Solve the circuit...

[Carl-NC]

Below is a real, honest-to-God circuit used in a commercial LRL. Let's see who can figure out what this circuit does, and what LRL company sold it?

I don't make this stuff up... don't have to.

[Dell Winders]

Carl, if you already know, what's the point, unless you are trying to run a game show here?

If the circuit works, what's the point?

These childish question games you try to play on your viewers appears you are trying to save face and getting desperate for credibility. Dell

[Qiaozhi]

Below is a real, honest-to-God circuit used in a commercial LRL. Let's see who can figure out what this circuit does, and what LRL company sold it?

I don't make this stuff up... don't have to.

Nice.....:eek:
It's a battery discharging circuit!!

Let's see if I'm correct - you press the switch and the LED turns on, but only for a moment, because the relay then shorts out the battery. Although I am wondering why there's a jack socket across the switch. Is this a remote switch facility?

Looks perfect for long range detection. :D


Carl, if you already know, what's the point, unless you are trying to run a game show here?

If the circuit works, what's the point?

These childish question games you try to play on your viewers appears you are trying to save face and getting desperate for credibility. Dell
Whoops! :( Was it one of your's then?

[Dell Winders]

Whoops! :( Was it one of your's then? Is that an assumption? Sorry, this is Carl's, question & inference game for intellectual players. I don't qualify. I am not a scientific pretender. So far, looks like you are playing by Carl's rules of presumption & assumption substituting guesses for fact.

But since you choose presumption, here's a clue about me that may help you win the game. I don't know anything about electronics, and I can't draw that good. We will just have to wait for little Carl, to finish playing another of his silly little Skeptic cult games, to learn his answer. Good luck,Qiaozhi! Dell

[Qiaozhi]

Is that an assumption? Sorry, this is Carl's, question & inference game for intellectual players. I don't qualify. I am not a scientific pretender. So far, looks like you are playing by Carl's rules of presumption & assumption substituting guesses for fact.

But since you choose presumption, here's a clue about me that may help you win the game. I don't know anything about electronics, and I can't draw that good. We will just have to wait for little Carl, to finish playing another of his silly little Skeptic cult games, to learn his answer. Good luck,Qiaozhi! Dell
Sorry Dell. I wasn't trying to upset you - but you did appear to take offensive rather quickly.;) And it wasn't a matter of assumption or presumption - more like implication.
If this is one of your's, then you need to fire your EE.:D

As we all know, there are many intentional scams to trap the unwary and - as they say - "once bitten, twice shy". Chinese people would say this slightly differently - "The man who has once been bitten by a snake, fears every piece of rope in the roadway." - same meaning.

[Dell Winders]

Qiaozhi, I don't share the Skeptic cult philosophy of "guilty by presumption". I don't have Carl's, ability to look at a photograph, or product, and declare it to be garbage, Dowsing, or prejudicely proclaim the manufacturer as a fraud.

From my perspective and the years of attacks on my honesty, Carl, is trying to maintain favor with his peers and is perpetrating his own fraud as a scientific pretender in support of the amazing lieing Randi, and the skeptic cult agenda.

I personally don't adhere to the Chinese pholosphy you spoke of either. I have been bitten in the head and leg by a seven foot alligator, and twice in the hand & arm by an 8 foot asian crocodile. I have had several altercations with large sharks in open water. This does not make me fear alligators, crocodiles and sharks. On the contrary, it provided me first hand opportunities for learning, and respect for their wonderful abilities.

Do you think Carl's allegations, and question & inference game, is a reaction to his having been scammed, and the once bitten, twice shy philosophy? Is he fearful of folks telling the truth? Dell

[robert]

:D :) :) :) :) :p :p :eek: :eek: :p :p :) :)
Ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha....!!!!!!!!!!! !
:) :D

[robert]

:D :)

This was ivconic's post some time ago...
"...About LRL....hmmm...in my 20 and more years dealing
with metal detectors and prospecting I have been seen
more LRL lunatics,mountebanks and charlatans than
U can imagine.None of them ever persuade...convince
me ever in that thing called LRL.For example let's
take the "famous" Electroscope series of LRL's...
...Infront of my eyes nobody ever
find anything with that method in last 20 years!
Those devices and methods are pure SF!I am very pissed off
when see advertisments on those devices and their prices
some 600,900....2000$ !!!!!Only idiot can buy that!
Just one story:
Last summer I met an dowsing idiot Who claimed that
he can "fill" a metal in the ground any depth and distance
with a telephone cable rolled on his head!!!Even one very
good constructor(I liked his project till than)beleived
in this story!I also met another dowsing idiot Who used
some plant root(with "magical power")to dowse!!!
************************************************** ***********
* But those two idiots are less idiots than buyers of LRL's,*
* because they saved money, at least!(telephone cable and *
* stupid plant are not expensive). *
************************************************** ***********
I also dowse...with Garret GTI2500,Pulsestar II,Cscope 1220
and my handmade and very magical Classic III !
Regards folks and sorry on my emotional offset....
I guess i have to change a telephone cable
on my head...it leaks!
..........Huh!....."
:) :) :)
Now back to Dell's latest "bijou" !
I can cleary see what happened infact:
That crocodile,aligator and snake were hungry,but when tried to
have proper lunch, realized that it was not tastefull at all!?
Magic,miracled LRL energy irradiated you Dell, so many times in
the past, so your taste became awful for those animals!!!!:rolleyes:
Lucky for you - empty belly for them ! :(
If not else, at least LRL can save your life somewhen in the
future!:cool:
"....I personally don't adhere to the Chinese pholosphy ....":eek:
Very bad for you! With that kind of attitude you are devoided of
great deal of human wisdom! But that already showed here on this forum,
in your posts....:( :rolleyes:

[Dell Winders]

Robert, it sounds like you are probably far above everyone elses intellectual level for participation in Carl's, Question & Inference game. Participants must feel humbled by your intellectual wisdom. I am in awe. Dell

[Carl-NC]

Carl, if you already know, what's the point, unless you are trying to run a game show here?

If the circuit works, what's the point?

These childish question games you try to play on your viewers appears you are trying to save face and getting desperate for credibility. Dell

I know that electronics is not your forte, but perhaps you could take a shot at what the circuit does*, and who sold it.

- Carl

* "If the circuit works" is relative to what the circuit was supposed to do in the first place... I never stated what it was supposed to do--namely, because I don't know what it was supposed to do--I only asked what it does. If you know what it was supposed to do, then you are free to reply with that information as well, or instead.

[Dell Winders]

Carl, it's just a silly looking drawing with some squiggles and lines.I am not a mind reader, and I have no idea what it means to you, but since this is coming from you,I really don't care. The logical solution would be for you to ask whoever made it what it is for? I can't speak for other people.

I have already voiced my complaint about your repeated questioning in the thread you designated for that purpose, but to no avail. My option will now
be to reply to those who are open minded and unprejudiced, or not reply at all.

There doesn't seem to be much interest among the intellectuals to play your guessing game either, so it looks like you will be left to play with yourself. Enjoy! Dell

[Carl-NC]

The logical solution would be for you to ask whoever made it what it is for? I can't speak for other people.

OK, Dell... what is it for?

[Qiaozhi]

I personally don't adhere to the Chinese pholosphy you spoke of either. I have been bitten in the head and leg by a seven foot alligator, and twice in the hand & arm by an 8 foot asian crocodile. I have had several altercations with large sharks in open water. This does not make me fear alligators, crocodiles and sharks. On the contrary, it provided me first hand opportunities for learning, and respect for their wonderful abilities.

Do you think Carl's allegations, and question & inference game, is a reaction to his having been scammed, and the once bitten, twice shy philosophy? Is he fearful of folks telling the truth? Dell
My intention was only to point out that people usually learn from their mistakes. So, if you get bitten in the head by a crocodile, then you think twice about doing it again. The same is true for LRLs. There are several people on this forum who've had a bad firsthand experience with an LRL. Nothing as dangerous as a crocodile (of course) but not too good for the wallet. In this case they feel scammed, and quite rightly so. As you are well aware, I believe that dowsing and LRLs are complete nonsense, and you believe otherwise. That's fine, and I'm ok with that. It really doesn't bother me in the slightest if someone thinks that a telephone cable wrapped around their head can help them to detect treasure, and good luck to them. As they say - "Even a blind monkey will occassionally find a nut".

All Carl is asking is whether you know what the circuit is supposed to do. As you are not an electronics engineer then you are at a disadvantage in not being able to understand a schematic diagram. As an EE, I can see that this circuit does nothing except flash an LED before shorting out the battery. If it is indeed an LRL device (an this is the implication here) then the only thing this circuit can detect is a lot of dead batteries.

If it's not one of your's, then you do not need to get upset with Carl.

[Dell Winders]

All Carl is asking is whether you know what the circuit is supposed to do. As you are not an electronics engineer then you are at a disadvantage in not being able to understand a schematic diagram.
Qiaozhi, Obviously Carl, is the person who started this guess the drawing game to prove something to fellow EE's to gain support for his judgemental prejudice. Only two people so far have allowed themselves to be suckered in. Now it appears that this implication by inference game you are playing is directed toward Dell, and I have no idea what Carl, or you, are talking about. So, don't even bother trying to con me into to answering questions about a drawing I didn't make, and know nothing about in a game that Carl, created. Direct your lame advice to Carl, not to me.

Carl, claims he owns two products built by me, which he claims publicly as "Garbage". So, according to your rationale, There are several people on this forum who've had a bad firsthand experience with an LRL. So, has Carl, had a bad first hand exxperience with any products he has purchased from me? Is that his reason for making derrogatory inferences and allegations against me, or could there be a more sinister personal agenda?

His rationale for his claims against me is that none of my products have ever passed his, or Randi's, so called challenge test. Although I have repeatedly admitted that me, or the products I build cannot pass his or Randi's test. Yet he persists that I or anyone using my products must pass their test in order to prove to the world they work as I claim, other wise they are free to publicly brand Dell, and his products as a fraud, and his customers as being niave, or liars. I do not accept lightly this form of blackmail, and cover up that is being practiced.

I accept the fact that there are people who share Carl's mentality, and that I am here among some of them, but members of this kangaroo court will eventually have to accept the fact my customers have provided me with absolutely no complaints about the products I have built for them, and that they are made fully aware of the limitations, BEFORE they purchase from me. There is no fraud, or deception on my part, and never has been. Just honesty based on my own field experience.

If any one is running a scam here, it is Carl, not me. It is his game you are playing, not mine. Dell

Sorry, this is Carl's, question & inference game for intellectual players. I don't qualify. I am not a scientific pretender. So far, looks like you are playing by Carl's rules of presumption & assumption substituting guesses for fact.

But since you choose presumption, here's a clue about me that may help you win the game. I don't know anything about electronics, and I can't draw that good. We will just have to wait for little Carl, to finish playing another of his silly little Skeptic cult games, to learn his answer. Good luck,Qiaozhi! Dell
Qiaozhi, I don't share the Skeptic cult philosophy of "guilty by presumption". I don't have Carl's, ability to look at a photograph, or product, and declare it to be garbage, Dowsing, or prejudicely proclaim the manufacturer as a fraud.

From my perspective and the years of attacks on my honesty, Carl, is trying to maintain favor with his peers and is perpetrating his own fraud as a scientific pretender in support of the amazing lieing Randi, and the skeptic cult agenda.]

[Qiaozhi]

Hi Dell,

As far as I recall, no-one has called you a liar or a cheat, or anything similar, although Carl has expressed some personal opinions on your products. Likewise I have read some people slagging off the more (shall we say) traditional detectors from Garrett, Tesoro, Whites, etc., but non of these manufacturers have become irate with these postings. If the circuit has no connection with yourself then I fail to understand why you are so upset. :confused:
You've said youself that you didn't make the drawing and know nothing about it. So I'm confused by your outburst...

[Marv]

It is a head phone tester.:D Ha Ha

[Tim Williams]

Carl I have to say you have my attention!:D

Tim

[Carl-NC]

Well, time to pull back the curtain...

Qiaozhi nailed the first question... I call this a "Rapid Discharge Oscillator." When the pushbutton is pressed, the coil is energized, which puts a dead short across the battery. Due to the internal resistance of the battery and the near-zero resistance of everything else, the battery voltage will drop to zero, releasing the relay, and repeating the cycle.

So the relay will oscillate, and quickly discharge the battery. I measured a couple of 9v alkalines, and the short-circuit current was about 3 amps, so this circuit will discharge one probably in 15-20 minutes. No doubt there is significant arcing on the relay contacts, so this circuit has a real risk of getting welded stuck in the shorted position, and causing a dangerous meltdown of the whole thing.

The headphone jack is where the dowsing rods plug in, so if you simply touch them together, the Rapid Discharge Oscillator is activated.

And Qiaozhi nailed the second question... with a little help from Dell. Yes, this is the little accessory box that was sold by Dell along with one of his LRLs. It was sent to me on loan.

Now, the real question...

"What is the purpose of this circuit?"

That is, of course, a question for Dell. Now I'm sure that when Dell sold this device, he didn't say, "Here's a little black box that makes a cool buzzing sound when you press this button." Instead, it might have been, "Here is a device you plug the dowsing rods into, and when you touch them together, it does such-and-such."

It is the such-and-such I'm interested in.

Dell, is this device garbage, or does it serve a Useful Purpose?

- Carl

[Dell Winders]

When you field tested the unit, did you experience a mild shock, or tingling in your hands when you walked through the "field" of the signal line leading to the target? Dell

[Qiaozhi]

When you field tested the unit, did you experience a mild shock, or tingling in your hands when you walked through the "field" of the signal line leading to the target? Dell
Ah! Now I see what plugs into the jack socket, it begins to make some "sense".
It provides the dowser with a kinaesthetic response when the rods cross over and touch. I suppose it does enable you to look where your going instead of staring at the rods. Saves accidently walking into a crocodile (sorry - couldn't resist it!) :D

[Jim]

I guess the loser in this “game” is the poor bloke who gave up his hard earned cash for this gizmo

[Carl-NC]

When you field tested the unit, did you experience a mild shock, or tingling in your hands when you walked through the "field" of the signal line leading to the target? Dell

No, not at all.

[Carl-NC]

Ah! Now I see what plugs into the jack socket, it begins to make some "sense".
It provides the dowser with a kinaesthetic response when the rods cross over and touch. I suppose it does enable you to look where your going instead of staring at the rods. Saves accidently walking into a crocodile (sorry - couldn't resist it!) :D

Could be the purpose, but a later incarnation of this circuit, the "Magnetic Wave Guide Receiver" (see the VR800 report (http://www.thunting.com/cgi-bin/geotech/pages/common/index.pl?page=lrl&file=reports/vr800/index.dat)), has no buzzer. An LED lights up when you touch the rods together. I guess you could strap it over one eye...

- Carl

[Dell Winders]

Originally Posted by Dell Winders
The logical solution would be for you to ask whoever made it what it is for? I can't speak for other people.

OK, Dell... what is it for?

Carl, according to your description of the device, I am not the manufacturer. It would be dishonest of me to accept credit.

But, for you to intentionally infer that I am the manufacturer is to lie.

I see by the mocking that a few others share your mentality for promoting deceptions to keep you from having to apologize. Dell

[ivconic]

:p
* But those two i..... are less i..... than buyers of LRL's,*
* because they saved money, at least!(telephone cable and *
* stupid plant are not expensive). *
The main point is not to waste money on frauds!
Dell i'll be very sorry if you understand me wrong....I am not claiming that you
are fraud.....at all! We all trying to survive these hard times, earn some money....If we all closer i'll call all of you to some pub and have beer with you!
rergards:)

[Qiaozhi]

:p
If we all closer i'll call all of you to some pub and have beer with you!
rergards:)
Sounds good to me. :)
But I don't want that beer with the chilli pepper in it. ;)
Some real ale would be better, or even Qing Dao (Tsingdao) pijiu! :D

[ivconic]

:)
I rather prefer Guiness....although Heineken and Bud can do a job as well!
Afer that final match France-Italy....all i need is packet of very cold beer...
the hell with detectors and nuts!
regards
:)

[Dell Winders]

Dell i'll be very sorry if you understand me wrong....I am not claiming that you are fraud Ivconic, I appreciate your clarifying that. Thank You! It is the motive and and agenda of my Skeptic cult accusers that is questionable.

I don't drink, but I would be proud to come to the pub and shake your hand.. My kindest regards to you. Dell

[Carl-NC]

Originally Posted by Dell Winders
The logical solution would be for you to ask whoever made it what it is for? I can't speak for other people.

OK, Dell... what is it for?

Carl, according to your description of the device, I am not the manufacturer. It would be dishonest of me to accept credit.

But, for you to intentionally infer that I am the manufacturer is to lie.

Your normal modus operandi is to blame someone else for everything... maybe that electrical engineer you paid $40/hour. I do know for a fact that you sold this particular device, so if you don't have the moral fortitude to stand up and take responsibility for horrendous piece of junk, then this will be no surprise.

I see by the mocking that a few others share your mentality for promoting deceptions to keep you from having to apologize. Dell

What do I need to apologize for? I said the stuff you sell is garbage... it's true.

- Carl

[Dell Winders]

Carl, this is what you now say you said
What do I need to apologize for? I said the stuff you sell is garbage... it's true.- Carl
Carl, this is what you said. There is a difference between the responsibilities of a manufacturer that makes products, and an independent dealer who just sells products.
It was not an inference, Dell... you make garbage products. - Carl
Look at yourself, Carl. You are a habitual liar. You make up one lie to cover another.
Let me repeat, I did not, and do not build, or manufacture the products you are claiming I do. That is a flat out lie.

Your saying that I sold the product does make it true either, but if I did, let the person who purchased it from me come forward with their complaint, if they have one, and let's see if it can be resolved. My phone number is 863 422-5454. I live in Haines City, Florida, for the past 25 years so there has never been a concern for any customer with a problem to contact me.

When was this product puschased from me, by who, and what is the model & serial #?

O.K, Carl, you accuse me of making garbage, and selling a horrendus piece of junk. No customers have ever informed me of that. That's strictly your personal opinion, not a fact, and should be presented honestly as being only your personal opinion, least it may appear that you are hell bent on slander, and giving folks an inaccurate impression about me.

I was a White's metal detector dealer, and sold metal detectors manufactured by Whites. I sold underwater PI detectors manufactured by ELSEC,in England. I had the distributorship for the USA & Canada, for Radar Systems, inc, and sold ZOND Ground Pentrating Radar, manufactured by Radar Systems, Inc. I also sold Frequency Discrimination Locators, manufactured by Vernell, Inc. I even tried to sell Fuller Brush products. My name is also on a computer brand. But you know something, Carl Moreland, is one of only (my considered opinion) 3 skeptic cult idiots in the world who insist that Dell Winders, be held responsible for those products I have sold which were manufactured, and warranted by another company. If that is considered rational thinking for any business by any one viewing, or participating in these forums, I may have mistakenly entered the door to a Carl's Geotech looney bin.

Folks, I don't know of any independent dealer anywhere that is responsible for the content of a manufacturers product. I'm not sure what was meant bynot having moral fortitude, but if If any of you believe it is immoral of me to personally pay the cost of shipping & repair of manufacturers products long after the customers factory warranties had expired, then it is a matter of record that I am immoral.

If any of you believe it is immoral for me to tell any of my customers that if they aren't satisfied with my product after they have tried it, to send it back for a full refund, then it is a matter of record that I am immoral.

If any of you believe it is immoral for me to honestly inform customers about the limitations of the products I build & sell, before they purchase, then it is a matter of record that I am immoral.

If any of you believe it is immoral for me to have spent countless years of my time to personally instruct hundreds of LRL purchasers of all manufacture, and share my field experience to help them get the most benefit from their purchase, with never a fee, or obligation, then it is a matter of record that I am immoral.

Thank goodness everyone in this world is not consumed by prejudice and ego driven as Carl, appears to be.

"THE DOOR TO KNOWLEDGE & UNDERSTANDING IS NEVER OPEN TO A CLOSED OR PREJUDICED MIND" Dell http://thunting.com/geotech/forums/images/icons/icon14.gif

[Qiaozhi]

Regardless of anyone's opinions of dowsing or LRLs I can understand that the purpose of this little circuit is to provide some tactile feedback to the dowser when the rods cross and touch each other. In fact, I would expect the user to receive a small electrical stimulus as the magnetic field in the relay collapses, assuming the handles of the rods are not insulated.

However, even the most amateurish electronics engineer can readily see that this circuit as it stands is not a good implementation, and hence Carl's comment that it was "crap". Any design that shorts out the battery as part of it's operation is not a good design, unless it's purpose is to discharge the battery, which (in this case) presumably was not the intention. An alternative method I can think of would be to use a vibrating mechanism, similar to those found in mobile phones or video game controllers. Personally I wouldn't be too keen to use a device that would give me the shock treatment. It would be a bit like Chinese water torture, as you wouldn't know when the next shock was coming. :)

[Esteban]

I try all!!!

Qiaozhi, you mention a vibrating mechanism. Some years ago I had the fix idea of making a vibrating LRL I can "eliminate" in part the famous "ideomotor effect". So, I decide to put a minimotor inside a LRL rod, wich actuates as vibratory mechanism. See the image.

A day, in "normal circumstance" (motor in off) don't obtain any movement of the rod. But battery key in on, a small movement was produced 10-15 seconds after and the antenna signalize a site (the landlord said me that another person with LRL rods don't obtain "signal" in his patio). I walk 15 meters and the rod turns back in X site. Check the site with my Bounty Hunter and found at 15 cm depth an old copper buckle, exactly in the point the rod turns. Coincidence? This is my "solution" for all us!!! :D

[Dell Winders]

Regardless of anyone's opinions of dowsing or LRLs I can understand that the purpose of this little circuit is to provide some tactile feedback to the dowser when the rods cross and touch each other. In fact, I would expect the user to receive a small electrical stimulus as the magnetic field in the relay collapses, assuming the handles of the rods are not insulated.
Qiaozhi, I already asked, Carl. Apparently that is not the reason. Dell

Originally Posted by Dell Winders
When you field tested the unit, did you experience a mild shock, or tingling in your hands when you walked through the "field" of the signal line leading to the target? Dell

No, not at all. - Carl

[Carl-NC]

Folks, I don't know of any independent dealer anywhere that is responsible for the content of a manufacturers product.

My comments concern the LRLs you sell under your own name, not White's metal detectors, or Zond GPR, or even Vernell's garbage. If I open up a White's metal detector, and discover a relay that intentionally shorts out the battery, then I will blame White's, not the dealer.

So are you, or are you not, responsible for the LRLs sold with the label "Dell Systems" on them?

[Carl-NC]

In fact, I would expect the user to receive a small electrical stimulus as the magnetic field in the relay collapses, assuming the handles of the rods are not insulated.

The handles are mostly insulated, but you still won't get a zap, since all the current will flow through the rods and not your hands. You are merely touching both sides of a dead short.

[Carl-NC]

Here is a pic of the L-rods along with the black box that contains the Rapid Discharge Oscillator. A piece of lamp cord with an audio connector plugs into a jack on the black box. Also shown are the ground probes made from PVC, brass rods, and lamp cord. See the VR800 report (http://www.thunting.com/cgi-bin/geotech/pages/common/index.pl?page=lrl&file=reports/vr800/index.dat) for a closer look at the L-rods & the probes.

[Dell Winders]

Carl, I see you are finally showing what your deception game is about. How many ways and how many more years are you going to keep rehashing your outdated reports to try to get people to believe the skeptic Cult lies degrading my honesty and integrity?

So are you, or are you not, responsible for the LRLs sold with the label "Dell Systems" on them?] Not, for the content, if I am not the manufacturer. I've already said that.

Boy, that product is old. Do the parts still work?
Carl, The VR-800 has a white label on the back that provides the name of the manufacturer, Vernell, inc. Did you miss seeing that in all these years?

The name Dell Systems, is also used by Dell computers. They won't accept responsibility for the content of products manufactured by another company either.

I do accept dealer responsibility, If, the customer purchased the product from me? Dell

[Qiaozhi]

The handles are mostly insulated, but you still won't get a zap, since all the current will flow through the rods and not your hands. You are merely touching both sides of a dead short.
Hi Carl,

OK - I can see from the photo that the handles are insulated. However, even if they were not I would expect to receive a small shock, as I doubt the rods are creating a perfect short. Have you tried holding the metal of the rods and touching lightly together?

[Qiaozhi]

I try all!!!

Qiaozhi, you mention a vibrating mechanism. Some years ago I had the fix idea of making a vibrating LRL I can "eliminate" in part the famous "ideomotor effect". So, I decide to put a minimotor inside a LRL rod, wich actuates as vibratory mechanism. See the image.

A day, in "normal circumstance" (motor in off) don't obtain any movement of the rod. But battery key in on, a small movement was produced 10-15 seconds after and the antenna signalize a site (the landlord said me that another person with LRL rods don't obtain "signal" in his patio). I walk 15 meters and the rod turns back in X site. Check the site with my Bounty Hunter and found at 15 cm depth an old copper buckle, exactly in the point the rod turns. Coincidence? This is my "solution" for all us!!! :D
Hi Esteban,

That's it! Don't you agree it's a much better solution than shorting out the battery? :D
Apart from the buckle, how many other items have you suceessfully detected?

[Dell Winders]

Qiaozhi, when folks use Rods to meter a "field" they try not to touch them together. Does that make sense?

If I remember correctly, the VR-800 instructions clearly state that it will short the battery if the rods touch while they are plugged into the belt unit. I'm Sorry you weren't informed. Dell

[Carl-NC]

Carl, The VR-800 has a white label on the back that provides the name of the manufacturer, Vernell, inc. Did you miss seeing that in all these years?

Oh no, I saw the label... pictured below*. Funny, it only says "Dell Omnitron", nothing about Vernell.

The name Dell Systems, is also used by Dell computers. They won't accept responsibility for the content of products manufactured by another company either.

Really? Are you sure? Most of the components they use to build computers are manufactured by other companies. It's been my experience that if a component goes bad and it's under warranty, Dell will replace it, even though they did not manufacture it.

- Carl

* This is not the VR800 I own, which also says "Dell Omnitron" on the label. I've removed the model # & serial # info, as the owner wishes to remain anonymous.

[Carl-NC]

Have you tried holding the metal of the rods and touching lightly together?

Don't recall whether I touched them lightly or not... probably did at one time or another... just got buzzing from the relay, no electrical sensation at all.

The device has been returned to its owner, so I would have to build one to do any further testing.

- Carl

[Seeker]

[quote=Esteban]I try all!!!

Hi Esteban,
I will try to build your construction and check how it work.
So, can I use for motor a little vibration module from GSM unit and for better turning of rod a little ball-bearing from PC harddisc(diameter 10mm)? For rod I will use telescopic antenna about 400mm.In this case I need only 1 battery 1,5V.
The handle will be Al.tube,80mm long,diameter 30mm.
What mast be frequency and amplitude of vibrations?

[Esteban]

Qiaozhi:

For me is more economic this motor arrangament than other showed here. The motor works when you press (all the moment of the "detection") the momentary switch, so is an economic option.

As the "theory" refers the LRL rods works via nervous system, so this vibrational movement produces some effect???

Another items was a nickel-copper coin from Argentina and a small silver cilinder (don't know piece of what it is). And this item I found where a "professional" dowser only found in same area dirty piece of bronze, rest.

I stop because don't have patience with it. I prefer experiment in electronic long range locator (really medium range).

[Esteban]

Seeker:

I use a simple tape record motor, think is 3,000 rpm. Is important that the case od the motor be in contact with the tube for to transmit the vibration to the hand. I use PVC tube as handle. I use two bearing-balls and for to center better the rod. See the drawing. Also you can build LRL rod by Carl here:

http://www.thunting.com/cgi-bin/geotech/pages/common/index.pl?page=lrl&file=/projects/lrl1/index.dat

[Qiaozhi]

Qiaozhi, when folks use Rods to meter a "field" they try not to touch them together. Does that make sense?

If I remember correctly, the VR-800 instructions clearly state that it will short the battery if the rods touch while they are plugged into the belt unit. I'm Sorry you weren't informed. Dell
If the rods do not actually touch, then I fail to understand the purpose of this circuit. :(
For anything to happen at all, you would need to hold down the red button on the unit, otherwise ... basically - nothing. :confused:
Also - pressing down the red button lights the LED before shorting out the battery, and then repeating this cycle until the battery is discharged.
So what is it supposed to do?????
Doesn't make any sense to me.

[Seeker]

[quote=Esteban]Seeker:

I use a simple tape record motor, think is 3,000 rpm

Hi,Esteban, do you place on axis of motor some eccentric mass to get vibration or there is normal motor self vibration?
In 3000rpm you have giroscopic moment exept vibration,that will move your hand and turn the rod.This is "motor effect" :)
To get purely vibration I think to use little speaker(piezo) and 555, and I can change frequency and amplitude of vibration.

[Qiaozhi]

Dell Winders
Qiaozhi, when folks use Rods to meter a "field" they try not to touch them together. Does that make sense?

If I remember correctly, the VR-800 instructions clearly state that it will short the battery if the rods touch while they are plugged into the belt unit. I'm Sorry you weren't informed. Dell
If the rods do not actually touch, then I fail to understand the purpose of this circuit. :(
For anything to happen at all, you would need to hold down the red button on the unit, otherwise ... basically - nothing. :confused:
Also - pressing down the red button lights the LED before shorting out the battery, and then repeating this cycle until the battery is discharged.
So what is it supposed to do?????
Doesn't make any sense to me.
OK - I've thought about this a bit more, and now I'm certain this is a really stupid circuit. :mad:
If (as Dell states above) the VR-800 instructions clearly state that it will short the battery if the rods touch - then why the hell are they connected across the switch????? :confused:
If they're not allowed to touch, then absolutely nothing happens. However, previously Dell asked Carl:
When you field tested the unit, did you experience a mild shock, or tingling in your hands when you walked through the "field" of the signal line leading to the target? Dell
This could only happen if these two points are true:
1. The rods are allowed to touch. (Carl correctly states that, as you are actually touching both sides of a dead short, you would not "feel" the back emf from the relay coil. Although I'm not certain you wouldn't get a slight shock because the connection is not a perfect short.
2. The handles must not be insulated.
Since the former is a no-no (according the manual) and the latter is untrue, then..... I don't know what to say. :eek:
Sorry Dell (and I understand quite clearly that you are not the designer) but it does appear to be "crap" after all.

[Qiaozhi]

[quote=Esteban]Seeker:

I use a simple tape record motor, think is 3,000 rpm

Hi,Esteban, do you place on axis of motor some eccentric mass to get vibration or there is normal motor self vibration?
In 3000rpm you have giroscopic moment exept vibration,that will move your hand and turn the rod.This is "motor effect" :)
To get purely vibration I think to use little speaker(piezo) and 555, and I can change frequency and amplitude of vibration.
Hi Seeker,
If you look closely at Esteban's drawing, you will notice that the motor is in a vertical position. In this case the device can be moved quite easily from side-to-side without feeling the gyroscopic effect. Of course, if you tilt the rods away from the vertical, then they would feel some resistance. So the important point here is that the motor must be vertical and not horizontal, otherwise your statement would be true.

[Seeker]

Hi Qiaozhi,you are not right.
Exact the vertical position of axis is the best position for act of giroscopic moment.Becouse the rod is not balansed if you little turn hand ,giro reaction will turn at 90 degrees direction and axis will divert and center of mass of rod will turn rod left or right.

[Esteban]

Hi Seeker, Qiaozhi and all:

When I decide to put a motor inside the handle of the rod I don't think in any correction of the tendence to change the rpm in the motor causes by the inclination angle. I only thing in a kind of vibration (really soft) in my hand and what happens with this.:D

[Seeker]

Hi Esteban,
some good things, people find accidentally :)
Do you know something about bifurcation?
When you insert vibration in system hand-rod , you increase sensitivity of all system.
I think if you replace motor with tuning generator and piezospeaker ,you will reach better results. Do you need schematic ?

[Esteban]

Hi Esteban,
some good things, people find accidentally :)
Do you know something about bifurcation?
When you insert vibration in system hand-rod , you increase sensitivity of all system.
I think if you replace motor with tuning generator and piezospeaker ,you will reach better results. Do you need schematic ?


Hope a simple 555 is useful in your interesting suggestion, maybe connecting to a LM386 with volume control. Or you know a specific schematic for this purpose?

No, accidentally, have a fix idea in it. :)

[Dell Winders]

Sorry Dell (and I understand quite clearly that you are not the designer) but it does appear to be "crap" after all.

Sorry Qiaozhi, I don't speak, or understand EE language, and as an outsider, I had a different impression of what "crap" was supposed to look like.

No, I am not the designer, or manufacturer of items in the photo Carl, has displayed, and creditited me for. Scientist I know, don't form conclusions based on presumption, assumption, stupid inference/ implication games, or money challenge publicity scams. EE's posting here would do well to research & test before jumping to inferences or conclusions. and practice forming conclusions based on fact, least, they reveal themselves as practicioners of pretend science.

Fact, can only be based on each individuals knowledge and true personal experience. If you have not made the effort to learn what others have already learned, through your own trial & error, or shared the same experience that others have reported, then you do not have the facts to base any conclusions whatsoever on.

Carl's prejudice, and childish inference games do not necessarily have any basis in truth, or fact, as he has already amply demonstrated. Qiaozhi, so far you "appear" to be Parroting Carl? At first I thought you were unwittingly suckered into his idiotic Inference & Implication game. That benefit of a doubt is subsiding. I hope you prove more intelligent than to publicly practice the pseudo science of spectulative judgement. Dell

[Seeker]

Hope a simple 555 is useful in your interesting suggestion, maybe connecting to a LM386 with volume control. Or you know a specific schematic for this purpose?

No, accidentally, have a fix idea in it. :)

Hi Esteban,
Look at the picture.I think you don't need in LM386 and volume control for beginning.
If you want it , insert only Pot. 5k between piezo and pin3.
Frequency you can calculate.Example for motor 3000rpm = 50Hz , C=4700nF and a little adjust with pot.100k.By pot.100k you can change frequecy (C=4700nF) from 31 to 3100Hz
Piezo mast remaking. Use epoxi glue to fix a nut M2 at brass side of disc, in centrum.Be careful when solder the wires to piezo.This process mast be short , to avoid overheat of piezo. If you use SMD elements, PCB will be in diameter as piezo.
This is all.
Good Luck.

[Qiaozhi]

Hi Qiaozhi,you are not right.
Exact the vertical position of axis is the best position for act of giroscopic moment.Becouse the rod is not balansed if you little turn hand ,giro reaction will turn at 90 degrees direction and axis will divert and center of mass of rod will turn rod left or right.
Maybe we are talking at cross purposes here, but the motor must be in the vertical position (as shown by Esteban) otherwise you will experience some precession of the gyroscope. In the vertical position the user can freely move the device forwards, backwards, up, down and from side to side without precession occuring. This will not be the case if the users twists the motor in his hand to an angle away from the vertical. However, if you position the motor horizontally, then moving the device from left to right will cause the motor (gyro) to precess. Try it, if you don't believe me. :)

[Qiaozhi]

Sorry Qiaozhi, I don't speak, or understand EE language, and as an outsider, I had a different impression of what "crap" was supposed to look like.

No, I am not the designer, or manufacturer of items in the photo Carl, has displayed, and creditited me for. Scientist I know, don't form conclusions based on presumption, assumption, stupid inference/ implication games, or money challenge publicity scams. EE's posting here would do well to research & test before jumping to inferences or conclusions. and practice forming conclusions based on fact, least, they reveal themselves as practicioners of pretend science.

Fact, can only be based on each individuals knowledge and true personal experience. If you have not made the effort to learn what others have already learned, through your own trial & error, or shared the same experience that others have reported, then you do not have the facts to base any conclusions whatsoever on.

Carl's prejudice, and childish inference games do not necessarily have any basis in truth, or fact, as he has already amply demonstrated. Qiaozhi, so far you "appear" to be Parroting Carl? At first I thought you were unwittingly suckered into his idiotic Inference & Implication game. That benefit of a doubt is subsiding. I hope you prove more intelligent than to publicly practice the pseudo science of spectulative judgement. Dell
I don't think there is any presumption, inference or parroting going on here. This simple circuit has clearly been "designed" (or perhaps that's the wrong word :rolleyes: ) by someone with little knowledge of electronics. No presumption or guesswork is needed to clearly see that it is a "crap" design. It doesn't appear to have any useful function, apart from discharging the battery.
Anyway I still fail to understand why you are so upset about a circuit that, as you said:No, I am not the designer, or manufacturer of items in the photo Carl, has displayed, and creditited me for.
I am beginning to think there is a closer connection than you wish to reveal. :confused:
Also, I do not comprehend your references to "pretend science" and "pseudo science" when refering to either Carl, myself, or other EEs on this forum, as I believed that was more in your domain. :p

[Dell Winders]

I am beginning to think there is a closer connection than you wish to reveal. :confused: See, there you go publicly making presumption, and inference, just like, Carl. No fact, No Science!
Also, I do not comprehend your references to "pretend science" and "pseudo science" when refering to either Carl, myself, or other EEs on this forum, as I believed that was more in your domain. :p Carl, has spoken authoritively of things he does not know and has never experieced for himself as being truth, or fact.

Qiaozhi,I do not lie or pretend. I am what I am.
A Kentucky Hillbilly, with a 6th grade formal education in country schools. Sometimes there was one room with only one teacher who taught all grades 1 thru 8. The subjects were the 3 R's, Read'in, Rite'in and Rithmetic, and above all, honesty, which at one time was an atribute which was respected, but obviously not here. I have no ego to get in the way of the truth, so laugh if you must. Dell

[Seeker]

Hi Qiaozhi,
we speak about different things - controlled and non-contolled movement.Take a brimful cup with water and walk around.When you make turns ,you think about water and take care,make turns slow under control,known about giro-reaction,but when walk ahead your attention is on the road.Then the hand make a little non-controlled turns ,what is "ideomotor movement", the giroscopic reaction of vertical axis can precess in two vertical plane.If the axis is horizontal, accross your direction ahead,left or right turns of arm precess the axis in vertical plane of rod.But turns in another vertical plane will be without precession.
Ofcourse, on diagram of Esteban,we can add a buzzer with sensor to control of inclinations of axis :)
Or put all dowsing rod in float and walk around with wash-basin, like ancient Chinese compass :D

Best regards

[Carl-NC]

I am beginning to think there is a closer connection than you wish to reveal.

A few years ago, an interesting individual, posting on TNet under the name "Toto," wrote about The Parable of Player #27. During a particular play in a football game, the referee threw a penalty flag. Before the ref could even reveal the nature of the infraction, must less the guilty party, player #27 ran up to the ref pleading, "I didn't do it! It wasn't me!" Player #27 was called for holding.

Likewise, as soon as I posted the Rapid Discharge Oscillator, Dell ran out pleading, "I didn't do it! It's not my fault!" Like Player #27, Dell implicated himself as the guilty party... I didn't need to say a word.

Dell, you sure don't seem to be too proud of the equipment you've sold over the years. Every time something of yours gets brought up, you do everything possible to distance yourself from the device, try to blame it on other people, and even attack the person who brought it up. Why is that? Why don't you just say, "Hey, I recognize that... I used to sell them, and here's what it does..."?

Which brings up a prior question... "Is this device garbage, or does it serve a Useful Purpose?" If it serves a Useful Purpose, what is it? Another way of asking the same question is: "When you sold this device, what did you tell the buyer it was supposed to do?"

- Carl

[Qiaozhi]

Hi Qiaozhi,
we speak about different things - controlled and non-contolled movement.Take a brimful cup with water and walk around.When you make turns ,you think about water and take care,make turns slow under control,known about giro-reaction,but when walk ahead your attention is on the road.Then the hand make a little non-controlled turns ,what is "ideomotor movement", the giroscopic reaction of vertical axis can precess in two vertical plane.If the axis is horizontal, accross your direction ahead,left or right turns of arm precess the axis in vertical plane of rod.But turns in another vertical plane will be without precession.
Ofcourse, on diagram of Esteban,we can add a buzzer with sensor to control of inclinations of axis :)
Or put all dowsing rod in float and walk around with wash-basin, like ancient Chinese compass :D
Best regards
Hi Seeker.
OK - I see what your getting at. We were indeed talking at cross purposes.
I totally agree that the "ideomotor movement" could cause some precession to occur. As you are probably aware, I am not a fan of this dowsing and LRL stuff, but I'm always in favour of experimentation. :)

[Qiaozhi]

A few years ago, an interesting individual, posting on TNet under the name "Toto," wrote about The Parable of Player #27. During a particular play in a football game, the referee threw a penalty flag. Before the ref could even reveal the nature of the infraction, must less the guilty party, player #27 ran up to the ref pleading, "I didn't do it! It wasn't me!" Player #27 was called for holding.

Likewise, as soon as I posted the Rapid Discharge Oscillator, Dell ran out pleading, "I didn't do it! It's not my fault!" Like Player #27, Dell implicated himself as the guilty party... I didn't need to say a word.

Dell, you sure don't seem to be too proud of the equipment you've sold over the years. Every time something of yours gets brought up, you do everything possible to distance yourself from the device, try to blame it on other people, and even attack the person who brought it up. Why is that? Why don't you just say, "Hey, I recognize that... I used to sell them, and here's what it does..."?

Which brings up a prior question... "Is this device garbage, or does it serve a Useful Purpose?" If it serves a Useful Purpose, what is it? Another way of asking the same question is: "When you sold this device, what did you tell the buyer it was supposed to do?"

- Carl
I like this analogy. :)
Perhaps this thread should have been called "The Winders Windup". :D

[J_Player]

This appears to be a very useful circuit to me. Are you aware that certain kinds of batteries should be fully discharged before recharging them for another day of finding amazing treasures? Yup it's true! This circuit is obviously designed to discharge a nicad pack so you will get uniform recharging. Yessiree! if you got this cutting edge circuit built into yer lrl, then you can be the first on yer continent to get a truly good recharge on yer nicads, and continue to find maximum treasures of untold wealth! don't leave home without it!

[J_Player]

.

[Boattow]

because I could have cleared it up right off the bat. Why? Because when I first got interested in treasure hunting early on, I tried one of Dell's machines. I grabbed the rods and it shocked the crap out of me. That was the final straw. I opened up the unit and found a 555 mounted on a piece of perf board and the circuit you showed in the "reciever". The whole thing was hot glued to the bottom of the case. $40/hour??!! You got ripped off.:mad:

It was described as a MFD putting out 3 frequencies. I knew that this was false because a 555 doesn't put out 3 frequencies and no other electronics were present to make this happen. It was also advertised that 6 elements were "Programmed in the microprocessor". There was no processor and the only programming were 6 resistors to change the frequency.:rolleyes: Thankfully I had an honest dealer who heard what I had to say and he let me send it back in trade for a magnetometer.:D
Boattow

[Dell Winders]

Thankfully I had an honest dealer who heard what I had to say and he let me send it back in trade for a magnetometer.:D

Boattow, I have no record of an exchange for a Magnetometer. Apparently, the product was not manufactured by me, nor did you purchase the product from me? Dell

[Boattow]

I did not buy it from you. I believe there were at least one other dealer selling your units all those years ago.

When this occured, I emailed you about all these things and you didn't deny any of it, you stated that this was accurate and acted like that was OK...nothing wrong with saying it had a microprocessor when it didn't, using such amateur building techniques, and shocking the crap out of your customers.

You are correct, it was not manufactured by you. You have stated many times over the years that you don't manufacture the items you sell. I always thought you had said Vernon Rose built your units but I recently learned you pay an EE $40 an hour to build your stuff.

Quite honestly, when I confronted you about it all those years ago, I expected you to say something like the guts were not yours and must have been changed out or tampered with but you didn't say anything like that. You acted like what I was stating was exactly what is in your product and that there was nothing wrong with that. Luckily for me the company that I bought it from let me return it and credit me towards an exchange for a magnetometer.

I'm not trying to discredit you. I'm only stating fact. I just find it odd that you are back peddling on this now that we are in an open forum. If you indeed have records like that, then you should be able to go through your old emails and figure out who I am.

I'm also not saying that LRL's do or do not work. I haven't made up my mind on that one yet. I know that scientifically there is every reason why they shouldn't work but on the other hand I have seen some amazing things with LRLs. Finally, I don't always agree with Carl or his tactics. I just think when you argue with Carl, you lose.
Boattow

[Dell Winders]

Boattow, thank you for your honesty and clarification. Those records are in storage, supplying a meal for the bugs we have in Florida. I'm sorry, but it would require a lot of time and paper sorting for me to recognize who you are.

I started as a distributor for Vernon's products, and later continued as a dealer. I have never denied , or tried to hide the fact that the workmanship on the Vernon's VR series wasn't very pretty. But, I always obtained good results from my own field use with his products, and my customers reported the same results, so I can't fault his circuit as not working, no matter what componnents he used. I even added my personal backup to his factory warranty.

Actually, I had received 8 or 10 calls from VR customers telling me they would receive a mild shock when the Rods would cross on a signal line. I asked if the shock came when they touched the Rods together, and they reported it happened when they crossed the target signal line and the rods were not touching together. Most seemed to be pleased with this physical reaction to the target Signal line and thought it was a great feature.

Personally, I had never experienced a shock, or a tingle from the rods so I was unaware this could happen. After the customer reports, I was concerned about the possible liability of a person with a pacemaker, other medical device, or using the instrument while wet, and I informed Vernon, that I was not going to risk that chance. Vernon installed a breaker in the belt units and that seemed to eliminate the shock hazard, but I did continue to add a Shock hazard warning, just in case.

I'm glad you gave me the opportunity to shed some light on the situation. When Carl, started his silly, name the drawing game, I had no idea what he was alluding to, but it had the inference of an entrapment scam, which turned out to be the case.

Thanks again! Dell

[Wirechief]

I just tuned into this thread but do I understand that this circuit is in a Dell device ?

John Tomlinson, CET

[Carl-NC]

So far, Dell has not been proud enough of this technological masterpiece to step forward and take responsibility... instead, he keeps blaming other people. But the fellow who sent it to me, bought it from Dell, and indeed, it had "Dell Omnitron" written on it.

[Wirechief]

Hi Carl, I have been trying to give him the benefit of the doubt(I have never believed these devices do what they say) but I now know why he didn't answer my question as to why a couple of bent pieces of wires called rods command a price of 300.00 ! Chris's description of these guys(wallet miners) is very accurate wouldn't you say Carl ? Shame on you Dell ! CU later Carl.

John Tomlinson, CET
John's Detectors

[Dell Winders]

The Skeptic cult continues to resort to trickery, deception, untruths, inferences and the spreading of malicious rumours against Dell Winders. This effort has been evidenced more than once on this website

In another attempt to defend and protect my llife long reputation of honesty & integrity, which is being attacked, I'm stating for the record that I am NOT the manufacturer of ANY products that have been on the market prior to 1999.

Hi Carl, I have been trying to give him the benefit of the doubt(I have never believed these devices do what they say) but I now know why he didn't answer my question as to why a couple of bent pieces of wires called rods command a price of 300.00 ! Chris's description of these guys(wallet miners) is very accurate wouldn't you say Carl ? Shame on you Dell !

CU later Carl.

John Tomlinson, CET
John's Detectors

There are NO "bent pieces of wire called Rods" for sale on my website for $300, and never have been. http://www.omnitron.net

SHAME on you for intentionally creating and spreading lies about me, John Tomlinson. I'm sure Carl, Chris, and the rest of the Skeptic Cult, are very proud of you for joining their cause, and proving your worth.

"THE DOOR TO KNOWLEDGE & UNDERSTANDING IS NEVER OPEN TO A CLOSED, OR PREJUDICED MIND". Dell Winders