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Mike(Mont)
05-18-2007, 02:42 PM
Just curious if anyone has any info on the Magnacast 5000 from Vernell Electronics at http://www.vrdetectors.com This locator unit has an electronic receiver. I spoke to someone who owns one and he said you can also use L-rods with it. This person said he had used other LRL equipment, some he had bought from K****co metal detector distributor, but the Magnacast worked.

Mike(Mont)
05-18-2007, 03:09 PM
I guess I am wondering what is "Forward Gauss"?

svenax
05-18-2007, 06:02 PM
I'm wondering that too. I also noticed an awful lot of trademarked terms on their site, such as "scan gun" and "standard six". A quick search on the US patent Office site shows that none of the terms indicated as trademarks - not even the company name - were in fact registered. Now, that has no relevance for if the machine works or not, but I think it is a bit strange nonetheless. But perhaps I as a foreigner don't understand how US trademarks work.

J_Player
05-18-2007, 09:25 PM
In the USA, we have 50 separate states which have their own registries for corporations and trademarks, as well as the federal government which is a separate entity from any state. When a trademark is registered in a single state, it becomes protected in that state, but a federal trademark registration will protect a trademark in all 50 states.

Since Vernell electronics is located in Saratosa Florida, we can check VERNELL ELECTRONICS, INC at the Florida Division of Corporations web page: http://www.sunbiz.org/corinam.html

At the Florida Division of Corporations website, we find two entries for VERNELL ELECTRONICS, INC. Both are registered to WILLIAM DUNNING at 7224 EDENVILLE DRIVE, SARASOTA FL 34243. The first entry shows inactive status with the last corporate event being ADMIN DISSOLUTION FOR ANNUAL REPORT on the date of 10-01-2004. We also find a document that shows the name was changed to Bill Dunning, Inc. on June 24, 2003. The second entry for VERNELL ELECTRONICS, INC shows that on 9-06-2006, the corporation was reactivated.

When we repeat the same search for trademarks, we find that none of the trademarks listed on the Vernell website are registered with the state of Florida. The appearance is that it is not true that these trademarks are registered. It may be possible they are registered with some other agency, but not with the State of Florida or the US federal government.

"Forward gauss" does not exist in any science that utilizes magnetism except on the web page of Vernell Electronics. It appears that William Dunning made up this word and published it on his web page with a trademark symbol next to it in order to make people believe it is a registered proprietary technology rather than a word he made up.

When we look at the products William Dunning is selling, they appear to be suspiciously similar to some products that were tested by Carl, and were determined not to find treasures. What is different about the Dunning detectors is they contain electronic boxes with more sophisticated displays connected to the same equipment as other LRL manufacturers sell.

I have to wonder if these detectors can really locate anything as claimed by William Dunning. He has detailed a number of metal detecting technologies that most electronics engineers and geophysists have never heard of. I wonder if it is a good idea to test his machines before paying money for one of them. If William Dunning's detectors actually work, perhaps he would be willing to offer a money-back guarantee if you are not satisfied that they are finding the gold, siver and diamonds that he claims they will locate.

Mike(Mont)
05-19-2007, 05:16 PM
Actually I was hoping to hear from someone who had actually used one. I'm not interested in personal attacks--the trademark is of no concern to me because I am not a competing manufacturer. I read an old post that Carl had a VR2000. This appears to be an earlier version of the Magnacast. He said he couldn't get it to work. That alone means nothing to me. The unit could be malfunctioning, or like me on a bad day I can't get a metal detector to work all that well.

I've done a websearch on "Forward Gauss" and all I came up with was some mathematical formulas that I don't understand, but it doesn't appear that Vernon Rose "made up" this term. He developed the Forward Gauss technology before there was MFD. Dell said he used one.

J_Player
05-19-2007, 07:37 PM
Hi Mike(Mont),
If you re-read what I have written, you will find there are no personal attacks against anyone. I am also interested to learn whether this device works, and what is "forward gauss". Since there is little information for either of these questions, the only clues we have are to research the source and discover the facts around the devices and the people who developed them. The registries of the State of Florida and US Patent Office contain records, not attacks. These records are dependable for establishing the dates that certain events occurred, such as registering a trademark, patent, or corporation. They do not rely on hearsay, which is subject to making an error from lapse of memory, or falsification. When a person publishes any document where they are claiming a trademark, we expect they own that trademark. Thus, we would expect William Dunning owns the trademarks he claims to have registered.

However, I cannot find any sign that he owns these trademarks at all. Nowhere in the Florida, or the US government patent office. With no information on where this "trademarked" technology came from, it seems reasonable to suspect maybe Bill Dunning made it up. According to your statement, this suspicion is correct: He developed the Forward Gauss technology before there was MFD.

It is not a personal attack to say that it appears Bill Dunning made up "forward gauss". It is simply a statement that this appears to be the source of where "forward gauss" came from, and it helps to answer the question that three of us have been wondering in our above posts. And this may be a false appearance if it is discovered some other person originated the term and technology. "Forward Gauss" very definitely is not a registered trademark in the US Patent office or the State of Florida. This is a simple matter of historical fact.

The math formulas you found in your search are not related to any work done by Bill Dunning. The math formulas relate to the Gauss-Siedel method of smoothing when using multigrid applications to solve linear systems associated with elliptical partial differential equations. In simple terms, it is a mathematical method to solve a calculus equation. It has no relation to metal detection or long range locating. This leads me to believe that Bill Dunning is the source of the concept and terminology of "forward gauss" as it relates to long range locating.

Dell Winders
05-19-2007, 10:41 PM
We define the forward flow of information for a. transmission delay d E N, as ... Gauss-Markov source the optimal nonanticipatory chan- ...


Jplayer, I don't if this means anything, but a quick search on Google brought up several headers listed about Forward Gauss transmission, Unfortunatly they don't link to any information. But, apparently Forward Gauss transmission is not a term invented by Dunning, as your expertise suggests. Dell

J_Player
05-20-2007, 12:41 AM
Hi Dell,
Yes, it means something. The reference you posted is one of many references that shows there is no other source of the term "Forward Gauss" other than William Dunning.

First, your allegation is false: Forward Gauss transmission is not a term invented by Dunning, as your expertise suggests. Dell The actual information shown on the Vernell website says the Magnacast5000 uses "FORWARD GAUSS technology". It makes no mention of any sort of gauss transmissions, nor did anyone else in this thread except you.

Secondly, you reference a paper quoting the "Gauss-Markov source" and drag a number of words out of context to assemble them as you see fit to prove your point. Are you aware that the Gauss-Markov source has nothing to do with forward or backward gauss or magnetism in general? Is it possible that the "Gauss-Markov source" in reality relates to programming source code and models used to minimize coding/decoding losses in low bit-rate data transmission of video signals? Is there some reason you failed to include the other references that tell exactly what "Gauss-Markov source" is? Anyone who reads the reports that reference Gauss-Markov source will quickly understand that this is a programmers source code model, not a technology. It is totally unrelated to metal detecting or LRL construction, and in fact there is no mention in any of those papers of "Forward Gauss" whatsoever. Read about "Gauss-Markov source" used as a programmer's coding/decoding model here:
http://www.arehna.di.uoa.gr/Eusipco2005/defevent/papers/cr1263.pdf
http://www.data-compression.com/vq.shtml
http://www.ee.bilkent.edu.tr/~signal/Nsip99/papers/57.pdf (http://www.ee.bilkent.edu.tr/%7Esignal/Nsip99/papers/57.pdf)

The appearance is this is another deliberate attempt where Dell is trying to interject misinformation to this discussion of "Forward Gauss". Or am I wrong? Is Dell so technically impaired that he can only post references that do not link to any information? :nono:

Now having established that Dell's reference is bogus, this still does not help us to understand what is "Forward Gauss", or whether the Magnacast 5000 works. This is because we have used process of elimination which left only William Dunning as the probable person who made up that term and technology. I suggest that instead of presuming what seems obvious, we should get the actual facts.

Why not let William Dunning come to the forum and give us the facts. He obviously knows the whole story about "Forward Gauss" and its trademarks, and his other LRL device trademarks. He can also give us more insight into how to use his LRL devices and satisfy us that they work or don't work before we consider buying one of them.

Clondike Clad
05-20-2007, 12:57 AM
:nono: :nono: :nono: :nono: :nono: :nono: :nono: :nono: :nono: :nono: :nono: on that misinformation.
We are lucky to have some smart people on this forum.:lol:

Dell Winders
05-20-2007, 03:45 AM
First, your allegation is false:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dell Winders
Forward Gauss transmission is not a term invented by Dunning, as your expertise suggests. Dell
Then, take first things first. I didn't make an allegation. I stated a fact.
You can apologize.
Why not let William Dunning come to the forum and give us the facts Who's stopping you? Dell

J_Player
05-20-2007, 04:36 AM
According to Dell winders, "my expertise" suggests Forward Gauss transmission is a term invented by Dunning. Now Dell, Why would you lie about this? Just to prove you are right? Can you show me where I or anybody else said anything about Gauss transmissions? I can find only you making a reference to gauss transmissions. Furthermore, your reference to "Forward Gauss transmission" leads us to a myriad of websites that publish studies of data transmission losses and programmers source code, not LRL technology.

The appearance is you are attempting to disseminate misinformation which will confuse people who are trying to understand William Dunning's trademarked "Forward Gauss" technology. Is this true? What is your purpose in obscuring facts in a tech forum? Why did you lead us to "Gauss-Markov source" websites that have nothing to do with the magnacast 5000 or "Forward Gauss"? Why did you re-arrange the words to make it appear that they pertained to the topic of this discussion?

You want me to apologize for your dissemination of misinformation? Forget it! I do not feel responsible for your ignorance or your deception. :nono: I have posted real links to real websites that tell all about your "Gauss-Markov source" information. They are free for anyone who wants to read them. You have contributed nothing of value to this discussion, only misinformation.

If you really expect an apology from me, post your complaint in the thread titled "Dell's complaints". I will be happy to address your demand for an apology there. This thread is to learn about the magnacast 5000.

Dell Winders
05-20-2007, 05:28 AM
O.K. now that you have had your tantrum, and made your accusations based on assumption, back to the beginning.

"Forward Gauss" is not a term invented by Dunning, as your expertise suggests.

You are right. Google is not the place to reference for correct information. We should should go directly to the source. I guess I shouldn't have worded my search for Forward Gauss "Transmitter", because you were talking about Forward Gauss "Technology".

You sure made a of fool out of me on that technicality. :thumb: Dell

J_Player
05-20-2007, 05:59 AM
Ok Dell,
Now maybe we can get back on topic. We are all trying to understand what "Forward Gauss" is. Nobody in this forum seems to know anything about it except you. "Forward Gauss" is not a term invented by Dunning, as your expertise suggests.
Since you are now saying that "Forward Gauss" is not a term invented by Dunning, can you tell us who did invent this term, how you know he did not invent this term, or any other information that pertains to "Forward Gauss"? I still think you are wrong, and that Dunning did invent the term "Forward Gauss", as Mike(Mont)'s post suggests.

Dell Winders
05-20-2007, 08:25 AM
I have made it clear from the beginning on this forum that I don't know anything about electronics and therefore I have no idea what "Forward Gauss" means. My knowledge, if any, is in the field use of such products.

That is why I niavely said, "I don't know if this means anything" and pasted directly from google. You twisted, misconstrued, made accusations and threw a tantrum.

Carl, is the puppet master pulling your strings and he has already declared years ago that Vernell, products do not work and are a Scam. It's in his reports.

So why your pretense of investigating what has already been declared a Scam, bogus, and Wallet mining by a fellow scientific pretender catering to the same Skeptic cult agenda?? Dell

svenax
05-20-2007, 09:38 AM
OK, Dell, the Google snippet you found does indeed have nothing to do with the alleged Forward Gauss Technology that the Magnacast contraption is said to use. Let's agree to that and move on. Googling the term "Forward Gauss" with the quotes shows no relevant links except for those pointing to the Vernell site or a number of asian trade sites selling this contraption. Here's one:

Shanghai TianXun Electronic Equipment Co., Ltd.
http://cnmetaldetector.com/class.asp?SmallClass=&bigclass=50

I had a peek at the users manual, avaliable at the Vernell site, to see if it explained the Forward Gauss thing. No, it did not - it didn't even mention the term. But it did say that the device is a AM transmitter/reciever, that it can be affected by normal radio transmissions, and that any warranty issues are to be handled by Kellyco ...

Qiaozhi
05-20-2007, 11:49 AM
Like J Player, my suspicion is that the term "Forward Gauss" has been commandered by Dunning to add credibility to an otherwise dubious detecting technique.
Karl Friedrich Gauss was a German astronomer and physicist who is most famous for his contributions to the mathematical theory of magnetism. This is probably where Dunning originally derived the idea, although "Forward Gauss" is more related to optics than magnetism. By some sort of twisted logic, a LRL scam could be "based on" this concept, especially when you look at geometric diagrams used in the derivation of thin lens formulas. I guess the "Forward Gauss" idea (as applied to Dunning's LRLs) is that a focal point is created at a distance that somehow focusses a signal line into the device.
Yet another example of disjointed thinking, and hocus pocus pseudoscience. :frown:

Mike(Mont)
05-20-2007, 02:15 PM
You might be on to something here with the focused optics analogy. I read in the download for the user's manual that the Magnacast 5000 is able to set the locating range--each setting is for a particular distance (in ten-meter sections). That appears to be some sort of focusing. Of course any waves in the electromagnetic spectrum can be focused, not just light waves. I also know that energy can be contained/routed along magnetic flux lines.

J_Player
05-20-2007, 02:26 PM
"Forward Gauss" is more related to optics than magnetism.
Interesting idea. Do you suppose there are optics inside the "Scan Gun" receiving antenna that comes with the magnacast 5000?

Clondike Clad
05-20-2007, 02:27 PM
I did not know about your electriccs education.
I was thinking you made your LRL UNIT.
dELL THE MAKERS OF YOUR LRL UNITS COULD BE THE REAL SCAMMERS AND USING YOU TO SELL THEM.

J_Player
05-20-2007, 02:59 PM
the Magnacast 5000 is able to set the locating range--each setting is for a particular distance (in ten-meter sections). That appears to be some sort of focusing. Of course any waves in the electromagnetic spectrum can be focused, not just light waves.
Maybe you figured it out. Cathode ray tubes routinely use charged metal aperatures to focus the electron beam, and can also use magnetic coils to focus as an alternative. I noted that Dunning has a background in television technology, which would mean he is familiar with these focusing methods used for electron beams.

According to the Vernell literature, the magnacast 5000 contains an AM transmitter as well as the "Scan gun" receiver. This "Scan Gun" has a cylindrical housing which could easily accommodate charged plates or coils that may be related to the "Forward Gauss" principle in some way.

Carl-NC
05-20-2007, 04:57 PM
Sorry, been on the road a while...

Yes, I own a VR2000, the immediate predecessor to the VR5000. Both do not use dowsing rods. I also own a VR800, but it is a "Dell Systems" version*. It uses dowsing rods, like other low-end Vernell VR units, and there is no question it is a piece of garbage that cannot detect anything but gravity. The fact that Vernell sells these units is a huge strike against them, so before you give the VR5000 a chance, you should go ahead and assume it's a bogus device. Guilty until proven innocent.

Yes, the term "Forward Gauss" is an invention of Vernon Rose (Bill Dunning is his son-in-law, I believe). It's a nonsense term, sorta like saying "Forward Ohms" or "Forward Liters". We can safely assume it means absolutely nothing, toss it aside, and move on.

The question is, does the VR5000 work? I've never seen one, and never heard of anyone who owns one, so I can only go by the results of the VR2000, which supposedly uses the same concept. And in the brief tests I conducted a while back, the VR2000 would not detect gold. In fact, it appears to just pick up stray RF, much like what I've found with the Mineoro FG80.

Other priorities have kept me from doing any more testing on the VR2000, but based on what I've seen from it, the FG80, and the Gold Gun, it looks as if radio-receiver LRLs are becoming the preferred type of fantasy treasure locators. I'll try to pull out my VR2000 and take another look. Will also have it at the Treasure Expo for anyone who wants to give it a try.

- Carl

*Dell insists that Vernell made the unit, which may or may not be true... I can only go by what's written all over the unit and the documentation, which is "Dell Systems"... but it's probably identical to Vernell's VR800.

Dell Winders
05-20-2007, 06:44 PM
I did not know about your electriccs education.
I was thinking you made your LRL UNIT.
dELL THE MAKERS OF YOUR LRL UNITS COULD BE THE REAL SCAMMERS AND USING YOU TO SELL THEM.


I may not have a formal education, but I do have 25 years of field experience in the use of so called LRL, and remote sensing Frequency Discrimination to know if this tool, works, or doesn't work, and to what extent, and the field limitations of all the electronic circuits that I have tested and used.

Yes, I do build my own Frequency Discriminators and build and sell them to other Treasure Hunters, on request. If I did not use them myself for 25 years and they didn't work as I claim, I sure as heck would not sell them to my fellow Treasure Hunters.

I purchased 2 of the Vernell, Forward Gauss instruments with electronic receivers and used them successfully from a boat, aircraft, and on land until operating conditions deteriorated affecting the reliability of the instrument making it impractical for my use in 1988.

What has already been done with the field use of LRL, and Frequency Discrimination, can be repeated under the same conditions, and that is a fact.

Carl-NC
05-20-2007, 06:55 PM
Dell, I deleted all the name-calling in your post. You've been warned about this before... from here on out I just delete the whole post.

If you can't discuss topics without calling people names, then please don't post here any more.

- Carl

Dell Winders
05-20-2007, 07:08 PM
That's O.K. Carl. Please delete the remenants you left of my post.

I understand your prediciment. I know you don't want to let truth, or fact get in the way of the Skeptic agenda.

Since you have proven the Mineoro FG-80 doesn't work have you tried to collect the Mineoro $50,000 challenge? Looks like you are a winner? Dell

svenax
05-20-2007, 07:58 PM
I purchased 2 of the Vernell, Forward Gauss instruments with electronic receivers and used them successfully from a boat, aircraft, and on land until operating conditions deteriorated affecting the reliability of the instrument making it impractical for my use in 1988.

So you are saying that the device does not work in present conditions? And what is it that has changed in operating conditions, causing the device to stop working?

Clondike Clad
05-20-2007, 09:06 PM
I
Yes, I do build my own Frequency Discriminators and build and sell them to other Treasure Hunters, on request.

Can you build us a test circuit like Carl so we can prove him wrong????????
I would be the first to post all on the circuits good or bad.

Dell Winders
05-20-2007, 09:29 PM
NO! I said and meant exactly as I posted. "making it impractical for my use in 1988".

Is there not enough intelligent comprehension here to understand the english language without my having to repeat, or explain what I say? Dell

Clondike Clad
05-20-2007, 10:43 PM
Ok i won't ask but you don't need to be hard on us.:angry:
People don't like the way you talk to them

J_Player
05-20-2007, 10:51 PM
I purchased 2 of the Vernell, Forward Gauss instruments with electronic receivers and used them successfully from a boat, aircraft, and on land until operating conditions deteriorated affecting the reliability of the instrument making it impractical for my use in 1988.

It seems hard to guess what "operating conditions" deteriorated when Dell refuses to provide an answer. He has clarified that it was not practical to use in 1988, but we have no idea what operating conditions deteriorated, or when they deteriorated. They could have deteriorated gradually over a long period of time, or suddenly. We also don't know if the operating conditions recovered from their deteriorated state since that unknown time. "Operating conditions deteriorated" could mean any of the following:

*A period of solar flares or other atmospheric conditions changed resulting in unreliable performance.
*The device was struck by lightning, affecting the devices reliability.
*The device was rained on, affecting the devices reliability.
*Somebody dropped the device, affecting the devices reliability.
*The device was submerged, affecting the devices reliability.
*High temperatures caused the device to stop working properly.
*Excessive radio broadcast interference made the device unreliable.
*Interfering power lines were erected in the location where he wanted to use it.
*A severe storm developed at the location where he wanted to use it in 1988.

But more likely it was some other operating conditions that only Dell knows.

svenax
05-20-2007, 10:55 PM
NO! I said and meant exactly as I posted. "making it impractical for my use in 1988".
Well, ok, but why was it impractical? Nothing to do with the functioning of the device then?
Is there not enough intelligent comprehension here to understand the english language without my having to repeat, or explain what I say?
You do realise that several of those who post here do not have English as first language, right?

Qiaozhi
05-20-2007, 11:30 PM
Interesting idea. Do you suppose there are optics inside the "Scan Gun" receiving antenna that comes with the magnacast 5000?
I very much doubt there is anything of interest inside this unit. :rolleyes:
It's tenuous relationship to Gauss is an insult to this eminent scientist.
By the way, you made a spelling mistake in your attached image. It should have said "Scam Gun". :lol:

J_Player
05-21-2007, 12:49 AM
I very much doubt there is anything of interest inside this unit. :rolleyes:
It's tenuous relationship to Gauss is an insult to this eminent scientist.

Actually, I have seen similar electronic "Gun" designs that do use optics. Automotive timing lights use a lens to focus a xenon flash tube light into a pseudo beam in front of the gun, using a very similar configuration to the "scan Gun". While it may appear to some the lens is also focusing some of the high voltage discharging in the xenon tube, I would disagree. But I think a lens would do a good job of focusing the light.

I wonder if you would find plastic castings inside the Scan Gun that were originally designed to mount timing light parts? Actually a close inspection of the photo shows what looks more like black PVC pipe parts glued together.

Clondike Clad
05-21-2007, 07:16 AM
Well, ok, but why was it impractical? Nothing to do with the functioning of the device then?

You do realise that several of those who post here do not have English as first language, right?
'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''
Mr. Winders has also stated that he has only a 6th grade education.

Now I understand :shocked:

Mike(Mont)
05-21-2007, 01:59 PM
Look at what happens right about 1988.
http://helios.izmiran.troitsk.ru/cosray/months.htm

As for the Scan Gun antenna, I assume it is a coil similar to the VR2000. There is a photo of one on the Mexico Trip page http://www.lrlman.com

Carl, the download instructions on the VR site show how to test the unit.

J_Player
05-21-2007, 07:36 PM
Interesting photos, Mike(Mont). After looking at the pictures of the magnacast 5000 and the VR 2000 Mexico trip pictures, It appears that the "Forward Gauss" machines are actually AM transmitters and special receiving antennas that locate places of varying signal strength. In addition to the scan gun, the VR 2000 and magnacast 5000 also contain a loop antenna which looks similar to the antennas used in radio direction finders. The loop antenna for the Magnacast 5000 is a larger rectangular antenna compared to the red square antenna shown on the VR 2000 photo.

From what I have seen in the photos and manual, it appears the "Forward Gauss" methods center around broadcasting an AM radio signal, then surveying the air out in front of the broadcast antenna for signal strength. Presumably, the signal will be stronger depending on the existence of a target in the ground. The two devices used to measure signal strength are the loop antenna, and the "Scan Gun". The loop antenna is probably a simple coil of wire designed to pick up the signal that was broadcast and allow a survey of where the strong signals areas are. The "Scan gun" does not give many clues just looking at it, but I would think maybe it works similar to a RF sniffer that is tuned to the broadcast frequency. Perhaps it performs a functions similar to the loop antenna, but with finer resolution, or maybe it is designed to pick up a RF signal that is to be demodulated.

Dell Winders
05-21-2007, 07:50 PM
That would be my wild guess since many of the frequencies used for Frequency Discrimination are within the AM range. Dell

J_Player
05-21-2007, 08:13 PM
A closer inspection of the "Forward Gauss" machines shows that the VR 2000 is not using a "Scan Gun" on its receiver, only a loop antenna to pick up the signal. The loop antenna on the magnacast 5000 is apparently the transmitting antenna, not to be used at the reciever for surveying the signal strength. I presume the VR 2000 also has a similar loop antenna for transmitting the signal.

It appears that in the magnacast 5000, the old receiving loop antenna of the VR 2000 was replaced with the "Scan Gun" receiving antenna that was made to be adjustable.

Judging from the use of the Vernell machines, I would suspect the broadcast frequencies to be at the AM broadcast band or lower.

Mike(Mont)
05-25-2007, 02:09 PM
I'm still interested in any info people have about the Forward Gauss technology. The Vernell website says the original version was quite successful. I suspect there must be some improvements now with the Magnacast 5000 or else locating conditions are acceptable again?

BTW, I read on a Chinese website that the VR1000B uses 400-3000 Mhz so any AM reception would probably be some lower harmonics. I wonder if one of those spectrum analyzers could be used as a receiver for a DIY system? I guess you would need to know how to build the transmitting antenna or maybe use a walkie-talkie for the transmitter.

J_Player
05-25-2007, 08:46 PM
400-3000 mhz is pretty much all of the UHF spectrum. Devices that use these frequencies include UHF television, cordless phones, amateur radio, mobile radios, radar, radio astronomy, cell phones, satellite radio, wireless LANs, and microwave ovens. The problem of building a receiver is you should first get an idea of the receiving frequency before constructing the circuitry and antennas. A quick test (if the actual frequency happens to fall in the UHF TV band), is to use an old-style portable UHF TV with an analog tuner to try to pick up the signal. If the VR1000B sends an AM signal in the UHF TY band, then you should be able to see some video patterns on the screen when you tune to the transmitter frequency. You may even be able to use this portable TV to survey relative signal strength in an area in front of the transmitter. But this works only if the transmitter is sending a frequency that the TV can receive.

Since the "Scan Gun" receiver is only used on the newer Magnacast 5000, I would think this locator uses a higher frequency than the earlier VR1000. The reason is because the "Scan Gun" is physically smaller than the large loop antenna used in the earlier machines, which leads me to suspect it contains a loop antenna to pick up a smaller wave, or higher frequency.

At this point, it may be a good idea to get some help from Carl to test and see what kind of signal the VR2000 puts out. ie: What frequency or frequencies, the radiated signal strength, and what sort of modulation. This information will provide good clues to what kind of receiving equipment would work best to pick up a signal from the transmitter. The antenna design and receiving electronics depends on what frequency, the transmitting technique, and the modulation being used. I would be particularly interested to know if there are any constant or varying lower frequencies being sent as an amplitude modulation signal, possibly in the 500 khz to 3 mhz range.

Mike(Mont)
03-09-2008, 04:01 PM
Figured I ought to post this. I modified the Magnacast 5000 (VR5000) with a fine tuner on the RSL control. I used a 5K three-turn pot in line with the original 1M pot. This greatly improves the tuning but I wish I had gone with a 10K ten-turn. Now I can set the RSL as close as possible to threshold then fine tune it so it is slightly over threshold--one click per second is recommended. I could never come close to this previously. Either there was no clicking or clicking much too fast. From what I can see in the photos, the VR2000 uses the same receiver (not sure about this).

ALEX.356
05-19-2010, 01:43 PM
A year and a half has passed, dear friends, and nobody is interested in this subject anymore ???
Nobody has purchased this contraption , and has no experience gained with it ???
Mike's last post is leting me believe that he owns one and tries to modify it , too.
BUT I would expect to read more about results obtained with it , performance , what the cost is e.t.c.

Kind regards,

Alex

J_Player
05-23-2010, 01:43 AM
The Magnacast 5000 is sold at the Vernell Electronics website for $3350, but is on special sale for $1802.50: https://vernellelectronics.safenetserver.com/products.cfm?v=0.9119261592&CFID=3954725&CFTOKEN=90283851

Or you can buy one in Turkey for 4.150 EUR here: http://defineyurdu.alfahosting.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=58&Itemid=123

Maybe there are no new posts about the Magnacast 5000 because nobody wanted to pay $1801.50 US or 4.150 EU to find out if they work or not. :rolleyes:

Best wishes,
J_P

Mike(Mont)
05-23-2010, 06:26 AM
Hi Alex,

I saw your post but have been working long hours and not much time to reply.

The VR5000 Magnacast is a powerful unit. Maybe 50 or 100 times more powerful than the frequency generators I have used. The electronic reciever is fairly accurate, but L-rods are better for pinpointing. I found I can hold my arms out (parallel with the signal line) and feel it without even using the receiver. I first noticed this when using the receiver I would feel something similar to an electric current running through me (mainly in my hands). I haven't been out with it much but I did get out to a city park earlier this year and found a couple gold items.

Like any treasure hunting equipment, it takes practice to learn how to use it. I know some skeptics think they should be able to use one without any practice, but this is just due to their inflated ego. I spent quite a few hours learning. One thing about it is you can put a visible target out and work with it until you get it right but eventually you need to practice on a hidden target.

Probably the biggest down side to the unit besides being sensitive to interference is it takes quite a while for the signal line to develop enough for the electronic receiver to detect it. The instructions say to wait fifteen minutes after the power is turned on. If you know how to use L-rods, you can pick up the signal line MUCH quicker, like one minute.

Theseus
05-23-2010, 01:19 PM
Hi Alex,
If you know how to use L-rods, you can pick up the signal line MUCH quicker, like one minute.

Exactly how long does it take to "know how to use L-rods"?

What is involved in the "knowing process"?

How do you "know" when you have accomplished that level of knowing?

If you don't know how to use L-rods, will that keep the so-called signal lines from EVER materializing?

:rolleyes:

Mike(Mont)
05-23-2010, 02:21 PM
Some people obviously NEVER learn to use L-rods. I would suggest an absolute minimum of forty hours, but more would be better. It's not a matter of being able to walk without the rods swinging back and forth, it's learning to feel what they are telling you and not having to think about it. Yes, it's the old "walking and chewing gum at the same time". Some skeptics really think they are above this but that's where the inflated ego shows it's ugly head. If you have a problem you need to admit it to yourself or you will never overcome it. Hard-core skepticism is a real mental disorder. I've said it before it is the difference between Heaven and Hell. You might think I am joking or exaggerating, but I couldn't be more serious.

As for the signal line developing, this has nothing to do with a person's ability to use L-rods. Someone who is skilled with the rods is going to be able to detect a signal line much sooner than with an electronic receiver.

Save you typing fingers because I will not be replying to any more skeptic garbage.

Bill512
05-23-2010, 04:40 PM
Mike , finally at what range are the operating frequences of the Magnacast 5000? Looking the coil i assume that are at the audio range (or not?).

Mike(Mont)
05-23-2010, 07:11 PM
Can't help you with that one, Bill. My frequency counter will not register, but an AM radio will pick up a tone that is obviously in the audio range. Quite a while back Dell talked about HID units operating in three different frequencies. I'd have to go back and check on it. I've seen ads from Asia that mention (pirated units?) 4-400 MHz and another mentions ultrasonic range.

"...The only instruments on the market that fully discriminate are the H.I.D. (Harmonic induction discrimination) These transmit & receive (3) timed, synchronized signals that respond to the Electron, Neutron, and Atomic Weight of the element. All other instruments on the market respond to the Electron only."

Qiaozhi
05-23-2010, 10:04 PM
"...The only instruments on the market that fully discriminate are the H.I.D. (Harmonic induction discrimination) These transmit & receive (3) timed, synchronized signals that respond to the Electron, Neutron, and Atomic Weight of the element. All other instruments on the market respond to the Electron only."
Also known as "Continually Replenished Alternating Potential". :razz:

ALEX.356
05-27-2010, 09:26 PM
:) Dear J Player and Mike,
thank you for your replies.
Mike, I notice that you have put quite an effort and time to learn your Magnacast 5000. May I ask: have you ever tried it on a big target at a serious distance away ??? say 300m. 500 m. ?

Have you felt the difference between a buried target and a visible metalic object on the ground [ say a car...] Does it respond to the unburied target as well...???

Your answer will be a great help, dear friend.

Kind regards,

Alex

J_Player
05-28-2010, 07:42 AM
:) Dear J Player and Mike,
thank you for your replies.
Mike, I notice that you have put quite an effort and time to learn your Magnacast 5000. May I ask: have you ever tried it on a big target at a serious distance away ??? say 300m. 500 m. ?

Have you felt the difference between a buried target and a visible metalic object on the ground [ say a car...] Does it respond to the unburied target as well...???

Your answer will be a great help, dear friend.

Kind regards,

AlexI have never used a Magnacast 5000.
I have no idea what a Magnacast 5000 does in the field.

My basis for determining what to expect from a Magnacast 5000 is seated in the reports I have read that describe the internal components. ie: An op amp without a power amplifier broadcasting an unknown frequency alleged to be in the UHF range, and a coil receiver used to survey a plot of land where a variety of specific metals might be buried.

From what I have learned, more broadcast power would be necessary, and a method of discriminating metals would also be necessary, which does not seem to be present in the electronics of the Magnacast 5000.

Based on pure interpretation of the advertising propaganda for the Magnacast 5000, I would speculate that at best, there exists a scanner chip in the circuitry that jumps to different frequencies, like to a broadcast scanner that will lock onto any strong signal as it scans, and hold that frequency until it becomes weak. Then it would jump to the next frequency until it finds another signal above the threshold. But I could be wrong about this. It is only speculation that they upgraded the 555 timer/oscillator to operate in a frequency scanning mode after the scanner chips became available for a cheap price.

The idea to actually test a Magnacast 5000 in the field seems to me like a waste of time for two reasons:

1. The people who manufacture the Magnacast 5000 (Vernell Electronics) has a long history of producing products that do not show substantial results for the people who use these products.* This means that people who use metal detectors are known to show recovered treasures in amounts that total thousands of times more than what users of Vernell Electronics products show.

2. The electronic circuits that have been shown from disected Vernell products appear to be extremely ameteurish in their design and in their construction. After seeing photos of the inside of a VR-800, I would not pay more than $20 US for any Vernell Electronics product. The only reason it may be worth $20 to me is for museum display value -- not to find treasure.

The simple answer to your question is no. I have not used the Magnacast 5000.

The more pertinent answer is:
If I believed that I could detect the location of hidden metals by broadcasting RF and surveying a field with a loop antenna, then I would build a viable RF transmitter that had a wide beam angle, and I would build a sensitive receiver with a suitable size receiver coil to survey the area where I thought the metal is hidden. Remember, the Vernell transmitters I have seen so far use a single op amp oscillator with the output pin connected to either a metal rod stuck in the ground, or a small antenna set on the ground.

If you thought this theory worked, wouldn't you prefer to use a real transmitter?


Best wishes,
J_P

ALEX.356
05-28-2010, 12:14 PM
Dear friend,
I appreciate the time you take to answer my questions.

" wouldn't I prefer to use a real transmitter" . . .?
Yes , I would.
Obviously you are making a hint that Magnacast 5000 in NOT a real transmitter. . . As I am not in a position to know...I ask what is the output of this transmitter ? Isn't it written in the manual ?
What would you consider enough output in such a case ?

I do take seriously what Mike says about it , that it is perhaps 50-100 times stronger than the MFD s he has tested. Kindly comment on this.

Cordial regards,

ALEX.

J_Player
05-28-2010, 04:58 PM
From what I have read, the Magnacast 5000 is similar to the other MFDs that are manufactured by Vernell Electronics, and is a simple variation of the theme. It is hard for me to believe any of the Vernell equipment can work because there is not a single incidence of someone demonstrating it locating unknown treasures in front of witnesses.

But the best evidence I have that the transmitter is simply a signal generator with no power amplifier or tuning coil is the circuit diagram shown by Carl NC when he opened the VR-800 MFD (a similar MFD manufactured by Vernell). This was a predecessor to the Magnacast 5000 which also is claimed to work on the same "forward gauss" detection principle as the other MFDs that Vernell manufactures. The difference is the 5000 comes with the coil receiver instead of L rods to scan the field. See Carl's report for the VR 800 here: http://www.geotech1.com/cgi-bin/pages/common/index.pl?page=lrl&file=reports/vr800/index.dat

Here is the VR 800 circuit. Do you think you can broadcast an RF signal if you connect Vout to a rod stuck in the ground, or to a small antenna set on the ground?
Wouldn't a real transmitter work better, even if it is only a cheap $10 pocket transmitter?

http://www.geotech1.com/pages/lrl/reports/vr800/vr800_6.gif

A close look at the circuit will show there is no RF power stage or tuning coils. This circuit is a simple square wave signal generator that is optimized to create a product that can switch on lights for a nameplate that says copper, gold, silver lead, tin and diamond. If you wanted a circuit that does this, can't you build the exact same circuit for less than $5?
Do you really believe the Magnacast 5000 has high tech circuitry inside and a real transmitter?
Why not open one and see what's inside?
Do you think you will find what everyone else found inside the Vernell products?

http://www.geotech1.com/pages/lrl/reports/vr800/vr800_2.jpg

More evidence came when Dell Winders had something to say about the Vernell locator concerning his failure to win the Randi prize by locating coins hidden in the sand: ...conditions deteriorated affecting the reliability of the instrument making it impractical for my use in 1988But looking at the circuit, my opinion is conditions never existed that would make any Vernell product practical for use by anyone except a rich person who wanted a plastic box with 6 leds on the front, or a child who wanted a toy to play with.

Best wishes,
J_P

ALEX.356
05-28-2010, 09:50 PM
My friend ,
you oblige me with all your effort to assist me.

Question : Has anyone else attempted to make a similar devise on a more serious basis ? i.e with a real transmitter and directional receiver ?

Kind regards,

ALEX

Geo
05-29-2010, 05:24 AM
My friend ,
you oblige me with all your effort to assist me.

Question : Has anyone else attempted to make a similar devise on a more serious basis ? i.e with a real transmitter and directional receiver ?

Kind regards,

ALEX

Hi Alex.
There is a problem with the directional receiver. It must have very-very narrow bandwidth so to minimise the noise

Regards:)

ALEX.356
05-29-2010, 11:21 AM
and is it so difficult to acomplish , my friend ? [ narrow bandwidth ]

ALEX.

J_Player
05-29-2010, 12:12 PM
My friend ,
you oblige me with all your effort to assist me.

Question : Has anyone else attempted to make a similar devise on a more serious basis ? i.e with a real transmitter and directional receiver ?

Kind regards,

ALEXThe method of using a loop antenna to survey an area that is exposed to RF is a standard way that geologists determine what is under the ground. They carry a hand-held loop antenna connected to their receiver while they walk across the area they want to survey. The transmitter is usually a large VLF transmitter hundreds of miles away operated by the military or some government which broadcasts at a frequency between 5 KHz to 30 Khz, or sometimes higher. If there is no reliable VLF transmitter nearby, then the geologist may set up his own portable VLF transmitter to send RF into the ground for his survey. When the geologist is done recording the readings of his survey, he can make a map to show a diagram of the geological structures beneath the soil. The geologist is interested in mapping rock formations and other geologic structures, not hunting treasure.

This geologist's method is the basis for the idea that treasure hunters use for detecting metals under the ground when using an RF receiver coil survey. Early experimenters set up loop antenna transmitters and used loop receiver coils to find large buried metal objects a century ago. Today, experimenters have built detectors in various configurations that send out VLF signals and check the signal with a loop coil receiver. You can find some technical information about how to do this in this thread: http://www.geotech1.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16216

In the second half of the thread, WM6 and Seden become involved to help with their knowledge from their experience in ameteur radio, and explain some important details about the equipment, frequencies and power needed to expect some response. You will also see others posted ideas which include a few experimental projects that are related to the loop coil survey method.

There are also some other threads that show more about this.

Best wishses,
J_P

fenixdigger
05-29-2010, 06:50 PM
Mike; I am considering getting one of these units. A couple of questions, how well does it really locate, what was the effect of the modification, and how quick can you locate something from the point of getting out of the car?
thanks, <><> LT

Geo
05-30-2010, 05:51 AM
and is it so difficult to acomplish , my friend ? [ narrow bandwidth ]

ALEX.


Simply, it is not so easy.
It is something like EMFAD but for small or medium size objects we need more sensitive device

Regards:)

Mike(Mont)
05-30-2010, 02:19 PM
I'll try to address a few issues here. First off I want to say the so-called "electronics experts" do not seem to understand how an MFD works. Either that or they are intentionally trying to muddy the waters. I have tried about forty times to get people to read the book "Supersensonics" by Christopher Hills. Instead of embracing the book and author (In my opinion Hills is the most knowledgable person on the entire subject.) you get people attacking his wife and calling him a crackpot among other things. I don't have time to go into detail about his, but I highly recommend the book to anyone who claims to have electronics knowledge. Very briefly, the signal line that develops in resonance with the target acts like a type of antenna. Of course with L-rods, the receiver is the human body, brain, nervous system, and consciousness necessary to "make sense" of it all. Even when using an electronic receiver, the person needs a brain and a few mental skills to interpret what is happening. Anyone who tries to compare this to a metal detector is either deceptive or --deleted--. You cannot compare the two.

When I gave the figure of fifty to one-hundred times more powerful, I have to admit this is only an estimate. I have not actually measured the output in wattage. What I did was to hold an AM radio near a frequency generator and approximate the distance I could receive the audible tone, then compared this with the Magnacast. I didn't actually even measure the distance, but it was somewhere in that range.

I haven't tried to detect large objects like cars from a distance, but I see no problems.

When I went to a city park, I set up the transmitter twice and used a metal detector at the point of intersection. To do everything properly according to the instructions, it can easily take an hour or more.

I also want to point out I am not a salesman. I have no idea what your abilities of learning to use this device are. I don't even use it the way the instructions recommend. I don't care to spend hours training someone "for the good of society". If you buy one and can't get it to work, I can give you a few pointers (go back and read some of my posts) but you are on your own. It's actually more complicated than using L-rods, and the emotional variable is not completely eliminated. If you have a negative outlook (skeptic) I would not recommend one. A skeptic can easily talk themself out of just about anything.

That's all I have for now.

Mike(Mont)
05-30-2010, 02:23 PM
One more note here. For some stupid reason some people think that if a device works they are somehow guaranteed to find treasure. Well, that's just not the case. And blaming the device solves nothing.

Mike(Mont)
05-30-2010, 02:59 PM
Much of the argument against MFD has centered around power output (wattage). This is about as faulty logic as saying horsepower is the only factor for a racing car. Most people in the know realize this and it is evident in the low power of the devices that are on the market past and present. Electronic receivers appear to require more power.

Mike(Mont)
05-30-2010, 03:13 PM
I posted this quite a while back. There is an article from Borderlands research about Ground Antennas that might shed some light on this. The article is packed with interesting, even bizarre info. Observation #3 talks about the act of listening to a station being tuned can actually increase the reception. Also lunar phases have an effect on which direction the signals can be more strongly detected.

J_Player
05-30-2010, 10:16 PM
Hmmm.... We find some answers:
When I gave the figure of fifty to one-hundred times more powerful, I have to admit this is only an estimate. I have not actually measured the output in wattage.
Assuming this measurement was made between a non-Vernell product and the Magnacast 5000, we are comparing the power transmitted into the air when you put the output of the 555 op amp on a small antenna set on the ground, and the power measured when you connect the output to an L-rod. We assume that both signal generators are 555 op amps sending a small, unamplified audio frequency square wave to whatever you connect them. However, we don't know how the 555 is coupled to the L-rod, or what current limiting components could be impeding the power output. In short, we don't know what circuits we are comparing. We only know Mike(Mont) says he can hear some interference on his AM radio at a longer distance from the Magnacast 5000. Do you suppose it would be good to see some microvolt readings taken in the air at different distances?

This brings to mind another interesting detail. When we hear there is AM radio sound interference, this is a common indication that the signal generator is operating in the audio or VLF range, not UHF. In fact, this AM audio tone was also described by Dell Winders and others when they set a radio near their 555 signal generators adjusted to frequencies less than 6 KHz. Judging from what Mike(Mont) has told us, I am becoming more convinced the Magnacast 5000 contains no RF transmitter at all, and is simply a 555 square wave generator operating in a range below 6 KHz.

So why would we use a signal generator to locate metals?
The theory is because various metals are claimed to vibrate at the frequency you set the signal generator for, and will establish a "signal line" between the signal generator and the buried metal that is vibrating at the same frequency.

But now we learn this theory is not really true. As Mike(Mont) explains: "Someone who is skilled with the rods is going to be able to detect a signal line much sooner than with an electronic receiver"
...Of course with L-rods, the receiver is the human body, brain, nervous system, and consciousness necessary to "make sense" of it all. Even when using an electronic receiver, the person needs a brain and a few mental skills to interpret what is happening. Anyone who tries to compare this to a metal detector is either deceptive or --deleted--. You cannot compare the two.
Now, we see it is not the signal generator that is responsible for sensing the signal line at all.
This is a line that is established in the mind of a person who has the idea there is a signal line -- not the equipment.
We now know the receiver is the human body, brain, nervous system, and consciousness.
So what is the signal generator for?

We know that in earlier days of medicine, doctors would often give patients sugar pills, telling them it is medicine that would help heal their specific ailment. And in many cases, the patient would heal after taking the sugar pill. In fact there is much literature published describing the effect of using placebos to describe how they can influence how a patient precieves he is healing after taking a placebo which he believes is medicine. What these reports don't focus on is that in many cases, the doctor may have seen in his diagnosis that the ailment had run its course, and the patient would heal shortly regardless of what further remdies were applied. Of course, the patient would become even more convinced he had a great doctor after taking the sugar pills and healing.

In any case, the placebo had no effect on the ailment, so it couldn't hurt the healing progress, and at best, the patient would become convinced he was using powerful medicine. Could this be the principle of the signal generator in a MFD locator? Does the treasure hunter become convinced the signal generator will help him find buried metal, then look longer and harder until he finds something buried to further convince him the signal generator located the treasure?

Not according to Mike(Mont)'s debunkering of "signal line" theory. The L-rod is the antenna, and the receiver is definitely the human body, brain, nervous system, and consciousness necessary to "make sense" of it all. So we see, according to Mike(Mont) that no signal generator will locate buried treasure - It is a human body that does the locating. If you become convinced that a signal generator with no power stage can help you to locate treasure, then you must have this signal generator to help you believe that you will find treasure. This is good medicine for your mind and nervous system to become attuned to the "signal line". But never doubt that the signal generator is helping you find treasure. If you think of it as simply another sugar pill, it definitely will stop working! Maybe you keep this signal generator nearby while you dig more and more holes to locate some buried metal. Hopefully you will find more buried metal than a person who has no signal generator or L-rods and who digs the same number of holes.

A final thought: If you expect to find a lot of treasure using Mike(Mont)'s technique, then there will be a substantial learning period which may never end. You can expect to need to practice several variants of meditation, and to stand in some unusual positions that may appear you are trying to be a scarecrow in a field. You will see that according to Mike(Mont), the L rod antennas are not even necessary. They only make the "signal line" easier to pick up. http://www.geotech1.com/forums/showpost.php?p=102623&postcount=214

But wait...
Doesn't this make the need to spend $1800 for a 555 signal generator unnecessary?

Best wishes,
J_P

Bill512
05-30-2010, 11:47 PM
Mike ,how about pinpointing a massive test target?
Do you have any experience on this, using the Magnacast along with the scan gun?
Usually, using a classic MFD configuration, (signal generator + coil for transmitter + L-rods for line detection) we have a significant deviation.
The pinpoint accuracy for small targets(2-3 coins) is ok, but if we increase the test target mass, the L-rods indicates that the target is several meters away.
For example in our test site, a 48 Kilogram copper target has a deviation at about 25 meters.
Also,a extra deviation is added, according to the years which the target is buried.
So, i think there is no way to pinpoint a real treasure using the classic L-rods.
The human body as part of the receiver ,acts most like a differential amplifier.
It is indeed very sensitive, but i think that senses the degree of field changes, something like the first derivative and not the absolute values.
And furthermore, every human as a receiver, has his own level of sensitivity.
I have tried to chart the sensitivity of about 20 MFD users and the distribution of sensitivity looks like a Gaussian ,but the sample is small to be sure.

ALEX.356
06-03-2010, 08:56 PM
Dear friend,
I read your thoughts carefully enough.
I wish to bring to your attention the fact that Mike is a dowser, i.e. sensitive enough to feel the signal BUT in Magnacast 5000 we are talking about an electronic device NOT a dowsing rod.
Try to distance yourself from this trap.
Let's come back to the same subject.

Why is it difficult [according to GEO ] to have a narrow bandwidth RF emission ? Does it require materials not readily available in the market ?

Nobody has tried to make a serious transmitter [ IF Magnacast 5000 is not. . .] ? ? ?
We have no member in this Forum that is intrigued by this approach ?
to try and experiment with these " Signal Lines " ??? using a strong transmitter ???
The "forward Gauss" Bull...S... has blocked your mind and ridiculed this project [approach I shoud prefer to say ] ? ? ?

Thanks for listening to my thoughts,

ALex.

fenixdigger
06-04-2010, 12:00 AM
I have boosted the frequency output and it causes the "GHOST" signals to really stand out. From my experience the signal will appear on one of the
"RINGS" where crossed by a N/S or E/W "RAY". This may be caused by not having a "pure" frequency. A mystery to me but very evident on old targets.
Most of the time we have been 75 to 250 ft. off on the first location. A return trip right after a thunderstorm seems to put us right on target. LT

WM6
06-04-2010, 12:06 AM
One more note here. For some stupid reason some people think that if a device works they are somehow guaranteed to find treasure. Well, that's just not the case. And blaming the device solves nothing.



Mike, it is not blaming that device is working or not working, but how it is working.

Is it working regarding producer claims or it is only "working".

E.g. My pocket calculator is working, but not as MD, let alone LRL.

So, according you I can start to sell my working calculator as LRL, because to be working LRL there is not need to find something.?

J_Player
06-04-2010, 04:10 AM
I read your thoughts carefully enough.
I wish to bring to your attention the fact that Mike is a dowser, i.e. sensitive enough to feel the signal BUT in Magnacast 5000 we are talking about an electronic device NOT a dowsing rod.
Try to distance yourself from this trap.
Let's come back to the same subject.Yes,
You are correct!
Mike(Mont) is setting a trap because he wants us to think dowsing is necessary for using the Magnacast 5000. We see the Magnacast 5000 has no dowsing rods. Only a signal generator and a coil type receiver. I will become smart and ignore the crazy ascertations of Mike(Mont) telling us we must use dowsing methods with the Magnacast 5000.

Nobody has tried to make a serious transmitter [ IF Magnacast 5000 is not. . .] ? ? ?
We have no member in this Forum that is intrigued by this approach ?
The "forward Gauss" Bull...S... has blocked your mind and ridiculed this project [approach I shoud prefer to say ] ? ? ?None of the Vernell Electronics LRLs have any transmitting equipment in them. They are simple signal generators that are not connected to any transmitter or RF power stage. In order to build a transmitter, you need to establish a frequency (usually a low power signal generator), then send it to a power stage using one or more power transistors that are capable of developing enough power to broadcast an RF signal into the air through an antenna. The antenna would be most likely a coil type for a portable transmitter, and it would broadcast the VLF into the air in a manner that it can be absorbed into the ground. At the lower VLF frequencies (5KHz to 20KHZ), the RF can penetrate the ground deeper than the average treasure hunter would care to dig.

I have already shown where people are interested in this. The method of surveying the ground with VLF broadcast signals is a well established science used by geologists. Any detectorist can use a real VLF transmitter to send RF into the ground, then use a coil receiver to survey the ground and determine what is under the ground. No development work is needed. You can buy the transmitters and receivers today from the same suppliers that sell to geologists. For much less cost, you can make your own VLF transmitter and receiver with a hand held coil. In fact, you don't even need to build a transmitter if you are in an area where a government transmitter is operating. All you need is a receiver. Very similar to AM radio receiver, except much lower frequency, and a large hand-held coil.

The BS about "forward gauss" means this is only a word the manufacturer made up from his mind. It does not exist except in his mind. No engineer or scientist has ever heard of forward gauss, or been able to observe it or measure it with calibrated scientific instruments.

But the BS about "signal lines" is also a word people made up from their mind. Signal lines do not exist except in people's minds. No engineer or scientist has ever heard of "signal lines", or been able to observe them or measure them with calibrated scientific instruments.

The use of VLF to determine what is under the ground does not depend on any particular kind of gauss or signal lines. The variations in the receiver measurements depends on the properties of the ground. The fluctuations come because the ground is more or less conductive in different areas, and can absorb more of the RF than other areas that are less conductive. These variations tell a lot about what is under the ground, and allow geologists and other engineers to map what is beneath the ground on large areas of land.

The idea of detecting treasure with coil receivers and using real VLF transmitters has been discussed many times in Remote Sensing forum. In the second half of one thread, there are details given on how to make the equipment needed. Here is the link again for people in this forum who are interested in this idea: http://www.geotech1.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16216

Best wishes,
J_P

fenixdigger
06-04-2010, 05:39 AM
Mike; since you have had the unit for some time, and I am sure a lot of practice has went on, do you still like the unit, or is there a better way to go at present? Thanks, LT

WM6
06-04-2010, 09:08 AM
I have already shown where people are interested in this. The method of surveying the ground with VLF broadcast signals is a well established science used by geologists. Any detectorist can use a real VLF transmitter to send RF into the ground, then use a coil receiver to survey the ground and determine what is under the ground. No development work is needed. You can buy the transmitters and receivers today from the same suppliers that sell to geologists. For much less cost, you can make your own VLF transmitter and receiver with a hand held coil. In fact, you don't even need to build a transmitter if you are in an area where a government transmitter is operating. All you need is a receiver. Very similar to AM radio receiver, except much lower frequency, and a large hand-held coil.

J_P

Very well explained J_P. And probably the only real working method for (reasonable) remote searching.

All other methods are for todays MD reality only out of planetary theoretising, dreams or delusions. If they are sold it is about scam.

Mike(Mont)
06-04-2010, 03:35 PM
Mike; since you have had the unit for some time, and I am sure a lot of practice has went on, do you still like the unit, or is there a better way to go at present? Thanks, LT

I haven't tested everything on the market so I don't know. As I said, L-rods will pinpoint better once you are on the signal line and they are much faster, but you have to know how to use them and sometimes L-rods can be difficult to operate. Of course you have the option to use either the rods or the electronic receiver.

I like the option of being able to adjust the power level, but this is not always perfect. More power can cause distortion, and aluminum will cause a reflection with any MFD/HID type equipment. Magnetic images are worse with some equipment. I suppose that is part of learning. Usually you can see a phase (polarity) change as you walk through the various images or reflactions and remember the images are weaker from the southerly direction. That's why I like to come in from a non-cardinal point direction like SE, but I don't always work conventionally anyway. You should always check the area for images and possibly come back later or at night if you can't work around them.

Here again you should read "Supersensonics" to get an idea of what you are even dealing with. Hills is absolutely the most knowledgable person on the subject. Even if you can't understand his concepts, read through it anyway. Some day the light will come on. Of course if you can'ty locate in the first place (negative attitude/skeptic) you probably will be totally lost. Again, remember the signal line acts as an antenna.

Mike(Mont)
06-04-2010, 03:40 PM
I know some people refuse to read about locating, but that is not a sign of intelligence. I would recommend you read everything possible. I like the info on ground antenna from Borderlands. Read the part about lunar phases.

fenixdigger
06-04-2010, 07:57 PM
Thanks a lot Mike. I started out with the manual #100 from Don Jones in 1989 and then got the info from Larry Williams in 1990.
We started using a C-B radio to check static conditions. We found even a White's tm 808 is affected. I guess I'm just tired of digging the aluminum and brass and looking for a better way to up the % of good finds. Seems I find the small ones and the good ones get past me. Of course they are the old
ones and a lot harder to locate anyway. LT

Jim
06-04-2010, 10:42 PM
Thanks a lot Mike. I started out with the manual #100 from Don Jones in 1989 and then got the info from Larry Williams in 1990.
We started using a C-B radio to check static conditions. We found even a White's tm 808 is affected. I guess I'm just tired of digging the aluminum and brass and looking for a better way to up the % of good finds. Seems I find the small ones and the good ones get past me. Of course they are the old
ones and a lot harder to locate anyway. LT

I read on another internet forum that you own and operate two of the RangerTell examiners. Are you alluding that RangeTell devices do not locate/recover valuable treasures?

fenixdigger
06-04-2010, 11:35 PM
They will locate treasure. They will also locate brass and very old iron while on the gold freq. A lot of my sites have both. Now this is a good thing IF the
gold is in an iron box and there is no brass around. I'm sure that sooner or later I will be able to knock these out. Silver is no problem. I sent Art some of the first silver I found thanks to his help. It is hard to believe what those things can do. I scanned a friends land for crude oil and the depths that I got hits on were exactly where the deposits in this area are. I had no idea about the different layers but my friend sure did and 1 of them had been found previously. My biggest problem is the dam wind. Since Christmas, there has been 8 days the bird feeder hasn't been swinging. Tried an umbrella sideways.
that won't happen again. I'm using them but would like something to use when I can't use them. LT

fenixdigger
06-04-2010, 11:53 PM
I forgot to mention this. The codes for the Examiner on gold are for nugget type gold. I can find electroplated gold easy if it's 22ct or up. Coins being a mixture seems to cause the problems with all the lrl units. I hear of a lot more bars found than coins. a little tweaking will end this problem. Here again it's like the bandwidth problem. The last trip out I missed 30 lbs of gold by 75 ft. I got sidetracked by a signal from a much larger target. I took the size to 500,000 grams and still had the signal. I figured I was screwing up and left. Came back in a week and found a nice empty hole. Going back next week, the other signal is still there. LT

Jim
06-05-2010, 03:47 AM
They will locate treasure. They will also locate brass and very old iron while on the gold freq. A lot of my sites have both.

These units you have appear to be defective, as they are not discriminating the molecules properly. The frequency for gold is not shared by/with brass and very old iron.

Mike(Mont)
06-05-2010, 05:17 AM
The Examiner is not in the same class as MFD/HID units. I see this has turned into another thread highjacking. Please have a little courtesy and take it to another thread.

fenixdigger
06-05-2010, 06:00 AM
Good point Mike. As I am looking at the magnacast due to the pick up gun. Not a wind affected type reaction. I understand why you added the pot, to the circuit, finer control. One of my function generators has that. I wonder if that gun would work with one of my units? That would be fun to try with the 300 watt amp hooked up.
I have a rife generator that will put out up to 5 freqs. at the same time. Have had some interesting results with it. Never ran it with the amp. May try that this weekend. LT

J_Player
06-05-2010, 08:35 AM
Very well explained J_P. And probably the only real working method for (reasonable) remote searching.

All other methods are for todays MD reality only out of planetary theoretising, dreams or delusions. If they are sold it is about scam.If a person is interested in learning how to really find metals under the ground using VLF, it might be good to listen to people who can demonstrate success with this method.
Here is a page that shows a summary of VLF surveying for metal, published by a reputable earth sciences university. Take note of the technical details they mention.
These are the same principles that geologists and technicians use when locating metal under the ground: http://www.eos.ubc.ca/ubcgif/iag/foundations/method-summ_files/vlf-notes.htm


Best wishes,
J_P

Mike(Mont)
06-05-2010, 01:57 PM
Good point Mike. As I am looking at the magnacast due to the pick up gun. Not a wind affected type reaction. I understand why you added the pot, to the circuit, finer control. One of my function generators has that. I wonder if that gun would work with one of my units? That would be fun to try with the 300 watt amp hooked up.
I have a rife generator that will put out up to 5 freqs. at the same time. Have had some interesting results with it. Never ran it with the amp. May try that this weekend. LT

The scan gun is a directional receiver antenna. I hold it pointed down at the ground and walk across the signal line sort of like using an L-rod. If you want to hook up an antenna to your Rife machine, I don't know what would work with five frequencies. The transmitting coil appears to be wire wrapped around a rectangular frame. Remember a coil antenna is basically a capacitor.You could try some fine magnet wire and try to get a quarter wave length assuming you have a high enough frequency. I've read the Magnacast runs in the 400 MHz range but can't say for sure. I don't have a frequency counter that goes high enough to register. 300 watts seems like you might be violating some FCC laws. Like I said, most MFD type units run a very small amounts of power and I assume this is for some reason. I've heard the signal line will sort of burn into the ground and not dissapate for days if too much power is used. Don't know this for a fact, but I have experienced a residual effect on some days. The instructions on the Magnacst say to turn off the transmitter for fifteen minutes before moving to a new position. My experience has shown this to be true. The signal line will not be on target.

Qiaozhi
06-05-2010, 03:08 PM
Remember a coil antenna is basically a capacitor.
Is it really? :shrug:
Please explain...

Theseus
06-05-2010, 05:24 PM
Is it really? :shrug:
Please explain...

I expect you've heard of "the new math".

Perhaps this is Mike's push for "the new theory of antennas and wave propagation". :lol:

Jim
06-05-2010, 05:35 PM
The Examiner is not in the same class as MFD/HID units. I see this has turned into another thread highjacking. Please have a little courtesy and take it to another thread.

It is not? Which MFD/HID class is the Examiner in?

I don't see how talking about LRLs in a LRL thread is hijacking :???:

Mike(Mont)
06-05-2010, 08:14 PM
fenixdigger, if you get one let me know. I have a couple techniques that I really like.

fenixdigger
06-05-2010, 11:59 PM
Hi guys; Just got back from a quick hunt. Went to get permission to look and the guy said , I'll open the gate and you can drive back there. A line of trees was blocking the 20 mph wind there, so I went. The Examiner locked and I pinpointed a spot. Got the Minelab and it yelled and the number for gold came up on the meter. Dug down about 10 inches and saw gold. It was a piece of metal with gold leaf on it. Well I'm happy but not a lot. That's how it works. you find gold. Wasn't what I wanted, but it was gold.
Now I'm hoping that with a magnacast, I might be able to knock this out. Is that a possibility or would it lock on this also? Thanks,LT

Mike(Mont)
06-06-2010, 12:33 AM
If you are lookng for small items, you are going to get some gold plated stuff, too. I don't know any way around that. The AQC can be set AFTER you locate a signal line for 0 - 4 ounces or 0 - 4 pounds. These numbers are not exact. Things like magnetic soil, sulfides, etc. are going to reduce the efficiency. I have found that surface targets also have an effect of about twice what the dial is set at. Example: a one-half ounce gold target on the surface is going to be picked up even when the AQC dial is set at about one ounce -- at least in the soil I work in. This is also exaggerated when you are working at a long distance. It's going to be more accurate if you are working within fifty feet.

You bring up a good point. The MFD/HID units are not guaranteed to find treasure. Some people want to believe otherwise. They get their mind made up that a treasure is nearby and if they don't find it the device is to blame. Over optimism is as bad as skepticism. When a person gets unrealistic ideas it is like a manic depressant --the let-down is too much to handle. I don't know if you remember the story about the guy who had a two-box metal detector. He dug down about fifty feet before the neighbors called the police. Best to do your research first.

Qiaozhi
06-06-2010, 09:42 AM
Hi guys; Just got back from a quick hunt. Went to get permission to look and the guy said , I'll open the gate and you can drive back there. A line of trees was blocking the 20 mph wind there, so I went. The Examiner locked and I pinpointed a spot. Got the Minelab and it yelled and the number for gold came up on the meter. Dug down about 10 inches and saw gold. It was a piece of metal with gold leaf on it. Well I'm happy but not a lot. That's how it works. you find gold. Wasn't what I wanted, but it was gold.
Now I'm hoping that with a magnacast, I might be able to knock this out. Is that a possibility or would it lock on this also? Thanks,LT
Why don't you just continue using the Minelab? That appears to be working perfectly. :rolleyes:

fenixdigger
06-06-2010, 12:24 PM
Hi; Make no mistake, every time I go out, the Minelab goes. It will get a drink can @ 4 ft. The field I was in was around 10 acres. Took less than 15 min. to find the spot to put the Minelab. There are 2 words that are the best reason to use a locator like a magnacast or Examiner,,,STACK'S AUCTION. LT

Here's a picture of the field, the located spot, and the Minelab/w battery bag

hung
06-06-2010, 12:52 PM
Well I'm happy but not a lot. That's how it works. you find gold. Wasn't what I wanted, but it was gold.

Why not? Did you set the examiner for another frequency other than gold and ended up finding gold instead of the seeked metal?

I think you don't need the Minelab at all. Specially for small targets deeper than 6 inches. The examiner can perfectly pinpoint the location, however some people feel more confortable using one of these toy MDs for final pinpointing. This is only a psychological factor.

Art, for instance is an expert pinpointer with the Examiner and already has taught his MD to swim as he said.
I, for my part have taught my Minelab to skyjump since he already knew how to swim. Unfortunately that was not a good lesson and today he is half ruined... oh well..

fenixdigger
06-06-2010, 01:55 PM
Hi again; I was set on gold, but I was wide open on the other settings. I'm looking at the magnacast to bypass the wind BS that I have with hand held swingers. Sometimes I find OLD brass and very old iron( must have black electrolysis on it) when set on gold. I'm sure tweaking the settings will overcome this, but not the wind. Wind is also a problem out on the water.
Oh yes; Thank God for Art. He helped me a lot. I must not speak Australian, cause R/T was confusing as hell.
Some of my areas of interest, I have no idea of what is there, and I just want to see what I can find. In a historic area I was in, a man stopped to tell me that the local detector club used this park for staged hunts and training and that I would find very little. I thanked him, turned the disc. down and started. In 2 hrs. both pockets were FULL of coins and jewelry. Guess nobody had a tweaked Minelab. A LRL would have been useless there.
I want to break from the issue to say that this is one of the best forums I have been on. Hats off to the administrator !!!!! LT

Mike(Mont)
06-06-2010, 04:28 PM
In my years of locating, NOTHING compares to a signal line when it comes to discriminating. Even with an MFD/HID, if you just use the sweep technique instead of crossing/tracing the signal line, you are not getting the physical discrimination, just mental discrimination. That may or may not get you to the target. The signal line IS the discrimination. Yes, I own an Examiner and I don't use it any more, not even with an MFD. Not saying it can't work ,just that it is not that consistent. Even a signal line is not always going to be accurate. Sorry Hung, this thread is about the Magnacast. I repeat, please start a new thread.

J_Player
06-06-2010, 10:34 PM
In my years of locating, NOTHING compares to a signal line when it comes to discriminating. Even with an MFD/HID, if you just use the sweep technique instead of crossing/tracing the signal line, you are not getting the physical discrimination, just mental discrimination. That may or may not get you to the target. The signal line IS the discrimination. Yes, I own an Examiner and I don't use it any more, not even with an MFD. Not saying it can't work ,just that it is not that consistent. Even a signal line is not always going to be accurate. Sorry Hung, this thread is about the Magnacast. I repeat, please start a new thread.I agree. What does an Examiner have to do with forward gauss? There are plenty of threads in this forum for Examiner posts. Take your pick and post there.
But, since when has anyone thought twice about hijacking threads at Geotech?
Maybe this is why it takes a few hours to track down the fragments of information about any particular topic in Remote Sensing forum.

Getting back to the Magnacast 5000, a new thought is emerging that helps to explain LRL theory in general. From what I gather in Mike(Mont)'s last few posts, the signal generator in the Magnacast 5000 as well other Vernell Electronics signal generators do not discriminate metals or broadcast RF for any measurable distance. In theory, the small square wave signal is so weak it is barely detectable unless there is some metal that also has some very weak mechanical (molecular level) vibration with electrical artifacts. As the theory goes, the weak electronic square wave signal and weaker electronic artifacts from the metal are both undetectable alone when using ordinary electronic receivers. But when a piece of metal has minute electronic artifacts oscillating at the same frequency or a harmonic in near proximity of a signal generator (near = defined as a few inches to a few miles), a line in the air between the metal and signal generator becomes more detectable above the general electronic noise in the air. Thus, the term "signal line". So the theory is a small signal becomes more detectable above the noise levels when moving a detector along this line between the signal generator and metal. At least this is the theory I gather from what I read.

But this theory opens some questions:
1. According to Mike(Mont), the signal generator does not perform any metal discriminating. This is done biologically through human sensory and mental methods.
However, we see there are adjustments on the Vernell signal generators to select which kind of metal the signal generator is searching for.
Why does this adjustment exist if the electronic equipment does not physically discriminate metals?

2. We see a possible explanation to how the term "signal line" evolved. But is there any information that could explain what "forward gauss" is?
Can it be explained if we reject the Maxwell heaviside equations, or is it easily explained by conventional electronic theory?
Maybe it means the detection is done only on the forward side of the antenna, not the rear where the signal generator gets in the way... :nerd: :???:

3. From what we see in the Vernell Electronics locators that were studied and dissected by electronic engineers, they operate at VLF/ELF frequencies. Mike(Mont) thinks the Magnacast 5000 operates around 400 MHz, but can't be sure because his frequency counter does not go that high. A suggestion for Mike(Mont) is to connect a test probe between the antenna and ground, and check for frequencies between 10 and 10,000 Hz while switching through the 6 frequency adjustments on the Magnacast 5000. From what we know about the Vernell designs, this is where the frequency is likely to be found.

Best wishes,
J_P

fenixdigger
06-06-2010, 11:02 PM
I think the term forward gauss came about from the info that came out in 1990 from Larry Williams of Treasure hunter mag. He put out a report that said the mfd will develop a heart shaped field with the ground probe 30 ft behind the machine and the pos. probe in front. A lot of good info in those 19 pages. LT

Carl-NC
06-07-2010, 12:04 AM
Early on Larry was fascinated with LRLs, but as time went on and no one could ever locate his big pile of buried silver, he became more and more skeptical about them. By the time he gave up THC, he had pretty much dismissed LRLs as a bunch of nonsense. Of course, Steve Ryland, who took over THC from Larry, was a geophysicist and dismissed LRLs from the start.

Mike(Mont)
06-07-2010, 12:45 AM
Carl has a VR2000. He has electronic measuring equipment and a lot more knowledge about using it than I do. My instructions say to not touch the outputs as it is dangerous. It said do not connect or disconnect with power on. Wait ten minutes. I guess I am curious what info he measures.

goldfinder
06-07-2010, 12:52 AM
I agree. What does an Examiner have to do with forward gauss? There are plenty of threads in this forum for Examiner posts. Take your pick and post there.
But, since when has anyone thought twice about hijacking threads at Geotech?
Maybe this is why it takes a few hours to track down the fragments of information about any particular topic in Remote Sensing forum.

Getting back to the Magnacast 5000, a new thought is emerging that helps to explain LRL theory in general. From what I gather in Mike(Mont)'s last few posts, the signal generator in the Magnacast 5000 as well other Vernell Electronics signal generators do not discriminate metals or broadcast RF for any measurable distance. In theory, the small square wave signal is so weak it is barely detectable unless there is some metal that also has some very weak mechanical (molecular level) vibration with electrical artifacts. As the theory goes, the weak electronic square wave signal and weaker electronic artifacts from the metal are both undetectable alone when using ordinary electronic receivers. But when a piece of metal has minute electronic artifacts oscillating at the same frequency or a harmonic in near proximity of a signal generator (near = defined as a few inches to a few miles), a line in the air between the metal and signal generator becomes more detectable above the general electronic noise in the air. Thus, the term "signal line". So the theory is a small signal becomes more detectable above the noise levels when moving a detector along this line between the signal generator and metal. At least this is the theory I gather from what I read.

But this theory opens some questions:
1. According to Mike(Mont), the signal generator does not perform any metal discriminating. This is done biologically through human sensory and mental methods.
However, we see there are adjustments on the Vernell signal generators to select which kind of metal the signal generator is searching for.
Why does this adjustment exist if the electronic equipment does not physically discriminate metals?

2. We see a possible explanation to how the term "signal line" evolved. But is there any information that could explain what "forward gauss" is?
Can it be explained if we reject the Maxwell heaviside equations, or is it easily explained by conventional electronic theory?
Maybe it means the detection is done only on the forward side of the antenna, not the rear where the signal generator gets in the way... :nerd: :???:

3. From what we see in the Vernell Electronics locators that were studied and dissected by electronic engineers, they operate at VLF/ELF frequencies. Mike(Mont) thinks the Magnacast 5000 operates around 400 MHz, but can't be sure because his frequency counter does not go that high. A suggestion for Mike(Mont) is to connect a test probe between the antenna and ground, and check for frequencies between 10 and 10,000 Hz while switching through the 6 frequency adjustments on the Magnacast 5000. From what we know about the Vernell designs, this is where the frequency is likely to be found.

Best wishes,
J_P

When I was doing research with MFDs and LRL about 15 years ago I was skeptical of any signal lines. I had a friend of mine who could see energies on higher levels (a true clairvoyant as I had tested person extensively) observe on the higher planes any energies when I turned on the MFD. The friend could see a fuzzy white light energy line from the transmitter to a metal target. When I walked through the line with or without the dowsing rods the line would get broken and it took at least a minute for the line to re-establish. I could sense the line but not see it. The MFD would transmit to various metals depending on the frequency. Another discovery was that when the sun came up much more than 9 am the energies from the sun would dissolve the energy lines. Later in the afternoon the sun would get low enough on the horizon for the line phenomena to work. Lots of this type of discoveries coincided with old downing books like Abby Mermet.

Goldfinder

hung
06-07-2010, 02:02 AM
When I was doing research with MFDs and LRL about 15 years ago I was skeptical of any signal lines. I had a friend of mine who could see energies on higher levels (a true clairvoyant as I had tested person extensively) observe on the higher planes any energies when I turned on the MFD. The friend could see a fuzzy white light energy line from the transmitter to a metal target. When I walked through the line with or without the dowsing rods the line would get broken and it took at least a minute for the line to re-establish. I could sense the line but not see it. The MFD would transmit to various metals depending on the frequency. Another discovery was that when the sun came up much more than 9 am the energies from the sun would dissolve the energy lines. Later in the afternoon the sun would get low enough on the horizon for the line phenomena to work. Lots of this type of discoveries coincided with old downing books like Abby Mermet.

Goldfinder

...Be careful with what you say here, otherwise you may cause a serious short circuit in Carl&gang's neurons.

Mike(Mont)
06-07-2010, 03:20 AM
Here's a technique I use. As I said, I point the scan gun at the ground and walk in an arc in front of the transmitter antenna about 13.5 feet away (radius). Now when I get directly in front of the antenna the tone and clicking will be the loudest, so I look for any variance. In other words, if the tone starts to decrease instead of the usual increase I check it out. So when I am pointing the scan gun at the ground the handle is in the horizontal position. I twist it back and forth like turning a key in a lock. I watch the meter and normally when there is a tone the meter will stay up high, or no tone the meter stays low, but right near the signal line the meter will deflect almost the full scale with each twist of the scan gun back and forth. I don't know how well this will work with the VR2000 because the receiver antenna is quite a bit larger and not too easy to twist quickly. I don't twist it all that much, probably less than forty-five degrees each direction (towards the transmitter and towards the target area).

Qiaozhi
06-07-2010, 10:06 AM
Here's a technique I use. As I said, I point the scan gun at the ground and walk in an arc in front of the transmitter antenna about 13.5 feet away (radius). Now when I get directly in front of the antenna the tone and clicking will be the loudest, so I look for any variance. In other words, if the tone starts to decrease instead of the usual increase I check it out. So when I am pointing the scan gun at the ground the handle is in the horizontal position. I twist it back and forth like turning a key in a lock. I watch the meter and normally when there is a tone the meter will stay up high, or no tone the meter stays low, but right near the signal line the meter will deflect almost the full scale with each twist of the scan gun back and forth. I don't know how well this will work with the VR2000 because the receiver antenna is quite a bit larger and not too easy to twist quickly. I don't twist it all that much, probably less than forty-five degrees each direction (towards the transmitter and towards the target area).
Signal lines are just a trick of the mind.
Try re-reading your posts quoted above. It's just a load of pseudo-babble.

Qiaozhi
06-07-2010, 10:07 AM
...Be careful with what you say here, otherwise you may cause a serious short circuit in Carl&gang's neurons.
Is this from personal experience? :razz:

hung
06-07-2010, 11:47 AM
Hey Mike, nice try in your temptative to start a discussion over elevated matters, but as you see... even after years, some 'patients' still get disturbed.
Better try somewhere else... This place is doomed in ignorance.

Qiaozhi
06-07-2010, 02:53 PM
Hey Mike, nice try in your temptative to start a discussion over elevated matters, but as you see... even after years, some 'patients' still get disturbed.
Better try somewhere else... This place is doomed in ignorance.
Translation:
Better to spread pseudo-scientific nonsense, concerning signal lines and dowsing paraphernalia, on other forums than to waste time here where BS is not tolerated.

Mike(Mont)
06-07-2010, 03:31 PM
--deleted--

WM6
06-07-2010, 03:39 PM
Hey Mike, nice try in your temptative to start a discussion over elevated matters, but as you see... even after years, some 'patients' still get disturbed.
Better try somewhere else... This place is doomed in ignorance.

Hi hung

you are more and more Gauss forwarded. This can lead to total circular polarisation of brain wave.

fenixdigger
06-07-2010, 04:29 PM
Here's a quick way to check if signal lines exist. Set 2 gold coins or silver coins down 10 ft or more apart. take the OLE dowsing rods, (coat hangers will work) and walk between them. Let me know what happens. LT

Mike(Mont)
06-07-2010, 04:40 PM
finixdigger, you are making a mistake here. It's going to depend on which target you are dowsing for. If you are thinking silver you won't get any response. And this depends on whether you can dowse or not. A true MFD-type signal line does not rely on mental discrimination. That's been a major roadblock for those who can't understand this.

Theseus
06-07-2010, 04:57 PM
finixdigger, you are making a mistake here. It's going to depend on which target you are dowsing for. If you are thinking silver you won't get any response. And this depends on whether you can dowse or not. A true MFD-type signal line does not rely on mental discrimination. That's been a major roadblock for those who can't understand this.

On the contrary, there is no such thing as a true signal line. They simply do not exist as tangible entities. If they did, there would be other ways (conventional instrumentation) to sense them, besides with a dowsing wand.

"Signal lines" is merely a term concocted by those dowsers who want to believe there is something physical going on between the sought after target and some other object or device. In reality it is a dowser's way to explain what happens when their ideomotor response fires, and the dowsing contraption (LRL/MFD included) is moved by their own hand or wrist movements. It "seems" to them they have stepped on or have crossed their imaginary "signal line".

In essence, they would rather believe there are tangible "signal lines" than believe they were responsible for the ultimate movement of their dowsing contraption. I guess it makes them feel better.... or provides a stroke for their ego.

:)

Qiaozhi
06-07-2010, 06:18 PM
Here's a quick way to check if signal lines exist. Set 2 gold coins or silver coins down 10 ft or more apart. take the OLE dowsing rods, (coat hangers will work) and walk between them. Let me know what happens. LT
This is not proof for the existence of signal lines. It only demonstrates the ideomotor effect at work. In other words, it's a trick of the mind.

Mike(Mont)
06-07-2010, 06:23 PM
fenixdigger, I am not arguing the point that a person can detect a line of force between the two gold pieces. In dowsing this is referred to the union ray and is sympathetic resonance.

fenixdigger
06-07-2010, 08:45 PM
Ok, I sort of left out something I just assumed would take place.
Have someone else put the coins down. If you can take rods and locate water or electric lines, you can do this. Some people can't. I have time and time again put rods in people's hands and watched the surprised look on their faces when the reaction occurs.
The point I was headed to was that when you pump signal into the ground, a material that "resonates", will "link or chain" to the same material. They do this on their own, but the mfd intensifies this effect.
*****Now it's easy to do this and won't cost a cent, so please before you jump on this, try it. 5 min. time. Prove it to yourself- yes or no
We are talking about things that were studied by Tesla, Rife, Keeley,and others long ago. Since these guys were a lot smarter than me, I'm apt to believe SOME of what they say.
When you take sub atomic behavior and add harmonic freqs. to it, things can get strange.
TRY IT. Is it more important to be a skeptic or to be correct? LT

fenixdigger
06-07-2010, 09:13 PM
Let me also respond with this. Hall Effect Generator. Want to detect signal lines with electronics? Works best if an amp of 100 watts is used with the mfd.

Here's something I'd like to hear explained. I will go to a site and pinpoint a location. (with a magic toy)

One of my guys will come and do the same. He will end up within 2 or 3 ft of where I did. With a different toy.

Next guy, same thing. how is this possible if there is not "something" guiding us to the spot?

This can happen days apart and no markers are left to point the way, only a golf tee in the spot. Now most time you can't see this from 3 ft away.

Problem here is that while some people think we are tricking ourselves into believing this exists, we are thinking you are tricking yourselves into thinking it doesn't. Kind of a catch 22 thing. That's why I asked to try it before the flogging starts. IF you ever SEE this 1 time you will rethink a lot of this.
The real scam that goes on, is that someone sells a device to make a profit and never intends to see that it works or that they help the buyer be able to use it. Not everyone is like that. Finding them is HARD. LT

J_Player
06-07-2010, 09:45 PM
On the contrary, there is no such thing as a true signal line. They simply do not exist as tangible entities. If they did, there would be other ways (conventional instrumentation) to sense them, besides with a dowsing wand.Hmmm...
This is what the folks at Vernell Electronics provided. Apparently they did not agree that signal lines can only be imagined in the mind of dowsers. They provided "other ways" to sense them. The Magnacast 5000 has a receiver with a signal strength meter and a speaker that makes clicking sounds when the "scan gun" antenna is pointed at the signal line. According to the instruction manual, the clicking becomes faster when pointed at the signal line, then slows down when pointing away from the signal line. If this "scan gun" behaves as Vernell Electronics describes it, then it is a non-dowsing electronic sensor of "signal lines". So we now have another way to find the signal line without using dowsing.

There is a lot more information in the instruction manual for the Magnacast 5000. They describe controls on the transmitter that would suggest there is an amplifier inside the box, or at least an attenuator that could vary the power level. But more important, they describe some tests that give clues to what frequency it operates at. For example, their test requires you hold an AM radio next to the transmitter coil antenna and turn the tuning dial to the lowest setting on the dial, below the lowest frequency broadcast station. Then listen for audible tones changing on the AM radio as you turn the knob for different metals at the transmitter.

It seems likely the Magnacast 5000 sends a carrier around 500 KHz with an AM audio tone that is selected by turning the knob to point at one of the different metals printed on the faceplate. Because the instructions say to hold the AM radio next to the transmitter coil, maybe this close proximity is needed to pick up the modulation from a weak signal. The receiver at the scan gun is tested by watching the signal strength meter, and listening for clicking sounds. But they also talk about conditions when you may hear AM radio broadcasts from the "signal line finder" receiver.

After reading this test, it seems likely this model is not the same as the other Vernell Electonics LRLs. It has a way to adjust the power level, and it uses a receiver that can also receive AM broadcasts under certain conditions. The evidence suggests a carrier around 500 KHz modulated with AM audio tones to select different metals. If I were to speculate, I would think they used the VR-800 signal generator to modulate the amplitude of a power transistor that drives the coil transmitter.

Unlike VLF coils which geologists use to locate metal and other objects under the ground, the Magnacast 5000 does not locate any metal. It is claimed to locate "signal lines" in the air that connect from the buried metal to the coil at the transmitter.
If the claims made by Vernell Electronics are to be believed, the Magnacast 5000 may be suitable equipment to conduct a test to see if a signal line exists or not by listening to the clicking sounds produced by receiver.

Read the Magnacast 5000 manual here: https://vernellelectronics.safenetserver.com/5000%20MANUAL%20-%20PDF/Manual-VR5000-from-PDF.pdf

Bill512
06-07-2010, 10:34 PM
Ok, I sort of left out something I just assumed would take place.
Have someone else put the coins down. If you can take rods and locate water or electric lines, you can do this. Some people can't. I have time and time again put rods in people's hands and watched the surprised look on their faces when the reaction occurs.
The point I was headed to was that when you pump signal into the ground, a material that "resonates", will "link or chain" to the same material. They do this on their own, but the mfd intensifies this effect.
*****Now it's easy to do this and won't cost a cent, so please before you jump on this, try it. 5 min. time. Prove it to yourself- yes or no
We are talking about things that were studied by Tesla, Rife, Keeley,and others long ago. Since these guys were a lot smarter than me, I'm apt to believe SOME of what they say.
When you take sub atomic behavior and add harmonic freqs. to it, things can get strange.
TRY IT. Is it more important to be a skeptic or to be correct? LT

You are correct . Between two similar objects there is a signal line, but is extremely weak and we need a very sensitive human receiver in order to detect this line.
Now, when we broadcast a "molecular" frequency we form some kind of electronic analogue,a electronic witness.
In this case, the signal line is orders of magnitude stronger (depended from the transmitting power), but usually not so pure.

Qiaozhi
06-07-2010, 10:34 PM
Problem here is that while some people think we are tricking ourselves into believing this exists, we are thinking you are tricking yourselves into thinking it doesn't. Kind of a catch 22 thing.
Not really. If you take the time to do a double-blind test you will see that the "signal line" effect magically goes away. Unfortunately very few dowsers are willing to test their beliefs, and those that do rapidly go into excuse mode.

fenixdigger
06-07-2010, 10:39 PM
Thanks, Good info. This may be what I need to deal with the wind. LT

fenixdigger
06-07-2010, 10:56 PM
All I know for sure is what happens when we hunt. For 3 guys to hit the same spot days apart. that would seem like a "triple" blind test.

I bet "we" didn't take the little rods out in the yard and try what I mentioned,
did "we"? Nothing to be scared of. I've never heard of the "boogie dowser" getting anyone.

I have to go with what I see with my own eyes. I understand the reluctance to blindly accept wild sounding claims. There does come a point where you have to say this is reality when you see it enough.

I could tell you some real good stories, but I was there and it's still hard for ME to believe and if anyone did believe me, I would think them a fool.

I will try the Magnacast and keep you updated. Like I say the best proof---STACK"S AUCTION LT

J_Player
06-08-2010, 12:09 AM
All I know for sure is what happens when we hunt. For 3 guys to hit the same spot days apart. that would seem like a "triple" blind test.

...I will try the Magnacast and keep you updated. Like I say the best proof---STACK"S AUCTION LTA double blind test of locating unknown buried metal during a treasure hunt means that nobody at the testing site has any idea where the buried metal is while the test is in progress. Not the person searching for the metal. Not the person conducting the test, not any observers. And there are no clues of where the metal is buried or not buried, such as shovel marks, disturbed dirt, or golf tees. If anyone has a clue where the treasure is located or not located, then he cannot be at the test site or in view of anyone at the test site until after the test is completed. A person with knowledge of the location of the buried metal could visit the test site in between test trials as long as nobody else participating in the test was there, but then he would need to leave before people returned to perform the next test. He could finally return and tell everyone what clues he knew about the location of the buried metal after all the tests are completed, and the results are checked.

In your case, there could not have been a double blind test because at least you observed a second and third person locating the same location as someone before located. What you saw was not a double blind test, but an incidence where three different people chose the same location for buried metal on different days when using dowsing rods. This can be a remarkable experience when you see it happen. But it does not satisfy most Geotech skeptics, who want to see actual double blind tests performed in front of a few skeptical witnesses.

I would be interested to hear what happens when you use the Magnacast 5000 to locate "signal lines". I am particularly interested in whether the clicking sound really does increase its rate when pointed at the "signal line" between the buried metal and the transmitter coil. If you have a frequency counter, it would also be good to learn exactly what frequency the carrier is set to, and what audio frequencies are measured for each of the metal selections.

Best wishes,
J_P

fenixdigger
06-08-2010, 01:50 AM
I'll let you know how it does.

When we hunt, we have a location of about 1/2 acre to check. When we are all there, some one checks E/W lines, another checks N/S lines. The other person sets up a mfd and films what is going on.

We circle the area if we get a line. To end up with 4 points that are N/S and E/W of each other, each person finds 2 points on his own and checks the other 2 points. MOST of this is in the blind until the compass comes out.

Some times we are on roads doing this 1/2 mile apart. We mainly use Examiners. thanks, LT

Mike(Mont)
06-08-2010, 02:37 PM
fenixdigger, like I said, I make no guarantees. There are going to be times you won't be able to get it to work as you would like, same as any MFD-type unit. But I can attest to a few times my L-rods could not find the target that I located it with the Magnacast. You should check with Vernell Electronics about their return policy. I think it is thirty days with restocking fee, but don't quote me on that. It's going to take time and lots of practice so plan on this.

Qiaozhi
06-08-2010, 03:02 PM
I'll let you know how it does.

When we hunt, we have a location of about 1/2 acre to check. When we are all there, some one checks E/W lines, another checks N/S lines. The other person sets up a mfd and films what is going on.

We circle the area if we get a line. To end up with 4 points that are N/S and E/W of each other, each person finds 2 points on his own and checks the other 2 points. MOST of this is in the blind until the compass comes out.

Some times we are on roads doing this 1/2 mile apart. We mainly use Examiners. thanks, LT

fenixdigger, like I said, I make no guarantees. There are going to be times you won't be able to get it to work as you would like, same as any MFD-type unit. But I can attest to a few times my L-rods could not find the target that I located it with the Magnacast. You should check with Vernell Electronics about their return policy. I think it is thirty days with restocking fee, but don't quote me on that. It's going to take time and lots of practice so plan on this.
Obviously you have no intention of ever performing a double-blind test, and therefore will remain ignorant as to the real cause of the effect you are experiencing.

J_Player
06-08-2010, 04:17 PM
Obviously you have no intention of ever performing a double-blind test, and therefore will remain ignorant as to the real cause of the effect you are experiencing.Double blind test from Mike(Mont)? Of course not!
Mike(Mont) has already explained his committment to the power of mind over electronic instruments for detection of signal lines:
"Someone who is skilled with the rods is going to be able to detect a signal line much sooner than with an electronic receiver"
...Of course with L-rods, the receiver is the human body, brain, nervous system, and consciousness necessary to "make sense" of it all. Even when using an electronic receiver, the person needs a brain and a few mental skills to interpret what is happening. Anyone who tries to compare this to a metal detector is either deceptive or --deleted--. You cannot compare the two.

...I can find a signal line without rods. I hold my arms out from my sides and relax my wrists so my hands point down somewhat. I call it the scarecrow stance. Then I walk around the transmitter (arms parallel to signal line) until I feel the psychic electricity. I can't pinpoint the target with this method, just the signal line. I use the Revelation Locator Rod. There is no other rod that has as low stiction. It has an extremely low start-up torque threshold that borders on the infinite. Of course it's not, but it's imperceptible.

...In my years of locating, NOTHING compares to a signal line when it comes to discriminating. Even with an MFD/HID, if you just use the sweep technique instead of crossing/tracing the signal line, you are not getting the physical discrimination, just mental discrimination.

We can easily conclude Mike(Mont) is not interested in using physical instruments to measure what he is sensing. From what he has told us, it should be obvious he considers the power and sheer knowledge that comes from the mind to be superior to anything an electronic instrument could detect or measure. The only physical appliance that could help is a good rod to act as an antenna to gather the energy of the "signal line" for a biological/mental experience. From reading Mike(Mont)'s previous posts detailing how he detects signal lines, it becomes apparent his method takes him traveling through another dimension, a dimension not only of sight and sound but of mind; a journey into a wondrous land whose boundaries are that of imagination.

What electronic instrument can measure what he sees there?
What human observers standing nearby could see what he sees there?
Do you really think he would allow anyone to try to document his performance?

Best wishes,
J_P

Jim
11-12-2010, 10:25 AM
I'll let you know how it does.

When we hunt, we have a location of about 1/2 acre to check. When we are all there, some one checks E/W lines, another checks N/S lines. The other person sets up a mfd and films what is going on.

We circle the area if we get a line. To end up with 4 points that are N/S and E/W of each other, each person finds 2 points on his own and checks the other 2 points. MOST of this is in the blind until the compass comes out.

Some times we are on roads doing this 1/2 mile apart. We mainly use Examiners. thanks, LT

So....how did it go for you? How about sharing some of those films?

fenixdigger
11-14-2010, 03:42 PM
As I told you on other sites, I don't make some info public. Whether you believe it exists or not doesn't matter. It's not meant for you to start with nor are the P/M messages and e-mails a lot of us swap.

If I were to consider a bunch of people to be swimming in a delusional sea of false ideas, I would just leave it alone and not get involved. I would do this for 2 reasons. First, not my business and second ,just in case history proved it out at a later date, I would not want to be the ultimate *******. Remember our "flat world discussion"????

Jim
11-14-2010, 03:49 PM
As I told you on other sites, I don't make some info public. Whether you believe it exists or not doesn't matter. It's not meant for you to start with nor are the P/M messages and e-mails a lot of us swap.

If I were to consider a bunch of people to be swimming in a delusional sea of false ideas, I would just leave it alone and not get involved. I would do this for 2 reasons. First, not my business and second ,just in case history proved it out at a later date, I would not want to be the ultimate *******. Remember our "flat world discussion"????

Well good golly....you sure do make your blathering nonsense public.

Your belief in the Flat World Myth speaks volumes, as well. :lol:

Qiaozhi
11-14-2010, 05:38 PM
As I told you on other sites, I don't make some info public. Whether you believe it exists or not doesn't matter. It's not meant for you to start with nor are the P/M messages and e-mails a lot of us swap.

If I were to consider a bunch of people to be swimming in a delusional sea of false ideas, I would just leave it alone and not get involved. I would do this for 2 reasons. First, not my business and second ,just in case history proved it out at a later date, I would not want to be the ultimate *******. Remember our "flat world discussion"????
I'm sure most treasure hunters are quite happy for you to remain in your delusional state, as it leaves more treasures untouched for them to find using real scientific instruments that actually work. It is just a shame that you cannot see past your own nose. :frown: No insult intended ... just a skeptical observation.

Jim
11-14-2010, 06:23 PM
....using real scientific instruments that actually work.


From the H3 Tec website:

* H3 Treasure Detectors are scientific instruments, not toys; therefore, training is mandatory. The cost of training does not include airline or other transportation to or from training locations, nor does it include lodging, snacks, or meals other than those that are specifically identified in the official training agenda.


Intermission over. Thanks :lol:

Qiaozhi
11-14-2010, 06:34 PM
From the H3 Tec website:

* H3 Treasure Detectors are scientific instruments, not toys; therefore, training is mandatory. The cost of training does not include airline or other transportation to or from training locations, nor does it include lodging, snacks, or meals other than those that are specifically identified in the official training agenda.


Intermission over. Thanks :lol:
:lol:
Yes, but stating that the device is a scientific instrument does not make it true. ;)
This is yet another way of ripping off paying customers. :frown:

fenixdigger
11-14-2010, 07:40 PM
Still doesn't matter. Never will. I see what I see, you believe what you believe, who cares???

fenixdigger
11-14-2010, 07:53 PM
I'm sure most treasure hunters are quite happy for you to remain in your delusional state, as it leaves more treasures untouched for them to find using real scientific instruments that actually work. It is just a shame that you cannot see past your own nose. :frown: No insult intended ... just a skeptical observation.

Well thank you for the observation.

I do own more conventional units than LRLs and use them more. they are spot on, especially the modded Minelab.

The majority in numbers was found with a sovereign, an Excalibur, a viper, a fisher, or a Garrett.

With the exception of a few rings, the more valuable were initially located long range, and dug using one of the coil units. Whether I was guessing or not, I would have never went to those spots without the LRL. If I was guessing, ok, I still made a recovery.

How do you look at a huge area and decide where to start? (with no info available)

Jim
11-14-2010, 08:00 PM
Still doesn't matter. Never will. I see what I see, you believe what you believe, who cares???

That answer is obvious. You care. You care enough to fabricate unbelievable stories, and when challenged only offer a sharp tongue and a barrage of insults.

Validation? Not a requirement of a sociopath*.

*Pathological Lying - Has no problem lying coolly and easily and it is almost impossible for them to be truthful on a consistent basis. Can create, and get caught up in, a complex belief about their own powers and abilities. Extremely convincing and even able to pass lie detector tests.

fenixdigger
11-14-2010, 08:17 PM
Good point. How does that change what I see and do? Believe what you want, I do what I want and have a good time doing it.

If I told all of what happens, you would really be screaming Liar,Liar. Not fabricated stories, actual happenings.

I guess if you were not able to conceive of some of these things, they would seem impossible.

The episodes with just the animals alone would drive you over the edge, much less the stories of the terrain and the vegetation.

I don't have a boring life, I don't have a need to exaggerate, believe it or not, ok with me.

I suppose a story about a black water dive to find megaladon teeth would set you off also

Jim
11-14-2010, 08:38 PM
Good point. How does that change what I see and do? Believe what you want, I do what I want and have a good time doing it.

If I told all of what happens, you would really be screaming Liar,Liar. Not fabricated stories, actual happenings.

I guess if you were not able to conceive of some of these things, they would seem impossible.

The episodes with just the animals alone would drive you over the edge, much less the stories of the terrain and the vegetation.

I don't have a boring life, I don't have a need to exaggerate, believe it or not, ok with me.

I suppose a story about a black water dive to find megaladon teeth would set you off also

Oops...you seem to be drooling more sociopath blither*.

*Glibness and Superficial Charm

Qiaozhi
11-14-2010, 09:12 PM
Still doesn't matter. Never will. I see what I see, you believe what you believe, who cares???
If you believe it's working for you, then that's fine. But some might say that this is a typical "head in sand" attitude. Just don't try to speak while you're down there. :D

Qiaozhi
11-14-2010, 09:18 PM
Whether I was guessing or not, I would have never went to those spots without the LRL. If I was guessing, ok, I still made a recovery.
It looks like you are at least open to the possibility that it's total guesswork. :cool:

How do you look at a huge area and decide where to start? (with no info available)
An educated guess. The only thing a dowsing or LRL gadget will do is to help you subconsciously make the decision ..... and the ideomotor effect does the rest. After that a real detector is used to make the recovery, but the useless gadget gets the credit. ;)

fenixdigger
11-14-2010, 11:17 PM
I sure don't have all the answers. If I did it would be sweet. Maybe I do guess that good.
Hard for me to buy it, but possible. Maybe I have an unnatural dowsing ability. I don't know.
I do however know the results and if I have fooled myself into success, I'll keep it.

The only problem I have with these units is on pinpointing large targets.

I recently described a trip to try a bionic 01, which I was promptly called a liar on. I just paid a dam ticket I got coming back, wish that was imaginary.

I used several units and even the old school trick with the rods and gold as bait. I know none of this is "supposed" to work. I did get 4 indications with all even though I moved so I wouldn't be oriented to the last one. I did this while Frank was getting the o1 set and talking to his daughter.

The bionic 01 got 3 of the same signals. Frank couldn't believe it. Said he wouldn't sell me one, I was doing as good as he was and I didn't need it. A compass at all the spots verified they were all the same. I thought that was straight up of him.
Did we dig- no wasn't there for that. I wanted to see if it even worked not hassle with getting permission to look and dig that far from home.

For one instant take this as the absolute truth. If this happened to you what would you think? What if this happened every time you went out? That's where I'm at, and when I tell some of it, holy crap. I'm not going to lie because I scared of the bullying from someone that doesn't have a clue. Some people want to know about this. It may help to produce that "dream unit". That's what we all want. So do I care what someone that's likely had caisson disease thinks?

I'm not going to say what that 4th signal was as it would invoke the Liar,Liar thing again.

Jim
11-14-2010, 11:56 PM
I sure don't have all the answers. If I did it would be sweet.

I recently described a trip to try a bionic 01, which I was promptly called a liar on. I just paid a dam ticket I got coming back, wish that was imaginary.

I used several units and even the old school trick with the rods and gold as bait. I know none of this is "supposed" to work. I did get 4 indications with all even though I moved so I wouldn't be oriented to the last one. I did this while Frank was getting the o1 set and talking to his daughter.

The bionic 01 got 3 of the same signals. Frank couldn't believe it. Said he wouldn't sell me one, I was doing as good as he was and I didn't need it. A compass at all the spots verified they were all the same. I thought that was straight up of him.
Did we dig- no wasn't there for that. I wanted to see if it even worked not hassle with getting permission to look and dig that far from home.



For those inclined...Frank in this "story" is Frank Casser, OKM-USA. Frank refused to sell this clown a Bionic 01....hehehe. What a joke.

More dowsing blither....found it, but didn't dig it up

fenixdigger
11-15-2010, 12:33 AM
Ah, you are truly a piece of work.

Mike(Mont)
11-24-2010, 12:36 AM
I saw someone at spokane.craiglist.org was selling a Magnacast.

Mike(Mont)
11-24-2010, 01:37 AM
I haven't kept up with all the posts on this thread. I saw one where jp says I am dowsing here. Look, I CAN feel the signal line when I hold my arms out and walk through it. That doesn't mean I use this technique. Almost never, just said I can do it. I use L-rods for the final pinpoint--it's just more accurate when working city parks and it's not mental dowsing no matter what the skeptics want you to believe.

Another thing I should mention. When there is a solid target and no interference, it is very much like waving a metal detector through the air in front of a target. Almost the same--beep beep beep. But tiny targets like gold rings are just not as easy to pick up. The scan gun is barely going to give you anything if you sweep it at that sized target, that's why I point it down to the ground and walk across the signal line because it is most sensitive. This is where I've done most of my practice.

J_Player
11-24-2010, 05:11 PM
I haven't kept up with all the posts on this thread. I saw one where jp says I am dowsing here. Look, I CAN feel the signal line when I hold my arms out and walk through it. That doesn't mean I use this technique. Almost never, just said I can do it. I use L-rods for the final pinpoint--it's just more accurate when working city parks and it's not mental dowsing no matter what the skeptics want you to believe.

Another thing I should mention. When there is a solid target and no interference, it is very much like waving a metal detector through the air in front of a target. Almost the same--beep beep beep. But tiny targets like gold rings are just not as easy to pick up. The scan gun is barely going to give you anything if you sweep it at that sized target, that's why I point it down to the ground and walk across the signal line because it is most sensitive. This is where I've done most of my practice.Hi Mike,
I may have once thought you were dowsing, but my conclusion which I put in my most recent post is maybe it is not dowsing.
Actually I am not certain what method you use to locate things, or at least I don't know of any word to describe your methods.
Here is my idea of how you detect signal lines taken from my most recent post:

"From reading Mike(Mont)'s previous posts detailing how he detects signal lines, it becomes apparent his method takes him traveling through another dimension, a dimension not only of sight and sound but of mind; a journey into a wondrous land whose boundaries are that of imagination".

Best wishes,
J_P

Mike(Mont)
11-24-2010, 07:23 PM
Just goes to show you don't have a clue. It's not easy to describe but I honestly try to post what I consider to be as close to the truth as I can describe. Yes, I know some of it might seem hard to comprehend. You just make up your mind about signal lines and no one can help you to see the light. That's the negative attitude I have preached about for years. You live in CA? There's got to be a hundred dowsing groups there. Maybe you can find some cute gal to teach you?

J_Player
11-28-2010, 05:25 PM
Just goes to show you don't have a clue. It's not easy to describe but I honestly try to post what I consider to be as close to the truth as I can describe. Yes, I know some of it might seem hard to comprehend. You just make up your mind about signal lines and no one can help you to see the light. That's the negative attitude I have preached about for years. You live in CA? There's got to be a hundred dowsing groups there. Maybe you can find some cute gal to teach you?Of course I have a clue about signal lines. I have read hundreds of clues in this forum describing how signal lines work. The problem is the properties of signal lines change depending on who is reporting the signal line properties, and depending on what time of day it is, and what the solar conditions are, and a few other variables.

So there is no concise definition of what a signal line is exactly. But we do have hundreds of clues lurking about the forum, some of which are contradictory.
However, you are mistaken if you think I have made up my mind or I have a negative attitude about signal lines.
Actually I like signal lines. Signal lines seem cool and very useful if they can do what people say they do.
Signal lines are especially good if they represent the truth and the light (I like truth and light too).

I am skeptical, not prejudiced. As a skeptic, I have doubts, and I have a feeling that people who say signal lines don't exist are probably correct. But as a skeptic, I have not made up my mind about signal lines. I am waiting for someone who fully understands how to use signal lines to locate hidden objects to show me how it works. After many years of waiting, I have never seen any person show me these signal lines working. But still I think it could be possible that some time someone could show me the signal lines working.

You are correct about a lot of dowsers in California. Actually I did contact a number of local dowsers and their leaders. But nobody in these local groups was willing to demonstrate signal lines to locate a hidden object whether using rods, an LRL, or using no locating equipment. They seemed to be more interested in inducing me into their groups to become more "tuned into the universe" for a modest fee. Heck, all I wanted was to see how a signal line works to find something!

Best wishes,
J_P

WM6
11-28-2010, 07:12 PM
To successfully use Forward Gauss technology, one have to be about 400 years Backward.

Theseus
11-28-2010, 08:00 PM
After many years of waiting, I have never seen any person show me these signal lines working. But still I think it could be possible that some time someone could show me the signal lines working.
Best wishes,
J_P

Yes... we must always leave the door open just a crack. Someone could come along and provide credible evidence for Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny; which is about as likely as someone demonstrating the existence of signal lines. But, you never know.... :lol:

J_Player
11-29-2010, 12:00 AM
To successfully use Forward Gauss technology, one have to be about 400 years Backward.Hi WM6,

I am looking 400 years backwards... I see in Galileo discovering the four moons of Jupiter... skeptics are saying he is wrong and a heretic.... but I only know what I see.

I see the troops of Sweden invading Moscow.
I see Francois Ravaillac assassinates Henry IV of France.
I see Sir George Somers, and other survivors from the Sea Venture (wrecked at Bermuda) arrive at Jamestown; they find that 60 have survived the "starving time"
I see Francois Ravaillac is executed by being pulled apart by horses in the Place de Grève.
I see temporary Governor Gates decides to abandon Jamestown. -- does this mean Bill Gates is a bad guy?
I see Arbella Stuart, pretender to the English throne, secretly marries William Seymour; both are later imprisoned for marrying without the king's permission.

Wow.. .this is way too much information that is irrelevant to signal lines... should I come back to the present?

Best wishes,
J_P

WM6
11-29-2010, 09:01 AM
I am looking 400 years backwards... I see in Galileo discovering the four moons of Jupiter...
.. should I come back to the present?


J_P

Hi J_P

Please look at again. Can you see any dowser there?

If not we can negotiate about 100 years + or -.

J_Player
11-29-2010, 01:22 PM
Hi J_P

Please look at again. Can you see any dowser there?

If not we can negotiate about 100 years + or -.I think signal lines were invented less than 100 years ago, some time after radio technicians discovered they could send electronic signals through the air, not 400 years ago.

Best wishes,
J_P

WM6
11-29-2010, 01:50 PM
I think signal lines were invented less than 100 years ago, some time after radio technicians discovered they could send electronic signals through the air, not 400 years ago.

Best wishes,
J_P

Yes, but you do not take in account that signal line exist in third dimension where relativity theory cancel time counting.

Mike(Mont)
12-27-2013, 05:04 PM
UPDATE MAGNACAST 5000

I probably should start a new thread here because this one is typical skeptic garbage.

Anyway, I hacked the thing and changed the gold frequency. The trim pots were so rough I could not get the frequency I wanted on the gold channel so I used the copper channel. And it was so rough I couldn't get it all that close. But it works now. I ordered some new pots. Also I found a capacitor that was not connected. There was a tiny bit of solder on the lead so I suspect it was a bad solder joint.

I found some gold with it this summer but I was using an L-rod instead of the scan gun. And I was using a different frequency yet.

I also found out I don't like the instructions for the thing. It says the power setting is for 10 meters each notch. I had it set on "2" which is 10 meters to 20 meters. One time I got a good hit and noticed the test target was closer than the 10 meters ( I was using two gold rings as the test target). So I decided to up the power and found it works much better on power setting "4". I guess the smaller test target must be some factor in this. It took me quite a while to figure the thing out because it hits on other stuff besides the gold. I actually had to get closer to the transmitter in order for the target to get isolated from the other stuff. Strange. I've got power lines, transformer, telephone lines, cast iron water pipes, manhole cover all nearby, not to mention the neighbor's stuff metal garbage cans, etc., but I'm still able to work through it. Just took many, many hours for my slow brain to digest it. More like compost. LOL

I called Vernell a few months ago and told them about the different frequency. The woman said they would return my call. They never did. I have to conclude they did want to know what frequency I was using. I'm not sure they even know that much about how to use it. The instructions were nearly all wrong.

Mike(Mont)
12-29-2013, 03:37 AM
Just so everyone knows, it was not working when I tried it today. It just wasn't locking on to the test target. I didn't wait fifteen minutes like the instructions say, didn't wait at all, so maybe that was part of it. It was cold, too.

Also, I thought I was running at "4" power setting the other day, but I looked at the dial and it was set on "3". I tried "4" the other day after I made that post and it was too much. I could not isolate the target from the other noise.

Mike(Mont)
12-31-2013, 03:58 AM
Installed a new trim pot today. It did not help very much. Obviously I don't have much electronics knowledge. I suspect I need I different value capacitor, but I did order a precision pot and I'll try that.

Mike(Mont)
01-06-2014, 11:28 PM
I got the precision pot, replaced one of the trim pots with it so it is outside case and it helped. So now I have one channel that is adjustable frequency. I just have to carry a frequency counter with me. It's still pretty touchy and the freq bounces about a tenth of a hertz. The weather is cold and windy today so I didn't get much time to work with it but it should work okay.

Napsterce
05-14-2017, 08:33 PM
Any news with this? :)

Mike(Mont)
05-15-2017, 01:30 PM
Haven't done anything with it except a new battery. Think I even salvag d the pot for another project.

Napsterce
05-15-2017, 06:10 PM
Mike do you have the schematic from the unit?

Mike(Mont)
05-16-2017, 04:31 PM
Long answer, no.

Mike(Mont)
05-17-2017, 01:40 PM
This thread is ten years old. Wish I could say I am richer. Sure feel older. :lol:

Agraz
09-14-2017, 03:22 AM
someone already has a diagram of magnacast 2000 or 5000, it seems that no longer exists the company Vernell electronics.