaozhi or the rest of us forum readers that gold has DNA that produces a substance to protect it?

Best wishes,
J_P

[hung]

Hi hung,

I have not remained silent, because I do know. I would feel stupid if I said 'I don't agree' and 'I don't have sufficient data to coment on' the DNA of gold.

Yes I know. I was refering to Qiaozhi's 'memorabilia' on dowsing for instance.

Can you explain your own ideas and experiences with gold that might convince Qiaozhi or the rest of us forum readers that gold has DNA that produces a substance to protect it?


This is a private survey I'm involved.
I have absolutely no interest whasoever in discussing it or convincing anyone about it. But even if I did have... no, I beleive I would not be able to convince you or some skeptics here and I doubt it that I would ever be.
Too many other aspects involved which 'conventional' science still has no data. Sorry.
Gotta go now.

[Fred]

'Respect', objectively speaking, for other's own ideas and experiences is the least expected in this forum regarding 'etiquette'.

When one faces a piece of information which he does not agrees or ignores, 'I don't agree' and 'I don't have sufficient data to coment on' are the words that should be used. The wise, remains silent
I agree with you Hung :shocked: ,
but then, how do you call this ? :
"Don't waste your time with Ozzy... The only thing here that trully does not work is himself!"
To me, you are just the incompetent 'engineer' who besides being incapable of cloning the PD right, also made the schematics with a lot of mistakes.(...)You' are a joke Ozzy.
And many more...

[Qiaozhi]

Yes I know. I was refering to Qiaozhi's 'memorabilia' on dowsing for instance.

This is a private survey I'm involved.
I have absolutely no interest whasoever in discussing it or convincing anyone about it. But even if I did have... no, I beleive I would not be able to convince you or some skeptics here and I doubt it that I would ever be.
Too many other aspects involved which 'conventional' science still has no data. Sorry.
Gotta go now.
I think you have been spending too much time emailing your hero Myron Evans .... isn't that true? ... Dr. Hung. :notalk:

[Max]

Is any way to put MAX out of the RS project ?
He already said PD is a CRAP,so he is only disturbing people here.
I vote against Max in RS project

:D I just posted the truth...about you and PD stuff... you posted fake informations, everybody knows.

Where's that 7th board, captain burro !? :rolleyes:

Kind regards,
Max

[Max]

Hey Morgan,

If Max was going to be voted out of the RS forum, then Qiaozhi would have to face the same fate.
He does not learn, chooses to remain ignorant and worse, contributes so the others remain ignorant also.

At least Max, although skepthic and ignorant about the science behind LRLs, is not 'cocky' and materialistic minded as Ozzy. Max's only problem is his silly jokes about Esteban's posts. But I guess it's just a self defense against what he can't comprehend.

Now one will wonder why no critical info will ever be post in these forums.

Did you forget that I MADE a clone of that thing and gave me just random beeps...?

Cause before I say that some info were misleading I checked carefully the whole circuit, made pcb, cloned coils etc then tested on soil...

I'm not closed-minded , I tested PD like I tested zahori before and other circuits... with PD, with the informations provided one can get just random beeps.

The fact PD detects large items (e.g. big metallic doors) is by its internal md that's a metal-detector, works as metal-detector and provide metal detection.

It's the same than having a good off-resonance md ... with a big metallic door at few meters... will detect it! :lol:

But about LRL behaviour or description... there was lack of informations and SURE misleading informations as well, it's a fact, not opinion.

Then we could also talk if some device could work as LRL or not... but topic here is about PD and Morgan-provided informations...:rolleyes:

About Qiaozhi... he spent time and efforts too... to make people have details how to replicate PD... and for reverse engineering... team work, as described so I don't understand your attack to him.

Kind regards,
Max

[Qiaozhi]

:D I just posted the truth...about you and PD stuff... you posted fake informations, everybody knows.

Where's that 7th board, captain burro !? :rolleyes:

Kind regards,
Max
I don't really blame Morgan too much for that. It happened at a time when things were a bit tense, and certain members were worried that the skeptics were getting too close to a successful cloning operation. I think Morgan was trying to be open, and genuinely wanted help, but was persuaded by the Bureau of Misinformation to post that stuff. Fortunately gullible is not our middle name, and we were not mislead by that, or the fake video.

[J_Player]

Can you explain your own ideas and experiences with gold that might convince Qiaozhi or the rest of us forum readers that gold has DNA that produces a substance to protect it?

Originally posted by hung
This is a private survey I'm involved.
I have absolutely no interest whasoever in discussing it or convincing anyone about it. But even if I did have... no, I beleive I would not be able to convince you or some skeptics here and I doubt it that I would ever be.
Too many other aspects involved which 'conventional' science still has no data. Sorry.
Gotta go now.Wow..!!!
You really found gold DNA and a substance it produces to protect it from rust, oxidation etc?
But you have no proof to show, because it is another secret?

Hmmmm....

Maybe this is the reason the remote sensing forum rules state "Be factual. If you make an extraordinary claim, be prepared to get challenged".
I guess the best you can do is to fail to show anything to back up your claim about gold DNA or the substance it produces to protect gold from rust, oxidation, etc.

But if you can't back up your extrordinary claims, how do you expect readers to believe your stories and theories?

Best wishes,
J_P

[Esteban]

Hey Morgan,

If Max was going to be voted out of the RS forum, then Qiaozhi would have to face the same fate.
He does not learn, chooses to remain ignorant and worse, contributes so the others remain ignorant also.

At least Max, although skepthic and ignorant about the science behind LRLs, is not 'cocky' and materialistic minded as Ozzy. Max's only problem is his silly jokes about Esteban's posts. But I guess it's just a self defense against what he can't comprehend.

Now one will wonder why no critical info will ever be post in these forums.

Discussion will be focused on topics.

[Morgan]

:D I just posted the truth...about you and PD stuff... you posted fake informations, everybody knows.

Where's that 7th board, captain burro !? :rolleyes:

Kind regards,
Max
Each time i become more curious about you.You have real head problems.
I think you should come with Geo to Portugal,traveling will help you...
Sure you will like to know the true about PD,than you can tell to everybody in forum your experience.

[Morgan]

Hi J_P.
I would like at least other 2 persons, not alone. It is different if 3 or more persons check the PD from Morgan and say "OK, it work", and different if only Geo see it. Some people will say maybe Geo did not saw well, maybe he is friend with Morgan etc.

Regards:)
You,and your friends who decide to come here,are wellcome.
Once for all this forum needs the true about PD.
Also other LRL,Mineoro and others are ready to test.
Hotel here is not expensive,so if you have free time,can visit south of Portugal...

[Geo]

Hi Morgan. I dont like to come alone. I want and other members. For me is a easy way to see the original PD working. We try here 1.5 year to clone it without results and we dont pay 1000 euro to go a traver (as holiday) to Portugal to see the PD.
Regards:)

[Geo]

Maybe Manolo can visit Portugal....
Eee Manolo where are you????
Regards:)

[ivconic]

Discussion will be focused on topics.

Yes fellas, Esteban is right. Don't let this turn into spittin' arena. Better use same energy on pro et contra facts on this subject.

[Max]

Each time i become more curious about you.You have real head problems.
I think you should come with Geo to Portugal,traveling will help you...
Sure you will like to know the true about PD,than you can tell to everybody in forum your experience.

Last time I was in Spain I was about always drunk and tired... not a good starting point to check the PD... :lol:
You know... every night at the club... :D
I'd like to visit south of Portugal... though seems already now very hot indeed...:shocked: expecially at summer it IS...problem is that I can't do that cause I'm too busy here... maybe I don't make any holidays this year...

What to say... hope someone full of goodwill will see that PD working!:rolleyes:

Kind regards,
Max

[J_Player]

Yes fellas, Esteban is right. Don't let this turn into spittin' arena. Better use same energy on pro et contra facts on this subject. Ok, back to the facts on subject of this thread: Quaozhi's discussion of the DNA of gold.

I must admit, I am skeptical about the existence of gold DNA, or a substance it produces that protects gold against rust, corrosion, etc. After searching every detail I could think of that might lead to information about the DNA of gold, I came up with nothing.

Does gold have DNA?
DNA is a nucleic acid that contains the genetic instructions used in the development and functioning of all known living organisms and some viruses. As far as I know, gold has never been alive, and has no cells or cell nuclei. Thus it cannot produce any organic acids that store genetic data, nor can the non-existent gold DNA produce any other substances that would protect gold from rust, oxidation, etc.

But hung maintains it is true, gold does have DNA, but he is not interested in explaining anything about it. This leads me to wonder why hung would say this in the first place when he has no interest in explaining anything to back up his claim?

Can you explain your own ideas and experiences with gold that might convince Qiaozhi or the rest of us forum readers that gold has DNA that produces a substance to protect it?

Originally posted by hung
This is a private survey I'm involved.
I have absolutely no interest whasoever in discussing it or convincing anyone about it. But even if I did have... no, I beleive I would not be able to convince you or some skeptics here and I doubt it that I would ever be.
Too many other aspects involved which 'conventional' science still has no data. Sorry.
Gotta go now.I can only speculate that this is part of hung's "debunkering" campaign to post his correct information in this forum when he sees people believing wrong science. Or perhaps the meaning was lost between the time hung thought of his idea of gold DNA, and when he debunkered in the forum. Maybe some alternate translations of what hung was thinking are in order...

Possible translations of hung's answer:
1. Hahahahaaa I was able to get away with posting that gold DNA crap by using the old "secret research BS" trick.
2. If I told anyone about the gold DNA I saw with the electron microscope that I built from kitchen utensils and an old Mr, Coffee pot, they still wouldn't believe me.
3. Somebody in Myron Evans forum said gold has DNA. This pretty much proves gold has DNA. Too bad I can't reveal any secret information I learn in the Myron Evans forum.
4. Hmmmm... I looked everywhere for gold DNA, but I can't seem to find it. Note to self: Next time I make up some science and tell people it is a fact, first check online to see if I can find someone who agrees with me.

Not sure if my translations are correct or not.

Best wishes,
J_P

[ivconic]

Gold or any other metal does not have DNA...of course, but do have specific atomic structure which in a way we may take as its "DNA".... I guess Hung wanted to point on some specific feature which makes gold different than other metals and unique. We can name many features here. Which one Hung has on his mind..i dont know.
About corrosion; gold does not corrode, yes it is a fact. But gold also is producing (in time) certain patina. I really can not explain what exactly it is (actually i can...read more). But i guess it present some inpurities that gold "reject" in time, under objective influences.
Also you forgot one very important fact; if we are talking about golden items in soil, than you must know those are not made from 100% gold, but from various alloys. Usually gold was mixed with Cu,Ag and Fe in ancient times. To be specific on this we must take exact item and study it and it's origin, history, krafting technique and civilisation (habits) which made that item. Than we will know exact metal percentages in that alloy.
So...if it was Au/Fe alloy than it is no wonder to find some corrosion in traces on item surface, no matter it is golden. More Fe in that alloy - more corrosion....etc...etc...
You understand what i want to say?
Do not consider term "gold", oftenly used here, as pure 100% gold. But keep in mind that it was most probably some alloy.

[J_Player]

I guess Hung wanted to point on some specific feature which makes gold different than other metals and unique. We can name many features here. Which one Hung has on his mind..i dont know.Hi Ivconic,
I first thought hung only meant to point out some specific feature which makes gold different and unique like you did. But when I read how he says the gold DNA produces a substance which coats the metal, I realized he is talking about nucleic acid produciing an organic substance. I agree with you, that this is not the case for gold, or any other solid metallic object.

About corrosion; gold does not corrode, yes it is a fact. But gold also is producing (in time) certain patina. I really can not explain what exactly it is (actually i can...read more). But i guess it present some inpurities that gold "reject" in time, under objective influences.
Also you forgot one very important fact; if we are talking about golden items in soil, than you must know those are not made from 100% gold, but from various alloys. Usually gold was mixed with Cu,Ag and Fe in ancient times.
You are correct about gold having other alloying elements. Natural gold often has similar alloying elements as are used in jewery, and in similar concentrations. Gold nuggets can be found with over 90% gold, or under 50%. California gold nuggets are usually in the 90% range. The alloying elements are usually silver and copper, and in lesser amounts, lead, platinum, tellurium, zinc or other metals. I sometimes wonder how much of the alloying elements corrode from a long-time buried piece of gold.

But the idea that gold does not corrode has been proven to be false. When you look at a gold item, You cannot see signs of corrosion over the years, but you can sometimes see a patina, as you described. No doubt, the patina has is caused by alloying elements and abrasion to the surface. However, scientists have discovered that long-time buried gold does corrode. The amount is much less than for copper, but enough gold corrodes to cause gold ions to go into solution with the soil around it amd migrate up to the surface, where it quickly becomes bound with elements at the surface and becomes part of the soil as a gold compound or microscopic metallic gold. Althopugh the process is slow, large amounts of gold are moving in the soil by this method. The corrosion of gold under the ground is not something that would happen easily above the surface, because there are colonies of microorganisms below the surface that are excreting chemicals such as cyanide and suolfur complexes which are capable of dissolving gold and suspending it in the soil as ions. A particular strain of gold-attacking bacteria has caused concerns at Fort Knox about the shrinkage of gold ingots stored below in vaults. (These vaults do not allow the gold bars to touch the soil, yet these bacteria are still corroding gold from the surface of the bars. The particular strain thrives dark,places without much oxygen like underground vaults or in the soil or rock crevices below the soil).

There are other microbes that can actually precipitate metallic gold from the ions that are released into the soil, thus forming new nuggets some distance above the original gold that was below. They have also been observed to deposit new, very pure gold on the surface of existing nuggets. Does this sound hard to believe? If it is true, it means there are gold ions in the soil, and not just a few unmeasurable ions, but enough to make nuggets from.

According to geomicrobiologist Frank Reith, "...the precipitation of gold by micro-organisms, and thus in the biomineralisation of gold, which as recent evidence suggests has led to the formation of some of the world largest gold deposits."
But in addition to micro-organisms precipitating metallic gold, there are microbes that ionize and dissolve gold:
"In soils with high contents of organic matter heterotrophic bacteria and fungi appear to dominate the gold dissolution by excreting amino acids, low molecular weight organic acids (LMWOAs), cyanide or organic sulfur compounds. These molecules were shown to have the ability to dissolve native gold and act as complexing agents for the resulting gold ions."

Wet soil samples were incubated with these microbes, then gold pellets were added to the soil. After 20-30 days of incubation, up to 3 ppm of gold was found in solution, compared to none measurable in the sterilized soil samples with gold pellets.
Now, how do atoms from a gold pellet get into solution? They have to become ionized first! Thus it cannot be true that buried gold does not form ions. We are talking about small amounts (3ppm), But this is the amount measured in some small sample test areas after a month in the ground. The investigations into mine sites from the real world show that this process can happen on a much larger scale, creating nuggets that are very pure where microbes precipitated the gold (98% and better).

Not all gold nuggets are created by microbes. Many are formed with cooling molten rock masses. The gold formed by microbes is derived from these primary gold sources in the ground. But it has been discovered that there are many nuggets which have a rich outer gold shell, and a lower purity gold in the center. In some cases these were nuggets formed by molten gold cooling, then later, microbes deposited a layer of higher purity gold on the top surfaces.
Because it takes some time for these microbes to ionize buried gold metal and put it in solution with the surrounding soil, it tells us that long time buried gold is different than fresh gold that was recently put in the ground. In addition, there are microbes that will attack the other metals alloyed with gold like silver, copper, platinum, etc. According to these studies, some soil is richer in these gold-eating microbes than other soil, so we can expect some soils to show a greater difference between fresh gold and long time buried gold.

In the case of the other microbes that convert the ions back into gold metal, we will find gold nuggets that have ions around them being converted into metallic gold to precipitate and grow the nugget. These new gold nuggets may have similar halo properties as gold that is decomposing. Check here to read this article:
http://crcleme.org.au/NewsEvents/News/Archive/2004/AUSIMMReith.pdf (http://crcleme.org.au/NewsEvents/News/Archive/2004/AUSIMMReith.pdf)

There are over a million reports on microbes that convert gold to ions, and other microbes that convert gold ions to gold metal in the soil. These include much larger concentrations of gold ions, enough to precipitate gold nuggets. See these reports showing how microbes convert gold to ions, and other microbes that convert gold ions to gold metal in the soil:

Microbes manufacture gold nuggets: http://www.geotimes.org/sept06/NN_Microbes.html (http://www.geotimes.org/sept06/NN_Microbes.html)
Electron micrographs of microbes moving gold associated with Au(III) reduction:
http://aem.asm.org/cgi/reprint/67/7/3275.pdf (http://aem.asm.org/cgi/reprint/67/7/3275.pdf)
Microbes convert dissolved gold into solid metallic gold:
http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/stories/s1032376.htm (http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/stories/s1032376.htm)
Report says scientists have ascertained the microbe’s process converts approximately 1% of exposed gold per year.
http://www.sandersresearch.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1171 (http://www.sandersresearch.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1171)
http://www.ornl.gov/info/ornlreview/rev32_3/amazing.htm (http://www.ornl.gov/info/ornlreview/rev32_3/amazing.htm)

You will find over a million reports on microbes that eat and ionize gold and other metals if you google for "gold microbe": http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=gold+microbe&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f&oq=&aqi (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=gold+microbe&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f&oq=&aqi)=

There are several gold corroding chemical processes that have been documented in different locations depending on the soil conditions. In soils with high organic content, the microbe strains that dissolve gold are mostly microbes that produce cyanide and organic acids and complexes which react with metallic gold and bind it in the complex. This complex goes into solution in the soil, and moves with the subterranean moisture. Much different microbes that live only on metallic gold surfaces are able to digest the dissolved ions and precipitate them onto the nuggets where they live. Various chemical mechanisms have been documented, but the researchers are still working to unravel the mysteries of how these processes change in different soils. Apparently the ability of microbes to adapt to their environment is an important part of the puzzle.

Here are a few pages about cyanide producing microbes that dissolve gold:
Microscopic plants and fungi Produce cyanide which is thought to have dissolved ancient gold deposits in alluvial sands:
http://books.google.com/books?id=L8Be8rprGgkC&pg=PA495&lpg=PA495&dq=microbe+gold+cyanide&source=web&ots=E9FBKen7LJ&sig=jaLBLd1JAjV9BDA5NOEGPuoR_co#PPA494,M1 (http://books.google.com/books?id=L8Be8rprGgkC&pg=PA495&lpg=PA495&dq=microbe+gold+cyanide&source=web&ots=E9FBKen7LJ&sig=jaLBLd1JAjV9BDA5NOEGPuoR_co#PPA494,M1)

30 species of microorganisms including bacteria, yeasts, actinomycetes, fungi and algae were found to accumulate gold from laboratory solutions. This abstract also describes how Pseudomonas cells can be treated to absorb and desorb gold on demand. http://www.springerlink.com/content/u142554485g84k31/ (http://www.springerlink.com/content/u142554485g84k31/)

Microbes moving gold in Southern Australia by various chemical methods:
http://crcleme.org.au/NewsEvents/News/Archive/2004/AUSIMMReith.pdf (http://crcleme.org.au/NewsEvents/News/Archive/2004/AUSIMMReith.pdf)

I just finished reading over an hour of reports on mining exploration where they claim they have been finding gold ions that rise in a column to the surface soil above buried gold ores. According to Dr. Mark Fedikow, exploration geochemist and mineral deposits geologist, approximately 1000 sample sites have been analyzed using the mobile metal ion process (MMI) to locate gold and other mineral deposits since 1993 in over 30 countries. Dr. fedikow says the MMI technique of chemical and electronic analysis results in distinctive anomalies directly over mineralized zones. The MMI sampling has been successful for finding metal ions in the surface soil from Cu, Pb, Zn Cd, Ni, Co, Pd, Au, Ag, Cr, Nb, and Mg. The technology to locate these mineral deposits was developed by an Australian company who measures ions in the parts per billion and sub-parts per billion range in surface soil. The main testing laboratory for the MMI surveys is SGS Group.

See the SGS Group page that explains the movement of ions uward here: http://www.geochem.sgs.com/mmi__theory_geochem (http://www.geochem.sgs.com/mmi__theory_geochem)
See more web reports about sampling the soil for traces of metal from the vertical movement of metal ions here:
http://geea.geoscienceworld.org/cgi/content/abstract/5/3/201 (http://geea.geoscienceworld.org/cgi/content/abstract/5/3/201)
http://www.diggerresources.com/hdrg.htm (http://www.diggerresources.com/hdrg.htm)
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0EIN/is_2005_Jan_7/ai_n8682755/ (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0EIN/is_2005_Jan_7/ai_n8682755/)
See more than 250,000 web pages showing reports of gold ions being measured in near-surface soil with MMI techniques here: http://www.google.com/search?q=mmi+gold&hl=en&start=10&sa=N (http://www.google.com/search?q=mmi+gold&hl=en&start=10&sa=N)

The point is, even though you don't see much gold corrosion, it is happening, and causing gold ions to move through the soil in a vertical column that can be detected by chemical surveys of the soil. Can it also be detected by an LRL?

Best wishes,
J_P

[Dell Winders]

EXCELLENT!

[Qiaozhi]

The technology to locate these mineral deposits was developed by an Australian company who measures ions in the parts per billion and sub-parts per billion range in surface soil.
Therefore the conclusion is that a column of ions hovering in the air above a gold target is nonsense, and (even if any gold ions present were not bound by the soil) their numbers would be so few as to be undetectable at any distance, let alone several meters.

EXCELLENT!
Selective memory at work again?
:lol: :lol: :lol:

:) "WHAT DOESN'T WORK, CANNOT BE MADE TO WORK" :)

[ivconic]

I didn't knew that, really. But i can accept that. Usuallly i am having conventional knowledge (laic you may say) on subjects out of my primary focus. So..this is very nice article you posted here, let's us to learn more details on this subject. Excellent post J Player! Thank you!

[Max]

Hi,
gold is not organic stuff... have no DNA... DNA is specific of organic tissue and material that's found in life-forms not metals.

Now... the concept is totally bogus referred to gold... and even if gold has metallic structure there isn't any DNA or DNA like behaviour.

The complex chemical exchanges that are performed at DNA molecules are not even comparable with chemical reactions that take place, under particular conditions, between gold and other (very few) elements.

The problem is Hung and LRL-pretenders bind gold with something particular behaviour that indeed doesn't exist... as doesn't exist e.g. a particular frequency for gold so it's employed in so called MFD-devices... that are actually just scams...

Most of LRL-pretenders belive in "mystical" properties of gold... that simply there aren't. If we talk about physics or chemistry there's a way to understand the facts about gold and its interactions with soil etc... and I belive there are compounds and ions of it around e.g. old time buried stuff... but problem is that when people talk of that DNA and other silly issues they are automatically pissed-off... :lol:

Like happened with Hung again...

I would say , instead, JP issues are truly interesting and based on real science... not pseudo-science!;)

Kind regards,
Max

[Qiaozhi]

I would say , instead, JP issues are truly interesting and based on real science... not pseudo-science!;)
Agreed ... and that information also demonstrates that so-called LRL devices, based on remote detection of gold ions floating in the air, are completely bogus.

If a device, such as Morgan's PD, is truly capable of long-range detection (and we are talking about meters here, not miles) then the basis of detection has nothing to do with gold ions.

The stuff that JP posted requires the taking of soil samples, that are later analyzed in the lab using extremely sensitive and expensive equipment, not an nicely polished wooden box from Brazil filled with old radios and beepers.

[Fred]

Dell,
Is that you in this video ? :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNQBO6gKMU8&feature=response_watch

Is that the way you have found to use your surplus of components, because you don´t know how to solder, and L-rods dont´t sell too well lately?

[Qiaozhi]

Dell,
Is that you in this video ? :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNQBO6gKMU8&feature=response_watch

Is that the way you have found to use your surplus of components, because you don´t know how to solder, and L-rods dont´t sell too well lately?
Now I'm speechless! :notalk:

It's not Dell, but some other ... ;)
And there are actually people who believe this crap. Well good luck to them and the wallet-miner in the video. They deserve each other. :razz:

Here's the guy's website -> http://www.idhhb.com/

Warning ... please don't injure yourself laughing. :lol:

[Qiaozhi]

And then there's this ->
http://www.yoyodyneindustries.com/meditation_beta_blockers/deepdeltadreamers.html

Watch the videos, but be careful ... I've already hurt myself. :barf:

[Fred]

Yes,now i feel sick too,
i think i should report the above post :lol:

[ivconic]

This is a matter of beleif. That charlatan (as so many others) is taking an advantage on human ignorance and beleif. Fear from unknown is most powerfull weapon. So...this is obvious proof (as so many seen in the past) of how much people on this sad world are actually liable to charlatanism.
But..it is not wonder at all.
Just remember claims from "Zeitgeist" where monetary system is proven to be established on our empty beleifs. Is there a God? No, of course not. Is there real material money in all those banks and even if there are paper money - there is not enough gold in national reserves to cover empty papers. So..of course not. Do we must serve to monetary system and its interests? Of course not. Than who is pushing us to have such beleifs? Who is pushing us to beleive in God? Who is pushing us to race for money?
Who is pushing us to accept and beleive in charlatanism like that?
Answer is; FEAR FROM UNKNOWN.
We may laugh on such stupid charlatan like that man on posted link...ha,ha,ha! It is obvious charlatanism.
But....we are also victims of our own beleifs.
It is just a matter of levels. Our beleifs are on higher levels, but still are product of our personal fears from unknown.
Higher the level - more freedom.

Do not blame charlatans - blame people who beleive them!

[Fred]

This is very true !
Charlatans would´ t exist if there was not someone to buy the stuff.Unfortunately education sometimes also play a role, and some can believe in them because their explanations look "scientifical"
It is easier for many people to live like submitted but with someone else taking responsabilities,so they don´t have to think too much,and feel protected.

[J_Player]

I didn't knew that, really. But i can accept that. Usuallly i am having conventional knowledge (laic you may say) on subjects out of my primary focus.

Originally posted by Qiaozhi
Therefore the conclusion is that a column of ions hovering in the air above a gold target is nonsense, and (even if any gold ions present were not bound by the soil) their numbers would be so few as to be undetectable at any distance, let alone several meters.Yes, I concluded many years ago that there is no ion column floating 7.2 feet in the air above the treasure. This is pseudoscience that can be proven to be false.

The source of this false information is the Mineoro website, probably written by Damasio or by Alonso. After reading all they have published on their website, I find it interesting they correctly concluded that ions move upward through the soil in a column pattern. I doubt they discovered this information by performing chemical analyses on soil saamples, but deduced that this must be happening based on their LRL and/or dowsing experiments. I also see a number of errors in their theories about mechanisms of long time buried metals, which also appear to have been arrived at by deducing things that appeared to be correct at the time, and with the tools they had at hand.

The idea that the gold ions rise 7.2 feet above the surface may be based on their ability to sense some effect of the "phenomenon" at that distance in the air. What comes to mind is they may be finding an anomaly in the electrostatic field in the air at that distance. Or it may be some other attribute of ionic activity below the surface of the soil that can be sensed in the air above. But it is certain that there is no cloud of hovering gold ions above the target area.

From what I have read, scientists in Australia first bagan to notice this column pattern of metal ions in the 1970s. After more than a decade of studying the mechanism, they funded a commercial branch to develop testing methods that would pinpoint deposits of gold and other industrial metals. The mobile metal ion testing is also used for surveying for minerals that are important for agricultural industries.

The conclusions about ions moving under the ground published by the Mineoro website are the same as the conclusions published by the mobile metal ion testing laboratories. What is different with the mobile metal ion testing laboratories is their conclusions are based on empirical data they observed in test results, not deductions they assumed were correct. Perhaps this is the reason they did not make the error of assuming there are ions hovering 7.2 feet in the air above the ions in the soil.

Best wishes,
J_P

[Esteban]

Hi Ivconic,
I first thought hung only meant to point out some specific feature which makes gold different and unique like you did. But when I read how he says the gold DNA produces a substance which coats the metal, I realized he is talking about nucleic acid produciing an organic substance. I agree with you, that this is not the case for gold, or any other solid metallic object.

You are correct about gold having other alloying elements. Natural gold often has similar alloying elements as are used in jewery, and in similar concentrations. Gold nuggets can be found with over 90% gold, or under 50%. California gold nuggets are usually in the 90% range. The alloying elements are usually silver and copper, and in lesser amounts, lead, platinum, tellurium, zinc or other metals. I sometimes wonder how much of the alloying elements corrode from a long-time buried piece of gold.

But the idea that gold does not corrode has been proven to be false. When you look at a gold item, You cannot see signs of corrosion over the years, but you can sometimes see a patina, as you described. No doubt, the patina has is caused by alloying elements and abrasion to the surface. However, scientists have discovered that long-time buried gold does corrode. The amount is much less than for copper, but enough gold corrodes to cause gold ions to go into solution with the soil around it amd migrate up to the surface, where it quickly becomes bound with elements at the surface and becomes part of the soil as a gold compound or microscopic metallic gold. Althopugh the process is slow, large amounts of gold are moving in the soil by this method. The corrosion of gold under the ground is not something that would happen easily above the surface, because there are colonies of microorganisms below the surface that are excreting chemicals such as cyanide and suolfur complexes which are capable of dissolving gold and suspending it in the soil as ions. A particular strain of gold-attacking bacteria has caused concerns at Fort Knox about the shrinkage of gold ingots stored below in vaults. (These vaults do not allow the gold bars to touch the soil, yet these bacteria are still corroding gold from the surface of the bars. The particular strain thrives dark,places without much oxygen like underground vaults or in the soil or rock crevices below the soil).

There are other microbes that can actually precipitate metallic gold from the ions that are released into the soil, thus forming new nuggets some distance above the original gold that was below. They have also been observed to deposit new, very pure gold on the surface of existing nuggets. Does this sound hard to believe? If it is true, it means there are gold ions in the soil, and not just a few unmeasurable ions, but enough to make nuggets from.

According to geomicrobiologist Frank Reith, "...the precipitation of gold by micro-organisms, and thus in the biomineralisation of gold, which as recent evidence suggests has led to the formation of some of the world largest gold deposits."
But in addition to micro-organisms precipitating metallic gold, there are microbes that ionize and dissolve gold:
"In soils with high contents of organic matter heterotrophic bacteria and fungi appear to dominate the gold dissolution by excreting amino acids, low molecular weight organic acids (LMWOAs), cyanide or organic sulfur compounds. These molecules were shown to have the ability to dissolve native gold and act as complexing agents for the resulting gold ions."

Wet soil samples were incubated with these microbes, then gold pellets were added to the soil. After 20-30 days of incubation, up to 3 ppm of gold was found in solution, compared to none measurable in the sterilized soil samples with gold pellets.
Now, how do atoms from a gold pellet get into solution? They have to become ionized first! Thus it cannot be true that buried gold does not form ions. We are talking about small amounts (3ppm), But this is the amount measured in some small sample test areas after a month in the ground. The investigations into mine sites from the real world show that this process can happen on a much larger scale, creating nuggets that are very pure where microbes precipitated the gold (98% and better).

Not all gold nuggets are created by microbes. Many are formed with cooling molten rock masses. The gold formed by microbes is derived from these primary gold sources in the ground. But it has been discovered that there are many nuggets which have a rich outer gold shell, and a lower purity gold in the center. In some cases these were nuggets formed by molten gold cooling, then later, microbes deposited a layer of higher purity gold on the top surfaces.
Because it takes some time for these microbes to ionize buried gold metal and put it in solution with the surrounding soil, it tells us that long time buried gold is different than fresh gold that was recently put in the ground. In addition, there are microbes that will attack the other metals alloyed with gold like silver, copper, platinum, etc. According to these studies, some soil is richer in these gold-eating microbes than other soil, so we can expect some soils to show a greater difference between fresh gold and long time buried gold.

In the case of the other microbes that convert the ions back into gold metal, we will find gold nuggets that have ions around them being converted into metallic gold to precipitate and grow the nugget. These new gold nuggets may have similar halo properties as gold that is decomposing. Check here to read this article:
http://crcleme.org.au/NewsEvents/News/Archive/2004/AUSIMMReith.pdf (http://crcleme.org.au/NewsEvents/News/Archive/2004/AUSIMMReith.pdf)

There are over a million reports on microbes that convert gold to ions, and other microbes that convert gold ions to gold metal in the soil. These include much larger concentrations of gold ions, enough to precipitate gold nuggets. See these reports showing how microbes convert gold to ions, and other microbes that convert gold ions to gold metal in the soil:

Microbes manufacture gold nuggets: http://www.geotimes.org/sept06/NN_Microbes.html (http://www.geotimes.org/sept06/NN_Microbes.html)
Electron micrographs of microbes moving gold associated with Au(III) reduction:
http://aem.asm.org/cgi/reprint/67/7/3275.pdf (http://aem.asm.org/cgi/reprint/67/7/3275.pdf)
Microbes convert dissolved gold into solid metallic gold:
http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/stories/s1032376.htm (http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/stories/s1032376.htm)
Report says scientists have ascertained the microbe’s process converts approximately 1% of exposed gold per year.
http://www.sandersresearch.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1171 (http://www.sandersresearch.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1171)
http://www.ornl.gov/info/ornlreview/rev32_3/amazing.htm (http://www.ornl.gov/info/ornlreview/rev32_3/amazing.htm)

You will find over a million reports on microbes that eat and ionize gold and other metals if you google for "gold microbe": http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=gold+microbe&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f&oq=&aqi (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=gold+microbe&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f&oq=&aqi)=

There are several gold corroding chemical processes that have been documented in different locations depending on the soil conditions. In soils with high organic content, the microbe strains that dissolve gold are mostly microbes that produce cyanide and organic acids and complexes which react with metallic gold and bind it in the complex. This complex goes into solution in the soil, and moves with the subterranean moisture. Much different microbes that live only on metallic gold surfaces are able to digest the dissolved ions and precipitate them onto the nuggets where they live. Various chemical mechanisms have been documented, but the researchers are still working to unravel the mysteries of how these processes change in different soils. Apparently the ability of microbes to adapt to their environment is an important part of the puzzle.

Here are a few pages about cyanide producing microbes that dissolve gold:
Microscopic plants and fungi Produce cyanide which is thought to have dissolved ancient gold deposits in alluvial sands:
http://books.google.com/books?id=L8Be8rprGgkC&pg=PA495&lpg=PA495&dq=microbe+gold+cyanide&source=web&ots=E9FBKen7LJ&sig=jaLBLd1JAjV9BDA5NOEGPuoR_co#PPA494,M1 (http://books.google.com/books?id=L8Be8rprGgkC&pg=PA495&lpg=PA495&dq=microbe+gold+cyanide&source=web&ots=E9FBKen7LJ&sig=jaLBLd1JAjV9BDA5NOEGPuoR_co#PPA494,M1)

30 species of microorganisms including bacteria, yeasts, actinomycetes, fungi and algae were found to accumulate gold from laboratory solutions. This abstract also describes how Pseudomonas cells can be treated to absorb and desorb gold on demand. http://www.springerlink.com/content/u142554485g84k31/ (http://www.springerlink.com/content/u142554485g84k31/)

Microbes moving gold in Southern Australia by various chemical methods:
http://crcleme.org.au/NewsEvents/News/Archive/2004/AUSIMMReith.pdf (http://crcleme.org.au/NewsEvents/News/Archive/2004/AUSIMMReith.pdf)

I just finished reading over an hour of reports on mining exploration where they claim they have been finding gold ions that rise in a column to the surface soil above buried gold ores. According to Dr. Mark Fedikow, exploration geochemist and mineral deposits geologist, approximately 1000 sample sites have been analyzed using the mobile metal ion process (MMI) to locate gold and other mineral deposits since 1993 in over 30 countries. Dr. fedikow says the MMI technique of chemical and electronic analysis results in distinctive anomalies directly over mineralized zones. The MMI sampling has been successful for finding metal ions in the surface soil from Cu, Pb, Zn Cd, Ni, Co, Pd, Au, Ag, Cr, Nb, and Mg. The technology to locate these mineral deposits was developed by an Australian company who measures ions in the parts per billion and sub-parts per billion range in surface soil. The main testing laboratory for the MMI surveys is SGS Group.

See the SGS Group page that explains the movement of ions uward here: http://www.geochem.sgs.com/mmi__theory_geochem (http://www.geochem.sgs.com/mmi__theory_geochem)
See more web reports about sampling the soil for traces of metal from the vertical movement of metal ions here:
http://geea.geoscienceworld.org/cgi/content/abstract/5/3/201 (http://geea.geoscienceworld.org/cgi/content/abstract/5/3/201)
http://www.diggerresources.com/hdrg.htm (http://www.diggerresources.com/hdrg.htm)
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0EIN/is_2005_Jan_7/ai_n8682755/ (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0EIN/is_2005_Jan_7/ai_n8682755/)
See more than 250,000 web pages showing reports of gold ions being measured in near-surface soil with MMI techniques here: http://www.google.com/search?q=mmi+gold&hl=en&start=10&sa=N (http://www.google.com/search?q=mmi+gold&hl=en&start=10&sa=N)

The point is, even though you don't see much gold corrosion, it is happening, and causing gold ions to move through the soil in a vertical column that can be detected by chemical surveys of the soil. Can it also be detected by an LRL?

Best wishes,
J_P

When I read Zahori's article, found the word "ionization" of water in movement. So, regarding this, I start thinking that around metal buried for long time can exist ionization, the famous halo. The word "ionization" and the famous column also you can see in Mineoro's pages. This is the reason why you put a chair and detection continue in vertical... an experiment made here 30 years ago. :lol:

And of course, can be detect by an electronic LRL via secondary effect, maybe a kind of "electric cloud", because when you remove the target, the site "breath". But I think also some gas trapped can produce it.

Regards

[Dell Winders]

Originally Posted by J_Player
The technology to locate these mineral deposits was developed by an Australian company who measures ions in the parts per billion and sub-parts per billion range in surface soil.
Therefore the conclusion is that a column of ions hovering in the air above a gold target is nonsense, and (even if any gold ions present were not bound by the soil) their numbers would be so few as to be undetectable at any distance, let alone several meters.

Originally Posted by Dell Winders
EXCELLENT!

Selective memory at work again?

Nope! You are wrong again. (a habitual trait?) That's NOT my theory, and never what I based any field studies on. I never heard of the Ion theory until I seen it discussed on Geotech by the Scientific pretenders.

I doubt that you have noticed that I have a tendency to lean towards metering concentrations of the earths magnetic field surrounding near surface anomalies. This is what all my DB field experiments, and tests are based on.

It works for me, but I'm just a dumb uneducated country hillbilly who has spent his years gaining practical field experience. Who am I to argue with text book Scientific experts? Dell

[Qiaozhi]

Nope! You are wrong again. (a habitual trait?) That's NOT my theory, and never what I based any field studies on. I never heard of the Ion theory until I seen it discussed on Geotech by the Scientific pretenders.

I doubt that you have noticed that I have a tendency to lean towards detecting concentrations of the earths magnetic field surrounding near surface anomalies. This is what all my DB field experiments, and tests are based on.

It works for me, but I'm just a dumb uneducated country hillbilly who has spent his years gaining practical field experience. Who am I to argue with text book Scientific experts? Dell
And what DB field experiments are these?
Please elucidate us.

:) "WHAT DOESN'T WORK, CANNOT BE MADE TO WORK." :)

[Dell Winders]

Why should I waste my time on your stupidity? Dell

[Fred]

Why should I waste my time on your stupidity? Dell
Why did you 3 posts above?

[Qiaozhi]

Why should I waste my time on your stupidity? Dell

You seem to have forgotten these simple rules:


Be polite. Name calling will get you banned quickly.
Be factual. If you make an extraordinary claim, be prepared to get challenged.

Clearly you have no idea of the definition of a double-blind test. That is why you are referring to DB field tests. In other words, randomly digging holes, and employing selective memory to make the results appear better than guessing. Plus confirming detection results with other non-working pseudo-scientific devices, or even (cough) dowsing.

No wonder you don't want to answer the question! :nono:

:) "WHAT DOESN'T WORK, CANNOT BE MADE TO WORK." :)

[Dell Winders]

J Player, despite the intrusion from the peanut gallery, I still enjoyed your excellent, informative article.

Thanks! Dell

[Qiaozhi]

J Player, despite the intrusion from the peanut gallery, I still enjoyed your excellent, informative article.

Thanks! Dell

This is what all my DB field experiments, and tests are based on.

It works for me, but I'm just a dumb uneducated country hillbilly who has spent his years gaining practical field experience. Who am I to argue with text book Scientific experts? Dell
But is completely unable to provide supporting evidence. Presumably because there isn't any. :razz:



:) "WHAT DOESN'T WORK, CANNOT BE MADE TO WORK." :)

[J_Player]

J Player, despite the intrusion from the peanut gallery, I still enjoyed your excellent, informative article.

Thanks! DellThank you Dell,

Perhaps you could answer my previous questions that have remained unansered:

Can you tell us the facts about the hundreds of double blind tests you conducted?
To start with, let's focus on a single one of the tests you conducted.

Pick out any one of your hundreds of double blind you want to use for an example:
1. Where was the test conducted?
2. Who was the proctor?
3. What was the protocal of this double blind dowsing test?
4. What was the object of the double blind test? A gold item? a silver item? something else?
5. Was the operator aware of any results before the test was fully completed?
6. What were the results?

Best wishes,
J_P

[Dell Winders]

Sorry JP, I don't have the time for all the stupid questions and remarks that follow.

You folks have made it quite clear for years that you are not interested in my 40 years of Treasure Hunting field experience, which encompasses field comparisons with most Treasure Hunting & recovery technologies.

I now relegate a small amount of time to viewing this forum, and an occasional comment, and shaking my head and smiling in disbelief at the Skeptic's intellect on this forum.

I do appreciate the time and effort it takes for you to collect and put together internet searches into an interesting single category. Thank you for that.

I've watched in disbelief for several years as you folks have fumbled thru concepts and far out theory's to try to figure out how Frequency Discrimination, LRL's or Dowsing works, only to conclude that it doesn't, and those that are doing what you say can't be done, are liars, frauds, and scam artists. That's not a mentality I can respect.

So no thanks, to your request for me to elaborate. I will say, I use the KISS method, and my most recent blind comparison tests, between a magnetometer, and a pair of Dowsing Rods, demonstrated there is a definite correlation between the magnetic "strength of field" of the earth, and the reaction of a pair of Copper, hand held, Dowsing Rods, to the SOF of buried magnetic, and non-magnetic anomalies.

Idiots will mock, but for those of you with interest, this will give you a start in the direction of learning for your self. Good Luck!

Skeptics, don't bother trying to waste my time with idiotic questions. I won't be replying. Dell

[Qiaozhi]

Sorry JP, I don't have the time for all the stupid questions and remarks that follow.
One would wonder then why you bother to post here at all.

You folks have made it quite clear for years that you are not interested in my 40 years of Treasure Hunting field experience, which encompasses field comparisons with most Treasure Hunting & recovery technologies.
It's a pity that you are unable to learn, from the innumerable amount of criticism you receive, whenever you try to impart your so-called "40 years of Treasure Hunting field experience" to a wider audience. It is not only here on the Geotech website that you try to push your own brand of pseudo-science, but also on other sites, where your comments are less than welcome. This must be one of the few sites where you have not yet been banned. No wonder you still come here for the occasional kicking.

I now relegate a small amount of time to viewing this forum, and an occasional comment, and shaking my head and smiling in disbelief at the Skeptic's intellect on this forum.
Believe me ... there's even more head shaking happening in the skeptics' arena.

I've watched in disbelief for several years as you folks have fumbled thru concepts and far out theory's to try to figure out how Frequency Discrimination, LRL's or Dowsing works, only to conclude that it doesn't, and those that are doing what you say can't be done, are liars, frauds, and scam artists. That's not a mentality I can respect.
You give your MFD "technology" far too much credit. There is little to no figuring out required. The whole idea is just complete crap, and not worth the hot glue that's used in the construction of these worthless devices.

So no thanks, to your request for me to elaborate. I will say, I use the KISS method, and my most recent blind comparison tests, between a magnetometer, and a pair of Dowsing Rods, demonstrated there is a definite correlation between the magnetic "strength of field" of the earth, and the reaction of a pair of Copper, hand held, Dowsing Rods, to the SOF of buried magnetic, and non-magnetic anomalies.
I guess by blind you mean that you conducted the tests with your eyes shut, as you clearly have no idea what double-blind testing entails.

Idiots will mock, but for those of you with interest, this will give you a start in the direction of learning for your self. Good Luck!
Substitute "those of you with interest" for "gullible suckers with soon-to-be empty wallets" and it starts to make more sense. The only true part of your rant is that the "suckers" will definitely be buying an education.

Skeptics, don't bother trying to waste my time with idiotic questions. I won't be replying. Dell
OK - I won't ask any then, as you seem incapable of answering anyway.
But you might do JP the courtesy of answering the ones he's posted.

:) "WHAT DOESN'T WORK, CANNOT BE MADE TO WORK." :)

[J_Player]

You folks have made it quite clear for years that you are not interested in my 40 years of Treasure Hunting field experience, which encompasses field comparisons with most Treasure Hunting & recovery technologies.Hi Dell,
Actually I tried to make it quite clear that I am interested in your Treasure Hunting field experience. This is why I asked questions about it (see below).

Can you tell us the facts about the hundreds of double blind tests you conducted?
To start with, let's focus on a single one of the tests you conducted.

Pick out any one of your hundreds of double blind you want to use for an example:
1. Where was the test conducted?
2. Who was the proctor?
3. What was the protocal of this double blind dowsing test?
4. What was the object of the double blind test? A gold item? a silver item? something else?
5. Was the operator aware of any results before the test was fully completed?
6. What were the results?

Best wishes,
J_P

[Geo]

When
And of course, can be detect by an electronic LRL via secondary effect, maybe a kind of "electric cloud", because when you remove the target, the site "breath". But I think also some gas trapped can produce it.

Regards


Hi Esteban. As with my lrl, where when i moved the gold coin, it located the old and the new position for 5...10 minutes. My coins was not inside the ground, so it was not a gas trapped that can produced it.
Regards

[J_Player]

I've conducted hundreds more DB tests on the use of the Rods than you have, that positively proves okantex, estaban, geo, know much more about earth Science than you can possibly imagine.

You are wallowing in your own egotistical stupidity.

Originally posted by J_Player
Can you tell us the facts about the hundreds of double blind tests you conducted?
To start with, let's focus on a single one of the tests you conducted.

Pick out any one of your hundreds of double blind you want to use for an example:
1. Where was the test conducted?
2. Who was the proctor?
3. What was the protocal of this double blind dowsing test?
4. What was the object of the double blind test? A gold item? a silver item? something else?
5. Was the operator aware of any results before the test was fully completed?
6. What were the results?


Originally posted by Dell Winders
...Skeptics, don't bother trying to waste my time with idiotic questions.
Is it an idiotic question? Aren't readers of this forum interested in reading the details of a double blind test that proves dowsing works once and for all?

We have Dell's word that he conducted hundreds of double blind tests on the use of dowsing rods. But when asked to tell us some details of his double blind tests, he says I am wasting his time with idiotic questions.

It seems to me that skeptics, dowsers and the undecided would like to see the details of Dell's hundreds of double blind tests, so they can know once and for all that it works, or it doesn't. Since Dell never lies, we can be assured that Dell did not cheat on the double blind testing methods or results that were determined by the proctor. Yet he refuses to give any information about the double blind tests he conducted.

How can Dell tell people "You are wallowing in your own egotistical stupidity" when he refuses to post his double blind test details so all of us can read the results that were determined by the proctor? The double blind test results would verify the whether there was some egotistical stupidity or not.

Is it possible that Dell did lie?
Is it possible that Dell never conducted any double blind tests?


Best wishes,
J_P

[Qiaozhi]

Is it an idiotic question? Aren't readers of this forum interested in reading the details of a double blind test that proves dowsing works once and for all?

We have Dell's word that he conducted hundreds of double blind tests on the use of dowsing rods. But when asked to tell us some details of his double blind tests, he says I am wasting his time with idiotic questions.

It seems to me that skeptics, dowsers and the undecided would like to see the details of Dell's hundreds of double blind tests, so they can know once and for all that it works, or it doesn't. Since Dell never lies, we can be assured that Dell did not cheat on the double blind testing methods or results that were determined by the proctor. Yet he refuses to give any information about the double blind tests he conducted.

How can Dell tell people "You are wallowing in your own egotistical stupidity" when he refuses to post his double blind test details so all of us can read the results that were determined by the proctor? The double blind test results would verify the whether there was some egotistical stupidity or not.

Is it possible that Dell did lie?
Is it possible that Dell never conducted any double blind tests?


Best wishes,
J_P
Are you sure these questions are not rhetorical?

Dell has no intention of answering any of these, simply because he cannot give a sensible response that doesn't involve name calling.

[J_Player]

Are you sure these questions are not rhetorical?

Dell has no intention of answering any of these, simply because he cannot give a sensible response that doesn't involve name calling.Oh.

I thought Dell has no intention of answering any of these because maybe he lied about conducting over 100 double blind tests on dowsing rods.

Best wishes,
J_P

[J_Player]

.

[Fred]

I was not skeptic some time ago, and could have bought one of his devices if he had answered simples questions or showed some evidence that they work.But he never answered and gave me the feeling i should not make questions, just blindly believe some incredible stuff.
So maybe i am not stupid enought, but as there is no proof at all that this stuff is real my conclusion is that is is scam.

[Jim]

Sorry JP, I don't have the time for all the stupid questions and remarks that follow.

You folks have made it quite clear for years that you are not interested in my 40 years of Treasure Hunting field experience, which encompasses field comparisons with most Treasure Hunting & recovery technologies.

I now relegate a small amount of time to viewing this forum, and an occasional comment, and shaking my head and smiling in disbelief at the Skeptic's intellect on this forum.

I do appreciate the time and effort it takes for you to collect and put together internet searches into an interesting single category. Thank you for that.

I've watched in disbelief for several years as you folks have fumbled thru concepts and far out theory's to try to figure out how Frequency Discrimination, LRL's or Dowsing works, only to conclude that it doesn't, and those that are doing what you say can't be done, are liars, frauds, and scam artists. That's not a mentality I can respect.

So no thanks, to your request for me to elaborate. I will say, I use the KISS method, and my most recent blind comparison tests, between a magnetometer, and a pair of Dowsing Rods, demonstrated there is a definite correlation between the magnetic "strength of field" of the earth, and the reaction of a pair of Copper, hand held, Dowsing Rods, to the SOF of buried magnetic, and non-magnetic anomalies.

Idiots will mock, but for those of you with interest, this will give you a start in the direction of learning for your self. Good Luck!

Skeptics, don't bother trying to waste my time with idiotic questions. I won't be replying. Dell

Its the one-step...two-step...sidestep show!

Now, watch as some idiot mocks this post! :lol:

[Theseus]

I was not skeptic some time ago, and could have bought one of his devices if he had answered simples questions or showed some evidence that they work.But he never answered and gave me the feeling i should not make questions, just blindly believe some incredible stuff.
So maybe i am not stupid enought, but as there is no proof at all that this stuff is real my conclusion is that is is scam.

Precisely!! I started out the same way, as an open-minded skeptic determined to learn the truth of the matter. I know of no other way to learn the truth except by asking questions of those alleging to know more than myself about a particular subject. Now, many years later - I DO KNOW THE TRUTH! (Of course it did not take me "years" to learn the truth; it happened in about 3 short months.) I would have to give 90% of the credit, for me learning the truth, to none other than Dell Winders. It was his immediate and constant, name-calling, side-stepping of simple questions, and finally his outright lies and BS rhetoric that convinced me his (and other LRL scammers) were selling total snake oil, without a hint of validation from the rational world of science and physics.

Thanks to Dell, for his aid in helping me to learn the truth about him and others just like him. They prey on the gullible and technically-challenged, in an effort to rob some poor fellow out of his ready cash in return for a do-nothing over-priced dowsing contraption that has the same ability to find treasure as throwing lawn darts and random digging.

[Qiaozhi]

Oh.

I thought Dell has no intention of answering any of these because maybe he lied about conducting over 100 double blind tests on dowsing rods.

Best wishes,
J_P
Well there is that small point to consider as well. :rolleyes:

We know that the DB tests he did with Randi were a dismal failure, and produced results no better than guessing, so the other 100s of tests must either be of the "eyes shut" variety, or were the product of an overactive imagination.

Perhaps "double blind" to Dell means having both eyes shut. :lol:

[Esteban]

Hi Esteban. As with my lrl, where when i moved the gold coin, it located the old and the new position for 5...10 minutes. My coins was not inside the ground, so it was not a gas trapped that can produced it.
Regards

Maybe deppend of the device you use.

[J_Player]

I was not skeptic some time ago, and could have bought one of his devices if he had answered simples questions or showed some evidence that they work.But he never answered and gave me the feeling i should not make questions, just blindly believe some incredible stuff. So maybe i am not stupid enought, but as there is no proof at all that this stuff is real my conclusion is that is is scam.

Originally posted by Theseus:
Precisely!! I started out the same way, as an open-minded skeptic determined to learn the truth of the matter. I know of no other way to learn the truth except by asking questions of those alleging to know more than myself about a particular subjectHmmmm....
I also was not skeptical before listening to Dell Winders.
It is beginning to look like Dell created his own skeptics. I wonder how many people come into this forum to ask Dell a question, only to find that Dell will not answer it, and will call them and egotistical idiotic skeptic from Carl's skeptic cult if they don't blindly believe whatever Dell tells them?

Could it be that Dell has created all these skeptics for his own purposes?
But why would Dell want to create skeptics from people who have not yet formed an opinion?

One answer that comes to mind is because he needs a reason to explain his LRL business failure. How can he explain this unless he has someone to point his finger at? It couldn't be Dell's own failure to convince people his gizmoes work that caused him to fail in the LRL business... therefore it must be somebody else who caused people to not buy his junk. So Dell created a new term to explain the mystery of his LRL business failure: "Carl's skeptic cult"

There is only one problem with Dell's explanation....
I am not part of any skeptic cult run by Carl or anyone else. I have never been skeptical about metal ions in the ground where long time buried metals are buried. In fact, I was one of the first people to give a real argument against Carl's notion that long time buried gold is the same as freshly buried gold. I also do not agree with people who think that there is no plausible method to detect long time buried gold from a greater distance than a conventional metal detector can find it.

The cult does not exist.
It is simply a word that was invented by Dell Winders to label anyone who will not blindly believe whatever he says.
It is part of "hillbilly logic" that Dell has adopted:

1. It helps me to sell Omnitron LRLs = Good, rational logic
2. It does not help me to sell Omnitron LRLs = Bad, irrational logic
3. People who will not believe me are skeptics from Carl's skeptic cult

So how did I come to considered part of "Carl's skeptic cult"? How did anyone become part of this cult?
I would speculate that there are more forum members than Fred and me who were not skeptical about what Dell says until after we heard what he said, and learned he was not willing to back up anything he says. He won't even back up his alleged double blind tests he says he performed to prove the rods work. Yet people who do not blindly believe whatever Dell says gets thrown into the skeptic cult, and are the branded as the people who caused Dell's LRL business failure.

I guess they are in Dell's mind.
After all, none of them bought an LRL from Dell, did they?

Best wishes,
J_P

[Max]

Well there is that small point to consider as well. :rolleyes:

We know that the DB tests he did with Randi were a dismal failure, and produced results no better than guessing, so the other 100s of tests must either be of the "eyes shut" variety, or were the product of an overactive imagination.

Perhaps "double blind" to Dell means having both eyes shut. :lol:

So say that these double blind tests... were made a'la Kubrik...:D

Interesting that Dell like these kind of things...:rolleyes:

But I'm sure he will deny that... hope he found some drill instructor like this... when was (cause he was ? I guess... ) called by uncle Sam...

:lol: seems to me Dell was good for the gomer pyle role... :D

Kind regards,
Max

[Dell Winders]

Teaching dummies the difference in terminology and definition between a rifle, and a gun.

"This is my rifle, this is my gun.
My rifle is for fighting,
My gun is for fun."

Like teaching dummies the difference between Frequency Discrimination (physics) and Dowsing (meta-Physics) both applications can be metered with hand held Rod(s) Dell

[Max]

Teaching dummies the difference in terminology and definition between a rifle, and a gun.

"This is my rifle, this is my gun.
My rifle is for fighting,
My gun is for fun."

Like teaching dummies the difference between Frequency Discrimination (physics) and Dowsing (meta-Physics) both applications can be metered with hand held Rod(s) Dell

Is that you John Wayne ? :lol:

Sure Gomer... ops Dell... I see ... the instructor told you everything but you eventually failed at the practice ! :razz:

Kind regards,
Max

[Clondike Clad]

Teaching dummies the difference in terminology and definition between a rifle, and a gun.

"This is my rifle, this is my gun.
My rifle is for fighting,
My gun is for fun."

Like teaching dummies the difference between Frequency Discrimination (physics) and Dowsing (meta-Physics) both applications can be metered with hand held Rod(s) Dell
Dell you need to stop it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Name calling and junk that don't work.
PROVE THAT YOUR STUFF WORKS AND STOP IT WITH THE NAME CALLING.
WE ALL WANT TO LEARN THE GOOD THE BAD AND THE UGLY.:D

[Theseus]

Dell you need to stop it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Name calling and junk that don't work.
PROVE THAT YOUR STUFF WORKS AND STOP IT WITH THE NAME CALLING.
WE ALL WANT TO LEARN THE GOOD THE BAD AND THE UGLY.:D

I'm afraid we got everything from Dell that he is capable of communicating. He has no proof his scam junk works, so of course the only thing he can do is name-call, side-step the questions and issues, change the subject and run, run, run and hide. That's been his MO for a good many years, and as far as he's concerned it works pretty well for him.

In all actuality it is the only approach he can take now. He's stuck with it, because if he ever changed his tune and told the truth, he'd leave himself wide open for a Class Action Suit that could cost him many thousands of dollars. Probably not something he and Trudy are willing to risk at this moment.

Proof it works; he does not have. If he did, he would have offered it up 25 years ago. Also, he would be enjoying the good life with Randi's 1M$, instead of calling Randi a liar and a cheat, at every opportunity he gets.

So......... I'm afraid we got everything from Dell that he is going to provide. It's not a pretty picture; in fact it is extremely sad to think that one individual could waste an entire lifetime trying to take advantage of a few folks with some extra cash, a dream of finding treasure and a basic ignorance of grade-school science and physics.

Very Sad..... :frown:

[Max]

Dell you need to stop it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Name calling and junk that don't work.
PROVE THAT YOUR STUFF WORKS AND STOP IT WITH THE NAME CALLING.
WE ALL WANT TO LEARN THE GOOD THE BAD AND THE UGLY.:D

Hi,
well... yes... but...

Asking Dell to prove his stuff work is about like demonstrate that an elephant defecate diamonds or regular schedule.. seems really unlikely he will give proofs of that! :D

Or do you belive in the power of hi-pressure and buttocks combined ?:lol:

Kind regards,
Max

[ivconic]

Spitting arena - that's what it is! :D
Hey Carl! Do the "magic move"! :lol:

Dell take it easy. All others too. It supposed to go on jocular level. Even if such huge variance is present here, does not mean oposite sides supposed to act as enemies. Name calling is last thing we need here as well as bad emotions upon each others.
Imagine that once you gonna meet somewhere a member of oposide side. What is better; to shake hands and join for a beer or two (dozen of course) or to cross fists and "dish" each other instead?:p
If i choose - dozen boxes of beer is only solution! (on Dell's "lrl" account of course! :D)

[Max]

Spitting arena - that's what it is! :D
Hey Carl! Do the "magic move"! :lol:

Dell take it easy. All others too. It supposed to go on jocular level. Even if such huge variance is present here, does not mean oposite sides supposed to act as enemies. Name calling is last thing we need here as well as bad emotions upon each others.
Imagine that once you gonna meet somewhere a member of oposide side. What is better; to shake hands and join for a beer or two (dozen of course) or to cross fists and "dish" each other instead?:p
If i choose - dozen boxes of beer is only solution! (on Dell's "lrl" account of course! :D)


Yes... spitting arena... but spits are full of tobacco, like in good old movies...:lol:

BTW... people ask Dell but he's evasive about his "technology"... then the spitting game start, no way! :rolleyes:

Beers... always good dozen of beers... if on Dell's account even better! :cheers:

Bad guys all here in Remote Sensing... it's kind of Texas hold'em between spektics and LRL-belivers-pretenders... sure... and each raise... is by a new spit! :lol:

I think that Dell doesn't fold cause of his victimism-role-play here...;)

Or do you read Dell's poker-face different ?

Kind regards,
Max

[ivconic]

Long time ago i understood that am not able to understand those lrl theories and claims. Ok..i can read and try to understand. I can build some device and perform serie of tests and experiments. And i done...many times. Sorry, but as i stated earlier; none of those ever worked in my hands or in front of my eyes. So...i was unsuccessfull 100% on that field. Pitty. That's why i consider myself rather "sceptic" than "beleiver".
By this i dont mean to deny somebody's else experiences. Who knows? Maybe i live in region where those devices not working at all? Maybe something is much different in soil? Who knows?
But i will always be ready to listen and read others experiences. Ok... Dell really offered so few real infos on this subject so far. As others too. I still think that success in lrl'ing is more related to human than to apparatus.
That's why those apparatuses looks bogus. Works nothing. Usually few components wired in a trivial manner and mostly no electronics inside but empty boxes. As well as rods and simillar stuff.
Ain't no other explanation for rods to functioning than by ideomotoric (was that the term??) response.
By this i dont mean nothing bad. I understand ideomotoric response like connection with lost human senses, deeply burried in our minds and stunded due long period of evolution and progress in which human substituted constantly own natural powers with mechanical apparatuses. Also modern way of living do repress our senses more and more. The way todays youth listen the music leads to situation that in future human will loose more than 50% of todays audition abillities. So than most of population will be "deaf" for our present standards.
So...i presume it is the same situation with lrl phenomenna. I presume that back ....for example 3000 years in the past man could perceived shallow underground water deposits by own senses, same as today he can see or hear something. But today man can not. Why? That sense is stunded due many reasons.
I have seen some tv documentary about african apes. They can "feel" shallow underground water, there in desert. And using that sense they do survive rough conditions there.
Man does not need simillar sense for long time ago.
See my point?
So..those senses are stunded but those are still present here in man's genes, locked and forgoten.
So maybe is possible to "awake" some of those senses from time to time and use it. Usually that can not be done by demand or by plain wish. Usually man need certain conditions...and most possibly some apparatus.
Also same man need to have certain practice and discipline.
So..it is possible that ocassionall lrl revelations can be explained using this approach - sudden "awakeness" of some stunded sense.
But this usually leads to pseudo science and charlatanism.
Official science didnt explored this much (at least in public), therefore we dont have nothing to rely on....only assumptions.

[J_Player]

Ain't no other explanation for rods to functioning than by ideomotoric (was that the term??) response.There have been a number of other explanations for the movement of dowsing rods which you can read in the remote sensing forums. None of the explanations posted seem suitable for testing unless you are using a double blind test to see if the dowser is able to consistently find a hidden item. But this does not test the theory or explanation. It only tests the suitability of using dowsing to locate an item. The most prominent theory of how dowsing works is "ideamotor response", which by scientific standards would reduce dowsing to the same success rate as guessing. ie: an idea (whether conscious or subliminal) from the brain of the dowser results in a twitch of the muscles which causes the rods to move. This idea is thought to be of the same quality as an idea which causes the hands to move when using a ouija board.

My opinion is that "ideamotor response" is not responsible for any dowsing that results in a higher than chance rate of locating a target.
If we separate dowsing into 3 categories to describe the results, we might find this:

1. Dowsing done by a person who gets responses that result in finding the correct location of the target significantly more times than chance guessing.
2. Dowsing done by a person who gets responses that do not result in finding the correct location of the target
3. Dowsing done by a person who gets no response at all from the rods.

I would suspect "ideamotor response" is responsible for unsuccessful dowsing that is done by most people in category 2, who find the wrong location of the target. Category 3 dowsers who get no dowsing response cannot be ascribed to ideamotor or anything else, because there was no response. But what about people who have better than chance guessing success? Sometimes their data can be shown to be false by looking closely at the data gathered. How many unsuccessful attempts were counted along with the successful when calculating the success rate, etc. After removing any skewed results, if you still have evidence of results better than chance guessing, you are focused on dowsing that is considered successful, and may be worth investigating.

Some explanations of how dowsing works have not been advanced in the remote sensing forum, and are indeed linked to the senses and physiology of the human body. Tests have been performed which seem to indicate there are sensory parts of the body that work independently or in conjunction with other senses to determine something has changed in the location where the dowser has walked over. These tests seem to support the notion that people have become less aware of their senses in modern times. They also seem to point to the direction that the ability to dowse may be dependent on inherited genetic abilities that some people have.

We see in modern times people have become less aware of their senses. But still today, there are Australian aboriginies who can find water in the desert where people from the cities cannot. We have people who live in Central and South America living off the land, who can find many things in the jungles that people from the city cannot find. These people are sometimes hired as guides to show the way for people who do not have the same abilities to hear their senses. Is it a genetic gift or something that comes with practice?

The same question applies to the ability to successfully dowse. Until people bother to research the dated materials where these tests and others were performed, I doubt there will be much new information other than "ideamotor response" and a few unsupported incredible explanations in this forum for how dowsing works.

But one thing that has been proven....
There is no person on earth willing to demonstrate dowsing working consistently in a credible live test for all who want to see.

Best wishes,
J_P

[Dell Winders]

With regard to Map, Photo, & Information (mental) Dowsing, I see your opinion is not based on any experience, or research. and therefore imaginary, and useless.


From TNET.

Yes, "Physical Dowsing", and "Mental Dowsing", are indeed terms I made up when I was conducting tests on some 5,000 friends, and volunteers, over the course of 30 years. I used the information to determine if MFD & LRL users Rod(s) and devices were reacting naturally to applied physics, or if the subjects, including myself, were forcing the Rod(s) to react with involuntary body muscle movements.

I used these terms merly to categorize the difference between those whose Rod(s) were reacting to an internal stimulus, ie; mind, muscle, ideomotor response without physics limitations, and those whose Rod(s) reacted to an external stimulus, ie; magnetic fields, with all the associated limitations of a physics application to an external stimulus.

Of the several thousand that I worked with and tested over that period of time, approximately 17% of Rod users tested were reacting to external stimulus, and experienced the associated limitations of the Rods reacting sometimes, and sometimes not, depending on the external operating conditions.

Myself, and others on this forum often use mechanical aids (physics applications) with our Rod(s), along with it's accepted limitations. For me, it's easier and faster to learn to use a mechanical discrimination tool than it is to learn to discriminate targets in the field using a mental Dowsing application.

But to each his own choice, and description. Dell

[J_Player]

I see your opinion is not based on any experience, or research.You are wrong Dell, It is based on experience and research.
But then I was not addressing map, photo & information (mental) dowsing, was I?
There have been a number of other explanations for the movement of dowsing rods...

Best wishes,
J_P

[Theseus]

If we separate dowsing into 3 categories to describe the results, we might find this:

1. Dowsing done by a person who gets responses that result in finding the correct location of the target significantly more times than chance guessing.
2. Dowsing done by a person who gets responses that do not result in finding the correct location of the target
3. Dowsing done by a person who gets no response at all from the rods.

I would suspect "ideamotor response" is responsible for unsuccessful dowsing that is done by most people in category 2, who find the wrong location of the target. Category 3 dowsers who get no dowsing response cannot be ascribed to ideamotor or anything else, because there was no response.

My experiments and experiences show that #3 can also be as a result of an ideomotor response. The response occurs, as in #2, but it results in a "blocked" motion rather than a visible motion. In either case, the mind is responsible for the result.

But one thing that has been proven....
There is no person on earth willing to demonstrate dowsing working consistently in a credible live test for all who want to see.

Best wishes,
J_PNo argument there. :)

[J_Player]

My experiments and experiences show that #3 can also be as a result of an ideomotor response. The response occurs, as in #2, but it results in a "blocked" motion rather than a visible motion. In either case, the mind is responsible for the resultHi Theseus,
You may be right about that. If so, it would mean that ideamoter response results in not finding the target other than by occasional chance occurrences where the percent of correct locations is the same as the percent correct locations found by a person simply guessing places to dig.

The important question is about category 1 -- dowsing done by a person who gets responses that result in finding the correct location of the target significantly more times than chance guessing. If this is happening, then it cannot be caused by simple "ideamotor response", but something else that gives the dowser an advantage over simple chance guessing.

The problems in the past may be partly in the definition of "ideamotor response", which some people assign different meanings than others. I have seen descriptions that included the entire nervous system, as well as spiritual things. For the purpose of this discussion, I am referring only to the physical brain that is located in the upper portion of the cranium and the ideas that it generate, not the rest of the the attached nerves or out-of-body spirits or auras etc. The attached nerves and body parts are only concerned in the "motor response" part of "ideamotor response" in this discussion. Thus, if there is some influence on the rods derived from spirits, auras, or other parts of the body, I would consider this to be something other than pure "ideamotor response". But these other explanations of dowsing are some of the things that I have read posted in this forum and other sources to tell why dowsing rods move. These are the things we could investigate when we see a dowser who is mostly successful in finding targets with dowsing rods.

But then, before we can investigate whether any of these things are causing the dowser to find targets, we must first find a dowser who can find the correct location of the target significantly better than chance guessing.
If such a dowser does not exist, then maybe the explanations of how he does it do not exist either. :rolleyes:

Best wishes,
J_P

[Dell Winders]

True Dowsing is a Mental application, such as Map, Photo, and Information. Meta-Physics, psychic output from the sub-conscious, via a trained (programmed) mind/muscle ideomoter response. It's triggered by an internal stimulus.

When the Rod(s) are used in a field search application, too often physics come into play. External stimulus such as Magnetics, and possibly other factors (physics) appear to have an effect on hand held Dowsing Rod(s), as well as wind, weather, rough terrain, etc, when physically searching for the emanating "field" of chemical elements.

MFD, HID, LRL, and most directional locators are used in a physics application, Not a mental Dowsing application, as some here seem to insist. In fact, most of these configurations would be difficult, and impractical tools to use for mental Dowsing.

I use a needle & thread and it's a great tool for Dowsing, but not so good for a physics application, unless of course, you use it to sew, or remove a splinter.

Certainly, there are those who don't know the distinction, who will unwittingly try to intertwine dowsing with physics. This can be confusing and cause inaccuracies for the inexperienced. The correct interpretation of the reaction of the Rod(s) is different in a mental dowsing application, than it is in a physics application.

The term "Dowsing", when associated with a physics application of the hand held rod(s) is an inaccurate misnomer. It is often mis-labeled Dowsing, when the definition is taken out of context. One terminology does not fit both.

O.K. you seem to correctly be making a distinction by not including Map, Photo, & and Information Dowsing in your categorization, so to avoid confusion among viewers I suggest leaving the term "Dowsing," and mind/muscle "ideomotor" response totally out of a discussion of physics, and their effects on Hand held L-Rod(s), lest Skeptics continue to demonstrate their ignorance of these subjects. Swallow your ego's,(don't choke) and decide to become serious about learning, and stop bashing & mocking those who do have at least some working knowledge and show them respect.

That's certainly a joke, that I will see egotists, and pretend scientist posting on Carl Morland's forum who are open minded to learning from a 6th grader? To me, It's a sad commentary for the skeptic mentality, but even if I live to be 100. I won't live long enough to see that happen. :shrug: Dell

So, Continue what you know best. CUE: Mocking and bashing, please!

[J_Player]

to avoid confusion among viewers I suggest leaving the term "Dowsing," and mind/muscle "ideomotor" response totally out of a discussion of physics, and their effects on Hand held L-Rod(s), lest Skeptics continue to demonstrate their ignorance of these subjects. Swallow your ego's,(don't choke) and decide to become serious about learning, and stop bashing & mocking those who do have at least some working knowledge and show them respect.

That's certainly a joke, that I will see egotists, and pretend scientist posting on Carl Morland's forum who are open minded to learning from a 6th gradeHmmmm... Who are you to lay claim to knowledge about dowsing? :nono:

Aren't you another self-proclaimed dowser who refuses to demonstrate dowsing that works to recover targets in front of live witnesses?
I read your previous posts where you assure us you have performed hundreds of double blind tests of dowsing. Yet you refuse to give any information about the details of those tests. Then you call people names instead of presenting the test results from the DB test proctor. Why should we have respect for that?

We read posts from a person who cannot demonstrate dowsing working to recover targets, and cannot substantiate hundreds of alleged double blind dowsing tests performed. Your only test I read about is where you failed to find the treasure. All other references to your testing showed that you refused to allow testing of your methods. Then you expect us all to believe whatever you say with nothing to back up your claims. Isn't that an egotistical expectation?
We must blindly believe all you say, or else you will brand us to be part of the "skeptic cult" and call us names?

Perhaps if you want some respect, you should earn it by backing up your claims.
Why not start by substantiating the double blind tests on dowsing you claim you performed:
Can you tell us the facts about the hundreds of double blind tests you conducted?
To start with, let's focus on a single one of the tests you conducted.

Pick out any one of your hundreds of double blind you want to use for an example:
1. Where was the test conducted?
2. Who was the proctor?
3. What was the protocal of this double blind dowsing test?
4. What was the object of the double blind test? A gold item? a silver item? something else?
5. Was the operator aware of any results before the test was fully completed?
6. What were the results?

Best wishes,
J_P

[ivconic]

"...Ain't no other explanation .." ivconic
"...There have been a number of other explanations..." J Player

Yes you are right, i made logical mistake there. I ment to say " Ain't no other acceptable (to me) explanation.."
Also i do support your division on 3 categories. Most of cases i've been seen were 2. category.The rest of your post is compatible to just what i wanted to say also, but couldn't elaborate that good due my poor managing in English language..

[ivconic]

Map, Photo, & Information (mental) Dowsing is something much different.
I really can not accept an understand that phenomenna. But i saw several people claim abillity for such thing. Yet never saw any success made using that method.
It is equal to fortune teller type of predictions. No mockery here, just personal opinion.
But...trust me; i really do have an open mind for listening details about this.
Really would like to hear detailed explanations about whole process of map,photo&information dowsing. Step by step. It is very interesting (despite my own attitude upon that) and would be usefull to have such text here once for all. Cose otherwise we can continue to make assumptions and most probably to continue with mockery and jokes on that subject.
Explanation must be done by someone conversant in that stuff.

[ivconic]

Reffering Map, Photo, & Information (mental) Dowsing ...
We can make a test here. First we need person who claims to be able to to that. Than someone of us may give location and map...and some photo here where we can not exactly see subject of dowsing. But those informations must be closely related to that subject. And dowser will examine posted datas and say here some more details about subject of dowsing. Than we will see results. Is there any truth or not. For example, i have photos and maps of few suspectable places...

[J_Player]

I ment to say " Ain't no other acceptable (to me) explanation.."Hi Ivconic,
Suppose you were to discover that there is more than one explanation to suggest that the human body has sensory organs that can sense the location of buried objects? Suppose there were tests conducted that showed information to suggest the exact location of these sensory organs, and ways to shield them so they would stop responding? Would that be an acceptable (to you) explanation that would be worth the trouble of further investigation?

Best wishes,
J_P

[J_Player]

Map, Photo, & Information (mental) Dowsing is something much different.Hi Ivconic,
Yes, you are right. This is something much different.
This thread began as Qiaozhi's discussion of the "phenomenon" which some of us call "halo", and its relationship to the "DNA of gold" and a substance it produces to protect gold from oxidation. It is about the physical properties of gold that has been buried for a long time and the ground around it. Not about dowsing techniques. But since Dell Winders appeared, the posts drifted off to dowsing techniques and name calling.

Maybe it is a good time to start a new thread that focuses on dowsing techniques and explanations to learn the interesting information for people who want to discover answers about dowsing. I will be watching closely to see the results of your photo-map dowsing test.


Best wishes,
J_P

[Fred]

Map, Photo, & Information (mental) Dowsing is something much different.I really can not accept an understand that phenomenna.
We have to remember that all the stories we see on TV etc are success stories.
I have never seen a story of unsuccesfull dowser.Why?
And please don´t tell me it is because they are always succesfull :rolleyes:

Qiaozhi: "this is how selective memory works" :lol:

[Theseus]

Hi Theseus,
You may be right about that. If so, it would mean that ideamoter response results in not finding the target other than by occasional chance occurrences where the percent of correct locations is the same as the percent correct locations found by a person simply guessing places to dig.

The important question is about category 1 -- dowsing done by a person who gets responses that result in finding the correct location of the target significantly more times than chance guessing. If this is happening, then it cannot be caused by simple "ideamotor response", but something else that gives the dowser an advantage over simple chance guessing.

<<< other parts snipped >>>
Best wishes,
J_P

Let's, for the sake of this discussion, say there really is a Category 1 (even though we can't seem to find any hard evidence of it). From my experiences, I could not say that an "ideomotor response" was not involved (in all categories).

However, in order for Category 1 to actually exist, we have to look beyond the physical "ideomotor response" (that caused the indication) and consider what TRIGGERED that response in the first place.

There is a TRIGGER involved before ANY ideomotor response can occur, no matter what Category of result you are speaking. Also, this TRIGGER may come from the Conscious or the Unconscious areas of the mind. When they come from the Conscious Mind, they are as a result of Wishful Thinking, and will result in pure Chance Guessing outcomes. When the TRIGGER comes from the Unconscious area, it is unknown whether a genuine external stimulus caused the trigger, or it was caused by "deep-seated" notions and beliefs from within the dowser. Hence, the resultant outcome may also be on a par with Chance Guessing. Though if the TRIGGER came from "accurate" external stimuli, then the result would be accurate as well.

Of course there is one other facet of the TRIGGER, before the ideomotor response. That is, there is no way the operator can tell from which source the TRIGGER came. No way! There are dowsers who claim they can tell, but they are sadly mistaken. That is also why there is no such thing as Mental and Physical dowsing. Those terms were invented by a scam artist wallet-miner to feather his nest with capital gains from the gullible and technically-challenged.

Still, as you say, the fact remains - if there are any Category 1 individuals, to this date, none have been able to demonstrate their talent. And, I'm not expecting any to come forward anytime soon with a valid demonstration. JMHO... :)

[Qiaozhi]

With regard to Map, Photo, & Information (mental) Dowsing, I see your opinion is not based on any experience, or research. and therefore imaginary, and useless.


From TNET.
Just like map, photo and mental dowsing then. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Max]

True Dowsing is a Mental application, such as Map, Photo, and Information. Meta-Physics, psychic output from the sub-conscious, via a trained (programmed) mind/muscle ideomoter response. It's triggered by an internal stimulus.

When the Rod(s) are used in a field search application, too often physics come into play. External stimulus such as Magnetics, and possibly other factors (physics) appear to have an effect on hand held Dowsing Rod(s), as well as wind, weather, rough terrain, etc, when physically searching for the emanating "field" of chemical elements.

MFD, HID, LRL, and most directional locators are used in a physics application, Not a mental Dowsing application, as some here seem to insist. In fact, most of these configurations would be difficult, and impractical tools to use for mental Dowsing.

I use a needle & thread and it's a great tool for Dowsing, but not so good for a physics application, unless of course, you use it to sew, or remove a splinter.

Certainly, there are those who don't know the distinction, who will unwittingly try to intertwine dowsing with physics. This can be confusing and cause inaccuracies for the inexperienced. The correct interpretation of the reaction of the Rod(s) is different in a mental dowsing application, than it is in a physics application.

The term "Dowsing", when associated with a physics application of the hand held rod(s) is an inaccurate misnomer. It is often mis-labeled Dowsing, when the definition is taken out of context. One terminology does not fit both.

O.K. you seem to correctly be making a distinction by not including Map, Photo, & and Information Dowsing in your categorization, so to avoid confusion among viewers I suggest leaving the term "Dowsing," and mind/muscle "ideomotor" response totally out of a discussion of physics, and their effects on Hand held L-Rod(s), lest Skeptics continue to demonstrate their ignorance of these subjects. Swallow your ego's,(don't choke) and decide to become serious about learning, and stop bashing & mocking those who do have at least some working knowledge and show them respect.

That's certainly a joke, that I will see egotists, and pretend scientist posting on Carl Morland's forum who are open minded to learning from a 6th grader? To me, It's a sad commentary for the skeptic mentality, but even if I live to be 100. I won't live long enough to see that happen. :shrug: Dell

So, Continue what you know best. CUE: Mocking and bashing, please!

Think I understand your internal stimulus for ideomotor response... I think you're triggered during bathromm sessions...:lol:

When you create the diamonds by that stilmulus...I mean...:rolleyes:, remember hi-pressure... hi-temperature and perseverance could make the miracle!:D

Kind regards,
Max

[ivconic]

Just like map, photo and mental dowsing then. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Mental dowsing or not...but, Qiaozhi right now i can "see" some cash money in your pockets...from here! I used your last post to concentrate!
It is misty....but i also "see" you are sitting and typing something ...and YES you have Linux installed on your pc - that's what i am sure about!

Ha,ha,ha! This is not valid example. I made it just for fun and to illustrate what we should not accept here as example if somebody offers here to perform demonstration of mental dowsing...

[Max]

True Dowsing is a Mental application, such as Map, Photo, and Information. Meta-Physics, psychic output from the sub-conscious, via a trained (programmed) mind/muscle ideomoter response. It's triggered by an internal stimulus.

When the Rod(s) are used in a field search application, too often physics come into play. External stimulus such as Magnetics, and possibly other factors (physics) appear to have an effect on hand held Dowsing Rod(s), as well as wind, weather, rough terrain, etc, when physically searching for the emanating "field" of chemical elements.

MFD, HID, LRL, and most directional locators are used in a physics application, Not a mental Dowsing application, as some here seem to insist. In fact, most of these configurations would be difficult, and impractical tools to use for mental Dowsing.

I use a needle & thread and it's a great tool for Dowsing, but not so good for a physics application, unless of course, you use it to sew, or remove a splinter.

Certainly, there are those who don't know the distinction, who will unwittingly try to intertwine dowsing with physics. This can be confusing and cause inaccuracies for the inexperienced. The correct interpretation of the reaction of the Rod(s) is different in a mental dowsing application, than it is in a physics application.

The term "Dowsing", when associated with a physics application of the hand held rod(s) is an inaccurate misnomer. It is often mis-labeled Dowsing, when the definition is taken out of context. One terminology does not fit both.

O.K. you seem to correctly be making a distinction by not including Map, Photo, & and Information Dowsing in your categorization, so to avoid confusion among viewers I suggest leaving the term "Dowsing," and mind/muscle "ideomotor" response totally out of a discussion of physics, and their effects on Hand held L-Rod(s), lest Skeptics continue to demonstrate their ignorance of these subjects. Swallow your ego's,(don't choke) and decide to become serious about learning, and stop bashing & mocking those who do have at least some working knowledge and show them respect.

That's certainly a joke, that I will see egotists, and pretend scientist posting on Carl Morland's forum who are open minded to learning from a 6th grader? To me, It's a sad commentary for the skeptic mentality, but even if I live to be 100. I won't live long enough to see that happen. :shrug: Dell

So, Continue what you know best. CUE: Mocking and bashing, please!

So Dell...
I suppose this girl wanna dowse for treasure... mental dowsing of course...
isn't that the preferred start position ?:lol:

Or must buy a paint roller handle first ?:razz:

Kind regards,
Max

[Fred]

So Dell...
I suppose this girl wanna dowse for treasure... mental dowsing of course...
Max
Don´t dowse any more, girl , you have found your treasure! i´m here!

[J_Player]

Of course there is one other facet of the TRIGGER, before the ideomotor response. That is, there is no way the operator can tell from which source the TRIGGER came. No way!Hi Theseus,
You have applied your concept of a trigger to "ideamotor response". I presume this means the dowser is holding rods without making any kinds of thoughts that involve deciding things or arriving at conclusions. He is only allowing responses to happen when some "trigger mechanism" compels his hands to respond.

This could work for any of the senses. ie: a person driving, while not thinking about anything in particular has a sudden response to slow down. He then realizes he has spotted a black and white car with lights flashing on top of it (before he had any conscious thoughts about it, he responded). This principle also works when you get too close to a fire, or sit on a needle that you can feel, etc.

Other times, we use our senses while making conscious thoughts and decisions. ie: you are lost, so you look for landmarks, where do you see the sun in the sky, street signs, etc. You think about the things you see, and process this data consciously and purposefully. Then you arrive at a conclusion of where to go.

With dowsing, either of these mechanisms could be used. In the case where you don't have a clue what you are doing, you may be using pure ideamotor guessing responses, and digging lots of empty holes. Or you may be processing information you read at the library, and on maps that give you some ideas about the treasure when you decide where to dowse at. Perhaps thinking and arriving at conclusions constitutes part of the "trigger" for this manner of dowsing.

But what about the possibility that there are more sensory mechanisms than the 5 common senses? Suppose a dowser has some sensory input that tells him to feel nervous and causes his arm muscles to twitch when he walks in certain locations. Suppose he also has a certain "recognizable feeling" that he has learned to associate with different kinds of anomalies he finds when he is dowsing. None of this has been confirmed, but it haas been reported by some dowsers. If it is true, then what about determining the source of this "sensory input"?

Consider the sense of hearing. You can tell the source of a sound fairly well, as well as a lot of other informatiion about the sound just by listening as you walk. Suppose these reports of another "sensory input" were also able to gain some clues to the source of the "trigger" in the same manner as hearing does, or perhaps vision, or smell? This would mean it is not a purely "ideamotor responsse", but a response that is more similar to a "sensory input response", as in Pavlov's dog.

Of course, this is all hypothetical wishful dream-thinking until a person is located that can accurately find things by dowsing better than chance guessing, and demonstrate for some testing to see if it is true or not.

Best wishes,
J_P

[Qiaozhi]

True Dowsing is a Mental application, such as Map, Photo, and Information. Meta-Physics, psychic output from the sub-conscious, via a trained (programmed) mind/muscle ideomoter response. It's triggered by an internal stimulus.
The reality is somewhat different. It's a convenient method of wallet-mining, without having to leave the comfort of your own home. :razz:

When the Rod(s) are used in a field search application, too often physics come into play. External stimulus such as Magnetics, and possibly other factors (physics) appear to have an effect on hand held Dowsing Rod(s), as well as wind, weather, rough terrain, etc, when physically searching for the emanating "field" of chemical elements.
The rods mostly move due to gravity, but occasionally wind and rain causes movement. :rolleyes:

MFD, HID, LRL, and most directional locators are used in a physics application, Not a mental Dowsing application, as some here seem to insist. In fact, most of these configurations would be difficult, and impractical tools to use for mental Dowsing.
Correction ... pseudo-scientific application. In other words, a well known mind trick explained using wish-science.

I use a needle & thread and it's a great tool for Dowsing, but not so good for a physics application, unless of course, you use it to sew, or remove a splinter.
Wallet mining from the kitchen table, or (if performed in the living room) "armchair dowsing".

Certainly, there are those who don't know the distinction, who will unwittingly try to intertwine dowsing with physics. This can be confusing and cause inaccuracies for the inexperienced. The correct interpretation of the reaction of the Rod(s) is different in a mental dowsing application, than it is in a physics application.
The only intertwining of dowsing with physics is via gravity. The rest is a fairyland interpretation.

The term "Dowsing", when associated with a physics application of the hand held rod(s) is an inaccurate misnomer. It is often mis-labeled Dowsing, when the definition is taken out of context. One terminology does not fit both.
No idea what that is supposed to mean. It's just meaningless gobbledygook.

O.K. you seem to correctly be making a distinction by not including Map, Photo, & and Information Dowsing in your categorization, so to avoid confusion among viewers I suggest leaving the term "Dowsing," and mind/muscle "ideomotor" response totally out of a discussion of physics, and their effects on Hand held L-Rod(s), lest Skeptics continue to demonstrate their ignorance of these subjects. Swallow your ego's,(don't choke) and decide to become serious about learning, and stop bashing & mocking those who do have at least some working knowledge and show them respect.
That would be a smart thing to do. But why would you want to change the habit of a lifetime?

That's certainly a joke, that I will see egotists, and pretend scientist posting on Carl Morland's forum who are open minded to learning from a 6th grader? To me, It's a sad commentary for the skeptic mentality, but even if I live to be 100. I won't live long enough to see that happen. :shrug: Dell
Now who's being egotistical?

So, Continue what you know best. CUE: Mocking and bashing, please!
It would be my pleasure. :lol:

:) "WHAT DOESN'T WORK, CANNOT BE MADE TO WORK." :)

[Qiaozhi]

The rest of your post is compatible to just what i wanted to say also, but couldn't elaborate that good due my poor managing in English language..
:lol: That's never stopped Dell. :lol:

At least you don't post nonsense. :thumb:

[Qiaozhi]

Mental dowsing or not...but, Qiaozhi right now i can "see" some cash money in your pockets...from here! I used your last post to concentrate!
It is misty....but i also "see" you are sitting and typing something ...and YES you have Linux installed on your pc - that's what i am sure about!

Ha,ha,ha! This is not valid example. I made it just for fun and to illustrate what we should not accept here as example if somebody offers here to perform demonstration of mental dowsing...

:lol: Yes .... I too am concentrating at my kitchen table, and ..... it's becoming clear ... you are using Windows without any anti-virus software. :lol:

This message will self-destruct in 10 seconds, leaving your disk infected with spam and spyware. 8)

[Theseus]

Hi Theseus,
You have applied your concept of a trigger to "ideamotor response". I presume this means the dowser is holding rods without making any kinds of thoughts that involve deciding things or arriving at conclusions. He is only allowing responses to happen when some "trigger mechanism" compels his hands to respond.

This could work for any of the senses. ie: a person driving, while not thinking about anything in particular has a sudden response to slow down. He then realizes he has spotted a black and white car with lights flashing on top of it (before he had any conscious thoughts about it, he responded). This principle also works when you get too close to a fire, or sit on a needle that you can feel, etc.

Other times, we use our senses while making conscious thoughts and decisions. ie: you are lost, so you look for landmarks, where do you see the sun in the sky, street signs, etc. You think about the things you see, and process this data consciously and purposefully. Then you arrive at a conclusion of where to go.

With dowsing, either of these mechanisms could be used. In the case where you don't have a clue what you are doing, you may be using pure ideamotor guessing responses, and digging lots of empty holes. Or you may be processing information you read at the library, and on maps that give you some ideas about the treasure when you decide where to dowse at. Perhaps thinking and arriving at conclusions constitutes part of the "trigger" for this manner of dowsing.

But what about the possibility that there are more sensory mechanisms than the 5 common senses? Suppose a dowser has some sensory input that tells him to feel nervous and causes his arm muscles to twitch when he walks in certain locations. Suppose he also has a certain "recognizable feeling" that he has learned to associate with different kinds of anomalies he finds when he is dowsing. None of this has been confirmed, but it haas been reported by some dowsers. If it is true, then what about determining the source of this "sensory input"?
Best wishes,
J_P

First, I am confused about your use of, or the spelling of the term we are discussing. You consistently talk about ideamotor response. Ideamotor apraxia is the inability to carry out a command from the brain to mimic limb or head movements performed or suggested by others. Conceptual apraxia is similar to ideamotor apraxia, but infers a more profound malfunctioning in which the function of tools or objects is no longer understood.

I am speaking about the trigger for an ideomotor response. Are we talking about the same thing?

I'll assume we are. Then, certainly, there could be some other sense, other than the five we know about. And, yes it could be the trigger for an ideomotor response that could accurately reflect the location of a sought after target. Hypothetically speaking, that could be a possibility to explain "accurate dowsing". However, no matter where the source of the trigger is located, (ie. sixth sense, etc.) the operator can never tell for sure the source of the trigger, which is all I'm contending.