Radionics

[hung]

Reading the examiner's explanation on Rangertell's site and looking at the pictures of the circuitry, I come to the conclusion that it's a radionic device.
User interacts with circuit and becomes probably the main component.
Radionics were famous in the 30's and I researched it a lot in the past by the works of Abrahams, Drown and others when I was involved in a scientific project. It's a mix of electronics and body/mind energy with earth's electromagnetic field. Very, very interesting.

Although many here may not agree with me and think radionics is bogus, I suggest them to do a serious reading on the subject because there are sucess reports on it. We don't need to take party on whatever side but absorb information and filter what one thinks it's relevant.

[Rudy]

Reading the examiner's explanation on Rangertell's site and looking at the pictures of the circuitry, I come to the conclusion that it's a radionic device.

User interacts with circuit and becomes probably the main component.
Radionics were famous in the 30's and I researched it a lot in the past by the works of Abrahams, Drown and others when I was involved in a scientific project. It's a mix of electronics and body/mind energy with earth's electromagnetic field. Very, very interesting. Although many here may not agree with me and think radionics is bogus, I suggest them to do a serious reading on the subject because there are sucess reports on it. We don't need to take party on whatever side but absorb information and filter what one thinks it's relevant.

So you think the Rangertell operates on the same principle as Faith Healing? Sure, why not. Filter is hard at work.:)

[Qiaozhi]

Reading the examiner's explanation on Rangertell's site and looking at the pictures of the circuitry, I come to the conclusion that it's a radionic device.
User interacts with circuit and becomes probably the main component.
Radionics were famous in the 30's and I researched it a lot in the past by the works of Abrahams, Drown and others when I was involved in a scientific project. It's a mix of electronics and body/mind energy with earth's electromagnetic field. Very, very interesting.

Although many here may not agree with me and think radionics is bogus, I suggest them to do a serious reading on the subject because there are sucess reports on it. We don't need to take party on whatever side but absorb information and filter what one thinks it's relevant.
Here's the original bogus report I made on the Ranger Tell Examiner (direct from their website) but now with an added synopsis saying that the report refers to a prototype model. Funny how they're backing away from the report now they know I'm a skeptic. :rolleyes:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Q. Is there a scientific report by someone re the Rangertell Examiner? A. Here is one written by an independent not connected with Rangertell that was sent to us.


"The operating principle of LRLs is not immediately obvious if viewed from the perspective of accepted physics. First hand examination of these devices will reveal an apparently simplistic construction that obscures the complex subtlety of their design.

Two types are described here. The first is similar to the Rangertell Examiner, and the other is an advanced electronic device that operates on the same underlying principle as the Mineoro detectors.

For example, the Rangertell Examiner may appear at first sight to contain just a handful of components that seem loosely connected in some arbitrary fashion. This conclusion is far from the truth, as will be explained fully in the following analysis.

One of the most confusing aspects of the Examiner design is the enameled wire that protrudes through the case and terminates just below the calculator housing without any apparent connection. This type of connection can be explained by reference to the work carried out by Zaev, Avramenko and Lisin on displacement current. According to the authors – "The measurement of the polarisation current in matter can clean up the long-standing dispute about the nature of dielectric permeability of metals, and also make possible the transmission of energy along an isolated conductor without a galvanically closed current circuit. Nicholai Tesla demonstrated this on 1st February 1892 in London but the description of the method applied by him for such a transmission line has not been preserved."

A simple circuit (known as Avramenko’s fork) can be used to demonstrate this method of energy transmission.
http://thunting.com/geotech/forums/...ttachmentid=411 (http://thunting.com/geotech/forums/attachment.php4?attachmentid=411)

Note that there is no connection between the load and a common terminal, such as ground. The load is quite simply isolated from ground, but it still receives power.

This type of circuit is not subject to Kirchoff’s current and voltage laws, and the output current measured in the load is not appreciatively affected by inserting a capacitor of 0.1uF in the line. This is the underlying principle of power derivation within the Examiner LRL, and the reason why the device needs no battery supply other than that provided by the calculator. Power to the circuit (a modified form of Avramenko’s fork) is provided directly by the calculator allowing precise tuning by the operator.

Although the original circuit contained two diodes, the version in the Examiner makes use of resonance techniques and longitudinal wave coupling to boost the energy to a level necessary for long range detection. The human component is also an essential part of the design. Just as a tuning fork (or in this case Avramenko’s fork) has natural frequencies for sound, the planet Earth has natural frequencies, called Schumann resonances, and the human brain has natural frequencies for electromagnetic radiation. It is known that that the Earth’s Schumann resonances are "in tune" with the human brain’s alpha and theta states. But since the Schumann resonance is very low, at about 7.5Hz, the frequencies programmed via the calculator must be down-converted and fine-tuned for effective long-range location to take place. In addition, the Schumann resonance can fluctuate by + or – 0.5Hz depending on the properties of the Earth’s electromagnetic cavity.

The natural frequencies of the human brain are:
Beta waves (14 to 30Hz)
Alpha waves (8 to 13Hz)
Theta waves (4 to 7 Hz)
Delta waves (1 to 3Hz)
This explains the inclusion of adjustable elements in the fork / down-converter circuit.

Although the underlying operating principle is complex and difficult to explain, the demonstrable success of these devices has been shown on a number of occasions. Unfortunately LRLs rarely work out-of-the-box, and may need to become acclimatised to their owner over a period of time. Perseverance is the key to successful hunting with an LRL.
It is important that the end of the wire should protrude through the case, and terminate just below the calculator chip. In most calculators this chip is located near to the center of the unit."SYNOPSIS FROM TELL

This refers to the prototype Examiner version 1.0 which was an early attempt (only 10 made). The Examiner T-G 7 01 06 is light years ahead of this. The reason for the price is that we have tested exclusive frequencies to Rangertell and spent years testing it in every conceivable environment. It is still at least a tenth of the average price for this type of unit , that has none of the features we provide. The adept geek may build a look-alike but it will not perform anywhere near the real Examiner. Alignment for instance is more important than first appears and you don't get the POS system to determine depth, distance , shape and weight or the R&D frequencies. You can build a reasonable beeping metal detector too for $50. But it won't perform anywhere near the commercially accepted product because there is no R&D. With more than 500 Rangertell units sold which means about 1000 users and no complaints except from a stereotyped skeptic or two, 100 percent acceptance is the answer to that one. 2. You are not of course connecting your head to the stratosphere. You are allowing magnetic resonance to fulfill the requirements of the detection frequency in relation to the target. If you enter 7 into a tuned Examiner and walk you will determine the grid pattern that is evident round the Earth every 7 feet .
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The full fairy story can be found here -> http://www.rangertell.com/frequently_asked_questions-a.htm

[Rudy]

Here's the original bogus report I made on the Ranger Tell Examiner (direct from their website) but now with an added synopsis saying that the report refers to a prototype model. Funny how they're backing away from the report now they know I'm a skeptic. :rolleyes:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Q. Is there a scientific report by someone re the Rangertell Examiner? A. Here is one written by an independent not connected with Rangertell that was sent to us.


"The operating principle of LRLs is not immediately obvious if viewed from the perspective of accepted physics. First hand examination of these devices will reveal an apparently simplistic construction that obscures the complex subtlety of their design.

Two types are described here. The first is similar to the Rangertell Examiner, and the other is an advanced electronic device that operates on the same underlying principle as the Mineoro detectors.

For example, the Rangertell Examiner may appear at first sight to contain just a handful of components that seem loosely connected in some arbitrary fashion. This conclusion is far from the truth, as will be explained fully in the following analysis.

One of the most confusing aspects of the Examiner design is the enameled wire that protrudes through the case and terminates just below the calculator housing without any apparent connection. This type of connection can be explained by reference to the work carried out by Zaev, Avramenko and Lisin on displacement current. According to the authors – "The measurement of the polarisation current in matter can clean up the long-standing dispute about the nature of dielectric permeability of metals, and also make possible the transmission of energy along an isolated conductor without a galvanically closed current circuit. Nicholai Tesla demonstrated this on 1st February 1892 in London but the description of the method applied by him for such a transmission line has not been preserved."

A simple circuit (known as Avramenko’s fork) can be used to demonstrate this method of energy transmission.
http://thunting.com/geotech/forums/...ttachmentid=411 (http://thunting.com/geotech/forums/attachment.php4?attachmentid=411)

Note that there is no connection between the load and a common terminal, such as ground. The load is quite simply isolated from ground, but it still receives power.

This type of circuit is not subject to Kirchoff’s current and voltage laws, and the output current measured in the load is not appreciatively affected by inserting a capacitor of 0.1uF in the line. This is the underlying principle of power derivation within the Examiner LRL, and the reason why the device needs no battery supply other than that provided by the calculator. Power to the circuit (a modified form of Avramenko’s fork) is provided directly by the calculator allowing precise tuning by the operator.

Although the original circuit contained two diodes, the version in the Examiner makes use of resonance techniques and longitudinal wave coupling to boost the energy to a level necessary for long range detection. The human component is also an essential part of the design. Just as a tuning fork (or in this case Avramenko’s fork) has natural frequencies for sound, the planet Earth has natural frequencies, called Schumann resonances, and the human brain has natural frequencies for electromagnetic radiation. It is known that that the Earth’s Schumann resonances are "in tune" with the human brain’s alpha and theta states. But since the Schumann resonance is very low, at about 7.5Hz, the frequencies programmed via the calculator must be down-converted and fine-tuned for effective long-range location to take place. In addition, the Schumann resonance can fluctuate by + or – 0.5Hz depending on the properties of the Earth’s electromagnetic cavity.

The natural frequencies of the human brain are:
Beta waves (14 to 30Hz)
Alpha waves (8 to 13Hz)
Theta waves (4 to 7 Hz)
Delta waves (1 to 3Hz)
This explains the inclusion of adjustable elements in the fork / down-converter circuit.

Although the underlying operating principle is complex and difficult to explain, the demonstrable success of these devices has been shown on a number of occasions. Unfortunately LRLs rarely work out-of-the-box, and may need to become acclimatised to their owner over a period of time. Perseverance is the key to successful hunting with an LRL.
It is important that the end of the wire should protrude through the case, and terminate just below the calculator chip. In most calculators this chip is located near to the center of the unit."SYNOPSIS FROM TELL

This refers to the prototype Examiner version 1.0 which was an early attempt (only 10 made). The Examiner T-G 7 01 06 is light years ahead of this. The reason for the price is that we have tested exclusive frequencies to Rangertell and spent years testing it in every conceivable environment. It is still at least a tenth of the average price for this type of unit , that has none of the features we provide. The adept geek may build a look-alike but it will not perform anywhere near the real Examiner. Alignment for instance is more important than first appears and you don't get the POS system to determine depth, distance , shape and weight or the R&D frequencies. You can build a reasonable beeping metal detector too for $50. But it won't perform anywhere near the commercially accepted product because there is no R&D. With more than 500 Rangertell units sold which means about 1000 users and no complaints except from a stereotyped skeptic or two, 100 percent acceptance is the answer to that one. 2. You are not of course connecting your head to the stratosphere. You are allowing magnetic resonance to fulfill the requirements of the detection frequency in relation to the target. If you enter 7 into a tuned Examiner and walk you will determine the grid pattern that is evident round the Earth every 7 feet .
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
The full fairy story can be found here -> http://www.rangertell.com/frequently_asked_questions-a.htm


I also loved :rolleyes: the following passage found in one of the answers in the Rangertell FAQs:

... But in a longer-range metal detector, the electromagnetic coil must actually radiate an electromagnetic wave and then look for the reflection of this electromagnetic wave from a more distant piece of metal. That's because the magnetic field of the coil doesn't extend outward forever--it dies away a few diameters of the coil away from the coil itself. For the metal detector to look for metal farther away, it needs help carrying the magnetic field through space. By combining an electric field with the magnetic field, the long-range metal detector creates an electromagnetic wave--a radio wave--that travels independently through space. Electromagnetic waves reflect from many things, particularly objects that conduct electricity. So the long-range metal detector launches an electromagnetic wave and then looks for the reflection of that wave. "

So, that is the secret! Rather than launching just a magnetic wave, or just an electric wave, the LRL launches an electromagnetic wave.:D

Nevermind the fact that there are no such things as purely magnetic or purely electric waves.;)

[hung]

Qiaozhi : Congratulations on your explanation. I think you wrote very plausible things. I don't see the point of after writing such a text you turn and say it's bogus, etc.
You either has a double personality or as I told earlier, unconsciously we may sometimes state the truth.

Rudy: Nowaydays I no longer trust estabilished science anymore. I was involved in a project 12 years ago which simply destroyed many acepted science 'standards'. I think the way to go now with such affirmations as rangertell's is:
Prove that this is NOT possible.

[Qiaozhi]

Qiaozhi : Congratulations on your explanation. I think you wrote very plausible things. I don't see the point of after writing such a text you turn and say it's bogus, etc.
You either has a double personality or as I told earlier, unconsciously we may sometimes state the truth.

Believe it if you want :rolleyes: but it's still bogus.
This reminds me of a similar case, where a group of people went out late at night and created some interesting crop circles. The next day these circles were "discovered", and lots of people got excited. The "experts" were then called in to validate the find by sensing the energy fields and by dowsing. The crop circles were declared to be genuine. When the "experts" were subsequently confronted by the creators of the crop circles they completely refused to believe the facts, even though they were shown a video of the circles being created by rolling plastic barrels filled with sand. One woman even claimed to have seen a UFO land in the field the previous night. Self-delusion is such an interesting subject. :)

Prove that this is NOT possible.
That's not the way it works. :p The onus is on the claimant.

[hung]

When the "experts" were subsequently confronted by the creators of the crop circles they completely refused to believe the facts, even though they were shown a video of the circles being created by rolling plastic barrels filled with sand. One woman even claimed to have seen a UFO land in the field the previous night. Self-delusion is such an interesting subject. :)


That's not the way it works. :p The onus is on the claimant.
...

[Jim]

Reading the examiner's explanation on Rangertell's site and looking at the pictures of the circuitry, I come to the conclusion that it's a radionic device.

Ummm,er......wowsers !!

[Qiaozhi]

...
This is also a fake.

[Rudy]

Even if the picture was real, all it proves is that little extraterrestial green men are real. Or are you trying to say that the Rangertell is using technology developed by an advanced, space travel capable, civilization? :rolleyes:

I was involved in a project 12 years ago which simply destroyed many acepted science 'standards'.

And what would that project be?

[hung]

Even if the picture was real, all it proves is that little extraterrestial green men are real. Or are you trying to say that the Rangertell is using technology developed by an advanced, space travel capable, civilization? :rolleyes:

Of course not. But I gathered enough info and I'm one of the thousands who believe most of high end techonology was developed fom non-terrestrial origin. Eg. See roswell, etc.
And please, I don't want to start a debate on this here.

And what would that project be?

Sorry cannot talk about it. But it involved magnetohydrodynamics, modified maxwell's equations and the quantum leap.

Food for thought: There's a device which proves dowsing is a fact. Build your own Ripoff's Rotor and check how the psi waves rotate it.

[Qiaozhi]

Of course not. But I gathered enough info and I'm one of the thousands who believe most of high end techonology was developed fom non-terrestrial origin. Eg. See roswell, etc.
And please, I don't want to start a debate on this here.

Sorry cannot talk about it. But it involved magnetohydrodynamics, modified maxwell's equations and the quantum leap.

Food for thought: There's a device which proves dowsing is a fact. Build your own Ripoff's Rotor and check how the psi waves rotate it.
No need to start a debate. :rolleyes:
You've just blown any credibility you may have had (if any). :p

[Rudy]

Of course not. But I gathered enough info and I'm one of the thousands who believe most of high end techonology was developed fom non-terrestrial origin. Eg. See roswell, etc.
And please, I don't want to start a debate on this here.

Sorry cannot talk about it. But it involved magnetohydrodynamics, modified maxwell's equations and the quantum leap.

Food for thought: There's a device which proves dowsing is a fact. Build your own Ripoff's Rotor and check how the psi waves rotate it.

Ahh, the Ripoff Rotor. It was a hoax perpetrated by Martin Gardner in his book "The Colossal Book of Mathematics: Classic Puzzles, Paradoxes, and Problems." Gardner wrote a passage in the "Miscellaneous" chapter of the book, about the "Six Sensational Discoveries" of the year 1974.

One of them was made by Augusto Macaroni of the Catholic University of Milan; it was a missing page from Leonardo da Vinci's notebooks that showed he had invented the flush toilet.

Another was the invention, by Robert Ripoff of Prague, of the Ripoff Rotor, a machine that runs solely on psi (psychic) energy. When Ripoff was supposedly visited by Henrietta Birdbrain, an American expert on Kirlian photography, he showed her how to make the rotor, which she then demonstrated to audiences in America.

Since Gardner had used such outlandish names, he had no idea that anyone would not recognize that the "discoveries" were an elaborate April Fools' Day joke. Yet he received more than a thousand letters from readers who took them seriously!

Now, are you able to discuss the nature of the modifications you made to Maxwell's equation? I would be very interested in knowing about that, or are you really talking about combining Maxwell's work together with the work of Navier & Stokes, which is really at the core of modelling magnetohydrodynamic systems?

Quantum leap huh? As in teleporting photons, or as in unifying quantum mechanics with relativity?

[hung]

Ahh, the Ripoff Rotor. It was a hoax perpetrated by Martin Gardner in his book "The Colossal Book of Mathematics: Classic Puzzles, Paradoxes, and Problems." Gardner wrote a passage in the "Miscellaneous" chapter of the book, about the "Six Sensational Discoveries" of the year 1974.

One of them was made by Augusto Macaroni of the Catholic University of Milan; it was a missing page from Leonardo da Vinci's notebooks that showed he had invented the flush toilet.

Another was the invention, by Robert Ripoff of Prague, of the Ripoff Rotor, a machine that runs solely on psi (psychic) energy. When Ripoff was supposedly visited by Henrietta Birdbrain, an American expert on Kirlian photography, he showed her how to make the rotor, which she then demonstrated to audiences in America.

Since Gardner had used such outlandish names, he had no idea that anyone would not recognize that the "discoveries" were an elaborate April Fools' Day joke. Yet he received more than a thousand letters from readers who took them seriously!

Now, are you able to discuss the nature of the modifications you made to Maxwell's equation? I would be very interested in knowing about that, or are you really talking about combining Maxwell's work together with the work of Navier & Stokes, which is really at the core of modelling magnetohydrodynamic systems?

Quantum leap huh? As in teleporting photons, or as in unifying quantum mechanics with relativity?

As I thought.
You had no clue about it and took everything above from a link in the internet.
Is this how you research things?
Then I must be one hell of a researcher because, for almost 20 years I look for corroborating scientific claims by trying to recreate the experiments.

I built the Ripoff Rotor. It works for me no problems as it will work for ANYBODY.
Do yourself a favor building one and only then make a coment on it.
As you seem to only relate to the internet to discover things you don't know, you will probably be unable to find instructions in english on how to build it.
So if you want I can send it to you. It's a really simple device and easy to build but must be meticulously assembled in order to have a perfect balance.

Happy new year.

[michael]

It seems you are discussing about one kind of rotor that moves(rotates) by a little mind concentration.(If I'm right, must tell you this is as a simple demonstrated tool, I've seen it and was really working) and there was no hocus-pocus. one big telepathy and hypnotism proficient here first test people mind power by it and then proceed to next steps. of course it had no electrical part, was only composed of some mechanical pieces. it was exactly showing man mind power.
A big question mark is for me; why some axioms being denied in this forum whereas accepted in many places and with many people?!!!
like radio waves spreading in soil that some time ago was denying here seriously.:confused: :confused:

[Qiaozhi]

...you will probably be unable to find instructions in english on how to build it.
So if you want I can send it to you. It's a really simple device and easy to build but must be meticulously assembled in order to have a perfect balance.

Happy new year.
In the spirit of "looking on the internet", here's a link on how to build the Ripoff Motor, which incidently didn't actually rip anyone off as it was made of one sheet of paper. :D
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=pt&u=http://www.fenomeno.matrix.com.br/fenomeno_fenomenos_1_rotor.htm&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=2&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dripoff%2Brotor%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D

Gardiner's book is also available from Amazon, if anyone is interested, but please be aware that this device was only created as a bit of fun and was never intended to be taken seriously. :rolleyes:

[Qiaozhi]

In the spirit of "looking on the internet", here's a link on how to build the Ripoff Motor, which incidently didn't actually rip anyone off as it was made of one sheet of paper. :D
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=pt&u=http://www.fenomeno.matrix.com.br/fenomeno_fenomenos_1_rotor.htm&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=2&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dripoff%2Brotor%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D

Gardiner's book is also available from Amazon, if anyone is interested, but please be aware that this device was only created as a bit of fun and was never intended to be taken seriously. :rolleyes:
OK - forget the link shown above. Here's a much better description in English -> http://bizarrelabs.com/psychicm.htm
This device is also called a "psychic motor", and it moves by the warmth of your hand. No hocus-pocus here then. ;)

[hung]

Still there eh?

and it moves by the warmth of your hand. No hocus-pocus here then. ;)

Yeah, right...
So it's the heat of your left hand which is making it turn clockwise and the heat of your right hand moves it anticlockwise... Wow so the secret is in the heat! And it changes direction! No wonder this poor soul (Gardner) calls him a debunker.:rolleyes:

It's amazing when people like 'debunkers' wants to remain blind to avoid 'the' other explanation.

Taking a ride on Dell's motto here:

'The door to knowledge is never open to a closed mind'.
Yeah!:D

PS. Make sure when you build one toy like that, to keep your hand in the freeze for sometime, so when it moves the cold will be the culprit. In fact it's incredible how toys like that many times tell the truth.

[Dell Winders]

That's not the way it works. :p The onus is on the claimant.

:eek: Qiaozhi. I see you have lost touch with reality.

"What has been done, can be done" Dell

[Rudy]

As I thought.
You had no clue about it and took everything above from a link in the internet.
Is this how you research things?
Then I must be one hell of a researcher because, for almost 20 years I look for corroborating scientific claims by trying to recreate the experiments.
<SNIP>
Happy new year.

Nothing wrong with using the internet for research. I started using it back when I worked at Bell Laboratories and it was then called the ARPANET. Only a few Universities and research centers had access to it back then.

You just have to excercise some judgment as to what material you accept, based on the source :) and I think the American Scientist web site is a pretty reliable source of information, and the person that reviewed the book I referred to, Dennis Flanagan, was an editor of Scientific American.

I noticed you demured about the modifications to Maxwell's equations.

Have a Happy New Year.

[Qiaozhi]

You just have to excercise some judgment as to what material you accept, based on the source :) and I think the American Scientist web site is a pretty reliable source of information, and the person that reviewed the book I referred to, Dennis Flanagan, was an editor of Scientific American.
Well said. :)

I noticed you demured about the modifications to Maxwell's equations.
Why are we not surprised? :rolleyes:

Qiaozhi. I see you have lost touch with reality.

"What has been done, can be done" Dell
Same old rethoric...
Psychic motors, little green men, Roswell, dowsing - maybe this is the new reality??? Next you'll be telling me that black is white. :eek: Time to stop dreaming and see the real world.
Happy New Year (Xin nian kuai le!) or perhaps that's a conspiracy as well. :p

Yeah, right...
So it's the heat of your left hand which is making it turn clockwise and the heat of your right hand moves it anticlockwise... Wow so the secret is in the heat! And it changes direction! No wonder this poor soul (Gardner) calls him a debunker.:rolleyes:

It's amazing when people like 'debunkers' wants to remain blind to avoid 'the' other explanation.

Taking a ride on Dell's motto here:

'The door to knowledge is never open to a closed mind'.
Yeah!:D

PS. Make sure when you build one toy like that, to keep your hand in the freeze for sometime, so when it moves the cold will be the culprit. In fact it's incredible how toys like that many times tell the truth.
You are such a lost soul. :confused:
The Ripoff Motor (just look closely at the name) - also known as a psychic motor - was a "joke" placed in the appendix of a book written by a self-confessed skeptic, who was also a member of CSICOP; and you believed it!!
That's the real joke! :D :D :D :D :D

[hung]

Hi Dell, nice to see you joining here... Your expertise in dowsing is always appreciated.

Oh, how I love debates...

The Ripoff Rotor is another way of demonstrating how magnetic fields in our bodies work and emanate. Actually is pretty simpler holding a pendulum in either hand and the same results as in the rotor will appear.

Never expect to find serious research in the internet. It's either halfway down to truth or it's covered up. Do you really think you will find the plans to a time machine, cold fusion, teletransport, etc. in the internet for instance?:p :p But I don't deny it's helpful to some extent.

Serious research is done completely away from public. At least those which 'might' have military interests. We all know what happens to anyone when and if he decides to release such info in the internet...
In the long run misinformation is always a good tactic.

Rudy I said I will not talk about that project. In my research team, we had nuclear physicists, mathematicians, electronic engineers, etc. All I can say is that the quantum leap is not actually a 'leap...'. Please don't try to go over this topic again as I won't make any coment on this anymore. Hope you don't insist.

Well going back to the original subject. I don't really agree with Ripoff who states those are all PSI waves. Not really. I think the pendulum for instance shows that an electromagnetic pattern AKIN from the user's will is also present.
Let's see how what I state above develops here as I will go over a really interesting case next.

[Rudy]

<SNIP>
Oh, how I love debates...


Me too. :)


The Ripoff Rotor is another way of demonstrating how magnetic fields in our bodies work and emanate.

Have yet to see a piece of paper that can be picked up by a magnet. Static electricity, yes. Magnet, No.


Never expect to find serious research in the internet.


Leading edge and or classified research, no. But plenty of prior art material is available on the internet, or in academia.


Do you really think you will find the plans to a time machine, cold fusion, teletransport, etc. in the internet for instance?

Nice attempt at changing the topic of discussion, but we weren't discussing any of those. We where discussing the Ripoff motor, or is it ripped off? :)


Rudy I said I will not talk about that project. In my research team, we had nuclear physicists, mathematicians, electronic engineers, etc. All I can say is that the quantum leap is not actually a 'leap...'. Please don't try to go over this topic again as I won't make any coment on this anymore. Hope you don't insist.


Ok, I won't. But I will say that a quantum leap is an infinitesimally small leap at that. :D


Let's see how what I state above develops here as I will go over a really interesting case next.

Waiting with baited breadth at the next adventure in pseudo science. :)

[Rudy]

<SNIP>
If I'm right, must tell you this is as a simple demonstrated tool, I've seen it and was really working and there was no hocus-pocus.


Michael, I am sure you saw the motor spinning as you say. But that doesn't mean it was due to misterious psi waves.

Assume for the moment that it was indeed psi waves and not body heat that was causing the motion. One would have to infer that these psi waves are energetic enough to overcome the frictional losses in the motor and the inertia of the paper's mass.

Then, one would expect that these waves would still propagate between the hands and the paper motor across a slightly larger distance, say six inches. So, after the motor is turning (ie. the frictional losses and inertia have been overcome), the hands are moved away to a six inch distance and the motor should continue to turn. Does it? I think not.


A big question mark is for me; why some axioms being denied in this forum whereas accepted in many places and with many people?!!!
like radio waves spreading in soil that some time ago was denying here seriously.:confused: :confused:

Radio waves of extremely low frequency do indeed propagate through the earth. The government used such ELF radio waves to communicate simple instructions to the submerged nuclear submarine fleet for years.

But these are very very low frequency waves, in the 3Hz to ~25Hz range. The antenas needed to transmit and receive these frequencies are of mind boggling size. The transmitter antenas where located by the US government in the central US and they were miles in length. The boomers trailed a very thin antena wire behind them when on patrol to receive the signals.

Quite simply, the LRL antena is just not at all suitable to send or receive such long wavelength signals, nor is there a mechanism known that would cause metals, such as gold, to radiate such signals in a distinguishable manner.

[Qiaozhi]

Oh, how I love debates...
That won't scare us away. :)

I think the pendulum for instance shows that an electromagnetic pattern AKIN from the user's will is also present.
You think wrongly. The pendulum example is also a well known demonstration of the ideomotor effect, like dowsing and the ouija board.

[hung]

Have yet to see a piece of paper that can be picked up by a magnet. Static electricity, yes. Magnet, No.

Is static electricity able to rotate the rotor clockwise and anticlockwise?
And why is it important to position the hand facing north? Would this relate with earth's magnetic pole?
Hummm?

But I will say that a quantum leap is an infinitesimally small leap at that. :D

My dear friend, as I stated earlier, we discovered things which corroborate much of accepted science is WRONG! And they even bother to correct themselves...Humm..Why would that be?
Unless you develop experiments to try to prove or not some allegations in science, you can never state or believe what is estabilished as fact, because sometimes it's not. Eg. Everyday we have the 'experts' changing the age of things in history according to their findings.
In physics, etc, it happens the same thing, but they do not even bother to do it. Humm... Why would that be...?:rolleyes:
Today, I can assure you.. Many of us know nothing. We think we do.
Go on, build your rotor and don't keep looking at a drawing, telling yourself the reasons it should not work.
Does this sound familiar here?



Waiting with baited breadth at the next adventure in pseudo science. :)
Pseudo science eh?
Yes.. I see, everything that can't be explained with our current resources is called that. Specially when this knowledge is not acessible.
Bad start pal, I had hopes you were smarter than that. I was wrong.

[michael]

Assume for the moment that it was indeed psi waves and not body heat that was causing the motion. One would have to infer that these psi waves are energetic enough to overcome the frictional losses in the motor and the inertia of the paper's mass.
Then, one would expect that these waves would still propagate between the hands and the paper motor across a slightly larger distance, say six inches. So, after the motor is turning (ie. the frictional losses and inertia have been overcome), the hands are moved away to a six inch distance and the motor should continue to turn. Does it? I think not..Rudy, what I alluded was not for body heat. body heat is as a simple affair not need to be determined by this kind of device. one thermometer suffices.
it worked with mind concentration. every time tried to concentrate mind on device, it moved didn't need to get hand near the device.
or another example one of my compatriots who could bend rough things such as steel spoon by his mind power he just held his hand over the object and concentrated his mind, the object was being bended. He did this frequently in front of National TV camera and said to the interviewer that he was supposed to cooperate with an [American]institute which study on man specific or unknown energies. I remember he pointed to one kind of magnetic energy, but didn't point exactly to the institute name. of course every time
he was under a heavy pressure and his eyes became tearful.[it was genuine not hocus-pocus] Now, what can call this kind of energy?
it's obvious has no relation to body temperature. Admittedly he is an exceptional case, but this represents all people; me, you and others have at least a shadow of this energy.Radio waves of extremely low frequency do indeed propagate through the earth. The government used such ELF radio waves to communicate simple instructions to the submerged nuclear submarine fleet for years.
But these are very very low frequency waves, in the 3Hz to ~25Hz range. The antenas needed to transmit and receive these frequencies are of mind boggling size. The transmitter antenas where located by the US government in the central US and they were miles in length. The boomers trailed a very thin antena wire behind them when on patrol to receive the signals.
Quite simply, the LRL antena is just not at all suitable to send or receive such long wavelength signals, nor is there a mechanism known that would cause metals, such as gold, to radiate such signals in a distinguishable manner.About this as I remember in previous discussions in different threads some members believed high frequencies (at MHZ or GHZ scales can spread or penetrate appropriately in soil and ground) now I see you are in versus.
you believe in VLFs in Hz scale!!! 2 days before I got acquainted with a genius in physic.
We talked much about radio frequencies,...I asked him" do you admit RFs can travel on & inside ground?" his A:" Yes, high frequencies do this much better, the lower the more difficult" As I had made test myself by my RF generator; either in HZ or KHZ, asked his opinion about it. he told : "it depends on power & amplification, in what power?" my A: " e.g. 100 Watt" his A:" yes of course" My Q:" how far? some inches or 1 meter?"[here I knew answer based on my own experience] his A:" no, much more, based on ground condition up to 100 or hundreds meters" I added :" some people who claim are very experienced and knowledgeable in RF sciences, believe that these kind of waves can go only up to some inches,.." He was surprised and told these are axiom.
His comments was exact conjoint to my EE friend comments.
Then he talked much about Satellite, and a kind of nuisance in RF categories (GAMER),... were very interesting and out of here patience.
Now I have reached one point : most of our believes have been wrong. specially after make a connection with one of my compatriots who owns OKM exp 4000 &5000 and knows this forum, but only reads themes.
by 2 weeks ago I believed OKM devices are bogus, now I'm in versus. this guy have found many objects by exps. and mailed me that he has even found 2 object by Lectra search the device that I and even he dislike it.
with exp 5000 there is 4 VLF generators that produce 40 KHZ waves and injected to ground, then you search there by detector, in this attitude it can find metals much more better. why? you see injected Fr. is not in Hz range. it remembered me Okantex notification; he offered me to compose Zahori with RF generator instead of other type of rods. when weather allow,we will do it for every kind of detector; PI MD, Rover C and even FG80.

[hung]

But these are very very low frequency waves, in the 3Hz to ~25Hz range. The antenas needed to transmit and receive these frequencies are of mind boggling size. The transmitter antenas where located by the US government in the central US and they were miles in length.

Are you really sure about this Mr. Rudy?
That's why I say there's much more than meets the eye.
A reduction in antenna's size has been done before in a special case and it proved infinite advantage over the original design.
In the early 80's, a scottish professor named Maurice Hately and Fathl Kabbary were working a completely different antenna design. The great concept of this design was based on the premise that a magnetic field could be produced without a current flow in a wire (hey there, does it sound familiar?) They used the reveresed negative solution of Maxwell's fourth equation and proved that a magnetic field really exists between 2 capacitor plates when a RF voltage is applied.
Years and years later, I believe in the 90's, I think it was Kabbary who made a revolutionary design change in the antenna, employing a top which had funnel shape. This resulted in a design with only 21 feet tall in relation to the vertical design was replaced, 211 feet(!) in height. And later, tests demonstrated it had 800% advantage (about 9db) over the vertical one quarter wavelength design. This antenna was set in Egypt.
So the idea of requiring long antennas for whatever purpose, many times does not hold true.
If you only knew what can be done with 3 helmholtz coils/antennas... Never mind..

[hung]

I remember he pointed to one kind of magnetic energy, but didn't point exactly to the institute name. of course every time
he was under a heavy pressure and his eyes became tearful.[it was genuine not hocus-pocus] Now, what can call this kind of energy?

Aaahhhh.... Now we are getting somewhere.
Good point Michael..

We talked much about radio frequencies,...I asked him" do you admit RFs can travel on & inside ground?" his A:" Yes, high frequencies do this much better, the lower the more difficult" As I had made test myself by my RF generator; either in HZ or KHZ, asked his opinion about it. he told : "it depends on power & amplification,

Yes. He's 100% right. AMPLITUDE.

this guy have found many objects by exps. and mailed me that he has even found 2 object by Lectra search the device that I and even he dislike it.


He,he,he. Why I'm not surprised?
Skeptics will fight back with anger on this one.

[hung]

You think wrongly. The pendulum example is also a well known demonstration of the ideomotor effect, like dowsing and the ouija board.

Sorry. We cannot even start to debate.
It's like we start to talk about earth's atmosphere and you don't admit air exists.

[hung]

Well, new year but old discussion...

I'd like to present a case which might no look related to LRLs at first but I do believe it's much more than we could dare to think. Specially the concepts and fields involved in comparison to dowsing abilities, ESP, and yes, radionics to some degree.
It's a good case for all of us 'researchers' here to debate and share ideas.

Sometime ago I was watching a cable TV show in the 'Infinito' network. Infinto is USA's 'Discovery Channel' type like' network. Only it's Argentinian I believe. In fact this channel was took off our program grid in Brazil unfortunately, although it remains for Latin America.

Well, anyways, the show was about psychic powers and one special case did draw my attention.
There's this young guy who could 'see' not only with his eyes...
The tester told him he would be given 4 cards face down. The cards exibited pictures of complete different subjects such as bird, formula one automobile, a sailing ship, etc.. All in colors.
The tester then placed the cards faced down in a table and asked this guy if he could tell which picture was which.
I remember that the tester did not know which card was which also as they were mixed previously, so telepathy, mind reading and those kind of things were eliminated.
I've seen those kind of tests before, but no one close to this guy's ability. He positioned one of his hands above the card and promptly 'saw' them describing the figures, even the colors sucessfully.
Assuming he's not a magician, ET or hoaxer of any kind.
This special ability is inherent to us all but at possbile different degrees as he proves his is quite powerful.

Questions:

1 - Is the eye really the only factor responsible for viewing?

2 - Is it possible that the eye is only an 'interface' for a much broader way
of vision sensing?

3 - In the case of the above being positive, could it be that all of our senses
and beyond common sense are a result of a perception field on some kind
which lies around us?

4 - Are those fileds of known origin? If so, how could they interact?

Nice thinking to all.

[michael]

Hung, I believe it thoroughly, as I have seen much cases of this and more strange. about the guy I mentioned above, I didn't tell all, as thought maybe people here think I'm making fiction.
He could move small objects by mind concentration with executed energy through his hand on it. he was even little able to read audiences mind.
Here I before met face to face some people who had incredible abilities.
The weirdest was an old physician with this god-given talent. He was really incredible.
it was first time we met each other and didn't know anything about each other, just I had heard about his abilities, [please don't poke fun at me I'm really honest] he told my name, my father & mother name, he told boldest stories of my past life, present time and a little foretold about my future, he even got near my ear and told:" you are doing a dangerous work, you search for treasures,...." My brain was locked and I was shocked.
I'm sure no one had told these to him, but from where he knew these, I just wanted to see him so that to examine him and quench the thirst of my curiosity, also he told me most of things that were highly private and personal, but he couldn't do anything on objects by his mind.
What's the man mind? a complicated world that flesh, blood and bone are not all the matters.
Hung, in your answer, No, eyes are not the only factor or means to see, there are some other things in this world ghost is the main factor that differentiate man from other existences. all other things; flesh, brain gray cells,… are alibi.
Oh, one thing I'm sure is noticeable: today I heard of our national radio news that France is going to utilize an unique internet site with so many information about UFOs: formal and informal reports, every genuine taken pictures by people or organizations from UFOs thru 30 past years.
What's your opinion? when you got the address, please inform me.

[hung]

it was first time we met each other and didn't know anything about each other, just I had heard about his abilities, [please don't poke fun at me I'm really honest] he told my name, my father & mother name, he told boldest stories of my past life, present time and a little foretold about my future, he even got near my ear and told:" you are doing a dangerous work, you search for treasures,...." My brain was locked and I was shocked.
I'm sure no one had told these to him, but from where he knew these, I just wanted to see him so that to examine him and quench the thirst of my curiosity, also he told me most of things that were highly private and personal, but he couldn't do anything on objects by his mind.
What's the man mind? a complicated world that flesh, blood and bone are not all the matters.


My friend I believe you 100% because I know of such phenomena. And you show you are an exceptional kind of person whose honesty is unquestionable. You have the guts to come to this forum and tell your experiences. That's really noble from you!
Back to the subject, I also met and know of several human beings who do what your friend does. This is called mediumship. A kind of energy inherent to some which allows for this.
I was going to refer to this really later but you seemed to be really smart and figured it all real fast.
Ok, now we got to this point (and there's no going back anymore), I want to know from you and from the others: In your opinion how these energy fields manifest? Electromagnetic printings relating to pre determined frequencies? On what powersource? Any induction involved? What kind?
Does standard physics explain that? I bet so , but not your ordinary science project instructions manual...
Can we achieve it with current electronics? Ahh.. Why not?

I know a guy who touching an object can determine all the story related to it , even the date!
This is called 'psycometrics' and is a rare kind of mediumship. But there are some in the world.
Oh yes... The TV show 'Dead Zone'... Or you thought it was all fiction?
Hey check some Unified Field Theory papers.. It's all there!

Now go back to Radionics definition and see how interaction is programed...
Wow... How much food for thought!

[Qiaozhi]

Go on, build your rotor and don't keep looking at a drawing, telling yourself the reasons it should not work.
Does this sound familiar here?
No-one here disputes that the Ripoff (Psychic) motor actually works. It just doesn't rotate by psi waves (mind control). As I said before, it was a "joke" placed in the appendix of a book written by a self-confessed skeptic, who was also a member of CSICOP; and you believed it!!
That's the real joke! :D :D :D :D :D

Well, anyways, the show was about psychic powers and one special case did draw my attention.
There's this young guy who could 'see' not only with his eyes...
The tester told him he would be given 4 cards face down. The cards exibited pictures of complete different subjects such as bird, formula one automobile, a sailing ship, etc.. All in colors.
The tester then placed the cards faced down in a table and asked this guy if he could tell which picture was which.
I remember that the tester did not know which card was which also as they were mixed previously, so telepathy, mind reading and those kind of things were eliminated.
I've seen those kind of tests before, but no one close to this guy's ability. He positioned one of his hands above the card and promptly 'saw' them describing the figures, even the colors sucessfully.
Assuming he's not a magician, ET or hoaxer of any kind.
This special ability is inherent to us all but at possbile different degrees as he proves his is quite powerful.
Google for "Derren Brown" if you want to know someone who can do all this and more. He freely admits that he has no psychic powers whatsoever, and everything is done by a combination of psychology, magic, misdirection, illusion and showmanship. Even when he tells people the truth they don't believe him! :eek:

he told my name, my father & mother name, he told boldest stories of my past life, present time and a little foretold about my future, he even got near my ear and told:" you are doing a dangerous work, you search for treasures,...." My brain was locked and I was shocked.
I admit that this ability can truly shock you into thinking someone has some psychic ability. This is known as a "cold reading", and was very popular in Victorian times. There is nothing psychic about it. It's a very clever trick that almost anyone can learn. There are several free e-books on the internet, if you want to know how it's done. Read them, and don't get fooled again. :rolleyes:

[hung]

Google for "Derren Brown" if you want to know someone who can do all this and more. He freely admits that he has no psychic powers whatsoever, and everything is done by a combination of psychology, magic, misdirection, illusion and showmanship. Even when he tells people the truth they don't believe him! :eek:

Are you admiting to believe in magic?
I hope not.
I don't know him and maybe he is a trick afterall. But I know what I'm talking about and I bet Michael is also. I know the people with this supposed 'powers' here and they are no trick at all. In fact they know their gift and understand it.
I admit I don't like the term 'psychic' as this is not what means exactly in portuguese which has a much more related term.
This is a special condition found in some people which involves other things. I am aware you cannot even speculate about it because it's totally akin from you nature. Sorry, but this all goes back to what I already have stated. It's natural to the human nature to dismiss as magic, fraud, hypnosis, etc. everything they cannot understand and explain.
A suggestion: Although US virtually mistreated all cases as fraud, etc. you could try to research the Florence Cook's case. However I am afraid all of this are corrupted in conclusions as well.
It's exactly as the 'flat earth' belief. None dared to dismiss this idea for a long time. They accepted it but none had ever sailed that far to know if it was true or not. Get it?
Until one day when finally the rounded earth idea was accepted. How much time did this take to happen? How much effort was needed to implement it?
That's why I began to study this a long, long time ago. To understand. When we understand we accept.


I admit that this ability can truly shock you into thinking someone has some psychic ability. This is known as a "cold reading", and was very popular in Victorian times. There is nothing psychic about it. It's a very clever trick that almost anyone can learn. There are several free e-books on the internet, if you want to know how it's done. Read them, and don't get fooled again. :rolleyes:

Sorry again. I'm afraid you are completely wrong and misled here. This is normal as you have no basis to draw even a preliminary conclusion.
I cannot ask you to believe as this takes time and study. You would have to unblock every wrong and false concepts you believe are right from all those years. Because they are not. I've been through this in the past... I know. It's hard. But then comes the reward when finally you discover the truth.
So, if you could only admit it for a second, just for the record, you could try to answer the questions I posted above. This would be a good start and you would be contributing with your own ideas as well.

[Qiaozhi]

Are you admiting to believe in magic?
I think you are misunderstanding my words. When I refer to "magic" I mean "conjuring", not the stuff you see in the Harry Potter films. That's just make-believe. You have clearly not researched this area very well, otherwise you would understand the psychology that is being used here.

It's natural to the human nature to dismiss as magic, fraud, hypnosis, etc. everything they cannot understand and explain.
You're getting confused with all this mumbo jumbo. It is human nature to attribute things that cannot be understand to psychic phenonemon, little green men, etc., when they cannot easily be explained - not the other way round. Remember Occam's Razor, and use it often.

Sorry again. I'm afraid you are completely wrong and misled here.
If you say so... :rolleyes:
You seem to have an amazing capacity to change the meaning of your experiences against your own map of reality. This type of distortion does not necessarily represent the truth. It is just your own perception of it.
Anyway, shouldn't you be playing Indiana Jones, and searching for your recently "discovered" treasure cave? ;)

[Dell Winders]

I don't know whether this truth will will provide any enlightnment as to the abilities of the human bio-computer, but they are my personal experiences which have been confirmed by independent witnesses as each of the markers were found at the Dowsed locations.

And there are more. Perhaps the Skeptic mind can provide a logical explanation for my detecting these on a Topo map, or aerial photo from hundreds, or thousands of miles away from a place I had never been to?? Even though I am unable to provide a suitable scientific explanation, I cannot deny the fact.

DOWSING EXAMPLES LINK: http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,24475.0.html

"WHAT HAS BEEN DONE, CAN BE DONE" Dell

[Qiaozhi]

DOWSING EXAMPLES LINK: http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,24475.0.html
OK - I've clicked on the link, read the words more than once, but I still see no evidence that treasure was recovered at this site, with or without dowsing being involved. :confused:

[Dell Winders]

It was not my intention to display Treasure for you. Only a method that I use and soliciting your Scientific explanation of how I am able to do this?

I'm sorry! I am unable to help you with your reading skills, or comprehension. Dell

[Qiaozhi]

It was not my intention to display Treasure for you.
So there was no treasure??

Only a method that I use and soliciting your Scientific explanation of how I am able to do this?
To do what?
Hanging a pendulum over a map has already been scientifically explained earlier in this thread. It's an excellent demonstration of the ideomotor effect.

[hung]

So there was no treasure??


To do what?
Hanging a pendulum over a map has already been scientifically explained earlier in this thread. It's an excellent demonstration of the ideomotor effect.

Qiaozhi it's not ideomotor effect. How long will you fool yourself by thinking this?
An old saying states that the right moment will arrive to everyone till they see the light and wake up. It's pretty sure your moment still has not come.

[Rudy]

Rudy, what I alluded was not for body heat. body heat is as a simple affair not need to be determined by this kind of device. one thermometer suffices.
it worked with mind concentration. every time tried to concentrate mind on device, it moved didn't need to get hand near the device.
or another example one of my compatriots who could bend rough things such as steel spoon by his mind power he just held his hand over the object and concentrated his mind, the object was being bended. He did this frequently in front of National TV camera and said to the interviewer that he was supposed to cooperate with an [American]institute which study on man specific or unknown energies. I remember he pointed to one kind of magnetic energy, but didn't point exactly to the institute name. of course every time
he was under a heavy pressure and his eyes became tearful.[it was genuine not hocus-pocus] Now, what can call this kind of energy?
it's obvious has no relation to body temperature. Admittedly he is an exceptional case, but this represents all people; me, you and others have at least a shadow of this energy.

I have never seen what you refer to, so I withold judgment.


About this as I remember in previous discussions in different threads some members believed high frequencies (at MHZ or GHZ scales can spread or penetrate appropriately in soil and ground) now I see you are in versus.
you believe in VLFs in Hz scale!!! 2 days before I got acquainted with a genius in physic.
We talked much about radio frequencies,...I asked him" do you admit RFs can travel on & inside ground?" his A:" Yes, high frequencies do this much better, the lower the more difficult" As I had made test myself by my RF generator; either in HZ or KHZ, asked his opinion about it. he told : "it depends on power & amplification, in what power?" my A: " e.g. 100 Watt" his A:" yes of course" My Q:" how far? some inches or 1 meter?"[here I knew answer based on my own experience] his A:" no, much more, based on ground condition up to 100 or hundreds meters" I added :" some people who claim are very experienced and knowledgeable in RF sciences, believe that these kind of waves can go only up to some inches,.." He was surprised and told these are axiom.
His comments was exact conjoint to my EE friend comments.

I was making reference to long distance transmission of RF signals through the earth core. High frequency RF signals can also penetrate the earth, but their penetration is limited in depth. For example, ground penetrating radar send very high frequency RF pulses, but penetration is limited.

The penetration of RF signals is limited by an effect analogous to skin effect, where the penetration depth is inversely proportional to the square root of the frequency and the magnetic permeability of the earth.

Of course, the ELF RF although it can penetrate more deeply for the same energy expenditure, lacks the ability to "image" small objects due to their extremely long wavelengths.


Then he talked much about Satellite, and a kind of nuisance in RF categories (GAMER),... were very interesting and out of here patience.
Now I have reached one point : most of our believes have been wrong. specially after make a connection with one of my compatriots who owns OKM exp 4000 &5000 and knows this forum, but only reads themes.
by 2 weeks ago I believed OKM devices are bogus, now I'm in versus. this guy have found many objects by exps. and mailed me that he has even found 2 object by Lectra search the device that I and even he dislike it.
with exp 5000 there is 4 VLF generators that produce 40 KHZ waves and injected to ground, then you search there by detector, in this attitude it can find metals much more better. why? you see injected Fr. is not in Hz range. it remembered me Okantex notification; he offered me to compose Zahori with RF generator instead of other type of rods. when weather allow,we will do it for every kind of detector; PI MD, Rover C and even FG80.

Sorry, I didn't understand the above.

Is static electricity able to rotate the rotor clockwise and anticlockwise?
And why is it important to position the hand facing north? Would this relate with earth's magnetic pole?
Hummm?

Hung, I was taking issue with your assertion that magnetism was causing the rotor to turn. You stated, and I quote: "The Ripoff Rotor is another way of demonstrating how magnetic fields in our bodies work and emanate."
I replied that static electricity has an effect on paper (attractive in this case), but that magnetism does not. I never said static electricity rotates the rotor and you haven't proved or shown how magnetism can.


My dear friend, as I stated earlier, we discovered things which corroborate much of accepted science is WRONG! And they even bother to correct themselves...Humm..Why would that be?

How about some concrete examples rather than just talking in ambiguities?


Unless you develop experiments to try to prove or not some allegations in science, you can never state or believe what is estabilished as fact, because sometimes it's not.

That is precisely what science is all about. A formal theory is built, from it, predictions are made, and a cadre of trained experimentalists devise carefully controlled experiments to test out the predictions made by the theory. If the results do not quite agree with the theory, the reasons are investigated and the theory is revised.

One beautiful example that comes to mind was the prediction in Eisntein's relativity theory that a gravitational field bends time and space. This was experimentally proven years later.


Eg. Everyday we have the 'experts' changing the age of things in history according to their findings.
In physics, etc, it happens the same thing, but they do not even bother to do it. Humm... Why would that be...?:rolleyes:

You didn't give a specific example so I can't comment, but the body of scientific knowledge is not static. It is always changing as new experimental evidence is brought to bear, independently reproduced by other scientists, and found to contradict what existing theories predict. In some cases, the path is different, theory first, experimental evidence later (e.g. Special Theory of Relativity).

Oftentimes there are multiple theories and they are used to compute or make predictions about different things. For example, Newtonian physics can do quite nicely for many things here on earth, whereas Relativity is more appropriate at the cosmological level and quantum mechanics is more useful at the subatomic level.


Does this sound familiar here?
Pseudo science eh?
Yes.. I see, everything that can't be explained with our current resources is called that. Specially when this knowledge is not acessible.
Bad start pal, I had hopes you were smarter than that. I was wrong.

Without a solid theoretical foundation behing it, or a well documented set of experiments that can be reproduced by independent scientific teams, it is just what I called it. Pseudo science. Cold fusion comes to mind.

You haven't produced one shred of data or experimental evidence that has been corroborated by others under controlled conditions, to qualify it as science. And I am speaking in the context of the original thread here. That is, wether LRLs really detect at long range, wether the results can be reproduced by other independent experimenters,.... In short, what makes science a science. Nothing to do with other stuff (Ripoff motors, Helmholtz coils,...)

[Qiaozhi]

Qiaozhi it's not ideomotor effect. How long will you fool yourself by thinking this?
An old saying states that the right moment will arrive to everyone till they see the light and wake up. It's pretty sure your moment still has not come.
Again - you are denying reality. These things have been put to the test, and a rational explanation has been found. You are between a rock and a hard place.
If you don't agree that's it's ideomotor effect, then what do you believe?

[hung]

How about some concrete examples rather than just talking in ambiguities?
Unfortunately the term 'ambiguity' is much more apropriate to most science today than it ever was.



That is precisely what science is all about. A formal theory is built, from it, predictions are made, and a cadre of trained experimentalists devise carefully controlled experiments to test out the predictions made by the theory. If the results do not quite agree with the theory, the reasons are investigated and the theory is revised.

No, no. It's the opposite ! No theory will be ever made without first empiric experimentation. By performing what you state above, you show EXACTLY how handicaped scientific aproach is today. Theory will only be formulated when you think you know what just happened in your experiment! Then you look for a mathematical of physical understanding. How absurd is the idea of having a theory be first launched than an experiment! You would be limiting the experimentation solely!
In our case. We did the experiment, then we had to revise physics to acomodate it. But first we had an initial mathematical model which could be physically reproduced. Then by using the math applied in what was observed, new aspects were displayed.



You didn't give a specific example so I can't comment, but the body of scientific knowledge is not static. It is always changing as new experimental evidence is brought to bear, independently reproduced by other scientists, and found to contradict what existing theories predict. In some cases, the path is different, theory first, experimental evidence later (e.g. Special Theory of Relativity).

Only if it does not prove being a military or power advantage. What do you think have happened to most of Tesla's papers?
We are in our science infancy. In fact 18th and 19th century scientists are way ahead of today's in many aspects. Part because there's no more scientific research as used to be in that era. Part because of financial , more profitable reasons.
One example that comes to mind of that era type researchers today are canadian John Hutchison, Reginald Jaynes and Naudin, to name a few. Huthcison's work using modified Tesla coils and Van der Graaf generators created what it's known today as the Hutchison Effect. This was first acomplished in 1979 by mere empyrical experimentation. Still how it can be reproduced is unknown today. Military seeked him badly and he had his lab confiscated twice. This is an example of how this kind of tech can lead to serious trouble if divulged.
That's why I will never disclose what we went trough 12 years ago.




[quote]Without a solid theoretical foundation behing it, or a well documented set of experiments that can be reproduced by independent scientific teams, it is just what I called it. Pseudo science. Cold fusion comes to mind.

Wrong again. Study phonons.

You haven't produced one shred of data or experimental evidence that has been corroborated by others under controlled conditions, to qualify it as science

You stand correct. I better not present this.
I know nothing. I thought I did.
I am learning it again.

[hung]

If you don't agree that's it's ideomotor effect, then what do you believe?

If the term 'I know' may be somewhat offensive, then I might use 'I believe'.
It's our body's electromagnetic pattern which emanates in vortex like emissions in this case from our hands. Our chakras have the same vortex behavior.
You may say we are a kind of a resonating bio coil. It's all frequencies after all. You can't imagine how frequencies rule this universe.

But this is another story.
Good night gentlemen.

[Dell Winders]

Yes, I utilize a trained Ideomotor response for my mental Dowsing. I know that. Is that the full Scientific explanation for how I am able to obtain provable results with consistency??

Your explanation seems very simplistic. Carl, imagines mental Dowsing success as guessing, by observing revealing clues in the photo, or topo landscape??

Both explanations raise more questions than they answer. Can you elobrate on how my brain is able to focus on to the location of some select targets, at places I have never been with accuracy, and other types of targets be inaccurate??

Thanks for adding your Scientific knowledge. So, far your expertise of the subject has been quite revealing.

"WHAT HAS BEEN DONE, CAN BE DONE" Dell

[Qiaozhi]

Yes, I utilize a trained Ideomotor response for my mental Dowsing. I know that. Is that the full Scientific explanation for how I am able to obtain provable results with consistency??
"provable results with consistency" - if this is true then you should be eligible for the $1Million prize. :rolleyes:

Your explanation seems very simplistic.
Occam's Razor strikes again.

Carl, imagines mental Dowsing success as guessing, by observing revealing clues in the photo, or topo landscape??
He's correct.
""
Both explanations raise more questions than they answer.
No - they fully explain the situation.

Can you elobrate on how my brain is able to focus on to the location of some select targets, at places I have never been with accuracy, and other types of targets be inaccurate??
No - I cannot elobrate (sic) as this is only possible in an imaginary world.

Thanks for adding your Scientific knowledge. So, far your expertise of the subject has been quite revealing.
Any time. I hope you learnt something useful. :p

"Life is really simple, but we insist on making it complicated." Confucious
(http://thinkexist.com/quotation/life_is_really_simple-but_we_insist_on_making_it/201092.html)

[Dell Winders]

Any time. I hope you learnt something useful. :p

I Did! You taught me you are merely a scientific pretender wallowing in self imposed ignorance, and arrogance, who doesn't have a clue about the subject of Dowsing you are attempting to discuss.

Let me know when you are back to reality and It's safe for me to try again to obtain intelligent answers to my questions.

"The door to understanding & knowledge is never open to a closed, or prejudiced mind" Dell

[Rudy]

Unfortunately the term 'ambiguity' is much more apropriate to most science today than it ever was.

Groundless assertion on your part. Facts please.


No, no. It's the opposite ! No theory will be ever made without first empiric experimentation. By performing what you state above, you show EXACTLY how handicaped scientific aproach is today. Theory will only be formulated when you think you know what just happened in your experiment! Then you look for a mathematical of physical understanding. How absurd is the idea of having a theory be first launched than an experiment! You would be limiting the experimentation solely!

I think you are getting hung up on this. Yes, quite often, a theory is developed to replace a previous theory, when certain observations are made, which were not predicted by previous theory. But, I would not call these observations deliberate experiments. In any case, the existing theory is revised, or a new theory is put forth, that accounts for all previously known behaviors plus the new empirical observation. This new/modified theory is put to the test by determining what new behaviors the theory predicts and then experiments are devised to check out wether the new predicted behavior actually occurs.


In our case. We did the experiment, then we had to revise physics to acomodate it. But first we had an initial mathematical model which could be physically reproduced. Then by using the math applied in what was observed, new aspects were displayed.

Well, since you are not willing to discuss the details, I can't comment on it, but your statement is exactly in line with what I said. The mathematical model that was developed initially is the starting theory (maybe hypothesis is a better term for the theory at that point of gestation).


Only if it does not prove being a military or power advantage. What do you think have happened to most of Tesla's papers?

They where either lost, or are in your personal library? :)


We are in our science infancy. In fact 18th and 19th century scientists are way ahead of today's in many aspects. Part because there's no more scientific research as used to be in that era. Part because of financial , more profitable reasons.

Way ahead as measured by what yardstick?
After having worked at Bell Telephone Laboratories for 10 years before the Justice Department broke up the Bell System, I am personally painfully aware of the tragic loss of basic research in this country.


One example that comes to mind of that era type researchers today are canadian John Hutchison, Reginald Jaynes and Naudin, to name a few. Huthcison's work using modified Tesla coils and Van der Graaf generators created what it's known today as the Hutchison Effect. This was first acomplished in 1979 by mere empyrical experimentation. Still how it can be reproduced is unknown today. Military seeked him badly and he had his lab confiscated twice. This is an example of how this kind of tech can lead to serious trouble if divulged. That's why I will never disclose what we went trough 12 years ago.


Last I heard Hutchison admitted he had "enhanced" one of his videos for a TV show.



Wrong again. Study phonons.

You stand correct. I better not present this.
I know nothing. I thought I did.
I am learning it again.

Anyway, what is the application of Hutchison's Effect to Treasure Hunting?

[michael]

I admit that this ability can truly shock you into thinking someone has some psychic ability. This is known as a "cold reading", and was very popular in Victorian times. There is nothing psychic about it. It's a very clever trick that almost anyone can learn. There are several free e-books on the internet, if you want to know how it's done. Read them, and don't get fooled again. :rolleyes:got fooled? no, I'm not a credulous or imbecile to got easily fooled. do you think I'm a kid? I deplore you judged quickly such a manner.
I know what you mean, there are many people with strong psychoanalysis power and are indeed charlatan, they first get your info(data) then transform and deliver it in different way to you.
yes, I have confronted frequently to many of them they couldn't get any of my info or personal tendencies, then for not become spoiled told many absurdities, and I laughed at them (as I'm very straightforward) and called them "Impostor" and changed their believers opinion.
but the guy I wrote about was with a real different abilities, he hadn't talked to me and when met each other except to some greetings didn't talk even one word, then he at once directly went to main affair and told all my personal and private things. He had a different nature.
one of my friends was very skeptic about this ability, when I arranged a meeting, he was like me shocked and believed.
Qiaozhi, what we are discussing about can't be found in internet and I'm sure it's not trickery, or rare people who can tell every thing about you only by touching your shirt or sweater without need to see or meet you. Now search in internet, deny it, only because found nothing in net.
Think a while; in internet we can't find an useful complete scientific book, now how can find one about such extraordinary abilities. maybe find some hints, but not practical for learning. these are abilities given for special men and proves we all have a shadow of them.
In net you can search for "Human View" can find some themes about, but not exact me and Hung mentioned....High frequency RF signals can also penetrate the earth, but their penetration is limited in depth....
Sorry, I didn't understand the above....Rudy, You believe that LF RFs penetrate less than HFs, OK, now consequently you believe HZ ranges are more penetrative than KHZ, yes? now I repeat my question [you said "sorry I didn't understand the above"]
Why OKM does produce and present VLF generator with very short antennas as complementary accessory for metals to be detected better? (as you see in picture). If injecting RFs into ground is a futile work, why they do this? as I wrote and you didn't heed, my compatriot has found by exps, his last found by exp5000 was a 22.3 Cm gold sheet at 210 Cm depth.

in a part of its' manual you read:
"Normally frequencies of less than 40 kHz are used.
Place the four VLF sender in a square or rectangle and power on all sender. Now you can execute a normal measurement in operating mode Ground Scan, see figure 40. By using the VLF sender in particular all metallic objects will be enforced more than a measurement without sender."

[hung]

Both explanations raise more questions than they answer. Can you elobrate on how my brain is able to focus on to the location of some select targets, at places I have never been with accuracy, and other types of targets be inaccurate??

Dell, I'm not totally sure right now as I still haven't had the time to answer this conclusively. I do have the resources for this. You raised a good point so I will look into it in the near future. It's just a matter of some research with the resources I pocess. Although I don't like to coment on subjects I do not have a complete result explanation, I suspect this has to do with you own internal electromagnetic print interacting with two other energy fields, being one of earth's itself.

Let's do a quick and informal essay here. We know our brain emit electrical patterns. Even diminute, they also carry a magnetic 'printing'. Those are called thought forms. They are nothing more than frequencies which can be broadcast. So we are able to transmit and also to receive frequencies and 'vibrations'.
In the eighties, there was a very important experiment conducted which dealt with this. Thought forms were broadcast from a human subject to an IBM 360 computer through an interface which transformed them in 'bytes' and then sent to a Cray 1 computer which translated them in actual frequencies.
They amplified these signals and used transmitters to span the transmission spectrum using white and pink noises empyrically in the Mhz range along with a special configuration antenna for this. Results were astounding and I will not coment it here as this raises other much more complex issues.

So what do we have here? We are able upon using our thoughts(thought forms) to transmit frequencies as well.
So what does that mean in relation to dowsing, pendulum, etc.?
My view is that our brain might interact with those instruments if we desire or even unconsciously if not pursuing a trained mind. So for instance, in the case of a pendulum, it moves according to earth's own electromagnetic field and to its own frequency which is around 7.8 Hz and along with your own. Experiment say, telling the pendulum in thoughts or speaking out loud a command for it to turn to a partidular direction or instead of circular to perform a straight line swing. It will do it. No. It's not ideomotor response. Ideomotor is a term which is largely misused in an attempt of explaining things which cannot be understood in such cases.

But then there's another field and energy which is much more powerful then both. It's the one which lies in the ether and pocesses an inteligent and logical pattern and does not interfere ramdonly. This energy acts independently of your desire or the earth's own field pattern.

Finally when all those three fields are confronted, different results will appear depending on the balance or unbalancing of these three forces.
You then may figure out why dowsing and the pendulum might get non consistent and false results sometimes.

The above is what I imagine according to what I already know. But further research is needed to understand how this third force acts. And I tell you conclusions might reveal one aspect which many will never accept, but... the truth always prevail.

Thanks for adding your Scientific knowledge. So, far your expertise of the subject has been quite revealing.

"WHAT HAS BEEN DONE, CAN BE DONE" Dell

Sorry Dell , I will have to politely and gratefuly decline your compliment. My knowledge is quite limited.
I do however study and research to always feed my imagination. As you state yourself, we have to always keep an open mind, otherwise true knowledge will never get in.

[Qiaozhi]

I Did! You taught me you are merely a scientific pretender wallowing in self imposed ignorance, and arrogance, who doesn't have a clue about the subject of Dowsing you are attempting to discuss.

Let me know when you are back to reality and It's safe for me to try again to obtain intelligent answers to my questions.

"The door to understanding & knowledge is never open to a closed, or prejudiced mind" Dell
I only have 3 things to say in response to this post:

1. I was under the impression that you had already received your final warning regarding name calling on this forum. :eek:
At least Hung is capable of engaging in friendly banter and still maintain a certain level of decorum, even if we agree to disagree.

2. Someone like yourself, who has a vested interest in promoting this dowsing nonsense, will never be open minded enough to accept that they are wrong, even in the face of overwhelming evidence.
"Teachers open the door, but you must enter by yourself".

3. According to your own website:

"In the process of elimination. I obtained an aerial Photo of the area, plotted many Dowsed Treasure burials, and Dowsed several locations where visible, above ground Markers relating to that particular Treasure might be found."

The words "many" and "several" were highlighted by me.
You then go on to state:

"When I went there more than a year later, the photo below shows the Dowsed location of one of the visible markers related to the Treasure."

Again, I have highlighted the word "one". So it appears that only one out many/several dowsed locations actually contained anything of interest. In this case, it was some white rocks, but no treasure. This technique of only seeing what you want to see, is one that is borrowed from cold-reading.
This doesn't seem to be the "powerful Treasure research tool" that you claim on your website. :rolleyes:

[Dell Winders]

Qiaozhi, You make it appear that you have quantative scientific experience to authoritivly speak on the subject of Mental dowsing. Yet your remarks exhibit no knowledge, or experience with mental dowsing. If you are implying that you have more experience with the practical use of Dowsing than I have, then you are indeed a pretender.

Again, What you said really doesn't make any sense in the real world of Treasure hunting.

Can you provide a link that will allow me access to the website you are quoting from. Thanks, Dell

[Qiaozhi]

Qiaozhi, You make it appear that you have quantative scientific experience to authoritivly speak on the subject of Mental dowsing. Yet your remarks exhibit no knowledge, or experience with mental dowsing. If you are implying that you have more experience with the practical use of Dowsing than I have, then you are indeed a pretender.

Again, What you said really doesn't make any sense in the real world of Treasure hunting.

Can you provide a link that will allow me access to the website you are quoting from. Thanks, Dell
Now you are being facetious. You are using the terms "quantative scientific experience" and "mental dowsing" to support each other in the same sentence.
How could I possibly have more experience than you with mental dowsing? Once you understand the real reason that the pendulum moves as it does, then it becomes a pointless exercise (much like the ouija board) as you have clearly demonstrated in your postings. :rolleyes: Firstly you create a long list of possible sites by unconciously observing clues on the map, and then in a sudden case of amnesia, ignore the ones that did not yield results. In case you've forgotten the URL :confused:(which you posted only yesterday in this thread) here it is ->
http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.p...c,24475.0.html (http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,24475.0.html)

[Jim]

Gads...looks as if Carl needs to move a few posts over to the Dell Winders Crybaby thread ;)

[Qiaozhi]

Gads...looks as if Carl needs to move a few posts over to the Dell Winders Crybaby thread ;)
You could be right. I feel like crying too ... tears of laughter! :D :D :D

[Rudy]

Michael,

I believe that for equal power input, low frequency RF penetrates more deeply than high frequency RF.

[robert]

:confused: :confused: :confused:
Quiaozhi,friend,
cant you stop wasting your time here?
You are aproved to be conversant in stuff we are interested - metal detectors and electronics.
Than why dont you spend more time on threads like "Modifications","Schematics" etc...
We can take much more benefit from your knowledge and mind there, instead wasting
time,nervs and health here on such nonsences like "radionics"...ha,ha,ha...
What a nonsences???!!! hung and dell already showed as persistent, and nobody
(except administrator) cant stop them. Talking here with them,you are just giving
more "life" to their nonsences.
I realised that some time ago,therefore i am not coming here any more to bug my self with
stupid nonsences and anoying kind of people here.
Fact that carl deleted some of my posts cleary shows that "they" are even protected and freely
can spread nonsences more and more here?!
Quiaozhi, friend, cant you see that their main idea is to turn this technical forum
in to funny place,to destroy this forum credibility,level....
My (provoked) "anatognism" with carl didnt put me out of this place,no,not at all.
If i wanted to continue with my "style" of dealing with those(hung,dell...) i could register
under 100 nicks more and really bash and bug them to "death" here. Nobody can stop me!
For sure not carl...But i am not that persistent,i already saw that
talking with those people (hung,dell) is wasting time and nothing else.
They are just that "kind of people", you can not change them. Best way is to ignore
them,their nonsences and stupid claims and posts.
I am not vindictive and i do not want to sound ironic, but let us be reminded on my
previous claims about mineoro products!?
Let us read very first pages of threads with mineoro subjects...!?
Let see Michael's first posts there. Let see and read Michaels and mine argue,name calling,
"war" in the past.
I was trying to prevent Michael to waste his money on fg... device.
Without success! So finally Michael bought fg...and...???
Next Michael's post were full with doubts!?
I could answer him than, something in manner: "...i told you.." and than laugh to death!
But i did not!
Obviously he made mistake,he wasted money....his problem. I am still sorry about that,
but it is too late to fix it.
And hung? When Michael posted doubts about fg...what was hungs answer than? Ha,ha,ha!!!
Same thing with Ranger teller,same thing with "radionics", same thing with all hung's and
dell's philosophy so far!
Empty claims,pseudo science,populism,bogus...NOTHING!
hung is not easy to "beat".Simply he is clever,he is not stupid.
He already visited so many internet sites,
read already much of "populistic,pseudosienced" publications,same as dell.
The difference between hung and dell is only one; dell is long-term dowser,already
very experienced in "people cheating",very tricky man,also very clever!
hung,on other side is member of mineoro "making money" team,he is "working" here,on this forum.
He takes percent of every sold mineoro device,cose he advertises those,"loud mouthing"
everywhere on the internet forums under various nicks.
So hungs behavior is understandable. Simply,man is making money here! Bravo hung!
But only one thing is buging me here, still;
as academic mind i have to say that "those" peoples hardest weapon is populism and
pseudoscience. Huge percent of forum visitors and memebers are amateurs, amateur
constructors,enthusiasts. Very few of those are ee's with complete knowledge involved
in subjects here. So,if we put some wrong,bogus idea in "populistic" form and support it
with only pieces of true science(carefully chosen pieces) and than post that as
many times hung did......well,than huge number of mentioned amateurs and laics will
"bite the hook" and start to beleive in those nonsences! Harm is done!
Even if some member decide to check simillar claims,he will be in position to check
only those "carefully chosen pieces" taken from real science. By checking those,he will
be in a lot of doubts about everything. Slowly,step by step he will start to beleive
in every nonsence ever posted here by hung and dell.....and few people more.
So, Quiaozhi be clever, leave this threads and come to "technical" threads,involve
yourself more in real problems. Let us (this forum) benefit from you knowledge.
Leave this nonsences.Leave "those" people alone. Let them argue and spread nonsenced
philosophy among theirselves....ha,ha,ha...
Rudy...you too, also!
Michael,although you involved yourself deep here,it is not too late to recover. You look
as very honest man to me,at the end. Do not let yourself be missleaded any more!
Save yourself Michael. Money you wasted on fg...is nothing compared with wrong ideas and
pseudoscience you are dangered to be "sucked" in!
************************************************** *****
I think you addresed this to me and some of my previous posts:
"About this as I remember in previous discussions in different threads some members believed
high frequencies (at MHZ or GHZ scales can spread or penetrate appropriately in soil and ground)
now I see you are in versus.you believe in VLFs in Hz scale!!! 2 days before I got acquainted
with a genius in physic...."

"some members believed high frequencies..."
First,Michael, i do NOT "beleive"! All my "beleifs" i DO rely on knowledge i accepted through
years of my study! Second, i upgraded my previous "academic" knowledge during 25 years of
REAL working with REAL problems on REAL projects!
I do consider my self (also aproven by so many relevant experts worldvide) as very conversant
to talk about RF, ...high freq., low freq., and many more....
"Spreading" in soil....huh, this question is too complex to explain in a few words. I should
write whole book( i already did several...) even to approximate to you all eventual aspects
of this "problematic". Do i need that? Do you need that? Are you gonna understand that? (as
amateur,laic..) Of course NOT!
I rather choose to use few sentences and explain in short terms that high freq. CAN NOT
PENETRATE into soil. Period.
But,i presume that thing what really confuses you and few other members here is fact that
high freq. is mentioned many times in so many advertisements where some "high tech" equipment
is subject. Usually, things are not adecuate explained there.So if laic as yourself see
that kind of claims, he can mix up facts out of main context.
For example i can name some true and science-supported tehniques if we talk about "long"
range locating:
* GPR....Shortly, this technique uses reflection of HIGH FREQ. electromagentic ways(10MHz to
1000 MHZ and more...)...probably this confused you much!?
* Frequency Domain Electromagnetic
* Time Domain Electromagnetics
* Resistivity
* Magnetic (magnetic field measurements)
* Radiometric (gama radiation...)
* Seismic Reflection
* Gravity
And so on,and so on.....
"...We talked much about radio frequencies,...I asked him" do you admit RFs can travel on &
inside ground?" his A:" Yes, high frequencies do this much better, the lower the more difficult
" As I had made test myself by my RF generator; either in HZ or KHZ, asked his opinion about it.
he told : "it depends on power & amplification, in what power?" my A: " e.g. 100 Watt" his A:
" yes of course" My Q:" how far? some inches or 1 meter?"[here I knew answer based on my own
experience] his A:" no, much more, based on ground condition up to 100 or hundreds meters" I
added :" some people who claim are very experienced and knowledgeable in RF sciences, believe
that these kind of waves can go only up to some inches,.." He was surprised and told these are
axiom.His comments was exact conjoint to my EE friend comments...."

"...genius in physic..." ??? According to your short story,that man is far away of being any
kind of genius!!?? Lunatic maybe,but genius NOT!
Or maybe man is not lunatic,maybe he is genius. But,you as laic,can not talk with him properly.
You do not know how to ask proper questions. You are not awared of all aspects of that instant
problem? Think twice. Same thing here,on this forum.Laics are trying to make "serious"
conversation with experts!? Ts,ts,ts...!
By this i do not mean to offend you or anybody else here.These are the facts!
Try to spend more time with that "genius" of yours and try to further explain real problems
and questions in this subject(long range locating) to him.Later you will gain same answers and
conlusions as you may read from my posts...
"Ad hock" questions,answers and conclusions are just helping populistic&pseudo-science to
expand and extend nonsences more and more here!
Physic as real science(i mean pure physic) is dealing with abstract concepts and dimensions.
Calculations and formulas in Physic are more academic than you can imagine, my friend.
It is so easy to prove many things,using pure physic and mathematics, but in real life those
proofs remain only academic and have role to be standing points from which man can go further,
sort of basis for further revelations. Of course, mainly, physic relly on easy provable facts with
fundamentals from real life,unlike any pseudoscience...
To understand a bit more,you should return to school,read some books....but hey,you should though
about that before!
At the end it is very good to have here people like hung and dell posting their nonsences
as usually they do. Very funny posts. I do enjoy reading those from time to time!
Whole dell's and eventual hung's "experience",seems to be based on missunderstanding of
subject itself!? "Playing" with dowsers tools,dell adopted very wrong ideas during all those
years on the field. Sorry for you dell! Very sorry!
Illiteracy in any kind of real science put dell and hung in position to estblish very wrong ideas
and to start a quite new pseudoscience here!?
They are victims! That's why i do feel very sorry about them!
They gonna spend whole life in missunderstanding in everything what surrounds them in nature.
I am very,very sorry for them! But hey! They are not stupid! They found way to earn some
money from all those illiteracy! Bravo boys! But not fair! Not honest! Think about that!

I do not come here to post any more,but i am here all the time. Every day.
hung,dell,Michael,Quiaozhi,Rudy...happy new year to all of you.Best wishes anyway!
regards
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Rudy]

Happy New Year to you too Robert. And thanks for your insightful comments.

[Qiaozhi]

Thanks Robert. I miss your presence on this forum. :)

Of course, you are absolutely correct. I have much more important things to do than to waste time here bashing my head against a wall. ;)

The pseudoscience advocates have their own hidden agendas and vested interests, which is usually money. But sometimes I just cannot help myself when I see this nonsense being posted, especially when some people are gullible enough to believe it.

I'll try to spend more time on the technical forums, but I'll still be monitoring this LRL nonsense for any misinformation.

Wo zhi ni xin nian kuai le! (I wish you a Happy New Year!)

[hung]

I'll try to spend more time on the technical forums, but I'll still be monitoring this LRL nonsense for any misinformation


Except for the word 'nonsense' from your part, that's exactly why I'm here too.
To avoid any misinformation as well. And there are many.:eek:

PS. I realize I can't discuss the radionics topic here unfortunately. As I thought, many here ignore it completely and rely on a completely wrong concept of backing themselves in highshcool physics to try to cope with it.
Now I remember one of the nuclear physicists , my friend, telling me 12 years ago:
"This discovery we made was possible due to our open mind and deep research in this area. You don't imagine how envious and violent my group of colleagues(physics) get when they don't understand something which should be based on classic principles".
Wow. He was absolutely right as I see this is a reality in all cases.
And as I don't feel like sharing the info I got this way, good luck to whoever came here to read about radionics and always research. Never limit your horizons.
Regards.

[Dell Winders]

:eek: It appears that the person(s) who pretend to be all knowing God(s) , (or wannabe dictator?) in wisdom, (or lack of) has judged us lowly earthly beings as, nonsensical, and dis-honest, and bestows condemenation on our humble efforts to share what we have learned, and practice by provable examples, with our fellow humans.

These Gods of denial and condemenation of fact & truth, who cannot accept the premise that what I speak of has already been done, declare they are giving up and retreating to their own Boxed in world of electronics and metal detectors.

I doubt their word, but let's hope it's faithfully kept. Then, perhaps reality and truth of the real world of deep buried Treasure Hunting, and existing events of personal human experience and knowledge will prevail without intentional agitation and mocking from those who demonstrate a lesser knowledge and lack of practical field experience of the subjects of Remote Sensing Locating, or Dowsing. Dell


:confused: :confused: :confused:
Quiaozhi,friend,
cant you stop wasting your time here?
You are aproved to be conversant in stuff we are interested - metal detectors and electronics.
Than why dont you spend more time on threads like "Modifications","Schematics" etc...
We can take much more benefit from your knowledge and mind there, instead wasting
time,nervs and health here on such nonsences like "radionics"...ha,ha,ha...
What a nonsences???!!! hung and dell already showed as persistent, and nobody
(except administrator) cant stop them. Talking here with them,you are just giving
more "life" to their nonsences.
I realised that some time ago,therefore i am not coming here any more to bug my self with
stupid nonsences and anoying kind of people here.
Fact that carl deleted some of my posts cleary shows that "they" are even protected and freely
can spread nonsences more and more here?!
Quiaozhi, friend, cant you see that their main idea is to turn this technical forum
in to funny place,to destroy this forum credibility,level....
My (provoked) "anatognism" with carl didnt put me out of this place,no,not at all.
If i wanted to continue with my "style" of dealing with those(hung,dell...) i could register
under 100 nicks more and really bash and bug them to "death" here. Nobody can stop me!
For sure not carl...But i am not that persistent,i already saw that
talking with those people (hung,dell) is wasting time and nothing else.
They are just that "kind of people", you can not change them. Best way is to ignore
them,their nonsences and stupid claims and posts.
I am not vindictive and i do not want to sound ironic, but let us be reminded on my
previous claims about mineoro products!?
Let us read very first pages of threads with mineoro subjects...!?
Let see Michael's first posts there. Let see and read Michaels and mine argue,name calling,
"war" in the past.
I was trying to prevent Michael to waste his money on fg... device.
Without success! So finally Michael bought fg...and...???
Next Michael's post were full with doubts!?
I could answer him than, something in manner: "...i told you.." and than laugh to death!
But i did not!
Obviously he made mistake,he wasted money....his problem. I am still sorry about that,
but it is too late to fix it.
And hung? When Michael posted doubts about fg...what was hungs answer than? Ha,ha,ha!!!
Same thing with Ranger teller,same thing with "radionics", same thing with all hung's and
dell's philosophy so far!
Empty claims,pseudo science,populism,bogus...NOTHING!
hung is not easy to "beat".Simply he is clever,he is not stupid.
He already visited so many internet sites,
read already much of "populistic,pseudosienced" publications,same as dell.
The difference between hung and dell is only one; dell is long-term dowser,already
very experienced in "people cheating",very tricky man,also very clever!
hung,on other side is member of mineoro "making money" team,he is "working" here,on this forum.
He takes percent of every sold mineoro device,cose he advertises those,"loud mouthing"
everywhere on the internet forums under various nicks.
So hungs behavior is understandable. Simply,man is making money here! Bravo hung!
But only one thing is buging me here, still;
as academic mind i have to say that "those" peoples hardest weapon is populism and
pseudoscience. Huge percent of forum visitors and memebers are amateurs, amateur
constructors,enthusiasts. Very few of those are ee's with complete knowledge involved
in subjects here. So,if we put some wrong,bogus idea in "populistic" form and support it
with only pieces of true science(carefully chosen pieces) and than post that as
many times hung did......well,than huge number of mentioned amateurs and laics will
"bite the hook" and start to beleive in those nonsences! Harm is done!
Even if some member decide to check simillar claims,he will be in position to check
only those "carefully chosen pieces" taken from real science. By checking those,he will
be in a lot of doubts about everything. Slowly,step by step he will start to beleive
in every nonsence ever posted here by hung and dell.....and few people more.
So, Quiaozhi be clever, leave this threads and come to "technical" threads,involve
yourself more in real problems. Let us (this forum) benefit from you knowledge.
Leave this nonsences.Leave "those" people alone. Let them argue and spread nonsenced
philosophy among theirselves....ha,ha,ha...
Rudy...you too, also!
Michael,although you involved yourself deep here,it is not too late to recover. You look
as very honest man to me,at the end. Do not let yourself be missleaded any more!
Save yourself Michael. Money you wasted on fg...is nothing compared with wrong ideas and
pseudoscience you are dangered to be "sucked" in!
************************************************** *****
I think you addresed this to me and some of my previous posts:
"About this as I remember in previous discussions in different threads some members believed
high frequencies (at MHZ or GHZ scales can spread or penetrate appropriately in soil and ground)
now I see you are in versus.you believe in VLFs in Hz scale!!! 2 days before I got acquainted
with a genius in physic...."

"some members believed high frequencies..."
First,Michael, i do NOT "beleive"! All my "beleifs" i DO rely on knowledge i accepted through
years of my study! Second, i upgraded my previous "academic" knowledge during 25 years of
REAL working with REAL problems on REAL projects!
I do consider my self (also aproven by so many relevant experts worldvide) as very conversant
to talk about RF, ...high freq., low freq., and many more....
"Spreading" in soil....huh, this question is too complex to explain in a few words. I should
write whole book( i already did several...) even to approximate to you all eventual aspects
of this "problematic". Do i need that? Do you need that? Are you gonna understand that? (as
amateur,laic..) Of course NOT!
I rather choose to use few sentences and explain in short terms that high freq. CAN NOT
PENETRATE into soil. Period.
But,i presume that thing what really confuses you and few other members here is fact that
high freq. is mentioned many times in so many advertisements where some "high tech" equipment
is subject. Usually, things are not adecuate explained there.So if laic as yourself see
that kind of claims, he can mix up facts out of main context.
For example i can name some true and science-supported tehniques if we talk about "long"
range locating:
* GPR....Shortly, this technique uses reflection of HIGH FREQ. electromagentic ways(10MHz to
1000 MHZ and more...)...probably this confused you much!?
* Frequency Domain Electromagnetic
* Time Domain Electromagnetics
* Resistivity
* Magnetic (magnetic field measurements)
* Radiometric (gama radiation...)
* Seismic Reflection
* Gravity
And so on,and so on.....
"...We talked much about radio frequencies,...I asked him" do you admit RFs can travel on &
inside ground?" his A:" Yes, high frequencies do this much better, the lower the more difficult
" As I had made test myself by my RF generator; either in HZ or KHZ, asked his opinion about it.
he told : "it depends on power & amplification, in what power?" my A: " e.g. 100 Watt" his A:
" yes of course" My Q:" how far? some inches or 1 meter?"[here I knew answer based on my own
experience] his A:" no, much more, based on ground condition up to 100 or hundreds meters" I
added :" some people who claim are very experienced and knowledgeable in RF sciences, believe
that these kind of waves can go only up to some inches,.." He was surprised and told these are
axiom.His comments was exact conjoint to my EE friend comments...."

"...genius in physic..." ??? According to your short story,that man is far away of being any
kind of genius!!?? Lunatic maybe,but genius NOT!
Or maybe man is not lunatic,maybe he is genius. But,you as laic,can not talk with him properly.
You do not know how to ask proper questions. You are not awared of all aspects of that instant
problem? Think twice. Same thing here,on this forum.Laics are trying to make "serious"
conversation with experts!? Ts,ts,ts...!
By this i do not mean to offend you or anybody else here.These are the facts!
Try to spend more time with that "genius" of yours and try to further explain real problems
and questions in this subject(long range locating) to him.Later you will gain same answers and
conlusions as you may read from my posts...
"Ad hock" questions,answers and conclusions are just helping populistic&pseudo-science to
expand and extend nonsences more and more here!
Physic as real science(i mean pure physic) is dealing with abstract concepts and dimensions.
Calculations and formulas in Physic are more academic than you can imagine, my friend.
It is so easy to prove many things,using pure physic and mathematics, but in real life those
proofs remain only academic and have role to be standing points from which man can go further,
sort of basis for further revelations. Of course, mainly, physic relly on easy provable facts with
fundamentals from real life,unlike any pseudoscience...
To understand a bit more,you should return to school,read some books....but hey,you should though
about that before!
At the end it is very good to have here people like hung and dell posting their nonsences
as usually they do. Very funny posts. I do enjoy reading those from time to time!
Whole dell's and eventual hung's "experience",seems to be based on missunderstanding of
subject itself!? "Playing" with dowsers tools,dell adopted very wrong ideas during all those
years on the field. Sorry for you dell! Very sorry!
Illiteracy in any kind of real science put dell and hung in position to estblish very wrong ideas
and to start a quite new pseudoscience here!?
They are victims! That's why i do feel very sorry about them!
They gonna spend whole life in missunderstanding in everything what surrounds them in nature.
I am very,very sorry for them! But hey! They are not stupid! They found way to earn some
money from all those illiteracy! Bravo boys! But not fair! Not honest! Think about that!

I do not come here to post any more,but i am here all the time. Every day.
hung,dell,Michael,Quiaozhi,Rudy...happy new year to all of you.Best wishes anyway!
regards

[Qiaozhi]

:eek: It appears that the person(s) who pretend to be all knowing God(s) , (or wannabe dictator?) in wisdom, (or lack of) has judged us lowly earthly beings as, nonsensical, and dis-honest, and bestows condemenation on our humble efforts to share what we have learned, and practice by provable examples, with our fellow humans.

These Gods of denial and condemenation of fact & truth, who cannot accept the premise that what I speak of has already been done, declare they are giving up and retreating to their own Boxed in world of electronics and metal detectors.

I doubt their word, but let's hope it's faithfully kept. Then, perhaps reality and truth of the real world of deep buried Treasure Hunting, and existing events of personal human experience and knowledge will prevail without intentional agitation and mocking from those who demonstrate a lesser knowledge and lack of practical field experience of the subjects of Remote Sensing Locating, or Dowsing. Dell
No-one is "retreating" to any type of "Boxed in world". It's a tactical withdrawal in order to do something more useful, rather than attempting to lead the technically ignorant out of a world of pseudoscience and into the real world.

With a brain the size of a planet, no wonder you can carry on your treasure hunting business by working at home. That's what you call extremely long range locating (ELRL). :D :D

[michael]

Michael, I believe that for equal power input, low frequency RF penetrates more deeply than high frequency RF.Thank you Rudy, Ok, good, but how deep?
we assume a 5 KHz or 5 HZ Fr., with 100 W output and 30 V amplitude.

Robert,firstly thanks for some of your compassions for me.
secondly taunting, belittling and using some terms: GPR, Time Domain Electromagnetics,... are not luminous and convincing answers. please give a simple and bright answer to my question: Can one VLF RF (e.g. 5 KHZ with 100 watt out and 30V amplitude) be spread in soil up to 4 meters? is this a dilemma? please don't twist the matter, albeit before in one post I asked you.
without getting any answer.
thirdly :The guy was really genius and his descriptions were thoroughly conjoint to my another friend. then you believe both were laic? Whoever don't agree with you, is laic? what a logic!!! Since when one guy who have scholarship admission from Cambridge university is a laic?!!
Robert, we presume you aren't a sheer theorisian and as you frequently claimed, you are 25 years experienced in RFs and very up-to-date, OK, well, Are you really able to paralyze or mislead one spy-satellite in detecting a target on ground e.g. launch pad of rockets? a bit explain please.
please don't dodge through answer my questions, I'm looking for them.

[Dell Winders]

Now you are being facetious. You are using the terms "quantative scientific experience" and "mental dowsing" to support each other in the same sentence.
How could I possibly have more experience than you with mental dowsing? Once you understand the real reason that the pendulum moves as it does, then it becomes a pointless exercise (much like the ouija board) as you have clearly demonstrated in your postings. :rolleyes: Firstly you create a long list of possible sites by unconciously observing clues on the map, and then in a sudden case of amnesia, ignore the ones that did not yield results. In case you've forgotten the URL :confused:(which you posted only yesterday in this thread) here it is ->
http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.p...c,24475.0.html

Thanks for supplying the link.

Sorry, I fail to understand the twisted logic that admits you know little or nothing about mental dowsing, then in the same post you proceed to tell an experienced Dowser what they are doing, and how they are doing it.

I can understand why you have had no success at Dowsing ,but it serems you are more interested in criticizing, mocking, character assination, and being dis-respectful to those who know what they are talking about, than learning facts and truth about the subject.
2. Someone like yourself, who has a vested interest in promoting this dowsing nonsense, will never be open minded enough to accept that they are wrong, even in the face of overwhelming evidence.
Absolute lying BS. I have no vested interest in promoting Dowsing.

Firstly you create a long list of possible sites by unconciously observing clues on the map, and then in a sudden case of amnesia, ignore the ones that did not yield results. More imaginary BS, demonstrating your ignorance of the subject.

You have demonstrated you are totally out of your field of knowledge about Dowsing & LRL, so don't pretend to know what you are talking about.

I don't mock your electronics ability, or pretend to know more about electronics than you, so stop being an agitator and playing God, and stick to sharing what you have experience with, and I will continue to do the same in sharing my field expereience with LRL, or Dowsing. Dell

[robert]

"...Can one VLF RF (e.g. 5 KHZ with 100 watt out and 30V amplitude) be spread in soil up to 4 meters? "

Depends of density and composition of soil....Generally - no way!


"Are you really able to paralyze or mislead one spy-satellite in detecting a target on ground e.g. launch pad of rockets? a bit explain please."

No comment!


regards

[Qiaozhi]

Thanks for supplying the link.

Sorry, I fail to understand the twisted logic that admits you know little or nothing about mental dowsing, then in the same post you proceed to tell an experienced Dowser what they are doing, and how they are doing it.
Hmmm... an interesting response. :rolleyes: It appears that I have pressed on a sensitive nerve.
Mental dowsing is exactly described by its name - "mental".

I can understand why you have had no success at Dowsing ,but it serems you are more interested in criticizing, mocking, character assination, and being dis-respectful to those who know what they are talking about, than learning facts and truth about the subject.
I already know the facts. Dowsing is a trick of the mind.
Also, I am not interested in name calling. My criticisms are aimed at dowsing and LRLs, and other misleading information that is presented as being factual and based on solid scientific principles, when it is in truth nothing but BS.

Absolute lying BS. I have no vested interest in promoting Dowsing.
Does this mean you no longer sell LRLs and/or dowsing rods, and that you provide your dowsing services for free?? :eek:

More imaginary BS, demonstrating your ignorance of the subject.
Are you now retracting the information you previously posted on Treasurenet? I have only reiterated your own verbage.

You have demonstrated you are totally out of your field of knowledge about Dowsing & LRL, so don't pretend to know what you are talking about.
As I said before, once you understand the real reason that the pendulum moves as it does, then it becomes a pointless exercise. Therefore it should be obvious that I am unlikely to practise any sort of dowsing (mental or otherwise) since it has more to do with the psychic world than the real world.

I don't mock your electronics ability, or pretend to know more about electronics than you, so stop being an agitator and playing God, and stick to sharing what you have experience with, and I will continue to do the same in sharing my field expereience with LRL, or Dowsing. Dell
On the front page of this website there is the following statement: "This is the first and only web site dedicated entirely to the technology of treasure hunting. The goal is to provide technical information on metal detectors, magnetometers, long range locators, and various types of geophysical surveying instruments."
The key words here are "provide technical information".
When the "technical information" provided is nothing more than gobbledygook, then you must expect critcism. When Esteban (for example) posts his LRL experiments here, I am genuinely interested in the results, but blatant pseudoscientific and spiritual/psychic nonesense is unacceptable.

[Rudy]

Thank you Rudy, Ok, good, but how deep?
we assume a 5 KHz or 5 HZ Fr., with 100 W output and 30 V amplitude.


Robert, I don't think anyone can tell you that anwer. There are just too many variables depending on the specific ground conditions (mineralization, how homogeneus the ground matrix is, moisture content,....). You can make some educated guesses since you are considering a frequency range used by VLF detectors, about how deep the RF would penetrate.

The estimate could be made by assuming the following:

1- The power of the RF energy pumped out by the VLF detector is on the order of 100 milliwatts, and you are talking about 100 Watts, or 1000 times more power.

2- Assume the ground is totatlly homogenuos (it isn't, but just assume it is).

3- The energy of the RF wave falls off as the square of the distance from the source.

BUT, that is only a small part of the problem. You haven't mentioned what detection scheme you plan to use. Something like is used in a VLF metal detector, a PI type of circuit, or something else.

The reason you are pumping the RF signal into the ground is because you want to detect a target and that is the biggest problem. The signal from the target is proportional to the amount of energy it receives from the transmitter. Since the transmitter signal is quickly diminishing as it penetrates the ground, the signal generated by the target will be very small for deep targets. That signal has to travel back to the surface where your detection equipment is and that signal will also be losing energy as the square of the distance it has to travel. At the same time, the mineralization present in the ground is also responding to the same RF signal you injected and is generating signals of its own. This is adding undersirable "noise" and for deep targets, the target signal would be totally hidden by this "noise" and become undetectable.

Notice that if you increase the transmitter power to penetrate further, you are also increasing the amount of "noise" that is being generated by the mineralization, so it doesn't help with detection. I am afraid that this becomes the limiting factor for detecting deep targets.

[michael]

Thank you for your answers especially you Rudy, special thank for patient explanations and useful information, much enlightening at least for me.

[Rudy]

Thank you for your answers especially you Rudy, special thank for patient explanations and useful information, much enlightening at least for me.

U-R-Welcome. :)

[Rudy]

Are you really sure about this Mr. Rudy?
That's why I say there's much more than meets the eye.
A reduction in antenna's size has been done before in a special case and it proved infinite advantage over the original design.
In the early 80's, a scottish professor named Maurice Hately and Fathl Kabbary were working a completely different antenna design. The great concept of this design was based on the premise that a magnetic field could be produced without a current flow in a wire (hey there, does it sound familiar?) They used the reveresed negative solution of Maxwell's fourth equation and proved that a magnetic field really exists between 2 capacitor plates when a RF voltage is applied.
Years and years later, I believe in the 90's, I think it was Kabbary who made a revolutionary design change in the antenna, employing a top which had funnel shape. This resulted in a design with only 21 feet tall in relation to the vertical design was replaced, 211 feet(!) in height. And later, tests demonstrated it had 800% advantage (about 9db) over the vertical one quarter wavelength design. This antenna was set in Egypt.
So the idea of requiring long antennas for whatever purpose, many times does not hold true.
If you only knew what can be done with 3 helmholtz coils/antennas... Never mind..

Hmm, I guess I had missed this post and didn't respond ... until now.
Yes, the cross field antenna you refer to uses the fringing electric field in a capacitor plate to generate a magnetic field. But quite a large electric field is required to do so. This could be used to make a smaller transmitting antena but you still have to cope with how to miniaturize a receiving antena. Ferrite antena? And you still have the hardest part to do, a method to discriminate the received signals between the desirable targets (gold/silver/platinum/...) and the surrounding junk.