View Full Version : Knouzm in Brazil
Hey, guess what? I just found that Knouzm has now a representative in Brazil.
I called and convinced him to go out to test the baby bellow which he sells.
http://knouzm.net/en/dis-300.html
I don't think I will have time to travel to another state just to do this , so I will contact one of my team members who live closer to know if he can do it.
I asked the representative to receive the manual in my email. Price is 'bitter' like any Knouzm.
Very interesting.
I just read the manual and it works by temperature comparisons. That is, this device is a digital infrared thermometer which measure soil/ground temperatures related to royal, noble metals which absorb heat and get warmer than the surrounding soil environment.
It pocesses several laser beam patterns. What it does is that when pointed to a target, the infra red thermometer lens focus the energy colected onto a sensor. Then, this is translated into a voltage signal which is directly proportional to the received energy amount. This is all done by an internal microprocessor which displays values which guide the user to know the target's location and the depth it might be.
For caves, the opposite is performed, which gives a lower temperature then the average surrounding.
You turn the detector on , measure the temp in 4 directions, (N, S, E, W) and then with this computed value you start the search.
Although I find very plausible its working method, I have doubts it will work all the time, regarding different soil conditions, but I will try to see if my team member spends an afternoon testing the unit.
If if proves ok, it will be a good mate for my Mineoro, specially because this laser device is supposed to work better at night.
Morris_jo
03-21-2007, 07:47 PM
Hi Hung :
i hope you can test this laser device , and get back with the test field results.
i was interested to own a laser device like : Dis-300, i have alot of treasure locations i must test them out .
pls if you have the manual , is it possible to send me a copy .... :)
Best Regrads
Hi Hung :
i hope you can test this laser device , and get back with the test field results.
i was interested to own a laser device like : Dis-300, i have alot of treasure locations i must test them out .
pls if you have the manual , is it possible to send me a copy .... :)
Best Regrads
Alright.
Post your email and I'll send it to you. I found the manual to be more of an advertising brochure than a manual itself. English is bad written and confusing. Anyway my interest on it is also to pile information on the technology necessary for me to make the ionic fields viewable in the field.
Note that this model DS 300 is probably outdated since Kellyco is selling the DS600. I might be wrong tough. Fact is the Knouzm price is so outrageous that I will even bother to mention it.
Although I find very plausible its working method, I have doubts it will work all the time, regarding different soil conditions, but I will try to see if my team member spends an afternoon testing the unit.
If if proves ok, it will be a good mate for my Mineoro, specially because this laser device is supposed to work better at night.
Trying a new scam angle, eh? No matter how much snake oil you pour on your scam Mineore device, it is still the same ole scam. Only now, it is a oil covered scam.
J_Player
03-22-2007, 04:37 PM
The "Laser Gun (DIS 300) device detecting for Gold, Treasures and Caves" is actually an infrared thermometer that appears to be an instrument manufactured by Oakton Instruments in Illinois, or a very close copy of one. Oakton's Infrapro line of infrared thermometers used a laser beam to indicate where the sensor was aimed at, along with a circle of 9 laser beams to define the limits of the spot where the temperature was being sampled. They discontinued this model and returned to a single laser beam to indicate where the sensor is pointed. The new models are the same as the old models, except for the 9 perimeter lasers were removed, and the center laser was changed to a brighter beam. Do you suppose these LRL vendors began selling surplus discontinued inventory at the same time Oakton and other manufactures stopped selling the old units with the "ring of laser beams"? Isnt Knouzm is now marketing a treasure sensing thermometer with a ring of 9 laser lights, with claims that there is a ".g" and a ".c" indicator that tells the presence of gold and caves?
I am familiar with infrared thermometers, as I have used them for years to make preliminary surveys in buildings for warm and cold areas in connection with locating sources of leaks and moisture intrusion. I can guarantee that Oakton Instruments never included any gold or cave sensors in their thermometers, nor did any other thermometer manufacturer that I know of. Yet these infrared thermometers could be useful in finding treasures under certain conditions. I have never used an infrared thermometer to try to locate treasure, but from my experience in locating framing behind walls, cold draft locations, and damp areas, I can see some possible uses in treasure hunting:
1. If a cave has a warm or cold draft exiting from its mouth, and the thermometer is within range, then you will see that the temperature is different than the surrounding areas. This does not guarantee you found a cave, but it is a temperature anomaly that could be a cave. It could also be a damp area of soil where ground water has come to the surface, or a number of other things that would cause a different temperature in that location.
2. If you are surveying an area closer than 50 meters, these thermometers could be used to search for warm and cool spots on the ground or hillside. A warm or cool spot does not equal treasure. It means only that a spot is warm or cool. If you find a spot that is warmer or cooler than the surrounding area, this could be for a number of reasons: In the hot sun, dark colored surfaces are usually warmer than light colored surfaces. Also, damp surfaces are usually cooler than dry surfaces.
The most likely way to find an anomaly under the surface is when the surface temperature changes. ie: Suppose the clouds move to cover an area that was in the hot sun for several hours. After maybe 10 minutes in the shade, the surface will start to lose it's heat. If there is some large object under the surface (or on the surface) that has a different specific heat than the surrounding surface, then it will lose heat at a different rate, and you will be able to sense it as a different temperature after the area has been cooling for a sufficient amount of time. This principle could also work to find a cold spot in an area that was shaded for a long time, and was suddenly exposed to the sun. The thermometer could also show areas that retained residual heat into the night after the surrounding areas cooled. Another use for infrared thermometers could be to follow cold drafts or trails of dampness to their source, if it was thought that this could help find a treasure.
How sensitive is the infrared thermometer? The models sold by knouzm and Kellyco will indicate 1/10 of a degree change. The absolute temperature can be calibrated if necessary, but This is of little use to the average treaure hunter on foot. The necessary temperature range in the field would be probably from -10C to 200C, but you would most likely find temperatures from 10C to 70C in normal use. Data logging features are of little use in the field unless you need to log a number of temperatures over a period of time, as in timed temperature changes as an engine heats up.
Do these thermometers detect buried gold? Not gold specifically. They could detect any metal or other substance that retains heat differently than the surrounding soil. This includes iron, copper, brass, silver, lead, water, wood, a hollow cavern, or practically anything different than the surrounding soil.
What do infrared thermometers really cost? It depends on what features you want. What is nice about these thermometers is that a very cheap model gives 0.1 degree resolution, and shows very subtle changes in temperature over a surface. I use a 0.1 degree resolution model for preliminary surveys before getting out the infrared cameras to make thermal images of a surface. You can buy a new infrared thermometer for $20 to $100 on ebay that has the same resolution as some of the $650 industrial models, but lacks the extra data-logging and other features.
Why do the industrial infrared thermometers cost up to $700 or more? Because they include a number of features that are expensive. Here are some of these extra features that raise the cost of an infrared thermometer:
1. Higher D:S ratio, or narrower angle where the beam is focused (this means you can sense the temperature of a smaller spot from a distance without needing to move closer to the spot).
2. Extra lasers to tell where the sensor is focused (helps to insure you are measuring on target).
3. Higher temperature range - up to 900C
4. Provisions to calibrate to traceable standards for accurate absolute temperatures.
5. Data logging electronics to remember previous measurements that were made.
6. Thermocouple input port for dual sensing mode
7. Data output ports for computer logging applications
You will notice that none of these advanced features are very useful to the treasure hunter on foot except maybe having a narrower sensor beam width. Most $39.95 thermometers have the exact same 0.1 resolution as the expensive industrial models. And since all we want to do is find anomalies, the resolution and D:S ratio are all that really count.
If you wanted the ultimate in the knouzm class of infrared thermometers, you could buy a new Oakton model for under $650 that has more buttons and controls than you need. Or, for a little more than a Knouzm thermometer, you could buy a thermal imaging camera (starting at about $7000), that will show you a camera-like thermal image of the scene you're are looking at.
Now let's look at the Kellyco thermometers. The DIS600 pro is not from the same manufacturer as the Knouzm thermometer. The Kellyco DIS600 is manufactured by Cole Parmer. In the Cole Parmer catalog, we see they no longer sell their 16-point laser circle model, as this has been replaced by a new, improved 2-point rotating spot lasers that indicate the exact distance to focus for the best target resolution. However, Kellyco is selling you a lot of other expensive features that the average treasure hunter has no use for, such as: Hi/low alarms, max/min temp, -diff, average, data output, and 100 point data logging. How would a treasure hunter in the field use these features? Aren't they more appropriate for a factory environment? Kellyco does not reveal the most important features of any of these thermometers, the resolution and spot-to-distance ratio. But no problem, the Cole Parmer catalog shows that all their infrared thermometers have 0.1 degree resolution and lists the spot-to-distance ratios. So even if these are discontinued Cole Parmer thermometers, they should have 0.1C resolution. It seems that the current model Cole Parmer thermometers with similar specifications cost less than the Kellyco price. However, a Cole Parmer thermometer without the un-needed features cost in the $600-700 range.
After seeing what is available from Kellyco and knouzm, I wonder if the $100 ebay thermometers can do just as good a job at locating temperature anomalies as their "treasure hunting" thermometers. If your "team member" decides to test the knouzm thermometer, why not take along a $100 ebay thermometer to compare the results. Do you think the $6000 knouzm thermometer can out-perform the ebay thermometer in locating temperature anomalies in the soil?
If you are interested in shopping for an infrared thermometer to use in treasure hunting, there are only 3 specifications that I would look for:
1. Temperature range should be at least from freezing to boiling temperature (most are a lot more than this).
2. Resolution should be better than 0.3 degree.
3. Distance to spot ratio: Higher is better. With a ratio of 8:1, you can measure the temperature of a 1 meter circle from 8 meters away. A 50:1 ratio allows you to measure the same 1 meter circle from 50 meters way. When looking for temperature deviations at close distances the ratio does not matter, but a high ratio can save you a lot of walking if you want to scan a large area for hot/cold spots. You can be sure the price goes up beyond $39.95 as the D:S ratio goes up above 12:1.
Here are some fun links if you are interested in infrared thermometers:
See the knouzm price list for many treasure hunting devices. They list the "Laser Gun (DIS 300)" inrfared thermometer at $6000:
http://www.knouzm.org/index.php?module=Website&action=Text&content=1162023267016-4973&parentContent=1103896269140-1216
See the prices on the discontinued 9-spot Oakton laser models that are no longer available. (Their most expensive model may still be available for $649, but if not, you can still buy one of the new models with the single brighter laser for the same $649 or less:
http://www.innocalsolutions.com/catalog/product_compare_disc.asp?sku=3562920,3563920&cls=&par=18196&cat=1&sel=1&trs=undefined
http://www.innocalsolutions.com/catalog/product_compare_disc.asp?sku=3562930,3563930&cls=&par=18196&cat=1&sel=1&trs=undefined
http://www.innocalsolutions.com/catalog/product_compare_disc.asp?sku=3562940,3563940&cls=&par=18196&cat=1&sel=1&trs=undefined
https://www.coleparmer.com/catalog/product_index.asp?cls=43115
See what the 9 laser spots are for here:
http://www.4oakton.com/SellSheets/temp%20measurement/Temp%20B2.pdf
See pictures of the discontinued Oaktron 9-laser thermometer shooting out it's beams:
http://www.4oakton.com/SellSheets/temp%20measurement/Temp%20B2.pdf
Read how the new method of laser technology makes the old "circle of laser spots" method of range-finding obsolete:
http://www.coleparmer.com/catalog/product_view.asp?sku=3975520
See a lot of industrial infrared thermometer models here with specifications. Do you see any here that look suspiciously similar to the knouzm and Kellyco models but at a much lower price?
http://www.innocalsolutions.com/catalog/literature/1872_CP_IRTherm_brchure.pdf
See the ebay cheap infrared thermometers here. (Be sure to check out the specs before buying one of these):
http://search.ebay.com/infrared-thermometer_W0QQfromZR8QQfrtsZ50QQsubmitsearchZSea rch
ps. I see there is a fluke 68 for sale used on ebay for current bid of $76. They sell new for just under $500 and have a 50:1 D:S ratio and 0.1 degree resolution. http://cgi.ebay.com/Fluke-68-infrared-thermometer_W0QQitemZ330099757262QQcategoryZ50974Q QssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Delbert grady
03-22-2007, 05:55 PM
Well Hung, are these new devices bothered with Dicky Spy, like Mineoro
Delbert
Thanks for your insights JPlayer,
The "Laser Gun (DIS 300) device detecting for Gold, Treasures and Caves" is actually an infrared thermometer that appears to be an instrument manufactured by Oakton Instruments in Illinois, or a very close copy of one.
In fact the manual confirms that but tells that they performed modifications on the unit for treasure hunting use which also includes adding two more sensors.
I can guarantee that Oakton Instruments never included any gold or cave sensors in their thermometers, nor did any other thermometer manufacturer that I know of.
See above.
1. If a cave has a warm or cold draft exiting from its mouth, and the thermometer is within range, then you will see that the temperature is different than the surrounding areas. This does not guarantee you found a cave, but it is a temperature anomaly that could be a cave. It could also be a damp area of soil where ground water has come to the surface, or a number of other things that would cause a different temperature in that location.
Correct. The same applies for gold. But they claim that if in the main display appears say 79 and you move the device slightly to either side and the numbers dimish gradually say for78, 77, etc. Then highly likely there's a target there indeed. But if from 79 for instance it drops to 54, then it might be a metal rock or some false diagnostics I will not go over now.
The most likely way to find an anomaly under the surface is when the surface temperature changes. ie: Suppose the clouds move to cover an area that was in the hot sun for several hours. After maybe 10 minutes in the shade, the surface will start to lose it's heat.
That's why they recomend night search for that.
The thermometer could also show areas that retained residual heat into the night after the surrounding areas cooled. Another use for infrared thermometers could be to follow cold drafts or trails of dampness to their source, if it was thought that this could help find a treasure.
Yes, I agree.
How sensitive is the infrared thermometer? The models sold by knouzm and Kellyco will indicate 1/10 of a degree change. The absolute temperature can be calibrated if necessary, but This is of little use to the average treaure hunter on foot. The necessary temperature range in the field would be probably from -10C to 200C, but you would most likely find temperatures from 10C to 70C in normal use. Data logging features are of little use in the field unless you need to log a number of temperatures over a period of time, as in timed temperature changes as an engine heats up.
They claim anything is measurable above absolute zero. So this agin reinforces the idea it might work as claimed.
Do these thermometers detect buried gold? Not gold specifically. They could detect any metal or other substance that retains heat differently than the surrounding soil. This includes iron, copper, brass, silver, lead, water, wood, a hollow cavern, or practically anything different than the surrounding soil.
It could. But gold reflects virtually all heat that it's exposed hence the 'gold' setting. Chances are that for the required temp change with all conditions in manual met, it will be gold.
I'll check that, better, I'll have my friend check that when he test the device.
Now let's look at the Kellyco thermometers. The DIS600 pro is not from the same manufacturer as the Knouzm thermometer. The Kellyco DIS600 is manufactured by Cole Parmer. In the Cole Parmer catalog, we see they no longer sell their 16-point laser circle model, as this has been replaced by a new, improved 2-point rotating spot lasers that indicate the exact distance to focus for the best target resolution. However, Kellyco is selling you a lot of other expensive features that the average treasure hunter has no use for, such as: Hi/low alarms, max/min temp, -diff, average, data output, and 100 point data logging. How would a treasure hunter in the field use these features? Aren't they more appropriate for a factory environment? Kellyco does not reveal the most important features of any of these thermometers, the resolution and spot-to-distance ratio. But no problem, the Cole Parmer catalog shows that all their infrared thermometers have 0.1 degree resolution and lists the spot-to-distance ratios. So even if these are discontinued Cole Parmer thermometers, they should have 0.1C resolution. It seems that the current model Cole Parmer thermometers with similar specifications cost less than the Kellyco price. However, a Cole Parmer thermometer without the un-needed features cost in the $600-700 range.
Thanks for the info.
Here are some fun links if you are interested in infrared thermometers:
See the knouzm price list for many treasure hunting devices. They list the "Laser Gun (DIS 300)" inrfared thermometer at $6000:
http://www.knouzm.org/index.php?module=Website&action=Text&content=1162023267016-4973&parentContent=1103896269140-1216
See the prices on the discontinued 9-spot Oakton laser models that are no longer available. (Their most expensive model may still be available for $649, but if not, you can still buy one of the new models with the single brighter laser for the same $649 or less:
http://www.innocalsolutions.com/catalog/product_compare_disc.asp?sku=3562920,3563920&cls=&par=18196&cat=1&sel=1&trs=undefined
http://www.innocalsolutions.com/catalog/product_compare_disc.asp?sku=3562930,3563930&cls=&par=18196&cat=1&sel=1&trs=undefined
http://www.innocalsolutions.com/catalog/product_compare_disc.asp?sku=3562940,3563940&cls=&par=18196&cat=1&sel=1&trs=undefined
https://www.coleparmer.com/catalog/product_index.asp?cls=43115
See what the 9 laser spots are for here:
http://www.4oakton.com/SellSheets/temp%20measurement/Temp%20B2.pdf
See pictures of the discontinued Oaktron 9-laser thermometer shooting out it's beams:
http://www.4oakton.com/SellSheets/temp%20measurement/Temp%20B2.pdf
Read how the new method of laser technology makes the old "circle of laser spots" method of range-finding obsolete:
http://www.coleparmer.com/catalog/product_view.asp?sku=3975520
See a lot of industrial infrared thermometer models here with specifications. Do you see any here that look suspiciously similar to the knouzm and Kellyco models but at a much lower price?
http://www.innocalsolutions.com/catalog/literature/1872_CP_IRTherm_brchure.pdf
See the ebay cheap infrared thermometers here. (Be sure to check out the specs before buying one of these):
http://search.ebay.com/infrared-thermometer_W0QQfromZR8QQfrtsZ50QQsubmitsearchZSea rch
ps. I see there is a fluke 68 for sale used on ebay for current bid of $76. They sell new for just under $500 and have a 50:1 D:S ratio and 0.1 degree resolution. http://cgi.ebay.com/Fluke-68-infrared-thermometer_W0QQitemZ330099757262QQcategoryZ50974Q QssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Great links thanks again.
In fact if you could test these thermoneters for Thuning, we could compare results with this DIS300 unit and see if there's any and in this case see what kind of modifications Knouzm claims to have made to allow that, if this proves true.
Dell Winders
03-22-2007, 06:18 PM
Excellent! Very accurate and useful Information, JPlayer. Thanks!
I don't know of any specific temperature that would discriminate Gold, from other anomalies either. The temperature can vary depending on several factors, so there really is no way of knowing the difference in the temperature between that of Gold, a Rock, or any other anomaly that I am aware of.
I might add that there would be no differential in temperature if the Gold is buried more than a few inches below the surface, or in a wet envoirmen. In my opinion, it is an impractical method to search for nobel metals. Dell
I don't know of any specific temperature that would discriminate Gold, from other anomalies either. The temperature can vary depending on several factors, so there really is no way of knowing the difference in the temperature between that of Gold, a Rock, or any other anomaly that I am aware of.
Dell, re-read what I said above. The manual covers this doubt. It states that if there's a rock the temp drop level will be different than that of gold. And it appears they developed a setting in the microprocessor regarding gold, due to field experiments which they now know the patterns for this metal.
I might add that there would be no differential in temperature if the Gold is buried more than a few inches below the surface, or in a wet envoirmen. In my opinion, it is an impractical method to search for nobel metals. Dell
This is featured in the manual. A deeper buried gold is less warm than one placed near the surface. But here also mass comes into play. The more mass the object exibits the more energy is translated to the system.
Anyway all of those questions will be answered as soon as I get a field report of the unit.
Esteban
03-22-2007, 09:21 PM
In two opportunities we found scorpions over 2 silver medals (in this case 2 scorpions - the landlord said: "This is the owner of the treasure", ha, ha!!!) and another time a black scorpion over copper plate. Conclussion: animals search for hotest places, in this cases directly over metals of regular size. More common are ants. The both cases I comprobe myself and can conclude 2 facts: 1. metal sites are hotest and 2. good conductive metals emit infrared.
OK. After taking a closer look on the links JPlayer provided and re-reading the Knouzm laserscan manual I came with the impression that they indeed modified the laserscans to find treasure.
1 - They redesigned the LCD screen which features 2 modes. RANGE and GOLD. First the user turn the device on and set in RANGE. This allows collecting the temperature in four directions in the ground. Then he changes to GOLD and start searching. When there's a 10 degree + change, the target is located which I suspect as I said earlier, they collected the data for gold temp location.
2 - And this second evidence may corroborate my thought of the unit being modified. This is in the manual:
NOTICE:
I- This device has been manufactured for many purposes. Regarding the
treasure haunter, two sensors were added to the device to work more
professionally in the difficulty soil and earth conditions.
So as can be seen, despite the fact that this is in fact an OAKTON unit, even if it's already discontinued, it probably was modified.
JPlayer, my invitation for you to test a regular OAKTON and compare results with my possible test is still up.
I inspected closely all the pictures of the oakton models and cocluded that the knouzm unit is not any of them altough the colors and shapes look similar. For instance, the knouzm unit has only 3 pushbuttons plus mode , the oakton 9 beam has 5 pushbuttons plus mode. The LDC in the knouzm is quite bigger than the oakton's.
Esteban
03-22-2007, 11:18 PM
Hi Hung and all: simple IR module for receiver remote control of TV can detect this difference of temperature, with adequation of the circuit for this purpose of "heat difference".
Hi Hung and all: simple IR module for receiver remote control of TV can detect this difference of temperature, with adequation of the circuit for this purpose of "heat difference".
Thanks Esteban, but you actually have to 'transport' the circuit to another one, add a microcontroler, laser (in this case class II), etc. The infra red part is just one item.
Carl-NC
03-23-2007, 03:11 AM
The DIS-300 is actually a Mastech MS6530. It's highly, highly unlikely that the DIS-300 has any modifications, certainly not with the LCD. It's also impossible that their claims are true... buried gold absolutely cannot be distinguished from anything else based on temperature.
The evidence overwhelmingly suggests that this company sells treasure hunting scams. The fact that they also sell dowsing rod devices pretty much cements that conclusion.
- Carl
Well, you probably could find a ghost with it. I hear that their presence is betrayed by a sudden temperature drop. :)
Buried metal will quickly achieve temperature equilibrium with its environment.
Thought experiment.
Let us say for the moment, that there indeed is a bar of gold, buried
under the ground, that happens to have a temperature that is a few degrees higher than its surrounding. Forget how this could happen, let's just assume that it could.
Then, at the interface between the surface of the gold bar and the ground, we would expect that the material in contact with the gold bar will experience a temperature increase and come up to the same temperature as on the gold's surface. In the process of doing that, it pulled some heat out of the gold bar.
The other atoms in the ground close to the interface material, will have their temperature increased as well. Simply because if there is a temperature differential between them, heat energy will be transferred.
This process will continue and keep pulling heat energy out of the gold bar until the temperature of the gold is in equilibrium with the surrounding dirt.
So, after this process has happened you come with your electronic thermometer and what do you see? Nada!
J_Player
03-23-2007, 04:15 AM
In two opportunities we found scorpions over 2 silver medals (in this case 2 scorpions - the landlord said: "This is the owner of the treasure", ha, ha!!!) and another time a black scorpion over copper plate. Conclussion: animals search for hotest places, in this cases directly over metals of regular size. More common are ants. The both cases I comprobe myself and can conclude 2 facts: 1. metal sites are hotest and 2. good conductive metals emit infrared.
...So did you steal the scorpion's silver medals? :lol: :lol: :lol:
... buried gold absolutely cannot be distinguished from anything else based on temperature.
- Carl
I agree. My very expensive thermocamera isn't able to detect metals in the ground. Only if a big metalic object is in the ground 10..20cm then i can detect it only at the hours of day.
buried gold absolutely cannot be distinguished from anything else based on temperature.
This is not true. Gold does produce heat when aimed with specific frequencies of laser lights and it's also used by NASA space suits for its heat reflection properties:
An Efficient Heat Ray Reflector
A fourth characteristic of gold is its ability to reflect heat rays efficiently. This is what makes it so valuable as a heat protector in space suits and vehicles. Thus films of gold so thin that they are translucent are applied to the glass of windows in both hot and cold climates. Under hot conditions, the gold eliminates glare, reflects heat from the sun and thus reduces cooling costs. Conversely, the film reflects back heat radiating from within the buildings and so reduces heating costs. Both ways are important in helping to conserve our precious energy resources.
Another property of gold is that it is an exceedingly good conductor of electricity and heat
Also see this link:
http://www.physorg.com/news63003999.html
Besides it's up to 99% Infrared reflective.
The company states that due to electron structure, gold and other royal metals retain heat longer when buried overnight.
This might or might not be true. I will make tests to corroborate this or not.
The evidence overwhelmingly suggests that this company sells treasure hunting scams. The fact that they also sell dowsing rod devices pretty much cements that conclusion.
You are presenting the same skeptic's logic of 'one size fits all'. No, one size does not fit all. If you think dowsing does not work keep it only as your opinion and not a fact.
Anyway, thanks for the information. Now since you live in US, you or anybody here could try to use the Mastech device and see if the device can be used as Knouzm says. I would try to collect data here from the DIS300.
We could compare results and only this way we would know if the Mastech has been modified or not.
J_Player
03-23-2007, 05:02 PM
I must congratulate Carl again for his excellent work in finding the exact manufacturer of the knouzm thermometer treasure finder. It's no wonder I couldn't find it because I was looking for the USA manufacturers per the Knouzm web page that says it is made in the USA.
We in the USA cannot easily test the Mastech MS6530 because it is not made or sold in the USA. This thermometer is made in China. The only place it is obtained in the USA is through the Amazon.com seller who imports it from Hong Kong.
Mastech no longer lists the MS6530 in their catalog, as it has been replaced by the newer models. As near as I can tell, the remaining surplus stock of the obsolete Mastech MS6530 thermometers can be imported direct from the Hong Kong factory contact for low factory surplus prices if you need a lot of them. Scroll to the bottom of this page and contact Connie Keung for volume discounts:
http://pmastech.manufacturer.globalsources.com/si/6008800556550/pdtl/Industrial-thermometer/8845981292/Infrared-Thermometer.htm
The Knouzm company lied to us when they said it is made in the USA on their web page (DIS 300 feature #15): http://knouzm.net/en/dis-300.html
Knouzm lied about the place this thermometer was made just like they lied about the "13 Laser Waves considered as Ground Probes to measure", and just like they lied in their manual about adding two extra sensors for the treasure hunter. This is nothing but an obsolete Mastech Infrared thermometer that you can buy for about $100 or less from a Hong Kong importer. It cannot "discover from 20 Degree C to 527 Degree C for far distances and huge depths" as the web page states. It can only measure surface temperature. The Knouzm "Laser Gun (DIS 300)" cannot find treasure any better than an obsolete Mastech MA5630. Why would anyone pay $6000 for this cheap thermometer? Because the Knouzm company lied and made them believe it was modified so it can find treasure? Hahahahaha what kind of retarded idiot would believe that crap?
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Here are some fun pages if you want to find out more about Mastech:
See animated views of the Mastech factory here. Just look at all those factory workers on the assembly line. I wonder how much Mastech would charge to rework some of the surplus MS6530 thermometers to show a .g or .c when you push the mode button button? Hmmm.. too bad you cant modify the display to say "Treasure Finding Mode".
http://www.p-mastech.com/profile_factory_tour.htm
The Mastech company is known for making electronic instruments that are sold to people who want cheap knock-offs of quality American made products. Even their factory website brags about using American brands like Wavetech, Fluke, and Techtronics to factory-test their products. http://www.p-mastech.com/profile.htm
Let's see what kind of products Mastech lists in their catalog:
http://www.mastech.com.cn/
I was not able to find anywhere to buy Mastech products online except a few items on ebay and on amazon.com. But I did find this website for a company who supplies electronics to Australia that has a Mastech product section:
http://www.transtek.com.au/products/mastech.html
OK, I found a MASTECH 6530 being sold here in an out of state store here in Brazil. Price is not as low as in the US.
Only way to know if they are similar is comparing both.
I will try to test or have someone test the knouzm device here.
Alhtough Knouzm is notorious for his outrageous prices and doubtful products, I will give them the benefit of doubt for now.
Carl-NC
03-23-2007, 06:34 PM
This is not true. Gold does produce heat when aimed with specific frequencies of laser lights and it's also used by NASA space suits for its heat reflection properties:
You are correct, gold is an excellent reflector of infrared radiation. But infrared radiation does not penetrate soil, so buried gold is not exposed to infrared radiation. Nor will those laser beams penetrate the soil, so let's not make any silly assertions that they will.
Also see this link:
http://www.physorg.com/news63003999.htmlThis irrelevant.
The company states that due to electron structure, gold and other royal metals retain heat longer when buried overnight.
This might or might not be true. I will make tests to corroborate this or not.False.
When infrared radiation hits the surface of the ground, it is converted into thermal energy, which then propagates mostly via thermal conduction, not thermal radiation. Any buried metal will take on the temperature of the surrounding soil -- again via conduction -- regardless of whether it's gold or iron or whatever. Most metals, including gold, have very high thermal diffusivity compared to the surrounding soil, so they will tend to maintain the same temperature... that is, buried metal will probably not show a thermal lag.
You are presenting the same skeptic's logic of 'one size fits all'. No, one size does not fit all. If you think dowsing does not work keep it only as your opinion and not a fact.
Every dowser who has tried to show me that dowsing works has failed miserably. When someone takes my $25,000, then I will reconsider.
Now since you live in US, you or anybody here could try to use the Mastech device and see if the device can be used as Knouzm says. I would try to collect data here from the DIS300.
We could compare results and only this way we would know if the Mastech has been modified or not.I have just purchased a MS6530 off eBay, for $59. Compare that to $2200 for the DIS-300.
- Carl
You are correct, gold is an excellent reflector of infrared radiation. But infrared radiation does not penetrate soil, so buried gold is not exposed to infrared radiation. Nor will those laser beams penetrate the soil, so let's not make any silly assertions that they will.
This irrelevant.
False.
When infrared radiation hits the surface of the ground, it is converted into thermal energy, which then propagates mostly via thermal conduction, not thermal radiation. Any buried metal will take on the temperature of the surrounding soil -- again via conduction -- regardless of whether it's gold or iron or whatever. Most metals, including gold, have very high thermal diffusivity compared to the surrounding soil, so they will tend to maintain the same temperature... that is, buried metal will probably not show a thermal lag.
Every dowser who has tried to show me that dowsing works has failed miserably. When someone takes my $25,000, then I will reconsider.
I have just purchased a MS6530 off eBay, for $59. Compare that to $2200 for the DIS-300.
- Carl
I honestly don't agree with your statements above. You are not considering earth's own emissions regarding buried metals. But let's not waste time arguing.
At least now we can count on test on your part regarding the 6530?
Carl-NC
03-23-2007, 07:06 PM
I honestly don't agree with your statements above. You are not considering earth's own emissions regarding buried metals. But let's not waste time arguing.
What emissions?
At least now we can count on test on your part regarding the 6530?
Sure.
- Carl
Too many.
Thermal emissions, radioactive emissions, etc. Most of those are undersestimated as is the radioactive power released. Earth’s bulk iron core has a high oxygen isotopic ratio.
Add to that, recent studied rare emissions in the thioindates.
J_Player
03-23-2007, 10:23 PM
Too many.
Thermal emissions, radioactive emissions, etc. Most of those are undersestimated as is the radioactive power released. Earth’s bulk iron core has a high oxygen isotopic ratio.
Add to that, recent studied rare emissions in the thioindates.
Which of these emissions do you claim are responsible for allowing us to detect buried gold with an infrared thermometer? Which studies show that rare emissions allow buried gold detection with an infrared thermometer?
Qiaozhi
03-23-2007, 11:24 PM
Well, you probably could find a ghost with it. I hear that their presence is betrayed by a sudden temperature drop. :)
Perhaps that's why Hung wrote this:
NOTICE:
I- This device has been manufactured for many purposes. Regarding the
treasure haunter, two sensors were added to the device to work more professionally in the difficulty soil and earth conditions.
:D :D :D :D :D
J_Player
03-24-2007, 01:10 AM
Don't you mean:
Regarding the treasure haunter, two sensors were added to the device to work more professionally in the difficult soul and earthly condition? :lol:
Carl-NC
03-24-2007, 02:40 AM
Too many.
Thermal emissions, radioactive emissions, etc. Most of those are undersestimated as is the radioactive power released. Earth’s bulk iron core has a high oxygen isotopic ratio.
Add to that, recent studied rare emissions in the thioindates.
I agree with JP... I fail to see what any of this has to do with using an IR thermometer on buried gold.
- Carl
I agree with JP... I fail to see what any of this has to do with using an IR thermometer on buried gold.
- Carl
Many things.
I will try to confirm them or not.
Hey,
I had a nocturnal emission the other night. Does that count?:lol:
J_Player
03-27-2007, 07:25 AM
Yesterday I made a preliminary study to learn something about using an IR thermometer for treasure hunting. I took an infrared thermometer with similar specifications to the Mastech MS6530 to the beach to see if there was any promising indications that it can be used for dry sand hunting. The thermometer was an inexpensive Alltrade model #480742, with a 0.1 degree resolution, single laser pointer, and D:S ratio of 10:1. The D:S ratio of 10:1 is fairly close to the 12:1 ratio of the Mastech MS6530, but the slight difference is not important in the close range study I conducted.
The purpose of the study was to see if this thermometer would pick up any usable readings from coin-sized objects buried in the local beach sand. If I could find some consistent readings over coins and other buried objects, then It would warrant further testing to determine how to detect these objects in the sand. I brought along a collection of small objects to bury that included the following:
New US dollar coin, silver quarter, clad quarter, sterling salt shaker 1.5" tall, sterling silver ingot 1"x2"x1/2" thick, 0.8 gram sterling silver ring, 7 gram 14K men's ring, 3.5 gram 14K womans ring, new US nickel, gold plated men's watch without band, clad dime, clad penny, aluminum dog tag 1.25 inch dia on a steel ring, aliminum clip 1/2"x1.5"x1/16" thick, nugget of melted aluminum 1"x1/2", 2 brass keys on a steel key ring, toy cast zinc car 3" long, 16-penny steel nail, 2 stainless steel buttons, 1-tablespoon stainless steel measuring spoon, bent copper strap 3"x1/2"x1/32" thick, 3-oz flat lead fishing weight, 1-oz oval lead fishing weight, lead sheet 1.5"x3/4"x0.10"
These items were chosen because they have different heat transfer properties, and are items that could be expected to be found on a beach. (in fact, all of them were found on the beach except the silver ingot and the nail). I also added a steel pliers/knife tool to see if a larger object would make any difference.
The study was performed in hazy sunshine with a cool 60F degree breeze coming from the ocean. Before conducting the study, I marked a 3-foot by 6 foot area of the sand to bury these objects. This area was located about 2 feet vertically above the high tide line in dry sand. I scanned the area with a VLF metal detector and removed all the metal targets I could find within 2 feet of the test area. Then I raked through the sand to remove any pebbles over 1/2 inch size. I took preliminary readings I took temperature readings from 6 inches above the surface. I found the sand temperature varied between 78F degrees and 110 degrees depending on where the shadows were. In order to eliminate any cool readings from shadows, I dragged a board over the sand to smooth it so there were no shadows, and waited a half hour for the temperature to stabilize. at the end of this time, a survey showed that the temperature varied between 94 and 106 with as much as a 5-degree gradient over a 1-foot area of smooth flat sand. I waited another half hour and found no change in the temperatures. Further investigation showed that the sand was damp below the dry sand at depths that varied from 4 inches to 7 inches in the test area. It seemed likely that the non-uniform damp sand beneath could be influencing the surface temperature. After checking other areas of the dry sand, I discovered this entire beach has the same uneven damp sand layer beneath the dry sand.
So I used the test area and buried the objects with their top surface 1 inch deep to see if there were any noticeable changes in the areas where they were buried. After an hour had elapsed I could find no changes. I figured that maybe these objects need to be closer to the surface to be detected with an Infrared thermometer. So I dug them up an buried them at the surface, and I covered them with 1/8 inch sand over the top. 1/2 hour later I took readings, and found that there were minor variations in temperature where a few of the objects were buried that registered up to 1F degree. The problem was that some of these readings were higher at the buried object, others were lower, as in the case of several silver objects. But most of the buried objects showed no change in temperature where they were buried.
For example, none of the gold or aluminum showed any change. The Silver ingot was 1F degree cooler, the silver salt shaker was about 1/2 degree warmer, the silver quarter showed no change. The steel pliers area was about 3/4 degree cooler. Sand is used as a thermal insulator in some heat-treating methods, as it helps buried metals to maintain their temperature. If I had to guess, I would think that the bulkier objects in this test retain their heat longer than the lightweight objects. I moved these objects from 1 inch depth of cooler sand to 1/8 inch depth, so I would expect the lighter objects to heat up more rapidly from conduction of the sand surface layer. But none of these temperature variations at the buried objects seems very significant when considering the temperature gradients of the sand area before burying these objects. If I also consider the high temperature variations caused by shadows from the footprints in the sand, I can't imagine finding any buried objects anywhere on the beach this day using an infrared thermometer.
After running this preliminary study, I was left with a feeling that Infrared may not be a very good tool to detect small objects buried in the local beach sand. The biggest problem is the sand temperature varies with the shadows from footmarks in sand to enough to obscure the targets during the daylight. Second, it appears small targets need to be close to the surface in order to detect the small temperature variation at all in the daylight, and so far, I got no consistent readings on the buried objects. The cheapest metal detector can locate buried objects better than the infrared thermometer did in this study. Keep in mind this is only a simple study, not a definitive test. And my feelings are only applicable to what I experienced at this particular beach.
I think that there still may be some use for infrared possibly for larger objects closer to the surface. If an object is buried in soil that allows bulky objects to heat up during the day, then these objects may retain their heat into the twilight and dark times. This may work better in regular soil than in beach sand. If such a condition of lingering warm spots on the surface exists, then I think a thermal imaging camera is a much better tool to find the warm and cold spots rather than an infrared thermometer.
(Unrelated note: While I was waiting for the test area sand temperature to stabilize, I hunted the beach with my VLF metal detector and found a handful of coins and a 14K gold ring that I dug from 7 inch depth).
Your findings are pretty much in agreement with my thought experiement ealrier in this thread.
Although a good start, your test is incomplete and may not garantee precise conclusions.
1 - If infrared can indeed be used for treasure hunting, then the most propicious time of day to perform the tests would be at night. When the surrounding environment (soil) is less warm and the metal object which might absorb heat and release it in longer periods than that of the soil. You did the opposite. In an already hot soil, you placed the objects and waited for them gain heat.
2 - The manual of the DIS300 which I had acess says two importoant things. First that noble metals behave differently than common metals regarding heat absorption and release. Second, it also leads to believe the device was somewhat modified for treasure huntiing , hence two different settings on it. Wheter this is true or not I or somebody will have to perform a test (according to the procedures the manual covers) in order to know if this is true or not.
3 - Beaches may not be good soil environments for those kind of tests. Sand temperature varies dramatically depending on what section of the beach you measure, besides the fact that it's highly rich in Cl and Na.
A test in other soil shall be necessary.
Add to this the fact that all your tests were made in disturbed soil, when there's a chance of air present. A natural buried target will have the soil undistrubed and compact.
Don't know if this might prove relevant in the end or not. But it's just a thought.
Anyway as soon as I have time I will try to test a regular Mastech 6530 which I found in a store in Brazil, (although out of state) and the DIS300 to see if there's a noticeble difference or not.
J_Player
03-28-2007, 05:03 PM
My test was not intended to be complete. It was only a preliminary study: Yesterday I made a preliminary study to learn something about using an IR thermometer for treasure hunting...
The purpose of the study was to see if this thermometer would pick up any usable readings from coin-sized objects buried in the local beach sand.
Keep in mind this is only a simple study, not a definitive test. And my feelings are only applicable to what I experienced at this particular beach.
I wanted to see if a cheap infrared thermometer would be a useful tool to take along to the beach with my metal detector to help locate lost coins and jewelry. I do not go to the beach to hunt for lost coins in the dark, only during daytime. Therefore I conducted a preliminary study to see if i could spot any promise for the IR thermometer in the daylight. It should be noted that all of the sand at the beach is disturbed sand. The waves and tide disturb the wet sand continually, and people make new footprints every day, as well as digging holes and building sand castles, etc. Also, unlike other soils, beach sand cannot be compacted in any measurable amount, and has the same compaction whether disturbed or not. The dry sand at this beach is fairly uniform in composition, but the underlying dampness depth is not.
By smoothing out the test area, I actually created a pseudo-laboratory condition that does not exist in our local beaches. I expect this smooth area should give much better readings than the beach sand in the state as I found it. Yet the results I saw were still useless for me to use at this beach in the daylight, even if the entire beach were to be smoothed like the test area. In actual daytime beach conditions, there is no way this thermometer could find treasure except by accident.
I did take some readings on undisturbed soil also. What I found is the soil was not as hot as the beach sand in general. Also that the shadows in the undisturbed soil were cooler than the sunlit areas. But the coolest temperatures I read in the soil were places where the soil was damp or wet. I noticed there was no temperature difference in the locations where my metal detector told me there was an aluminum can buried, and other metal trash. I did not bother to dig any targets in the regular soil areas, because the only targets I found were shadows and wet areas.
As far as conducting night tests, I would not consider doing this with an infrared thermometer. In order for any instrument to be useful for finding treasure, it must be able to indicate the location of the treasure in a reasonably short period of time. It takes about a second for the temperature reading to stabilize, and you need to take hundreds of readings to scan a small area. If I wanted to test for warm/cold spots in the dark, I would use a thermal imaging camera that makes an infrared picture of the entire field of view showing very slight temperature variation.
For finding small coin-sized targets, an infrared thermometer must be used at fairly close range because of the angle of its sensing beam. The Mastech 6530 views a 4 inch circle if held 4 feet away from the ground. This may be acceptable for reading a coin sized area on the ground within 6 foot radius of where you are standing. But to survey an area 60 feet away, you are sensing a 6 foot diameter circle of land. I seriously doubt you would detect a coin-sized area that had 1 degree variation inside the 6 foot circle that represents the single pixel of the infrared thermometer. But only testing will verify this.
An interesting experiment would be to have someone place a gold ring that was heated to boiling temperature on the surface of the ground at 60 feet distance during the night, and see if the thermometer is useful for locating the ring. See if the person holding the thermometer can recover the ring from 60 feet. If not, try 50 feet. then closer and closer until it can be recovered. This will tell the limits of the range for this thermometer sensing a 100C temperature gold ring at night.
I suspect that if there is any truth to the concept that buried gold makes measurable surface temperature changes, then you could repeat the same experiment by burying an unheated ring in the undisturbed soil. This will tell you if your thermometer can find gold at night.
Your best test to see if the DIS300 has extra gold and cave sensors added is to take one apart and see for yourself. I am sure Carl will be happy to post photos of the insides of his Mastech 6530 so you can see if there is any difference. I would be surprised if you can find any extra sensors such as a tiny chamber with gold in it, or a tiny chamber with a miniature cave in it.
I seriously doubt you would detect a coin-sized area that had 1 degree variation inside the 6 foot circle that represents the single pixel of the infrared thermometer. But only testing will verify this.
Manual states that if a target is located, a 10 degree variation will happen.
An interesting experiment would be to have someone place a gold ring that was heated to boiling temperature on the surface of the ground at 60 feet distance during the night, and see if the thermometer is useful for locating the ring. See if the person holding the thermometer can recover the ring from 60 feet. If not, try 50 feet. then closer and closer until it can be recovered. This will tell the limits of the range for this thermometer sensing a 100C temperature gold ring at night.
Yes, although this would be an 'artificial' procedure to simulate an extreme condition of the sample in order to verify range, I really can't tell if the target's natural way of heating in the soil environment will make a difference in terms of electrons structure change in a way that it could be detectable.
Your best test to see if the DIS300 has extra gold and cave sensors added is to take one apart and see for yourself. I am sure Carl will be happy to post photos of the insides of his Mastech 6530 so you can see if there is any difference. I would be surprised if you can find any extra sensors such as a tiny chamber with gold in it, or a tiny chamber with a miniature cave in it.
The manual clearly states that 2 extra sensors were added to the original device. It this is true, then the microprocessor part also was changed or tweaked.
There are 2 modes. First you set in range, sensing the soil in 4 directions (N-S-W-E) to give a chance for the device collect temp data uniformily. Then you change to 'gold' and begin your search. Whenever there's a 10 degree variation, chances are you found something. Then aproach the spot and and locate the exact point of higher temp. Then move device sideways so you see how it will decrement. If it's a smooth change, you found somehting. If there's a violent variation then either it's a rock or unkown concentration.
For a cave, the opposite in temp variation will happen.
Besides your suggestion, I would like to hear other test suggestions from posters to be done when my friend gets the chance to try the device.
J_Player
03-28-2007, 06:40 PM
Yes, although this would be an 'artificial' procedure to simulate an extreme condition...
Besides your suggestion, I would like to hear other test suggestions from posters to be done when my friend gets the chance to try the device.
I suspect that if there is any truth to the concept that buried gold makes measurable surface temperature changes, then you could repeat the same experiment by burying an unheated ring in the undisturbed soil. This will tell you if your thermometer can find gold at night.
Try finding the target during the night after you bury the gold.
Hi J_Player,
Could you please make another small test with your IR thermometer?
Really simple -->
Put on table (indoor) few paper sheets of different colour (black, white, red, etc..) and record Temp. readings for each colour (from same distance).
I had IR thermometer while ago ... It was very unstable I belive this issue has not changed in few years..or what?
Also all please remember what Geo posted on 08-31-2006
Hi. I believe that the thermal camera is not good for treasure hunting. I have a very good and expensive thermal camera (about 40.000$ before 5 years by Agema ) and i made a test with it.
I placed in-depth a sheet-metal roughly 30 x 40 cm from in the soil 30 cm her outline he became perceptible for roughly 12 hours. Afterwards the byway of one day and after became balance of temperatures between soil and sheet-metal the thermal camera did not show difference of colours in the point that I placed the sheet-metal
Of course I do not know what will show if some object is in ground for a lot of years. If it had the possibility of detecting objects in the ground then they would be a horrible solution because it has the possibility of searching a big extent with one only photograph and afterwards in the computer we locate precisely the point with the different temperature.
Very nice conducted tests from J_Player - congratulations. Maybe even dear Hung can learn something from you.
My only thought on this: With IR-thermometers/cameras you can measure temp. of only TOP surface of ground which is in constant interaction with air.... Add to this vegetation, relief, wind. Hey what are you actually measuring?? :???:
If someone would like to achieve any real detecting this way:
*Resolution 0.1 degree is not quite enough.. you can buy good 0.01 degree digital thermometer with RS232 interface for about 300eur.
*Timing is quite critical...
*Use a needle-type sensor to measure temp. directly under topsoil and vegetation (15cm).
*Work in predetermined (marked) grid and record readings.
*Plot the readings.
You can not find coins, etc. But you can discover whole buried city ;) .
I mean buried walls, ditches, wells, roads, BIG bronze statues :rolleyes: ...
J_Player
03-28-2007, 10:37 PM
Hi Leto. Thanks for the info from geo. I just performed your test:
I put the sample papers on a carpet which is on top of my concrete garage floor. The carpet is high quality Dupont Tactess carpet for indoor use with no carpet pad under it. There is a fluorescent light fixture located 7 feet above these papers with two 40 watt fluorescent tubes in it. I placed a notebook with 32 yellow pages on the carpet and yellow notebook paper on the carpet and a white paper the same size on the carpet below the light. These papers were placed side by side with 1 cm spacing between them. I waited 15 minutes, then I measured the temperature of the papers by scanning all over the page with my Alltrade #480742 infrared thermometer held 6 inches above the pages. Here are the results I measured:
Carpet temperature measured 5 cm away from all the edges of the papers: 17.5C to 18.4C
Yellow notebook with 32 pages - temperature of top page: 17.8C to 18.4C
Black paper strip at the top of the tablet (2cm x 21.5 cm): 17.6C to 18.5C
Single yellow page on the carpet: 18.1C to 18.8C
Single white page on the carpet: 18.0C to 18.5C
These temperatures that I measured are not stable. They change every time you measure. I believe the temperatures measured depend on the air temperature and air currents in the vicinity of the paper surface.
The temperature of colored objects in the sunlight is largely influenced by the radiant heat of the sun. The darker objects usually absorb more of the sun's heat than light colored objects. You can feel this by placing your hand on a dark surface, and then on a light colored surface in the sunlight. Indoor fluorescent lights at 7 feet distance do not supply nearly as much radiant heat for these objects to collect.
My conception of treasure hunting with thermal cameras is similar to yours: it would be best suited to finding much larger objects that would retain large amounts of heat. And My conception is the reliability in locating these objects would be marginal to good, depending on the depth, the composition of the object, and the composition of the surrounding matrix. I doubt infrared sensing a buried object has anything to do with the electron structure change as Hung suggests, but is more related to specific heat and heat transfer properties, primarily conduction.
My infrared thermometer is not unstable. It measures the temperature accurately and it will repeat it's results accurately. The temperature of the items I measure are often unstable. Do not expect good repeatability on objects like paper or other lightweight objects exposed to air currents. Otherwise you will be measuring the temperature of the air that recently contacted the object.
J_Player
J_Player
04-02-2007, 09:18 AM
Here is a page that shows a study of locating land mines with an infrared camera: http://www.ees.nmt.edu/Hydro/landmine/pub/spie2002_thermal.pdf
This study shows that it is difficult to find land mines with certainty using an infrared camera, and the success depends on the variation of temperature during the day as well as the kind of soil and the moisture content of the soil. They found that the best times to look for the buried mines was in a time range centered around 12 am and 12 pm. From what I read in this study, the success in locating buried mines can range from poor to impossible, meaning that you can find them sometimes. Note that these mines are massive objects compared to the coins and rings I was surveying with my thermometer, and the camera they used was more sensitive than my thermometer.
Carl-NC
04-02-2007, 02:21 PM
Note that these mines are massive objects compared to the coins and rings...
They also have a higher thermal mass, lower thermal conductivity, and lower thermal diffusivity than metal. This actually makes mines easier to find than metal. So locating buried metal using this method will be difficult indeed.
- Carl
yaseen68
10-09-2010, 10:07 AM
I need the dis 300 schematic please
goldfinder
10-09-2010, 11:14 PM
I bought a Harbor Freight laser thermometer a few years back - works fine for me. Seems like I paid about $30 for it. I use it in the lab when doing experiments that involve heat to tell me if something is cooled enough for me to touch it or if the chemical reaction is finished or whatever.
I worked on various types of IR systems for the military when I was a consultant doing all things wild and esoteric like image signal processing and I can verify with Carl - IR is a waste of time as a treasure hunting tool. :nono:Save your money and buy a good metal detector :) or if you can dowse get a couple of coat hangers.:cool:
Goldfinder
J_Player
10-10-2010, 01:02 AM
I bought a Harbor Freight laser thermometer a few years back - works fine for me. Seems like I paid about $30 for it. I use it in the lab when doing experiments that involve heat to tell me if something is cooled enough for me to touch it or if the chemical reaction is finished or whatever.
I worked on various types of IR systems for the military when I was a consultant doing all things wild and esoteric like image signal processing and I can verify with Carl - IR is a waste of time as a treasure hunting tool. :nono:Save your money and buy a good metal detector :) or if you can dowse get a couple of coat hangers.:cool:
GoldfinderYes, the infrared thermometers are an amazing tool. They can be used to measure the temperature of skin, walls, rotating machinery, bearings, flames, and a lot of things that are harder to measure with other methods. But they suck for trying to find small buried items. If anyone thinks they may find some good treasure hunting results with an infrared thermometer, they don't need to spend $600 or more. The $30 Harbor Frieght model works just as well. The sensing parts are all the same. And you can find these on ebay new for a similar price. Try out the cheap model and see if it helps you find treasure. If it doesn't work for finding treasure, then you have a good tool for measuring temperature around the home and lab. :)
.... And you don't have the bad feeling you wasted $600 or $3500!
Best wishes,
J_P
Last days a person called me, he want my thermocamera. He want to make some experiments and after it to go for treasure hunting.
As he said me one of the team has a device who bombard the ground (i don't know with what rays) so after it the thermocamera has the ability to "see" the objects inside the soil. I did not meet him still.
If i will go for the experiment, i will inform the forum
Regards
Please, one more question for thermal imagers. A search for buried hole? 1-2 days after rain. And then check with the detector?
J_Player
12-05-2010, 04:09 PM
Please, one more question for thermal imagers. A search for buried hole? 1-2 days after rain. And then check with the detector?You can expect a thermal imaging camera to find buried objects more easily when there is a large temperature change at the soil surface. This can be seen best when the ground surface is hot during the day and cold in the evening. The best times to look are expected to be when the ground becomes cold after sundown.
It is also expected a thermal imaging camera will find large objects close to the surface more easily than smaller objects, and objects that are buried deep.
I would expect you can find buried objects more easily when there has not been rain for at least a few days. My opinion is dry soil works better, but I don't know from actually finding treasure. I do know that variations in damp ground cause very large temperature changes which could mask the location of a large buried non-soil object.
Best wishes,
J_P
Thank you very much for your reply.
My theory: find out where the thermal imager was disturbed land. Excavated pit and buried.
Buried pit is wetter, cooler .(??)In the disturbed soil may be buried metal.With a camera but not search metal land disturbance. A detector check.
J_Player
12-05-2010, 06:35 PM
Thank you very much for your reply.
My theory: find out where the thermal imager was disturbed land. Excavated pit and buried.
Buried pit is wetter, cooler .(??)In the disturbed soil may be buried metal.With a camera but not search metal land disturbance. A detector check.You will find large differences in temperature on the surface of the soil depending on the moisture content, the sun shining, the wind, and the humidity.
People report that for finding buried metal, the afternoon and early evening is best. I have read no reports about finding disturbed soil. But I have experience from using Infrared thermometers, and cameras. Some examples:
1. Digital thermometer:
When using an ifrared thermometer, the surface temperature changes for the same soil when you move the thermometer from shadow to sunshine at close distance. You will see sometimes up to 50 degrees difference, but usually 10-20 degrees cooler in shadows of the same soil. When the same soil changes from wet to dry, you will also see changes maybe the same as caused by shadows or less.
From a larger distance, maybe 5-10 meters small shadows are not seen, only the larger shadows. But the temperature of the ground can be seen to change when the ground is changed. For example, ground with a grass lawn shows a different temperature than the same ground with no grass or plants on it. And when the ground changes from soil to concrete, or to asphalt, or other kind of soil, then the temperature usually shows a change. These changes are easiest to see when there is good sunlight on the surface (day time).
2. Thermal imaging camera:
A thermal imaging camera is very good at finding very small differences in temperature and showing them in an image. I have not used these cameras for locating treasures, but I have taken them outside on occasions to see what I they would show. You will find a thermal imaging camera shows images of the area where you point it. You will also see images of things that do not exist... In a parking lot, you may see images of cold shadows where a car was parked recently. You may see images of footprints if you have a good quality thermal camera that is set for the temperature of a surface where somebody walked. You may see underground pipe locations if conditions are good. You will definitely see wet spots on the ground and on other surfaces. You may even see damp or wet objects behind walls. You may see a lot of other things I did not think to look for at the time.
Since you are looking for disturbed soil or for caves, a thermal imaging camera may be able to find temperature differences you are looking for. If the disturbed soil has the same consistency as the soil around it, then it may be difficult to see as a temperature difference. Especially if the soil has weathered to blend with the surrounding soil.
But if someone dug a hole recently and covered it back with the same soil, it will not have the same density of the soil around it. This means it will not absorb or retain water the same as the surrounding soil, and the evaporation of water will not be the same unless the density/compaction is the same. In this condition, I would expect a thermal imaging camera to show a different temperature in the location of the re-filled hole when the temperature of the soil is changing, maybe in the late afternoon. Or maybe in full sunlight if the wind is blowing hard, and not any plants on the surface.
If this same hole was dug and refilled more than 100 years ago, then maybe enough time has passed to allow natural geophysical forces to cause the fill dirt to compact and become like the surrounding soil. Or maybe not. I never checked this. If the disturbed soil has settled long enough to become the same as the surrounding non-disturbed soil, then you will not see a temperature difference caused by different density.
In any case, it is expensive to rent or to buy a thermal imaging camera. Make sure you are using one that is sensitive to very slight temperature differences in the temperature range you expect to see at the soil.
Best wishes,
J_P
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