Carl,check this out

[Seden]

I was reading over this patent I've had and was amazed at the similarity to what the 2 Inventors in South America are claiming. The number is:4,507,611 and basically it involves utilizing the ionic field from the solar winds to locate buried objects by amplitude,Frequency and frequency modulation of the object. I'm not saying these 2 Gentlemen stole this guy's patent, maybe I should say great minds run on the same channel. After you have had a chance to read and digest this, I would like to hear your take on this guy's idea.

Randy

[michael]

Interesting, amazing and noticeable. What do tell skeptics?
Seden, Can you give an address to refer us there or put additional info?

[okantex]

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5148110.pdf
may be a clue could be found .

[Esteban]

Randy, good info, thanks. Alonso and Damásio work in it for decades. Yes, they don't see this patent, the patent is "new".

[Qiaozhi]

Randy, good info, thanks. Alonso and Damásio work in it for decades. Yes, they don't see this patent, the patent is "new".
This is not a "new" patent. It was published on 15th September 1992 - 14 years ago.
Thanks Seden for posting this.

[Qiaozhi]

OK - I've very quickly scanned this patent, and it looks an application of magnetotullerics. This has nothing to do with detecting longtime buried gold using ions. Unless anyone would like to differ. :rolleyes:

[Esteban]

This is not a "new" patent. It was published on 15th September 1992 - 14 years ago.
Thanks Seden for posting this.

Yes, for me and the two inventors is new. Alonso start in long distance detection in 1959.

[Esteban]

I was reading over this patent I've had and was amazed at the similarity to what the 2 Inventors in South America are claiming. The number is:4,507,611 and basically it involves utilizing the ionic field from the solar winds to locate buried objects by amplitude,Frequency and frequency modulation of the object. I'm not saying these 2 Gentlemen stole this guy's patent, maybe I should say great minds run on the same channel. After you have had a chance to read and digest this, I would like to hear your take on this guy's idea.

Randy

Also this is "new" (1985).:D

[Qiaozhi]

I was reading over this patent I've had and was amazed at the similarity to what the 2 Inventors in South America are claiming. The number is:4,507,611 and basically it involves utilizing the ionic field from the solar winds to locate buried objects by amplitude,Frequency and frequency modulation of the object. I'm not saying these 2 Gentlemen stole this guy's patent, maybe I should say great minds run on the same channel. After you have had a chance to read and digest this, I would like to hear your take on this guy's idea.

Randy

Also this is "new" (1985).:D
As I said before, this is based on the measurement of telluric currents, and has nothing to do with detecting gold ions emitted by longtime buried gold (which incidently do not exist).

[Esteban]

As I said before, this is based on the measurement of telluric currents, and has nothing to do with detecting gold ions emitted by longtime buried gold (which incidently do not exist).

Are you sure? Also, remember my subtitle "The Sun involved" and you reply with a photo of rainbow.

http://thunting.com/geotech/forums/showthread.php?p=45699#post45699

[Qiaozhi]

As I said before, this is based on the measurement of telluric currents, and has nothing to do with detecting gold ions emitted by longtime buried gold (which incidently do not exist).

Are you sure? Also, remember my subtitle "The Sun involved" and you reply with a photo of rainbow.

http://thunting.com/geotech/forums/showthread.php?p=45699#post45699
This patent describes a method of detecting subterranean anomalies by monitoring the atmospheric electrostatic potential gradient. There is no mention of ions generated by longtime buried gold, which is the claimed basis of operation for the Mineoro ionic detector.

[Esteban]

But, of course, and this is merit of the both inventors! Repeat: buried good conductive metals buried for long time generated an ionic-electric field detectable for sensitive devices. This patent refers electric leakage, so gold can have leakage, or not?

As I ever said we are move in equilibrate environment an any umbalance of charges in this environment can be detectable. Justly, metal buried for long time causes umbalance of charges in the area, detectable by sensitive instruments. Be sure adjust your detector out this areas under suspicion there are treasure. So, the difference is the umbalance.

[okantex]

Hi Esteban And Qiaozhi,
please help me with this
it is an experiment time.
let thinkk that we have two special isolated rooms

1. ) first room ,we fill inside with + ions then insert a long bar magnet inside.

2.) second room,we fill inside with - ions than insert a long bar magnet inside

please explain what will happen.
your answers also will answer your problem in mineoro or zahori concept.

[Qiaozhi]

Hi Esteban And Qiaozhi,
please help me with this
it is an experiment time.
let thinkk that we have two special isolated rooms

1. ) first room ,we fill inside with + ions then insert a long bar magnet inside.

2.) second room,we fill inside with - ions than insert a long bar magnet inside

please explain what will happen.
your answers also will answer your problem in mineoro or zahori concept.
Answer - "nothing". You'll just have two rooms full of ions - one positive and the other negative.

[Carl-NC]

OK, I finally got a chance to read through this patent. First, the patent describes an alleged scientific phenomenon, and there is no mention of an invention. It would be like Einstein trying to get a patent on relativity. So this patent is not really a patent.

Helms does have two other patents... 4825165 (http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4825165.pdf) and 5148110 (http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5148110.pdf). I haven't read through these yet, but the latter appears to have more useful information.

Second, after reading the whole patent I agree with Qiaozhi... this appears to be a variation of telluric current techniques, though Helms says it is different. It is not a case of buried objects emitting ions, or of detecting ionic fields.

Third, I question some of the terminology and claims. "Vertical alternating electrical current" and "solar alternating current" are used quite often in the patent, yet these terms can't be found outside of Helms' patents. Also, Helms mentions that a steel sphere can "modulate" nearby electric currents... modulation requires a nonlinear interface, which a stationary steel sphere won't have.

Interestingly, "Ronald Helms" seems to be completely invisible outside of these 3 patents. He does not show up as a published author anywhere else. The address on the patent is for a medical building.

- Carl

[okantex]

Qiaozhi
when you pass elctrons through a wire ,you get magnetic field around it.is this okay.
so think reverse when you form a round magnetic field you get ions gethered around it.
is this imposibble

[Qiaozhi]

Qiaozhi
when you pass elctrons through a wire ,you get magnetic field around it.is this okay.
so think reverse when you form a round magnetic field you get ions gethered around it.
is this imposibble
Hi okantex,
I suspect you are thinking about mass spectroscopy, in which moving charged particles are deflected by a magnetic field. However, in the case you describe, the ions (charged particles) will not be attracted to the poles of the magnet. Ions are attracted to other (oppositely charged) ions.
Also it is worth noting that the force exerted on a moving charged particle is perpendicular to the path of the particle. For the particle to be attracted to a bar magnet, the force would need to be in parallel with the direction of motion.
So - as I said before - nothing will happen.

[okantex]

Qiaozhi
you are right .I could not tell what I thought.
think like this.
when you drive electron through wire you have magnetic force.according to right hand theory it forms circular path around wire.
now for a while think that we change places of electrons and magnetic force.
can magnetic force collect electrons or protons around it

[Esteban]

And more: the techonology is used for others! Part of the page (scientific page) said:

Mobile Metal Ions is a term used to describe ions which have moved in the weathering zone and that are only weakly or loosely attached to surface soil particles. It is a widely held belief that these Mobile Metal Ions are transported from deeply-buried ore bodies to the surface. Scientists from around the world have been studying this phenomenon for many years.
No-one is completely clear on exactly how the metal ions migrate to the surface.


... Because the ions have recently arrived to the surface they provide a precise ‘signal’ on where the ore-bodies are.

* * * * *

The red letters are mine. In the same way, the metal of a treasure can emit mobile ions to the surface.

Here the link:

http://www.sciencewa.net.au/science_rd.asp?pg=111

So, the rest of the job is yours: classify the ions.
http://thunting.com/geotech/forums/images/misc/progress.gif

[Qiaozhi]

And more: the techonology is used for others! Part of the page (scientific page) said:

Mobile Metal Ions is a term used to describe ions which have moved in the weathering zone and that are only weakly or loosely attached to surface soil particles. It is a widely held belief that these Mobile Metal Ions are transported from deeply-buried ore bodies to the surface. Scientists from around the world have been studying this phenomenon for many years.
No-one is completely clear on exactly how the metal ions migrate to the surface.


... Because the ions have recently arrived to the surface they provide a precise ‘signal’ on where the ore-bodies are.

* * * * *

The red letters are mine. In the same way, the metal of a treasure can emit mobile ions to the surface.

Here the link:

http://www.sciencewa.net.au/science_rd.asp?pg=111

So, the rest of the job is yours: classify the ions.

http://thunting.com/geotech/forums/images/misc/progress.gif

For some reason you have posted this twice. :confused:
Please see my reply to your other posting. :)

[Qiaozhi]

Qiaozhi
you are right .I could not tell what I thought.
think like this.
when you drive electron through wire you have magnetic force.according to right hand theory it forms circular path around wire.
now for a while think that we change places of electrons and magnetic force.
can magnetic force collect electrons or protons around it
You need a flow of electrons (current) to generate a magnetic field (as you have correctly stated). But - to reverse things - you also need a changing magnetic field to create a movement of electrons. A permanent magnet has a static (non-changing) magnetic field, so there will be no induced current, unless (of course) you physically move the magnet, which in turn creates a change of flux in any nearby metallic object.
Any interaction between charged particles and a magnetic field requires relative motion, which acts perpendicular to the direction of motion. The bottom line is that charged particles do not collect around the poles of a magnet.

[Esteban]

No necessary to floating, I never said these ions are floating. I said there are an electric difference in the soil capable to be detect. The company uses chemical method for to evaluate commercial possibilities. But you can use electronic methods.

In any case, gold does emit ions, even if it's buried for a million years.

This is the same opinion of Carl. The page don't specify about what kind of ions can migrates, but YOU know!!!!

Can you asure? Can you demonstrate? Can you show me a page wich demonstrates your aseveration? The theme is this: mobile metalic ions in the soil from depth. No more.

Yes, I post twice.

[goldfinder]

Hi Esteban And Qiaozhi,
please help me with this
it is an experiment time.
let thinkk that we have two special isolated rooms

1. ) first room ,we fill inside with + ions then insert a long bar magnet inside.

2.) second room,we fill inside with - ions than insert a long bar magnet inside

please explain what will happen.
your answers also will answer your problem in mineoro or zahori concept.

------------
To answer your question - If the bar magnet is conductive and metalic and connects the two rooms it wiil conduct the negative ions to the positive ions in the form of an electric current between the two rooms. If the bar magnet is a non-conductive ceramic nothing will happen.
Goldfinder

[Qiaozhi]

This whole thread is a confusion of ideas between electrostatics and electromagnetism. Electrostatics concerns charged particles. For charged particles to be affected by a stationary magnetic field, the charged particles must be in motion. In this case, there is a rate-of-change of charge with time, which (of course) constitutes a current -> from I = dq/dt.
Even when there is an interaction, the force acting on this stream of particles is at 90 degrees to the direction of motion. i.e. the particles can only be deflected by the magnetic field. They will never collect at the poles of a magnet, which is the hypothesis being proposed here.
End of story..... ;)

[okantex]

qiaozhi
can the part of magnetic field which I signed in circular area,collect + or - ions of air(oxygen ,...etc.)

[Carl-NC]

Haven't had much time to keep up with this... but Qiaozhi is right. A magnet does NOT attract ions to its poles. If it did, all of the magnets laying around would have a thick coating of ions on them. A magnetic field CAN deflect ions in motion... this is used in Ion Beam Depostion for thin-film products like hard disks.

[Elie]

Alonso start in long distance detection in 1959.
I would like to hear about this.

[Esteban]

At age 14... whit success. (Sorry, miracle is for believers!) Alonso was born June 15 1945.

I know details of first detection. From his patio, Alonso detect in direction of a church. With permission of the priest (catholic), they excavate in the site and found silver handles of coffins. In the past, the catholic christians was bury below floor of the churchs, in some countries.

But, in his childhood, Alonso was involved in other things, he built other kind of apparatus, motors, rockets, etc. At this time, Alonso was teach in electricity by an ex IWW German soldier, called Haber, he was an inventor. Haber was radiotechnician and invent a metal detector (during IWW) for unearth unexploded ordnances via low frequency induction (audio range) in the terrain with metalic stakes!

In some parts of his annotations I found dates from feb. 1958, this is the real year of starting in long range detection experiments.

But a man called Toto Coronel (in this time -1959-, 34 or 35 years old, today 80-81) insist in to build metal detector for long distance based on radio (they found some information about metal detection via radio). This information helps him, but isn't enough, regarding was difficult in the first moments classification of material. Alonso and Mr. Toto Coronel work in an idea wich works.This is the old detector, hand-drawing by Alonso (please, can't post other details, as schematic):

[Elie]

I wanted to hear about that guy because Carl wrote something about long range locator ads from 1973, but I guess that the racket is older than that.

[Carl-NC]

I wanted to hear about that guy because Carl wrote something about long range locator ads from 1973, but I guess that the racket is older than that.

Based on magazine ads (Old West, True West, various treasure titles) the earliest for-sale treasure-type LRL I've found is the Anderson rod from ~1973. I've been told that Anderson actually started ~1970. There may have been earlier marketed LRLs that I am unaware of.

- Carl

[Elie]

Based on magazine ads (Old West, True West, various treasure titles) the earliest for-sale treasure-type LRL I've found is the Anderson rod from ~1973. I've been told that Anderson actually started ~1970. There may have been earlier marketed LRLs that I am unaware of.

- Carl
Unlike real treasure hunting technology, it does not really matter when long range locators first appeared, because they did not actually do anything, but it would be interesting to find out when someone first thought of the scam. Maybe as far back as the 19th century.
What do you think of my latest post in the thread that I started?