Bickel detector

[Seden]

Carl,

I would also be interested in your circuit. Meanwhile I've won off ebay some fairly strong radioactive rocks that I plan on using for the Compton scattering with my lowly Gamma detector. I'm going to connect up my O'scope to the output to see if there's a pulse differance between gold and any other metal. Trying to duplicate Armin Bickels machine if you will. If you have any suggestions along these lines I sure would like to hear it as I am not an engineer.

Randy Seden

[Seden]

Carl,

The Uranium Phosphate Hydrate is rated at 32,000 CPM. The plan is to have the uranium and the sensor on the same plane and have the gold in the middle and below so as to reflect the gamma rays to the sensor and look at the audio output on my scope to see if there's any differance in the pulse width of gold to nickel to silver,etc.
I sure would like to know what kind of "signature" Armin Bickel was looking at,any ideas?

[Carl-NC]

I sure would like to know what kind of "signature" Armin Bickel was looking at,any ideas?

No idea...

[J_Player]

Hi Seden. It looks like you have a good start in isotope detection. I can give you some ideas about the signatures Doctor Bickel was looking at:

Doctor Bickel did not artificially irradiate his targets. He was sensing gamma waves that emanate from gold under the ground as it decays due to reactions to naturally occurring radiation sources. Gold has several radioisotopes that emit gamma radiation in extremely small amounts. He designed his machines to detect minute traces of the stable gold nuclide 79Au196. His machine was not a simple Geiger counter. His approach in his later designs was to try to ignore the unwanted gamma waves and only look at the gold signature, or silver, copper or whatever other mineral he was looking for. He accomplished this by using methods similar to gamma spectroscopy. Since each element has it's own unique signature that can be seen using gamma spectroscopy, it is possible to differentiate between different elements using this technique. This signature is usually printed as a graph, then compared to the graphs of known elements to identify what you found. But Doctor Bickel used electronics to look at the spectrum sensed rather than printing an image.
You can see some sample graphs of signatures for elements that are sensed with gamma spectroscopy on this page about half way down the page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamma_spectroscopy

Bickel also used electronics to filter out the unwanted signals he was not interested in seeing. Remember, he was looking at extremely small amounts of gamma from deeply buried targets, and interference was always a very big problem making false readings etc. He was only able to overcome the noise and interference by using the highest grade mil-spec components, and very detailed calibration methods. With todays technology, most of the signal processing could be automated, but still there would be noise and interference problems because of the extremely minute amounts of target radiation he was detecting amidst the much larger background radiation.

In order to build a practical sensor as he had, you would start with a scintillator crystal and a photomultiplier housed in a lead tube that is open at one end. The scintillator crystal will make a faint flash of light when a gamma or alpha wave enters it. The photomultiplier will amplify this flash and convert it to an electronic signal that can be processed with electronic circuits. The signals that come from the photomultiplier can be processed to ignore the signatures you are not interested in, and to add a count to the counter when you get a signal from the element you are looking for.

The secret to success in building one of these machines is to use a high quality crystal and appropriate photomultiplier, and to accurately calibrate your electronics to recognize the signatures you are looking for. But it is equally important to understand the geology under the ground, and to know how the geological structures will influence the arrival of gamma waves to your detector.

Bickel's detectors have never been useful for locating a nugget or ring that I know of. They are better for locating large ore bodies or oil deposits.

Doctor Bickel's long range detectors are different than any other LRL in three ways:
1. They don't contain any hot-melt glue.
2. They are built entirely from understandable electronics and physical parts that any electronics engineer can understand and duplicate if he has a mind to.
3. His detectors can be demonstrated finding large deposits of ore in front of engineers and scientists as well as any other witnesses, and all agree: "it sure can find ore".

Hope this helps

[Carl-NC]

Randy, I decided to pull all this out to its own thread...

[Seden]

Carl,
Thank you very much for doing that. With J Players explanation I can now set a course and start saving up for the parts. I have seen those crystals on ebay from reputible sources for a reasonable price. I also seem to remember one of the electronic surplus houses selling them too along with the photo-multiplier tubes.
Once I achieve isolating the gamma signature for gold I certainly would like to use stacking to achieve a better signal to noise ratio-but don't know if it's possible and at what stage in the receiver chain.
Boy, what a breath of fresh air to at last know of a purely scientific method of detecting gold at a distance.

Thanks gentlemen! I hope others on this forum will join me in making a Bickel gamma-spectrometer so we can help each other.

Randy Seden

Hey who knows,maybe Damasio and Alonso might make me an offer!8)

[hung]

Once I achieve isolating the gamma signature for gold I certainly would like to use stacking to achieve a better signal to noise ratio-but don't know if it's possible and at what stage in the receiver chain.



Gamma signatures are unstable and require lots of hard work. Although it might work, there are more practical methods of achieving what you want.
There are several methods to long range gold locating. Mineoro is just a proven one (by me), alhtough it requires weather and nature cooperation sometimes.
Anyway I wish you luck.



Hey who knows,maybe Damasio and Alonso might make me an offer!8)

Don't blame other people if you can't locate gold...:D

[Seden]

Ok Hung you've got my undivided attention and I would like to know the ways you have found that work. A schematic would be good but I can work from a description just fine.

Thank you for your help,

Randy

[hung]

Randy,

You can research gamma rays at will. I'm not saying it will not work. If this bickel machine supposedly did work, I'm not the one who will state it won't. But gamma rays as you know are unstable and difficult to deal with. But if you feel you can do it, please do it . I wish you all sucess as I said.

What I'm doing right now is slowly buiding up a working group here which will deal with (in my opinion) the most useful and practical way of long range detection. It involves frequencies. Although the Mineoros work great, the ionic/electrostatic phenomena itself suffer influence of weather. For instance in rainy days, there's not sufficient ionic fields if any to be detectable. This makes research in a region where is raining, longer, as the researcher has to wait for a good weather.

So I decided to 'lay on the table' all data I have from what I know about frequencies, EM, etc. Together with great scientific minds here, I plan to develop a LRL system based on this. The technology involves filtering frequencies which are signatures of the substance to be detected.
This LRL however will be for personal use and will not be sold in case of sucess.
Regards.

[Seden]

Hung,

I really appreciate your openess with me. I am encouraged by what you are working on and wish you the best. It's kinda like were all in a research lab,each with their own assignment.
For now I'm going to stick with highlighting the dirt with Gamma Rays since I don't own one of those expensive/sensitive units and there is no reason why I shouldn't get the same results as Bickel's passive system from what I've read on Compton Scattering.

I got the literature on the "KM 4000" LRL yesterday and it claims to detect gold silver and diamonds up to 2000 meters away wth it's antenna. What I find interesting is the operation frequency given as 10hz-10khz. It has a 1 year warranty and is made in Argentina.

Would be kinda fun if you lived close to New York and contacted the sales division for a demonstration.:angry:

Randy

[Seden]

After much searching I found the explanation of the Gamma "Signature" that Bickel used. Goto:www.llnl.gov/str/September03/Becker.html

Ain't science wonderful?

Randy

[hung]

.

[hung]

Hi Randy,

Thanks for posting the link to that gamma ray device. Well, trough what I've read it is a step ahead as a portable unit, although it does not detect long range. You would have to get closer to the target. Add to this the fact that long time buried gold might be a little different in emitting gamma signatures as it would probably emit unexpected charges which could or could not confuse the radioisotopes detection. Anyway, if you ever put your hands on a device like that, report back your impressions. I think it could be modified to meet other requirements.

About the KM 4000, how you got the literature on it? If it was by mail, would you mind in emailing me a scanned version for instance?

I believe this device is based on the examiner from Rangertell, only it appears to have more 'acessories'. Is it swivel mounted as well?
The examiner works by aligning the antenna with the supposed signal line resonant frequency the target emits once the same frequency is met. In my view, in either case it is a broadcast transmission. And this can be traced and amplitude enhanced.
Sorry, I don't live close to NY but if you lived here in Brazil I would invite you to join my research group.

Thanks and regards.

[sammyfig]

hi, my name is sammy figueroa, i was a friend of armin bickel, i would like to know if his family still is around because im diong a dacumentary on him, about new science and dowsing, does anybody know where or who is swlling armin bickel machines, please let me know,i am a film maker and musician, thans sammy

[sammyfig]

:) hi, my name is sammy figueroa, i was a friend of armin bickel, i would like to know if his family still is around because im diong a dacumentary on him, about new science and dowsing, does anybody know where or who is swlling armin bickel machines, please let me know,i am a film maker and musician, thans sammy

[sammyfig]

:) hi, my name is sammy figueroa, i was a friend of armin bickel, i would like to know if his family still is around because im filming a dacumentary on him, about new science and dowsing, does anybody know where or who is selling armin bickel ditectors, please let me know,i am a film maker and musician, thanks sammy

[Elie]

What did I miss?

[sammyfig]

hi ellie, is there any way to speak to you, sammy

[Elie]

You can send me a message.

[sammyfig]

hi , i just wanted to know if i can speak to you about my documentary about armin bickel, im trying ti find any family member to talk too, sammy

[Max]

After much searching I found the explanation of the Gamma "Signature" that Bickel used. Goto:www.llnl.gov/str/September03/Becker.html (http://www.llnl.gov/str/September03/Becker.html)

Ain't science wonderful?

Randy

Hi Randy,
I think it's a good way. You need some photomultiplier tube e.g. Photonics or something like that, with Gamma scintillator too (small disk made of germanium etc). The approach of llnl is for hi-resolution and too difficault to homebrew...at least for a middle range hobbyst. Don't know if you could made one of these 90kelvin stuff :D but if you can would be even better.
Now you can find many tubes e.g. on ebay and from some surplus dealers in south california too...very cheap stuff and nice to experimenting with.

Problem could be that too low emission is from a target due to the absence of right Au-isothopes or you need to point device on something then giving time (hours) to collect data.

Anyway, this seems a good project maybe not for treasures but for right ores locating!

Best regards,
Max

[Elie]

Anyway, this seems a good project maybe not for treasures but for right ores locating!
That is the point which everyone seems to have missed. It has been claimed on this forum that this device is proof that "long range locators" actually work, and that it is possible to sense a very small mass of gold (or other substance) miles away. Even if "long range locators" worked (and they do not work), it would be similar to claiming that some metal detector could sense a single coin dozens of feet underground. There are metal detectors which can sense objects which are as small as coins, and there are metal detectors (with large coils) which can sense large objects dozens of feet underground, but no metal detector can sense an object as small as a coin dozens of feet underground. Similarly, Bickel's device is not a "long range locator," as it is for finding large mineral deposits, not anything as small as a cache of coins.

[J_Player]

I think it's a good way. You need some photomultiplier tube e.g. Photonics or something like that, with Gamma scintillator too (small disk made of germanium etc). The approach of llnl is for hi-resolution and too difficault to homebrew...at least for a middle range hobbyst. Don't know if you could made one of these 90kelvin stuff :D but if you can would be even better.
Now you can find many tubes e.g. on ebay and from some surplus dealers in south california too...very cheap stuff and nice to experimenting with.

Problem could be that too low emission is from a target due to the absence of right Au-isothopes or you need to point device on something then giving time (hours) to collect data.

Anyway, this seems a good project maybe not for treasures but for right ores locating!

Best regards,
Max

The isotope detectors built by Dr. Bickel did not use Germanium sensors or any cooling. Gold and other common metals have a very easily recognizable signature without the need for a high resolution of a germanium scintillator crystal. His detectors were true long distance locators for large ore bodies as well as bodies of underground water and oil. These detectors were never intended to find a single coin or even a large cache of metal. They are best suited to pinpoint large deposits of ore, like a a 20-ton deposit of copper ore for example, up to 5000 feet deep. There is no need to wait a long time to collect samples. These detectors are commonly used to survey an area of land from a small airplane flying in a grid pattern, or from a car driving in a grid pattern. In addition, the operator of this ion detector needs to be familiar with the way the subterranean geology will influence and skew the readings if he wants to be able to accurately interpret the results.

The web page link shows a different variety of isotope sensor that is optimized to give very high resolution for identifying elements used in explosives. While this technology is different than the Bickel machines, the final stage of spectral analysis is very similar. The Bickel detectors also generate an output that can be charted similar to the chart on the web page, but without the fine resolution. If you were to draw a line to show the curve without the sawtooth fluctuations, it is what the Bickel detectors are sensing. There is more than enough information in this lower resolution curve to easily identify the common minerals like copper, gold, silver etc. The only difficult part of building a homebrew version is to calibrate the electronics to recognize the isotope that you are looking for. This requires an oscilloscope and samples that have been irradiated to put out large amounts of known signatures to calibrate it against (the irradiated samples can be omitted if you have a table that specifies the signature so you can calibrate the electronics). It is also important to use a high quality scintillator crystal and photomultiplier tube in order to sense the low level natural gamma radiation. Keep in mind, if you build one of these machines, you should not expect to find nuggets or treasure chests full of metal objects, only larger ore bodies, water and oil.

Hope this helps
J_Player

[robert]

:angry: :angry: :angry:

*Notable isotopes of Gold
*Au(195) (116 neutrons)
Abundance: synthetic
Half life: 180.10 days {Electron capture}
Decay energy: 0.227MeV
Decays: 195pt.
*Au(196) (117 neutrons)
Abundance: synthetic
Half life: 6.183 days {Electron capture}
Decay energy: 1.506MeV
Decays: 196pt.
Half life:6.183 days (beta")
Decay energy:0.686MeV
Decay to Hg(196).
*Au(197) (118 neutrons)
Abundance: 100%
Stable with 118 neutrons
*Au(198) (119 neutrons)
Abundance: synthetic
Half life: 2.69517 (beta")
Decay energy: 1.372MeV
Decays to Hg(198)
*Au(199) (120 neutrons)
Abundance: synthetic
Half life: 3.169 days {beta"}
Decay energy: 0.453MeV
Decays to Hg(199).

Gold is usually found in veins in the crust,with copper ore and natively.
Pure gold is too soft for ordinary use and is hardened by alloying
with silver,copper and other metals.
So are those alloys with different preferences than pure gold?
How about,if we just try to imagine REAL NATURAL CONDITIONS? How many elements mixed up
in the ground?
How many isotopes in "runing" half lives at that moment? How about overall radiation at
that very moment? What is with all other natural causes at that very moment?
Radio ways,interferences,hums,moisture...natural radiation????
How about sun rays radiation? Ha,ha,ha!!! If you farth at that moment, it can radiate also!
"...It involves frequencies..."
So you mentioned frequency.....Ha,ha,ha,ha!!!! Hung you must be great joker!? Or the biggest
crackpot i ever seen so far!?
Please dont even try to argue with me on this! I am dealing with frequencies all my life.
I am professional on that field, doing that for living...Just shut up about radio ways and
frequencies....just shut up, please!
Have you ever heard about NMR??? Just google arround and try to learn something....
WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT,HERE, PEOPLE??? ARE YOU AWARED OF IMPOSSIBILLITY DOING THAT YOU'VE
TALKING ABOUT?
Custom LRL (gamma)......my ***! Never happened, not possible! Only charlatans and naives are
thinking that way! Crackpots also!
Oh, yes! You can detect gamma rays in especially prepared conditions, to aprox. distinguish
its origin.....let's say from gold....Yes! I agree. But only in experimental, already prepared
conditions...and NOT AT LONG RANGE AT ALL!
Again hung with his theories!? Again mineoro??? Again "secret" scientific principles?
Oh man! I am going to jump from nearest clif, to kill my self!
Good bye life!
P.S.
If St.Peter ask me why i killed myself, i am gonna put all guilts to this lrl nonsences...
Than i can suggest him to take Minelab or Fisher or White's or Garrett or any other
REAL detector
and we can go prospecting heaven....at least no lrl'st there...
:razz: :razz: :razz:

[robert]

????? Dont know why this stupid engine put this stupid smiley8) instead number 8...?????


Carl, what is this about?

Any way to type number 8 without 8) ???

[ivconic]

:)
Glavonjo, zasto se ne javljas bre?
Javi se na mail...
Pozdrav!
:)

[Seden]

Du kennst Ivonic, manchmal verstehe ich gerade dich nicht.

[ivconic]

:)
Traurig, wurde es an Robert gerichtet ...

Respekt!
:)

[Max]

????? Dont know why this stupid engine put this stupid smiley8) instead number 8...?????


Carl, what is this about?

Any way to type number 8 without 8) ???

Hi robert,
maybe that was a smiley...ehm
it happens when an '8' char is followed by a round closed brace ')'.
First time I saw that I said "what the hell is..." but now I'm close to a solution:)


HERE IS THE PROOF:

WITH SPACE BETWEEN 8 )
WITHOUT SPACE BETWEEN 8)

So the engine is not so stupid...maybe you can escape that pearl with some escape sequence :D.

Anyway, I think it means a short form for
8 - ) that is "i have googles up"

So 8) is "I have GOOGIES" ??? :cool:

Best regards,
Max

[Max]

Hi robert,

AFTER A LOT OF SEARCH , FINALLY, A SOLUTION WAS FOUND :razz: :razz: :razz:

check the "[] Disable smilies in text" checkbox
in "Additional options" panel
just before push "Submit" button

:rolleyes:

Isn't it easy ???:thumb:

Best regards,
Max

[robert]

:D
Thank a lot, Max!
:D