some cosiderations

[FrancoItaly]

Hi All

- it's reasonable that ions or other signals they go 100 m. but not in the air, there is a better connection... the ground ! And so not a long range locator but a one meter locator or less it's necessary...

- as Esteban says many systems are good for the job, magnetic, electric, infrared...

- perhaps the circuit closing it's the body...

- Esteban's instruments and mineoro have a metallic handle ?

- transmitter coil is a sort of pump for a receiver coil ?

I'm studyng similar instruments but one problem it's gold targets buried for long time...

[J_Player]

Hi Franco,
Nice to see you back.

I'm studyng similar instruments but one problem it's gold targets buried for long time...

You will find many locations for testing instruments on gold buried for long time at the cemetery. But not good for making a recovery there.

Best Wishes,
J_P

[FrancoItaly]

Hi J PLAVER

very good idea but it's very difficult for verification !!!

[Max]

Hi J PLAVER

very good idea but it's very difficult for verification !!!

Hi Franco,
and what about old ruins of churchs ...related backyards etc ? I think you could find long time buried gold in similar places too, not only in cemeteries.

You could dig stuff without digging out bones... :shocked:

Best regards,
Max

[J_Player]

Hi Franco,
[quote=Franco]- it's reasonable that ions or other signals they go 100 m. but not in the air, there is a better connection... the ground ! And so not a long range locator but a one meter locator or less it's necessary...[quote]

I found a science website that agrees with your idea. They show how gold ions move in the ground and in the air too. When I study this science, I think it is maybe easier to find the ions after they reach the air, because no digging or ground probes necessary. The ions will collect in a convenient cloud and wait for you to find them 2 meters above the hidden treasure. Maybe you can build Ivconic's ion detector to find these ion clouds. See picture below showing ion cloud hovering above treasure from science website.

Best Wishes,
J_P

[Max]

Hi Franco,
[quote=Franco]- it's reasonable that ions or other signals they go 100 m. but not in the air, there is a better connection... the ground ! And so not a long range locator but a one meter locator or less it's necessary...[quote]

I found a science website that agrees with your idea. They show how gold ions move in the ground and in the air too. When I study this science, I think it is maybe easier to find the ions after they reach the air, because no digging or ground probes necessary. The ions will collect in a convenient cloud and wait for you to find them 2 meters above the hidden treasure. Maybe you can build Ivconic's ion detector to find these ion clouds. See picture below showing ion cloud hovering above treasure from science website.

Best Wishes,
J_P

Hi J_Player,
I have dubts on airborn ions migration from in soil solution. I think it is not possible have them in normal conditions and there must be some external condition(s) contribute on their creation...
E.g. a ligthening could maybe create a really small local amount of them from the matrix , if there are gold compounds inside matrix but their duration in free air could't be great and they would have a short life-span. Also in this case you would have much more stuff floating in the sorrounding air too.

I think that gold ionic detection in air is fake stuff cause nobody could trap gold ions (in any way) cause simply there aren't !

Is there some explaination of how they are supposed to be or how their migration from matrix is generated ?

Best regards,
Max

[J_Player]

Hi Max,
I have doubts too. What I learn in the university tells me only a small unmeasurable trace of gold ion might find its way into the soil if lots of water and maybe chlorine salts, but not likely in air - same idea as you say. But hey, science is science! You can argue politics, but when science comes, I try to pay attention. Maybe this website is for new scientific concepts. This website has lots of new scientific discovery from the past 50 years. Good place to learn new things. You can read more here: http://www.mineoro.com/goldDetectors/field01.php

Best wishes,
J_P

[Qiaozhi]

- it's reasonable that ions or other signals they go 100 m. but not in the air, there is a better connection... the ground ! And so not a long range locator but a one meter locator or less it's necessary...

;55841]Hi Franco, I found a science website that agrees with your idea. They show how gold ions move in the ground and in the air too. When I study this science, I think it is maybe easier to find the ions after they reach the air, because no digging or ground probes necessary. The ions will collect in a convenient cloud and wait for you to find them 2 meters above the hidden treasure. Maybe you can build Ivconic's ion detector to find these ion clouds. See picture below showing ion cloud hovering above treasure from science website.

Best Wishes,
J_P
This is not from a science website. :nono:
This is pseudoscientific rubbish from Mineoro. :razz:

[J_Player]

Hi Qiaozhi,

I am so sorry, I wish this was a true science, then I could find gold ions in a convenient cloud to tell me where is the treasure. Grrrrrrr.....! :angry:

Ok, I will look for some real science for ions in the ground. Stay tuned.

Best wishes,
J_P

[J_Player]

Gold ions in the ground? Interesting research...

In recent decades scientists have been studying strange micro-organisms that move gold and other metals through the soil. These microscopic bacteria and fungi can convert dissolved gold into solid gold, and visa versa. There are several mines where gold nuggets were found to have been manufactured by microbes that converted gold ions dissolved in the soil into metallic gold, precipitated on the face of a growing nugget.

Does this sound hard to believe? If it is true, it means there are gold ions in the soil, and not just a few unmeasurable ions, but enough to make nuggets from.

According to geomicrobiologist Frank Reith, "...the precipitation of gold by micro-organisms, and thus in the biomineralisation of gold, which as recent evidence suggests has led to the formation of some of the world largest gold deposits."

But in addition to micro-organisms precipitating metallic gold, there are microbes that ionize and dissolve gold:

"In soils with high contents of organic matter heterotrophic bacteria and fungi appear to dominate the gold dissolution by excreting amino acids, low molecular weight organic acids (LMWOAs), cyanide or organic sulfur compounds. These molecules were shown to have the ability to dissolve native gold and act as complexing agents for the resulting gold ions."

Wet soil samples were incubated with these microbes, then gold pellets were added to the soil. After 20-30 days of incubation, up to 3 ppm of gold was found in solution, compared to none measurable in the sterilized soil samples with gold pellets.

Now, how do atoms from a gold pellet get into solution? They have to become ionized first! Thus it cannot be true that buried gold does not form ions. We are talking about small amounts (3ppm), But this is the amount measured in some small sample test areas after a month in the ground. The investigations into mine sites from the real world show that this process can happen on a much larger scale, creating nuggets that are very pure where microbes precipitated the gold (98% and better).

Not all gold nuggets are created by microbes. Many are formed with cooling molten rock masses. The gold formed by microbes is derived from these primary gold sources in the ground. But it has been discovered that there are many nuggets which have a rich outer gold shell, and a lower purity gold in the center. In some cases these were nuggets formed by molten gold cooling, then later, microbes deposited a layer of higher purity gold on the top surfaces.

Because it takes some time for these microbes to ionize buried gold metal and put it in solution with the surrounding soil, it tells us that long time buried gold is different than fresh gold that was recently put in the ground. In addition, there are microbes that will attack the other metals alloyed with gold like silver, copper, platinum, etc. According to these studies, some soil is richer in these gold-eating microbes than other soil, so we can expect some soils to show a greater difference between fresh gold and long time buried gold.

In the case of the other microbes that convert the ions back into gold metal, we will find gold nuggets that have ions around them being converted into metallic gold to precipitate and grow the nugget. These new gold nuggets may have similar halo properties as gold that is decomposing.

Check here to read this article:
http://crcleme.org.au/NewsEvents/News/Archive/2004/AUSIMMReith.pdf


Here are more web pages with information about gold microbes:

Microbes manufacture gold nuggets: http://www.geotimes.org/sept06/NN_Microbes.html

Electron micrographs of microbes moving gold associated with Au(III) reduction:
http://aem.asm.org/cgi/reprint/67/7/3275.pdf

Microbes convert dissolved gold into solid metallic gold:
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2001/08/0830_goldbug.html

http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/stories/s1032376.htm

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/08/060802103513.htm

Report says scientists have ascertained the microbe’s process converts approximately 1% of exposed gold per year.
http://sandersresearch.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1171&Itemid=102

http://www.ornl.gov/info/ornlreview/rev32_3/amazing.htm
http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200607/15/eng20060715_283189.html


You will find thousands more reports on microbes that eat gold and other metals if you google for "gold microbe": http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=gold+microbe&btnG=Search

So what do you think? Do these microbes help to locate long time buried gold and other non-ferrous metals?
Is this a good case for "the halo effect" on long-time buried gold and coins?
:???:

[FrancoItaly]

Hi All
It's very interesting what J PLAYER says, I think this is a scientific argument for long range detection. As very few gold ions, I suppose, are converted from metal gold, very small current, PicoAmpere range or less, are generated and it justifies the use of instruments based of very high impedance input. The 100 V/meter atmospheric voltage perhaps it suggests
the use of an equal artificial voltage but with opposite polarity to cancel the obstacle... by using a RF magnetic field we can to push ions from ground to the instrument... Well I think it's the description of Esteban's pistol !!!

[Max]

Gold ions in the ground? Interesting research...

In recent decades scientists have been studying strange micro-organisms that move gold and other metals through the soil. These microscopic bacteria and fungi can convert dissolved gold into solid gold, and visa versa. There are several mines where gold nuggets were found to have been manufactured by microbes that converted gold ions dissolved in the soil into metallic gold, precipitated on the face of a growing nugget.

Does this sound hard to believe? If it is true, it means there are gold ions in the soil, and not just a few unmeasurable ions, but enough to make nuggets from.

According to geomicrobiologist Frank Reith, "...the precipitation of gold by micro-organisms, and thus in the biomineralisation of gold, which as recent evidence suggests has led to the formation of some of the world largest gold deposits."

But in addition to micro-organisms precipitating metallic gold, there are microbes that ionize and dissolve gold:

"In soils with high contents of organic matter heterotrophic bacteria and fungi appear to dominate the gold dissolution by excreting amino acids, low molecular weight organic acids (LMWOAs), cyanide or organic sulfur compounds. These molecules were shown to have the ability to dissolve native gold and act as complexing agents for the resulting gold ions."

Wet soil samples were incubated with these microbes, then gold pellets were added to the soil. After 20-30 days of incubation, up to 3 ppm of gold was found in solution, compared to none measurable in the sterilized soil samples with gold pellets.

Now, how do atoms from a gold pellet get into solution? They have to become ionized first! Thus it cannot be true that buried gold does not form ions. We are talking about small amounts (3ppm), But this is the amount measured in some small sample test areas after a month in the ground. The investigations into mine sites from the real world show that this process can happen on a much larger scale, creating nuggets that are very pure where microbes precipitated the gold (98% and better).

Not all gold nuggets are created by microbes. Many are formed with cooling molten rock masses. The gold formed by microbes is derived from these primary gold sources in the ground. But it has been discovered that there are many nuggets which have a rich outer gold shell, and a lower purity gold in the center. In some cases these were nuggets formed by molten gold cooling, then later, microbes deposited a layer of higher purity gold on the top surfaces.

Because it takes some time for these microbes to ionize buried gold metal and put it in solution with the surrounding soil, it tells us that long time buried gold is different than fresh gold that was recently put in the ground. In addition, there are microbes that will attack the other metals alloyed with gold like silver, copper, platinum, etc. According to these studies, some soil is richer in these gold-eating microbes than other soil, so we can expect some soils to show a greater difference between fresh gold and long time buried gold.

In the case of the other microbes that convert the ions back into gold metal, we will find gold nuggets that have ions around them being converted into metallic gold to precipitate and grow the nugget. These new gold nuggets may have similar halo properties as gold that is decomposing.

Check here to read this article:
http://crcleme.org.au/NewsEvents/News/Archive/2004/AUSIMMReith.pdf


Here are more web pages with information about gold microbes:

Microbes manufacture gold nuggets: http://www.geotimes.org/sept06/NN_Microbes.html

Electron micrographs of microbes moving gold associated with Au(III) reduction:
http://aem.asm.org/cgi/reprint/67/7/3275.pdf

Microbes convert dissolved gold into solid metallic gold:
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2001/08/0830_goldbug.html

http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/stories/s1032376.htm

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/08/060802103513.htm

Report says scientists have ascertained the microbe’s process converts approximately 1% of exposed gold per year.
http://sandersresearch.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1171&Itemid=102

http://www.ornl.gov/info/ornlreview/rev32_3/amazing.htm
http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200607/15/eng20060715_283189.html


You will find thousands more reports on microbes that eat gold and other metals if you google for "gold microbe": http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=gold+microbe&btnG=Search

So what do you think? Do these microbes help to locate long time buried gold and other non-ferrous metals?
Is this a good case for "the halo effect" on long-time buried gold and coins?
:???:

Hi,
yes it is interesting. I start having thoughts on alternative halo generation when noticed that some worms (yes worms !) are really good detected by conventionals MDs, vlf but also sometimes PI. One time I dig something like 50 worms concentrated in a single spot at maybe 10cm depth. :rolleyes:

So, I've supposed similar stuff... bacterial attack on buried metals and then worms collecting bacterials and also small amounts of metal ! So, seems that now we can say they exist! :cool:
I cannot make nothing but just guesses at that time... but now I'm pleased to know that these bacterial colonies exist for real. Nice.

I've also noticed that with an early designed vlf I could also detect plant roots... and I think same stuff involved... but maybe also "fungi" are involved there. You know they are simbiotic beings and sometimes bind their microscopic roots (thin white stripes) with grass roots or other plants too.

I know also that in some australian fields there are big nuggets just between tree roots ! :) But don't know if this is the reason... they are big nuggets!

So, I think that halo generation in ground is even due to chemicals... but not only chemicals in matrix, but now also due to micro-organisms in the matrix too. This would be important for gold halo generation cause gold is low reactive to most of the chemicals out there with just few exceptions, and bacteria/fungi interaction could explain how it migrates in solution... so in the matrix also in places where "right" chemicals are absent.

So "Is this a good case for "the halo effect" on long-time buried gold and coins?"
I think YES! IT IS!

Best regards,
Max

[J_Player]

Hi Max,
I start having thoughts on alternative halo generation when noticed that some worms (yes worms !) are really good detected by conventionals MDs, vlf but also sometimes PI. One time I dig something like 50 worms concentrated in a single spot at maybe 10cm depth. :rolleyes:

Max, this is amazing. I have a hard time believing there is enough metal in 50 worms to make any metal detector signal. But maybe there is another explanation: Sometimes when you are hunting in mineralized soil that has high iron content, you can hear a signal when you find a hollow cavern - empty air space under the ground. What you are hearing is the anomaly of no iron in the air pocket. It is possible that 50 worms together can take a space in the soil to make a cavern that does not have the same mineralization of the surrounding soil. And maybe this is the reason you saw a signal. I really don't know the answer. But I have a hard time believing 50 worms have enough metal to show a metal signal unless the worms eat some jewelry. :eek:

The ionization that microbes make from buried metals contains less metal than the buried metal target. If this ionization makes a halo, then the halo is not double the signal strength of the buried metal piece, it is only a fraction more than the buried metal would signal when compared to freshly buried with no ionization from microbes. The improved signal of a halo may come partly from the metal ions, and partly from the electronic activity of the microbes and chemicals working around the buried target.

I have often wondered about the signal strength of long time buried treasure. I wonder this: We hear stories of a treasure hunter digs an old coin with a strong signal, then after out of the ground, they discover the signal is smaller. After the coin is dug, it is not possible to measure how much signal is remaining in the soil around the coin, because this soil has been dug and scattered on the surface -- no longer same matrix as it was around the buried coin. What I wonder is this... Suppose you have a method to retrieve the buried coin with halo, but not disturb the surrounding soil. If you can remove the coin without disturbing the soil, then you can take second reading with your metal detector to see how much signal remains from only the soil where the coin was removed, and halo from only the soil.

This would be very good data to know, for research to understand the importance of halo contribution to treasure detection. Maybe someone can discover a way to recover a buried target without disturbing the surrounding ground with shovels. I don't see any easy way, but maybe somebody else knows a good way to test for halo.

Best wishes,
J_P

[Seden]

What we're discussing here is the Geochemistry of gold. Gold very much spreads out in many ways besides in metallic form and one of them is ionic. Go to a University library and pull the book "The Geochemistry of gold and its deposits" Geological Survey Bulletin 280 by R.W. Boyle 1979.
Chapter IV entitled "Oxidation and Secondary enrichment of gold deposits". Or go to google and type in "Secondary enrichment of gold" or "Supergene gold". This is what forms "pocket gold" the old time prospectors were always after.
Now whether this ionic gold makes it into the air I dunno and if I get the chance I'll sit down and write a Geochemist or you can too.

We can theorize till we all die from Al Gore's Global Warming,but we need to contact someone who works in the field of Geochemistry. But yes gold very much spreads out that's why we use Geochemical Exploration (remember the Purple cassias test for the quantity of gold in soil?) means to trace gold back to it's source. I have taken "grab samples" of soil and sent them in to an Assayer for analysis. If you're not familiar with the term "Grab sample" google it. There's some good papers on Economic Geology. If we study up on these things it will further our ability to come up with better ways to detect gold or whatever metal as far as science will allow us.

Randy

[FrancoItaly]

Hi All
I think that it is not important if gold's ions go into the air. They are important to create a ground battery with another metal or mineral. This process it takes many years if the distance is remarkable but it's scientifically possible. The probleme is to measure a difference of voltage of a battery with only pole to disposition.

[Qiaozhi]

Hi Max,

Max, this is amazing. I have a hard time believing there is enough metal in 50 worms to make any metal detector signal. But maybe there is another explanation: Sometimes when you are hunting in mineralized soil that has high iron content, you can hear a signal when you find a hollow cavern - empty air space under the ground. What you are hearing is the anomaly of no iron in the air pocket. It is possible that 50 worms together can take a space in the soil to make a cavern that does not have the same mineralization of the surrounding soil. And maybe this is the reason you saw a signal. I really don't know the answer. But I have a hard time believing 50 worms have enough metal to show a metal signal unless the worms eat some jewelry. :eek:
J_P
This "50 worm signal" is more likely due to an incorrect ground balance setting than worms producing gold. If there are enough worms concentrated in a small area, the signal from the ground matrix would fluctuate as the search head passes over this anomaly and produce a false response.
Or is this really a joke? For instance - how many worms does it take to produce one gold ion? Answers on a postcard please... :lol:

[J_Player]

Hello friends!
I am new member here, need help about lrl. Does those things really works?
I am tired of conventional md's...so low depths! Any chance to go deeper than 30cm's on coins? I saw Hung and Estebans fantastic claims!!!???
Is it possible? If it is,than how can i get those?

According to Carl Moreland, owner of this forum, no lrl works. He has tested many lrls including the Mineoro models that Hung says will find gold, and he discovered it does not find anything except electronic noise from his electric fence. You can also read some tests that Carl made when he opened up some lrls here: http://geotech.thunting.com/cgi-bin/pages/common/index.pl?page=lrl&file=reports.dat
Also look here for tests on the Mineoro FG80: http://thunting.com/geotech/forums/showthread.php?t=12226 Look at the complaints from the owners of the Mineoro like Carl, vcrb, neronc, and look at the electronic diagrams they found when they opened the LRL. According to Carl and others, the electronics are rubbish, not capable of finding treasure.

I have read postings from many owners of lrls who say they wish they could have back their money because they do not find any treasure from their lrl. Carl, Qiaozhi, and many others have said these are all false detectors that do not find treasures. Because of what they say, I would ask to see a demonstration of a lrl finding the treasure that you hide before you pay money for it. I have found nobody on earth who is willing to demonstrate any lrl finding a treasure in front of you. I know of nobody who will show you how to find a treasure in person using their machine. Not a manufacturer or an owner of an lrl. Not anywhere on earth. But the dealers are happy to take your money if you want to buy one without testing it first.

To answer your question: "Is it possible? If it is,than how can i get those?"
I believe it is possible. But I doubt the LRLs currently on the market can give acceptable results, because the builders of these machines don't seem to know much of the true dynamics of the signals they are sensing. For example, it is pretty simple to prove there are no gold ions hovering in a cloud 7.2 feet in the air above a buried treasure like one manufacturer claims. The only way I know you can get a LRL that works is to build it yourself, or find someone who can build one that works for you.

If I knew of any reliable LRLs that have been built or are in use today, I would not be talking about them in this forum. This forum is a geotech forum, designed for people to share technical information, not a forum to keep trade secrets safe.

J_P

[Nihil Roma Maius]

So, the halo and ions are the flatulence of microbes causes by gold-indigestion? :lol: :lol: :lol: (only is a joke, calm!!!)

how many worms does it take to produce one gold ion? Answers on a postcard please... :lol:

This has relation with an old theological Medium Era discussion:

How many angels can dance in the head of a pin? :lol: :lol: :lol:

But here is the solution:

http://headofapin.net/

But the angels also CAN to sing and pray at same time! :razz: Risum teneatis!:lol:

[J_Player]

So, the halo and ions are the flatulence of microbes causes by gold-indigestion? (only is a joke, calm!!!)

Actually, the halo and ions produced would be considered the feces of microbes, while the deposition of metallic gold would be considered the feces of other microbes. The flatulence of microbes is thought to be a gaseous by-product of digesting gold and other minerals. According to several studies, the flatulence of microbes contributes to the accumulation of toxic gases that must be ventilated from mine shafts. If there are any gold atoms in these gaseous discharges, I suppose they could be called "the golden fart". :D

[Seden]

Franco,
The method you described is called Spontaneous Polarization and would be good to google it. I have a paper Dr.Charles E. Corry sent me from his article in Geophysics,Vol.50,NO.6 (June 1985) entitled "Spontaneous polarization associated with porphyry sulfide mineralization". Locating sulfide deposits (which is usually associted with lode minerals) but also graphite and high grade anthracite coal. Now there are gold sulphides along with copper that I know of but to separate gold from all these can't be done with just SP alone.

J-Player,very good links regarding the microbes that produce metallic gold and even nuggets! This Roma Maius is just trying to be a jackass and which is consistant with those who do not share in the technical discussions so must be shunned by the group.

Randy

[Max]

Hi Max,


Max, this is amazing. I have a hard time believing there is enough metal in 50 worms to make any metal detector signal. But maybe there is another explanation: Sometimes when you are hunting in mineralized soil that has high iron content, you can hear a signal when you find a hollow cavern - empty air space under the ground. What you are hearing is the anomaly of no iron in the air pocket. It is possible that 50 worms together can take a space in the soil to make a cavern that does not have the same mineralization of the surrounding soil. And maybe this is the reason you saw a signal. I really don't know the answer. But I have a hard time believing 50 worms have enough metal to show a metal signal unless the worms eat some jewelry. :eek:

The ionization that microbes make from buried metals contains less metal than the buried metal target. If this ionization makes a halo, then the halo is not double the signal strength of the buried metal piece, it is only a fraction more than the buried metal would signal when compared to freshly buried with no ionization from microbes. The improved signal of a halo may come partly from the metal ions, and partly from the electronic activity of the microbes and chemicals working around the buried target.

I have often wondered about the signal strength of long time buried treasure. I wonder this: We hear stories of a treasure hunter digs an old coin with a strong signal, then after out of the ground, they discover the signal is smaller. After the coin is dug, it is not possible to measure how much signal is remaining in the soil around the coin, because this soil has been dug and scattered on the surface -- no longer same matrix as it was around the buried coin. What I wonder is this... Suppose you have a method to retrieve the buried coin with halo, but not disturb the surrounding soil. If you can remove the coin without disturbing the soil, then you can take second reading with your metal detector to see how much signal remains from only the soil where the coin was removed, and halo from only the soil.

This would be very good data to know, for research to understand the importance of halo contribution to treasure detection. Maybe someone can discover a way to recover a buried target without disturbing the surrounding ground with shovels. I don't see any easy way, but maybe somebody else knows a good way to test for halo.

Best wishes,
J_P

Hi J_Player,
I know that seems impossible... but after digging that worms they sounded when their mass (were a lot) was on the coil ! :lol:
Belive me it's incredible I know... and also geb stuff I've also thought is not a right explaination of the fact. Don't know why but they sounded... of course... with plant roots yes maybe was geb tuned out or something else... cause after making the holes and collected roots on the coil no sound was generated.

I don't know why that worms sounded. I noticed in same place, with a PI detector (GS4) same thing!:cool:

What to say... I don't know why it happens and just in one place till now I've noticed that strange thing happen !:shocked: In other places no... yes found many worms too but never sounded !

When I saw your post about bacteria I thought that this could be the cause... but maybe are the worms themselves... their structure...I don't know. :razz:

Anyway, it's true... and remains for me a big borderline argument:rolleyes:

Best regards,
Max

[Max]

This "50 worm signal" is more likely due to an incorrect ground balance setting than worms producing gold. If there are enough worms concentrated in a small area, the signal from the ground matrix would fluctuate as the search head passes over this anomaly and produce a false response.
Or is this really a joke? For instance - how many worms does it take to produce one gold ion? Answers on a postcard please... :lol:

Hi Qiaozhi,

"Or is this really a joke? " ehm :D

No... it seems a joke cause worms are involved... but I don't know why they sounded... SOUNDED FOR REAL! This is the problem... I cannot say why and so guessed that they could got ions or something from ground.
(maybe iron oxides ??? Who knows ???)

Really I don't know why. :rolleyes:


Just to complicate things...
Field is located in an old mil airbase... that suffered from heavy bombing during WWII. Lot of scraps of iron and many things... iron... steel... brass... copper... a lot them! (and who knows maybe gold too!)

Best regards,
Max

[Nihil Roma Maius]

I suppose they could be called "the golden fart". :D

This is the main reason you can't use Tesla-spark system... You can explode... :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Nihil Roma Maius]

Now, most serious. Some years ago I built a nanovoltmeter attached to a short antenna. This has in output an audio generator. I was surprised that detects changes in sites with natural (type tubular) holes. I suspect that the air compressed in it has a small voltage, maybe also causes false alarms in metal detector, is a kind of halo, very well detectable by regular MD, but you NEVER will find the target. Another extrange think detectable by this nanovoltmeter is bamboo roots!

Many years ago we found a small treasure in a silver container. Over the treasure there was a stone. When we up the stone, the compressed gas, yes THE GAS, when out with sound sssshhhh!!!

[J_Player]

Now, most serious. Some years ago I built a nanovoltmeter attached to a short antenna. This has in output an audio generator. I was surprised that detects changes in sites with natural (type tubular) holes. I suspect that the air compressed in it has a small voltage, maybe also causes false alarms in metal detector, is a kind of halo, very well detectable by regular MD, but you NEVER will find the target. Another extrange think detectable by this nanovoltmeter is bamboo roots!

Hi Nihil Roma Maius,
If you are measuring differences of nanovolts in the air space above the ground, the composition and topography of the ground can have an influence in the variations of the signals you measure. First, keep in mind there is approximately 100v/meter voltage gradient in the atmosphere that is powered by gamma and other space energies acting on the ionosphere. This means if you look at a flat ground that is uniform with no buried objects or underground anomalies, you can expect the electric charge in the space above that ground will increase about 100 volts with each meter increase of altitude. And this gradient will be uniform above the flat uniform ground area.

What happens when you walk into this flat ground is you become part of the ground through electrical contact of your feet (not perfect contact depending on shoe materials and moisture). But you cause an anomaly in the voltage gradient found in the air, similar to how a mountain will move the ground potential upward into the space gradient.

Also consider that not all ground is flat or uniform. If you have a flat dry ground with a large mass of conductive ore concentrated in a hole at the surface, then this conductive area will be expected to show as an anomaly in the voltage gradient above it, localized around the hole, and can be detected with sensitive instruments designed to measure the space charge, or voltage gradient among other techniques.

In the case of bamboo roots, these are like long tubes that concentrate water, and are often more conductive than the surrounding soil if the bamboo is growing in relatively dry soil. The more conductive roots and the part of the plant above ground can be expected to act as a grounding rod for the local charge gradient in the air. Consider that in a flat sandy area, the top layer of dry sand could be expected to be an insulator with similar conductivity to the air above, and the 100v/meter space charge may continue into the dry sand below the surface. But when the gradient goes deep enough to find higher conductive damp soil or conductors that are connected to damp soil, then we can expect the gradient to drop to the ground potential.

Now if you find a metal object or plant roots that are surrounded by less conductive soil, and also in contact with more conductive soil, You can expect the location of these roots or metal objects will show a voltage gradient anomaly in the air that you may be able to measure with your sensitive instrument. This would be also true of caverns and air tubes in the ground, which would normally be expected to be less conductive than the surrounding soil. The less conductive locations would show a higher positive charge anomaly rather than more negative like conductive objects. These hollow spots in the ground could be detectable the same as conductive objects with a sensitive enough instrument, and depending on the soil conditions.

A concentration of mineral ions or other ions in the soil could also have some influence on the local space charge in the air above these locations. I would expect ionized gases to quickly dissipate their charge in the neighbouring soil to reach a relative ground potential. But in the case of large tubes and vents, I am not so sure a mass of ionized gas could not exist. I still think it is more likely that you would detect a voltage gradient anomaly in the air above because of ionization in the soil, not from ionized gas.

I would be interested to know the details of the nanovoltmeter you built. In particular the physical configuration of the probe and any shielding or reflectors, and electric connections to measure the charge and grounding used, if any. Also, did you use any circuitry to avoid measuring noise? I presume you used a high impedance input FET and several stages before reaching the audio section.

Best wishes,
J_P

[FrancoItaly]

Hi J Player
Your scientific reasonings are always interesting and appropriated!

Seden I have a old geophysicist handbook (italian, years 1953) " the electronic dowser" but in spite of title it's a technical handbook.
It deals of Spontaneous Polarization and also of Oxide Reduction battery that it works with one metal that it lies in two different ambients.

Best wishes

[Qiaozhi]

Hi Qiaozhi,

"Or is this really a joke? " ehm :D

No... it seems a joke cause worms are involved... but I don't know why they sounded... SOUNDED FOR REAL! This is the problem... I cannot say why and so guessed that they could got ions or something from ground.
(maybe iron oxides ??? Who knows ???)

Really I don't know why. :rolleyes:


Just to complicate things...
Field is located in an old mil airbase... that suffered from heavy bombing during WWII. Lot of scraps of iron and many things... iron... steel... brass... copper... a lot them! (and who knows maybe gold too!)

Best regards,
Max
When you dug up the worms did you recheck to see whether the signal was still there?

[J_Player]

After intense interrogation and threats of dissection, the worm-burglar coughs up the stolen ring:

[Seden]

I typed in Google "earthworms"metallic content and also typed in "earth Worms"metallic content and I got alot of articles on how earthworms retain the metals in soil and in particular lead. Well well, nice to know that this is now a scientific fact,especially if you had a concentration of 50 together. The mass of small metallic content of the worms would be seen collectively by a metal detectors coil. Similarly to having a vial full of powedered metal.8)


Randy

[J_Player]

Interesting research, Seden. According to some of these studies, the leached metal content of the soil can reach well over 1% metal.

At the southwest pacific coast in USA, people are warned not to eat muscles taken from the ocean tide pools because they concentrate heavy metals thought to originate from local effluent and chemicals that run off from storm drains. This makes me wonder: How much lead and other metals can earthworms concentrate that have been leaching into the soil at a military base? Are earthworms able to concentrate enough lead, cadmium, zinc and other metals to read on a metal detector?

In order to detect these metals that a worm might ingest, they usually need to be in the form of a solid chunk of metal. Finely ground grains and powders become very difficult to detect with metal detectors. Let us be generous and presume these worms were able to ingest enough metal to make up 15% of their body weight. If a ball of worms weighed 100 grams, then this would be 15 grams metal. If this metal is in colloidal form that can chelate into small deposits in the worm's body, and if these deposits are making good contact along the length of the worm's body, maybe there is an argument they "grew a thin metal wire inside them". Maybe a more likely argument is they swallowed some lead shotgun pellets and other metal grains that remained in their bodies in enough quantities to give a reading on a metal detector. In the worst case, Max found a ball of worms that swallowed 15 grams of gold flakes which they were not able to digest, and remained in their bodies. Then, being unable to determine why the worms gave a reading, he threw them out. :cry:

Best wishes,
J_P

[Max]

When you dug up the worms did you recheck to see whether the signal was still there?

Hi,
yes I've rechecked the hole... yes there was still some signal but then digged again and found other worms masked by soil, but few, then signal disappeared from hole.
Just worms were the cause of signal ? I think so... but don't know why...
and I also "opened" few of them... just found some ink like liquid inside maybe mixed with some soil... :D

So I gived up with them and the whole place for a while... then searched again with GS4 and same thing happened. Cause there are too many falsing due to that things I endly decided don't go there anymore for metal detecting... also though I found a number of things there like bullet shells, but nothing for real good.

Strange things happen there. :rolleyes:

Bast regards,
Max

[Max]

Interesting research, Seden. According to some of these studies, the leached metal content of the soil can reach well over 1% metal.

At the southwest pacific coast in USA, people are warned not to eat muscles taken from the ocean tide pools because they concentrate heavy metals thought to originate from local effluent and chemicals that run off from storm drains. This makes me wonder: How much lead and other metals can earthworms concentrate that have been leaching into the soil at a military base? Are earthworms able to concentrate enough lead, cadmium, zinc and other metals to read on a metal detector?

In order to detect these metals that a worm might ingest, they usually need to be in the form of a solid chunk of metal. Finely ground grains and powders become very difficult to detect with metal detectors. Let us be generous and presume these worms were able to ingest enough metal to make up 15% of their body weight. If a ball of worms weighed 100 grams, then this would be 15 grams metal. If this metal is in colloidal form that can chelate into small deposits in the worm's body, and if these deposits are making good contact along the length of the worm's body, maybe there is an argument they "grew a thin metal wire inside them". Maybe a more likely argument is they swallowed some lead shotgun pellets and other metal grains that remained in their bodies in enough quantities to give a reading on a metal detector. In the worst case, Max found a ball of worms that swallowed 15 grams of gold flakes which they were not able to digest, and remained in their bodies. Then, being unable to determine why the worms gave a reading, he threw them out. :cry:

Best wishes,
J_P

Hi,
well I really don't know if signal was due to metals... can't say anything sure about. Maybe I have to collect them and send to some lab... I don't know.
What I'm sure is that I've that readings at few cm depth and just with hi-sensitive machines like GS4 (but also a VLF), and with lot of them in a kind of hollow underground. Also soil there is somehow strange... seems really dark humus type and there are lot of these worms.

I think that an environment control agency would find lot of contamination in that soil.

I think that, like happens in bricks or pottery, when you search in that place with a sensitive md you get signal cause maybe there are concentrations of iron oxides in worms, somehow maybe mag dipoles oriented...
Just my hipotesys.

Best regards,
Max

[J_Player]

We recently read about microbes moving gold and other metals through the soil, and also ionizing and precipitating solid gold in places where it did not exist before. In addition to those microbe processes, there are also some other chemical methods that allow gold and other metals to move through the soil in the form of ions. According to many studies made by oil and mineral exploration companies, metals in the ground will ionize, and the ions will move upward to the surface where they become bound with the surface constituents. Only after losing their ion status, these metal compounds continue with further migration laterally along the ground.

What they are saying is trace amounts of ions form as buried metals and ores dissolve into the surrounding soil. From there, they move to the surface leaving a trail of ions and an area of ionized metal at the surface soil that marks the location of buried metal. Because these ions quickly neutralize at the surface, they do not move away from the source of the metal as an ion. Thus these are called "mobile metal ions" until they neutralize and cease to be ions at the surface.

In essence, the presence of metal ions in the surface soil is an accurate pin pointer for metal and ores beneath the surface.
Today there are a number of companies for hire to take measurements of metal ions at the surface to tell you what minerals are below. This technique is used to identify the presence of petroleum and other minerals including gold, copper, zinc, iron and others. Some reports show magnetic anomalies and halos as well as ionic anomalies in the soil measured above mineral deposits. A number of gold mining operations use this method to locate the gold below the soil.

Check here to read more about these mobile metal ions rising to the surface to mark the location of buried metal or ore:
http://www.geoconvention.org/2007abstracts/037S0126.pdf
http://www.mmigeochem.com/Mobilizing%20Your%20Ions%20April%202001.pdf
http://www.mmigeochem.com/frwelcome.htm
http://www.innovation.wa.gov.au/Innovation/portal_skin%3BEnhanced/Innovation%20Directory/g/geochemistry_research_centre/mobile_metal_ion
http://geea.geoscienceworld.org/cgi/content/abstract/5/3/201
http://www.diggerresources.com/hdrg.htm
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0EIN/is_2005_Jan_7/ai_n8682755

Google for measure "mobile metal ions" to read a lot more mining companies using this method: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=measure+%22mobile+metal+ions%22&btnG=Search


Of course these ions do not form and rise to the surface overnight. This can take many years, depending on the soil composition. So what do you think? Does this sound like another explanation of how "long time buried" is not the same as fresh?

[FrancoItaly]

Hi All
I think that it's the scientific demonstration that long range gold detection it's possible...

[Seden]

FrancoItaly,

This is true far as doing a chemical analysis or XRF method,the challenge is to find a way to do it electronically. Some sort of way to detect down to the ion level in soil,hmm.
Sounds like an unsolved opportunity and it has to have discrimination too.

Alonso,are you lurking out there,help us out man!:razz:

Randy

[Dell Winders]

I'm happy to see a thread with rational, open minded, logical thinking among some of you instead of the usual display of opinionated arrogance, egotism, ignorance, and mockery encouraged by Carl,s self serving agenda that has driven knowledgeable, field experienced people away from this forum who tried to share their knowledge and experience with you.

An example of his closed minded arrogance leading the blind.

By studying Earth Science, you are now learning what I have already learned through years of field experience and you are partially on the right track.

Always keep in mind, What has already been done, can be done, whether you choose to learn and understand the process, or not. The facts still remain.

Good luck! Dell

[Qiaozhi]

Hi All
I think that it's the scientific demonstration that long range gold detection it's possible...
J_Player was just speculating whether the worms could actually digest enough metal to make them "visible" to a metal detector. So quite how you've managed to conclude that this scientifically demonstrates the plausibility of long range gold detection is beyond me. :nono:
It is this type of pseudoscientific non-thinking that makes a mockery of this LRL nonsense.
Not that it needs any help. :D

[J_Player]

J_Player was just speculating whether the worms could actually digest enough metal to make them "visible" to a metal detector. So quite how you've managed to conclude that this scientifically demonstrates the plausibility of long range gold detection is beyond me. :nono:

Hi Qiaozhi,

Maybe you missed something. If you look at my post above, you will find that there are companies who use chemical analysis to locate areas of the ground containing metal ions leached from metal or ores deep below. This technique is used by a number of gold mining and oil exploration companies. What Franco is referencing is the fact they found surface soil containing metal ions that can be used to pinpoint a target deep below in the ground.

Unless all these companies are lying about what they found, we can expect to find a trail of metal ions rising vertically in the soil above a long-time buried metal object or ore. These ions have a very short lifetime once they reach the surface, so by locating soil with metal ions at the surface, you have a convenient pin-pointer for a buried target.

The problems in locating these targets from long distance are:
1. Build an instrument that can detect extremely small amounts of metal ions in the soil of a field that may be contaminated with many other signals to interfere with the sensing instrument. (Interfering signals include all kinds of electrical noise from the atmosphere, man-made and natural, as well as tiny current flows and fields in the ground).
2. After constructing this instrument to locate the metal ions in the soil at distance, find a method to get the instrument to identify what metal ions you have located in the soil.
3. An optional feature of a working LRL would be to find a method to determine the depth of the buried target. There may be some reasonable method to accomplish this, because according to the reports, there is a trail of ions from the buried object to the surface of the soil that rises pretty much vertically. Perhaps there are physical properties of this ion-impregnated soil column that can be measured to determine its height.

My question to you is:
After reading the reports, do you think there are metal ions in the surface soil like they say? And, do you know of some reasons why it would not be possible to develop an electronic instrument to locate this weak concentration of metal ions at long range (over 20 feet)?

Best wishes,
J_P

[Max]

Hi Qiaozhi,

Maybe you missed something. If you look at my post above, you will find that there are companies who use chemical analysis to locate areas of the ground containing metal ions leached from metal or ores deep below. This technique is used by a number of gold mining and oil exploration companies. What Franco is referencing is the fact they found surface soil containing metal ions that can be used to pinpoint a target deep below in the ground.

Unless all these companies are lying about what they found, we can expect to find a trail of metal ions rising vertically in the soil above a long-time buried metal object or ore. These ions have a very short lifetime once they reach the surface, so by locating soil with metal ions at the surface, you have a convenient pin-pointer for a buried target.

The problems in locating these targets from long distance are:
1. Build an instrument that can detect extremely small amounts of metal ions in the soil of a field that may be contaminated with many other signals to interfere with the sensing instrument. (Interfering signals include all kinds of electrical noise from the atmosphere, man-made and natural, as well as tiny current flows and fields in the ground).
2. After constructing this instrument to locate the metal ions in the soil at distance, find a method to get the instrument to identify what metal ions you have located in the soil.
3. An optional feature of a working LRL would be to find a method to determine the depth of the buried target. There may be some reasonable method to accomplish this, because according to the reports, there is a trail of ions from the buried object to the surface of the soil that rises pretty much vertically. Perhaps there are physical properties of this ion-impregnated soil column that can be measured to determine its height.

My question to you is:
After reading the reports, do you think there are metal ions in the surface soil like they say? And, do you know of some reasons why it would not be possible to develop an electronic instrument to locate this weak concentration of metal ions at long range (over 20 feet)?

Best wishes,
J_P

Hi,
"
After reading the reports, do you think there are metal ions in the surface soil like they say? And, do you know of some reasons why it would not be possible to develop an electronic instrument to locate this weak concentration of metal ions at long range (over 20 feet)?
"

1. think is possible that metal ions are on surface soil...why not. Matrix-metal interactions could generate ionic-pairs, really small amounts. Also bacteria or other "simple" lifeform that stay in the matrix... I agree on that point.

2. electronic lrl ??? I think is possible e.g. put a sharp tip in the soil, for some cm depth... and getting some data due to some accurate sensor... like some airborn-ion-sniffers do...

I saw one time an object like this in a scientific reportage on Mars (or Venus?) exploring by some kind of robot (soviet union space program) that used 2 different methods to analize elements in planet soil:
- using a sharp tip tool, inserting it in soil... then some kind of reactions take place to give electrical signals to onboard computer
- using a kind of pipe... (very interesting!)

second method was different, pipe have at top a pulse laser... (something like 1Mw burst, really powerful)...
work like this:
- robot put pipe on the soil exercing a big pressure
- when end of pipe was inserted in soil a laser burst was triggered
- laser pulse energize and "vaporize" some superficial soil particles, thus generating (also) airborn-ions
- then internal analyzer ("ion sniffer") trap ions and count them
- then data was sent to onboard computer for transmission to Earth

So , I think that big problem... as always stated here is that you need to test soil directly (like oil companies do) or use an airborn-ion generator (of some kind) to get ions from soil... to get LRL work, cause there isn't any real , natural ,good and predictable self-generation of airborn ions. This is the hard problem.

You have only two way :
- or a "passive" device that analize soil directly (like lab would do but electronically... seems hard to do, require some kind of chemical binding... specific compounds...)
- or an "active" device that make airborn ions from matrix to be sniffed by sensor (electronically too and easier, but with the use of an airborn ion generator)

Seems possible both way... but require lot of technology! :rolleyes:

Best regards,
Max

[Qiaozhi]

My question to you is:
After reading the reports, do you think there are metal ions in the surface soil like they say? And, do you know of some reasons why it would not be possible to develop an electronic instrument to locate this weak concentration of metal ions at long range (over 20 feet)?

Best wishes,
J_P
For metal ions to be detectable from a long distance away they would need to be airborne. If there are metal ions in the surface soil it is highly unlikely that these would be gold ions. However, if we suspend belief for a moment and speculate that these gold ions might be present in the soil, then their concentraion would be so infinitesimally small that only a lab analysis would reveal their presence. Certainly standing a mile away (or even a few inches for that matter) with a box of suspect electronics, and a detector tube made from plumbing fitments originating the local hardware store, is IMHO ludicrous in the extreme.

[J_Player]

If there are metal ions in the surface soil it is highly unlikely that these would be gold ions.

I just finished reading over 50 reports on mining exploration where they claim they have been finding gold ions at the surface soil above buried gold ores. According to Dr. Mark Fedikow, exploration geochemist and mineral deposits geologist, approximately 1000 sample sites have been analyzed using the mobile metal ion process (MMI) to locate gold and other mineral deposits since 1993 in over 30 countries. Dr. fedikow says the MMI technique of chemical and electronic analysis results in distinctive anomalies directly over mineralized zones. The MMI sampling has been successful for finding metal ions in the surface soil from Cu, Pb, Zn Cd, Ni, Co, Pd, Au, Ag, Cr, Nb, and Mg. A Western Australian government research team discovered that metal ions move upward in a vertical column in 1990, and the resulting technology to locate these mineral deposits came from a private Australian company, MMI Technology, who measures ions in the parts per billion and sub-parts per billion range in surface soil.

See the MMI Technology website here: http://www.mmigeochem.com/frwelcome.htm

See nearly 300,000 web pages showing gold ions being found in surface soil with MMI techniques here: http://www.google.com/search?q=mmi+gold&hl=en&start=10&sa=N


In addition to the MMI technology, There are over a million reports on microbes that convert gold to ions, and other microbes that convert gold ions to gold metal in the soil. These include much larger concentrations of gold ions, enough to precipitate gold nuggets.

See these reports showing how microbes convert gold to ions, and other microbes that convert gold ions to gold metal in the soil:

Microbes manufacture gold nuggets: http://www.geotimes.org/sept06/NN_Microbes.html

Electron micrographs of microbes moving gold associated with Au(III) reduction:
http://aem.asm.org/cgi/reprint/67/7/3275.pdf

Microbes convert dissolved gold into solid metallic gold:
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...0_goldbug.html

http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/stories/s1032376.htm

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0802103513.htm

Report says scientists have ascertained the microbe’s process converts approximately 1% of exposed gold per year.
http://sandersresearch.com/index.php...1&Ite mid=102

http://www.ornl.gov/info/ornlreview/rev32_3/amazing.htm
http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/20...15_283189.html

You will find over a million reports on microbes that eat and ionize gold and other metals if you google for "gold microbe": http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q...be&btnG=Search


I can understand your comments that it would be extremely difficult to use electronic methods to locate ions in the soil at long distances, but I wonder about your comments concerning gold ions in the soil:

We have heard your comment suggesting we must suspend our belief to speculate these gold ions exist in the soil. Does this mean we should not believe any of these 1 million + reports where scientists show us their measurements and electron micrographs of microbes with gold ions in the soil? Should we believe the pictures below are not really metallic gold formed from microbes precipitating metallic gold from gold ions in the soil?

Best wishes,
J_P

[Qiaozhi]

MMI Technology, who measures ions in the parts per billion and sub-parts per billion range in surface soil.
My point was that any gold ions that may be present in the soil would be in miniscule quantities . This is confirmed by your quote. I would bet that even MMI Technology are not detecting these ions outside the lab.
The sort of gold ions you are describing are most likely the soluble form of gold encountered in mining, whereas the Mineoro videos specifically show instances where single coins are being recovered. So how many gold ions do you think exist in the soil above a single coin? Since the coin is not made from soluble gold, I would expect the answer to be a very round number.
Whether gold ions are lurking under the soil in a few parts per billion or not, does not prove that LRLs are a viable method for gold detection.

[Seden]

Qiaozhi,

True the ions are difficult to detect but any metallic gold can become soluble if the surrounding soil has the right combination of natural chemicals (oxides or acids).

Now all's we have to do is find someone on this forum who is more clever than all the PHD's involved in Spectography.


Randy

[J_Player]

The sort of gold ions you are describing are most likely the soluble form of gold encountered in mining

Errr... Qiaozhi,

I understand your point about that gold ions may exist in miniscule quantities. This is exactly what the researchers have discovered. My question is about your reference to "soluble form of gold".

What sort of "soluble form of gold" are you referring to? There are over a million web pages that reference metallic gold that leaches into the soil as gold ions. This metallic gold they document is usually alloyed with small amounts of silver and copper and other trace minerals, and is the same gold as you find in nuggets, and similar to jewelry alloys. I really don't see a large difference between an 18k gold ring that was buried 200 years ago and a gold nugget that has been in the soil for a million years. At least not if they are in the same soil with similar soil chemistry working on them.

According to these reports on microbes converting metallic gold to gold ions, and reports of other microbes converting gold ions to metallic gold, the only soluble form of gold in the process appears when microbes secrete cyanide and other organic acids and sulfur complexes that can bind the gold ions which were originally brought into solution by microbes. These researchers have declared that microbes and local chemicals reagents in the soil are responsible for ionizing and dissolving metallic gold, and ultimately causing gold ions to appear at the surface soil. They do not make reference to soluble primary gold deposits, they refer to metallic gold alloyed with small amounts of other metals.

Please explain your alternate "most likely the soluble form of gold encountered in mining" that is responsible for finding trace amounts of gold ions in the surface soil. When you say this is the most likely form, does this alternate "soluble form of gold" exist in sufficient amounts to comprise a large percentage of the ions that are being measured by the MMI process to locate buried metallic gold deposits?

Best wishes,
J_P

[Qiaozhi]

IMHO I think this thread is veering way off course. Just stop for a moment and think about gold ions. This is simply an atom of gold with one or electrons missing (positively charged) or one or more electrons added (negatively charged). Gold is a highly dense material and therefore relatively heavy. How many gold ions do you think are actually floating around in the atmosphere just waiting to be sucked into a Mineoro detector? I would hazard a guess that it's a very very small number. Now let's assume that a gold coin that fell from someone's pocket 50 year's ago is now happily languishing just below the top soil. Do you honestly believe, that if you were to recover this coin, it would show the slightest oxidation relative to the day it was lost? Of course not. So what mechanism could possibly be used to detect this coin from say 50m away? It is simply ludicrous to think that an LRL based on the Mineoro principles would detect anything apart from random electromagnetic noise. Adding to this the concept of target discrimination from such a distance is pure fantasy.

The links that were posted as evidence of gold ions being released from longtime buried gold, in fact have very little specific references to gold. Only MMI Geochemistry are claiming to have a technique for locating gold by analysing a sample of the surface soil. Of course the technique is highly secret and not patented. :rolleyes: Apparently the mobile ions gravitate to the surface where they are loosely attached to soil particles. So (according to the MMI theory) the ions are trapped in the surface soil. Which hardly supports the Mineoro concept that these heavy ions leave the surface and float off into the atmosphere. In fact they quote "For example a Cu, Pb, Zn base metal deposit will emit (release) Cu, Pb and Zn ions.". Hmmmm.... no gold then?? :shocked:

[J_Player]

Hi Qiaozhi,

Perhaps you misunderstood my questions. I made no mention of Mineoro or gold ions floating in the air in my last few posts. I was not asking about a gold coin dropped on the ground 50 years ago. I am asking about gold that has been deep in the ground over perhaps 200 years or longer, such as a hoard of gold jewelry that may have been buried 2 meters deep or more during the Spanish galleon period or gold ore deposits. I do not make any correlation to Mineoro or it's ability to find anything. I am only talking about the transport of metallic gold by means of dissolution and movement in the soil, as has been suggested in over a million web page reports.

The links that were posted as evidence of gold ions being released from longtime buried gold, in fact have very little specific references to gold.

I provided two references. One is for nearly 300,000 web page reports of the MMI process giving good results in locating long time buried gold and other ores with chemical and electronic instrument methods of measuring gold and other metal ionization at the surface. The other reference is for over a million web page reports of geotechnical scientists and technicians documenting a large array of microbes transporting gold from deep beneath the soil. These reports have been ongoing for several decades, showing that much more than trace amounts gold and other metals are ionized and sometimes reconstituted as metal in the soil in different locations from where it originally existed.

In fact they quote "For example a Cu, Pb, Zn base metal deposit will emit (release) Cu, Pb and Zn ions.". Hmmmm.... no gold then??

If you read any of the reports of 300,000 links, you will find all of sites showing MMI testing are about testing for gold ions. Apparently you did not read many of the 300,000 reports. There are thousands of reports of measuring gold ions from surface soil using MMI methods, and gold mines in over 30 countries paying to have these tests performed. Take another look at these links: http://www.google.com/search?q=mmi+gold&hl=en&start=0&sa=N

Is there some reason you are avoiding answering my questions and trying to steer the discussion to Mineoro?

Nowhere in these reports have I found any reference to Mineoro or metal ions hovering in a cloud in the air above a buried mass of metal or ore. And the reports in my second reference only describe metals that are digested and chemically altered by microbes in the ground. These reports describe how metals can be ionized, moved and concentrated by microbes. They are not reports about long range locating machines. They are reports about geophysics and geotechnology to measure the discoveries they found. They are also reports about novel methods to utilize these microbes to advantage in dealing with processing ores, waste cleanup and contamination control.

What I initially asked was your opinion about the existence of these ions in the soil and the microbes creating gold nuggets as claimed by those reports I referenced. While I did not list each website, I gave a google link that lists over a million reports. Surely you found more than a few reports showing electron micrographs of the gold atoms inside microbe bodies and gold deposited as metal by microbes. I will be happy to provide a long list of pages of specific research showing longtime buried gold being ionized and/or reconstituted as metal if you are unable to find them at this search link: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=gold+ions+ore+microbe+soil&btnG=Search

The questions I asked were not about building an LRL based on the principles of Mineoro. They were about the chemistry and methods of gold metal and ions moving in the soil as described in the research reports, and about the possibility of constructing an electronic instrument to sense these ions from over 20 feet distance. The method of using Mineoro principles was not included in my questions or in any of the links I provided.

The only reason I asked you these questions is because you have a strong background in physics and electronics. Is it possible to answer the questions about these reports without ignoring the overwhelming body of evidence of large scale gold-processing microbes, the 2-decade long history of measuring gold ion anomalies in the surface soil to locate gold deposits, and without changing the topic to Mineoro or their theories?

Best wishes,
J_P

[Qiaozhi]

They are not reports about long range locating machines. They are reports about geophysics and geotechnology to measure the discoveries they found. They are also reports about novel methods to utilize these microbes to advantage in dealing with processing ores, waste cleanup and contamination control. J_P
OK - firstly I'm not a chemist. My reason for querying this line of discussion is because this is the Remote Sensing forum, and I'm not sure whether this has any relevence to LRLs. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought this whole subject of gold ions was triggered by the very idea of longtime gold emitting gold ions into the atmosphere, and that these gold ions could be detected and characterized from a distance of a mile or even more. Whether trace elements of gold are detectable in lab tests involving samples of top soil have any merit, I am not qualified to comment. I know someone who is a distinguished chemist, and I will certainly ask him when I next have the opportunity.

[J_Player]

Hi Qiaozhi,

Apparently you have not read Carl's intro post in this forum, or the web pages I posted as a reference to gold ions in the ground. Otherwise you would not be asking me to correct you if you are wrong:
My reason for querying this line of discussion is because this is the Remote Sensing forum, and I'm not sure whether this has any relevence to LRLs. Correct me if I'm wrong, but...
If you read Carl's intro post at the top of the Remote Sensing forum, you will find it is not an LRL forum, but includes scientifically viable methods as well as the less scientific method of "long-range locating"
The term "remote sensing" is used to describe scientifically viable methods of detecting geophysical anomalies from a distance. It is also used to describe the less scientific method of "long-range locating", which is engulfed in controversy.

This forum is for the open discussion of either method. ...

So how do ions and gold-eating microbes have anything to do with remote sensing?
The answer quickly becomes apparent to those who read the reports in the links I posted. After reading these reports, you will be able to see how scientists have been successful in locating gold and other ores quite some distance from the locations they take the samples. In these reports you will see they are locating buried gold more than a few meters depth. Many of the gold mines where MMI surveys are made are finding gold over 2000 feet deep in locations indicated by these gold ion anomalies at the surface. The majority of the gold is found at much shallower depths. But all the testing with the MMI method is capable of finding gold at depths greater than any conventional metal detector could. The gold-digesting microbes are also marking spots where there is gold out of the reach of conventional metal detectors. Thus, these are classified as a "remote sensing methods".

I am at fault for not considering you are not a chemist, and therefore not qualified to make comments on any of this research. Your distinguished chemist friend's comments may prove helpful. In the meantime I suppose we must confine this discussion to laymen in geochemistry and electronics as you see posting above.

Thank you for your input, and best wishes,
J_P

[Nihil Roma Maius]

Also men eat metals. LooK!!! In this moment the man is eating the main food. In the table, some candy-iron, nail-wine and other delicious things!!! Helps a good Chilean wine!!! Salute populi, Ferrodigestor te salutant!:lol:

[Qiaozhi]

Hi J_Player,

OK - you are correct. Carl's Intro says: "The term "remote sensing" is used to describe scientifically viable methods of detecting geophysical anomalies from a distance. It is also used to describe the less scientific method of "long-range locating", which is engulfed in controversy."
I guess we've spent so much time battling with the controversial side of remote sensing that I'd forgotten the original definition.
So- does anyone really know whether this stuff works or not?

[Mike(Mont)]

Anyone who doesn't think ion detection is real hasn't done any research. The government has 'em. It's not a matter if they are real, just how well they work under what conditions that they can be detected from a distance.

Heaven forbid I bring up the word "dowsing", dowsers have been able to sense ionic fields/flows. Cosmic rays, solar rays, radioactive substances have a disintegrating effect on many elements.

Somewhat off-topic, I saw a portable ion sniffer for negative/positive ions (under $200US). I think the site is http://www.negativeiongenerators.com and click ion detector or you can do a google search for ion sniffer and see some other info, too.

Why negative ions? If you can find an area with high negion concentration, sit there for twenty minutes and get charged. Many say it can increase psychic ability. If nothing else, it feels good and it might even help cure sickness, depression, etc.

[Nihil Roma Maius]

Molecular or atomic vibration, infrared and more... Hmmm, I remember all this in threads...

http://www.emporia.edu/earthsci/student/lawrence1/lawrence.htm

[J_Player]

Hi Qiaozhi,
I guess we've spent so much time battling with the controversial side of remote sensing that I'd forgotten the original definition.
So- does anyone really know whether this stuff works or not?I was actually surprised to find so much information on these methods to locate deep buried gold, and the amount of research that went into the MMI methods, as well as into the study of strange microbes transforming metals deep in the ground. I was even more surprised that nobody in this forum seems to know much about this.

Apparently there is a lot of money driving this research. In the MMI survey industry, the driving force is primarily mining exploration that expects to get a good return on their investment. Some of these mines spend over $60,000 USD for a MMI survey, and expect a return much greater. MMI methods are also used to determine the presence of certain desirable minerals in the soil for agricultural purposes, to show what kind of soil additives would be helpful.

The money driving the research into microbes is much larger. These metal-digesting microbes have been found in rock matrix over 2 miles deep within mines. There is a good deal of support from mining companies all over the world. There is also a large investment into this research by government agencies who want to develop methods for waste cleanup and contamination control. They discovered certain of these microbes can process nuclear waste materials to keep them from becoming soluble, and others that can help in containing other toxic heavy metal contaminants in the soil. The real bulk of the research is about microbes that survive and thrive in environments that don't generally support life, and process these toxic materials in ways to make them environmentally safe. In the path of all this research, researchers discovered microbes that survive in toxic gold chloride and other gold complexes that are found in the soil as well as in a laboratory. The million references I found on gold-processing microbes are only a small by-product of the larger body of research.

What surprises me is that nobody in this forum has ever mentioned anything about these microbes or the mining companies who look for the presence of certain kinds of gold-digesting microbes to locate gold. This method has been going on for years.

This thread may have all started out as a joke about Mineoro's claims that gold ions hover in the air above buried gold, but it lead to a large body of research that demonstrates and documents subterranean gold processing.

It appears to me the subterranean gold ion methods used today are in their infancy. It seems that chemical and/or electronic improvements can and will be made to make better use of what the researchers have discovered. There is no fake science in these studies. It is all understandable and can be improved with real electronics and physics.

Best wishes,
J_P

[Max]

Anyone who doesn't think ion detection is real hasn't done any research. The government has 'em. It's not a matter if they are real, just how well they work under what conditions that they can be detected from a distance.

Heaven forbid I bring up the word "dowsing", dowsers have been able to sense ionic fields/flows. Cosmic rays, solar rays, radioactive substances have a disintegrating effect on many elements.

Somewhat off-topic, I saw a portable ion sniffer for negative/positive ions (under $200US). I think the site is http://www.negativeiongenerators.com and click ion detector or you can do a google search for ion sniffer and see some other info, too.

Why negative ions? If you can find an area with high negion concentration, sit there for twenty minutes and get charged. Many say it can increase psychic ability. If nothing else, it feels good and it might even help cure sickness, depression, etc.

Hi,
"Why negative ions? If you can find an area with high negion concentration, sit there for twenty minutes and get charged. Many say it can increase psychic ability. If nothing else, it feels good and it might even help cure sickness, depression, etc."

ehm... there are also GIRLS! :lol:

Kind regards,
Max

[J_Player]

ehm... there are also GIRLS! :lol:I heard girls have a remarkable ability to locate gold, long distance or short.

Best wishes,
J_P

[Qiaozhi]

In the path of all this research, researchers discovered microbes that survive in toxic gold chloride and other gold complexes that are found in the soil as well as in a laboratory.
Have a look here at the details of gold chloride -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold(III)_chloride
As you can see it is highly soluble in water.

[J_Player]

Hi Qiaozhi,

Interesting reference about the chemistry of gold chloride.

Here are some links showing studies of microbes surviving in gold chloride solutions and eating gold chloride in a lab:

Report shows metallic gold droppings left behind by microbes digesting gold chloride: http://www.geobacter.org/press/2001-07-21-economist.pdf

Here is a lab report with photo evidence of microbes transforming gold chloride to colloidal gold: http://aem.asm.org/cgi/reprint/67/7/3275.pdf

Most of the chloride compounds in that wiki reference could not exist in the ground in large amounts, but possibly in traces, in combination with other chemical reactions. In the gold chloride experiments, the foremost researcher into gold-eating microbes discovered that 90% of a single microbe specie died in the poisonous gold chloride. But the surviving 10% adapted to the toxic solution and digested the gold ions and precipitated them into gold metal that you see in the photos.The test with microbes in gold chloride in the lab demonstrated that microbes can ionize and digest gold. But the microbes acting chemically on gold in the soil are probably not involved with gold chloride as much as with other chemicals. There are several chemical processes that have been documented in different locations depending on the soil conditions. In soils with high organic content, the microbe strains that dissolve gold are mostly microbes that produce cyanide and organic acids and complexes which react with metallic gold and bind it in the complex. This complex goes into solution in the soil, and moves with the subterranean moisture. Much different microbes that live only on metallic gold surfaces are able to digest the dissolved ions and precipitate them onto the nuggets where they live. Various chemical mechanisms have been documented, but the researchers are still working to unravel the mysteries of how these processes change in different soils. Apparently the ability of microbes to adapt to their environment is an important part of the puzzle.

Here are a few pages about cyanide producing microbes that are believed to dissolve gold:

Microscopic plants and fungi Produce cyanide which is thought to have dissolved ancient gold deposits in alluvial sands:
http://books.google.com/books?id=L8Be8rprGgkC&pg=PA495&lpg=PA495&dq=microbe+gold+cyanide&source=web&ots=E9FBKen7LJ&sig=jaLBLd1JAjV9BDA5NOEGPuoR_co#PPA494,M1

30 species of microorganisms including bacteria, yeasts, actinomycetes, fungi and algae were found to accumulate gold from laboratory solutions. This abstract also describes how Pseudomonas cells can be treated to absorb and desorb gold on demand. http://www.springerlink.com/content/u142554485g84k31/

Microbes moving gold in Southern Australia by various chemical methods:
http://crcleme.org.au/NewsEvents/News/Archive/2004/AUSIMMReith.pdf

So where is this going?
My feeling is there will be much done with the chemical engineering of gold-eating microbes to help extract gold from the soil. While this may be important to large mining companies, it is of little use to us treasure hunters unless we have some scheme to cause the microbes to precipitate the gold in large scale amounts concentrated somewhere that we can harvest it.

Where does that leave us?
A more likely approach for the average treasure hunter looking for a buried target or perhaps soil with high concentration of natural gold is to consider the electrical aspects of these microbe processes.

Ground instruments?
In addition to the eating gold, microbes are often eating other metals in combination with gold. Because these microbes are causing gold to ionize as well as other metals, we see exchange and movement of electrons, much like the "ground battery" Franco has been telling us about. Is it possible there are measurable anomalies that we could recognize as a "ground battery"? Would these underground movements of electrons be measurable with existing equipment such as ground resistivity? or SIP methods? Are there ways we could modify the current tools to locate the areas where this gold-eating microbe activity is happening?

Atmospheric instruments?
Measuring the soil is only one method that occurs to me. We all know there is an electric gradient in the air above the ground that increases about 100 volts/meter, and can go as high as 300 volts/meter in the winter. Assuming clear weather conditions, we expect this to be a uniform field over flat uniform ground. But what happens if there is an area of the ground that has a concentration of metal ions due to microbal chemical reactions? Would the electric field of the atmosphere show a measurable anomaly in the air around the ground with the metal ions, or around the "ground battery" condition? Could we measure anything with a sensitive enough electronic instrument that had proper shielding?

Let the skeptics accept the real science they expect pseudoscientists to accept:
We have already discovered over a million web page reports that pretty much shatter the myth that gold does not ionize in the soil. Perhaps none of us would have believed it had not some researchers photographed these microbes and measured the gold ions they are processing. Even though the concentration of gold ions is measured in parts per billion at the surface, there are people measuring it and pinpointing gold deposits.

The question is: Are any of us as good in innovating electronic ways to locate the loot as the researchers can by using their chemicals?

Best wishes,
J_P

[FrancoItaly]

Hi All
Perhaps this instruments already exist, the Esteban' pistol or Andreas' locator, for example! They have in common a coil that it generates a transmitter magnetic field and a receiver coil that it senses some modification 1 or 2 meters near the instrument. I think that the crucial point it's an interaction between the electric field above the ground and the artficial magnetic field. As Esteban says no alien technology but old VLF metal detector technique it's sufficient for our purpose!
Tomorrow I go in ferie in Switzerland for 2 weeks and without internet possibility...
Best wishes

[Nihil Roma Maius]

Yes, Esteban is correct in this point. Metal detector can sniff at some meters object size of a coin. A good system is off-resonance type at frequency between 60 to 160 Khz. Always, here, the problem is that this system need metal buried for some years for to be detectable. IR is very but VERY GOOD. No for to measure the temp, no, as a type of antenna that collect the phenomenom, an "electric field", or directly IR emission of metals. He post many types of pistols olds and news, so is a reality. I found a small object that EVER causes problem in electronic long distance detector, look in the video that is not very insistent for the size, but there are. The object I found (several times found the same type) causes a RESONANCE or microspark, DON'T KNOW, but Esteban discover this effect he call "effect E", at 5-7 meters of the detector-system. Download video here (take with cellular, sorry quality), more than 2 Mb:
http://www.sendspace.com/file/smrfnz

More later the object.

[Nihil Roma Maius]

The object. Question that I can't answer: Why is very well detectable, independent of the size? During transmission of oscillator the frequency scape as spark in the gap an causes the good detection??? The off resonance detector is in combination secondary RF detector.

[Max]

The object. Question that I can't answer: Why is very well detectable, independent of the size? During transmission of oscillator the frequency scape as spark in the gap an causes the good detection??? The off resonance detector is in combination secondary RF detector.

Hi,
sorry but can't see anything (spark ???) but just a thing that seems a BS of a dog that suffer of colithe and eats just spinach!
Maybe is of Eugene (Popeye's dog). :lol:

Best regards,
Max

[michael]

....The object I found (several times found the same type) causes a RESONANCE or microspark, DON'T KNOW, but Esteban discover this effect he call "effect E", at 5-7 meters of the detector-system. Download video here (take with cellular, sorry quality), more than 2 Mb: http://www.sendspace.com/file/smrfnz (http://www.sendspace.com/file/smrfnz)
More later the object.Hi Nihil Roma
it was interesting, who is the guy in this demo? Esteban?
do you have more of these demos with more details e.g. excavating object and with more quality? if yes, please put for download.
meanwhile; would you please share us in all of youe experiences with LRLs and your found objects? what LRL do you use?
Regards.

[Nihil Roma Maius]

Hi,
sorry but can't see anything (spark ???) but just a thing that seems a BS of a dog that suffer of colithe and eats just spinach!
Maybe is of Eugene (Popeye's dog). :lol:


Best regards,
Max

(Here drawing with copyright.)

The same as RObert, you're a good comic maker, but RObert is best than you! Of course, you're one of the follower!

Please, go in your Tesoro thread an be workable your bad-no discriminative Bandido, you're an expert :D on it.

Wich is more important: If it comes of a BS of a dog or if can be detectable at 5-7 m, and a coin at 20-25 m? Is this your only argument?

You, RObert, Mr. Ironclad (or similar name) and other small enemies make of this forum a low-language forum.

[Nihil Roma Maius]

Is in reference to this forum or what? Do you can feel a few shane? Please, leave far the bad words.

7/30/2007, 8:06 pm. Part of the text: The insults and garbage that appear on other forums can stay there.

Here complete:

http://members5.boardhost.com/MetalDetecting/msg/1185840362.html

[Max]

Hi,
sorry but can't see anything (spark ???) but just a thing that seems a BS of a dog that suffer of colithe and eats just spinach!
Maybe is of Eugene (Popeye's dog). :lol:


Best regards,
Max

(Here drawing with copyright.)

The same as RObert, you're a good comic maker, but RObert is best than you! Of course, you're one of the follower!

Please, go in your Tesoro thread an be workable your bad-no discriminative Bandido, you're an expert :D on it.

Wich is more important: If it comes of a BS of a dog or if can be detectable at 5-7 m, and a coin at 20-25 m? Is this your only argument?

You, RObert, Mr. Ironclad (or similar name) and other small enemies make of this forum a low-language forum.

Hi,
about "(Here drawing with copyright.)" that was expired... anyway, you never posted any copyrighted material here ? That maybe could interest the Admin here, but maybe I've touched a sensitive nerve with that drawing!

"Please, go in your Tesoro thread an be workable your bad-no discriminative Bandido, you're an expert :D on it."
Of course I am. And disc is not good as I want but works, and I've found many good things with my homemade "no discriminative" bandido. :razz:
Well, I'd like having a total iron ignoring... but for now it's a dream, like with any other VLF.

"you're a good comic maker"
and you ? Read your posts. :lol:
Oh yeah, you're a Buster Keaton follower... You want appear serious!
But your theories and examples aren't less comic than my shows here.

"Wich is more important: If it comes of a BS of a dog or if can be detectable at 5-7 m, and a coin at 20-25 m? Is this your only argument? "

Coin at 20-25 m ? It was 1 mile or not ??? Now 20-25 meters only !?
Your devices couldn't find any coin, at any distance... that's the real problem.

"You, RObert, Mr. Ironclad (or similar name) and other small enemies make of this forum a low-language forum."

Oh wow! Just for a comic strip and some more dog's BS! What a sense of humor!
Problem is that those BS you're talking about cost thousand dollars... and for what ? For nothing! No science, no detection of anything but noise, nothing of nothing !

Just you can post BS here !? Have you the copyright ???
The spark, the gap, the brass... and a plumbing PIPE: recipe for mineoro!

Or for some electrified plumber.

Kind regards,
Max

[Nihil Roma Maius]

Coin at 20-25 m ? It was 1 mile or not ??? Now 20-25 meters only !?

Who tell I can detect a coin at 1 mille? You're sick, man! Mixing all, no precission, and you're of the IW!! With this "precission" you make your bad coils!!! :lol:

Problem is that those BS you're talking about cost thousand dollars... and for what ? For nothing! No science, no detection of anything but noise, nothing of nothing !

Your followers think you tell truth, but you're lying here!

If you can't build a decent coil, how can you pontificate about other thinks?:rolleyes:

[Max]

Coin at 20-25 m ? It was 1 mile or not ??? Now 20-25 meters only !?

Who tell I can detect a coin at 1 mille? You're sick, man! Mixing all, no precission, and you're of the IW!! With this "precission" you make your bad coils!!! :lol:

Problem is that those BS you're talking about cost thousand dollars... and for what ? For nothing! No science, no detection of anything but noise, nothing of nothing !

Your followers think you tell truth, but you're lying here!

If you can't build a decent coil, how can you pontificate about other thinks?:rolleyes:

Hi,
oh yeah... yeah I'm the problem here! (for you and your fake business :lol: )

my 22cm diameter DD coil on bandidoII clone detect 1eur at 30cm underground ! Bad ? Yes, I don't make good coils! Never do one!

Facts talk for me.

Oh yeah, sorry... you understand nothing of MD... just sell/ads gizmo-crappy-junky-LRL so you can get 25m !

Then appearing here to make the professor! Of what ? Of JUNK ?

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Only 25m you would like to see will be the BS level in your head... :lol:

Nothing of nothing, that's what you offer here BUT some novel and dream about fabulous long-range-detectors to keep on the business.

You're the sick here, very sick ! And all your followers and belivers.

You're a tribe of nonsense... have no scientific argumentation, have no real facts, have no proofs of nothing.
Just crappy thinking all the time, crappy advertise and monkey-business.

That's what you are. Everyone knows.

So find a good doctor or just get the money and shut your mouth. :cool:

Kind regards,
Max

[Nihil Roma Maius]

As I said, I don't sell LRL devices. Proof the place when I wrote that I sell devices. In other words, you're lying, and the people who read first time, believe that you're telling the truth. So, PROOF I need, and the others. Show me the post in where I wrote I'm a LRL seller.

If you can't prove it, then you're lying. I'm waiting.

But doctor against lies don't exist, you have not cure.

And yes, I know how build MD and the "others", and you not. This is the reason you hate me.

You detect a 1 euro coin at 30 cm? Good! Congratulations! I'm searching for more deepest IB/VLF MD, because with the old Heathkit GD-90 (built myself) I achieve the 40 cm for the size of 1 euro coin in not bad terrain, but demand very fine adjustment in the coils, you can't achieve, shure!

Tesoro and others are OK for the ground controls and more. Also I build these types and I'm not conformist with these. Now I have official schematic of deepest detectors.

Also electronic LRL detectors based on coils demands fine adjustments!

As you see, I haven't followers, I can deffend myself, OK?

* * * * * * * * *

You're a tribe of nonsense... have no scientific argumentation, have no real facts, have no proofs of nothing.
Just crappy thinking all the time, crappy advertise and monkey-business.

That's what you are. Everyone knows.

Yes, this is based in scientific method (the devices I build), yes real facts (your prejudice is since your short panorama, yes, OK?), yes there are proofs, but nobody wish to see, the worst blind is the person who don't want to see).

Who are everyone? Where is? You? Where are the others? Where is my real enemy who can shut my mouth? :rolleyes:

The %&*@! (your preferred words) is your tongue. IW MD constructor! Ha!

I repeat: If you can't prove the above, then you're lying. I'm waiting.

Do you read the post on other forum? The insults and garbage that appear on other forums can stay there.
http://members5.boardhost.com/MetalD...185840362.html

For them, is not comic drops, has another qualification.

So, make all us this forum free of insults, because also I can attack you easily in all the threads you are.

[Max]

As I said, I don't sell LRL devices. Proof the place when I wrote that I sell devices. In other words, you're lying, and the people who read first time, believe that you're telling the truth. So, PROOF I need, and the others. Show me the post in where I wrote I'm a LRL seller.

If you can't prove it, then you're lying. I'm waiting.

But doctor against lies don't exist, you have not cure.

And yes, I know how build MD and the "others", and you not. This is the reason you hate me.

You detect a 1 euro coin at 30 cm? Good! Congratulations! I'm searching for more deepest IB/VLF MD, because with the old Heathkit GD-90 (built myself) I achieve the 40 cm for the size of 1 euro coin in not bad terrain, but demand very fine adjustment in the coils, you can't achieve, shure!

Tesoro and others are OK for the ground controls and more. Also I build these types and I'm not conformist with these. Now I have official schematic of deepest detectors.

Also electronic LRL detectors based on coils demands fine adjustments!

As you see, I haven't followers, I can deffend myself, OK?

* * * * * * * * *

You're a tribe of nonsense... have no scientific argumentation, have no real facts, have no proofs of nothing.
Just crappy thinking all the time, crappy advertise and monkey-business.

That's what you are. Everyone knows.

Yes, this is based in scientific method (the devices I build), yes real facts (your prejudice is since your short panorama, yes, OK?), yes there are proofs, but nobody wish to see, the worst blind is the person who don't want to see).

Who are everyone? Where is? You? Where are the others? Where is my real enemy who can shut my mouth? :rolleyes:

The %&*@! (your preferred words) is your tongue. IW MD constructor! Ha!

I repeat: If you can't prove the above, then you're lying. I'm waiting.

Do you read the post on other forum? The insults and garbage that appear on other forums can stay there.
http://members5.boardhost.com/MetalD...185840362.html

For them, is not comic drops, has another qualification.

So, make all us this forum free of insults, because also I can attack you easily in all the threads you are.

Hi,
are you OK ? Seems you're a bit upset... ? Why ?

PROOF WHAT ? THAT "Nihil Roma Maius" SELL OR ADVERTISE LRLs ? :lol:

Use your real name if your not trying to sell fake informations here!

You support nonsense, read all your posts about spark, gaps and DETECTION OF COINS FROM 25 METERS AWAY!

You act much like Hung did before... saying that NO, you aren't in the business... YOU KNOW MANIFACTURER/INVENTOR (Damaso of Mineoro in that case, now who ?)... that you're a witness of the LRL working ?

Aren't you ???

You just use a nickname (just another) to mask your identity cause you was already pissed off of that forum by EDUCATED USERS that are tired of reading all that fake stuff YOU'D LIKE TO SELL THEM.

"And yes, I know how build MD and the "others", and you not. This is the reason you hate me."

I hate you ? No no... you're just funny for me. And that's all. Hate would mean I had bought some of these crappy LRL by you or some of your friends of the LRL-tribe here... BUT I NEVER BOUGHT ONE! :)

My friend (I've talked about) hates all of you... but not me. I found funny all this crappy world YOU IMAGINE EXIST. THE 25 METERS TOO!
YOUR ARE BETTER THAN ANY PROZAC! :razz:

"Show me the post in where I wrote I'm a LRL seller."
Oh yeah... you are just SUPPORTER ! AREN'T YOU !?
If you say "OK, I'M THE FAKE MANIFACTURER PLEASE BUY MY BS..."
the GAME ENDS! You're funny, man.

"You detect a 1 euro coin at 30 cm? Good! Congratulations! I'm searching for more deepest IB/VLF MD, because with the old Heathkit GD-90 (built myself) I achieve the 40 cm for the size of 1 euro coin in not bad terrain, but demand very fine adjustment in the coils, you can't achieve, shure!"

Oh yeah, yeah you are a master of MD! I'm the brainless ! Sure ! :rolleyes:

"Tesoro and others are OK for the ground controls and more. Also I build these types and I'm not conformist with these. Now I have official schematic of deepest detectors.

Also electronic LRL detectors based on coils demands fine adjustments!

As you see, I haven't followers, I can deffend myself, OK?"

You have followers... and need increase of number... cause if not you wouldn't post here anymore! No reason.

Keep the business on. THAT'S YOUR (AND YOUR TRIBE) GOAL.

"Yes, this is based in scientific method (the devices I build), yes real facts (your prejudice is since your short panorama, yes, OK?), yes there are proofs, but nobody wish to see, the worst blind is the person who don't want to see)."

Scientific what ??? :lol: Funny... even scientific claims now !?
There are proofs ... OK , IF YOU SAY THAT I HAVE TO TRUST YOU!
For now I see only BS and PVC PIPES.

WHY DON'T YOU WIN THE LRL CHALLENGE ?
I PROMISE I'LL EAT AN ENTIRE MINEORO IN FRONT OF CAMERA, I SWEAR, IF YOU WIN THE CHALLENGE AND GOT THE JACKPOT!

C'MON ... GIVE US THE PROOFS IF YOU ARE SO SURE OF THIS "SCIENCE".
I'M AWAITING !


"So, make all us this forum free of insults, because also I can attack you easily in all the threads you are."

INSULTS ??? Just for some comic strip ! The sensitive nerve again!

You call me liar and then I'm insulting you ??? How ???

With facts ??? With truth ???

AGAIN (so we'll see who is the lyar here):


WHY DON'T YOU WIN THE LRL CHALLENGE ?
I PROMISE I'LL EAT AN ENTIRE MINEORO IN FRONT OF CAMERA, I SWEAR, IF YOU WIN THE CHALLENGE AND GOT THE JACKPOT!

C'MON ... GIVE US THE PROOFS IF YOU ARE SO SURE OF THIS "SCIENCE".
I'M AWAITING !

Best regards,
Max

[Nihil Roma Maius]

As I said you, I'm not promoting nothing. I'm not representative of nothing or nobody.

Real name? Max is not your real name? Or yes?

You just use a nickname (just another) to mask your identity cause you was already pissed off of that forum by EDUCATED USERS that are tired of reading all that fake stuff YOU'D LIKE TO SELL THEM.

Nothing to do with me. As I'm not promoting sellers or brands. Who are the educated users that pissed off my person in this forum? Give me a name. One user is Michael. He not pissed nobody. And more a few, but nobody pissed off.

Who are part of the tribe? Do you think I'm part of an indian tribe, also? This is in your poor mind, and maybe you are racist!

Yes, I support theory, no sellers. Also, no theory of sellers. So, prove my implication.

You have followers... and need increase of number... cause if not you wouldn't post here anymore! No reason.

Where are the followers? Only persons that ask. Ah! You are scare if I can attract followers! This is the reason you want to invade all the forums, you're make-dark the understanding. So, you wish to carry followers. But no if you can't prove my implication in sales and brands. As I can't prove a workable LRL method, you can't prove that I'm impicated in busine$$.

Where is the plastic pipe I use? Yes, you're confussed :stars: .

Who provides your bad information? Are you acting alone? Maybe not.

Challenge? I have not interest in it.

The only proof I can provide are video or similars, or what is proof for you? Public complete schematic?

Of course, if you can't prove that I'm seller or promoting brands of LRL, you'll become in a BIG LIAR. Here and in other threads.

[Max]

As I said you, I'm not promoting nothing. I'm not representative of nothing or nobody.

Real name? Max is not your real name? Or yes?

You just use a nickname (just another) to mask your identity cause you was already pissed off of that forum by EDUCATED USERS that are tired of reading all that fake stuff YOU'D LIKE TO SELL THEM.

Nothing to do with me. As I'm not promoting sellers or brands. Who are the educated users that pissed off my person in this forum? Give me a name. One user is Michael. He not pissed nobody. And more a few, but nobody pissed off.

Who are part of the tribe? Do you think I'm part of an indian tribe, also? This is in your poor mind, and maybe you are racist!

Yes, I support theory, no sellers. Also, no theory of sellers. So, prove my implication.

You have followers... and need increase of number... cause if not you wouldn't post here anymore! No reason.

Where are the followers? Only persons that ask. Ah! You are scare if I can attract followers! This is the reason you want to invade all the forums, you're make-dark the understanding. So, you wish to carry followers. But no if you can't prove my implication in sales and brands. As I can't prove a workable LRL method, you can't prove that I'm impicated in busine$$.

Where is the plastic pipe I use? Yes, you're confussed :stars: .

Who provides your bad information? Are you acting alone? Maybe not.

Challenge? I have not interest in it.

The only proof I can provide are video or similars, or what is proof for you? Public complete schematic?

Of course, if you can't prove that I'm seller or promoting brands of LRL, you'll become in a BIG LIAR. Here and in other threads.

Hi,
you wrote on GSabre thread:

"(And Max, I don't sell any LRL detectors. Also, I'm not the person who detect a gold medal at 700-800 m with electronic LRL. I was a witness!:razz: )."

So you are a "witness" (like HUNG), and support LRL-fakes, and know people that makes that LRL stuff and make such demonstration.

You are a supporter of fake claims here :

YOU WROTE THIS:

"
Yes, Esteban is correct in this point. Metal detector can sniff at some meters object size of a coin. A good system is off-resonance type at frequency between 60 to 160 Khz. Always, here, the problem is that this system need metal buried for some years for to be detectable. IR is very but VERY GOOD. No for to measure the temp, no, as a type of antenna that collect the phenomenom, an "electric field", or directly IR emission of metals. He post many types of pistols olds and news, so is a reality. I found a small object that EVER causes problem in electronic long distance detector, look in the video that is not very insistent for the size, but there are. The object I found (several times found the same type) causes a RESONANCE or microspark, DON'T KNOW, but Esteban discover this effect he call "effect E", at 5-7 meters of the detector-system. Download video here (take with cellular, sorry quality), more than 2 Mb:
http://www.sendspace.com/file/smrfnz

More later the object."

EFFECT E ? EXPLAIN THAT EFFECT E IF YOU KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT!

also you wrote:

"Wich is more important: If it comes of a BS of a dog or if can be detectable at 5-7 m, and a coin at 20-25 m? Is this your only argument? ""

A coin detectable at 25 meters: SO EXPLAIN WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT.

"Maybe the model or design is different but some devices by independent experimenters works great! Looks different but also works! Awake!!! If you can modificate a car, also you can modificate a discriminative 20 Khz MD for medium range!"

A car is like a Metal Detector: SO EXPLAIN WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT.

ONLY BS. THAT'S WHAT YOU OFFER HERE. EVERYONE CAN SEE.

About the "LRL-tribe", racism have nothing to do with my definition:
LRL-tribe stays for a group of people here that share interests in this LRL "industry", and you are, without any doubt, one of those.
Now with few or not at all credits... and so you need another nickname, mr.
Wilson VLF 710.

OLD GAMES, OLD PLAYERS as I've already said.

"Challenge? I have not interest in it."

Oh yeah, yeah

seems nobody has... or maybe CAUSE NOBODY COULD FIND NOTHING WITH THAT CRAPPY LRL.

No interest, yeah... BUT you have interest in filling the threads of fake claims. :rolleyes:

LRL = TOTAL NONSENSE AND BIG MONKEY BUSINESS.

That's all.

Kind regards,
Max

[Leto]

Wish I had the time to read these LRL threads more often.

Max better to stop this >Don Quijote< endeavour, this topic has nothing practical to offer..

Nihil Roma Maius can you give us a block-diagram or shematic of this Induction Balance Long Range Detector? Or just words?? As written (I belive by Esteban) Rx/Tx coils should be adjusted in pico Farrad range? This is all I know.

Nihil from where idea for your nickname - do you also have same old latin textbook..

Alme sol, ... possis nihil urbe Roma visere maius "Horatius"

[Nihil Roma Maius]

"(And Max, I don't sell any LRL detectors. Also, I'm not the person who detect a gold medal at 700-800 m with electronic LRL. I was a witness!:razz: )."


Yes conical coil transmitter in 2 Mhz. AM receiver modificated. Nothing to do with Mineoro. Was many years ago.

YOU WROTE THIS: etc., bla bla.

And what to do with Mineoro and brands?

Is easy to detect in distance 25 and more meters a single coin buried for long time at normal depth. The oscillator transmit via the coil and the RF sensor sniff –and also the coil– microvariations in frequency. You can show this minivariations via audio. The frequency sended by oscillator is like a beam.

I don't said that a car is like a MD. I said: "If you can modificate a car, also you can modificate a discriminative 20 Khz MD for medium range!"

Yes, I found many items with my electronic LRLs.

The worst enemy of the science is skepticism. Skepticism is not only a doubdt-position. It is a pedestal from the one that looks with disdain. I said.

The major part here thinks that they're helping the science with extreme skepticism. Think in the future. Who is going to recognize his mistake?

[Nihil Roma Maius]

Leto

I'll explain. Please, patience.

My latin text for to study in the college was "Nihil Roma Maius".

Roma gove to the world all the civilizated laws we used today. The USA is based in Roman structure. Roma fell down the year 476. USA born in 1776, exactly 1,300 years...

[Qiaozhi]

Come on guys! Stop bickering. :nono:

Remember the words of our adminstrator:

"This forum is for the open discussion of either method. Because LRL-oriented forums can quickly degrade into personal conflicts, this forum will be strictly controlled. Rules are still simple:

You must be a registered user to post here. Guests may read.
Be polite. Name calling will get you banned quickly.
Be factual. If you make an extraordinary claim, be prepared to get challenged.In general, try not to take differences of opinions personally.

Postings considered to be inflammatory can be reported to Admin by clicking the little red triangle icon at the top of each post. Please use this only when absolutely necessary... I would like to keep this forum as open as possible, and do not care to mediate every conversation."

Time to kiss and make friends - :shocked: - or perhaps just a group hug. :D

[J_Player]

Hi Qiaozhi,

Behind all this pissing contest, there was some real science presented in the LRL forum. Have you formed any opinions or ideas yet about ions or microbes in the soil?

This research has been around for a long time, but not many people made any connection to locating treasures except some mining companies. Maybe it is not possible for hobbyists to develop any electronics that are truly effective in detecting these subterranean ion activities. Any ideas?

Best wishes,
J_P

[Dell Winders]

Who needs Electronics? :lol:

http://www.treasureamerica.com/photo/dellrod.jpg

No Batteries, No electronics, weighs 4 1/2 ozs. Discriminates to, and detects Gold only at ranges to 100 yards. That's a fact!

NOT FOR SALE! Dell

[Esteban]

Hello all the guys.


As Qiaozhi wrote, all us wish calm, good spirit for to go ahead.

Regards

Esteban

[J_Player]

Who needs Electronics?

The majority of people who have ever tried a bent rod style LRL and discovered they did not locate treasure would like an electronic locator that works.

This majority of people are tired of hearing excuses like "interference, sunspots, solar flares, deteriorated conditions, can’t differentiate between a speck and a ton", and other excuses why the bent rod equipment didn't work.

This majority of people are tired of wishing they could have their money back for instruments that are unable to show them where treasure is after months of practicing and trying every method suggested by the manufacturer.

This majority of people would be happy to use a real electronic instrument that locates the treasure without having some LRL manufacturer tell them that they are just too stupid to figure out how to use the bent rod style locator.

These majority of people would be happy to use an electronic locator that works after watching victims of LRL sales waste months searching in vain and finding nothing except gravity.

Shall I continue with further details?

Best wishes,
J_P

[Max]

Hi Qiaozhi,

Behind all this pissing contest, there was some real science presented in the LRL forum. Have you formed any opinions or ideas yet about ions or microbes in the soil?

This research has been around for a long time, but not many people made any connection to locating treasures except some mining companies. Maybe it is not possible for hobbyists to develop any electronics that are truly effective in detecting these subterranean ion activities. Any ideas?

Best wishes,
J_P

Hi JP,
you know I totally agree on microbes and gold ions generation in soil due e.g. to chemical...

don't think I'm talking of the whole context as fake. I'm not.

But I want to indicate where real fakes that are here...

Just this.

All the scientific points of view are welcome to me.
I'm open mind person, even if a bit critic vs some manifacturers here... and their supporters.

Kind regards,
Max

[Max]

Hello all the guys.


As Qiaozhi wrote, all us wish calm, good spirit for to go ahead.

Regards

Esteban

Hi,
Esteban, ok ok
maybe I've a "bit" exagerated with my critics here...
sorry if someone feels bad about that.

Fact is that I'm tired of reading all the same stuff... about spark-gaps and some other funny things that are tuot as TRUTH, but aren't, couldn't be.

I think you are a seriuos person... so why you support such theories too???

(but what's that stuff you holds ???)

Kind regards,
Max

[J_Player]

Why would a serious person support theories of electronic locating? Maybe it has something to do with ions in the soil.

Metal ions in the soil = electricity
When we have a chemical reaction involving metals, we usually see an electrical consequence. Consider the case of a battery. A chemical reaction inside the battery results in a voltage produced at the terminals of the battery. The voltage wants electrons to flow to the opposite terminal of the battery in order to allow the chemical reaction to continue and reach an equilibrium where the battery is fully discharged and has no more driving force to push electrons.

The chemical action on metals beneath the ground also causes an electrical consequence. But metals under the ground are not in the same condition as metals inside a battery. These metals have no terminals designed to collect the electrons and feed them toward an opposite terminal for purposes of harnessing electricity. Metals in the ground that form ions due to chemical action are at the mercy of the ground environment for flow of electricity. In the ground, ions in solution can move with the moisture in the ground, and can react chemically with the local salts and other constituents of the electrolyte in the soil. Because this "ground battery" condition is not optimized for producing power, we can expect a very small current flow, and depending on what metal has ionized, we can expect a very small amount of ions dissolved in the soil. These are scientific facts, as reported by reesearchers who observed these phenomenon happening deep in the ground.

Gold ions are usually fewer than other metal ions
As long as there are chemicals in the ground that can act on gold and other metals, these metals will continue to corrode and dissolve into the soil in order to reach a chemical and electrical equilibrium. For some metals this can be relatively fast. Metals like iron, silver, and aluminum can dissolve relatively fast in a corrosive environment. But when we look at metals like gold and platinum, ordinary chemical reagents don't have much of a corrosive effect, and we see that microbes must excrete traces of cyanide and other chemicals to have any effect at all. It is the presence of these trace chemicals that allows trace amounts of noble metals to become soluble ions.

Soil ions are in nano-amounts and cause nano-current flows
All of this electrical activity under the ground happens in small amounts that are hard to measure. Further, if we wanted to measure the current from gold ions, a simple nano-ammeter probe in the soil would not tell us if we were measuring gold ions or nearby silver ions, or any other metal that was forming ions in the vicinity. It would not tell us if there were other chemical reactions happening in the soil that were causing a current flow. We could use logic to reason that an area contains no measurable groud currents except in one location, therefore it is likely there is some metal buried in that location. If we are lucky, maybe we find a treasure there, or maybe an old horse shoe.

Does the electric field of the atmosphere react?
Another electrical consequence of ions in the ground is the reaction of the static field of the atmosphere. There is a 100v/meter electric field at the surface of the earth. The total current flow leaking through the atmosphere on earth is about 2000 amps. Only a tiny portion of this current is located in any small plot of land. Thus we are looking at a high voltage/low current field at the surface of the earth. Now keep in mind, we are looking at a fairly uniform field in the air where the air is the insulator for the current to leak through, and the negative terminal is the earth. Do you suppose there are any physical anomalies that could influence the current flow or the shape of this field? Do you suppose an area of ionized soil surrounded by non-ionized soil would be more conductive, and allow more atmospheric current to leak toward the ionized area?

Small signals require special designs
Does this give you some ideas why people like Esteban construct electronic devices to locate anomalies that some consider to be static detectors? Does this high voltage/low current flow of atmospheric electricity bring any ideas to mind why you would try a small Tesla coil to transmit/receive rather than using simple battery voltage?

Is the direct approach the best?
If a person is of a simple mind, he might look to build a simple electric field anomaly detector, which might tell him the location where the atmospheric field is changed. If a more sophisticated experimenter built a device that combined chemical or microbe sampling with an electric field detector, he would have much better success at locating desireable targets. The problem with soil samples is the time and precision involved. Maybe somebody will figure a way to make this simpler. But for now, nobody has come up with a simple method of measuring parts per billion of gold, or to quickly identify gold-eating microbes with their treasure hunting machines.

Could indirect methods work better?
But what about other physical phenomenon that could be measured? Have we ever considered that there are quite a few more secondary phenomenon that are measurable as a result of buried metal locations? Is it possible that the best instruments utilize one or more of the secondary phenomenon in order to function?

Look at the way astronomers identify the presence of different elements on distant stars. They don't take physical samples or use metal detectors. They measure secondary phenomenon associated with the elements that can be reliably used to identify them. The same is true for geo-science instruments. Geologists use an array of instruments to identify what's beneath the ground from echo-imaging to induced polarization. While these methods may not be applicable to the problem of constructing an electronic machine to locate buried treasure at long distance, the concept of looking beyond a direct measurement could be very useful.

What to measure?
In addition to the earth's static field that could be influenced by local hot spots of metal ions in the soil, there are energies from deep in the earth and from space that cause nuclear changes passing through the same soil, and there is all kinds of radio noise from natural and man made sources in the air that is influenced by the conductivity of the atmosphere. There are also other secondary phenomenon that may be beyond the capabilities of the average experimenter in this forum.

The information I put in this post could suggest at least five approaches to experimenting with new electronic methods to locate a buried target. If we are experimenters who can only build electronic circuits per known schematic designs, then there is no hope to develop a new method. But for those electronic experimenters with some vision and understanding of the real science involved in parts per billion concentrations of ions in the soil, the technology is available today to tap into the real signals that point to the treasure.

Best wishes,
J_P

[Nihil Roma Maius]

J_Player

You're RIGHT!

Secondary phenomenom is the key. Sensitive electrometers demands a kind of shielding or own "atmosphere" as in the old glass vacuum tube.

Also can helps preionized gold. Smoke detectors with Americium 241 can be usable.

How appears gold in nuclear reactor, the modern Alchemy:

http://www.chemsoc.org/ExemplarChem/entries/2002/crabb/modern.html

[Dell Winders]

the technology is available today to tap into the real signals that point to the treasure.


That's so true.

I don't know what it takes to get Scientific pretenders to do field research and learn that. "What has already been done, is an established fact and is repeatable under the same conditions. Dell

[Geo]

Hello all the guys.


As Qiaozhi wrote, all us wish calm, good spirit for to go ahead.

Regards

Esteban

Welcome Esteban

Best Regards

[Esteban]

Hi Geo.

Thanks very much. But, can't return. Maybe if the people participate seriously here.

Nihil Roma said the truth about patent and design, but this is not international. So, is very difficult to show. Include, TV demonstration exist about electronic LRL.

Some people must be appart his clown pics, because they can convert in one of this.

TV demonstration:

[Rudy]

X

[Rudy]

Who needs Electronics? :lol:

http://www.treasureamerica.com/photo/dellrod.jpg

No Batteries, No electronics, weighs 4 1/2 ozs. Discriminates to, and detects Gold only at ranges to 100 yards. That's a fact!

NOT FOR SALE! Dell

Looks like the guts of a paint roller.

[Dell Winders]

Looks like the guts of a paint roller.

Looks have ceartainly proven to be confusing to the Scientific pretenders on this forum. :)

Carl, would probably look at it and call it a dowsing device. He calls anything beyond his limited knowledge of physics a dowsing device, and therefore by assumption, and appearances alone he tries to decieve his loyal followers and the public by authoritively proclaiming Dowsing devices don't work, so this device can't work either.

O.K. I know about Carl, he's been barking up my tail for years with false allegations. Let's see how smart the rest of you think you are? :rolleyes:

Is the device in the photo I posted a Dowsing device and it will not discriminate to Gold only, any better than a person chance guessing the type of a buried target

OR, it is NOT a dowsing device and it does really discriminate to Gold only from a distance and works within the laws of physics and based on Scientific principles as I claim it to be?? Dell

[Max]

Hi Geo.

Thanks very much. But, can't return. Maybe if the people participate seriously here.

Nihil Roma said the truth about patent and design, but this is not international. So, is very difficult to show. Include, TV demonstration exist about electronic LRL.

Some people must be appart his clown pics, because they can convert in one of this.

TV demonstration:

Hi Esteban,
why do you feel so irritate of my stupid shows !?

Just jokes, but they aren't important.

What's important is understand if there are fake claims here.

Can you can detect a coin on surface soil from meters away using a metal detector ?

Demonstrate it!

You said that patent/design aren't international, ok. I understand.
(well the inventor could also ask for international patent if it's worth... but
anyway)

But what do you offer to confirm Nihil claims ? Just another funny picture here...

Me too can bring a microphone on and hold in my hand a box with some radio antenna... and then ? These are the facts, my friend ?

You'll gain credit here not posting that pictures (even if funny) but posting facts, like your friend Nihil.

Kind regards,
Max

[Nihil Roma Maius]

Man, you're confused. What is proof? If you post your detector with you, I can say: this is not proof, you make a scenification, tricks.

[Qiaozhi]

Who needs Electronics? :lol:

http://www.treasureamerica.com/photo/dellrod.jpg

No Batteries, No electronics, weighs 4 1/2 ozs. Discriminates to, and detects Gold only at ranges to 100 yards. That's a fact!

NOT FOR SALE! Dell
How anyone could take this seriously is just amazing. :???:
There's enough subject matter here for a thesis in psychology.

No batteries, no electronics ... no brain!
Get real.

[Max]

Man, you're confused. What is proof? If you post your detector with you, I can say: this is not proof, you make a scenification, tricks.

Hi,
I'm confused, sure! :lol:

As I said, I can post tons of fake pictures like yours here... but why I have to ?

That picture above means just one thing:

NOTHING OF NOTHING.

But why if I ask Esteban you answer for him ? That's funny man.
Why when I challenge you, Esteban answer ?

Give us facts and I'll belive what you said.

When I claim my coil could get a coin at few (really few) cms more than an original Tesoro's coil I say something that everyone, with a bit of patience, tools, some wire and goodwill can test using the informations I've provided.

Test yourself if don't belive words. Would cost you some (2hours for me) work and a bit of cheapy stuff !

But when you claim YOU CAN DETECT A COIN ON SURFACE, USING A METAL DETECTOR, FROM METERS AWAY

than give no informations, no patents (oh yeah there are... but aren't international ! WHY ?), no documentation, no model/brand refs, anything good to test ourself and see with our eyes if what you're talking about is truth of just a novel...

DO YOU THINK YOU GAIN CREDIT HERE ?
WHY ME OR OTHERS HAVE TO TRUST YOU ?
SAME FOR ESTEBAN.
SAME FOR HUNG.
SAME FOR DELL.
SAME FOR ANYONE ACTING SAME WAY.

I don't want be polemic here, say everytime your are a joker or clown...
that you belong to a LRL-clan or LRL-tribe... of nonsense.
Not my intention, belive me.

But what have I think ?

Kind regards,
Max

[J_Player]

More details to consider if you want to build a real LRL

We recently learned there are trace amounts of ions in the ground dissolved from various metals including gold, platinum and other treasures. We discovered that reseachers found there is a vertical column of ionized soil that travels from the buried metal to the surface soil, where the metal ions finally become bound with chemicals that de-ionize them. While this ion concentration is in the parts per billion, technicians are able to measure the anomalies from the surface and pinpoint the locations where there is gold or other ores under the ground.

We also know there is a 100v/m electric field in the air that can be expected to show faint anomalies in the vicinity of any soil that has metal ions in it, among other soil variations. Does this describe enough physical characteristics of buried gold to suggest a method of building an electronic long range locator? Many have tried, but complain about extreme unreliability measuring static fields. So what hope is there to locate the hidden gold under the ground from long range?

The answer lies in more knowledge of the details of the physics and electrical dynamics of buried metals. So far we looked at ions in the soil and the electric field in the air. But what else is going on with this electric field and buried metals? What else is happening that might produce some signal we can measure?

Atmospheric current anomalies
First, consider we have 2000 amps leaking from the atmosphere to the earth. Roughly half of this current leaks through thunderstorms in the form of lightning, and is not available as a uniform leakage through the atmosphere. This leaves only about 1000 amps leaking through the earth's fair weather skies. A quick calculation shows that this amounts to about 2 microamps per km², not much current. Now this current is being forced straight down by the electric field generated high in the atmosphere, but it is influenced by the earth's magnetic field. Thus, this current does not flow down in a straight line. The magnetic field distorts the path of this current flow. In fact, researchers discovered the majority of the current is leaking through the atmosphere near the north and south magnetic poles, with a lesser amount near the equator. This research would suggest that any instruments designed to measure anomalies of the current leaking from the sky will have a much weaker signal to measure in locations away from the magnetic poles of the earth. But this is a generalization. Much more precise values can be found by consulting an electron density map of the earth's lower atmosphere.

Electric field strength variations
To further complicate this current density, the electric field strength changes throughout the day as well as changing due to solar influences and magnetic storms. The electric field exists due to a difference in charge of the ionosphere and the earth. The ionosphere is charged mostly from "solar wind". But throughout the day, there are different space energies that contribute to different regions of the atmosphere's electric charge. We find that on an average, the minimum electric field is found about 4:00am, and the maximum comes at about 7:00pm. But there are big deviations from this average depending on what part of the world you live. Charts showing the daily electric field fluctuations in Asia, Africa, and North America bear no resemblance to to each other except they all have a daily cycle.

Near-surface ion generators
The planetary boundary layer is the first few kilometers above the surface of the ground. This boundary layer is charged mostly by cosmic rays. But near the surface there is also some ionization by decays of natural gases emanating from the soil surface and by radiation emitted directly from the surface. This ionization from radioactive sources depends on the soil and geological structure as well as the meteorological dispersal rate. This boundary layer ionization decreases rapidly with altitude, and becomes less than the cosmic ray contribution at 1 km altitude.

Other sources of near-surface ionization come from mists and aerosols from waterfalls and ocean waves, man made sprays, combustion processes, lightning, point discharge or corona discharge, and friction from dust, snow or volcanic ejections. If you want to measure ionization, consider these sources that will distort your measurement of the ions in the air. This can help explain why the ion detectors show different measurements near a city or a beach than in the mountains.

Troposphere layer ionization
The troposphere layer is more complicated. This is the layer where trace air gases exist in abundance. Clouds in the troposphere act as a sink for small ions and will alter the distribution of ions. Clouds can also create a large decrease in local conductivity of the atmosphere, thus changing the electric field that you try to measure on the ground. Some clouds are also able to move large masses of ions through convection currents within them.
As we increase in altitude to the stratosphere (up to 50km), we see the main source of ionization is from cosmic rays. This is the altitude where sunspots and solar flares can reduce the cosmic ray influence by as much as 50%. These solar effects can last for hours to days. The degree of cosmic ray influence also depends on the geomagnetic latitude. Researchers also found that within the lower part of the troposphere, mountain peaks play a role in current density. Because they are closer to the source of the charge, they tend to collect more of the current from the sky than a section of land at sea level.

Mesosphere ionization
The mesosphere (50-85 km) is where ultraviolet light ionizes nitric oxide during daylight hours. Oxygen is also photo ionized in smaller amounts, along with small amounts of solar X-ray ionization. When we look above 80 km altitude, we see free electrons can exist, where mostly nitrogen and oxygen ions exist below. These free electrons are highly mobile, and make this a very conductive layer.

As we look higher than 85 km, we find extreme ultraviolet radiation from the sun is ionizing nitrogen and oxygen. This is where we see the biggest influence of solar sunspots from the 11 year cycle and the 27 day rotation of the sun, and this is thought to be the most powerful source of charging the atmosphere around the earth. We find that auroral precipitation is responsible for large variations in ion and electron densities at higher latitudes.

Is this starting to sound like rocket science? This was just a brief overview of the basics of the atmospheric electric field. There are many other intricate mechanisms that complicate these processes. All these mechanisms should be considered when designing an electronic long range locator. For people who want to measure anomalies of the electric field in the air above buried metal, you cannot ignore the variations in electric field caused by the mechanisms of the sun and other space energies. The relative charge of the air will vary depending on the solar activity, the weather, dust and waves, the geology of the local ground, the time of day etc, etc. Remember, the metal ions found in the ground were measured in the parts per billion and less. Consider the signal to noise ratio of any instrument that must measure electric field anomalies in the air above this trace of metal ionization.

Why your Zahori didn't work so well
This may begin to explain why some locators will work with some limited success in one area, but not another. Or why it worked good last month, but not now. In order for an electric field anomaly locator to work acceptably, It must be able to compensate for the sources of extraneous influences on the electric field. These extraneous electric field influences are considered noise when they are not part of an anomaly caused by the electrochemical properties of the buried metal. Compensating can be accomplished in the form of checking the sources of noise and making manual adjustments, or by electronic filters and self-correcting circuitry that cancels the noise sources. In some cases it is not possible to electronically cancel or filter the noise. If you want to design a LRL that is not influenced by variations in the earth's electric field, then perhaps you will look to measuring some other phenomenon (or combination of phenomena) that is not primarily dependent on the strength and stability of the electric field of the earth.

Where to next?
Is there another way? Of course there is. We may want to take another look at the strange space energies that are charging the atmosphere. Perhaps there is something buried in the details of those mechanisms that we have overlooked, that will not be subject to the fluctuations of solar flares etc. We can also take a closer look at the nuclear emmissions that come from within the earth, and the coexistence of telluric earth current flows, and at the way the earth's magnetic field interacts with these as well as the chemical processes involved with the dissolution and ionization of the buried metal. But that's a whole 'nuther story for another time.

Best wishes,
J_P

[Seden]

Man that's alot of research you just layed out there,thank you. I have looked at many patents that utilize either magnetotelluric signals or one that used the effect of solar winds which was 1hz and below for geophysical prospecting.
Once it can be determined close up in a test bed the frequencies of a particular metal, you can use video intergrating technique from Radar. This was told to me by a Hughes Aircraft Engineer whereby you take the signal and delay it by one cycle and add it to itself using a summer (dual gate mosfet would work nicely for this like a 40673 or 3n211). I'm kinda partial to the 40673 as there quite stable and have a good S21 (S parameter for those not familiar).

Regarding Telluric Currents, I read a study whereby a couple engineers monitored the tellurc currents generated by ocean waves crashing and went further and further away from the beach and tracked the signal over 100 miles away!

Now were getting somewhere in all this spilling of ink as it were.

Randy

[mosha]

Great Efforts J_P

keep going,

Is this explain why Mineoro LRL only work at brazil.

regards,

[Max]

Great Efforts J_P

keep going,

Is this explain why Mineoro LRL only work at brazil.

regards,

Hi mosha,
are you sure they work in Brazil ?
I have my dubts. :lol:

Self-convincing in the best case, fraud intentions in the worst case.

If that things work e.g. in Brazil, why they don't give a public demonstration (like the challenge) there in Brazil that these things really work ?
I mean TV, superparty trusted witness, USA guests etc etc

All the show ! :cool:

I'm skeptic that anyone could demonstrate this stuff work even in that places.

Also I've read all e.g. Hung (also Esteban and others) stuff regarding bad work e.g. due to solar activity and humidity there in Brazil (and SA in general)... but then ? Even there things are not sure ! :lol:
You never can say if you'll find anything !

So why you could say this stuff really work there ???

You can't.

Kind regards,
Max

[Max]

More details to consider if you want to build a real LRL

We recently learned there are trace amounts of ions in the ground dissolved from various metals including gold, platinum and other treasures. We discovered that reseachers found there is a vertical column of ionized soil that travels from the buried metal to the surface soil, where the metal ions finally become bound with chemicals that de-ionize them. While this ion concentration is in the parts per billion, technicians are able to measure the anomalies from the surface and pinpoint the locations where there is gold or other ores under the ground.

We also know there is a 100v/m electric field in the air that can be expected to show faint anomalies in the vicinity of any soil that has metal ions in it, among other soil variations. Does this describe enough physical characteristics of buried gold to suggest a method of building an electronic long range locator? Many have tried, but complain about extreme unreliability measuring static fields. So what hope is there to locate the hidden gold under the ground from long range?

The answer lies in more knowledge of the details of the physics and electrical dynamics of buried metals. So far we looked at ions in the soil and the electric field in the air. But what else is going on with this electric field and buried metals? What else is happening that might produce some signal we can measure?

Atmospheric current anomalies
First, consider we have 2000 amps leaking from the atmosphere to the earth. Roughly half of this current leaks through thunderstorms in the form of lightning, and is not available as a uniform leakage through the atmosphere. This leaves only about 1000 amps leaking through the earth's fair weather skies. A quick calculation shows that this amounts to about 2 microamps per km², not much current. Now this current is being forced straight down by the electric field generated high in the atmosphere, but it is influenced by the earth's magnetic field. Thus, this current does not flow down in a straight line. The magnetic field distorts the path of this current flow. In fact, researchers discovered the majority of the current is leaking through the atmosphere near the north and south magnetic poles, with a lesser amount near the equator. This research would suggest that any instruments designed to measure anomalies of the current leaking from the sky will have a much weaker signal to measure in locations away from the magnetic poles of the earth. But this is a generalization. Much more precise values can be found by consulting an electron density map of the earth's lower atmosphere.

Electric field strength variations
To further complicate this current density, the electric field strength changes throughout the day as well as changing due to solar influences and magnetic storms. The electric field exists due to a difference in charge of the ionosphere and the earth. The ionosphere is charged mostly from "solar wind". But throughout the day, there are different space energies that contribute to different regions of the atmosphere's electric charge. We find that on an average, the minimum electric field is found about 4:00am, and the maximum comes at about 7:00pm. But there are big deviations from this average depending on what part of the world you live. Charts showing the daily electric field fluctuations in Asia, Africa, and North America bear no resemblance to to each other except they all have a daily cycle.

Near-surface ion generators
The planetary boundary layer is the first few kilometers above the surface of the ground. This boundary layer is charged mostly by cosmic rays. But near the surface there is also some ionization by decays of natural gases emanating from the soil surface and by radiation emitted directly from the surface. This ionization from radioactive sources depends on the soil and geological structure as well as the meteorological dispersal rate. This boundary layer ionization decreases rapidly with altitude, and becomes less than the cosmic ray contribution at 1 km altitude.

Other sources of near-surface ionization come from mists and aerosols from waterfalls and ocean waves, man made sprays, combustion processes, lightning, point discharge or corona discharge, and friction from dust, snow or volcanic ejections. If you want to measure ionization, consider these sources that will distort your measurement of the ions in the air. This can help explain why the ion detectors show different measurements near a city or a beach than in the mountains.

Troposphere layer ionization
The troposphere layer is more complicated. This is the layer where trace air gases exist in abundance. Clouds in the troposphere act as a sink for small ions and will alter the distribution of ions. Clouds can also create a large decrease in local conductivity of the atmosphere, thus changing the electric field that you try to measure on the ground. Some clouds are also able to move large masses of ions through convection currents within them.
As we increase in altitude to the stratosphere (up to 50km), we see the main source of ionization is from cosmic rays. This is the altitude where sunspots and solar flares can reduce the cosmic ray influence by as much as 50%. These solar effects can last for hours to days. The degree of cosmic ray influence also depends on the geomagnetic latitude. Researchers also found that within the lower part of the troposphere, mountain peaks play a role in current density. Because they are closer to the source of the charge, they tend to collect more of the current from the sky than a section of land at sea level.

Mesosphere ionization
The mesosphere (50-85 km) is where ultraviolet light ionizes nitric oxide during daylight hours. Oxygen is also photo ionized in smaller amounts, along with small amounts of solar X-ray ionization. When we look above 80 km altitude, we see free electrons can exist, where mostly nitrogen and oxygen ions exist below. These free electrons are highly mobile, and make this a very conductive layer.

As we look higher than 85 km, we find extreme ultraviolet radiation from the sun is ionizing nitrogen and oxygen. This is where we see the biggest influence of solar sunspots from the 11 year cycle and the 27 day rotation of the sun, and this is thought to be the most powerful source of charging the atmosphere around the earth. We find that auroral precipitation is responsible for large variations in ion and electron densities at higher latitudes.

Is this starting to sound like rocket science? This was just a brief overview of the basics of the atmospheric electric field. There are many other intricate mechanisms that complicate these processes. All these mechanisms should be considered when designing an electronic long range locator. For people who want to measure anomalies of the electric field in the air above buried metal, you cannot ignore the variations in electric field caused by the mechanisms of the sun and other space energies. The relative charge of the air will vary depending on the solar activity, the weather, dust and waves, the geology of the local ground, the time of day etc, etc. Remember, the metal ions found in the ground were measured in the parts per billion and less. Consider the signal to noise ratio of any instrument that must measure electric field anomalies in the air above this trace of metal ionization.

Why your Zahori didn't work so well
This may begin to explain why some locators will work with some limited success in one area, but not another. Or why it worked good last month, but not now. In order for an electric field anomaly locator to work acceptably, It must be able to compensate for the sources of extraneous influences on the electric field. These extraneous electric field influences are considered noise when they are not part of an anomaly caused by the electrochemical properties of the buried metal. Compensating can be accomplished in the form of checking the sources of noise and making manual adjustments, or by electronic filters and self-correcting circuitry that cancels the noise sources. In some cases it is not possible to electronically cancel or filter the noise. If you want to design a LRL that is not influenced by variations in the earth's electric field, then perhaps you will look to measuring some other phenomenon (or combination of phenomena) that is not primarily dependent on the strength and stability of the electric field of the earth.

Where to next?
Is there another way? Of course there is. We may want to take another look at the strange space energies that are charging the atmosphere. Perhaps there is something buried in the details of those mechanisms that we have overlooked, that will not be subject to the fluctuations of solar flares etc. We can also take a closer look at the nuclear emmissions that come from within the earth, and the coexistence of telluric earth current flows, and at the way the earth's magnetic field interacts with these as well as the chemical processes involved with the dissolution and ionization of the buried metal. But that's a whole 'nuther story for another time.

Best wishes,
J_P

HI JP,
all nice. Lot of work.
But all said me what's I already know and I can't see any suitable method / principle one can use to made an LRL.

Anomalies could be made by a huge number of variables... and also noise sources could be (probably) hundreds or thousands.

No way.

For me, only way to get LRL work is an active device (like a radar), can't be passive device cause noise is dominant e.g. detecting electrical anomalies.

Think that some really powerful and directive (and penetrating the soil...) emission have to reach object, then reflected signal or secondary effects must be detected.

Best regards,
Max

[mosha]

Hi mosha,
are you sure they work in Brazil ?
I have my dubts. :lol:

Self-convincing in the best case, fraud intentions in the worst case.

If that things work e.g. in Brazil, why they don't give a public demonstration (like the challenge) there in Brazil that these things really work ?
I mean TV, superparty trusted witness, USA guests etc etc

All the show ! :cool:

I'm skeptic that anyone could demonstrate this stuff work even in that places.

Also I've read all e.g. Hung (also Esteban and others) stuff regarding bad work e.g. due to solar activity and humidity there in Brazil (and SA in general)... but then ? Even there things are not sure ! :lol:
You never can say if you'll find anything !

So why you could say this stuff really work there ???

You can't.

Kind regards,
Max

at least I am still still in self-convincing stage;) , I will let you know when go up or down.

[Max]

at least I am still still in self-convincing stage;) , I will let you know when go up or down.

Hi mosha,
I understand. That's a good thing think positive and be optimist. ;)
And costs nothing.

But you already bought one of these ?

Best regards,
Max

[J_Player]

Hi Max,
Is it possible that there are already people using passive electronic instruments to locate buried gold? Have you convinced yourself it can't happen only because you don't know the exact technique they use?

Suppose 100 years ago someone claimed they could locate people hiding in the distance in the middle of the night from over 100 feet, no matter how dark the night is, without turning on any lights or building a fire to illuminate the area. People would laugh at this claim. However, this is easily done by anyone with a night vision scope today, without the need for illumination other than existing starlight. The reason people did not believe it possible is because they did not know the technique.

If the disbelievers had studied the science applicable to the light spectrum and electronics to learn enough of the details, and they also used some imagination to build a new device that worked on principles that were not in use at the time, they could have developed the first crude long range starlight imaging methods.

Today we have the advantage of a large array of existing technology that is highly developed compared to what existed 100 years ago. If you wanted to experiment with low-light imaging, you will find you can buy photomultiplier arrays, compact power supplies, pre-ground lenses with motorized zoom features, etc without the need to invent each of these supporting components to make low-light long range detector.

Is it really impossible to use the power from the natural phenomena observable from the earth and it's atmosphere to locate buried treasure? I doubt you will know the answer until after someone doing it shows you how.

It is good to protect your money from frauds who want you to pay thousands of dollars for equipment they refuse to demonstrate working. This is where skepticism helps you to protect your interests. But if there is no investment of your money other than a little time and parts to experiment with, you have little to lose and potentially a lot to gain by searching for a method to locate treasures from a long distance.

Many technically inclined people are able to build complicated electronic devices when they are shown the schematics to build with. Some of the more advanced technicians can find ways to modify circuits to work better. But to build a new technology that has not been tried is beyond the ability of many of these electronic experts. It requires a little imagination combined with expert electronic construction to develop a new technology that works to measure low-level anomalies in physical properties that exist around buried metals.

Consider - in this case, there is nobody asking you to send thousands of dollars. The only request is to think of a technique and experiment to make a working locator. I can guarantee you can't do it if you first decide it can't be done. Same as 1500s explorers were not able to find the Americas until after watching Columbus, they became convinced it can be done and actually tried it.

Best wishes,
J_P

[Max]

Hi Max,
Is it possible that there are already people using passive electronic instruments to locate buried gold? Have you convinced yourself it can't happen only because you don't know the exact technique they use?

Suppose 100 years ago someone claimed they could locate people hiding in the distance in the middle of the night from over 100 feet, no matter how dark the night is, without turning on any lights or building a fire to illuminate the area. People would laugh at this claim. However, this is easily done by anyone with a night vision scope today, without the need for illumination other than existing starlight. The reason people did not believe it possible is because they did not know the technique.

If the disbelievers had studied the science applicable to the light spectrum and electronics to learn enough of the details, and they also used some imagination to build a new device that worked on principles that were not in use at the time, they could have developed the first crude long range starlight imaging methods.

Today we have the advantage of a large array of existing technology that is highly developed compared to what existed 100 years ago. If you wanted to experiment with low-light imaging, you will find you can buy photomultiplier arrays, compact power supplies, pre-ground lenses with motorized zoom features, etc without the need to invent each of these supporting components to make low-light long range detector.

Is it really impossible to use the power from the natural phenomena observable from the earth and it's atmosphere to locate buried treasure? I doubt you will know the answer until after someone doing it shows you how.

It is good to protect your money from frauds who want you to pay thousands of dollars for equipment they refuse to demonstrate working. This is where skepticism helps you to protect your interests. But if there is no investment of your money other than a little time and parts to experiment with, you have little to lose and potentially a lot to gain by searching for a method to locate treasures from a long distance.

Many technically inclined people are able to build complicated electronic devices when they are shown the schematics to build with. Some of the more advanced technicians can find ways to modify circuits to work better. But to build a new technology that has not been tried is beyond the ability of many of these electronic experts. It requires a little imagination combined with expert electronic construction to develop a new technology that works to measure low-level anomalies in physical properties that exist around buried metals.

Consider - in this case, there is nobody asking you to send thousands of dollars. The only request is to think of a technique and experiment to make a working locator. I can guarantee you can't do it if you first decide it can't be done. Same as 1500s explorers were not able to find the Americas until after watching Columbus, they became convinced it can be done and actually tried it.

Best wishes,
J_P

Hi,
what you said is right. Maybe exist a way to made LRL as passive locator, thus using some natural behaviour (a natural originated physical phenomenon). My real problem thinking at a way like this is cause of noise sources. But maybe is just my problem, maybe that phenomenon can be used cause is suitable avoiding also that problems.

Maybe just my previous experiences with some "anomaly detectors" (stuff for finding power lines and other things like that) told me wrong things cause I think at electrometers like detectors.

But phenomenon could be different. Right.
Just I can't see any suitable one, at now, for passive LRL.

Best regards,
Max

[J_Player]

Hi Max,

My real problem thinking at a way like this is cause of noise sources.
...But phenomenon could be different. Right.

The biggest problem to overcome with an electronic LRL is noise. We are looking to identify exrtremely small anomalies over a large area full of noise from outside physical sources. If there was no outside noise, we would still need to deal with the internal electronic noise when measuring such small signals. The internal noise is best dealt with by eliminating the noise sources from the input side of the amplifiers (resistor noise and coupling from other parts of the circuitry). Of course we would be using the lowest noise components available to start with. Even if the circuitry is optimized for low noise detection, we still have external sources to filter or cancel.

A passive electronic LRL does not need to be limited to the circuit designs we have seen like Zahori and similar. It is true the phenomenon could be different than measuring electric field anomalies. In fact there could be several phenomena involved in building a high-reliability LRL. Consider the night-vision example I explained earlier: There are some night vision scopes that convert ambient infrared to visible images by using lenses and infrared image sensors to detect patterns that cannot be seen with the eye. These scopes also use sophisticated electronics to amplify the and convert the invisible received signal to visible light levels and adjust the intensity for easy recognition. Another variant of this night vision scope transmits infrared over the field of view to illuminate the targets and make them more visible (non-passive design).

These concepts can be used in the development of a working LRL. We are not trying to detect the image of someone hiding in the dark, but we have more phenomena to work with than the night vision example. When designing a LRL to find long time buried metal, we are not limited to looking only at the electric field anomalies. There are also many other physical anomalies that come as a result of buried metal with trace amounts of ions in a column of soil above it. Here is a partial list of some of the phenomena that can be expected to show at least a faint anomaly:

• variation in the electric field of the air around soil with metal ions in it.
• variation in the atmospheric leakage of current through the air above soil with metal ions in it.
• variation in chemical activity and soil chemistry due to the presence of metal-eating microbes.
• variation in metal radionuclides emmitted above this soil with metal ions.
• Variation in telluric earth currents.
• variation in magnetic field lines, depending on surrounding soil conditions.
• variation in local radio signal patterns from natural and man-made sources.

These variations may be extremely small and hard to measure. We rely on the energy mostly from the sun and other space energies to ultimately supply the power that generates the dim signals that we might measure. Now what happens when we discover some phenomena that is not quite strong enough to give a measurable signal? By understanding the details of the energies that power these phenomena, we can construct equipment to energize the area artifically. We cannot expect to guess what to transmit and at what levels. It requires examining what caused these anomalies to appear. In some cases there have been exceptions where experimenters stumbled onto unexpected responses. These also work, but we have no clue to what is causing the accidental response and how to optimize it.

Can any of this really work? I can guarantee there are several approaches of passive long range detection in use today which pinpoint long time buried metal, and have been in use for over 2 decades with varying degrees of success depending on the approach and sophistication of the electronics. The answers come with education and knowledge of the process, not by deciding it can't be done because we haven't figured out how yet.

Best wishes,
J_P

[Max]

Hi Max,



The biggest problem to overcome with an electronic LRL is noise. We are looking to identify exrtremely small anomalies over a large area full of noise from outside physical sources. If there was no outside noise, we would still need to deal with the internal electronic noise when measuring such small signals. The internal noise is best dealt with by eliminating the noise sources from the input side of the amplifiers (resistor noise and coupling from other parts of the circuitry). Of course we would be using the lowest noise components available to start with. Even if the circuitry is optimized for low noise detection, we still have external sources to filter or cancel.

A passive electronic LRL does not need to be limited to the circuit designs we have seen like Zahori and similar. It is true the phenomenon could be different than measuring electric field anomalies. In fact there could be several phenomena involved in building a high-reliability LRL. Consider the night-vision example I explained earlier: There are some night vision scopes that convert ambient infrared to visible images by using lenses and infrared image sensors to detect patterns that cannot be seen with the eye. These scopes also use sophisticated electronics to amplify the and convert the invisible received signal to visible light levels and adjust the intensity for easy recognition. Another variant of this night vision scope transmits infrared over the field of view to illuminate the targets and make them more visible (non-passive design).

These concepts can be used in the development of a working LRL. We are not trying to detect the image of someone hiding in the dark, but we have more phenomena to work with than the night vision example. When designing a LRL to find long time buried metal, we are not limited to looking only at the electric field anomalies. There are also many other physical anomalies that come as a result of buried metal with trace amounts of ions in a column of soil above it. Here is a partial list of some of the phenomena that can be expected to show at least a faint anomaly:

• variation in the electric field of the air around soil with metal ions in it.
• variation in the atmospheric leakage of current through the air above soil with metal ions in it.
• variation in chemical activity and soil chemistry due to the presence of metal-eating microbes.
• variation in metal radionuclides emmitted above this soil with metal ions.
• Variation in telluric earth currents.
• variation in magnetic field lines, depending on surrounding soil conditions.
• variation in local radio signal patterns from natural and man-made sources.

These variations may be extremely small and hard to measure. We rely on the energy mostly from the sun and other space energies to ultimately supply the power that generates the dim signals that we might measure. Now what happens when we discover some phenomena that is not quite strong enough to give a measurable signal? By understanding the details of the energies that power these phenomena, we can construct equipment to energize the area artifically. We cannot expect to guess what to transmit and at what levels. It requires examining what caused these anomalies to appear. In some cases there have been exceptions where experimenters stumbled onto unexpected responses. These also work, but we have no clue to what is causing the accidental response and how to optimize it.

Can any of this really work? I can guarantee there are several approaches of passive long range detection in use today which pinpoint long time buried metal, and have been in use for over 2 decades with varying degrees of success depending on the approach and sophistication of the electronics. The answers come with education and knowledge of the process, not by deciding it can't be done because we haven't figured out how yet.

Best wishes,
J_P

Hi JP,
"I can guarantee there are several approaches of passive long range detection in use today which pinpoint long time buried metal, and have been in use for over 2 decades with varying degrees of success depending on the approach and sophistication of the electronics. "

Are you referring to commercial LRLs (past ones ?) or to prototypes-only-not-commercial devices ?

Can you make some examples of (supposed) working LRLs ?

I think that the real obstacle is finding a suitable phenomenon that could reveal at distance the presence of metallic objects buried... for a passive device.

Example: due to the shielding effect of soil, that's damn good e.g. at least for lower (lower in the hi-spectrum e.g. VHF or UHF) frequencies EM radiations (and lower energy) is almost impossible rely on some kind of EM interaction, from remote and in a passive way, that could reveal the target presence, when target is buried even at small depth (few inches).

Of course, other kind of phenomenon could take place and reveal just wanted interactions... but which ? Really hard to figure out a suitable one, reliable and useful for localization of the (supposed) target.

Think e.g. at bacteria... of course one could sniff e.g. for gases subproducts of their activity and find some information about the "proximity" of e.g. gold in the soil (not necessarly a treasure, of course) ...but then how to locate the hot spot... seems to me like sniffing e.g. a geiser... to try to figure out were the magna is. Not so good. You could figure out e.g. if gases and vapours have ions mixed in... but never locate the magma chamber that way.

Otherwise e.g. for magnetometers that you know reveal for real variations on the local Earth magnetic field... but for ferromagnetic targets only and big masses. But are almost useless in TH if you don't consider ship wrecks locating from boats... underwater TH. For sure unuseful to find e.g. gold.
I dubt that anyone could use e.g. Earth magnetic field variations due to a gold bar to locate the gold bar! No way.

Electric fields and variation in the atmospheric leakage currents are unreliable cause there are hundreds (or thousands) of variables involved... so few gold ions in soil can't give any extra gradient to detect here.

Metal radionuclides emmitted above this soil with metal ions and variation in telluric earth currents seems interesting but a kind of clear correlation must be found to make them useful in that research. (radionuclides can be there or not... due to geological soil composition and so method is unreliable)

Big task find one suitable principle.

Kind regards,
Max

[Dell Winders]

:) Very Good, JP. At last, after years of wasted time being bashed watching the Skeptic monkey can only do what monkey see Carl, do mentality, it's good to see an EE on this forum that employs rational thinking and excellent logic. Keep up the good works. Dell

[J_Player]

Hi Dell,

Thanks for the good thought.

For the record, I am not an EE, I am not affiliated with any EE or other person in this forum, and I do not encourage buying any products that are not demonstrated to work live in front of a buyer to his satisfaction as the advertising descriptions characterize it working.

Best wishes,
J_P

[Max]

:) Very Good, JP. At last, after years of wasted time being bashed watching the Skeptic monkey can only do what monkey see Carl, do mentality, it's good to see an EE on this forum that employs rational thinking and excellent logic. Keep up the good works. Dell

Hi Dell,
we are just discussing the topic... in a scientific prospective.
I'm still puzzled about many things, you know I'm SKEPTIC on the LRL topic in general and commercial-LRL in particular.

That doesn't mean I'm not open mind, like someone said here... before you ! :lol:

Just that any approach using star-trek's pistols and uncle-dowsing-rods... will fail finding any gold Dell, by definition.

Or have you decided to partecipate and win the Carl's LRL Challenge ??? :rolleyes:
(to demonstrate that your commercial-LRLs work )

Kind regards,
Max

[J_Player]

Hi Max,

It appears to me the reason you can't imagine a method of locating buried metal from a long distance is partly because your source of information is not good. It appears you are relying on commonly believed ideas rather than looking at the research that shows what is really observed and known.

For an example, suppose I said I can locate Carl's 10 ounce gold bar buried 2 inches deep in soil using only an instrument that measures the existing magnetic field. Suppose I said I could locate this gold bar buried in one of ten locations spaced 10 feet apart from each other, in an area of land that I choose within 10 miles of where Carl lives. If I conducted a magnetic survey over the soil where the gold might be buried using only an instrument to measure the existing magnetic field, and not allowing the magnetometer to actually touch the soil, do you believe I cannot find the gold bar?

Here are my 3 questions for you:
1. Do you believe I could find Carl's 10 ounce gold bar with this magnetic field instrument on the first try?
2. Do you believe I could find Carl's 10 ounce gold bar with this magnetic field instrument 7 times out of 10?
3. Do you think Carl would allow me to keep the 10 ounce gold bar if I was able to locate it with this magnetic field instrument 7 times out of 10?

(Hint: No way! Carl is too smart to let me use a magnetometer to locate his gold bar and win any prize from him)

Best wishes,
J_P

[Max]

Hi Max,

It appears to me the reason you can't imagine a method of locating buried metal from a long distance is partly because your source of information is not good. It appears you are relying on commonly believed ideas rather than looking at the research that shows what is really observed and known.

For an example, suppose I said I can locate Carl's 10 ounce gold bar buried 2 inches deep in soil using only an instrument that measures the existing magnetic field. Suppose I said I could locate this gold bar buried in one of ten locations spaced 10 feet apart from each other, in an area of land that I choose within 10 miles of where Carl lives. If I conducted a magnetic survey over the soil where the gold might be buried using only an instrument to measure the existing magnetic field, and not allowing the magnetometer to actually touch the soil, do you believe I cannot find the gold bar?

Here are my 3 questions for you:
1. Do you believe I could find Carl's 10 ounce gold bar with this magnetic field instrument on the first try?
2. Do you believe I could find Carl's 10 ounce gold bar with this magnetic field instrument 7 times out of 10?
3. Do you think Carl would allow me to keep the 10 ounce gold bar if I was able to locate it with this magnetic field instrument 7 times out of 10?

(Hint: No way! Carl is too smart to let me use a magnetometer to locate his gold bar and win any prize from him)

Best wishes,
J_P

Hi JP,
"If I conducted a magnetic survey over the soil where the gold might be buried using only an instrument to measure the existing magnetic field, and not allowing the magnetometer to actually touch the soil, do you believe I cannot find the gold bar? "

Is a rethoric question ?
But are we talking about LRL not about "preventive surveys" here... ?

Can you locate the gold bar without making a preventive survey ???

NO.

That's the point. So Earth magnetic field distortions caused by e.g. a gold bar aren't useful in LRL. Or you say that you could locate the gold bar anyway (without a preventive survey)?

Kind regards,
Max

[Dell Winders]

Or have you decided to partecipate and win the Carl's LRL Challenge ??? :rolleyes:
(to demonstrate that your commercial-LRLs work )

That question is so ridiculous, and is asked over & over again to promote Carl's agenda of riducule and untruths.

My answer is still the same. NO! NO! NO!

My products cannot do as you or Carl, seem to expect of them, and cannot pass Carl's, stupid Gimmick Challenge test.

You are playing the same old Skeptic Org. broken record.

I was informed with Randi, standing right beside me, that I only got 6 of the 8 tests he conducted correct. That is considered no better than chance guessing. Randi, said, more testing would have to be done before any conclusions could be reached.

I agree, and I have done years of Field testing with the present LRL configurations . I know the limitations, and have experienced the benefits.

Carl's challenge has no Scientific merit, and is meaningless when it is designed to be un-winnable by LRL except by rare chance luck. It is a sham, a publicity gimmick and you fall hook line & sinker for it, I know better. So, you can give up his bark up my tail and try to learn what real Science investigation is about from JP's example.

Don't critize me, or my products. I do not lie, and The do as I claim they do. Just prove that you can build something less expensive, that works better than I am presently using and I will buy from you.

Promoting Carl's, Skeptic mockery of others to cover up your own ignorance is a poor excuse for being closed minded to reality and the truth. Dell

[J_Player]

Hi Max,

You forget, when we are looking for long time buried metal, there is often a column of metal ions in the soil that begins at the buried metal and continues to the surface. The effects of such an anomaly in the soil have several implications that will cause measurable changes in the telluric properties beneath the soil. Are you aware that mining companies use both telluric and magnetotelluric methods to explore the structure beneath the ground and find ore bodies? Or do you only rely on commonly believed ideas that suggest these methods are not useful to locate metals under the ground? Have you ever read the reports on the precision of gamma detectors used in mining exploration?

Your previous post said many things that are only common beliefs rather than facts. The real facts do not exist in the top of your head. They can be found by reading the reports from researchers who actually measure these things. When you use faulty information from the top of your head, then you can expect to reach faulty conclusions. But if you were to study the actual findings from people who took the trouble to measure these things, then you would have better information to decide what is possible.
Big task find one suitable principle
I do not believe that measuring one single physical property is a good solution to constructing a long range locator. I believe a reliable LRL will measure an anomaly within the context of several supporting influences associated with the buried target. Thus I think it is not a simple project to whip up a pico-ammeter connected to a field detector or magnetometer. I think if you actually study the processes involved in long-time buried metals, you will find that you need to devise some fairly sophisticated circuitry and perform precise calibrations in order to achieve any degree of reliability in detecting these anomalies. But first you will need to discover which phenomena actually show some measurable signals rather than to make a conclusion from the top of your head, without considering what methods the researchers used to find these signals.

If there was a simple method to locate buried metal at long range with good reliability, then the builders of Zahori would be bringing home amazing treasures and posting photos that make your eyes pop out. You would see tax agents parked outside their homes who follow them everywhere they go. The same is true for people who advertise LRLs that find amazing treasures from long distance. Do you see these LRL advertisers collecting amazing treasures from the ground, or do you see them trying to find money from the bank account of people who buy the detector?

If I was too lazy to research the details of how a metal detector works, I might tell you it is an interesting theory, but look at these reasons why it would not be possible to build a metal detector:
• No electromagnetic coil could make detect non-magnetic metals in the air or under the ground. It must be magnetic to respond to a magnetic field.
• An electromagnetic field must travel too far in the ground to detect buried metals, therefore it is unreliable.
• There are hundreds of magnetic interferences that will make any magnetic signal unreliable.
• The magnetic variations in the soil would interfere with any magnetic field that you try to transmit into the ground. therefore you have no idea what you are looking at under the ground

Sound familiar? These are the same kind of reasons you are giving for why a LRL cannot be developed. If I was ignorant enough to not understand how a metal detector works, and I did not want to read anything that explains metal detector circuits, then I might use these arguments to prevent myself from ever believing metal detection can work, or from trying to build a metal detector. The fact is some of these wrong arguments I posted have some truth in them. We find that there is a very sophisticated art to properly tuning a metal detector to overcome these problems. This is the same for the art of building a long range locator, except it is more difficult for a LRL because of the extremely small signals we are working with, and the combination of phenomena influencing the readings.

I have no interest in trying to prove to you that there are methods of locating buried metals at long range. My objective is to provide some real science involved with buried metals that can be demonstrated and proven by thousands of pages of research. This is the Geotech forum where the purpose is to share technical knowledge, not to spread misconceptions about how geotechnology works. It is not necessary that you believe me. I only hope that people who come here trying to learn the secrets of locating treasure will have some real science to use in their experimenting instead of relying on opinions that it is not possible to develop a LRL.

Best wishes,
J_P

[Qiaozhi]

That question is so ridiculous, and is asked over & over again to promote Carl's agenda of riducule and untruths.

My answer is still the same. NO! NO! NO!

My products cannot do as you or Carl, seem to expect of them, and cannot pass Carl's, stupid Gimmick Challenge test.
Exactly. Your products are not up to the challenge. So what's new?

You are playing the same old Skeptic Org. broken record.
Music to my ears! :super:

I was informed with Randi, standing right beside me, that I only got 6 of the 8 tests he conducted correct. That is considered no better than chance guessing. Randi, said, more testing would have to be done before any conclusions could be reached.

I agree, and I have done years of Field testing with the present LRL configurations . I know the limitations, and have experienced the benefits.
As you've rightly stated - no better than chance.

Carl's challenge has no Scientific merit, and is meaningless when it is designed to be un-winnable by LRL except by rare chance luck. It is a sham, a publicity gimmick and you fall hook line & sinker for it, I know better. So, you can give up his bark up my tail and try to learn what real Science investigation is about from JP's example.
Scientific merit is a subject totally alien to yourself and most other LRL manufacturers.

Don't critize me, or my products. I do not lie, and The do as I claim they do. Just prove that you can build something less expensive, that works better than I am presently using and I will buy from you.
This is similar to the statement "When did you stop beating your wife?". It is based on an erroneous assumption.

Promoting Carl's, Skeptic mockery of others to cover up your own ignorance is a poor excuse for being closed minded to reality and the truth. Dell
Perhaps you should re-read your quote above and apply the "closed mind to reality and the truth" statement to your current mindset.

[Max]

That question is so ridiculous, and is asked over & over again to promote Carl's agenda of riducule and untruths.

My answer is still the same. NO! NO! NO!

My products cannot do as you or Carl, seem to expect of them, and cannot pass Carl's, stupid Gimmick Challenge test.

You are playing the same old Skeptic Org. broken record.

I was informed with Randi, standing right beside me, that I only got 6 of the 8 tests he conducted correct. That is considered no better than chance guessing. Randi, said, more testing would have to be done before any conclusions could be reached.

I agree, and I have done years of Field testing with the present LRL configurations . I know the limitations, and have experienced the benefits.

Carl's challenge has no Scientific merit, and is meaningless when it is designed to be un-winnable by LRL except by rare chance luck. It is a sham, a publicity gimmick and you fall hook line & sinker for it, I know better. So, you can give up his bark up my tail and try to learn what real Science investigation is about from JP's example.

Don't critize me, or my products. I do not lie, and The do as I claim they do. Just prove that you can build something less expensive, that works better than I am presently using and I will buy from you.

Promoting Carl's, Skeptic mockery of others to cover up your own ignorance is a poor excuse for being closed minded to reality and the truth. Dell

Hi Dell,
"My products cannot do as you or Carl, seem to expect of them, and cannot pass Carl's, stupid Gimmick Challenge test."

So , put in other words, you can't give any proof that your products work !
:lol:
Nice... so in what they work ?
Please explain.

"Just prove that you can build something less expensive, that works better than I am presently using and I will buy from you. "

I never claimed I want to build one, or that I've already done or that could be done by me or "better" than "yours" (or vernel or whatever).
Just said e.g. that "even a monkey" could design e.g. a better POWER SUPPLY to avoid the battery waste in mineoro's PDC210.
Claims are yours and of other manifacturers/dealers about LRLs.

So proof that the stuff you sell work is up to you, my friend.

I'm not interested in your "tail" but in your claims (and of others) about LRLs.
For me you can continue as you want selling the stuff, it's not my problem.

"Promoting Carl's, Skeptic mockery of others to cover up your own ignorance is a poor excuse for being closed minded to reality and the truth. Dell"

Cover up of my ignorance ??? :lol: About what ???
Closed minded ???
Oh you refer at LRLs fantasies and story-telling ??? Maybe... but I'm improving my knowledge reading your posts... :rolleyes:

Kind regards,
Max

[J_Player]

Consider the ground when you look for ways to build a working LRL

We have taken a look at the earth's atmosphere and it's electric charge that is generated by the sun. We know that there is an average of 2000 amps of current flowing between the earth and the atmosphere, about half in the form of lightning, and half leaking slowly through the air. In the fair weather skies, the electric field gradient follows the contour of the land. We see the high mountains have more current leaking in the atmosphere than neighboring areas of low elevation, because the mountains are closer to the source of charge, and have less distance for the current to travel. These mountains form a voltage gradient anomaly compared to uniform neighboring flat areas at sea level. We also see anomalies from other artificial objects on the ground such as tall buildings, electric and radio towers, and just about anything tall connected to the ground. These objects all create an anomaly in the current leakage through the air as well as an anomaly in the electric field gradient. But what about the ground? If we look beyond the obvious topographic anomalies, is all ground equal when it interacts with the atmospheric field and currents? Do we find a uniform ground that has no anomalies except for the contour changes?

Anomalies on the ground
We already know there are differences in ground resistivity because of different soil composition, as well as a large number of things that contaminate the surface in the area where it contacts the atmosphere. The soil conductivity can be expected to change as the ground water changes, as well as the variations in minerals and vegetation that is found at the surface. Most plants contain enough moisture to act as a conductor that is seen as ground potential by the 100v/meter electric charge in the air. Thus we might expect a tall tree to create a local variation in the electric field gradient, pushing it upward. We can also expect to find higher current flow through the tree, considering the amount of moisture and chemical activity in most plant leaves.

Plant anomalies below the ground
In addition to these anomalies expected on the surface of the ground, there are some fairly obvious anomalies just below the surface. The same tree we see 30 feet tall at the surface can have a root system an equal size below the surface. An examination of the roots will show they concentrate water and certain ions caused by chemical actions within the plant. So if there is a large root system in the soil, we would expect it to have water content that is usually more than the surrounding soil, as well as internal electrochemical activity. Depending on the shape of the root system this can have a number of measurable effects when surveying a plot of land. Consider also, many smaller plants grow in fields whereby the field is covered in a continuous root system that extends to a known depth, such as wild grass, and other heavy ground cover plants. These could have a tendency to mask some of the larger plant root systems, depending on the method of measurement. Also consider certain plants in relatively dry soil can send out roots that extend horizontally for miles. These can be thought of as conductors buried in the less conductive soil. We also usually find microbal chemical action around the roots of plants. It seems the existence of plants is enough to complicate the detection of any ions in the ground from long-time buried metals. But there is a lot more going on beneath the ground.

Geological anomalies below the ground
There are sub-surface geological features well known to geologists caused by long time movements in the earth's crust including fractures, faults, cuts, folds and other features where the rock composition changes drastically. Along with the changes in rock structure, we find changes in resistivity and other measurable properties. But we also see underground water flows that follow some of these transition areas such as fractures and faults. This is where we can expect larger variations in conductivity below the surface.

Telluric currents
One interesting phenomenon below the surface is a current flow that is generated in the earth's crust and mantle by changes in the earth's magnetic field. These currents are called telluric currents. They are generated by interactions between the solar wind and the magnetosphere, or solar radiation effects on the ionosphere. These telluric current flows also happen when lightning discharges at the earth's surface. These telluric currents flow from the magnetic poles to the equator in daylight parts of the globe, while moving in the opposite direction at the dark parts of the globe. The amount of current flowing at any one time is enough to power telegraphs that were used in the USA begining in 1859. These were later abandoned for batteries in order to obtain a constant power source. Telluric currents vary between 0.2 to 1000 volts/meter. The estimated current in a hemisphere during 12 hours is 100 to 1000 amps.

These telluric currents create corrosion problems for pipelines, which are now protected by cathodic protection circuitry. Both the telluric and magnetotelluric methods are useful to industrial prospectors who use them for exploring the structure beneath the Earth's surface. These are popular methods for exploration of geothermal fields, petroleum reservoirs, fault zones, ground water, conductive ore bodies, magma chambers, and plate tectonic boundaries.

Magnetotellucics
In magnetotellurics, the Earth's naturally varying electric and magnetic fields are measured over a wide range of frequencies (1/10,000 to 10,000 Hz). While the low frequencies are caused by solar wind and ionosphere charging, worldwide thunderstorm activity causes magnetic fields at frequencies above 1 Hz. These natural phenomena create strong magnetotelluric source signals over the entire frequency spectrum.

The ratio of the electric field to magnetic field can give simple information about the subsurface conductivity. Because of the skin effect phenomenon that affects electromagnetic fields, the ratio at higher frequency ranges gives information on the shallow Earth, whereas deeper information is provided by the low-frequency range. The ratio is usually represented as magnetotelluric-apparent resistivity and phase as a function of frequency. With recent advances in instrumentation, processing and modeling, magnetotellurics is now considered one of the most important tools in deep Earth research.

But how can this help a treasure hunter?
Can magnetotelluric measurements help a treasure hunter? It probably could if the treasure hunter was also a geologist who knew how to interpret a survey and determine what false signals to ignore. But most treasure hunters are not geologists. When we think of ways this technology would apply to treasure hunting, it has more to do with the telluric/magnetotelluric interactions with other phenomena occurring at the surface. For example, consider a large area of land with a telluric voltage trying to move toward the equator and has a fracture in the bedrock below the surface. Let's assume some amount of ground water is in the fracture that contains dissolved ions from local minerals, and is considered a relatively good conductor compared to the rock strata for miles around. We can expect a very large flow of telluric current in this fracture filled with water, compared to the surrounding dry rock strata. This can be expected to show some weak electric consequences at the surface. More important is the influence from worldwide thunderstorms that can cause some measurable frequeny components that reach the surface and are easily measured by geologists. These same radiated frequencies are measurable at the surface by non-geologists. Do they propogate into the air? Are these signals able to be picked up with sensing coils or antennas? More importantly, can these signals have an influence on existing radio signals that are broadcast in the air in the nearby vicinity so someone with a receiver can detect the magnetotelluric signal influencing his reception of the broadcast signal?

Now we know what happens when these underground currents find areas of highly conductive soil or underground water. And what happens when these currents find underground root systems? Do you suppose the currents might flow through the roots more easily than the surrounding soil? Could this cause a false reading to someone who didn't know to compensate for the underground water and plants?

And what happens when these currents travel laterally across a tall column of soil that has a trace of metal ions dissolved in it? Do you suppose you would find an anomaly measurable at the surface as well as some dynamic activity with the ions below?

Is this all there is?
These are only a few of the things we should consider when looking under the ground for physical phenomena that can help or hinder the development of an electronic LRL. There are some other interesting subterranean observations that are beyond the scope of the telluric currents and anomalies, but these will have to wait for another time.

Best wishes,
J_P

[gold24h]

Mining companys have proven ways to locate ore at distances,but i do not beleive the same devices would work on a small treasure or handfull of coins.The pistel like locaters that we have seen pictures of in posts on this site from the 1980's,i beleive work,how good who knows.I beleive they transmit a signal and receive a different signal,but what do they transmit and what do they receive,if we new those two we could build one,we know part of the units use BFO occilater,does anybody know what it transmits and receives?

[Seden]

Man I'm going to have to print out and save the two excellent treatises you've done lately,that's ALOT of work. And in both you've made some valid points and observations that Max,myself and others can put to use.

Since audio spectrum analyzer software is available for free, the next step would be to bury a non-ferrous object in between 2 ground rods and with some experimenting come up with a low noise amp with the right kind of signal processing to be able to discern the presence of the metallic object. Then once that is accomplished move on to using a resonant or non-resonant coil antenna and repeat the above experiment and go from there. The trick is going to be in coming up with the best signal processing for the noise.

Randy

[J_Player]

Hi Seden,

If you want to do some experimenting with earth resistivity without spending a fortune, here is a link that shows some simple testing equipment you can whip up: http://www.liv.ac.uk/Geomagnetism/schools/res.htm

The methods shown could also be used to experiment with induced polarization after some modifications. Also, the electronics to measure telluric frequencies and their phase shifts is a little more complicated, but probably nothing you can't handle.

If you want a hint about some of the ongoing experimentation described in this forum, I would also suggest looking into some of the old "tuned radio frequency" receivers that were used years ago, as well as the BFO metal detectors. The working hand-held LRLs are not measuring only anomalies from the soil, they are attempting to find special anomalies that cause a pair of coils to deviate from resonance. If you recall, resonant circuits are generally much more sensitive than off-resonant, but much harder to keep stable. The very principles that cause the instability will allow smaller anomalies to be sensed.

Keep in mind also that to sense an anomaly is only the first of 3 stages. After finding a way to locate anomalies, you must learn to identify buried metal anomalies as opposed to anomalies from other causes. After locating buried metals, the final task is to discriminate which metal. The methods to accomplish these are all contained within the geophysics of buried metals and the physical phenomena that surround these metals. You may need to use more than simple radio signal strength detection in order to arrive at the final objective of true long range locating. My opinion is there are some techniques of locating much more efficient than those that have been described in this forum so far.

It's nice to hear you like to read what I posted. I have been compiling some of my posts along with a number of others made by esteban and others into a html file that preserves all the information and pictures, but without the argumentative posts in between. When I finish this series of discussions, I will post the full html document in a zip file to download for those who are interested.

Best wishes,
J_P

[Max]

Consider the ground when you look for ways to build a working LRL

We have taken a look at the earth's atmosphere and it's electric charge that is generated by the sun. We know that there is an average of 2000 amps of current flowing between the earth and the atmosphere, about half in the form of lightning, and half leaking slowly through the air. In the fair weather skies, the electric field gradient follows the contour of the land. We see the high mountains have more current leaking in the atmosphere than neighboring areas of low elevation, because the mountains are closer to the source of charge, and have less distance for the current to travel. These mountains form a voltage gradient anomaly compared to uniform neighboring flat areas at sea level. We also see anomalies from other artificial objects on the ground such as tall buildings, electric and radio towers, and just about anything tall connected to the ground. These objects all create an anomaly in the current leakage through the air as well as an anomaly in the electric field gradient. But what about the ground? If we look beyond the obvious topographic anomalies, is all ground equal when it interacts with the atmospheric field and currents? Do we find a uniform ground that has no anomalies except for the contour changes?

Anomalies on the ground
We already know there are differences in ground resistivity because of different soil composition, as well as a large number of things that contaminate the surface in the area where it contacts the atmosphere. The soil conductivity can be expected to change as the ground water changes, as well as the variations in minerals and vegetation that is found at the surface. Most plants contain enough moisture to act as a conductor that is seen as ground potential by the 100v/meter electric charge in the air. Thus we might expect a tall tree to create a local variation in the electric field gradient, pushing it upward. We can also expect to find higher current flow through the tree, considering the amount of moisture and chemical activity in most plant leaves.

Plant anomalies below the ground
In addition to these anomalies expected on the surface of the ground, there are some fairly obvious anomalies just below the surface. The same tree we see 30 feet tall at the surface can have a root system an equal size below the surface. An examination of the roots will show they concentrate water and certain ions caused by chemical actions within the plant. So if there is a large root system in the soil, we would expect it to have water content that is usually more than the surrounding soil, as well as internal electrochemical activity. Depending on the shape of the root system this can have a number of measurable effects when surveying a plot of land. Consider also, many smaller plants grow in fields whereby the field is covered in a continuous root system that extends to a known depth, such as wild grass, and other heavy ground cover plants. These could have a tendency to mask some of the larger plant root systems, depending on the method of measurement. Also consider certain plants in relatively dry soil can send out roots that extend horizontally for miles. These can be thought of as conductors buried in the less conductive soil. We also usually find microbal chemical action around the roots of plants. It seems the existence of plants is enough to complicate the detection of any ions in the ground from long-time buried metals. But there is a lot more going on beneath the ground.

Geological anomalies below the ground
There are sub-surface geological features well known to geologists caused by long time movements in the earth's crust including fractures, faults, cuts, folds and other features where the rock composition changes drastically. Along with the changes in rock structure, we find changes in resistivity and other measurable properties. But we also see underground water flows that follow some of these transition areas such as fractures and faults. This is where we can expect larger variations in conductivity below the surface.

Telluric currents
One interesting phenomenon below the surface is a current flow that is generated in the earth's crust and mantle by changes in the earth's magnetic field. These currents are called telluric currents. They are generated by interactions between the solar wind and the magnetosphere, or solar radiation effects on the ionosphere. These telluric current flows also happen when lightning discharges at the earth's surface. These telluric currents flow from the magnetic poles to the equator in daylight parts of the globe, while moving in the opposite direction at the dark parts of the globe. The amount of current flowing at any one time is enough to power telegraphs that were used in the USA begining in 1859. These were later abandoned for batteries in order to obtain a constant power source. Telluric currents vary between 0.2 to 1000 volts/meter. The estimated current in a hemisphere during 12 hours is 100 to 1000 amps.

These telluric currents create corrosion problems for pipelines, which are now protected by cathodic protection circuitry. Both the telluric and magnetotelluric methods are useful to industrial prospectors who use them for exploring the structure beneath the Earth's surface. These are popular methods for exploration of geothermal fields, petroleum reservoirs, fault zones, ground water, conductive ore bodies, magma chambers, and plate tectonic boundaries.

Magnetotellucics
In magnetotellurics, the Earth's naturally varying electric and magnetic fields are measured over a wide range of frequencies (1/10,000 to 10,000 Hz). While the low frequencies are caused by solar wind and ionosphere charging, worldwide thunderstorm activity causes magnetic fields at frequencies above 1 Hz. These natural phenomena create strong magnetotelluric source signals over the entire frequency spectrum.

The ratio of the electric field to magnetic field can give simple information about the subsurface conductivity. Because of the skin effect phenomenon that affects electromagnetic fields, the ratio at higher frequency ranges gives information on the shallow Earth, whereas deeper information is provided by the low-frequency range. The ratio is usually represented as magnetotelluric-apparent resistivity and phase as a function of frequency. With recent advances in instrumentation, processing and modeling, magnetotellurics is now considered one of the most important tools in deep Earth research.

But how can this help a treasure hunter?
Can magnetotelluric measurements help a treasure hunter? It probably could if the treasure hunter was also a geologist who knew how to interpret a survey and determine what false signals to ignore. But most treasure hunters are not geologists. When we think of ways this technology would apply to treasure hunting, it has more to do with the telluric/magnetotelluric interactions with other phenomena occurring at the surface. For example, consider a large area of land with a telluric voltage trying to move toward the equator and has a fracture in the bedrock below the surface. Let's assume some amount of ground water is in the fracture that contains dissolved ions from local minerals, and is considered a relatively good conductor compared to the rock strata for miles around. We can expect a very large flow of telluric current in this fracture filled with water, compared to the surrounding dry rock strata. This can be expected to show some weak electric consequences at the surface. More important is the influence from worldwide thunderstorms that can cause some measurable frequeny components that reach the surface and are easily measured by geologists. These same radiated frequencies are measurable at the surface by non-geologists. Do they propogate into the air? Are these signals able to be picked up with sensing coils or antennas? More importantly, can these signals have an influence on existing radio signals that are broadcast in the air in the nearby vicinity so someone with a receiver can detect the magnetotelluric signal influencing his reception of the broadcast signal?

Now we know what happens when these underground currents find areas of highly conductive soil or underground water. And what happens when these currents find underground root systems? Do you suppose the currents might flow through the roots more easily than the surrounding soil? Could this cause a false reading to someone who didn't know to compensate for the underground water and plants?

And what happens when these currents travel laterally across a tall column of soil that has a trace of metal ions dissolved in it? Do you suppose you would find an anomaly measurable at the surface as well as some dynamic activity with the ions below?

Is this all there is?
These are only a few of the things we should consider when looking under the ground for physical phenomena that can help or hinder the development of an electronic LRL. There are some other interesting subterranean observations that are beyond the scope of the telluric currents and anomalies, but these will have to wait for another time.

Best wishes,
J_P

Hi JP,
read all your "treatise on natural philosophy"...
yes these are scientific arguments. Fine.

It's the question that makes me crazy...

But how can this help a treasure hunter? :lol:

That's the problem... even thousands billions of neutrinos pass the Earth at any second... BUT THEN ?

I can find many other "sources" like these... AND THEN ?

Can't see any useful way in what you exposed to realize an electronic TH LRL.

Telluric currents ???

Yes they are... smaller and smaller amounts of electrons flowing that way...
AND SO ?

How e.g. neutrinos or telluric currents can show you where the gold is... ??? :lol:

That's the point.

You miss the most important part. Explain us wich kind of interactions from these facts to e.g. a gold item could be... then the way of detectiong it by a remote electronic device.

That's the real question... which one of this of above you would use to electronically detect gold from remote ?

Otherwise is just another LRL BLA BLA BLA... that give us nothing more than what we can read on some geology magazine... sitting in the bathroom. :razz:

Best regards,
Max

[J_Player]

Hi Max,

Again, the answer to the question that makes you crazy... "But how can this help a treasure hunter?" can only be found by reading the answers. In order to know the answer in full detail, you must read how the average geologist uses his instrument to measure the telluric currents and magnetotelluric currents. Then also read to lean how he looks at the data he finds and is able to locate underground faults, water and ore deposits. A good place to start is to type in google: magnetotelluric gold. If you don't have time to read these things, then this information will never do you any good, and there is no point in your further reading or making posts about what I write.

When it comes to treasure hunting, there are several prerequisites that must be satisfied before you can hope to gain any benefit from knowing the principles of earth science that I have talked about. some of the more important prerequisites are:

1. You must possess an intellect sufficient to grasp the implications of the physical phenomena that you read about, and how they may work together in order to produce measurable signals.

2. You must possess a comprehension of the English language sufficient to understand any subtle meanings that may be found in the text.

3. You must make a decision to try to learn the answers by taking the information at hand and connecting the different principles together to form some useful conclusions. Keep in mind, there are more principles involved than the ones I talk about.

Then proceed to collect more details that I have not talked about to complete your understanding of what might work. Without making the decision to try to learn, you will be left only with the decision to give up and try to make stupid jokes. While this choice is not all bad, it has the effect of causing others to view you as a stupid person. You wouldn't want that, would you? After all, you can't be stupid if you can build metal detector circuits, and even modify them to work better than the manufacturer designed it, right?

You can continue your stupid laughter about telluric currents not capable of locating gold, or you can read some real reports where geologists explain how they locate gold using magnetotelluric methods. I don't rally care, cause it's not my job to drag you in front of pages that shows you the answers and force you to learn things you do not want to know. The cost of knowledge is education. You can educate yourself or remain ignorant. This is your choice, not mine.

Best wishes,
J_P

[Max]

Hi Max,

Again, the answer to the question that makes you crazy... "But how can this help a treasure hunter?" can only be found by reading the answers. In order to know the answer in full detail, you must read how the average geologist uses his instrument to measure the telluric currents and magnetotelluric currents. Then also read to lean how he looks at the data he finds and is able to locate underground faults, water and ore deposits. A good place to start is to type in google: magnetotelluric gold. If you don't have time to read these things, then this information will never do you any good, and there is no point in your further reading or making posts about what I write.

When it comes to treasure hunting, there are several prerequisites that must be satisfied before you can hope to gain any benefit from knowing the principles of earth science that I have talked about. some of the more important prerequisites are:

1. You must possess an intellect sufficient to grasp the implications of the physical phenomena that you read about, and how they may work together in order to produce measurable signals.

2. You must possess a comprehension of the English language sufficient to understand any subtle meanings that may be found in the text.

3. You must make a decision to try to learn the answers by taking the information at hand and connecting the different principles together to form some useful conclusions. Keep in mind, there are more principles involved than the ones I talk about.

Then proceed to collect more details that I have not talked about to complete your understanding of what might work. Without making the decision to try to learn, you will be left only with the decision to give up and try to make stupid jokes. While this choice is not all bad, it has the effect of causing others to view you as a stupid person. You wouldn't want that, would you? After all, you can't be stupid if you can build metal detector circuits, and even modify them to work better than the manufacturer designed it, right?

You can continue your stupid laughter about telluric currents not capable of locating gold, or you can read some real reports where geologists explain how they locate gold using magnetotelluric methods. I don't rally care, cause it's not my job to drag you in front of pages that shows you the answers and force you to learn things you do not want to know. The cost of knowledge is education. You can educate yourself or remain ignorant. This is your choice, not mine.

Best wishes,
J_P

Hi,
only thing that I understand from your "papers" is that you think possible detecting e.g. gold items with a just electronic LRL... but don't say HOW!

You talk of telluric currents and other things... that could interest a geologist but don't tell me or us... how you realized your LRL. So what principle of operation (or principles if more than one) is.
That's all.

Anyone, even with a middle understanding of english and some hi-school education, can post exactly what you posted here.
Find on google "magnetotelluric gold".

So what do you offer more than e.g. Esteban ?

To me, nothing.

You cannot prove anything.

Are you looking for a petroleum reservoir ??? If so your "theories" are fine.
There are already applications of that.

Are you looking for a gold treasure ? If so your "theories" mean nothing, like Esteban's burned schematics.

That's your problem.

Kind regards,
Max

[J_Player]

Hi Max,

You are saying stupid things again.You cannot prove anything.You pretend I am trying to prove something? But you know I am not. I told you in my post above exactly what my purpose is: "I have no interest in trying to prove to you that there are methods of locating buried metals at long range. My objective is to provide some real science involved with buried metals that can be demonstrated and proven by thousands of pages of research." Scroll up to my posts above and read it.

So what do you offer more than e.g. Esteban ? To me, nothing.You are correct. There is nothing of value for you here. You may as well ignore my posts because they contain no useful information for you.

Are you looking for a gold treasure ? If so your "theories" mean nothing, like Esteban's burned schematics.Again, I told you this is not my purpose. I guess you are either too stupid to read my answers or maybe too lazy. My purpose is to provide some real science involved with buried metals (read the post above).

That's your problem.WRONG! It is not my problem. It has never been my problem to perform research or provide schematics for your benefit. If you don't know what you want to know about locating treasures, it is your problem, not mine. Remember, you have no power over me whatsoever. Nothing you say or do can cause me to perform the tasks you demand. You can't coerce me to do your thinking for you even in the slightest. You can't coerce me to locate test results and research that you are too lazy to read for yourself. I think the same is true for esteban and anyone else who you tried to characterize as useless because they won't perform as you demand.
In case you haven't figured it out, I owe you nothing. Not even the explanation I just typed.

Nice try Max, but you may as well give up. Your tricks won't work on me because I just don't care.

Best wishes,
J_P

[Max]

Hi,
you talk about "particular" science involved with buried metals... like I can talk of aliens on Mars... same thing.

No relevance to electronic LRL.
What's the relevance ?

You said you've a working electronic LRL not I.

I'm interested in your claim: that thing... not geological magazines.

JP if you don't want post relevant informations here is fine for me.

I haven't any problem with you... or with Esteban.

But when someone claim something , that he had, that it work, that he designed... realized... it's clear that there is the intention of communicate to the world that YES, COULD BE DONE ! YES, I'HAVE DONE ! YES IT WORKS ! EUREKA !

Or not ?

THEN (logic said me)

Why you posted here that you have a working electronic LRL ?

Now you don't want give proofs... schematics... even the principle of operation... NOTHING.

Why you posted here that you have a working electronic LRL ?
And then become silent ?

Also Esteban and others do the same:
-they claim LRL are working
-then they don't give any explaination, anything useful to understand is possible for real or not and HOW

Why people must belive what you said (that you have a working LRL) and don't belive Esteban or others, if, at the end, YOU ACT SAME WAY ?

Just cause you post some articles here ?

My advice is, assuming you have a working LRL like you said, to partecipate to the LRL Challenge and win the jackpot, proving that I'm wrong !

This way you can demonstrate that your LRL work for real, without the need of giving to the public your discovery details.

Kind regards,
Max

[J_Player]

Hi Max,

You forget. You have the problem, not me. I don't have to prove anything to you. You can whine all you want, but you can't coerce me to perform per your demands and you can't stop me from accomplishing my objective.

Your tricks still didn't work. Now what will you do?

Best wishes,
J_P

[Qiaozhi]

Hi Max,

You forget. You have the problem, not me. I don't have to prove anything to you. You can whine all you want, but you can't coerce me to perform per your demands and you can't stop me from accomplishing my objective.

Your tricks still didn't work. Now what will you do?

Best wishes,
J_P
Why you posted here that you have a working electronic LRL ?

Now you don't want give proofs... schematics... even the principle of operation... NOTHING.

Why you posted here that you have a working electronic LRL ?
And then become silent ?
Hi J_Player,

With all this bickering going on, I've become a little confused. I don't recall anywhere that you claimed to have a working LRL. :???:
Is this true, or not?

[Max]

Hi J_Player,

With all this bickering going on, I've become a little confused. I don't recall anywhere that you claimed to have a working LRL. :???:
Is this true, or not?

Hi,
well he said something bit by bit... so take your conclusion like I have done.

he wrote:
"... If you recall, I already posted long ago that if I had a working LRL, I would not be talking about it in this forum, so you can forget about seeing any LRL schematics from me. "

But before that he wrote about the fact he has seen and used one/more working LRL built by "someone". A real demonstration of a working LRL.

he wrote:
"I've never seen a LRL available for sale on the open market demonstrated to work, but I have seen and used a couple of LRLs built and owned by private individuals that worked like the builders said they would (these are not for sale). "

and also he wrote:
"They located from a long range beyond the reach of any metal detector. The point is they are not available for anyone to buy on the open market. The only LRLs for sale on the open market cannot be demonstrated to work.

Think about it. Suppose you had an electronic instrument that located metal objects in a certain weight range and discriminated, from a range of over 50 feet. If this detector worked every time regardless of weather, and solar conditions, would you rush out and try to sell it? Wouldn't you quietly go treasure hunting and hope nobody found out about your treasure or your locator? What reason would an inventor of a working electronic LRL have to manufacture and sell it? Can you think of a reason?
"

So who knows !? Maybe he hasn't it and is just a witness of something... or maybe he has one device or schematic/design and don't wanna post here... say nothing more.Or he's just bluffing like others.

After the last message where he wrote about the fact he'll never post a schematic anyway... I've made 2+2. But maybe I'm wrong.
Don't know.

What's sure is that he strongly belive that a just-electronic-LRL work detecting metals from a range beyond conventional MDs possibilities.

It's a big claim... even saying that he has just seen or used a couple of working LRLs for real, and that they worked truly. Even if he hasn't any schematic or unit.

Just that fact is a big claim for me.

Anyway, just to explain you why I asked him to post some useful information about... and not articles from magazines.

Best regards,
Max

[Seden]

What I've come away with from reading J Players articles is that he is providing good solid scientific information on the chemical and electrical possibilities that COULD make it possible for an LRL to be designed around.

He's just provided us with the science available and it's up to us to get off our collective asses and do our own experiments. No one should be spoon fed on this forum. Were all brainstorming (American expression for sharing of ideas and theories) and since were (hopefully) seasoned electronics people now have the information necessary to experiment with.
So let's be done with this criticing of others ideas,turn on our soldering irons,oscilloscopes and spectrum analyzers and experiment.

I own several classic and new Geophysics books and have come to realize that Geophysicists are not interested in Treasure hunting and so therefore no monies have been given to research using the kind of things that J Player has listed as possiblities. Personally I too am leaning towards Magnetotelluric currents as a good starting point. Why should we have to view the naturally occuring radiation as 'noise' when we could use it to our benefit? Were fighting against something that could be used for our purpose.

Randy

[Max]

What I've come away with from reading J Players articles is that he is providing good solid scientific information on the chemical and electrical possibilities that COULD make it possible for an LRL to be designed around.

He's just provided us with the science available and it's up to us to get off our collective asses and do our own experiments. No one should be spoon fed on this forum. Were all brainstorming (American expression for sharing of ideas and theories) and since were (hopefully) seasoned electronics people now have the information necessary to experiment with.
So let's be done with this criticing of others ideas,turn on our soldering irons,oscilloscopes and spectrum analyzers and experiment.

I own several classic and new Geophysics books and have come to realize that Geophysicists are not interested in Treasure hunting and so therefore no monies have been given to research using the kind of things that J Player has listed as possiblities. Personally I too am leaning towards Magnetotelluric currents as a good starting point. Why should we have to view the naturally occuring radiation as 'noise' when we could use it to our benefit? Were fighting against something that could be used for our purpose.

Randy


Hi Randy,
yes "COULD make it possible for an LRL to be designed around"
you're right. I think JP has done a good work of research, finding documents and reading a lot.
I found some of his posts really interesting too.
And yes, I know " brainstorming " expression... make lot of these... very often (almost everyday).
Could be a good idea thinking at telluric currents as a starting point, considering them not just as noise but as useful source of an active signal.

Just I think that some of these things will never give results. Aren't promising from my point of view... my physics understanding say me that's the wrong way, so can't see usefulness of them.

My idea of LRL pass through an active locator, with some kind of signal emission, like in radar systems.

For me is much more difficault finding/thinking a passive way to electronic-LRL. Can't see good principles, theory of operation etc for them.

When I see stuff like zahori' schematic, microvoltmeters and other "anomaly detectors" I have my problems thinking at them as working LRLs... you know why.

Real misteries are the claims of above... and their implications.
Already made and working LRLs !

But I like misteries. :rolleyes:

Kind regards,
Max

[J_Player]

Hi Max,

You forget. You have the problem, not me. I don't have to prove anything to you. You can whine all you want, but you can't coerce me to perform per your demands and you can't stop me from accomplishing my objective.

Your tricks still didn't work. Now what will you do?

Best wishes,
J_P


Why you posted here that you have a working electronic LRL ?

Now you don't want give proofs... schematics... even the principle of operation... NOTHING.

Why you posted here that you have a working electronic LRL ?
And then become silent ?

With all this bickering going on, I've become a little confused. I don't recall anywhere that you claimed to have a working LRL.
Is this true, or not?

Hi Qiaozhi,

You are correct. I never did post here that I have a working electronic LRL.
This is a false allegation made by Max.

It's funny how writing about real science can cause some people to become upset and use stupid arguments to prove the science is no good; -- only the ideas that live inside their heads are correct. In this case Max used the same logic as he used to prove the researchers reports were wrong about ion concentrations they discovered in the soil, and the same logic he used to prove that magnetellurics cannot locate gold. This refusal to face scientific facts is usually reserved for certain LRL proponents or religious fanatics. But I had a feeling my posts detailing buried metal geoscience would flush out a few deluded forum members. Apparently, even skeptics are capable of attempting to spread false allegations in order to promote their favourite opinions.

For those who are interested in knowing about the properties of buried metals and some seldom observed phenomena around them, You will find little help in Max's posts to lead you that direction. Seden's post above summarizes my opinion of LRLs that led to my posting this series of facts discovered about the science of buried metals and related phenomena.

I am as skeptical as anyone else about paying money for commercial locating equipment that the seller is not willing to demonstrate working for me. And I also believe we skeptics should use the same "real science" we claim the LRL proponents refuse to face when dealing with the methods of detecting anything. "Real science" is science that can be observed and demonstrated repeatably, not science that somebody makes up off the top of their head, based on some unfounded logic and lack of data.

The news that there are traces of metal ions in the soil above long-time buried metals was not news to me. This was explained to me by a physicist two decades ago, and has been known by some of the scientists working for the US government since that time or longer. I felt now is a good time to start talking about it since some of the worst fake LRL proponents have left and stopped clogging up this forum with misinformation. We now have a fairly fertile ground for those who are still undecided, and have the electronic skills to experiment in this area.

The existence of traces of metal ions near buried metals is not the only phenomenon that could contribute to building a true LRL. But it is a key essential factor in making other phenomena detectable that could be found through passive or active methods. This is the reason I am covering some of the less often observed phenomena that changes when there is metal buried beneath the surface. There is no single method that surpasses all other approaches in this field, just as there is no single best metal detector that surpasses all others. Different approaches are needed for different conditions. There is something here for everybody who is interested in knowing the details of what real science has been observed concerning buried metals. There is nothing here for people who have decided they have no interest in understanding or experimenting in these areas. Make no mistake, I am not writing anything about the schematics or tuning details for working LRLs, only about the geophysics of buried metals. For those who have no interest in these things, you may better spend your time reading something you are interested in instead of this.

And for those who want to coerce me to perform for them or think for them, it didn't work for Max, and it probably won't work for you.

Best wishes,
J_P

[Nihil Roma Maius]

Some ideas

USA GOVERNMENT PAPER:

3.4.4 In pipeline cathodic protection, a negative potential is impressed on the pipeline which causes electrical earth currents to flow to the pipeline, protecting it against corrosion. Since the conductivity of most metals exceeds the conductivity of average soils, buried metallic pipes or cables act as low resistance paths and tend to collect stray earth currents which may be present in the surrounding earth electrolyte. At the point where the stray currents enter these auxiliary conductors the earth becomes anodic and the pipe or cable becomes cathodic.

[Nihil Roma Maius]

Coils and compass as indicator of conductivity. Lost in time!!!

[J_Player]

Hi Seden,I own several classic and new Geophysics books and have come to realize that Geophysicists are not interested in Treasure hunting and so therefore no monies have been given to research using the kind of things that J Player has listed as possiblities. The geophysicists I have talked to also have little interest in treasure hunting. They are more interested in methods to locate things under the ground that their employers pay them to locate. Most of the money for research in this field is funded by government agencies interested in science, and by private exploration companies.

Because most physicists are busy developing methods as directed by the programs they are working within, they have little time to dabble in treasure hunting. They view treasure hunting as an activity that is not likely to provide them with a good income as the research programs pay them to develop. For this reason, the development of geophysics as well as astrophysics and other related sciences are directed by the goals of government sponsored and commercial archeology, geophysics and space exploration programs. Treasure hunting developments fall mostly in the realm of private experimenters. It seems the Geotech Long Range Locating forum is a perfect place for this kind of experimenting.

Best wishes,
J_P

[Esteban]

Here another proof about how a stable and sensitive BFO in conjunction with other "things" can detect at distance and depth.

No schematics, please!!! Missing in action, yes, because I'm in action building more electronic LRL! This is for to enerve Max and others! :D

[gold24h]

Esteban,i beleive your locater works,this is what i think.The receiving part of the machine sends a signal to the BFO that causes the bfo to get out of resonance,i would have to know more before i could build such a machine but am i close to the way it operates?

[Seden]

Would you mind emailing me your address,I've got some questions that I don't want to post.

r.seden@sbcglobal.net

Thanks much,

Randy Seden

[Esteban]

... sends a signal to the BFO that causes the bfo to get out of resonance

Yes, you're right. Good BFO is better than other types because is in critic equilibrium, but is difficult to find a good BFO.

p.s.: my reference to "others" is regarding no-believers. :D

[Esteban]

Believe or not believe, that's the question. :lol:

Here a scan from press article:

[Seden]

Oh Esteban you're such a tease!!! Did you get the email I sent you?

Randy Seden WD6ELU

[Max]

Hi Qiaozhi,

You are correct. I never did post here that I have a working electronic LRL.
This is a false allegation made by Max.

It's funny how writing about real science can cause some people to become upset and use stupid arguments to prove the science is no good; -- only the ideas that live inside their heads are correct. In this case Max used the same logic as he used to prove the researchers reports were wrong about ion concentrations they discovered in the soil, and the same logic he used to prove that magnetellurics cannot locate gold. This refusal to face scientific facts is usually reserved for certain LRL proponents or religious fanatics. But I had a feeling my posts detailing buried metal geoscience would flush out a few deluded forum members. Apparently, even skeptics are capable of attempting to spread false allegations in order to promote their favourite opinions.

For those who are interested in knowing about the properties of buried metals and some seldom observed phenomena around them, You will find little help in Max's posts to lead you that direction. Seden's post above summarizes my opinion of LRLs that led to my posting this series of facts discovered about the science of buried metals and related phenomena.

I am as skeptical as anyone else about paying money for commercial locating equipment that the seller is not willing to demonstrate working for me. And I also believe we skeptics should use the same "real science" we claim the LRL proponents refuse to face when dealing with the methods of detecting anything. "Real science" is science that can be observed and demonstrated repeatably, not science that somebody makes up off the top of their head, based on some unfounded logic and lack of data.

The news that there are traces of metal ions in the soil above long-time buried metals was not news to me. This was explained to me by a physicist two decades ago, and has been known by some of the scientists working for the US government since that time or longer. I felt now is a good time to start talking about it since some of the worst fake LRL proponents have left and stopped clogging up this forum with misinformation. We now have a fairly fertile ground for those who are still undecided, and have the electronic skills to experiment in this area.

The existence of traces of metal ions near buried metals is not the only phenomenon that could contribute to building a true LRL. But it is a key essential factor in making other phenomena detectable that could be found through passive or active methods. This is the reason I am covering some of the less often observed phenomena that changes when there is metal buried beneath the surface. There is no single method that surpasses all other approaches in this field, just as there is no single best metal detector that surpasses all others. Different approaches are needed for different conditions. There is something here for everybody who is interested in knowing the details of what real science has been observed concerning buried metals. There is nothing here for people who have decided they have no interest in understanding or experimenting in these areas. Make no mistake, I am not writing anything about the schematics or tuning details for working LRLs, only about the geophysics of buried metals. For those who have no interest in these things, you may better spend your time reading something you are interested in instead of this.

And for those who want to coerce me to perform for them or think for them, it didn't work for Max, and it probably won't work for you.

Best wishes,
J_P

Hi,
"
You are correct. I never did post here that I have a working electronic LRL.
This is a false allegation made by Max.
"

you never said that you own a working electronic-LRL... or that have a schematic.

That was my hypothesys that you have one of these or a working design.

But you wrote:

"I've never seen a LRL available for sale on the open market demonstrated to work, but I have seen and used a couple of LRLs built and owned by private individuals that worked like the builders said they would (these are not for sale). "

"They located from a long range beyond the reach of any metal detector. The point is they are not available for anyone to buy on the open market. The only LRLs for sale on the open market cannot be demonstrated to work.

Think about it. Suppose you had an electronic instrument that located metal objects in a certain weight range and discriminated, from a range of over 50 feet. ..."

DON'T YOU ?

It's a big claim.

Best regards,
Max

[Max]

Here another proof about how a stable and sensitive BFO in conjunction with other "things" can detect at distance and depth.

No schematics, please!!! Missing in action, yes, because I'm in action building more electronic LRL! This is for to enerve Max and others! :D

Hi Esteban,
nice to see you again. :D

But this is your proof ???

Another picture of you holding something. Cool.

But prove nothing.

Kind regards,
Max

[J_Player]

You're a funny guy Max,

Now that You've been caught spreading false rumors, you change your story.
Nice try Max, but your tricks won't work on me.

Best wishes,
J_P

[Max]

Believe or not believe, that's the question. :lol:

Here a scan from press article:

Hi,
also this proves absolutely nothing.

I have also magazines (not just "supposed" technical) that talks about aliens on Mars and show funny pictures.

It's just another picture that say nothing of nothing.

Kind regards,
Max

[Max]

You're a funny guy Max,

Now that You've been caught spreading false rumors, you change your story.
Nice try Max, but your tricks won't work on me.

Best wishes,
J_P


Hi,
I'm funny ? :lol:

you wrote:

"I've never seen a LRL available for sale on the open market demonstrated to work, but I have seen and used a couple of LRLs built and owned by private individuals that worked like the builders said they would (these are not for sale). "

"They located from a long range beyond the reach of any metal detector. The point is they are not available for anyone to buy on the open market. The only LRLs for sale on the open market cannot be demonstrated to work.

Think about it. Suppose you had an electronic instrument that located metal objects in a certain weight range and discriminated, from a range of over 50 feet. ..."

DON'T YOU ?

It's a big claim.

Who is much funny, me or you ? :lol:


Best regards,
Max

[Max]

Coils and compass as indicator of conductivity. Lost in time!!!


Hi,
Do you see the battery ???

Is a differential circuit for measuring the Earth resistivity.

So this is your LRL ?

WHAT A DISCOVERY ! :lol:

Kind regards,
Max

[Max]

... sends a signal to the BFO that causes the bfo to get out of resonance

Yes, you're right. Good BFO is better than other types because is in critic equilibrium, but is difficult to find a good BFO.

p.s.: my reference to "others" is regarding no-believers. :D

Hi,
I like old BFOs... but what's "a good BFO" for you ?:rolleyes:

Do you think for real you can read a 3ppm or 30ppm variation on an homemade/garagemade BFO ? :lol:

1Hz or 10Hz over 300Khz ??? :razz:

You live of dreams.

That's your LRL theory of operation ?
reading FEW HERTZ (supposed) variations from a metal plate 50 METERS away with a 300Khz BFO ?

If so, you need help. :razz:

Kind regards,
Max

[Max]

Hi JP,

you wrote:

"I've never seen a LRL available for sale on the open market demonstrated to work, but I have seen and used a couple of LRLs built and owned by private individuals that worked like the builders said they would (these are not for sale). "

"They located from a long range beyond the reach of any metal detector. The point is they are not available for anyone to buy on the open market. The only LRLs for sale on the open market cannot be demonstrated to work.

Think about it. Suppose you had an electronic instrument that located metal objects in a certain weight range and discriminated, from a range of over 50 feet. ..."

DON'T YOU ?

C'mon answer me. Don't worry man.
Nobody will bite you. :razz:

Best regards,
Max

[Max]

Believe or not believe, that's the question. :lol:

Here a scan from press article:

Hi Esteban,

Is one of your devices ? One of your designs ?
One that you claim working ?

Why don't you scan the schematic instead ?
and post here...

I think many people here wanna see one of your (you said) working design... not boxes.

Kind regards,
Max

[Esteban]

Why don't you scan the schematic instead ?
and post here...

What for? If you're VERY SURE THAT IT DOESN'T WORK, so, why do you want it?

Max, you don't understand my intention. I post the pic of presse because is the unique pic of this model with the controls we can see more easyli.

Sorry, Max, yes, strongly I say you that a stable BFO in conjunction with other circuits make operable BFO at regular distance. If is martian for you, for me is normal. I learn other things by other and I know what I say.

Do you think for real you can read a 3ppm or 30ppm variation on an homemade/garagemade BFO ?

1Hz or 10Hz over 300Khz ???

Your memory falls. I explain very well you that non audible minielevation in sound before mix of 2 freqs. is the matter. You insist in your prejudices since your personal point of view and don't leave to explain, include against J_P and others. Here a post on another thread:


Is true if you expect in a BFO, for example, hear 100 Hz, 500 Hz or 1 kHz, so this is the difference when detection occurs. But with another additional circuit before occurs this "great" variation you can hear in amp stage a type of "breeze" and this isn't an audible tone. So, this minielevation in sound level before occurs real audible tone is the theme. Various times I wrote about it.

And yes, all are proofs. I don't see other person like me who can post pics with different electronic LRL managed by different persons since the 70's. If you're intelligent, also you'll see the progress through the time: first search head with cable attached at box and later integrated in an only body. What reason for to lie since more 30 years?

I like old BFOs... but what's "a good BFO" for you ?

You know: stable, all we know that, IN GENERAL, BFOs are not very sensitive.

[Esteban]

That's your LRL theory of operation ?
reading FEW HERTZ (supposed) variations from a metal plate 50 METERS away with a 300Khz BFO ?


One of the many theories of operation. In electronic LRL the field is inmense! The detector I show in the pic works at 87 KHz. Autocorrection: no theory, REALITY. Metal plate near 4 kilos buried for 120 years at 1 m or more.
Miracle is great, always! And miracle is for believers!

If so, you need help.

You need help for to build one, but no me!

[Qiaozhi]

Why don't you scan the schematic instead ?
and post here...

What for? If you're VERY SURE THAT IT DOESN'T WORK, so, why do you want it?

Max, you don't understand my intention. I post the pic of presse because is the unique pic of this model with the controls we can see more easyli.

Sorry, Max, yes, strongly I say you that a stable BFO in conjunction with other circuits make operable BFO at regular distance. If is martian for you, for me is normal. I learn other things by other and I know what I say.

Do you think for real you can read a 3ppm or 30ppm variation on an homemade/garagemade BFO ?

1Hz or 10Hz over 300Khz ???

Your memory falls. I explain very well you that non audible minielevation in sound before mix of 2 freqs. is the matter. You insist in your prejudices since your personal point of view and don't leave to explain, include against J_P and others. Here a post on another thread:


Is true if you expect in a BFO, for example, hear 100 Hz, 500 Hz or 1 kHz, so this is the difference when detection occurs. But with another additional circuit before occurs this "great" variation you can hear in amp stage a type of "breeze" and this isn't an audible tone. So, this minielevation in sound level before occurs real audible tone is the theme. Various times I wrote about it.

And yes, all are proofs. I don't see other person like me who can post pics with different electronic LRL managed by different persons since the 70's. If you're intelligent, also you'll see the progress through the time: first search head with cable attached at box and later integrated in an only body. What reason for to lie since more 30 years?

I like old BFOs... but what's "a good BFO" for you ?

You know: stable, all we know that, IN GENERAL, BFOs are not very sensitive.
Hi Esteban,

This is a serious question - Does this BFO have a transmit circuit, or is it just the local oscillator section?
Also, why doesn't the detector detect objects behind you as well as in front?

[Esteban]

This is a serious question - Does this BFO have a transmit circuit, or is it just the local oscillator section?

BFO is transmitter-receiver, 2 in 1.

Also, why doesn't the detector detect objects behind you as well as in front?

Good question. First, because the person acts like a screen. You're connected at earth through your shoes. Second, in back part of coil is another circuit wich acts as screen. So, the BFO is adjusted with all the metal parts as electrolitic, screws, PCB, RF shielded transformers, etc.

[Qiaozhi]

This is a serious question - Does this BFO have a transmit circuit, or is it just the local oscillator section?

BFO is transmitter-receiver, 2 in 1.

Also, why doesn't the detector detect objects behind you as well as in front?

Good question. First, because the person acts like a screen. You're connected at earth through your shoes. Second, in back part of coil is another circuit wich acts as screen. So, the BFO is adjusted with all the metal parts as electrolitic, screws, PCB, RF shielded transformers, etc.
Thanks Esteban.

Also, I note in your photo that you are not wearing headphones. Does this detector have a loudspeaker or perhaps a meter?

[Nihil Roma Maius]

Thid said Esteban to me (or I'm Esteban) :D :

The detector has an audio gen. tone with speaker, first models with transistorized flip-flop as tone gen.

Why BFO? In early times this was common detectors. So, later we use IB, off-resonance and primary experiment with PI. And other kinds no-based on regular MD.

For today is enough! Go and work!

[Esteban]

Nihil, stop! Grrrrrr!!! :angry:

[Max]

Why don't you scan the schematic instead ?
and post here...

What for? If you're VERY SURE THAT IT DOESN'T WORK, so, why do you want it?

Max, you don't understand my intention. I post the pic of presse because is the unique pic of this model with the controls we can see more easyli.

Sorry, Max, yes, strongly I say you that a stable BFO in conjunction with other circuits make operable BFO at regular distance. If is martian for you, for me is normal. I learn other things by other and I know what I say.

Do you think for real you can read a 3ppm or 30ppm variation on an homemade/garagemade BFO ?

1Hz or 10Hz over 300Khz ???

Your memory falls. I explain very well you that non audible minielevation in sound before mix of 2 freqs. is the matter. You insist in your prejudices since your personal point of view and don't leave to explain, include against J_P and others. Here a post on another thread:


Is true if you expect in a BFO, for example, hear 100 Hz, 500 Hz or 1 kHz, so this is the difference when detection occurs. But with another additional circuit before occurs this "great" variation you can hear in amp stage a type of "breeze" and this isn't an audible tone. So, this minielevation in sound level before occurs real audible tone is the theme. Various times I wrote about it.

And yes, all are proofs. I don't see other person like me who can post pics with different electronic LRL managed by different persons since the 70's. If you're intelligent, also you'll see the progress through the time: first search head with cable attached at box and later integrated in an only body. What reason for to lie since more 30 years?

I like old BFOs... but what's "a good BFO" for you ?

You know: stable, all we know that, IN GENERAL, BFOs are not very sensitive.

Hi Esteban,
"What for? If you're VERY SURE THAT IT DOESN'T WORK, so, why do you want it? "

I'm sure it doesn't work locating metals from far away. That's my opinion.

But I think would be a good thing if you post it anyway... many other peoples here wanna se one of your design, to test it.

So why don't ?

Best regards,
Max

[Qiaozhi]

Hi Esteban,
"What for? If you're VERY SURE THAT IT DOESN'T WORK, so, why do you want it? "

I'm sure it doesn't work locating metals from far away. That's my opinion.

But I think would be a good thing if you post it anyway... many other peoples here wanna se one of your design, to test it.

So why don't ?

Best regards,
Max
Max, please leave this thread. :ninja:
I'm trying to have an intelligent discussion with Esteban, and your constant interruptions are in no way helpful. Monitor this thread by all means, but please go and play somewhere else for a while.
Thanks. :D

[Esteban]

Oh Esteban you're such a tease!!! Did you get the email I sent you?

Randy Seden WD6ELU

Oh!!! Sorry!!! I'm in another part, the email is corporative, very closed in use outside the firm.

I'll read tomorrow and reply you.

Esteban

[Esteban]

Thid said Esteban to me (or I'm Esteban) :D :

The detector has an audio gen. tone with speaker, first models with transistorized flip-flop as tone gen.

Why BFO? In early times this was common detectors. So, later we use IB, off-resonance and primary experiment with PI. And other kinds no-based on regular MD.


Grrrr!!!! :angry: But the truth.

[Qiaozhi]

This is a serious question - Does this BFO have a transmit circuit, or is it just the local oscillator section?

BFO is transmitter-receiver, 2 in 1.

Also, why doesn't the detector detect objects behind you as well as in front?

Good question. First, because the person acts like a screen. You're connected at earth through your shoes. Second, in back part of coil is another circuit wich acts as screen. So, the BFO is adjusted with all the metal parts as electrolitic, screws, PCB, RF shielded transformers, etc.
Interesting. :cool:
Does this mean that the user acts like an earth connection through the handle?

[Esteban]

Each person has different resistence between handle and earth, for this is fundamental external controls as zero and/or sensibility.

Also (with some detectors, my simple IB homemade, don't know with others, e.g., famous brand), if you touch the negative lead of battery the MD go more depth and is more sensitive to small targets. Try! This is other discoveries??? or not???

[Max]

Max, please leave this thread. :ninja:
I'm trying to have an intelligent discussion with Esteban, and your constant interruptions are in no way helpful. Monitor this thread by all means, but please go and play somewhere else for a while.
Thanks. :D

Hi,
I'll be here just reading for a while... to make you happy. :lol:

"I'm trying to have an intelligent discussion with Esteban" :rolleyes:

wow... GOOD LUCK !

Kind regards,
Max

[Qiaozhi]

Hi,
I'll be here just reading for a while... to make you happy. :lol:

"I'm trying to have an intelligent discussion with Esteban" :rolleyes:

wow... GOOD LUCK !

Kind regards,
Max
Thanks Max. :)

[Qiaozhi]

Also (with some detectors, my simple IB homemade, don't know with others, e.g., famous brand), if you touch the negative lead of battery the MD go more depth and is more sensitive to small targets. Try! This is other discoveries??? or not???
I must admit that I've never tried this, I'll do some tests and let you know if there's any difference.

[Nihil Roma Maius]

Hi,
Do you see the battery ???

Is a differential circuit for measuring the Earth resistivity.

So this is your LRL ?

WHAT A DISCOVERY ! :lol:

Kind regards,
Max

No because also is in discussion conductivity an resistivity on earth. Be more intelligent, please!!!

Psss!!! Do you see the coils? :lol:

[Max]

Hi,
Do you see the battery ???

Is a differential circuit for measuring the Earth resistivity.

So this is your LRL ?

WHAT A DISCOVERY ! :lol:

Kind regards,
Max

No because also is in discussion conductivity an resistivity on earth. Be more intelligent, please!!!

Psss!!! Do you see the coils? :lol:

Hi,
well the coils... uhm ... YES! I see them. :lol:

But you maybe miss some understanding of the circuit.
Let's explain.

The coils+compass are there just to avoid using a zero centered differential micro-amp-meter (or nano-A-meter, pico-A-meter ).

In ancient stuff like this... often happen to see a compass like the one of above. Just cause that way you realize a kind of "homemade differential ampmeter".
Actually the right terminology for it is "galvanometer", but instead of a coil moving the needle indicator in a permanent magnetic field (like in the D'Arsonval's galvanometer) here coils are fixed and is just the permanently magnetized needle moving due to magnetic imbalance at the coils.

The coils here have nothing to do with detection of signal, like you have in metal detectors or other things... are just used to deflect the compass' needle. Nothing else.

So, it's still an Earth Resistivity Meter... but of many years ago.

You have to center it for a non-target condition... then variation of resistivity (indication by needle) could give you an indication that an anomaly in local resistivity is present, due e.g. to a metal target or also an hollow... etc etc

WHAT A DISCOVERY ! :razz:

Kind regards,
Max

[Nihil Roma Maius]

The coils here have nothing to do with detection of signal, like you have in metal detectors or other things... are just used to deflect the compass' needle. Nothing else.

Ohhhh!!! Le grand docteur!!! Thanks for explain me somethings i don't know! :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Max]

The coils here have nothing to do with detection of signal, like you have in metal detectors or other things... are just used to deflect the compass' needle. Nothing else.

Ohhhh!!! Le grand docteur!!! Thanks for explain me somethings i don't know! :lol: :lol: :lol:







Hi,
you asked about them, I've answered.

If you know already their purpose why asking me about ? :razz:

Is an Earth Resistivity Meter or not ?

Now answer you to my question. :lol:

Is this your LRL ? :razz:

WHAT A DISCOVERY!

Kind regards,
Max

[Nihil Roma Maius]

Max, as you can see, I don't ask nothing, not you, no anybody. I affirm. And this is not the correct way for to discredit electronic LRL. Please, be more precisse. No need your teaching here and no need anywhere.

Regards

Nihil Roma Maius

[Esteban]

Hi Max, maybe you wish to achieve the 1,000th post and you're posting and posting. If you achieve the 1,000 post early, maybe Admin awards you with a medal.

My proposal: 1,000 posts: fool-gold medal

2,000 posts: bronze medal

3,000 posts: silver medal

4,000 posts: gold medal

5,000 posts: 2nd category of Admin

The fool-gold medal is only for the first who achieve 1,000 posts!

You can change of alias and leave other gain the first medal. But for to gain the 2nd medal, you must be start from 1 and post and post... :lol:

So, Max, you're very near for to gain the award. Congratulations!

But the fool-gold no mean fool person, only low category of metal (false gold). :)

[Qiaozhi]

Hi Max, maybe you wish to achieve the 1,000th post and you're posting and posting. If you achieve the 1,000 post early, maybe Admin awards you with a medal.

My proposal: 1,000 posts: fool-gold medal

2,000 posts: bronze medal

3,000 posts: silver medal

4,000 posts: gold medal

5,000 posts: 2nd category of Admin

The fool-gold medal is only for the first who achieve 1,000 posts!

You can change of alias and leave other gain the first medal. But for to gain the 2nd medal, you must be start from 1 and post and post... :lol:

So, Max, you're very near for to gain the award. Congratulations!

But the fool-gold no mean fool person, only low category of metal (false gold). :)
Hi Esteban,

I don't think you are the only person to notice this. :D
Maybe the first person to reach 1000 gets a Mineoro FG80.
The second person to reach 1000 gets two Mineoro FG80s. :lol: :lol: :lol:

[J_Player]

... but what will Max do with a Mineoro FG80? :shrug:

[Max]

Hi,
Esteban I don't know... maybe I'll win your schematic ? :lol:
I dubt you'll post it ever!

About the differential-galvanometer diatribe... and Nihil

I STILL DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT HAVE TO DO AN E.R.M. WITH THE LRL WE ARE SUPPOSED TALKING ABOUT HERE !

Just this... he said "do you see the coils ?" like to say maybe to the real fools "hey look there are two coils... maybe there's some kind of detection through them...".

Then when I explained that coils serve just to deflecting the needle he become upset with me ! :razz:

What's the sense of posting and earth resistivity meter here ???
Cause of the 2 coils ! :lol:

So whenever one see 2 coils he have to put here ??? :razz:

I said "do you see the battery ?" cause I meant that the circuit have a closed path... not like in some brazilian made crap....

ops... CRAP AS NONSENSE... NOT OTHER THINGS !:lol:

All know that E.R.M. exist and are working... but it's old technology with lot of limitations and not an LRL method... cause you see that LRL-guys claims finding coins from meter away on surface ... or from 1mile away... or even things of the "mineral" and "vegetal" world.

BS. AS ALWAYS.

Kind regards,
Max

[Max]

... but what will Max do with a Mineoro FG80? :shrug:

Hi,
ME ? NOTHING.

LIKE ALL THE NAIVES WHO BOUGHT ONE. :razz:

Kind regards,
Max

[Max]

Hi Esteban,

I don't think you are the only person to notice this. :D
Maybe the first person to reach 1000 gets a Mineoro FG80.
The second person to reach 1000 gets two Mineoro FG80s. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Hi,
to get stuck with 2 ! :lol: :lol: :lol:

No way.

Kind regards,
Max

[Max]

Hi Max, maybe you wish to achieve the 1,000th post and you're posting and posting. If you achieve the 1,000 post early, maybe Admin awards you with a medal.

My proposal: 1,000 posts: fool-gold medal

2,000 posts: bronze medal

3,000 posts: silver medal

4,000 posts: gold medal

5,000 posts: 2nd category of Admin

The fool-gold medal is only for the first who achieve 1,000 posts!

You can change of alias and leave other gain the first medal. But for to gain the 2nd medal, you must be start from 1 and post and post... :lol:

So, Max, you're very near for to gain the award. Congratulations!

But the fool-gold no mean fool person, only low category of metal (false gold). :)

Actually I think you hold ...an...ehm

FOOL-GOLD DETECTOR

:lol: :lol: :lol:

[Max]

This is the brazilian made CRAP I mean :lol:

c'mon Esteban, say us what kind of bimetallic effect you have there ! :razz:

[J_Player]

Score is 990... Only ten more to go before you win the fools gold... :rolleyes:

[Max]

Score is 990... Only ten more to go before you win the fools gold... :rolleyes:

:lol: :lol: :lol: so I'm close to the TRUTH ?

[Max]

Hi Esteban,

my post #1000 is dedicated to you ! :razz:

NOW C'MON GIVE ME THE PRIZE ! :lol:

I WANT YOUR SCHEMATIC NOW ! :rolleyes:

NOT OTHER BOXES...

Upload, upload, upload

Kind regards,
Max

[Esteban]

Respect the crap.jpg you posted, who was the "intelligent" for conclude it?:eek:

[Qiaozhi]

Hi Esteban,

my post #1000 is dedicated to you ! :razz:

NOW C'MON GIVE ME THE PRIZE ! :lol:

I WANT YOUR SCHEMATIC NOW ! :rolleyes:

NOT OTHER BOXES...

Upload, upload, upload

Kind regards,
Max
Ahhh! You're now at post 1005, and still no prize. :nono:
So much time wasted for nothing. :frown:

[J_Player]

Fools gold is very pretty to look at. You can put it in a frame above the fireplace and still no need to worry if somebody steals it. Too bad, no award received. :rolleyes:

[gold24h]

Esteban,I beleive i understand the way your locater works,what i would like to know is the way you are monitering the small change in frequency in the bfo coil.There is a treasure close to where i live that i have been researching for years,i have it narrowed down to a one mile section of land,i would like to build your type of locater but i need to know the best way to moniter the frequency shift.You can send me information to my email and i promiss not to repeat or post what you tell me,this is your discovery not mine,my email.........stejon@artelco.com

[Esteban]

The prize is false gold medal. :D But you can see here another in milimetric paper in four parts or stages, 15 years ago. I found several silver objects at 80 cm depth and 70 m distance, and other objects in other place, and this isn't the Zahori. Is a passive device. The problem is: very sensitive near electric lines, no problem in inland. If you shield, no detection occurs, no at distance. What a problem!

[Max]

The prize is false gold medal. :D But you can see here another in milimetric paper in four parts or stages, 15 years ago. I found several silver objects at 80 cm depth and 70 m distance, and other objects in other place, and this isn't the Zahori. Is a passive device. The problem is: very sensitive near electric lines, no problem in inland. If you shield, no detection occurs, no at distance. What a problem!

Hi,
oh thanks. :D

Now I'm very impressed ! :lol:
Cannot read anything ...as always.

That confirms my theory about lrl-guys. :razz:

Kind regards,
Max

[Qiaozhi]

The prize is false gold medal. :D But you can see here another in milimetric paper in four parts or stages, 15 years ago. I found several silver objects at 80 cm depth and 70 m distance, and other objects in other place, and this isn't the Zahori. Is a passive device. The problem is: very sensitive near electric lines, no problem in inland. If you shield, no detection occurs, no at distance. What a problem!
Esteban - you are teasing us... :frown:
Come on man, this is technology from 15 years ago. Surely you can release it into the public domain? ;)

[Seden]

It is far better not to post miniturized schematics as it is a tease,kinda mean.:angry: I've never seen Esteban do this sort of thing,usually very honest and straightforward with the group. Perhaps Alanso has made him sign a non-disclosure agreement, just a guess.

Randy

[J_Player]

This is only esteban's way to play his game on Max and watch Max drool in agony.

What esteban is actually telling us is that ordinary metal detector methods work for long range if you remove the coil shielding. In order to get the best performance, the coils and circuits must be modified in order to optimize the long range properties, and must be used away from radio interference that cannot be stopped without a coil shield. The old circuit diagrams work, but not as well as newer modifications. The newer LRL designs esteban uses may not be BFO. Maybe other VLF or PI. Maybe highly modified to make different magnetic field patterns. Maybe different receiver coil sizes and configuration. Maybe switch to antenna receiver. Lots of possibilities to experiment with.

If you want to experiment with the long range abilities of these detectors, the cost is to spend the time in the field and experiment with modifying circuits like esteban did. Do you really expect anyone with a working LRL to hand over their schematic to you?

Best wishes,
J_P

[Seden]

OK on Mr. E. screwing with Max. Well that does open up some possibilities. From what's been used best in airborne geophysical exploration,I'd go with PI. Made Anthony Barrigner a bunch of money since the early 60's with his INPUT system. Now you've got me thinking,hmmm.
By the looks of Estebans setup,it's appears that he's using a concentric coil by the large round shape. I would also try a ferrite dipole for comparison. What Barringer did was many tests on known formations and logged the results in a lookup table for each kind of ore. I wonder how a 74HCt4046 using Comparator 2 would do for a discriminator,using the vco (gated)as the transmit pulse? Having a readout of +and- 360degrees should provide alot of information as to whats under the soil.

Anyone have a better solution?

Randy

[J_Player]

Hi Seden,

It sounds like you are attempting to implement induced polarization methods in a hand-held pulse induction metal detector. While this may have some merit, the concept esteban explained is a bit different. esteban is talking about measuring how an anomaly on the surface of the ground may interact with the existing static field of the earth, and thereby make the location of the anomaly detectable. His method is to use a modified metal detector to project waves into the atmosphere and sense the direction of the anomaly by using a sensitive unshielded receiver coil (or antenna) to find the direction. A false signal behind the sensor is eliminated by shielding from the operator's body as well as a "reflector" style shield in the hand held electronics. Thus the hand held locator will only have a view in front of it. His method is to broadcast an oscillating magnetic wave (which is in reality an electromagnetic wave), but perhaps either a coil or antenna could work to send out a signal. Most of the existing hand held LRL methods I have seen so far use magnetic coils for broadcasting, while the receivers are coils, antennas and other types of sensors.

These methods esteban talked about do not involve inducing a polarization charge to the buried target. (That is unless his method depends on the signal penetrating into the ground). He is measuring some faint anomalies at the surface and above the ground.

Back to induced polarization methods... it would be nice to hear more details of the method you described above. It seems this is a bit different than the common ground probe methods to measure phase angle.

Best wishes,
J_P

[Seden]

So he's sending out a carrier wave eh? Well yeah I could do that I guess. Nihil mentioned Esteban using PI in post #152 of this thread so that's what I took off on.

The only difference between PI and IP is IP only used rods in the ground and measures the chargebility,the apparent
resistivity and the increase of conductivity due to minerlization. IP just measures the transient current and is strictly an EM wave.

So I'll have to think about how to do what our elusive friend Esteban is doing,a bit of chin scratching is in order here.

Randy

[J_Player]

Hi Seden,

An interesting similarity to PI and IP is how both measure properties of a received signal after a time delay following an initial pulse.

In a IP designs, we wait to see a phase angle caused by subterranean capacitance effect due to buried objects. In PI, we wait to see how the decay curve looks in the received signal from induced eddy currents in the target.

Now suppose we took a normal PI detector and mod the search coil to maximize it's broadcasting ability. ie: remove any shielding and optimize the coil and driving circuitry for maximum magnetic field. It may even be possible to arrange an concurrent electric pulse transmission with a 90 degree phase angle, based on an arbitrary frequency, since we are not talking about a continuous sine wave.

A separate receive coil could be used to watch a number of received signals. It seems to me the receive coil could work either as part of the hand held gun, or also as a separate hand held coil from the transmitter to survey the field in front of where the transmitter is aimed. In any case, the receive coil would also need some heavy modding, because it is no longer looking for an easily sensed distorted magnetic field. The target is far away, and any distortion will be minute in the midst of a lot of noise. The only help we get is the hope that the buried target has produced an area of ground with trace ionization that covers a large enough area to influence the received wave to a measurable degree. This may not be as hard as we think, when considering the kind of natural anomalies that cause perceptible changes in radio reception as we move the receiver around in a field.

Also, consider some of the variations in the signal you could measure.
We already know the shape of the decay curve is used in PI applications in order to partially identify certain targets. Also the pulse delay adjustment is used to make certain targets visible, depending on the coil size and other parameters. There are newer designs that are looking at the Rx signal before the pulse is complete in order to provide much more information about the type of metal that has been detected. Test reports are beginning to show these new PI designs are able to discriminate better than VLF. You should be able to read about these new methods in the US patent office within the next few months.

If a PI machine can be optimized for long range detection in air, then it seems these same new discrimination methods may be applicable to treasure hunting.

This is only one concept for LRL, based on the experimenting esteban has talked about. There are other methods which include modifications to IP, and a few others.

Best wishes,
J_P

[Max]

This is only esteban's way to play his game on Max and watch Max drool in agony.



Hi,
Which agony ? :lol:
Of who ?

Maybe his devices just don't work and he's playing a role in a kind of science fiction here ! :razz:

BTW he said many times that what he calls "passive" devices use electrostatics (microvoltmeters, zahori etc etc etc) or just are modified BFO.

Then also negated that there is any HALO advantage in LRL technology... that is like noise, read his post to me. But Nihil said that, instead, he found 30 something copper coins due to HALO using his LRL ! :lol:

And at the end I still think Nihil=Esteban, Esteban=Nihil :rolleyes: ... so it's the halo an advandage or a disvantage ????

But come back to principles he claimed for "passive" devices...

The first all we know that doesn't work. That any Wal*Mart detector could win in that challenges ! :lol: You could find has many power lines you want... as many TV CRTs ON...

The second (BFO) is e.g. measuring a 3ppm or 30ppm frequency variation in e.g. an 80KHz or 300KHz running frequency with an homemade/garagemade detector.

Do you still think it/them work ! :rolleyes:

You trust Esteban more than you should for me ! And all the other nicknames here talking about ions, BFO and detection of coins from 1mile away!

The funny miniature-schematic he posted again, for me, say everything about his goodwill of make you understand how things really go in his "boxes".

I mean that these don't work.;)

Kind regards,
Max

[J_Player]

Hi Max,

If there's no drooling in agony, then why do you keep begging him?
Don't you wish esteban would stop laughing at you?

Best wishes,
J_P

[Max]

Hi Max,

If there's no drooling in agony, then why do you keep begging him?
Don't you wish esteban would stop laughing at you?

Best wishes,
J_P

Hi,
cause I wanna see his schematic like many others. But my interest is just about the crap inside. :lol:

He can laugh as he wants but I think that, even if he'll never admit here, his bursts of laughter are for people that still belive he found coins or other stuff using that craps.

That's the point. :razz:

Kind regards,
Max

[Esteban]

Then also negated that there is any HALO advantage in LRL technology... that is like noise, read his post to me. But Nihil said that, instead, he found 30 something copper coins due to HALO using his LRL !

False!!! NRM said that around 34 coins look as copper migration, not the same, no light in it! So, you don't understand what you're reading!

Hi,
cause I wanna see his schematic like many others. But my interest is just about the crap inside. :lol:

Who knows! You!!! :lol: If inside there are a regular MD (simple) with additions, is more logic for you?

The second (BFO) is e.g. measuring a 3ppm or 30ppm frequency variation in e.g. an 80KHz or 300KHz running frequency with an homemade/garagemade detector.

One more time, these are your words, no mine. I any part I'm speaking about 3 ppm in X Khz. I'm talking about a superelevation in signal or voltage in the coil. This is the THIRD TIME I explain the same. Also, in very old posts you never read, I affirm the same. Do you are blind? So, with this prejudice you're not able for to build an electronic LRL (or medium range) MD. Include based on regular MD.

Max, your problem is this: you wish to believe, but you, first, feel shane because you want stay in "the world of logic", this mean, you are scare if the scientific world said of you: "this is crazy". The same what happens when, in the past, some persons affirm that the Earth is round, when all assume that is square.

[Max]

Then also negated that there is any HALO advantage in LRL technology... that is like noise, read his post to me. But Nihil said that, instead, he found 30 something copper coins due to HALO using his LRL !

False!!! NRM said that around 34 coins look as copper migration, not the same, no light in it! So, you don't understand what you're reading!

Hi,
cause I wanna see his schematic like many others. But my interest is just about the crap inside. :lol:

Who knows! You!!! :lol: If inside there are a regular MD (simple) with additions, is more logic for you?

The second (BFO) is e.g. measuring a 3ppm or 30ppm frequency variation in e.g. an 80KHz or 300KHz running frequency with an homemade/garagemade detector.

One more time, these are your words, no mine. I any part I'm speaking about 3 ppm in X Khz. I'm talking about a superelevation in signal or voltage in the coil. This is the THIRD TIME I explain the same. Also, in very old posts you never read, I affirm the same. Do you are blind? So, with this prejudice you're not able for to build an electronic LRL (or medium range) MD. Include based on regular MD.

Max, your problem is this: you wish to believe, but you, first, feel shane because you want stay in "the world of logic", this mean, you are scare if the scientific world said of you: "this is crazy". The same what happens when, in the past, some persons affirm that the Earth is round, when all assume that is square.

Hi,
oh yeah... I'm blind sure ! :lol:

I think you need a working pair of googles...

when find one come back here and read the Nihil's post better.

Best regards,
Max

[J_Player]

this mean, you are scare if the scientific world said of you: "this is crazy". The same what happens when, in the past, some persons affirm that the Earth is round, when all assume that is square.Hahahahahahaaaaa... You think Max belongs here? http://www.alaska.net/~clund/e_djublonskopf/Flatearthsociety.htm (http://www.alaska.net/%7Eclund/e_djublonskopf/Flatearthsociety.htm)

[Max]

Hahahahahahaaaaa... You think Max belongs here? http://www.alaska.net/~clund/e_djublonskopf/Flatearthsociety.htm

Hi,
Why !? I've just reposted Nihil's stuff for Esteban to read it again... I mean after buying a working pair of googles ! :razz:

But maybe you can read him... by phone... in spanish :lol:
like a goodnight story ! :rolleyes:

Kind regards,
Max

[Max]

glasses for Esteban... :lol:
you can see even the aliens with that (or your LRL working maybe) ! :razz:

8)

[Max]

Esteban use these... :lol:

[Max]

better ? :rolleyes:

[Max]

but maybe Esteban needs this to read Nihil's post the right way....:lol:

[Max]

but cause I'm so good guy... I report agian what Nihil said about HALO and LRL in big letters...

so you haven't buy anything....

Nihil wrote this

"Ehhh!!! :eek: Of course, and this is the reason why electronic LRL acts good with old targets. I found a couple of 34 copper coins –25 mm diam each– and comprobe how the surrounding earth was affected by copper migration... like electrochemistry, galvanization of the soil! This enlarge the size of the object/s. Maybe is not viewable in an only coin, but yes with 34 corroded copper coins...

Non ferrous causes more halo than ferrous. In aparience ferrous causes more because targets iron in general are more bigs."

So, do you read it now ??? :lol:

So HALO is good or not for LRL ??? :razz: What a puzzle !
You say not, he say yes...
I say that LRL can't work both way ! :rolleyes:

Kind regards,
Max

[J_Player]

this mean, you are scare if the scientific world said of you: "this is crazy". The same what happens when, in the past, some persons affirm that the Earth is round, when all assume that is square.Hahahahahahaaaaa... I guess I was right. This is where esteban thinks Max belongs: http://www.alaska.net/~clund/e_djublonskopf/Flatearthsociety.htm (http://www.alaska.net/%7Eclund/e_djublonskopf/Flatearthsociety.htm) :lol:

[Max]

Hi,
another puzzle for you LRL guys... Nihil's post again,
he wrote:

"
J_Player

You're RIGHT!

Secondary phenomenom is the key. Sensitive electrometers demands a kind of shielding or own "atmosphere" as in the old glass vacuum tube.

Also can helps preionized gold. Smoke detectors with Americium 241 can be usable.

How appears gold in nuclear reactor, the modern Alchemy:

http://www.chemsoc.org/ExemplarChem/...bb/modern.html (http://www.chemsoc.org/ExemplarChem/entries/2002/crabb/modern.html)
"

Eh ? Now requires not only HALO, but also SHIELDING ?
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Esteban you said that it doesn't require any shielding, don't you ?

ANOTHER PUZZLE ! :razz:

Or an intentional disinformation ?

Esteban=Nihil ? I think so. They write at the opposite just to disinformate people here... to appear different persons :lol: old tricks from Paraguay ??? ;)

Try another !

Best regards,
Max

[Max]

Hahahahahahaaaaa... I guess I was right. This is where esteban thinks Max belongs: http://www.alaska.net/~clund/e_djublonskopf/Flatearthsociety.htm (http://www.alaska.net/%7Eclund/e_djublonskopf/Flatearthsociety.htm) :lol:

Hi JP,
you could do better... that way seems you gives help to a floundering Esteban or Nihil... from Paraguay... :lol:

I'm skeptic...

WHAT A DISCOVERY ! :razz:

And you are on the way with all this nonsense.

Questions for you, great scientist:
HALO is good or not for LRL ?
Shielding is required or not , novel Einstein? :lol:

Kind regards,
Max

[J_Player]

this mean, you are scare if the scientific world said of you: "this is crazy". The same what happens when, in the past, some persons affirm that the Earth is round, when all assume that is square.
you could do better... that way seems you gives help to a floundering Esteban or Nihil... from Paraguay...

I'm skeptic......So you agree too? You are skeptical about this round earth theory? Was esteban correct? you really do belong here? http://www.alaska.net/~clund/e_djublonskopf/Flatearthsociety.htm (http://www.alaska.net/%7Eclund/e_djublonskopf/Flatearthsociety.htm) :lol:

Best wishes,
J_P

[Max]

...So you agree too? You are skeptical about this round earth theory? Was esteban correct? you really do belong here? http://www.alaska.net/~clund/e_djublonskopf/Flatearthsociety.htm (http://www.alaska.net/%7Eclund/e_djublonskopf/Flatearthsociety.htm) :lol:

Best wishes,
J_P

Hi,
no I'm not belonging to that CRAP... and not belonging to Esteban like seems you are.

Here is another pearl by your Einstein, enjoy:

"
1,000,000 Randi's prize is for LRL rods, no for electronic long range detectors, please no mixing the thinks.

IR (infrared) + FM radio = 7 m in distance, depth for coin max. 50-70 cm.

IR + FM radio + magnetic absorption antenna = 25 m

And more and more combinations. Conclusion: an unexploded field with infinite possibilities.

Justly (and incredivel), electronic LRD can based in many systems, and ¡incredivel, surprise! nobody or almost nobody work in it in this forum.
"

Infrared+ FM radio ??? 7 meters.
IR + FM radio + magnetic absorption antenna = 25 m.

Explain that GENIUS. :razz:

And you still continue giving him credit here.
You are funny. Now if he's right let him explain you how to made this IR + otherCRAP, then go and win the challenge.

I think you'll better have to register at this...
http://www.alaska.net/~clund/e_djublonskopf/Flatearthsociety.htm
maybe they could teach you some phisics. :lol:

Kind regards,
Max

[J_Player]

Hi max,

You are confused. I have no argument against or for esteban. YOU are the one arguing about his circuits. When I read he compares you to people who don't believe the earth is round, then it makes me believe he thinks you belong here: http://www.alaska.net/~clund/e_djublonskopf/Flatearthsociety.htm (http://www.alaska.net/%7Eclund/e_djublonskopf/Flatearthsociety.htm)

If you think esteban's idea is wrong, maybe you should argue with him. I have no argument. I only laugh when I see something looks funny to me. :lol:

Best wishes,
J_P

[Esteban]

Max, for you, halo is good for MD, and also you believe in it. If good for MD, why don't for electronic LRL? You need more than googles. But your case have not solution. :D

[Esteban]

Detection in coils and antennas or loops (electronic LRL) occurs by the spontaneous potential causes by conductive bodies. Is all you need to know.

You can read more here:

http://www.wellog.com/surface_sp.htm

And here:

[Rudy]

Detection in coils and antennas or loops (electronic LRL) occurs by the spontaneous potential causes by conductive bodies. Is all you need to know.

You can read more here:

http://www.wellog.com/surface_sp.htm

And here:

That is very interesting Esteban. But how does a coil or loop detect a DC potential, or a DC electric field of 1 Volt/Kilometer ?

Clearly running through the country side waving the loop up and down swiftly to cause it to sense this field does not sound too practical.

[Max]

Max, for you, halo is good for MD, and also you believe in it. If good for MD, why don't for electronic LRL? You need more than googles. But your case have not solution. :D

Hi Esteban,
I still think you have a clue on many things e.g. BFO... and don't wanna be too polemic here but some of your posts are an insult to intelligence.

You wrote now :

"If good for MD, why don't for electronic LRL? "

So you make think people here that HALO could be good for LRL as in MD.. but using a question so actually say nothing.

But you wrote before in the HALO thread the following.

Seems you contradice yourself that way.

So is HALO good or not for LRL ? I still don't understand.
(Cannot find any usefulness of all this disinformation)

Best regards,
Max

[Max]

Hi max,

You are confused. I have no argument against or for esteban. YOU are the one arguing about his circuits. When I read he compares you to people who don't believe the earth is round, then it makes me believe he thinks you belong here: http://www.alaska.net/~clund/e_djublonskopf/Flatearthsociety.htm (http://www.alaska.net/%7Eclund/e_djublonskopf/Flatearthsociety.htm)

If you think esteban's idea is wrong, maybe you should argue with him. I have no argument. I only laugh when I see something looks funny to me. :lol:

Best wishes,
J_P

Hi,
oh yeah... laugh as you want! Is a good thing !

But you cannot explain these !

Infrared+ FM radio ??? 7 meters.
IR + FM radio + magnetic absorption antenna = 25 m.

Do you ? :lol:

So I laugh of both of you. :lol:

Oh yeah... sorry... you're not belonging to him... and have not arguments :lol:

Kind regards,
Max

[J_Player]

******** VOTE NOW ********

1. is halo real or fake idea? Halo is REAL/FAKE
2. Is halo good for metal detectors? Good/bad for metal detector
3. Is halo good for long range locators? Good/bad for LRL

Post your votes below so we can use democracy to decide if halo works!

Best wishes,
J_P

[J_Player]

My vote:

1. Halo is real
2. Halo is good for metal detectors
3. Halo is good for LRL

Best wishes,
J_P

[Max]

My vote:

1. Halo is real
2. Halo is good for metal detectors
3. Halo is good for LRL

Best wishes,
J_P

Hi,

1. for me, is real, but can't explain who it works, have no proofs, just ideas
2. yes when it comes from good targets (not iron), could make easier finding a target with an MD

3. is a problem... cause you have to find a working LRL first to say if halo could be good or not in searching for treasures: nobody untill now proved that LRL work... e.g. with a public demonstration, so I think that the question have no meaning untill someone show us a real working LRL and also the physics involved... if could be related to halo or not.

Kind regards,
Max

[J_Player]

No need to prove anything. This is only a vote, not a science class. You vote for what you want the halo law to be.

So far we have:

2 votes for halo is real
2 votes for halo works for metal detector
1 vote for halo works for LRL

Everybody vote so we can use democracy to find out if halo works!

Best wishes,
J_P

[Esteban]

1. Halo is real
2. Halo is good for metal detectors
3. Halo is good for LRL
And for electronic LRL.

[Esteban]

But how does a coil or loop detect a DC potential, or a DC electric field of 1 Volt/Kilometer ?

You walk with the device, you're a kind of electrode and when find a different potential, this glitch the detector, because concentrate metal is more strong than disperssed minerals or ores. Coils are working in AC. You must to move the detector slow. Each DC really is AC, since you put and quit the search coil during detection (movement), is a kind of "knock".

No need to plant an electrode 1 km away. For me, spontaneous potential of solid metal as a coin is very more than 1 V in the first impulse. But this occurs with items buried for long time.

[Rudy]

But how does a coil or loop detect a DC potential, or a DC electric field of 1 Volt/Kilometer ?

You walk with the device, you're a kind of electrode and when find a different potential, this glitch the detector, because concentrate metal is more strong than disperssed minerals or ores. Coils are working in AC. You must to move the detector slow. Each DC really is AC, since you put and quit the search coil during detection (movement), is a kind of "knock".

No need to plant an electrode 1 km away. For me, spontaneous potential of solid metal as a coin is very more than 1 V in the first impulse. But this occurs with items buried for long time.

Ok, if I understand you correctly, you walk at a normal pace, so fast motion of the coil through some quasi-static flux lines is not necessary.

I further understood from your above, that what you are really detecting is the transition from a region of normal "background" mineralization, to a region of concentrated metal. Moving the coil so it goes from sensing one region to the other creates the "glitch" in the coil that you sense and that is why you think of it as AC.

Did I understand right?

[Esteban]

Did I understand right?

Yes, is right. You must go through the phenomenom, because can't be reproduced in electronic labo (I can't). Good sites for to try is battlefields, always there are in these places conductive old items.

Because you're moving in different terrains, regions, atmospheric pressure, soil, etc., detector must be have external controls for to adjust in the best point.

Deppend of the sensibility (with stability) of the instrument, primary input circuit, you can discovery how strong can be a bronze bullett shield, for example, at 5-6 m, because expand the "signal" in an angle of 120º, also OVER the object, causes you can't centrate very well. You go out of this field, and "activity" stops. But this work with antennas, no coils.

[Seden]

Esteban,

Yur last posts-most clear explanations you've ever given about your system. Anyone who doesn't understand that doesn't need to know.
What you have described is EXACTLY the same way motion detectors work. Gotta move the coil or you will not hear the target-period.

So you mentioned that you do not use a coil but an E-field antenna which for this application would be the best as that's what you're after.

That being said I would imagine to detect spontanious Polarization or a difference in potential of a target would make it more a medium range detector. Very interesting though and I'd like to build one. Thank you for taking the time to make it perfectly clear to us all. I wasn't sure of what you were doing and was set to go off in another direction.

Very good Esteban, keep up the good work.

Randy

[Esteban]

Hello Randy

As the phenomenom is complex (but is electric and/or magnetic and also maybe re-radiate RF of different sources), the ways of detection also are severals.

Deppend of input circuit, telescopic antenna is very precisse and for more long detection.

[Rudy]

Did I understand right?

Yes, is right. You must go through the phenomenom, because can't be reproduced in electronic labo (I can't). Good sites for to try is battlefields, always there are in these places conductive old items.

Because you're moving in different terrains, regions, atmospheric pressure, soil, etc., detector must be have external controls for to adjust in the best point.

Deppend of the sensibility (with stability) of the instrument, primary input circuit, you can discovery how strong can be a bronze bullett shield, for example, at 5-6 m, because expand the "signal" in an angle of 120º, also OVER the object, causes you can't centrate very well. You go out of this field, and "activity" stops. But this work with antennas, no coils.

Thank you Esteban.

Yes, a coil would not be the best receptor for this.

A thought occurs to me that might improve the sensitivity of the apparatus.

A differential front end preamp might do a better job of cancelling the first order and some of the second order noise. Each input of the differential amp would be fed from a different (but identical) antenna element and the two antennas are held perpendicular to each other.

[Max]

Hi,
yes all interesting... but I cannot see anything new respect e.g. to Zahori... that are proved not working devices.

The fact that a spontaneous polarization could exist for a long time buried object doesn't mean that a zahori-like circuit can detect it, or pinpoint it etc.

When he said signal is AC he made a mistake. Electric field (if any) is static. What he does moving the zahori is just changing the antenna set direction to the target ... then getting some beep due to eventual E-field transients.

But what about e.g. electrical noise ? RF-noise ?
Everybody tested a zahori-circuit knows very well that these devices are almost unusable cause of the randomic beeping due to external noise.

As maybe someone here knows the USAF made such a device (a bit different but similar) to be integrated in AC-130 Spectre variants during second phase of Vietnam war.

Device was capable of detecting (from the sky!) the ignition sparks of e.g. trucks moving through the Ho Chi Minh "route" in north vietnam, by NIGHT.

If this is the principle of operation... wow... you'll detect any car passing near... any neon lamp... any far lightening etc etc etc and of course also RF noise, cause of the E-component of the EM wave.

Maybe it works for Esteban (maybe), cause there aren't noise sources... but a pratical LRL device can't find such conditions in too many places of the world today... so what's usefulness e.g. in UK or in Florida ?

I'm wrong ?

Kind regards,
Max

[Max]

Thank you Esteban.

Yes, a coil would not be the best receptor for this.

A thought occurs to me that might improve the sensitivity of the apparatus.

A differential front end preamp might do a better job of cancelling the first order and some of the second order noise. Each input of the differential amp would be fed from a different (but identical) antenna element and the two antennas are held perpendicular to each other.

Hi Rudy,
good idea. You can cancel differential noise that way... but there is a problem... you have to use one branch of diff. amp. to get "useful" signal from antenna-set so if there is some e.g. radiated noise... you'll get it as useful signal.
Same thing for e-fields local anomalies due e.g. to grass, moisture of soil, cars ignition sparks etc etc etc

You cut differential noise... but is only a fraction of the potential noise.

"the two antennas are held perpendicular to each other"

this could be useful... but think cannot resolve problems.

I'm wrong ?

Kind regards,
Max

[J_Player]

***** FINAL CALL - VOTE NOW *****

1. is halo real or fake idea? Halo is REAL/FAKE
2. Is halo good for metal detectors? Good/bad for metal detector
3. Is halo good for long range locators? Good/bad for LRL

Post your votes below so we can use democracy to decide if halo works!


So far, this is the vote count:
3 votes Halo is real.
0 votes Halo is fake.

3 votes Halo is good for metal detector.
0 votes Halo is bad for metal detector.

2 votes Halo is good for LRL.
0 votes Halo is bad for LRL.

1 vote Halo is good for electronic LRL.
1 vote don't know if halo is good for LRL.

Final ballots will be counted soon so we can use democracy to decide if halo works.
Post your vote before the ballot closes!

Best wishes,
J_P

[Max]

Hi,
maybe someone forget older threads... posts by Esteban and others...
old stuff... serves nothing... can't find any gold but powerlines...

Some people here built them and get no results ... but just detecting noise.

Main problem was always AC fields by power lines... then all the rest of noise out there. Seems nobody found even known long time buried targets with them.

But if you don't belive my words...

here are some of the old schematics by Esteban, Carlos etc etc etc

are really easy to do yourself... do it... see with your eyes ! :rolleyes:

enjoy :lol:

Kind regards,
Max

[J_Player]

here are some of the old schematics by Esteban, Carlos etc etc etcOk, now you have your schematic of LRL. Can we finally see the end of your clown postings begging for schematics?

Best wishes,
J_P

[Max]

Hi JP,
no ! :lol:

I have them already... old stuff. Mounted one and saw same things as Ivconic, Michael etc.

No, no... these are not Esteban's designs :nono:

Carlos and Esteban posted them... but are from magazines... to find water flows etc

I asked him for one of his (original) designs and one that he claims working... detecting e.g. a coin on surface soil from 2 meters away.

Do you remember ? :razz:

Kind regards,
Max

[Max]

Hi,
now ... if you understand even a bit of spanish... look at his assertion about the "equilibrium" point you need to get a useful signal: the nulling of device is critical to avoid getting false signal from "environment".

Now think you are immersed in noise... RF-stations, power-lines... even cars... or opossums... do you think you'll never find the treasure that way ? :lol:

BS.

But I'm ready to change idea now... if someone gives me facts!

Best regards,
Max

[J_Player]

Ok I guess we don't see the end of your clown postings begging for schematics.

One hint: Before you can get esteban to send you his schematic, you must first be smarter than esteban.

Best wishes,
J_P

[Max]

Ok I guess we don't see the end of your clown postings begging for schematics.

One hint: Before you can get esteban to send you his schematic, you must first be smarter than esteban.

Best wishes,
J_P

Am I the problem JP ? :lol:

Oh sorry... you are the expert of LRL... very sorry.

:razz:

[Max]

BTW I think he never heard of the AC-130 Spectre device I've described...
not so smart I think! :razz:

And you ? :lol:

[J_Player]

Hi Max,

I know nothing about smart. All I know is what I see.
The appearance I see is esteban holds up a hoop and you jump through every time. Maybe similar to a seal trainer making a show for people to watch the funny seal. But the difference, esteban does not throw you the fish after you jump through the hoop like the seal trainer. He tells you to go find your own fish. Instead of find your own fish, you return to jump through his hoop again.

But maybe I am wrong. This is only what it looks like to me when I see you continue to waste your energy try to get his schematic.

Best wishes,
J_P

[Max]

Hi Max,

I know nothing about smart. All I know is what I see.
The appearance I see is esteban holds up a hoop and you jump through every time. Maybe similar to a seal trainer making a show for people to watch the funny seal. But the difference, esteban does not throw you the fish after you jump through the hoop like the seal trainer. He tells you to go find your own fish. Instead of find your own fish, you return to jump through his hoop again.

But maybe I am wrong. This is only what it looks like to me when I see you continue to waste your energy try to get his schematic.

Best wishes,
J_P

I'm just relaxing with a funny topic... stressed by other things... you know.

[J_Player]

Yes, this whole LRL forum is funny, good for laughing and post things not serious. Maybe time for more voters to vote for laws of halo now.. :lol:

Best wishes,
J_P

[Max]

Hi,
I cannot vote twice ! :lol: Can I ?

...about circuit... well they work for power lines very well...
so you can use e.g. to find wires in walls and similar stuff, I've made something similar in the past and are useful if you have to find where they are...without dismantle the house.

Here is the prototype by Esteban of the first one if I remember well...
even if sloppy I think it worked, but same of what I've made !

I hope he made better PCB now... better than mine I mean! :razz:

Kind regards,
Max

[Esteban]

Carlos and Esteban posted them... but are from magazines... to find water flows etc

Of course, and the Ivconic's implementation was based in it. If you read all the text, in the final part, is possible to find another kind of anomalies. The text assures that water flows into the earth and creates ionic interchanges.

Yes, also I said that these devices (like Zahori) is for use in inland sites, regarding interferences. No mistery here. I don't imagine excavating in the street with intense vehicular traffic or similar places.

Yes, Zahori works for treasure in inland. Someday a owner who bought a Ivconic's implementation will find treasure. I expect that Ivconic inform here.

Treasure is energy = interference for sensitive devices. :razz:

[Esteban]

Max, this is not all the circuitry. Only is the third part.

[Esteban]

A differential front end preamp might do a better job of cancelling the first order and some of the second order noise. Each input of the differential amp would be fed from a different (but identical) antenna element and the two antennas are held perpendicular to each other.


Rudy:

The unique source of noise I cancelled in other project (10 years ago) was for reject 50 Hz noises (60 Hz in USA) of electric lines, two active filters based on TL074.

Also I try lateral unbalanced antennas, but perpendicular. Center antenna is sensor, largest. Each lateral antenna is connected to 0 V via different value resistors. Also works.

[Max]

I'm the cure ! :lol:

[Nihil Roma Maius]

Cure your non-conclude detectors!

By the way: Medice, cura te ipsum!

Best regards

Nihil Roma Maius

[Nihil Roma Maius]

Esteban:

This Max loose clarity in mind. He is not prepared for to discuss seriously. :nono:

Is well if he have experience in electronic LRL. But NO. Also ANY idea about it.

Margarita ante porcos.

Best Regards

Nihil Roma Maius

[Nihil Roma Maius]

This is only what it looks like to me when I see you continue to waste your energy try to get his schematic.


J_P Truth!!!

I some part of Max' post I read something about "stressed".

Max: Is not normal to post 30 times in a day, expending energy. Go and work, and finish all your non-conclude open projects, or part of these.

Res, non verba.

Best regards

Nihil Roma Maius

[J_Player]

***** VOTE NOW *****
LET DEMOCRACY WORK FOR YOU!

1. is halo real or fake idea? Halo is REAL/FAKE
2. Is halo good for metal detectors? Good/bad for metal detector
3. Is halo good for long range locators? Good/bad for LRL

Post your votes below so we can use democracy to decide if halo works!


So far, this is the vote count:
3 votes Halo is real.
0 votes Halo is fake.

3 votes Halo is good for metal detector.
0 votes Halo is bad for metal detector.

2 votes Halo is good for LRL.
0 votes Halo is bad for LRL.

1 vote Halo is good for electronic LRL.
1 vote don't know if halo is good for LRL.

Make sure your voice is heard! Final ballots will be counted in less than 8 hours.

The results of this democratic vote will be used to determine whether halo works or not. Democracy is the final proof. If you don't like the final halo law, then don't complain unless you voted! Post your vote before the ballot closes!

Best wishes,
J_P

[Rudy]

Thanks Esteban.

[Seden]

Good denezins of the world,I was looking up patents by one of my heroes-Anthony Barringer and came across his latest discovery. If you'll lookup patent #7,002,349-goto column 4,sentences 20-25 and then goto column 7 sentences 57-60 and finally column 8 sentences 23-31. The author mentions being able to detect polarized formations,be it oil or minerals,so Estebans claim to detecting a voltage gradient is observed here (or somewhat related). Also check out the introduction of section 2 sentences 13-28 whereby he explains the benefit of using .1hz-3hz over the usual AFMAG freqs. and how this system is used for the detection of induced polarization.
So let's see here,what icons could I sarcastically add,hmm:razz: :lol: :angry: :D :nono: :rolleyes: :shocked: . There,that ought to do it.

Randy

P.S. It would be wise to read the whole thing and look at the figures.

[J_Player]

It should be further noted that all of the above expressions of electric signals 40 increase rapidly in amplitude at frequencies of 1 Hz and lower due to corresponding increases in amplitude of the telluric currents. The subject airborne exploration system 10 can clearly detect these effects of high contrast when using the water sensors 18 for detecting electric fields in a frequency bandwidth of 40 Hz down to 0.01 Hz....Hmmmm.... Interesting...