Ivconic's Negative Ion Detector circuit

[J_Player]

This thread is about the Negative Ion Detector circuit schematic that Ivconic posted. This circuit is re-posted below, and I have restated some of the significant statements about this circuit made by forum contributors. There is enough information in these pages to build a working model based on Ivconic's circuit, as well as to make modifications to the circuitry for enhanced performance.

Some important features that make this machine different from some other LRLs are that it is one of the few LRL designs I have seen that uses no "bait charge" or sealed chambers, while using an electronic circuit that is designed to sense and amplify a signal using standard electronic circuits and principles. I see no place where there are wires terminating on surplus or non-working circuit boards, and there are no circuit components not electrically connected, and only glued together.

I am totally ignorant of how detecting negative ions can help anyone locate distant buried treasures. But I can discern what the apparent purpose of the components in these circuit diagrams are. What I have to say about this device is based only on my rudimentary understanding of conventional electronic circuits and the known physical laws of energy and matter. There may be much more to the principles of how this machine works, unknown to me or other scientifically minded persons educated in the classical method of understanding the world around us. Therefore I make no claims as to how this device may work or not work for locating remote treasures. The following is only my understanding of what I would expect to measure with this machine:

It appears to me that if this machine is properly adjusted, you may expect negative airborne ions in the general vicinity of the dish will be attracted to the dish. And upon contacting the dish, some of them will become neutral. This should also be true of negatively charged dust and aerosol particles suspended in the air around the dish, which may end up becoming a thin film of dust on the dish. At the moment that any negativly charged particle contacts the dish, there will probably be a minute pulse of electricity accumulated on the antenna (or maybe not, depending on how well the circuitry works). I imagine that any minute charge on the antenna would be induced my the electrical or (indirectly) by the magnetic properties of the charged particle changing from a positive to a neutral charge. I presume sub-atomic particle and wave theory is involved in explaining the energy coupling to the antenna. In any case the amount of signal that appears on the antenna is extremely minute, and it would take a lot of ions collected to become measurable. Assuming that the negatively charged particles are being neutralized by the dish in a non-uniform pattern as the dish is moved around, then the amount of charge sensed on the antenna would vary depending on where the dish is moved, and on the composition of the air around the dish. ie: if you move the dish close to an ion source (like a high voitage air purifier, or a flame or other source of negative ions), then the amount of signal will be different than from the previous location. The minute variation in signal is sensed and amplified so it can be seen on a meter or heard from the speaker. The circuitry also has 3 adjustments which allow the user to adjust the output to a null point with a high degree of percision in a widely varying environment of local airborne ions.

As far as I can tell, this device is measuring the the antenna's reaction to the concentration of charged particles in the nearby vicinity of the dish (nearby meaning within a foot or less). If there is some mechanism by which remote treasures are being located, I am totally ignorant of that mechanism.

I welcome any explanations from experienced users of LRLs about how this machine works, and any corrections in the theories that perhaps I am ignorant of. So far I have heard a number of conflicting explanations from different proponents of LRLs. I will have no arguments against any theory, but I may have some questions if I hear explanations that I can't understand. (I already heard the theory that these devices are used soley for detecting gravity and seperating a buyer from his money. No need to elaborate on that, because I understand that principle complely).

The following post after this is Ivconic's circuit and my commentary on the components of the circuitry.

[J_Player]

The Circuit below is what Ivconic posted as a "working LRL". Since it has some standard electronic circuitry, I will give a brief overview for those who are interested. Keep in mind I am not an electronic technician, and I may make some errors.

The basic purpose of the circuitry is to charge the dish positively, and sense minute electrical variations that are picked up on the antenna. The electrical variations sensed on the antenna are amplified and sent directly to the speaker. This means you can hear only variations in the audio range that are sensed on the antenna. The meter is wired to show the amplitude of the audio and non-audio signal variations. There are 4 controls which allow you to adjust the amount of charge on the dish, and to adjust the sensitivity and range that you are sensing on the antenna. This means that you are only measuring relative changes in the signal picked up, not the absolute amount of signal. However, if the controls are left at the same settings, you will see the relative change in signal from one sensing location to another, and from one point in time to another.

Starting with the U1 LM555 at the lower left, all the circuitry around this IC is an oscillator that supplies ac power to the Motorola-Lucent transformet (this is a transformer from a modem card). The secondary side of that transformer is connected so as to put a positive charge on the dish. The 100k potentiometer to the left of the 555 probably adjusts the oscillator frequency. If so, it will ultimately adjust how strong a charge is sent to the dish. This entire charging circuit and it's oscillator has it's own dedicated power supply which is isolated from the remaining sensing circuitry. This is most likely to avoid sending interference from the oscillator to the sensing circuits. I suppose the dish charging circuitry is turned on and off by removing the 9v battery to the left, but a switch could be added to disconnect the battery.

The reciever portion starts with the 30 cm telescoping antenna in the dish. It is shown connected to a wire that passes through a teflon bushing in the center of the dish. It should be said that teflon is one of the best insulators known, and the use of teflon may be crucial for top performance. The physical dimension of this teflon bushing may also be important depending on what voltage the dish is charged to, and if there is an ac frequency component on the dish.

Next we come to the sensor circuitry. (I presume this circuitry is isolated and shielded from the oscillator and dish. All of the sensor circuitry is powered by the two 9v batteries shown at the bottom right. The two voltage regulators provide 8v positive, 8v negative, and a ground. The sensor circuit is also turned on and off by removing the batteries, but a 2-gang switch could be added to turn it on and off. When we trace the wire from the antenna to the 3 ICs to the right, we see the signal is feeding into a 3-IC circuit whose output is sent to a differential amplifier.

Take note, that the differential amplifier has 3 potentiometers, one to control the feedback, and two that adjust the output signal that feeds to the next amplifier stage. This is where the sensitivity and sensing range of this machine is adjusted. After passing through the next amplifier stage at the right, the signal branches toward the speaker and a meter. The speaker has a small power transistor driving it, while the meter has an IC with another adjustment on the input side (appears to be a gain control to keep the meter in the desired range).

A final note about the differential amplifier circuitry: The 3 ICs that initially sense the antenna signal are designed to create a differential signal from the single signal on the antenna. The lower 2 of these 3 ICs, may create a short time delay in addition to inverting the polarity of the signal, depending on the values of the components around the IC. If this is true then this delay can be thought of as a phase shift for any frequency that may be picked up on the antenna, and the degrees of shift would be defined by the frequency sensed. If this portion of the circuit was intended to act as a delay, then it may have a significant influence on the operation of the LRL.

If anyone was to build this circuit, I suppose the mechanical considerations would be to make sure the dish and antenna assembly were sturdy enough to withstand whatever use you put the machine to. I imagine the balance of the finished machine is also important. This machine would be very lightweight, with the heaviest component being the 3 batteries and the meter. The electronics could probably be mounted inside 2 small aluminum boxes attached to an insulator on the back of the dish, and a handle attached to the bottom side of the boxes.

Electrical considerations revolve around the fact that you are measuring minute electrical variations near a charged dish. I would think it is important to wear non-static clothes (no synthetics -- 100% cotton), and keep any other objects that collect static charges away from the machine. Also, I would mount the dish-charging circuit in a seperate metal box from the sensor circuit. And ground both boxes to the sensor ground, while keeping the dish-charging circuit isolated from the box that it is mounted inside. If the charging lead that connects to the dish is longer than about a centimeter, I would shield it with a shield that connects to the box ground.

[FrancoItaly]

HI everyone
suggest this link for better knowledge of the electrostatic/ion fenomenon:
http://www.ece.rochester.edu/~jones/demos/ahern.html
http://www.wenzel.com/pdffiles/cloud.pdf
http://amasci.com/electrom/sas51p1.html#electro
http://www.imagineeringezine.com/e-zine/efield.html
http://www.corp.direct.ca/trinity/iondetector.html

I think that only an E-field may go for 10 meters or plus and ions near the detector are affected by this E-field

[Esteban]

Ivconic, welcome!

:)

Some considerations: the 555-oscillator requires work with voltage regulator. I think 8 volts is fine. So, two 9 V alkaline batteries needed for mantain large time in operation.

Now the transistor is connected to 18 V, no in regulator part for to prevent inestabilities.

Also replace the common 555 by 7555 wich drain less current. Cx is for calculate the desire frequency, believe 100 between 400 Hz is good. The key command another diode for detect positive ions. Dish polarizate negative = attract positive ions. Dish polarizate positive = attract negative ions. The batteries must be independent to this stage of the sensor-amplifier stage.

Any idea? Is correct this?

[FrancoItaly]

Hi Esteban
I think you have to reverse polarity of the other diode for detect positive ions!

[FrancoItaly]

Hi everyone

if the purpose of the transformer is to raise the oscillator voltage we can use 2 x 9V batteries stabilized by a 7815 regulator without the transformer...

[J_Player]

Franco is right. There is no need to add the voltage regulator. The original circuit has a transformer which raises the voltage above the amount seen in the output from the 555. If you wish to change the polarity of the dish, then connect a 2-gang switch that will reverse the polarity of the 2 4001 diodes in the original circuit.

The power consumed by the 555 can be reduced by using a cmos version of this IC. The oscillator could also be built from a cmos quad inverter and a resistor and capacitor. I expect the inverter oscilator would use even less power if the capacitor value was small and the frequency was in the low audio range.

My best guess is the frequency does not matter except it should be at a frequency that is close to the resonant frequency of the transformer/capacitor to the right. as the frequency of the oscillator is shifted away from the resonant frequency, you can expect the amount of charging to the dish to drop off. The 100k potentiometer next to the 555 is for making adjustments to the frequency for tuning purposes. The resultant voltage can be measured between the dish and ground rail with an analog volt meter. If this frequency is in the audio range, then there is a good chance you will hear it in the speaker. I presume this is not desirable, and it is tuned to a frequency outside the audio spectrum.

If it is desireable, the are are a number of ways to charge the dish to a higher voltage using the same 9v battery, and even send a very pure dc charge to the dish if necessary. But I have no knowledge if doing this this would improve locating treasures with the detector.

[Esteban]

Elektor's article (1987) about ionic detection for water, somebody maybe has in English. The article refers you can use a plate or telescopic antenna for this. The designers of this device assume that can find water IN MOVEMENT (subsurface), the only kind of water detectable by INTERCHANGING of ions.

The oscillator, through the 4066 transmit the frequency to the antenna for to discharge excesive ions arrival. The 10 k pot provides a kind of threshold and works as sensibility. Key is for detect water and other for electricity in walls. At more low conmutation via 2M2 preset the sensibility is better, this is at more low frequency. C9 is a kind of memory for the signal to compare, require good quality capacitor. Downloadble complete article (Zahori.zip) here: http://www.mytempdir.com/472871
Maybe somebody can translate for all, maybe somebody has the English version.
Here the schematic:

[J_Player]

Here are some ideas for buildig Ivconic's negative ion detector:

This machine can be very lightweight because the electronics for the transmitter and reciever are both minimal. If anyone was to build this circuit, the electronics could be mounted inside small metal boxes attached to an insulator on the back of the dish, and a handle attached to the bottom side of the boxes. The entire assembly including the dish could weigh between a quarter to a half-pound a (1/2 kilo to 1 kilo).

For actual construction, I would recommend that the charging and detecting circuits are mounted inside seperate metal boxes which are both grounded to the reciever circuit ground. The dish-charging circuit and battery should be mounted inside its metal box without contacting the metal, ie: nylon mounting hardware, or slip it into a plastic box that fits inside the metal box. If the charging lead that connects to the dish is longer than about a centimeter, I would shield it with a shield that connects to the box ground (see diagram below item A and C).

The box that contains the sensing circuit will most likely have the meter and speaker attached. A headphone jack could be wired in if you prefer to hear with headphones. Inside this box you should keep the circuit with the differential ampolifier as close to the antenna as possible, and away from the speaker and meter. the most critical part that could recieve interference is the antenna wire and the leads that it connects to. In practice, all these parts will fit in a very small space unless you choose a large meter and speaker. The idea is to mount the circuit board so the end with the antenna wire si up close against where the antenna is, without a long wire looped inside the case to reach the circuit board. The insulator that the electronics bozes attach to can be anything from insulating washers and screws, to an insulated plate as long as the boxes and electronics are not connected to the dish. The transistor and IC for the final amplification to the speaker and meter could be mounted on a small circuit board attached to the meter and speaker, or may be incorporated as part of a single board that holds all of the sensor electronics.
The dish and antenna are items that can be salvaged for no cost. If they must be bought, the antenna can be found at an electronics store like radio shack. If stainless steel works for a dish, then there are stainless stell mixing bowls available at stores that sell kitchen utensils for under $10. Goodwill second-hand stores are a good source to find used metal bowls that are about the right size for this project. The actual insulator and handle can be made from anything from woood to fiberglass. But if a partially conductive material is used like wood, then I would recommend using a plastic separator between it and the metal dish to insure there is no current flowing through the wood.

[FrancoItaly]

I think it's important to define what is the audio to loudspeaker, as there is no audio generator and then signal comes from antenna. The 1 mF tantal capacitor at the out of differential stage has a great value and then only very low frequencies can arrive to loudspeaker, I suppose a sound like "tac". Very strange the imput stage as on the contrary of instrumental amplifier it has a single input, also doubbled, and a differential output. I think the voltage on the Al dish it's not a perfect DC voltage but it has a little ripple of the oscillator frequency and this is the "carrier" of signal received.

[goldfinder]

Hola Esteban,
It looks to me like the two circuits do basically the same thing. Namely, the dish is negatively charged to attract positive ions so the antenna picks up the negative ions.

The 555 circuit in all these still bugs me. I replaced all my 555s and their associated parts with ONE PIC microcontroller and it works great. And it gives me lots more flexibility with numerous IO ports, Analog to Digital, total reprogramability of frequency and pulse width, etc.

Both circuits use a very high impedance front ends to pick up minute ion charges plus amplification of the signal.

Say Esteban, was that picture on the Mineoro thread with some guys with an ion detector your dish antenna ion detector? And was it the hopped up Elktor circuit. So have you really found anything with it???

I would venture that a simple tin can would server just as well to replace the bulky dish antenna. It could even have a fan in the back of the can to suck air in. That way the detector would not be subject to wind and air movements so much. Some of the commercial ion detectors use this principle. That big dish antenna is cumbersome in the field.

Goldfinder

[Esteban]

Hi






The picture in Mineoro thread is a machine type high-voltage, but in this case the high voltage "emerge" from the sharp-end of the central solid bronze antenna. The round copper disc is the "receiver". Incredible, but this machine works better near high voltage lines. No many technical details have about it...







The original Elektor 's "water finder" (in Spanish "ZahorÃ*") suffers some modifications. I added two more lateral antennas to 0 V, and use an only sensibility control, the 10 k pot. This circuit work fine at 4.5 V, 1.5 V AA batteries, dual +/- 4.5 V.



The audio output connect to an audible signalizer type bip-bip. So, convert any "bad" tac or tic or etc. in a bip-bip.



The antenna has not direct connection with the IC, I use 100 pF.



Yes, sure, also you can find buried long time metals with it.







Here a classic idea of antenna for ions detection. For replace the both lateral telescopic antenna in Zahori or for the Ivconic's project.

[goldfinder]

HI Esteban,
Thanks for reply. Your "classic" ion detection antenna is basically the same as my suggestion to use a tin can with an antenna in the center. The tin can is polarized to collect the opposite of the ions the central antenna is collecting that goes to the analysis electronics.

Have good THing,
Goldfinder

[ivconic]

Hi,
I have read all post so far. First, a lot of thanks to J Player for opening
a new thread. I do agree absolutelly with that. J Player's notes,suggests and
ideas are more than welcome and I could not do anything else but agree and thanks!
Some hints:
* For dish I can advice only Al or Cu.
* 555 to replace with 7555 is just fine.(due to power consumption)
* freq.of 555 is to be tuned a lower than 1khz.
* stabillity is not very important due to purpose of polarisation of the dish,
that's why is 555 choice,dish need some potential and freq. can vary a bit.
* transformer is not only for rising voltage but as a galvanic isolation and
band-pass too.
* dish is better than cage due to wider range of rejecting,although a cage is
very nice solution if you want a narrow angle of "scaning".

"Inside this box you should keep the circuit with the differential amplifier
as close to the antenna as possible..." J Player's note
* This is crucial !!! I do agree 100%. Otherwise all You pick up is a noise!
that's why teflon is used.It should be a teflon holder for antena and pcb
at the same time! No wires at all in between! The rest of the box may be
Lexan or metal.

"I think it's important to define what is the audio to loudspeaker, as there
is no audio generator and then signal comes from antenna. The 1 mF tantal
capacitor at the out of differential stage has a great value and then only
very low frequencies can arrive to loudspeaker, I suppose a sound like "tac".
Very strange the imput stage as on the contrary of instrumental amplifier it
has a single input, also doubbled, and a differential output. I think the
voltage on the Al dish it's not a perfect DC voltage but it has a little
ripple of the oscillator frequency and this is the "carrier" of signal
received." FrancoItaly's notes

Ciao Franco, come e sta? I guess that's all from my Italian!
Well You have right at some points. Audio is "poor" a bit, but enough.You can
mod it if You want. The 1mF tantal is a filter. "Tac" is supposed to hear and
it is allright.Input is ultra high impendace, only way to collect some ions.
Input has a "double" or "twins" but with different level of amplifying, think
about that! Both are leaded in to diff. amp.and only a slice shift You hear
in a speaker.About "carrier", well You might be right.I was thinking to put
some extra filter on it.Open for ideas.

Hi Esteban!
"The audio output connect to an audible signalizer type bip-bip. So,
convert any "bad" tac or tic or etc. in a bip-bip."
Yes Esteban, I agree! I was thinking to mod this anyway.
About "jail" or "cage"(as I named it), yes, but it is very narrow and You have to
use a fan. Fan, from the other hand, can produce some noise to input....
It will need some extra electronics to calm down that noise.But in any case,
"jail" is nice too.

Well, what to say more....it seem that if we all put some ideas here(and draws and
some mod's schematics) we can come up to a very nice device. That was my
idea at the begining. Besides, man can learn much more when share with others!
In that spirit I salute You people.
Best regards.
P.S.
I am waiting for more mods. J Player did a great job so far.

[aft_72005]

Hi to all

I have problems :

How discriminate gold ion from other ions with

This circuit ? for example ,silver ion ,water ion,

And …..

May be dish charge frequency dependent to discrimination .

Why use dish in circuit ? for focus ions or attraction it .

Seem as for attraction, so when charge it be able

Attract opposite ions thus probably we can use another

Form Replace whit dish .

Thanks.

[FrancoItaly]

HI IVCONIC andothers
your italian is good! it's better of my scholastic english!
Only few words, I can go to my work:
The 10K potentiometre to BC107 serve to vary voltage on Al Dish, it may be a sort of discrimination..

[Esteban]

Hi all!!! :)

I use this very stable circuit for any gadget. Is for convert the ugly sound or minielevation of audio in nice "bips". This is for ALL use you want.

The 555 works as comparator. In abscence of any signal (this is, all the stages off) connect this circuit. Whit the preset, adjust in the more sensitivity point —this is, near the continuous bips— and retire a very little. If sounds at the moment of the connection, adjust it in the more good level point. The 22 k resistor and the 10 uF cap are for short timming of bips.

The piezosounder is the type that include internal oscillator.

I have built many of this with 100 variations, but this is one of the betters.

Of course, with the preset you control the sensibility you want.

[Esteban]

Hi IONHUNTERS!!!

This is the same, but with speaker. C7 and R7 is for the audio tone, at more high cap, more bass. Select the conjuntion between the both resistor and capacitor, since 1 K and 120 nF, the nice for your ears. Mantain the 47 K in the base of the first transistor. In the piezosounder version, this resistor can be since 1 K. Diode is as protection.

[Geo]

Hi. I think that it is time to play with this ionic detector but i have some questions.
1. I stay at a small city and i can not find the TLC271 - 272. Can i use a TL072 or 082 for tlc 272 and another Op.Am for tlc271 (no Cmos)?
2. The TLC271 and the first tlc272 have unity gain and the first half of the other TLC272 has a gain of 3 about. I believe that the first stages must have more gain.
3. If i use a bakelite feed-through capacitor instead for teflon is there any problem?
Can i detect iron or other metals with the ion detector so to be easy to test and play with it?
I wait for your opinion.
Regards

[Geo]

Hi Esteban. Why there are two dishes?

[J_Player]

A few of thoughts come to mind about modding this circuit:

1. We know the 7555 can be subsitiuted for lower power consumption in the charging circuit. Frequency is not critical, below 1khz. Does anybody know if it is desirable to have clean DC charging the dish? Or is it better to have this 1khz ac frequency component sent to the dish? There are some easy circuits that will remove most of the ac from the final charging to the dish if this is good for improved performance.

2. Is it desirable to have even higher voltage on the dish? If a higher voltage is good, then a simple diode/capacitor circuit can be used to double, triple the voltage or more. Very low cost.

3. For the antenna signal amplifier, the TLC272 has extremely high inpuit impedance because it is a cmos device with field effect input gate. The next 2 stages of differential amp and linear amp are a second TLC272 (each TLC272 has 2 cmos op amps on the chip). There are several similar cmos op amps in this family starting with the low-cost TLC272 to the TLC277 for high precision. All these devices are capable of taking a very small signal and amplifying it with a minimum amount of interference from the power supply and very low power consumption compared to bipolar op amps. This is why they are the preferred choice of op amps to process the weak ion singnal on the antenna... they give you the best chance of listening to this signal with the least amount of interference from outside noise. If you want to make a substitution, then use another Cmos device or FET device in order to keep the input impedance very high. A simple cmos inverter like the 4001 can be used as a substitute and wired with feedback to act like a linear amp with hand-picked resistors and capacitors to accomplish the same results as the TLC272, but it will be a more simple design. The 4001 inverter version will have the same noise rejection properties as the TLC272, but not the refinements and linearity of the TLC272 op amp version. It may turn out that the 4001 version is adequate, and no need for advanced op amp version of Cmos.

There are also other cmos and FET devices that could be substituted in the signal amplifier stages. If you want to know a good substitution, then look at the cmos and FET catalogs, and find op amps and darlington amps that are available. All these devices consume low power if you don't connect a power hog load to them. And this circuit does not show any power hog load in the output of any of the signal amplifier stages.

4. Ideally these antenna signal amplifiers should be close to the dish and antenna. You may even make a small 30cm circuit board to hold these cmos amplifiers, and connect it to the antenna connection at the teflon bushing. Then put a wire mesh or metal box around this circuit board, and send output wires to the speaker and the meter. In order to keep things simple, the transistor and op amp for the meter and speaker could be mounted on the back of these devices. This way, the sensitive cmos parts could be kept seperate from the higher power noise-maker amplifiers for the speaker and meter.

5. Answer about audio at the speaker: Any audio heard at the speaker will come from one of three sources. 1) If ion signal is being collected on the antenna in a wave pattern that is in the audio range of frequency (20 hz to 15000 hz) then you should hear this sound on the speaker. 2) Electronic noise from the circuitry may be audible on the speaker if this noise gets into the signal circuitry. This noise includes the 1khz charging oscillator frequency, and elecrtonic noise from transistors in the meter and speaker amplifier circuits. 3) Atmospheric interference, which could include who knows what? Could be anything from static electricity to sunspots causing ionisphere interference, or friction from tires rolling on the road sending out static charges. The electronic circuit noise can be minimized by using shielding around the signal amplifiers, and by keeping the connection wire very short between the antenna and the cmos op amps.

6. Final thought is a question for anyone who knows: The antenna signal feeds into 2 op amps which send out a differential signal into the differential amp. But these 2 op amps also have a 3rd op amp shown below in a feedback loop on the lower of the 2 op amps. What is the purpose of this feedback loop? is it only to create a delay that helps reverse the polarity of the lower op amp? Or is it to also act as a filter for certain frequencies seen in the antenna signal?

[Jim]

Wouldn't the pinky ring on the operator’s hand hinder the operation of that particular device? In addition, why is that one fellow holding a piece of string up over the device, as if it was a trophy?

Jim

[FrancoItaly]

I think you can use TL081 and TL082 or 3 X CA3130 that have similar features. The first high impedance stage use bootstrap technique :(http://web.telia.com/~u43200663/blocks/bootstrapping.htm the bottom stage with 2 OP (TLC272) has a greater impedance than the TLC271 amplifier, and is also greater the RC constant. I think that the differential amplifier only responds to variations of signal input, when you move the instrument in different site, and like a "motion metal detector" the 4K7 potentiometer is the preset "tuning". There is no need of retuning push.

[FrancoItaly]

The Led in input stage serves to visualize the battery charge, but I think is better to use a 78L06 for voltage stabilization with 1/2 LM358 used as comparator + Led and to use the other 1/2 LM358 as oscillator instead LM555. The voltage on Dish can be changed by the 10K potenziometer and I think we can use other types of transformers, but it's necessary to know the highest value of voltage on Dish, on this site http://www.techlib.com/science/ion.html#Better%20Version the author uses 45 V for collecting ions and we can use a transformer with a ratio of 1/5 or 1/6.

[robert]

Anybody knows replacement for op.amps. 2071,2081,2082 etc...
Some projects include those....Help!

[ivconic]

:)


Hi,
AFT 72005
"How discriminate gold ion from other ions with This circuit ? for example ,silver ion ,
water ion, And ….."
Huh! It is a question! Ask Carl ! He'll be delited to answer!
By the way, there is no way to discriminate type with this device only polarisation.
I am not sure that ions care their origin at all.Somebody claimed that, but I never
met such claims in my books.Anyway , that kind of device should cost over $milions !!!
(in that case mineoro is very cheap...bargain, you may say).

Geo,
You can test ionic detector very easy, by pointing it in
some older TV set. Almost is a rule that high voltage stage in older TV's is
"leaking", and producing a lot of ions !!! Simple and cheap test !
About op.amps....you already got answer from the others...
About gain, it is enough. Adding more gain lead You to risk of going "wild".
About bakelite feed-through capacitor...I don't think so.
"Can i detect iron or other metals with the ion detector..."

Good question...Ask Carl,than ask Dell...than decide.(I would bet on Carl!)
J Player

Most of Your remarks I agree!
"2. Is it desirable to have even higher voltage on the dish?"

No! It was crucial mistake on some previous designs ! Higher voltage may generate
some own ions, so You can easy colect them instead foreign ones, if everything
was not quite good adjusted!

"6. Final thought is a question for anyone who knows: The antenna signal
feeds into 2 op amps which send out a differential signal into the differential
amp. But these 2 op amps also have a 3rd op amp shown below in a feedback loop
on the lower of the 2 op amps. What is the purpose of this feedback loop? is it
only to create a delay that helps reverse the polarity of the lower op amp? Or
is it to also act as a filter for certain frequencies seen in the antenna
signal?"

As a filter for certain "frequencies" seen in the antenna signal and integral part of
second input, acting a huge role in common impendance....
Delay...maybe, I didn't think that way....very interesting!

FrancoItaly
"The 10K potentiometre to BC107 ..."

Preset the amplitude of signal.
TL081/082 ... I do not think so ! CA3130/40....maybe...709(MAA501)...maybe

"The first high impedance stage use bootstrap technique ..."
Absolutelly correct !!! Bravo Franco !!!
"I think that the differential amplifier only responds to variations of signal input,
when you move the instrument in different site, and like a "motion metal detector"
the 4K7 potentiometer is the preset "tuning". There is no need of retuning push."
Absolutelly correct !!! Again Bravo Franco !!! Come to think...are You posted
this project or it was me !? You understood everything much better than me!?
Great understanding! Bravo!
"The Led in input stage serves to visualize the battery charge..."
Led should blinks in the rythm of charging....good.

"...but I think is better to use a 78L06 for voltage stabilization with 1/2 LM358 used
as comparator + Led and to use the other 1/2 LM358 as oscillator instead LM555.."
Really not necessairly, but good idea anyway.
"I think we can use other types of transformers..."
Steady...other transformer...other characteristics! But transformer is easy to
obtain. Open some old modem and there it is !

Esteban
Good schematic Esteban. I was thinking to mod Classic III sound, I'll try this
your schematic and see. Thanks for posting it.

Best regards to all!

[aft_72005]

Hi ivconic and all

Mineoro company says be able detect gold ions .

Are you or anybody know what kind of detection used in mineoro ? is it ion detector ?

And I wrote :

Why use dish in circuit ? for focus ions or attraction it .

Seem as for attraction, so when charge it, be able

Attract opposite ions thus probably we can use another

Form Replace whit dish .

I have not any reply yet.
Thanks ivconic and all.

[FrancoItaly]

Hi,
I think that it's possible to detect gold in a range of some meters or plus. It 's true that gold don't release ions but it can form a ground battery with other metals and/or minerals also if they are not near gold, it takes only several years in order that the battery "appears"; this is the "long buried" effect! A battery in the ground can add its own voltage to existing E-field and then it can deform its induction lines. The conclusion may be a different distribution of ions that are normally in the air: if this explanation is true it's possible to test our ion detector with a sample of gold and an iron rod sticked in the ground at few meters...

[FrancoItaly]

my previous explanation is compatible with what Esteban says: his ion detector is sensible not only to gold but also to copper and bronze, that is other metals that are able to form a battery with iron and/or minerals. Perhaps it's possible a type of discrimination as the battery formed by gold and other metals has a greater voltage then other batteries without gold..

[J_Player]

So far we have established that this machine can be expected to attract airborne negative ions and and detect their presence in the vicinity of the dish and antenna. It appears that the machine works in a manner similar to commercial ion detectors used to test for equipment that is creating ions. But this leads us to the next stage:

How can we use this machine to locate buried treasures? What specific techniques could we use? Let's suppose we ask a friend to take a 1-ounce gold coin (90% pure or more) and bury it 6 inches deep in a soccer field, and remove any evidence that would show where the coin is buried. Then we arrive with the newly built negative ion detetor and turn it on. After adjusting the controls, we see the meter move when we click our piezo lighter several times up close to the dish. Now it is time to locate the buried coin. Our friend is sitting at the side of the soccer field with a grin on his face thinking we will never find the coin. What should we do next?

[FrancoItaly]

Hi J PLAYER
As I told in my previous post you can stick an iron rod in the ground and the battery gold/iron can influence your ion detector..

[Dell Winders]

I don't mean to intrude where I am not qualified to speak as I have zero formal education in electrical, electronics, or physics, but I notice that the focus is on how Ion's can be utilized for remote sensing, and the acceptance that Ions are the primary source of the applied physics that are claimed to be employed in the schematic being analyzed and interpreted.

Years ago a Physcist in Texas that was using one of my instruments told me he knew the principle these instruments utilized for remote sensing the "field's" of Chemical elements, "Light Wave Particles". I can't disagree that LWP may inadvertently play a minor role because I don't know, but from my very limited knowledge I don't see LWP as the basis of the application, and maybe it's not Ion's either.

I think if I were attempting such a study exclusive to the Ion theory, I would seek to learn how big a role Ion's play in conventional methods before reaching a conclusion that it actually is an application of Ion's that is being utilized in the schematic, and not assume that it is fact, rather than it possibly being "AS IF" Ions appear to be the physics being utilized? Who here is qualified in Earth Science Physics to let us know?

My questions would be, how big a role do Ion's play in conventional detection methods using E/M, Magnetometor, low frequency Radio waves, Magnetic resonance, etc? Dell

[Esteban]

Hi all the IONSHOOTERS!!!

If the decive works in conjunction of stability and sensibility with addition of bips generator, sure will be detect gold, silver, alloys of these, copper and bronze. Distance in discussion. Maybe 20 m for a coin.


Geo:

The machine was experimental for gold. The center antennna is a bronze type sharp end. A TV flayback generates high voltage and charge high voltage capacitor in order 30 pF 30 kV during few seconds. This generates an "ionic wind" and the copper disc receive and actuates as a key connected to chemical classifier, but don't have more info about it.

TLC 271 replacement FROM ANOTHER ELECTRONIC FORUM: Probably the best replacement for LF351 will be CA3140, but you can easily use TLC271, ICL7611, TLC071, TLC081.

For replacement TLC 272 you can use TLC072, TLC 082. Or commons TL062 - TL072, LF412, LF353. More new is NE5532.

For single maybe the commons TL061, TL071, LF411, LF351, LF356. More new is the NE5534. Try!!!

Bakelite is better. No static collected.

* * * * * *

Ivconic:

555 comparator-timer (great discovery!) is useful for all you think. If you connect a tuned coil, you can test oscillators, search heads, etc. If you connect phototransistor or IR led receiver or photorresistor, test remote controls, phototransistor, photodiode, etc. If you connect a coill winding in magnet, you detect vibrations. An short antenna detects flyback oscillation or pulse induction. No limits! Is my universal "revealer".


* * * * * *

FrancoItaly:

Respect the battery formed in earth: here the radio by earth battery by galvanic effect!!! (so consider old time buried gold and any conductive metal as battery)::D

[FrancoItaly]

Hi Esteban,
You have a working ion detector then you can verify if it's possible to sense a gold/steel ground battery...

[J_Player]

This ion detector seems like it is useful for detecting negative ions, not buried gold. This particular machine was not represented as a treasure locating device. What Ivconic told us when he posted the schematic is: "Only one claim: this device at least do something, despite some commercial devices do nothing!"

He never said it could locate any treasure. So far, we have no answers that tell us how to locate a buried treasure using this machine. Discussions of physics theory are not necessay to explain what procedure should be used with the Ivconic ion detector to locate treasure. Physics theory is good for designing LRLs, but we already have a completed design that is guaranteed to "at least do something". The only question I have is how to use this machine to locate treasure. I am interested to know the procedure and method that must be used, not the theories of why it works or does not work.

We have a hint from Franco: "you can stick an iron rod in the ground and the battery gold/iron can influence your ion detector". This is at least a first step toward locating a buried treasure. But how to find the treasure buried in a field using Ivconic's negative ion detector? In Franco's posts, he says "it takes only several years in order that the "battery appears"; this is the "long buried" effect!".

So now we have somewhere to start. Let's suppose we have finished building Ivconic's negative ion detector, and we have tested it and found that it works as well as most commercial ion detectors at finding ions around your television screen and your high voltage air purifier. Now we show the machine to our friend who tells us he buried a 3-ounce gold nugget in a soccer field 5 years ago. He also buried an iron pipe 30 cm long at each of the 4 corners of the soccer field, where the top 2 cm of these pipes can be seen in the grass. He invites us to come to the soccer field to see how well Ivconic's negative ion detector works for locating "long buried" 3-ounce gold nugget that has had time to develop the "battery effect".

So we drive to the soccer field on a warm summer day and get out of the car at a golf course across the street from the soccer field. We turn on the ion detector and adjust the controls while standing in the middle of the fairway of hole 3 of the golf course. After seeing that it picks up a signal when we click our piezo lighter near the antenna and dish, we walk across the street to the soccer field that has the long-buried" gold nugget, and 4 iron pipes at the corners of the field.

The question is: What do we do next in order to locate where our friend buried the gold nugget? What step-by step procedure do we use to find the buried nugget using this negative ion detector built from Ivconic's schematic?

The question is NOT about what princples of physics cause LRLs or ion detection to work. It is Not a question of whether ions play any important role in locating treasure. The question is about how can I find that nugget using Ivconic's negative ion detector machine.

[michael]

Hi anybody and thanks so much for your efforts.
I have these questions from Esteban (due to his more experiences);
1- Is this device able to detect gold or as J player stated not?
2- If is able, should we use just 1 Hz or no, can use other frequencies e.g. 5 KHz for gold or 8.7 KHz for silver?


I am so much desired know after these your professional and copious discussions,
where are now? It’s only an obscure ion detector??!!!
Regards, Michael.

[J_Player]

I can tell you with very high accuracy that this machine will find negative ions in the air. I cannot tell you that this machine will find treasure until someone shows us how to locate treasure with this machine. But if you build this machine exactly as shown in Ivconic's schematic, then you will find negative ions near your old television for sure..

[FrancoItaly]

Hi All

If we bury a sample of gold and a sample of iron at 2 or 3 meters of distance the ground battery soon appears and you can verify easy with a voltmeter. If my theory is true you can detect this voltage also with a ion detector.
The Ivconic's ion detector is a motion instrument non for static measurements. Ordinary ion detectors are designed for eliminate AC components of the detected signals. I think that for all us it's not interesting to know how many ions are near our television, but perhaps some piece of gold may be hidden inside the television!

[J_Player]

Does this mean that it is not possible to find the 3-ounce gold nugget in the soccer field with Ivconic's negative ion detector unless an iron pipe is buried 2 or 3 meters from where the gold is buried? If the gold nugget was buried 2 meters from the iron pipe in the corner of the soccer field, then what method would we use to locate the nugget using Ivconic's negative ion detector? Is it necessary to first know the location of 3 meter square piece of land with hidden gold and iron pipe before we can locate it with this negative ion detector? I think we can find the 3-ounce nugget with an ordinary metal VLF or PI detector if we know the location within 3 meter square area, and no need for iron pipe nearby. Does this mean the negative ion detector is not good for LRL detecting?

Some televisions use gold plated connectors. Will the ion detector find dtll us the difference between a television with gold plated connectors inside and a television with no gold plated connectors? Will it tell us if a television has silver plated connectors and wires? Is the signal for gold plated connectors stronger than the signal that comes from high voltage flyback causing ionization to the air that comes in contact with the components and then dissipates and migrates out of the vent holes in the back of the television?

[Esteban]

Hi IONHUNTERS!!

Only metals buried for some years show the phenomenon. So, this machine or like this is for detect buried metals, because these creates around him an electric field or like a battery as suggest FrancoItaly. Repeat: if this ion detector combines good sensibility, stability and accuracy, then sure will be sensitive to this kinds of electric fields, because this electric fields produces an imbalance in the antenna and can show via the adequate signalizer. A treasure produces high energy, in some cases can break the first IC, no science-fiction. This machine is for use in inland, lands free of excessive interference and far to powerlines. Accuracy in this kind of machine mean stability in the more sensitive point.

Here is not important if the soil is more negative or positive than the air or viceversa. Or if the input of the IC is for positive or negative signal. In stability condition of ambient no signal is present, but in the vecinity of this metal there are a voltage and this rapid changes "knock". So, this "knock" is the important, because up or down the voltage in the electronics, but while "search" for stabilize in the zero, if down tends to up, and if up tends to down and occurs the bips. Agree with FrancoItaly: this instrument is for motion operation. The blocking cap in the antenna is important. 100 pF is a good value. Ceramic high voltage is good, 500 or 1,000 V.

Walk with the machine and move left-right, right-left not very slowly. This mean during detection as you move work as AC and the signal pass through the antenna cap!

The machine form a 90º angle with the body, not very near the body, with the arm semiextended. For to be sure you have detected a X point where the machine sounds, walk in another direction. The bips in the place is the "site".

Another considerations:

* Sometimes (this occurs with some designs) the difference in the terrain produces erratics. All you know that each 1 meter the voltage in the air is 100 or 200 V more the referencial site... Difficult "business" fight to this kind of disturbs.

* At low atmospheric pressure, all long distance detector is better.

I have metal buried in my yard since 1987: 51 bronze quality coins at 75 cm, recipient of silver (200 g) -90 cm-, copper coins (4), cover of gold old watch, small "treasure" of various silver objects, gold rings, include a bronze plate of record player, a 120 cm X 60 cm gross copper plate, curious found with long distance electronic detector at 50 m.

What are you doing? Start with your artificial fields!

[Anker]

The Regard!

Think, you is of interest honour the letter from Mineoro my friend , in brief explaining principle of the recognition "golden" ion.

Excuse me for bad english, with best wishes,

Anker.

===========






Dear Mr. Kravchenko,





Hope you this finds you well.



In answer to your questions about Long Range Directional Detectors with Classifier (LRDD):



It is necessary to clarify, in the first place, that understanding a “new invention� starting with the knowledge we have about ions, electromagnetism, magnetic fields, electric fields, EMI, dinamic electricity, static electricity, radio waves, LW, MW, SW, VHF, UHF and others, without advancing many grades forward these phenomena, already known by Science, is very difficult , not to say impossible.



We should also note that these “new phenomena� cannot be measured as there aren´t, yet, measuring instruments sensitive enough.



DEFINITIONS:



1 – Dynamic Electricity:



It is the energy generated by electric generators and transmitted by metal conductors, wires. This energy is produced as alternated tension , (ac) or continuous (cc) . This is also extracted from continuous current batteries.



2 – Static Electricity (Electrostatic)



It is the electricity produced by insulators or bad conductors.

It is generated by friction of substances between them. Solid, Liquid, Gaseous or Plasmatic. This definition was first enunciated by the german scientist Loeb (references quoted), in 1958.







3 – Creation of Ionic Fields:



3.1 – Generated by continuous high tension positive or negative by sharp point. Normally around 800 to 900 volts. Other tensions are feasible.

3.2- Ionic field by chemical flow in galvanization processes.

3.3 – Other ionic fields generators for different purposes, so-called ionizators.



4 – Magnetic Fields



They are fields created by permanent alnico magnets, strange earth magnets, etc, the magnetic field of the Earth, generated by the central core or the Planet that has a field of aproximately 0,5 gauss at the polar ice-caps and 0,3 gaus at the Equator line. Approximate data. Other magnetic fields can be created in radio coils generated by electromagnetic Hertz waves. They create microfields, that eventhough their low intensity are measurable in oscilloscopes, microvoltimeters and other electronic instruments , and amplified by electronic circuits for various uses.





I am certain that you, being an Electronic Engineer and Chips Designer, have studied in your Engineering course all these phenomena , that is why I have just mentioned a feedback, as a reminder , with the aim of just clarifying what is scientific knowledge and what the inventors Damásio and Alonso have advanced from the information already of public domain and academic curricular subject.



5 – Measurements:



In this item I would like to approach briefly the measurement of phenomena. The data referred here are not submitted in exact percentage. They are just data for reflection and understanding of the “new phenomena� detected by the inventors.



5.1- In measurements of dynamic electricity I will just refer to tensions under 1 volt.

5.2- In measurement of static electricity of 0 (zero) to 20.000 volts or more.

5.3- In measurement of ionic fields in Ã… - angstrons, nano, pico, femto and atto volts.



6 – What are Ions:



The scientific concept of Ions is already of public domain and well-informed in scientific books and news worldwide.

Ions are atoms. Modified atoms. One ion is called “positive ion� when it loses one or more electron(s). It is called a “negative ion� when an electron or more is increased to it. In that area of activity we are visiting a region of “nano� or below nano movements.

That is to say: Ã…= 10-8; nano= 10-9; femto=10-15 and atto= 10-18.





7 – Why are Ions free everywhere?



It is because the matter – all and any substance – loses atomic weight, it loses atoms liberated from matter in form of negative “ions� and positive “ions�. These ions are everywhere in the Universe. In our solar system, in the atmospheric space and cosmic space, in Earth as a whole. In the ground, underground and in the center of the Planet. Therefore, everywhere we have ionic fields spread in all directions. Our physical body is losing atomic weight during 24 hours. Our clothes, our hair, our shoes, our houses, furniture, food, and fresh water, salty water, all and any liquid, or gas, everything in any state of matter loses atomic weight in form of ions.



The loss is proportionate to the size of the object, the bigger the object, more “ionic� volume lost. All the elements of Earth also are in form of atoms. All the mines, all the minerals. The plants, the bushes, the big trees, the flowers, all I can name, being a substance, is giving away ions through loss of atomic weight.



Summary of Item 7 ( First item of LRDD system)



The “matter� – substance – necessary for Long Distance detection exists in our solar system and beyond. We will see, then, how can we manipulate these information and use the ions of each substance. (*)



8 – An observation of what exists and a “discovery� . New invention.



How does a short-circuit occur?

When we connect a positive wire to another negative without any charge, a short circuit occurs. Independently of the existent tension. Could be microvolts, nanovolts or below, or higher tensions. This short- circuit produces a characteristic noise like a “CRASH� (breakdown), noise that can be heard from a few centimeters to a hundred of meters, depending on the voltage provoking the short-circuit. Followed by a glaring radiance proportionate to the short -circuit.



The discovery: During laboratory and field studies , we discovered that between a negative ion and a positive ion the same phenomenom occurs. A short-circuit occurs and a proportional CRASH. In the microvolts, nanovolts region or below. The short-circuit and the CRASH are not measurable or audible. So if we could hear that CRASH or detect that short-circuit in an electronic system of super high sensitivity we will have a response of the phenomenom.



The idea behind the Substance Classifier



As the package of ions spread in all directions, of all substances was too big and compact, it was difficult to separate just an “ion� or various “ions� of the same substance. So we come out with the idea of inventing a “Substance Classifier� , that is to say, a device which has the ability to “filter� just the “ion� or “ions� we needed to produce the phenomenom of “micro crash�, “nano crash�or below. After years of researching and field experiences , it was born. It was invented not just as a classifier – “filter�, but as a generator of positive “ions�, receiver of negative “ions� in order to the short-circuit occur , and generator of electrostatic. Through electrostatic , the “ions� walk long distances , as if along an “invisible wire�.



(*) An ion is any atom or group of atoms that bears one or more positive or negative electrical charges. Positively charged ions are called cations, negatively charged ions, anions. Ions are formed by the addition of electrons to, or the removal of electrons from neutral atoms or molecules or other ions; by combination of ions with other particles; or by rupture of a covalent bond between two atoms in such a way that both of the electrons of the bond are left in association with one of the formerly bonded atoms. Examples of these processes include the reaction of a sodium atom with a chlorine atom to form a sodium cation and a chloride anion; the addition of a hydrogen cation to an ammonia molecule to form an ammonium cation; and the dissociation of a water molecule to form a hydrogen cation and a hydroxide anion.



Many crystalline substances are composed of ions held in regular geometric patterns by the attraction of the oppositely charged particles for each other. Ions migrate under the influence of an electrical field and are the conductors of electric current in electrolytic cells.





Electrostatic, when moving , is like a radio frequency wave which has the property of “carrying� various signals, such as: audio, digital information, video signals, color signals and many others. Electrostatics is like a transportation

firm. As FEDEX; UPS and DHL. It carries from South to North all the “ionization� which is free. Watch in the site under IONIC FIELD www.mineoro.com (http://www.mineoro.com/).campo01.htm

Also, a discovery of the inventors Damásio and Alonso.

The insulators above mentioned are all the non-conductive substances. In the detection system – LRDD – the most important insulator, from the point of view of the phenomenom, is the Atmospheric Air. The most electrostatically positive it is, the farther it will carry the negative “ions�.

After the rain, when the atmosphere is negatively charged, the distance of detection is less. Before the rain, some days before, the atmosphere is positively charged and the detection occurs much farther. This is scientifically proved.

It is when there is atmospheric discharge – lighting .



There are different types of electrostatics:



a – Electrostatics coming from Orion Constellation, discovered by USA scientists in 2003.



b – Electrostatics produced by the Earth rotation in the atmospheric space.



c - Electrostatics produced by the central core of the Earth, which travels 12 miles more than the external part of the Planet along the period of an year.



d - Electrostatics produced by parked engines(switched on) or in movement, by ships, planes, cars and a lot more.



f – I, myself, Damásio, typing this message in the computer, in a dry day and moving my chair on a vynil carpet, generate more than 35.000 volts of electrostatics.



g – Any movement we make or which is made produces electrostatics. Our breathing; the movement of our hands; walking, every step, depending on the day and the relative humidity of the air can produce up to 20.000 volts electrostatic or more. And it is very good for our health. We are surrounded by electrostatics during all our lifespan even when we are not aware. Standing up; sitting down; lying in bed; in the bathroom; practising any sport; even in the most sedentary positions we are producing electrostatics. Therefore, all things that surround us, nearby or farther away, produce in some way, electrostatics.

It is just this phenomenom ,one of the strongest interagents in Long Range Detection with Substance Classifier.



9 – An attentive observation and “one more discovery�:



Carefully analizing all the previous information about electrostatics, we infer that, all movement, according to Loeb, creates electrostatics.



‘Static electrification covers all processes for producing segregation of positive and negative electrical charges by mechanical actions which operate by contact or impact between solid surfaces, between solid and liquid surfaces, or in the ruptpre or separation of solid or liquid surfaces by gases or otherwise, including also ionized gases. These involve such processes as frictional, contact, or triboelectrification, spray electrification and electrification in dust, snow or in thunderstorms�



Leonard B. Loeb, Static Electrification, Springer-Verlag, Berlin-Gottingen-Heidlberg, 1958.





So “ions� in movement, just them, would generate electrostatics. It was discovered one more issue that would explain the LRDD. Although in an infinitely small phenomenom, micro, nano , pico, femto or atto phenomenom, the electrostatic phenomenom occurs as well. It is a electrostatics with the characteristic of the substance created by it.

It is the same with a person´s DNA. The negative “ion�, in our case, gold “ion� brings its DNA, that is the energy which will tranport it. The “ion� itself generates that transporting energy.

This explains the substance classifier. When the negative “ion� finds its twin of opposite polarity, they love each other so intensively, that when they get together they provoke a short-circuit autodestroying themselves. As in the Romeo and Juliet movie, both of them die, but the proof of their death is a flask of poison near them; in the same way, our “passionate ions� also leave a proof of their death in “emiting a crash�, which generates an electrical signal so fast as nano, pico, femto or atto seconds , detectable in sensitive electronic circuits and projected for this aim.

The classifier just filters the negative ‘ions�, twin pairs of positivie “ions� produced by the classifier. To this phenomenom, Alonso (60) and Damásio (70) gave the name of “Substance Classifier� or just “Classifier�.

This denomination was necessary to differentiate from the expression “discrimination�, commonly used in other systems of detection by electromagnetic waves.

About the “classifier� it is good to inform that it is possible to manufacture classifiers for other metal and non-metal substances. It is possible to classify blood in its kinds; plants and its kinds; drugs and its kinds, etc. at long distance.

That is why we announced in the media that we are talking about “ A MODERN

INVENTION�.







10 - Ionic Chamber



The ionic/electrostatic chamber consists of the external “antenna� in the form of a black tube, plus an elliptical sensor inserted in the plate of the boardcircuit,

object of your question. This sensor in elliptical shape represents an ionic/electrostatic field reflector, similar to the reflectors used in the antique tv aerials, which had deflectors and reflectores to better concentrate the signal received from VHF. The idea of that ionic/electrostatic reflector was originated in those reflectors.

This sensor reflects and concentrates like a lens part of the energy that escapes and it is not detected by the “antenna� inside the black tube. This ionic/electrostatic energy is reutilized by the “antenna� increasing the detection capacity of the detector and turning the detection more directional. As the detection with electrostatics has the property of polarizing the substrate, an electrical time constant was placed for this depolarization, keeping the sensor neutral to reflect the “ionic/electrostatic� fields.

It is good to clarify that electrostatics reflects, concentrates, disperses, and is carried by metals, conductive wires, etc. The same as dynamic electricity.

When the Directional Detectors is moved into a horizontal or vertical position a static electricity is produced, electrostatics, according to Loeb, necessary in the ionic chamber for the use of positive “ions� which would meet the negative “ions�, producing the phenomenom of Long Range Directional Detection with Substance Classifier, as it was explained before.

The existent electronic circuits are just amplifiers of the “nano� signal supplied at the moment of detection.

The bigger sensor that surrounds the perimeter of the boardcircuit, is a sensor which reinforces the creation of the electrostatic field when moving the detector to locate any target.



11 – Center and Deep



As it was explained, ionization is the process of lossing atomic weight and generation of electrostatics by movement, friction, etc. according to the german scientist Loeb.

When moving the Center & Deep, it generates a ionic/electrostatic field, first by the movement, then by the substance generator of ions inside the Center & Deep chamber. The movement generates a “crash� , as explained before. This phenomenom just occurs when you have already found a target and there is an existent field around the buried object. For this phenomenom to occurs it is not necessary to supply any tension to the Center and Deep. It uses part of the energy which is in the located field.







The explanations detailed here are not exhaustive to the issue of LRDD, however I think they are enough for the time being for you to understand the basis of this new invention. Anyway please feel free to contact me to keep on exchanging ideas about Long Range Detection.









Awaiting your news,





Best Regards,









Damásio & Alonso

Inventors

MINEORO

Long Range Directional Detector with Classifier









JPFD/pce

[FrancoItaly]

Hi Esteban,

I repeat my previous post: as you have a working long range detector you can try to detect a gold/iron ground battery.
Also if it's not like a long buried target I think that near the ground battery it's possible some kind of reaction of the detector...

[Esteban]

FrancoItaly:
In the same way, is more cheap a copper-iron battery or copper-steel or copper-zinc. :)

We conducting this experiment: heat at light Sun for half or 1 hour a regular piece of copper and was detectable at 2 meters... What creates this?

Regarding this: over a copper plate put a zinc piece wich touch in the extremes of the plate. Leave at strong light Sun for half or 1 hour and connect a tester and measure the voltage, this is a galvanic-solar battery.

After the experiment, can cook hot-dogs::D

[FrancoItaly]

Hi Esteban;

Only a problem: I don't like hot-dogs!! ;)

I prefer hot-golds!!! :cool:

[ivconic]

:)
Some details more on Negative Ion detector:
555 circuit generates voltage pulses at an adjustable rate
of between 0.6 and 4 Hz. The amplitude is also adjustable
between 0.xx and xx volts(dependable on type of transformer), in
this case it should be over 15 volts.The highest pulse energy
supplied by the generator is limited to a value of about
0.5mJ when using 10/25 cap.More energy needs higher cap.
In this case it is limited due to fact that a dish is an
"open&free flow" element in present design.555 circuit is
used as astable multivibrator.Output freq.is adjusted with
preset 100K.Bc107 and preset pot.10K form voltage source. The
condenser 10/25 is charged via resistor 4k7.Amplitude is preset with
pot.10k. Output resistance of 555 with cap.474 cause tr. BC337
to conduct 0.5ms of time.Whole action is monitored by flashing led.
Transformer is small signal transformer with 1/1.5 rate. It also
present a typical band pass for only certain freqs.Applying
different transformer would change overall performance and it'll
need quite different design.Secondary output signal of transformer
is rectified
with two diodes due to positive polarisation of the dish.An 105
cap. is coupled on dish side to provide almost continous feeding
with very smooth droops, due to prevent phenomenon reverse "spikes".
A value of 105 could be debated.Also diodes could be reversed due
to reverse polarisation of the dish.Dish is choosen cose of it's
wider plane, also "cage" can be applied, for narrow plane.
Ultra high impendance input is used in a bootstrap manner.Input
resistance is is boosted artificially to a high value.The simmilar
second input is applied with a slice different amp.level.Both are
fed to a diff.amp, and only a slice drift occur on the output.The
rest of the stages need not to be explained and can be be applied in
a various diff. manner.The main idea was to offer a diff. solution
in matter of ions detection....
Now, about metal(ore,gold,relics) detection.
I can agree with J Player in question of efficacy of this design in
long range metal detecting.It still has to be tested. I can also
agree in some Esteban overwievs.I found very interesting that Anker
post. Many of claims in there i can agree with.
Lets presume that it can detect metal burried in to ground deep,and
respecting some claims from Anker's post it should work as well.
But still I can not offer any possibility of discriminating
collected "signals", only a primary choice of detecting negative or
positive ions defined in the design already. Does ions really carry
their origin, I don't know. I dont think so! Also I can not agree
with claim from Anker'post:
"Electrostatic, when moving , is like a radio frequency wave which has the
property of “carrying� various signals, such as: audio, digital information,
video signals, color signals and many others. Electrostatics is like a transportation..."
It is too good to be true!As a radio amateur for over 20 years i do have
some knowledge in that matters.Comparing electrostatic with radio frequency
behaviour....ts!ts!ts! A huge mismatch!!!
and another:
"This explains the substance classifier. When the negative “ion� finds its twin
of opposite polarity, they love each other so intensively, that when they get
together they provoke a short-circuit autodestroying themselves. As in the Romeo
and Juliet movie, both of them die, but the proof of their death is a flask of
poison near them; in the same way, our “passionate ions� also leave a proof of
their death in “emiting a crash�, which generates an electrical signal so fast
as nano, pico, femto or atto seconds , detectable in sensitive electronic circuits
and projected for this aim..."
Again not true! Ions have tendency to adjoin very fast, therefore their journey
does'nt last long! This explain short range detection of ions. Negative ion does'nt
need to find its twin by origin, only by polarity, otherwise polarisation and use of
dish or cage would be a nonsence, or in the present case, device should detect only
ions with Al origin(since i advised Al dish)!!! It's simply not a true!
"...short-circuit autodestroying themselves..."
In that case I am wondering my self about that telescopic antena !? It's gonna
get thin, melt and "die hard", very fast in front of my eyes!?
And so on, and so on. Enough theory!
I can fully agree with J Player's doubt. Let's build that device and check it!
Only problem is where to find a long time burried gold to check it!?
If we know where to find that gold, than we don't need a detector!Ha,ha,ha.
Again J Player noted very smart:
"What Ivconic told us when he posted the schematic is: "Only one claim:
this device at least do something, despite some commercial devices do nothing!"

Yes. I was affraid to be confused by others as a "beleiver".I am skeptic, not a
"beleiver", but still I do have an open mind for alternative stuff, only I do
always insist
on some proofs, double-blind tests...etc.LRL sounds to good to be true.
As a long time prospector I would like most of all that LRL is able to do what
some people claims. It will turn my prospecting in to a easy walk on the field,
and put some easy money in my pockets.Sad but true it is not a case so far.
But as i really do have an open mind i still grow hope that some day LRL can be
a reallity for all people not just for "chosen" one.
regards!

P.S.
This ion detector is still very interesting, and I would like to see some
mods here, esspecially on the second stage, where the output signal is processed
after the diff.amp. I think that part of design is poor and need some
improvements.Can anybody post schematic of buffer stage after that diff. amp
for both: audio and scale metter.FrancoItaly noticed that 1mF tantal and the rest
on the right side can be better designed.I can agree.Anybody has any idea?
(people! show some schematics like Esteban,not just retorics...)

[Carl-NC]

I have been out-of-town, trying to catch up on everything... this is a very interesting thread, and exactly what this forum is intended for. Thanks for all the contributions.

Just a note... when you upload an attachment (image), please keep the size reasonable... 600-800 pixels wide is ideal.

- Carl

[Anker]

The Regard!

For checking the functioning the scheme of the detector possible to do the artificial generator "golden" negative (or positive) ion. This will imitate long ago hidden gold in ground. It is Enough to do the needle (the edge) from gild and tax on it for the land high power. The Device to execute in the manner of sticks, which possible install in the ground and provide the contact with the ground, on the other end of the stick - a generator ion. Now possible try to take the receiver on a certain distance flow blown off wind "golden" ion.

[J_Player]

In response to Esteban's and Ivconic's posts, I also would like to see a test that shows whether this machine can locate buried treasure. Since

Estaban has a test area with long buried targets samples, we already have a good test bed among the readers in this forum. And we have the circuit and expertise to build the ion detector machine.
I propose that an inexpensive ion detector is built using Ivconic's circuit and then tested to locate targets that have been buried a long time. This circuit can be built on 2 or 3 hobby perf-boards for a very low cost, and the antenna and dish can be salvaged for no cost. When this machine is completed and tested for finding ions, then I propose we use Esteban's test area to see how well the ion detector works. Then we can test the machine to see if it tells us where to find the targets.

This is how I propose that we can do this: First, Ivconic should build the detectror circuit and tune it and test it to insure that it works for collecting ions. Then send only the circuit boards to me along with trim pots connected (this is to make inexpensive shipping cost). I will install new batteries and build a new enclosure and dish and antenna. I will make preliminary tests to adjust the detector so it detects ions from known ion sources. Once it works, then I will go to Esteban's sample field along with any other forum members who want to watch, and we can see how well this machine works at locating the buried samples. This will also be a good opportunity to test the iron "ground battery" effects that Franco talks about.

I propose this test only if Ivconic and Esteban are willing to proceed. If Ivconic and Esteban are interested in testing this negative ion machine on Esteban's long-buried target sample field, then please contact me and make arrangements. J_Player59 at hotmail.

PS. I will also bring hot dogs for zinc grill, but would be better carne asada burritos.http://thunting.com/geotech/forums/images/icons/icon10.gif

My more detailed comments about the posts are below.

[J_Player]

Thank you Esteban, Anker, Franco and Ivconic for your information about using the negative ion detector.

Esteban has provided a very detailed method to use the ion detector. His method is to walk with the machine in hand, swinging the machine right and left as you walk. The machine should be held at a 90 degree angle away from the body while swinging it right to left and looking for variations in the signal. This method sounds similar to the method of using a conventional coil metal detector, except the ion detector is held at arm's height above the ground while walking perhaps a little faster than a person with a coil type detector would walk. When the target is located by a rapid rise in the signal, then it is pinpointed by walking in the other direction, similar to a method of pinpointing a target with a coil type deteector. Esteban cautions us to use the ion detector inland in locations away from high voltage power lines and other interference.

According to Esteban's explanation, the ion detector can be expected to locate ions or electrostatic field gradients in the vicinity of the buried target, but only if the target had been buried for a number of years. He says the buried metal target will develop an electric field around it or a field like the field surrounding a pole of a battery. This field is responsible for the signal seen on the negative ion detector according to Esteban.

According to Franco's theory, a ground battery can be made by putting 2 dissimilar metal objects in the ground 2 meters apart. And this ground battery can be detected with the ion detector because of the electric field of the ground battery. He apparently is talking about metal objects that have been recently placed in the ground.

Anker has posted the theory of operation of the Mineoro LRLs as told by a Damásio & Alonso from the Mineoro company. Portions of the Mineoro letter agree with statements that Esteban and Franco made about ions and electric fields. Much of this letter is simply theories advanced by Damásio & Alonso from Mineoro to explain their understanding of how the Minero devices work.

Ivconic returned and made comments to indicate he a skeptic who does not know if this machine can find treasure. He considers it only an electronic device that measures changes in the ion density in the air, and more testing is needed to see if it can locate long buried gold. After noting a mumber of apparent errors in Damásio & Alonso's theories, he goes on to say that he would like to see improvements in the signal processing portion of the ion detector.

My commentary is as follows:

1. Now we have a method of using the Ion detector, and an explanation of how it can be used to locate buried treasures from Esteban.

2. Ivconic asks about mods in the signal processing after the differential amp. I suppose any kind of signal processing can be done if we first know what we want to find out about the signal. If you want to find audio signals, then you can add a circuit with an adjustable bandpass filter that feeds to a small audio amp or rectifier to a meter. I would think that until we know what we are looking for the best information about the signal can be seen on an oscillosope. By testing the ion detector with different targets and looking at the signal with an oscilloscope, we can learn what are the important features of the signal to look for when locating treasures. After the testing is done, then we can easily build circuits that measure the treasure information in the signal.

Concerning the field and battery effect of buried objects, and how the ion detector senses the location of the object:

3. Battery effect not so strong as a commercial battery: We all know that if we put dissimilar metals in an electrolyte, we can expect a current to flow in a wire connected between the metals. We know there are ions being created and destroyed at the poles of the battery. These ions are generally confined to the electrolyte and they do not migrate to the atmosmphere in any significant amount for most batteries. Most of the ionic action takes place while a battery is being discharged or charged. A lesser amount of ionic activity occurs in a battery that is not connected to an active circuit. In order for a "ground battery" to work, it seems there must be moisture in the ground where the poles of the battery are. There must also be an electrolyte dissolved in the moisture. In the case of buried gold, which is considered inert, and any ions formed will be very small amount of gold atoms combining with the electrolyte (probably a salt of chlorine or a sulfate in the presence of moisture will form the electrolyte). If a few of the gold atoms combine with the electrolyte, then still the gold will become a cathode, as it is the least reactive of the metals to be found in the ground. The anode will be nearly any other element in the near vicinity of the buried gold which has contact with the same mousture and electrolyte. Nearly all common metals are more reactive than gold, and will become the anode if in close proximity to the gold. The most likely metal would be iron (black sands, magnetite, etc. In the regions where natural gold nuggets are found, we often find silver, copper, lead and traces of other metals. Any of these metals present could also become an anode. The anode would be decomposing as it reacted with the electrolyte, while the gold would remain relatively intact. If this "ground battery" were to be 100% efficient (as good as a gold/iron battery made in a laboratory with a suitable electrolyte), then the battery would develop less than 2 volts. The "ground battery" is not in these ideal conditions, and can be expected to develop a lower voltage and fewer ions. In many cases The ground battery has only damp soil or sands to form the electrolyte from elements in contact with the moisture.

4. Ionic activity from the "ground battery": There may be a mechanism by which airborne ions are sensed in a higher concentration above the buried target. I doubt that the mechanism is from Ions leaving the soil and migrating upwards through the air to the ion detector dish. If for some unexplained reason ions were leaving the buried target soil at a high rate, then it is not likely these ions would hover above the target without blowing away in the wind. I don't know what the actual mechanism is, but I doubt the detector is sensing ions that moved from the electrolyte of the "ground battery" to the air above, where the detector is located at arm'sheight. A simple experiment could be made to test this theory: Place a large plastic bag over the ground were the target is buried. place a similar bag over the ground where no target is buried. After waiting a few hours for the ions to accumulate in the bag, close the bottom of both bags and move them to where the ion detector is. You should now be able to sense a very high concentration of airborne ions from the bag that was over the target, but not from the other bag. My opinion is that if the ion detector finds more ion signal in the air above the area where the gold is buried, then these ions being detected did not originate in the ground electrolyte from the battery. There may be some connection to the underground gold, but it is hard for me to believe that ion migration into the air is the answer.

5. Electric field from ground battery: An electric field will exist in a battery which shows a voltage across the poles. This electric field is no stronger than the voltage over the distance that separates the poles. That is to say it is a very weak electric field, less than 2 volts over the distance between the gold and other metal in the damp soil. There also may be some mechanism that causes increased electric field measured at arm's height in the air above the buried target. I doubt this mechanism is the electric field produced from the ground battery effect. The 9v batteries that power the ion detector have a stronger electric field than the ground battery can create from it's electrolytic voltage generation (if it does in fact create a voltage). Consider: In dry air, it takes about 4000 volts to create a strong enough electric field that the air will ionize enough to throw a spark 1 cm. The static electric field that you can pick up from walking on the gound can easily become higher than this. The electric field caused by atmospheric conditions can be much greater than this. It is hard for me to imagine the ion detector measuring an electrical field from a source less than 2 volts under the ground when there are so many stronger electric fields from stray sources in the air where the detector is. I may be wrong, but It would be interesting to see some tests that tell us the answer.

In conclusion, I dont' say that the ion detector does not respond to a buried target. I say only that if it responds to a buried target, then the reason why it responds does not seem to be exactly the same as theories we have heard so far.

[FrancoItaly]

Hi All

I noticed in Ivconic's circuit that there is not capacitor between pin 2/6 and ground of LM555' stage, this capacitor would determine the output frefrequency..

[Dell Winders]

In conclusion, I dont' say that the ion detector does not respond to a buried target. I say only that if it responds to a buried target, then the reason why it responds does not seem to be exactly the same as theories we have heard so far.

In my opinion, the Mineoro, does NOT actually detect the presence of an underground target. It does detect the "field" of the target at the surface above the ground. With other electronic LRL instruments I've detected the discriminated "field's" of concentrations of clusters of Gold from an aircraft at altitudes as much as 3000 feet above the earth.

In the early 1990's a NOVA TV documentary showed a division of NASA had developed the same method of discriminating the "field" of underground anomalies from an aircraft. The difference was we had spent about $70,000 to develop an analog prototype, and the division of NASA had invested over $1 million in a computerized version. We both used conventional geophysical methods and Ground truthing to verify our locations.

The idea of long time buried Gold being detectable vs freshly buried Gold not being detectable was originated by Claude Cochran, an LRL super salesman during the late 1989's as a competetive advertising scheme.

In my experience, It is true that the deeper fresh Gold is buried, the longer it will take for the "Field" to reach the surface where the "field' might be detected. Certain geologic conditions appear to not allow the concentrated earth "field" around some sub-terrain Gold buried even for thousands of years to ever reach the surface and therefore not all Gold will be detectable using this Remote sensing concept.

In my Field testing of the Mineoro, I used a 1 ounce Gokl Krugerand, lieing on the surface of the ground to tune the Mineoro, and specifically to determine if the target SOF was strong enough to be within the Mineoro's operating limitations. When the SOF was strong, the Mineoro, detected the unburied Gold from a distance of 12-15 feet. When SOF conditions were weak, the Mineoro would not detect the "field" of the un-buried Gold, and also, it would not detect the "field" of the long time buried Gold either. This is consistent with All LRL's I've used, or tested, whether electronic, or non-electronic.

At least some understanding of the Physics that are being applied are an integral part to the electronic development this remote sensing concept.

I hope my field experience provides some "food for thought". Good Luck!

"WHAT HAS BEEN DONE, CAN BE DONE" Dell

[Esteban]

Hi IONFINDERS!!!

Some considerations:

1. I have different "proof fields" and sometimes I don't obtain the necessary signal to conclude if work or not work X experimental machine or X Mineoro model. So, my team and I makes short (one day) or large trips (3-4 days) for to examine the situation. As treasure can't find all the days and also as nobody knows where is it, decide to probe this "gadgets" in natural fields. The more secure sites you can probe to respond your devices are battlefields, soldiers encampments, ruins or old houses. In this sites there are real old targets and we can to comprobe the efectivesness or not of different machines.

2. Long distance detector (10, 20, 30, 40 50 m are long distance for me) needs delicate threshold adjustment (sensibility in the limit) in stable point. With this characteristics, is possible to find conductive targets.

3. Very wet ambient shortcircuited the field.

4. Sunny days are better.

5. Ferriferous soils in high iron's concentration (main in zone of iron mines) nulliffy the signal for small items. Don't know for treasure, maybe not.

[J_Player]

Ummm... Dell,

This thread is about an electronic ion detector, not about any Mineoro device. The ion detector we are discussing is wholly an electronic device that works with standard electronic circuitry. There are no bait loads or treasure frequencies involved, only a standard circuit to detect negative ions the same as any commercially available negative ion detector. This machine is in no way related to the Mineoro machine from the previous thread.

But as long as you opened the topic, when will you find time to answer the questions I ased about the Mineoro machine and other LRLs in your TA forum? Please answer the questions in that thread rather than here where we are discussing the refinements of an electronic ion detector.

In my opinion you probably know more about the principles of LRL detection than anyone else using a Mineoro type device. It would be interesting to see how they work in your opinion. Are you aware that at least one of the scientists who built the NASA LRL that discriminated the field of underground anomolities was a closet dowser, hesitant to let his colleagues know that he sometimes used "L" rods to confirm their findings?

[FrancoItaly]

HI J PLAYER

It’s true that ground battery formed by gold and other metals/minerals it gives low voltage, may be 1 volt or less, but for long buried gold the battery takes up 50 meters or plus in all directions and the voltage can appear to the ground surface. 1 volt is 1/100 of the static atmospheric voltage at 1 meter above the ground and it may be detected easy by every home made electronic instrument. Ordinary metal detectors work with signal less than 1 mV…

[J_Player]

Hi Franco,

You may be right. Maybe the ion detector will find the ground battery. Maybe I am wrong and atmospheric interference is not so strong as obscure the field from the ground battery when measuring the air ions. Keep in mind that when ordinary metal detectors measure less than 1 mv signal, this is induced voltage from eddy currents that were caused by the search coil. The ordinary metal detector is detecting an electromagnetic wave that is expected to arrive at a very specific time (PI), or a deformity in the elelctromagnec field of the search coil (non-PI). This is not the same as trying to detect static electric fields 4 feet above the ground.

I think it is time to build the ion detector and find out what it will measure. Then we can see for ourselves what it will measure and will not measure. This machine is very inexpensive to build. most of the parts are cheap or free from salvged equipment. My problem is I do not have the proper facility to construct the circuit. I can build the mechanical part if someone else builds the circuit boards with electronics.

So far nobody except Estseban has given us any practical information how to use this machine, and I think the only way we will learn how it works is to build the detector and learn from experience.

[Dell Winders]

I guess what I am trying to say is that it appears to me that all these types of devices operate on the same principles of physics with slightly different variations of application.

The one common denominator that I have observed is that 18 years of residual effects of Solar magnetic activity greatly affects the operation of all these devices, as well as Magnetometer, and to a lesser degree the depth penetration of conventional metal detectors.

The conditions when these electronic, or non-electronic devices will work, or will not work, has been consistently predictable whether I am using electronic metering, or a pair of Dowsing rods to meter the Strength of Field (SOF) suffecient for these devices to operate.

To put it bluntly, there are magnetic conditions and fluxuations in which none of these devices will function effeciently, or will even work. This can be a problem with testing your design.

I was using the Mineoro, as an example because you were speaking of an Ion detector, which is the scientific principle the Mineoro, claims to be using.

I have never field tested the posted schematic, but If this schematic is indeed intended as a Gold discriminating Ion detector, and comparing it with the Mineoro field results, I suspect it will be affected by the same limitations as all other LRL remote sensing devices, whether electronic, or non-electronic.

Not that I personally care, but I'm trying to be helpful by suggesting it as a consideration in your modifications of componnents to be included in the schematic.

I probably am intruding in the electronic engineering, which admittedly I know nothing about. Sorry! I mean no offense. I'll stay out of it, unless asked. Dell

[ivconic]

:p
"First, Ivconic should build the detectror circuit and tune it and test it to insure that
it works for collecting ions. Then send only the circuit boards to me along with trim pots
connected (this is to make inexpensive shipping cost)."
Huh! A whole cost to build that ions detector would be $20-$30, for you J PLayer.Since I am
living in Europe, in Serbia, what do you mean, how much it is gonna take for me to send to
you assmebled pcb!? Incuding shipment and anoyance through post and other stuff. Serbia is not
even a member of european community, so there is no way to send enything by usual channels
like it is a case in the rest of Europe.Costs would overcome $100 and more!Forget about that.
If you want to check that device than you have to build it yourself.
I made it for some time. It is working and it is detecting ions for real.
I checked it as follows:
I made a long time ago a Tesla coil, which is producing a high voltage, over the 5000 volts.
I added to it a typical tv cascade to obtain higher voltage, over 17 000 Volts. Output is
connected to a metal ball. In it's nearby (aprox. 15cm) is a ground plate.So when is switched on
it produce a giant sparks, and you can see a voltage crossing through the air....etc.
I guess all of you already know about Tesla's coils, and how they are working.
It is producing a clouds of ions in no time! In a minute or two my lab is full of them and i can
even feel and smell ionizied air. It has pleasant taste an it is good for respiration for a
10-20 minutes per day. It is a sort of ozone. Now, what you have to do is to switch on the
detector and you gonna detect ions easy. Because the concentration in a closed space is on
a high level, i repeated a test outdoor of my house. The detection is still good,loud and
clear.I was rambled backwards for about 20 metres and the detection was still unchanged.
On 21. metre the detection decay a bit by bit as i rambled more.After aprox. 25 metres there
was no detection any more. So it seems that it's shows all the results by this test.
About burried metals i don't know really. I do have a sort of test field with coins,metal
pieces and one big,old transmission from some used car, burried in about 2 metres deep.
I tried to detect it with no results at all! It was some clicking in the speaker but as any
where else on the field, nothing like a real detection!
That's why i posted some ideas about improving late stages on the device.
I think that input stage is good enough.I think that problem is with a further processing.
One more thing, during the test i switched off a 555 part of the device, and guess what?
The detection was attenuated appreciably, and some other weak noises occured.
So the 555(polarisation of dish) is acting very important role in the project.
Right now that device is reassembled on the desk and wait for improvements. I was thinking
to do that by my own, but have no idea.So i decide to stop for a while and wait for some
better solutions. Since i am working parallel on several projects like resistivity meter,
copy of some IB Minelab, one MD3007 and one PI, i am very abstracted to think only on
this project. That's why i posted schematic here and wait for your opinions. And it seems
very productive, all of your posts shows some good ideas here.
I am very restless to see somebody's else expirience with this ionic detector.
......
FrancoItaly
"I noticed in Ivconic's circuit that there is not capacitor between pin 2/6 and ground
of LM555' stage, this capacitor would determine the output frefrequency.."
JESUS !!!! It is true ! I am sorry i missed that! Here is a reclamation....

regards!

[J_Player]

Hi Ivconic,

You are right. It is not a good idea to send a circuit. The cost of the parts is not a problem for me. I cannot build this circuit because I do not have the facilities to build and test it. It will be another 6 months before I have the proper tools and test meters to make simple circuit boards with electronics like the ion detector. So we will need to rely on someone else to build and test this machine.

It seems to me that this machine will only detect ions. If we want more information from the signal then first we must know what kind of information we are looking for. I expect many of the variations will depend on where we move the dish. But maybe there are signal variations that come from different targets. The variations in signal from different targets can only be found by experimenting with known targets.

One idea you could try is to put an iron rod in the ground 2 meters away from where you buried the targets, and see if the detector will find the electric field from the "ground battery" as Franco says.

[J_Player]

Hi Dell,

Thanks for the tips. You are answering some of the questions I asked in another thread. I suppose you have chosen to post your answers here instead of the TA forum. Your comments do appear to apply to the negative ion detector, but they are really comments aboout LRLs in general. In order that you will have a proper place to elaborate, I will open a new thread, restating what you have said about SOF and LRLs where we can ask questions without straying away from the ion detector. Your information should be good for all LRLs that work on the principles you are talking about, and will be a valuable resource for all who want to know the theory of how LRLs work from an expert with decades of experience. Look for the new thread.

Thanks in advance for the help in LRL theory

[FrancoItaly]

Hi All,

I don't think that Ivconics' ion detector is only a traditional instrument, I find very interesting the first stage of LM555, this is not only a way to increase tha battery voltage as we can have a better efficiency with a more suitable frequency, but the very low frequency plays an important role. I'm sure that on the Dish there is a little AC component and I ask to Ivconic if He can meausure the voltage on the Dish with a analogue voltmeter: the needle should be to tremble.
I have tested a LM358 circuit with many trasformers ( I have not a old modem to sacrifice!) at very low frequency and the output voltage is very poor, only few volts and I doubt that it's possible to obtain 15 volt with a frequency of only 1 Hz.

[J_Player]

It would be interesting to add some filter circuitry to the charging circuit that can be switched on and off. Then we could see if the filtered charging makes any difference when looking for ions. It also seem that if this charging frequency plays a part in the ion detection, then we might see differences when we change the frequency at the 555. I would suggest that if this frequency is adjusted, it might be good to add a circuit that automatically adjusts the gain at BC107 to keep the dish voltage constant.

[FrancoItaly]

Hi All

The best solution in my opinion for the LM555 stage it's a DC to DC conversion by an oscillator of 1 khz or more in according with resonance frequency of the trasformer and then we may use LM555 oscillator or 2 X BC107 as astable
multivibrator with a voltage up to 50 volt. I think that the voltage on Dish is it' subordinate to its physical dimentions.
My next steep will be to build a mix of ZAHORI and Ivconics' circuit without LM555 stage and with a only stage in high impedance imput... I think that ZAHORI it was the founder of the long range family... perhaps also Minero...

[ivconic]

To FrancoItaly
Franco You can not possibly expect LM358 to act like 555 !?
Power supply is already 9V ! As I told before, no need for regulator at
all.That is the catch!Concerning all mentioned just remember a transf.
rate 1/1.5 (aprox....it should be a bit more).And freq.can vary from
1-5Hz (i think).Voltage is aprox. 15 v. We don't have to be neat in %.
About AC component, yes there is a "microscopic" tremble.About those
rect.diodes....they can be debated so.About other transformers...I
really don't know, I never tried any other type.56K modems, here are
very cheap 5-6 euros, mostly "made in China" stuff.But transformer
has some code I mentioned before, and I met some types with Motorola
logo on.Resistance is 45 ohm and 75 ohm, although my DVM maybe is not
so precise.
...............
I agree J Player.
...............
One more thing again.I would rather pay attention to improve stage which
comes after second TLC272. Until that point everything looks nice to me.
It will take more stages,buffers...i don't know. It just has to be
experimented with.

[FrancoItaly]

Hi Ivconics,
For our purpose I think that the LM358, double single supply operational,it can easy replace the LM555: it has a frequency range of 1 Mhz and a current output of 50 ma...
I use it very often and I have a circuit board with this IC for ewperimental uses. Do you have measured a voltage of 15 Volts between Dish and ground?

[FrancoItaly]

Hi All

Look for theese link:

http://www.vlf.it/kurt/elf.html (http://www.vlf.it/kurt/elf.html)

http://www.vlf.it/Schumann/schumann.htm (http://www.vlf.it/Schumann/schumann.htm)

http://www.vlf.it/below150/below150.htm (http://www.vlf.it/below150/below150.htm)

http://www.vlf.it/parmigiani-frozen/frlight.htm (http://www.vlf.it/parmigiani-frozen/frlight.htm)

A Ulf receiver with an E-field antenna it’s very similar to an ion detector, it can receive Schumann frequency, it may be that ground battery troubles Schumann signals?

[Esteban]

Here a lot of interesting projects:

http://www.vlf.it/

[J_Player]

Nice the links, Franco and Esteban.

It seems that these experimenters are interested in the frequencies they are seing displayed on an oscilloscope, while the ion detector is only looking at relative changes in the static ion/electric fields.

If we were to look at the signal at the output of the ion detector on an oscilloscope, then we would be able so see if there are frequencies or noise being sensed at the antenna. This Ion detector should be as sensitive as the detectors in the links shown above if we have a way to see the signal coming from the antenna better than a speaker and analog meter. The oscilloscope shown in the first link is actually a PC that uses the signal converter (probably on the sound card) to display the signl from the sensior circuit. I presume the processed signal is sent into the microphone input or line input, then converted to a voltage that is displayed as an audio wave would be done. The author wrote a C program to create a proper graphic interface that will display the signal with the same scaling as an occilloscope.

He used the inexpensive method instead of using an ordinary oscilloscope. But either way, the key is to find a method to see the full spectrum of the signal that is coming in when we move the dish to different locations with different targets.

A second comment about the low frequency signals that were found on the links above: Many of these signals are man-made signals, For example the low frequency signals that submarines use to communicate from deep under the oceans, and other man-made signals used in power transmission, telemetry, and studies of astronomy, etc. Also, some of these signals appear to be naturally occuring signals which originate in far space, while others seem to originate from within the earth or the earth's atmosphere.
With all these stray signals that are easily measured with sensitive instruments, we are interested in discriminating the signal that will be present when a treasure is in the proximity of the detector.

It is our goal to scan the naturally occuring signals until we see they change in a way that will make us expect there is gold or silver influencing these signals. This is why I think our first step is to take a close look at what signals our sensor is picking up, and learn what are the naturally occuring signals that we should expect. We also need to learn what common environmental anomalies will cause a chang in the signal, so we can predict what should be considered a trash target and what is a good target. This means we should learn what is the influence of a tree nearby, a building, a car driving by, or an airplane, or perhaps how the signal can be expected to change at different times of the day, or different sunspot activity or lunar tides, etc. By becoming familiar with these common influences, we can compensate the detector so it will not confuse us when we are looking for a target.

It seems to me the first step is to connect an oscilloscope to the detector.

[FrancoItaly]

Hi J PLAYER

You have fixed very good the main points of our “problem� . I have a 20 Mhz oscilloscope and other instruments in my lab but I don’t have a portable computer for external measurements.In the past time I have designed a vlf receiver in the range of 500 Hz – 50 Khz with a 2 ferrite coils as antenna and a VCF, a voltage controlled pass band filter, as tuning. Now I can achieve a ULF receiver in the range of 3 – 30 Hz with an E-Field antenna, a very high impedance amplifier, a VCF (I use CA3080 operational), a rectifier stage with a meter. By this “instrument� it would be possible to scan the above mentioned frequencies and to find possible anomaly in the ground (perhaps ground battery, my obsession !!!). I think it’s necessary to use a long handle, like a metal detector, for avoiding body’s influence.

[J_Player]

Hi Franco,

If you have no way to take an aocilloscope in the field, then your filter circuit to detect 3-30 hz can help see the lower end of the spectrum. You should also be able to hear the spectrum from 30-1200 hz on the speaker or headphones.

Here is another Idea: Ther are low-power cmos phase locked loop chips that will follow a frequency, and can be used in conjunction with a cmos decade counter that could change the frequency of what you sense on the signal. The decade counter can take the frequency of the input signal and divide by 10 to allow you to hear signals in the 12,000 to 120,000 hz range, or cascade a second counter for higher frequencies. The input signal to these counters would be sent through a schmidt trigger first with an adjustable threshold to set the sensitivity. I believe the cmos PLL has both an analog and digital input, and the analog signal threshold can be adjusted with trimpots.

These decade counters can also be used to multiply the low frequencies to 10 times higher, so they will produce an audible tone. This is done by using the phase locked loop's oscillator to clock the counter at a rate 10 times faster than the antenna signal, then using the carry from the counter to sync the PLL frequency. The only problem with this frequency multiplier scheme is the amplitude of the signal is lost after the digital stages. Perhaps the amplitude could be recovered by putting the digital signal and the filtered antenna signal into a comparator. The digital signal will have a known voltage, while the filtered antenna signal can be compared and the output could set the gain on the audio amplifier.

If any of this circuitry was to be built, then It would look like a control knob that you adjust to several positions: F/10, Fx1, Fx10, Fx100. Similar to sweep time constants on an oscilloscope, while you listen for the sounds.

It seems to me that a meter is ok for a simple indicator of signal. Audio will tell a lot more information because you can hear frequencies and amplitudes. But oscilloscope is still the best because you will see many things that cannot be heard, and you will be able to enlarge any small detail that you want to see closer. I have seen some small portable oscilloscopes on ebay. Some of the older ones seem like they sell cheap, and can be connected to an inverter at your car battery. Here is an example... maybe there are inexpensive deals like this in your area... http://cgi.ebay.com/Oscilloscope-BK-Precision-1405-potable-light-weight_W0QQitemZ5872489925QQcategoryZ3284QQrdZ1QQc mdZViewItem

[FrancoItaly]

Hi J PLAYER

Thank’ for your hints, I use often the PLL CD4046, it’s a great integrated circuit that has a stable and very linear VCO…

[ivconic]

Hi,people!

I am very busy these days, I simply can not follow you in this very
interesting thread. But ideas are more than inspirative. I would
tell you again, let's just leave for a moment a 555 stage. It is
working just fine and no need for any mods.Let's just focus on further
signal analyze after the second TL272.
Second, I was thinking already to make some experiments with VLF
bellow 150 kHz.Not original at all, I know. Just look at the GISCO
EMFAD UG12, which is basic primer. I was thinking to use already
existent VLF signals from remote TX's as it is the case in UG12.
But further talking about that will dilute this subject of ion detector.
Somebody ask about dish dimensions.It is stated on schematic.
I also made experiment with one plate taken from old 8" ancient hard
disk as a "dish". It will need some experiments too. Many mails come
to me with a questions about real ion detection on the field. It seems
that some people had just skim visits on this thread.People,read this
thread and every post letter by letter! Many questions are already
answered here.It is not productive to talk about same questions here
again and again.(This is not addressed to the registered members here).
I was tested ion detector and it is detecting my "home made" ions for
real! Airborne ions...maybe. Burried gold and relics....NOT! Why?
I guess cose burried stuff do not produce ions at all, or at least, not at
wanted quantity!Than why are we talking about that device here on
forum like this one!? Because huge number of people are still beleive
in that theory that burried things can be detected by detection of ions.
I can not disallow that theory as i can not prove it either.But it will
take more experiments and mutual contributions to establish some firmly
attitude on that matter.Until that, i can agree or disagree with both
sides in many points. Delayed tribute to Dell for his contribution on
this thread, although i would be very joyous if we switch from very
academic to some more practical talk here.I mean more schematics,less
talks.Schematics do talk it self.Mods,schematics....schematics..mods.
J PLayer mentioned some ways how to further analyze signal from detected
ions.That is the point! J Player can you post some schematic on that here?
.....
regards

P.S.

FrancoItaly
"Hi Ivconics,For our purpose I think that the LM358, double single supply
operational,it can easy replace the LM555: it has a frequency range of 1 Mhz
and a current output of 50 ma...I use it very often and I have a circuit board
with this IC for experimental uses. Do you have measured a voltage of 15 Volts
between Dish and ground?"

Yes.Between 13.5 to 15.xx volts. About LM358...maybe so! But why wasting time
on that? 555 is just fine.You are straying of the main problem.What we need
from that stage, 555 is already providing.Again no need for higher voltage.
Higher voltage on the dish is a mismatch.Higher freq. on the dish is a huge
mismatch.1 to 5, even 10 Hz is just fine. Starting point here is that we supposed
to deal with ions, not with any kind of waves.Unlike in the ANKER post where
we had a case of nonsence explanations and jumbled various scientific principles.
Again leave that stage unchanged and focus on the further inspection of received
signal.Regards to you friend.

[Qiaozhi]

... although i would be very joyous if we switch from very
academic to some more practical talk here.I mean more schematics,less
talks.Schematics do talk it self.Mods,schematics....schematics..mods.


Good idea. More real design amd less evasive talking.
Also - Ivconic is correct - forget about replacing the 555 timer. It's only there to provide an energizing voltage to the dish.

[robert]

:mad:
I spend a some time to build that ionic detector and it is not working at all!
Is it a joke or what?
Even a TL... burned!
Is there any mistake in the schem.? Any body help?

[J_Player]

Ivconic built this machine and it is working fine for him. There are 2 parts to the detector: The charging circuit, and the sensing circuit. You can test the charging circuit with a digital volt meter. Connect between the dish and the battery ground. you should have at least 12 volts. if not there is a problem in the charging circuit that needs to be corrected.

The sensing circuit is seperate from the charging circuit. There should be no connection between the two. Test for continuity between the ground of charging circuit and the ground of the sensor circuit. if it is less than 1 meg ohm then I would look for where the leak is. Also test between the antenna and dish. This should also be more than 1 meg ohm. If you find these two circuits are connected, then there is a chance of damage to the TL op amps.

If these 2 tests test ok, then the remaining sensing circuit is a simple differential amplifier and power amp stages to run a speaker and meter. You can test each stage at a time to locate the problem. be careful with the TLC271 and TLC272. These are FET devices and can be easily damaged if you touch the leads when you have a static charge on your hands. Use a grounding strap on your wrist.

[J_Player]

Here is a simpler design for an ion detector based on a very easy ion detector at this link: http://www.zen22142.zen.co.uk/Circuits/Misc/staticdet.htm

The author says his detector works for finding ions in the air around ion sources. It is a sensitive detector because of the high impedance FET, but maybe not as sensitive as Ivconic's design with 2-stage FET amplifier.

My modified version of the simple circuit is below, for use with headphones. I have not tested this circuit, so some of the front end resistors at the FET may need to be adjusted. The audio amp portion is a working model that will make sound for any headphones from 8 ohms to high impedance. The dish charge is adjusted between 12 and 18 volts directly from the batteries and a potentiometer, thus eliminating the seperate charging circuit. This method of charging may introduce more noise into the signal, but maybe not.

[goldfinder]

Hi J Player,
the circuit you referenced is the one I built and it works fine for electrostatic fields but is lousy for a strict ion detector as one cannot tell the difference between ions and electrostatic field with it. What is needed is a true ion detector. Now, your mods with the charged antenna might do the trick; however, I doubt it. The FEt can't distinguish.

So this may point to the IVCONC circuit having the same problem since the opamp he is using has a high impedance FET frontend. So maybe we haven't gotten anywhere.

Hello IVCONIC,
What you say on this? Do you have any evidence that your circuit also detects electrostatic fields? I suppose its possible that the antenna will shield out the ES fields and also seperate/filter the ions so only ions get to the center probe antenna. If that is the case I'd go for the J_Player circuit mod. I KNOW that 3819 FET is extremely sensitive. It will detect a flea scratching his ear from 10 feet (haha).

Goldfinder

[J_Player]

Hi Goldfinder, thanks for the input.
I am not certain of this, But I think that in air, you will find find ions where you find an electostatic field, and vica versa. Even though the two are different, I think they always exist together in air. If I am right, then I would expect to sense ions and electrostatic fields in the same place and the same concentration. But I may be wrong. Ivconic says he can easily detect ions from any ion source, and I believe he said he can detect electrostatic fields too.

It would seem that with insulated gate mos input, and a positive charged dish around the antenna, either circuit would pick up the signal just as well. The only difference I see is the higher degree of amplification in Ivconic's circuit. This is why I speculate that your circuit may be just as suitable as Ivconic's. I also feel that adding an audio circuit is an enhancement that will tell more about the signal in terms of audio frequencies that may be present. And I wonder if looking at the signal with an oscilloscope would tell information about the source of the ions or electrostatic field. Ivconic may have some answers.

[J_Player]

Hi goldfinder,
After reading about the 400mv charge in most plants, I came to the same conclusion as what you found in your field test.

As far as a special field around buried gold, there is a lot of evidence from conventional detectorists to support this. Many detectorists talk about a "halo" around old coins and gold they find. They say they get a really strong signal on their metal detector, as if the coin is much bigger than what they actually dig up. But after digging up the coin, it then gives a normal signal, even if they bury it again. The explanation I heard is these coins develop oxides and other salts around them after they are in the ground for a long time. Apparently it takes a lot longer for gold because it more inert than silver, copper and other metals used in coins and jewelry. But even gold does form a very thin film of oxides and other salts after it has been in the ground long enough (most gold has a certain amount of copper or silver alloyed that will also corrode slightly at the surface and leach into the soil over time).

The inference is that as the metal piece corroded, oxides and salts were leached into the soil immediately adjacent to the metal piece, helping to create an electrolyte, and possibly a battery that reacted with other metals or minerals in the nearby ground. By digging up the metal piece, it was removed from it's long-developing battery environment. Replacing it in the ground will then give the same signal as any other new coin that will not develop a halo until it has time to oxidize at the surface. At least this is how some detectorists explain it.

If LRL detectorists are able to sense static fields, then I would think the voltage of plants as well as other objects above the ground heavily interfere with any field caused by a buried coin. Also, I cannot imagine any line of ions transporting from a buried object into the air and directly to a LRL sensor. It seems to me that all experiments with free ions in air show that the ions will move where the wind blows them, or toward a nearby oppositely charged object. Ions in the free air cannot be expected to move any more strongly than statically charged styrofoam beads would move in the air. It also seems ludicrous that there would be a stream of gold ions escaping into the air from a gold object buried under the ground.

If LRL detectors are actually able to locate buried treasure, I would look for other principles to explain how they work besides that the "stream of ions" theory. So far I have not heard any coherent explanation from a LRL proponent.

The best theories I have heard are centered around sensing existing electromagnic waves from man-made sources as well as natural sources (radio, power transmission, sunspots, earth's magnetic field, etc). The more credible theory is that a person who is dowsing or using a LRL is able to sense variations in these existing fields, and with enough practice, can learn to ignore stray anomolies caused by trees, etc, and focus on buried targets. (This theory does not address para-psychology and metaphysical methods). While there is no known human organ that has been demonstrated to sense these weak anomolies in EM fields, nobody has proven it can't be done by some sensitive people. The only proof I have seen is the apparent success of some dowsers in finding water. I have actually collected a good amount of information about some feasable principles for how dowsing and LRLs work, but they are maybe to involved to put in a post here.

Good luck finding treasure with what ever means work for you.

[J_Player]

Hi Lake,

That's an interesting graph of basalt that develops a voltage. It shows a voltage between about 43 mv and 55 mv that seems to have a daily cycle as well as a cycle that varies over a month. I doubt this voltage is similar to the 400 mv-500 mv measured in plants, because plants are chemical factories that manufacture complex hydrocarbons from water and minerals in the ground, while the rock does not. But from the chart, it is evident that the voltage measured in the rock does vary dependent on geophysical events (daly cycle and possibly lunar cycle or other influences).

After seeing the test made on these rocks, I wonder if some of these same influences will cause the voltage in plants to fluctuate. It seems very likely to me. IF so, then this is something that I would think interferes with dowsing and LRL operation. Possibly it is another thing that LRL users need to learn about to help refine their searching.

[goldfinder]

I built a breadboard test circuit of J_Player ion/ES detector. It works fine except for the audio/headphone. I got nothing on the headphones despite seeing a signal on my Oscope and DVM.

My antenna is a simple rod sticking up from the plugin board. So testing for ions is a waste of time. It does detect electrostatic fields quite well. I had on an acrylic sweater and at about 18 inches the detector was picking up my sweater moving back and forth about 1/4 of an inch due to my breathing. The response was about 300 millivolts.

I will have to mount the circuit in a good metal box and make an antenna for the ion detection test. I presume that the ions will give some kind of quick pulse response. If that works and I can characterize the signal then I'll consider outoutting the signal into a microcontroller and doing a little DSP on it. If my hunch is halfway correct I should be able to distinguish between ES fields and ion pops.

Goldfinder

[goldfinder]

Yes, ions and electrostatic fields coexist. You can have one without the other as anyone with some physics or electronics background would know.

The problem is to be able to distinguish. From analyzing the various commercial detectors they do this in several ways. Some of these suck air into a charged chamber and detect when an where in the chamber the ions are attraced. + ions are attracted to the negative plate of the chamber and vice verse. I looked to me like one of the Mineorotried to do versions did this. In a simplified view, with the proper technique, it is possible to identify ions since the lighter ions will be attracted to the chamber walls before the heavier ones. Ion identification and ion seperation is thus possible.

However, these types of detectors are mostly costly laboratory analysis instruments and unsuited for out in the field usage.

AND no one has come forward to PROVE that buried gold even emits its ions. If this technique works for long buried gold then I suspect the detectors are simply picking up the expanded ionic fied effects in the ground due to ground saturation with corrosion effects from the buried metals.

Now as to ions travelling 4 or 5 feet above the surface of the earth for long distances we only have Mineoro to claim this. There is a well known phenomena in physics that ions are deflected in a magnetic field. The older tube TV sets, the tube monitors of your computer you are sitting in front reading this as well as oscilloscopes all deflecting the electrons (charged particles) and directing them to certain places on the screen. So possibly charged ions coming up from the ground are deflected and guided by the earth's magnetic field which "flows" from south to north. This might account for the claim by Mineoro that detection with their instrument is to scan east/west with the detector looking south (for ions coming north).

All this speculation is just that. Lets build some detectors and see if we can find some buried caches with them. Of course, no one in their right mind would admit they have found anything so possibly we will never resolve this whole thing.

Fun thread anyway!

Goldfinder

[hung]

Yes, ions and electrostatic fields coexist. You can have one without the other as anyone with some physics or electronics background would know.

I looked to me like one of the Mineorotried to do versions did this. In a simplified view, with the proper technique, it is possible to identify ions since the lighter ions will be attracted to the chamber walls before the heavier ones. Ion identification and ion seperation is thus possible.



Congratulations. Finally I see someone admit it, besides me, Esteban or Mineoro. Keep striving..


AND no one has come forward to PROVE that buried gold even emits its ions.

We the users who found gold with the detectors are your best proof.




So possibly charged ions coming up from the ground are deflected and guided by the earth's magnetic field which "flows" from south to north. This might account for the claim by Mineoro that detection with their instrument is to scan east/west with the detector looking south (for ions coming north).

All this speculation is just that. Lets build some detectors and see if we can find some buried caches with them. Of course, no one in their right mind would admit they have found anything so possibly we will never resolve this whole thing.

Ionic fields propagate in an 'egg' shaped pattern. You can check this at Mineoro's site and read the explanation. Pretty sane to me.
In fact all your research would benefit from their information.

Sorry, I don't mean or intend to discourage you people at all. In fact I always wanted to investigate everything I could not fully understand in my life, but Damasio and Alonso spent more than 30 years of their lives to get to the point where Mineoro is now. The discoveries they made are developed into the detectors sold by Mineoro. Yet they are always improving their methods.
How long do you expect would take to 'reinvent the wheel'?

Besides, the time people are spending to figure out how it works, the users are in the field recovering what the detectors were made for.

Best to all.

Fun thread anyway!

Goldfinder[/QUOTE]

[J_Player]

A question for hung:

When goldfinder says "AND no one has come forward to PROVE that buried gold even emits its ions", You say:
"We the users who found gold with the detectors are your best proof".
Now I am asking where is your proof that buried gold emits ions? Can you taste an ion? can you feel it in your LRL? How do you know that your reaction is caused by ions? Did you take measurements with an ion detector to verify that it was ions that caused the reaction? Is it possible that another Geologphysical property caused the reaction? Do you have any proof whatsoever to show that ions are responsible for LRL detection?

Is your only proof centered around unfounded allegations that ions cause you to find gold by using the LRL machines? Or do you have some actual proof that ions are involved in the process? Is the Mineoro propaganda your only source of knowledge about gold ions being resonsible for how it all works?

Do you have any proof that ions are responsible rather than electromagnetic waves? Or rather than isotope emissions? Or rather than static forces of magnetism or electricity? Please tell us what you actually know, not what Mineoro propaganda says.

[J_Player]

Hi goldfinder,
I agree that electrostatic fields can exist without ions, but it seems to me that in free air, there would be an electrostatic field gradient caused by an anomoly in the concentration of ions, and vica versa, even if in small amounts. Maybe I am wrong.

However, If you wanted to measure only ions, then I would suggest that your ion detector is placed inside a metal enclosure that is shielded from any external static fields, and use a small fan to draw samples through the sensor. I would think you could use the same sensor as you originally built, or the differential FET design that Ivconic designed. But the dish should be replaced by a metal tube with the antenna running down the center of the axis. It is important to have the fan draw air from the exhaust end of the detector tube because the motor brushes generate ozone which would be a source of stray ion noise if sent into the tube.

This method will not distinguish what ion molecules you are sensing, only the current generated by the ions sensed. In fact, you will not know if you are sensing ionized molecules or free electrons. I still feel that the best data to be seen from the detector is found by putting an oscilloscope probe on the amplifier output to see the time based fluctuations. This could give valuable information that is not available with a meter or speaker. (I wonder if the reason the audio section I suggested was unresponsive could be because the fluctuations in detected signal were below the audio range -- or above it).

Anyway, it should be easy to replace the dish with a metal tube, and place the whole assembly inside a metal box. The fan and motor could be omitted if there is a breeze to carry samples through the tube.

Remember, we are looking for an anomoly in the concentration of ions in the free air that can lead us to a buried treasure. My personal feeling is you won't find a concentration of any kind of ions above a buried target. I think any unusual concentration of ions you sense will be attributable to an ion source that is recognizable (ie: crt tube, ionic air purifier, motor brushes, etc.) But I don't really know this, and we won't know until we see the results of your experiments.

[J_Player]

According to Dell Winders, there are certain frequencies which are used to sense different elements when using LRLs. When he tallks about frequencies, he is referring to the advantages of connecting a low power oscillator to the hand probes (modified rods that look like dowsing rods) held in his hands. This battery operated device is worn on the belt, and the frequency is adjusted by a potentiometer somewhere between 100 hz and 1000 hz to aid in detecting the element you are searching for.

http://www.geocities.com/joe9999b/geotech/pro.jpg

While Dell has offered no coherent explanation as to how this works, He did say that there are various frequencies that work for gold, silver and other elements. The only other comment Dell makes about this device is that it is a "molecular frequency discriminator" (MFD). He never says it will help to find gold or other treasures, only that it is a molecular frequency discriminator. I made numerous attempts to have him explain how it works, and his replies were inconsistent, and tell us very little about what principles an LRL works on:


"I have probably been the strongest most vocal proponnent of this concept. (not the bogus advertising claims) I have never, ever promoted any ION or ELECTROSTATIC field detection theories."

"According to science, water is a strong concentrator of the earth's magnetic "field" and will follow even slightly moving water."

"Physical Dowsing" detects the stronger emenating "fields" at the surface of the earth which are layered over weaker "fields", over weaker "fields" etc, etc."

"Discrimination of the "field" concentrated around a chemical element, can be accompolished with the mind via "Mental Dowsing", or with the use of frequency, and/or electronics."

"Let me make it clear, I have NEVER claimed, or believed for a moment, that any electronic configurations, and even some non-electronic configurations can be used effeciently as a Meta-Physical Dowsing tool. A simple needle & thread is suffice to me for that purpose."

"The repelling force that seems to affect the LRL Rod(s) appears "As If" it is more magnetic, than electrical. In that context, I built an experimental magnetic/harmonics prototype based on a theory I developed in the field study of MFD, of what I think could be classified as a method of Magnetic ressonance."

"Under optimum operating conditions, I can "Feel" the strength of the target "Field" repel against the Rod. I have traced to the location of test targets from 60 feet away while blindfolded."
No where in Dell's statements did he ever offer any proof by test instruments that confirm what these devices are measuring.
As near as I can tell, Dell Winders doesn't know what physical principles are involved in the workings of a LRL. It appears he knows they work from his personal success in using them, and he believes some kind of "field" is involved. My opinion is he has very little konwledge about the developed sciences which measure signals and fields at the surface of the earth. I speculate that based on his experiences with LRLs, any theories he developed are more subjective rather than factual concerning the geophysical attributes involved. This is to say, that if there is a magnetic field anomoly where the LRL device is reacting, then I have never seen any evidence that anyone did a survey with a magnetometer to confirm that the magnetic anomoly actually exists. Without such a confirmation, then it is anybody's guess whether the LRL is responding to a magnetic field, static field, radio waves, gamma emissions or a host of other anomalies that could exist at the location of the response.

It is precicely for this reason that the LRL proponents have come under so much criticism. They have no science to prove that they are sensing anything, and the theories of how LRLs work change with each user. As long as this condition exists, we can expect to get very bad information about LRL theory from these non-scientists. It will be nice if some day one of the modern LRL proponents produces some honest testing to show exactly what these devices are measuring. It would be nice to see proof from ion detectors, magnetometers, EM frequency detectors, and other calibrated instruments that are known to give accurate readings. Then we wouldn't need to waste our time looking into technologies that can't possibly work, while concentrating on methods that have the most promise.

[Qiaozhi]

Are we wasting our time?

YES!

[Carl-NC]

As far as a special field around buried gold, there is a lot of evidence from conventional detectorists to support this. Many detectorists talk about a "halo" around old coins and gold they find. They say they get a really strong signal on their metal detector, as if the coin is much bigger than what they actually dig up. But after digging up the coin, it then gives a normal signal, even if they bury it again.

These are anecdotal stories, and have not been backed up either in experiments or in theory. Oxidized iron can definitely produce a larger response under certain conditions, but copper or silver oxides probably do not. I've read on other forums where a couple of people have tried to experimentally verify halos, and have failed. I suspect halos are mostly a myth.

The explanation I heard is these coins develop oxides and other salts around them after they are in the ground for a long time. Apparently it takes a lot longer for gold because it more inert than silver, copper and other metals used in coins and jewelry. But even gold does form a very thin film of oxides and other salts after it has been in the ground long enough (most gold has a certain amount of copper or silver alloyed that will also corrode slightly at the surface and leach into the soil over time).

Gold does not produce oxides, at all. Metals (copper, silver, etc) alloyed with gold will corrode, but not the gold.

- Carl

[Carl-NC]

Yes, ions and electrostatic fields coexist. You can have one without the other as anyone with some physics or electronics background would know.

I think the term "electrostatic field" is a misnomer. We have electric fields, and magnetic fields. Either one may be static or dynamic. So we can have a "static electric field" or a "dynamic electric field." Also, I don't think you can have an ion without an electric field, though you can have an electric field without an ion. When ions are in (relative) motion, the E-field is no longer static.

- Carl

[Carl-NC]

The only other comment Dell makes about this device is that it is a "molecular frequency discriminator" (MFD). He never says it will help to find gold or other treasures, only that it is a molecular frequency discriminator.

According to the advertising, what is the device supposed to do?

Now, take a look an issue of "Gold Prospecting" magazine... look up the ad for the (Electroscope) Gravitator... what is that device advertised to do?

- Carl

[FrancoItaly]

Hi All
A ground battery with gold and other metals or minerals it can make an electric field and this is a real fact. The chemical reaction requires a lot of time if the 2 electrodes are very distant...

[Esteban]

Is good info?:

http://www.trifield.com/SurfaceDCVoltmeter.htm#Sensor


The above is from main page:

http://www.trifield.com/

[J_Player]

Now lets get straight about an electrostatic field: I am talking about a volume of space that contains an electric charge that is different than the surrounding 3-dimensional space. You can call it an electrostatic field, or static electric or whatever you want. But I am referring to a volume of space that has an electic charge different than its surroundings. I am also talking about a charge that does not change noticably over a period of perhaps a minute or longer. Thus, it does not have a measurable frequency component. Having said that, we are focusing on static electric charges, not electromagnetic waves.

In the earth's atmosphere at ground level, we find an atmosphere of nitrogen and oxygen plus some other gasses in lesser amounts. Static electric fields are usually accompanied by oxygen ions, or ozone. There are other things that can cause static electric fields in the air, including ions of other gasses, electrons, and voltages created by electronic devices.
But wherever you find a static electric field, you will also find ionized gas particles in the volume of the field. No matter how slight, they are there and can be measured. The only exception is in a perfect vacum, where there are no molecules of any kind.

Ruling out a perfect vacum on the surface of the earth where LRL detectorists are seeking treasures, we could agree that the only ions to be expected floating in the air are ions of oxygen or hydrogen, or nitrogen, and maybe a few ions of other air constituents. Anybody who says there are gold ions hovering in a cloud above buried gold will soon become a laughing stock after a survey with an ion detector is made.

Nuff said

[J_Player]

PS. If I am wrong about the cloud of gold ions hovering in the air... then we could get rich with Ivconic's $50 ion detector. we could collect the hovering gold ions from the cloud to plate the antenna. Who knows.... maybe we collect several ounces of gold ions reconstituted into matallic gold in less than a day... Think so? http://thunting.com/geotech/forums/images/icons/icon10.gif

[J_Player]

I checked it out sum more... and guess what.. Carl is right. Gold does not form oxides. Well, sorta right.. gold oxide does exist. You can make it in an atmosphere of 15,000 psi or higher pretty easy. But not so easy on the average surface of the earth. So I guess I am wrong (hate when that happens).

The gold compounds you can expect to find under the ground are naturally occuring tellurides and chlorides, with chlorides most likely to be present in the soil nearby a metallic gold target. You may also expect to find salts of the other alloying metals in the gold target such as copper, silver, lead and others. These metals form salts in the surrounding ground, and can leach out of the gold host to make a gold nugget more pure at its surface. These salts in the vicinity of the target could also be responsible for the reported "halo" effect by some detectorists. Here are some more interesting facts about gold:

1. It is estimated that all the gold in the world, so far refined, could be placed in a single cube 60 ft. on a side.
2. The most common gold compounds are auric chloride and chlorauric acid, the latter being used in photography for toning the silver image.
3. 1 oz. of gold can be beaten out to 300 square feet.
4. Gold has 18 isotopes; 198Au, with a half-life of 2.7 days, is used for treating cancer and other diseases. Disodium aurothiomalate is administered intramuscularly as a treatment for arthritis.
5. A mixture of one part nitric acid with three of hydrochloric acid is called aqua regia (because it dissolves gold, the King of Metals).

Question: How important is gold compared to your youngest umarried daughter?

[Carl-NC]

Gold does not form oxides.

Nor does buried gold generate ions. :)

[J_Player]

True, gold does not generate ions.
But aren't gold ions formed in some small amount as a result of a chemical reaction in damp soil?

Isn't there a form of oxidation on the surface of metallic gold surrounded by chlorine salts in solution? From what I read, a very small amount of gold on the surface of a buried metallic gold object will react with neighboring chlorine salts (sodium chloride, magnesium chloride, etc) to form gold chloride in acidic soil. This can happen anywhere gold is under the surface of the ground with moisture from ocean water, or even fresh water if chlorides exist in the soil where the gold is. But before the gold can oxidize to the form of gold chloride, a gold atom must first lose one or more elecrons (become ionized) to become soluable in the damp ground. Once in solution, it is free to combine with a chloride ion or stay in solution until the soil dries, where it invariably combines as dry gold chloride salt. This trace of surface corrosion on gold happens to such a minute degree that it is not detectableble by visual inspection even after the gold object is buried for centuries.

As long as the soil is damp, I would suspect there is a small trace of gold ions with millions more copper ions and chlorine ions, and ions from other minerals in the soil around the buried metal alloy. However, I can imagine no way these ions would escape into the air and become airborne gold ions. We are talking about negible traces of gold ions, and I would expect measurable concentrations of other alloying metal ions from the target, such as copper.

The presence of chloride ions in a soil sample can be easily identified by putting the soil sample in a cup of distilled water. Then add a drop of 1% silver nitrate solution. If a white cloud forms where the drop falls, this indicates silver ions from the nitrate changing to white silver chloride salt. While this does not prove there are gold ions in the sample, it does prove the soil around the buried gold contains chloride ions. If the soil sample was damp when it was dug up, these ions were in the ground around the buried gold. If the soil was dry, then the chlorine ions were combined as salts in the soil.

This is basic chemistry that gives some degree of credibility to the "halo theory". It also would support theories of "ground batteries" caused by buried metals. I still wonder how anyone can determine the presence of miniscule amounts of gold ions buried in a sea of millions times more ions of the other local minerals, by sampling in the air some distance away. Detecting these trace amounts of gold ions requires nothing short of atomic absorption/emission methods, or gamma spectroscopy.

It would seem to me that the only "halo" easily found by a detectorist would be a halo of copper chloride or other easily corroded metal from a target like salts of tin or iron rust. I would like to see some proof that this halo really exists besides hearsay. It would be intresting to see a detector give a large target signal over a coin, then after a coin is dug up, to re-bury it and take another look at the detector reading.

[Esteban]

Gold, silver, copper, bronze and another good conductive item buried for long time has around it electrical field. FrancoItaly is correct in his theory of battery.

[ivconic]

:)
First I am very sorry cose left this thread for a longer time. I had/have some
objective problems and have to manage them first.Second reason is that network
connections are very bad these days here, at my place....
So i missed your posts and chance to take active part in it....
"Hello IVCONIC,
What you say on this? Do you have any evidence that your circuit also detects
electrostatic fields? I suppose its possible that the antenna will shield out the
ES fields and also seperate/filter the ions so only ions get to the center probe
antenna. If that is the case I'd go for the J_Player circuit mod. I KNOW that 3819
FET is extremely sensitive. It will detect a flea scratching his ear from 10 feet (haha).
Goldfinder"
BF245 too....I've tested it many times.About es field....well it is much more
complicated than it looks at the first sight. Can you define ES in relation with
ions? I can't.It will take an osciloscope monitoring to notice some minor es
influence on the ion detection. Dish is rejecting oposite polarity but es...I do
not have evidence.
"I think the term "electrostatic field" is a misnomer. We have electric fields, and
magnetic fields. Either one may be static or dynamic. So we can have a "static electric
field" or a "dynamic electric field." Also, I don't think you can have an ion without an
electric field, though you can have an electric field without an ion. When ions are in
(relative) motion, the E-field is no longer static."
Carl

Of course! I agree. I am using es term just as bad habit although it is mismatch.
When dealing with ions we have "very" dynamic field...
"Now, take a look an issue of "Gold Prospecting" magazine... look up the ad for the
(Electroscope) Gravitator... what is that device advertised to do?
Nor does buried gold generate ions..."
One thing for sure - left you without money!
"Gold, silver, copper, bronze and another good conductive item buried for long time has
around it electrical field. FrancoItaly is correct in his theory of battery."
Esteban
That is the catch! I noticed that phenomena many times but, is it electrical field or
ionic field or something else, i do not really know! I doubt it is ionic field at all.
Besides, i tried my ion detector on gold and silver and ... nothing! I have test field
with burried items(for testing detecting equipment).Some of those items are burried for
longer than a few years there, so i guess it has to "evolute" some "field" by that time.
And truth is that there is a better detection on "older" items in the ground, but,thanks
to "what"...i do not know.
JPlayer is on the right track! COnnecting detector to osciloscope is giving you a various
results and very rich monitoring of receiving signal.My problem is that my o.scope is some
Philips 30 years old and heavy, with a big box, so it is almost impossible to use it outdor
on the field.I can only experiment in the lab.But still i noticed much more than a simple
"clicking" from spkr. when using o.scope.
...........................
I have a portable ECG device with a cathode screen, batt. operated, with 5 inputs.....
I was thinking somehow to use it instead of o.scope....!!!(it is a sort of very slow scope)
Any suggestions or mods !?
regards!

[J_Player]

Hi Ivconic,

If you have radio transmitter experience, maybe another idea is to send the output signal from the detector to a a small radio transmitter then recieve the signal in the lab where the oscilloscope is. You could then have a friend sample the targets while you watch the signals on the scope.

I doubt there is any ion field to detect around the targets, but my hunch is you will find a disturbance in the patterns of existing EM waves above the target. I think that when you remove a target, you will find the EM wave patern will be restored to more similar like the surrounding EM wave patterns.

The waves I am talking about are mostly low frequency radio waves, maybe down to several hundred hertz, but maybe high frequency too. This is just a hunch, but I think a buried target or underground stream will cause a disturbance of some existing frequencies of EM waves. I would expect you find the easiest to detect EM disturbances following along the the edges of the stream like a vertical curtain. These are probably small variations in signal, but may be bigger than I think.

Scientists using isotope detectors found that he normal background radiation from deep in the earth becomes very weak over a body of underground water, then becomes stronger than normal at the edges of the the water. This happens to be similar to reading that dowsers say they find. But ruling out increased airborne ions or static fields, this leaves us dynamic fields, which are EM waves, or possibly other dynamic fields related to gravity or little-observed geopyhsics.

I don't know what the full mechanism is, but I suspect that there will be a disturbance in the normal pattern of EM waves due to the buried object, similar to how above ground objects can create disturbances in radio waves.
The scientists who use isotope detectors are not looking at EM waves, but the precautions they take seem like the same precautions that a radio engineer would take into consideration when measuring the characteristics of transmitted waves.

Some hints from the scientists with their isotope detectors:

1. The best readings can be found before 10:00am and after 2:00 pm. The X-rays of the sun fluctuate causing false readings between 10:00am and 2:00pm.

2. It is good to compare your measurements taken the same time the next day. This can confirm the reading and rule out a possible spurious interference. Never repeat the reading at a different time of day.

3. Magnetic storms can cause large fluctuations in the background readings. It is good not to take measurements at these times. Wait till there is no heavy sun storm activity.

If you wanted to measure weak EM waves, you probably know many methods. Your ion detector could probably be used as a sensitive detector if the antenna was replaced with a coil. Luckily, the FETs are fairly high frequency, and can amplify any range you might want to look at, with easy bandpass tuning with a coil and old style radio variable capacitor for lower frequencies.

[michael]

Hi to all.

...Isn't there a form of oxidation on the surface of metallic gold surrounded by chlorine salts in solution? From what I read, a very small amount of gold on the surface of a buried metallic gold object will react with neighboring chlorine salts (sodium chloride, magnesium chloride, etc) to form gold chloride in acidic soil. This can happen anywhere gold is under the surface of the ground with moisture from ocean water, or even fresh water if chlorides exist in the soil where the gold is. But before the gold can oxidize to the form of gold chloride, a gold atom must first lose one or more elecrons (become ionized) to become soluable in the damp ground...

your statements about the Gold interaction and reactions can be true as we and you know gold will be solved in the 3+1 HCl-HNo3 compound and the HCl role is more important. presumably in soil Cl ion + H2O gives HCl( it takes long time to happen this).
and this time it can affect on gold and forms a halo or another energetic thing
huummm? I don't know exactly.
As Esteban before had stated these by e-mailing to me;"...In places where
the terrain is more conductive, salty terrain is possible to find fresh gold. This fresh gold only is detectable very short distance,3 or 4 meters...From the vehicle, in salty terrain the PDC 205 sensitivity is incredible...The only terrain I found a single coin from 40 m from the detector was in salty soils, in the salty terrain of Chaco, and in the proximity of the target, you cannot enter..."

But one thing to think is DELL experience by mineoro. he stated:
"...I used a 1 ounce Gold Kruger and, lying on the surface of the ground to tune the Mineoro, and specifically to determine if the target SOF was strong enough to be within the Mineoro's operating limitations. When the SOF was strong, the Mineoro, detected the unburied Gold from a distance of 12-15 feet. When SOF conditions were weak, the Mineoro would not detect the "field" of the un-buried Gold..."

It has no accordance with long time buried objects theory. Then what's the
mineoro detection Basis?! May be can conclude around a buried object
even a nonmagnetizable metal will form a kind of field different from
electromagnetic fields, probably the earth magnetic field can be efficacious.
Please Pardon my impudence I speculated it can give a thought.

[J_Player]

Dell has made a number of comments indicating he does not find any difference between long buried gold and recently buried gold, but he never actually made a definite statement to that effect. I would think he does not recognize any halo effect on gold. This is an example of where different LRL users have different opinions about how the devices work. Keep in mind, Dell does not agree with many of the claims made by LRL manufacturers. His views on how LRLs work is not the same as what Mineoro says.

Based on what I have heard from a lot of LRL users as well as conventioinal detectorists, It seems there are a lot of people that notice this "halo effect" which seems to disappear after they dig up the buried object. Because of the numbers of people who report finding halos, I consider it a worthwhile lead to follow in discovering the secrets of locating buried targets.

The chemistry involved is pretty basic: In addition to using the known solvents for gold, you can easily create gold ions in solution by putting a gold object in hydrochloric acid, then adding a litle household bleach (sodium hypochlorite). When the chlorine gas dissipates, you will have positively charged gold ions in solution, which would dry into gold chloride. But the available chemistry of soil is not conducive to producing gold ions in any measurable maounts, even if the best conditions of acid soil wet with ocean brine. The necessary acid constituants of th soil could be HCl or other acids caused by mineral reactions or from organic sources.

My opinion is any halo detected is caused by the other alloying metals which leach out from the surface of the gold target and into the soil. This is known to happen in buried copper pipes which can develop leaks due to corrosion of the interior or exterior surface of the pipe in contact with mineralized water or damp mineralized soil. There also is a "battery" component involved where dissimilar metals are present, such as solder joints, or connections to iron pipes, that rapidly accelerates corrosion and ion production. It should be noted that any "halo effect" may also involve elements of an electric current flowing, or voltage in the halo vicinity as well as the presence of ions. While any electrical properties in the "halo" region would be small, the effect they have on a detector search coil might be very noticable.

Here are some pictures of american copper clad pennies dug up from less than 8 inches in the sand of a California beach where the ocean water keeps the coins wet. Once a pinhole leak allows ocean water into the zinc core area, the battery action rapidly accelerates the corrosion process. Even after all the zinc is gone, the copper will continue to corrode untill all that remains is chloride salts of copper, disolved away into the ocean. There is no halo expected in this case because the coins are surrounded by moving water that is regularly replaced with every tide.
http://h1.ripway.com/Forum_Weasel/FORUM_WEASEL/salt_pennies.jpg
These coins have been in the sand for less than 3 months. There is considerable corrosion, with the corroded metals changed to ions which combine to form salts in the wet surroundings. If the water was not replenished daily, we could expect a sizable weight of metal to become concentrated as ions in the near vicinity of the coins. These ions would convert to salts or remain as ions suspended in the damp soil.
A simple way to test and find out if there is heavily ionized soil in a "halo" around a buried target is to find a target that you suspect has a halo (buried coin with good percent copper or tin). Then dig up the target carefully, so the target and neighboring soil for 6 inches around is not disturbed. When the target plug is removed, put it in a plastic flower pot like a potted plant, with spare loose soil from the same hole to fill the area around the plug. Set the pot on clean ground that has no other buried targets nearby to iunterfere. Then you can perform the following tests:

1) Use a conventional metal detecetor to measure the signal strength and detection range from all angles and record the measurements. Next, pinpoint the exact location of the target inside the plug and carefully probe into the plug to where the coin is and remove it with long nose pliers, without disturbing the plug any more than necessary. Close the hole after removing the coin and check the plug again with the metal detector. You might find some evidence of a signal from a "residual halo" of ionized metal salts. But maybe not.

2) Try putting the coin back in the same location in the plug. See if you get the same readings as before.

3) Dig a second plug the same size as the first at a hole neighboring where you found the coin, and put the coin in the new "clean" plug, then see what reading s the detector shows. Be sure to dig the new "clean plug" the same as you dug the plug with the coin, and put it in an identical plastic flower pot. USe the same long-nose pliers to insert the coin into the plug.

4) Repeat the whole experiment, with cleaning the surface of the coin before returning it to the plug.

Final note: You can create a coin with a halo by taking a copper coin and burying it in a container of soil to which you add just enough ocean water to keep it damp. Put a cover on the container and let it sit for a few weeks. I have an up-comming "mayonnaise jar test" for coin halos which will begin in a few weeks, involving lots of mayonnaise jars and coins. I exect it will take several months for any halo to develop, if it does at all. If you have any test suggestions, let me know in the next few weeks.

[Jim]

Based on what I have heard from a lot of LRL users as well as conventioinal detectorists, It seems there are a lot of people that notice this "halo effect" which seems to disappear after they dig up the buried object. Because of the numbers of people who report finding halos, I consider it a worthwhile lead to follow in discovering the secrets of locating buried targets.

The halo theory is a myth. Gold is inert, silver is dang near inert and it takes hundreds of years for copper coins to start down any path of deterioration in normal soil*.



“Disappearing targets� are typically novice detectorists that do not know how to adjust the metal detector properly, and/or misinterpret a false signal.



Hope this helps, Jim

*normal soil – dirt

[michael]

The halo theory is a myth. Gold is inert, silver is dang near inert ...


“Disappearing targets� are typically novice detectorists that do not know how to adjust the metal detector properly, and/or misinterpret a false signal.
No. it's not true.

the halo existence has practically demonstrated. what has been proven practically is more reliable and higher than theoretic analysis’s.
I myself have found a jar full of silver powder(very ancient) by my PI MD at the 5 feet depth. the halo was at least 8 × 8 feet around the target whereas the target(jar) size was about 1.5 ×1 × 0.5 feet.

[J_Player]

Hi Jim,

What you posted didn't really help. You stated that "Gold is inert, silver is dang near inert", with no evidence or testing to support your statement. Are you aware that if gold was inert, there would be no such thing as gold telluride or a number of chlorides of gold and hydrated chlorides in nature? Don't silver dishes tarnish in the air? These are not inert metals. They are considered noble metals which are less likely to corrode than others, but both silver and gold will form ions and combine with other elements if the surrounding environment is favorable.

But I am open to the idea that the "halo effect" is a myth if I can see some credible demonstration that it is in fact a myth. I am also open to the idea that the "halo effect" exists if I can see a demonstration to show that it does.

So far all I heard is a lot of hearsay, with NO evidence to support the "halo effect" exists or doesn't. How about some real proof? I am planning a series of "mayonnaise jar tests with different composition soils to see if any halo effect develops over a period of time. I really want to know the answer. I don't think the answer can be determined by blindly believing your favorite group of voices claiming that they have the answer, with no proof to support their claims.

My mayonnaise jar experiments are not designed to be definitive scientific proof, but a quick, cheap indicator to see if further testing is warranted. I invite you to post your input on methods to conduct these tests that I plan to start in a few weeks. My current plan is to bury US pennies and US dimes in the center of mayonnaise jars packed with different soil samples. I plan to survey these samples with a VLF detector and a PI detector from all angles and create a 3 dimensional chart showing signal strength at different points in time. There will be other tests performed at the end of a 3-month period which will examine the soil after the coin is removed, including chemical testing for free ions and metal salts.

I hope you do not take offense at my disagreeing with the lack of foundation for your statements, but I am trying to bring some credibility to the hearsay we are constantly exposed to.

[Carl-NC]

True, gold does not generate ions.
But aren't gold ions formed in some small amount as a result of a chemical reaction in damp soil?

I doubt it...

Isn't there a form of oxidation on the surface of metallic gold surrounded by chlorine salts in solution? From what I read, a very small amount of gold on the surface of a buried metallic gold object will react with neighboring chlorine salts (sodium chloride, magnesium chloride, etc) to form gold chloride in acidic soil. This can happen anywhere gold is under the surface of the ground with moisture from ocean water, or even fresh water if chlorides exist in the soil where the gold is.

This might happen in unusual circumstances, with elevated temperature... but would not occur with gold buried in average soil.

As long as the soil is damp, I would suspect there is a small trace of gold ions with millions more copper ions and chlorine ions, and ions from other minerals in the soil around the buried metal alloy. However, I can imagine no way these ions would escape into the air and become airborne gold ions. We are talking about negible traces of gold ions, and I would expect measurable concentrations of other alloying metal ions from the target, such as copper.

I will certainly agree with you on that...

This is basic chemistry that gives some degree of credibility to the "halo theory".... It would seem to me that the only "halo" easily found by a detectorist would be a halo of copper chloride...

I doubt that copper chloride is detectable by a metal detector.

- Carl

[Carl-NC]

Final note: You can create a coin with a halo by taking a copper coin and burying it in a container of soil to which you add just enough ocean water to keep it damp. Put a cover on the container and let it sit for a few weeks. I have an up-comming "mayonnaise jar test" for coin halos which will begin in a few weeks, involving lots of mayonnaise jars and coins. I exect it will take several months for any halo to develop, if it does at all. If you have any test suggestions, let me know in the next few weeks.

I suggest filling 3 jars with wet beach sand straight from the surf. Near the top of one jar, place a zinc penny that has several deep surface scratches to expose the zinc. Near the surface of a second jar, place a copper penny. Leave the 3rd jar with no coin. Turn them upside down so the pennys are now at the bottom. Let them sit for a month or two. When it's time to test, place a fresh penny in the 3rd jar to compare with.

- Carl

[Carl-NC]

But I am open to the idea that the "halo effect" is a myth if I can see some credible demonstration that it is in fact a myth. I am also open to the idea that the "halo effect" exists if I can see a demonstration to show that it does.

This has been discussed before, I think on Eric Foster's PI forum. As I recall, it's been demonstrated that iron can corrode and create a larger effective target, but copper and silver do not. However, wet salt sand can increase detection depths for all metals, possibly through it's conduction of eddy currents which boost the target's own eddy response. This is a guess.

I agree though, it's time for some definitive experiments....

- Carl

[Jim]

Hi Jim,

What you posted didn't really help. You stated that "Gold is inert, silver is dang near inert", with no evidence or testing to support your statement.

JP,



If you are not aware that gold is inert, I will stand-down from trying to hold an educated discussion.



Good day, Jim

[ivconic]

:)
Hi to all good people !
Just short note.
Day before yesterday,yestarday and today i visited some locations and found a
handfull of lead bullets from 1780.-1815., a few arrows and one part of gun.
About lead bullets....they are really "extended" targets in the ground.I was easilly founded them in 20-25cm depth.On the fresh air depth of detection decreases to 10-15 cm...
Whay is that so....? I can not explain yet..
Regards!

[goldfinder]

I was reviewing the various posts on this thread and several of the posts by Esteban and others have claimed that they have found long buried gold with an ion type detector. IVCONIC's circuit most closely resembles the one that Esteban provided. These had chargers of the antenna with a negative or positive charge and the charging circuit used an oscillator. Esteban in a later reply said in essence that the oscillatory charger was necessary to discharge the antenna from excessive charge.

J_Player proved a simple circuit that did not provide this oscillatory antenna charger nor was there a mode in the circuit to change the polarity of the antenna charge.

If anyone is going to test these theories I suggest we at least follow Esteban's suggestions since he claims an operational capability with the oscillatory charger version which he appears to be using. At least then we will have a test base to compare similar circuits.

Goldfinder

[J_Player]

There seems to be some question whether the oscillatory ripple on Ivconic's detector is able to help detect ions. According to Ivconic, "I doubt it is ionic field at all. Besides, i tried my ion detector on gold and silver and ... nothing! I have test field with burried items(for testing detecting equipment).Some of those items are burried for longer than a few years there, so i guess it has to "evolute" some "field" by that time. And truth is that there is a better detection on "older" items in the ground, but,thanks to "what"...i do not know."
In other words, Ivconic, using his oscillatory charging circuit found "nothing" when looking for ion fields near gold and silver. After ruling out ions, he concludes that he doesn't know what causes buried items to give a stronger signal with detector equipment. It is for this reason I dispensed with the extra circuitry in a simplified diagram. However, If the AC component is crucial in detecting the elusive "ion fields", then it would be good to get some information about what frequency and voltage oscillator is necessary for charging the detector. A schematic of the Mineoro devices in question would be helpful.

My opinion is similar to Ivconic's. I doubt there exist any measurable "ion fields" in the air near buried gold targets. My feeling is that the kind of signals that will be eventually discovered are probably electromagnetic dynamic fields, generally recognized as radio waves. I wouldn't be surprised if they were in the very low frequency range.

[FrancoItaly]

J Player you are right,ULF and especially one Schumann frequency, 7.83 z, it's in the range of alpha frequency and this it would be a connection between dowser and long range detection. I have almost finished my ULF receiver with a E_Field antenna and VCF tuning...

[goldfinder]

Great answer J_Player - I was just trying to use the info from Esteban as he is obviously a confirmed Mineoro user and seems to have made some ion detectors himself. I can "feel" a field around gold but I am wired differently than most due to several near death experiences when young and NDE's definitely have lifelong effects.

From my own research it doesn't look like there are EM or ES or ionic fields around buried gold, but there is something there.

I am building a version of your circuit with a seperate antenna charger so I can experiment with the variables.

Has anyone looked at the gold artifacts claimed to have been found w/ the Mineoro? I did and it is quite impressive. So is it a hyped con (BS!) or the real thing?
Goldfinder

[J_Player]

Hi goldfinder,
I consider all the gold shown on manufacturers sites to be hype. They are in the business to sell equipment, and they know that posting photos of treasures can cause a lot of otherwise intelligent people to disengage the thought process and let the "gold fever" process take over. Many detector sales organizations use this form of advertizing, whether for LRL or conventional detectors. Maybe some of the treasures were found with the products being advertized, maybe not -- I don't really care. As far as I'm concerned, these photos are just advertizing gimmicks. I have never seen a credible demonstration of how well a detector works from any magazine or manufacturer website. The only believable demonstrations I have seen are those from individuals who use detectors. For example, look at this forum, where detectorists post their finds daily: http://www.findmall.com/

Pick any forum of your choice for more than 20 types of detectors and see average detector users showing daily photos of what they found with their detectors. Funny thing, I don't see any photos of daily finds with Mineoro or other LRL detectors here. Maybe there are other sites that show large amounts of daily discoveries with LRLs similar to what we see here, but I guess I just haven't found them.

Another interesting story along these lines -- I recently posted asking what is the best detector for California beach use. I got exceent response from top detectorists telling me the types of detectors that are expected to work best based on well-known principles of metal detecting. I also got a lot of responsess from local California folks telling me what works best for them in the field. I got NO response from any LRL users.

One of the local beach hunters invited me to go hunting with him for a day, using one of his $1200 detectors, whereby I found the 2 corroded coins that you see in the photo above. But any attempt to ask for a demonstration of a LRL is invariably answered with some excuse for why a demonstration cannot be done. Would you spend money for a machine that the seller refuses to demonstrate finding treasure in the field for you?

[hung]

Has anyone looked at the gold artifacts claimed to have been found w/ the Mineoro? I did and it is quite impressive. So is it a hyped con (BS!) or the real thing?
Goldfinder

You can bet they're real.
I've seen some of their findings when I was at the factory. Lots of gold and silver objects.

Sorry to say that but americans are notorious for advertising gimmicks as you say... We brazilians are not. I know Damasio and the people at Mineoro. The last thing they would do is an advertising gimmick.

[J_Player]

Nobody questions whether real gold objects exist at a factory or in photos at a website. The question is whether a LRL is able to find treasures for someone who buys the detector. If so, then let's see a demonstration of a LRL find gold in front of us to watch like other metal detectors do.

So far all we ever heard is a lot of talk about how much treasure the Mineoro machines can find -- NO demonstration of the machine being used to find gold. I am buying detecting equipment right now for the summer season. Anybody wants to show me a Mineoro detector find some of the gold near where I live in Southern California, then I will put Mineoro on the list of hot treasure machines. So far I have had NO replies to any of my previous offers.

If there is nobody in the entire world who is willing to put on a live demonstration of the Mineoro LRLs finding gold, then there is no way in the world I will waste my money on this scam. A collection of artifacts in the Mineoro factory does not prove anything to me about what these machines can do. It only proves that treasures were put on display in a factory. Bring the machine to my beach and the gold mines where I live and show me how it finds gold. I got the cash ready for purchasing equipment, but I am not so stupid to be suckered into a scam for a machine that nobody on earth will give a live demonstration of because they know it doesn't work.

The money talks, the BS walks.

[hung]

JPlayer,

I understand your concern. In fact, I would be doing and asking the same thing if I were you. We all know how american people praise money to the point of creating the 'time is money' sentence...

If you go to the Mineoro's site and open the list of findings with the names of the detectorists, you can email them and adress your questions to the users themselves.
Funny thing is that I did exactly that when I was about to buy the PDC 210 that I own. The only people I got no reply at all was from the americans listed there.
Would it be because they don't want to 'raise their heads in public'?
Americans have a different culture and different attitude sometimes...
Besides, I have never seen anyone of them discussing Mineoro detectors in forums.
My guess, honestly, is that people who own those detectors are too busy in the field and wish to remain anonimous.

I for myself took a 3 week break from the site I want to recover, because I am an audio engineer and record producer and am finishing a CD right now. Also I am waiting to put my hands on the FG 78 this week luckily to get back there.

My other advice for you would be: Go direct to the source and schedule a trip to Brazil and to Mineoro factory to watch a demonstration. It's a beautiful place by the sea with lots of good food...
Damasio told me he has plans soon to fly to US to do this personally. But as he suffers from diabethes I am not sure he will make it tough.

Third advice would be to wait my own report.
Regards.

[J_Player]

"Would it be because they don't want to 'raise their heads in public'?"
"Besides, I have never seen anyone of them discussing Mineoro detectors in forums."
I found some Americans talking about the Miuneoro LRL detectors in other forums. Here is what they said:
"I really hope your not seriose"
"LOL"
"Is Dale Gribble Feeding you info on LBJ or LRL's OR Whatever. ROFL"
"Quick Call Carl. He may be able to Deprogram you. LOL"
"They are the REAL con artists"
"lmao"
"i know you can't put a price on the C.O.N.......as it is truly PRICELESS !!"
"I say it's horse pucky... "
"What a bunch of CRAP :!: :!: :!:"
"BS"
"Until we seen it works in person we'll keep our wallets closed... :wink:"
"Total BS, absoultly nothing here is true :!: :!:"
"If it worked that good everyone would have one, Bull ****!"
"That kind of science makes me sick to my stomache... then theres that saw about fools and money.... "
"It cannot detect gold, at all. In fact, it appears to be intentional fraud
"Thanks for your well known efforts in exposing these bogus devices for the criminal hoaxes that they are."
"geared to mislead people who are easily mislead."
"NOT ANOTHER ONE......... :evil:"
" had a PDC-205 on loan last year. It is a piece of crap, an intentional money-making scam"
"..these over priced things do not working as advertised.."
"I'm trying very hard to learn, and understand the reasons why the Minero, is not living up to it's advertising claims..."

Read the actual forum posts at these links (you will find some of the funniest photos you have ever seen at this first link): http://www.treasurenet.com/f/index.php/topic,16304/prev_next,next.html?PHPSESSID=4b39e3297820aa1a8027 8a29ec7f2792
http://www.arizonagoldprospectors.com/invision/index.php?showtopic=68&hl=mineoro

Maybe the Americans do not have the same culture as in Brazil. Maybe the reason they don't answer you is because they are too kind, and they don't want to spoil your good feeling for Mineoro.

Of course, I am still not convinced the Mineoro can't work. Show me some photos of the treasure you find with the FG 78 after you return. Please post them so we can see. Take some pictures of the area where you hunt in Brazil too, and some pictures of the landscape that shows you recovering the treasure from the ground. I look forward to the time when I can to return to Brazil. It is truly a beautiful country. But I don't think I will be going soon.

Regards

[hung]

When I said detectorists talking about the Mineoro detectors, I meant the ones WHO ARE LISTED IN MINEORO'S SITE WITH THEIR FINDINGS. Those, I've never seen in any forum. As they did find gold as you can see/read, why would they be willing to talk about it in forums?
If you were one of those guys I bet you would remain shut and 'disappear' as soon as possible, despite your statement you would do the opposite.
The link you posted shows about a bunch of people who don't own and ain't got the slightest idea about the technical background regarding the Mineoros. And the few left who got the PDC 205 apparently don't know how to use it. I'm sorry.

Remember, those early models only worked with well more than 50% of ionic field intensity and even so, many treasure were found. I already told the story of my friend Celi who with a 205 found 32 1816 gold coins. His picture is on the site.

When you are used to the detector, KNOWS how to use it and start to perceive some let's say 'tips' from it, you enhance dramatically your potential. You can have two people with a PDC 210 on the beach. One being a seasoned 210 user and the other a novice. You can bet the seasoned one will find more gold and faster than the novice detectorist. Also he wil be able to find targets where the novice will miss. This relates to how to set the controls accordingly.

In fact this is an interesting world. There's no single thing, fact , etc. that's common sense. Not one single!
Have you ever noticed that? Taking this discussion to the standard metal detectors which is apparently a proved technology, when you go to forums you even can see people bashing each other and never agree which detector brand seems to be the better and even coment this particular brand don't work!

There are people even today who don't believe men got to the moon. It was a hoax!

[mineorogreece]

Hi Hung
I am mineorogreece ,a mineoro dealer for Greece.I would like to ask you a few things if you allow me.Can you please send me your email?
My email is: liantis@mineorogreece.gr
Thanks a lot
Jim

[J_Player]

"As they did find gold as you can see/read, why would they be willing to talk about it in forums?" Americans talk abouit the gold they find in forums more than any other people in the world. I can show you more than 5 major treasure forums with mostly Americans showing pictures of the gold they find. Here is one: http://www.thetreasuredepot.com/cgi-bin/surfandsand/ss_config.pl?#69619
American is not afraid to show when they find gold. The time when Americans do not post picture of treasure is when they DON'T FIND treasure. This makes me think the Americans who pay money for Mineoro machine never find any treasure. This is the reason why they don't post picture of gold.

You continue to post talk about how good Mineoro can find treasure, but I see no picture of treasure you found reecently with Mineoro machine. You say it takes a person who knows the machine to find the treasure? There are people finding lost jewelry on American beaches worth many thousands of dollars. Some rings with diamonds as well as lost coins. Any weekend you will see many people on the East coast beaches bringing home hundreds of coins and jewelry, but NEVER do we see people with Mineoro machine. If Mineoro detector can find lost gold and silver, then why mobody using Mineoro to get gold and diamonds like other people at the beach? Why is NOBODDY in the entire world willing to show a live demonstration of Mineoro detector working at beach same as all other detectors? Why do we see only other detectors finding coins and jewelry, NEVER Mineoro?

Is it possible that Mineoro is a big hoax and fake machine only good for taking money away from people who buy Mineoro?

[Carl-NC]

When I said detectorists talking about the Mineoro detectors, I meant the ones WHO ARE LISTED IN MINEORO'S SITE WITH THEIR FINDINGS.

A couple of years ago, I tried emailing every person listed on the Mineoro "testimonials" web page, at least those who included an email address. Every single email bounced back because the addresses were dead. Didn't inspire much confidence. Anyone know how to contact Don Dereck or John Drebel?

- Carl

[michael]

Hi everybody and Carl.Those e-mails were valid before.
e.g. I had communication with 2 0f them; one the man claimed finding big golden statue in Israel with "yusif barak" name as I remember answered my
e-mail 3 months later from sent time with bad english penmanship. his answer was nearly this; "excuse me for delayed answer because I am a military officer and most of the times, out of house. Yes, I found the statue with mineoro and am satisfied of it. the mineoro people are nice..." and was afraid of replying other questions so that detecting is illegal there.

the other one was Hank Carey who answered my e-mail after 1 month.
(I have a paper printed of our communication.)
this is his answer;" Its' ok for you to write, but I don't use computer much. my children do. the maximum depth I found a box containing jewelry was at 12 meters deep and I picked it from 30 meters distance."

the other man was Donald Dreck. In a part of his answers;
"I have found some precious objects and plenty of trash and junk irons. it necessarily doesn't detect only gold."

these communications were in 2002.
now their e-mails are invalid like as my e-mail at that time (mic_milit@hotmail.com (mic_milit@hotmail.com))
But still they are undersuspicious for me. I have to survey carefully.
I afraid of one thing; maybe mineoro devices really work and we deprive ourselves from it due to a causeless suspec.

[hung]

Hi everybody and Carl.Those e-mails were valid before.
e.g. I had communication with 2 0f them; one the man claimed finding big golden statue in Israel with "yusif barak" name as I remember answered my
e-mail 3 months later from sent time with bad english penmanship. his answer was nearly this; "excuse me for delayed answer because I am a military officer and most of the times, out of house. Yes, I found the statue with mineoro and am satisfied of it. the mineoro people are nice..." and was afraid of replying other questions so that detecting is illegal there.

the other one was Hank Carey who answered my e-mail after 1 month.
(I have a paper printed of our communication.)
this is his answer;" Its' ok for you to write, but I don't use computer much. my children do. the maximum depth I found a box containing jewelry was at 12 meters deep and I picked it from 30 meters distance."

the other man was Donald Dreck. In a part of his answers;
"I have found some precious objects and plenty of trash and junk irons. it necessarily doesn't detect only gold."

these communications were in 2002.
now their e-mails are invalid like as my e-mail at that time (mic_milit@hotmail.com (mic_milit@hotmail.com))
But still they are undersuspicious for me. I have to survey carefully.
I afraid of one thing; maybe mineoro devices really work and we deprive ourselves from it due to a causeless suspec.

Alright. Michael answered it for me. He did exactly what I did at the time I was going to buy the PDC 210. Everybody satisfied now?

It's not Mineoro's fault if the detectorists change their emails without notice. In fact there are several of them who don't give permission to public release theirs.

But no drama forum members. You have me to trust upon the impressions of the newcoming FG78. You may turn your enquiries to me as I promise to be around and helpful and also to not change my email without notice...

Just to make it clear. Every Mineoro detector finds gold. The only thing makes the FG different from models prior to 2006 is that not only it will find long time buried gold as the others but its power of detection is more advanced and now it finds fresh gold. eg. the gold ring you are using right now. Provided the weather conditions permit it. The DC2006 is also an excelent machine as I was told. And now both detectors allow night search and reducing huge fields to pinpoint big objects.
Cheers.

[J_Player]

Hi hung,
It is hard for me to believe the old emails from people who do not answer for more than a month, especially when the people long ago are no longer here to ask questions. But it is easy to believe you, because you are here right now. We don't even need your email because you can answer in the forum.

I am anxious to believe that the Mineoro works like you say. Please post some photos of treasure you have found since January 1, 2006 with your PDC 210. I will also wait to see the treasures you find with the FG78. Because the FG78 will find new buried gold, you can use it at the beach like other detectorists who find thousands of dollars worth of lost jewelry. But for now, could you please post some photos of the treasure you found in 2006 with your PDC 210?

Regards

[Esteban]

I'll talk with Alonso and Damásio for to create a Mineoro forum, a place where the people leave his impressions. Maybe this is the only way for to solve this pile of discussions: create a place of discussions between owners and others.
Hung, also you are in position for to talk about it with Alonso and Damásio.

[Carl-NC]

Just to make it clear. Every Mineoro detector finds gold.

Well, let me go back to a question I had asked previously, but went unanswered.

The PDC205 I had tested would not detect gold. I was told that it was a 1-knob model, and not a 2-knob model. Apparently the 2-knob model would really really detect gold, but the 1-knob model maybe would not. :confused:

I now have an opportunity to buy a PDC210. Are all the PDC210's equally capable, or are there certain versions of the PDC210 I should avoid?

- Carl

[hung]

I think the time has come to start another thread, since this has nothing to do with the original thread. So I decided to post the replies in this new thread. Please check ‘Mineoro Detector Explanations’

[goldfinder]

To Esteban or Hung,
Youall seem to be the experts on this use of the Mineoro and ION detectors in general. Esteban recommended having both plus and minus capability on the ion detector antenna so the operator could switch to one or other. So - I have a question for you.

What is the antenna polarity (i.e. plus Volts or Minus Volts) with respect to the detection circuitry that you recommended for detection of buried gold???

Thanks in advance for a reply,
Goldfinder

[hung]

I can't speak for Esteban's detectors but in the case of Mineoro, the ionic chamber is positive in relation to the incoming negative ions.

[J_Player]

Gold ions have a charge of +1 and +3 in common conditions found at or near the surface of the earth at standard atmospheric conditions. It would seem that gold ions are repelled by a positive ion chamber. In the case of Ivconic's detector, any gold ions would be attracted to the dish and repelled by the antenna. Because gold ions are positive, they would not be detected by a negative ion detector. This is perhaps the reason that some ion detectors have a provisioin to reverse the polarity.

I still do not believe gold ions exist in the air or the soil in any measurable amount where a detector can sense them. Ivconic stated that he found no evidence of any ions of any kind in the air near long-time buried targets. But if we are wrong, then maybe Esteban or hung can show us where to find these ions.

[hung]

Gold ions have a charge of +1 and +3 in common conditions found at or near the surface of the earth at standard atmospheric conditions. It would seem that gold ions are repelled by a positive ion chamber. In the case of Ivconic's detector, any gold ions would be attracted to the dish and repelled by the antenna. Because gold ions are positive, they would not be detected by a negative ion detector. This is perhaps the reason that some ion detectors have a provisioin to reverse the polarity.

I still do not believe gold ions exist in the air or the soil in any measurable amount where a detector can sense them. Ivconic stated that he found no evidence of any ions of any kind in the air near long-time buried targets. But if we are wrong, then maybe Esteban or hung can show us where to find these ions.

The mineoro's ionic chamber do emit positive ions which crash the negative ones dispersed by earth. Remember earth is negative. That's why detection power raises prior to rain as atmosphere is fully positive charged. Also don't foget the electrostatic field plays a role here...

At this point I admit I finally start to understand how the Mineoro detectors work and how they could possibly detect, but I won't coment on that since I respect their discovery.
Regards.

[goldfinder]

Yes, anyone with a little atomic phisics or chemistry knows gold ions are positive, they have lost electrons to make them a postivly charged ion. There are no ions until the atom either gains or loses charge. That is why I made my last post regarding the insistance of Esteban to be able to change the polarity of the antenna.

IF the Minero "ion" chamber is positive as Hung says, then the detector is detecting negative "ions" or electrons emited by the gold. If Hung is right about the detection going up before a thunder and lightening storm then just may be - the Mineoror detector is detecting the "crashes", i.e., the electrons being attracted to the walls of the ion chamber to create a little spark or neutralization of the chamber and the electronics detects the change in the chamber voltage. So these "crashes" that Hung and Esteban have mentioned is the Mineoro electronics amplifying this effect and there is a pulse that goes to the headphones to create the "crash".

So if we follow this reasoning a little further then all we need is an amplifier that detects voltage change on the ion "chamber" or "antenna" that is charged with a well controled voltage level. The center antenna pole is superfluous.

Goldfinder

[J_Player]

Interesting theory, but here are a few questions:

1. Buried gold dies not ionize much compared to other metals alloyed in the gold and other minerals in the ground. For every single gold ion, there are millions of other ions such as copper tin, lead, etc. in the same vicinity. When a buried peice of metallic gold atom loses 1 or 3 electrons to become a gold ion, It will go into solution with the moisture in the ground that it is in contact with. As soon as a copper or other metal ion is in the same vicinity, the gold ion will immediately revert back to matallic gold, re-attaching to the gold metal, or remaining as a metalic gold particle in the ground. The small traces of gold ions are negligible, and cannot be measured, and "crashes" of gold electrons happen within a small fraction of a millimeter to the buried metallic gold object. The question is how can the LRL detector hear the "crashes" from gold ion electrons in the midst of millions more "crashes" from other ions? Wouldn't any disturbance caused by the minute trace of gold ions be damped millions of copper, lead, sodium, tin, and other metal ions?

2. Any common metal target buried in the ground is not likely to send electrons to the surface where they can be collected or detected. The electrons "crash" within a microscopic area around the ion in solution. this microscopic area may be buried several feet under the ground, and has no way to transport these "crashing" electrons to the surface of the ground. Question is how do free electrons that left a gold atom travel through several feet of earth and through the air in all directions, and arrive wherever a LRL user might be holding his detector in some nearby vicinity?

Not to say there can't be any pricniple how a mineoro LRL works, but perhaps the travelling ionic signal theory is a red herring.

[FrancoItaly]

Hi all
Here a good theory on ground battery and ULF:
http://www.spie.org/web/oer/august/aug97/earthquakes.html

[goldfinder]

Another question for you experts on the Mineoro --

Regarding the "Ion Chamber" - Does the Mineoro have a fan inside pulling air into the ion chamber??


Thanks for all your previous discussion. I hope you have good luck finding those big bars of gold!

Goldfinder

[Esteban]

Hi

No fan inside the chamber.

Thanks very much, best wishes for you.

[Carl-NC]

Another question for you experts on the Mineoro --

Regarding the "Ion Chamber" - Does the Mineoro have a fan inside pulling air into the ion chamber??

A fan would do no good... the so-called ion chamber is a piece of PVC pipe filled with epoxy. Here is a pic of the back-side...

[Alexismex]

Hello forum , It is too easy to go to your dentist or doctor (for big thing) and take a radiograph from this thing , take two shoot one vertical and one horizontal....and see what you have in , for me a piece of junk !!!!
Soon I will have a Mineoro in my hands (a mexicain friend who find nothing at all) and I promise you to shoot photos of every pieces of junk for the forum ....
See for example a good radiograph for demistified coil Minelab DD:
http://www.thunting.com/geotech/forums/showthread.php4?t=10754

With a photo like that you can easely make your DD working perfectly...
I like this forum for all the good guys and things you have , thank you for participitate, thank you Carl,
Alexis.

[goldfinder]

Thanks Carl - Great Pic - maybe you can get an X-ray of the thing to see what is inside. But you need X,Y,Z, not just Z and X. I had visions of some kind of sophisticated chamber - not something filled with epoxy. Of course - it could still be a detector but so simple the inventors don't want it known. Amazing - No wonder Esteban says that the signal is of some 60 degrees in direction at times AND it doesn't work all the time. My PI machine works 100% as long as the batteries got juice.

For a filled in chamber the ions never really get into the "chamber" so then what is the thing detecting? Electrostatic detectors could work with a filled in chamber. This has three wires coming out so maybe there are 2 plates with a wire/plate in between that goes to the electronics. There could still be a real chamber in there and the epoxy is to prevent ambient air getting in and messing up the detection with water vapor, dirt, etc.

A chamber in my understanding of the American English is a hollow area. Research on ion chambers shows that they ARE hollow chambers filled with air, gas, or a vacuum with electrodes that are charged with a voltage to control the ions that are sent into the chamber.

I have done measurements on very subtle signals and some of them are very suceptable to environmental noise, like the sun or storms so I still would like to see more real tests on the Mineoro.

I am still hoping that the Mineoro is not some scam and so am looking for explainations. So much conflicting information!

So what do the Mineoro's cost. I hear prices of up to $8000. Is that right??

Goldfinder

[Esteban]

... on Mineoro's thread.

[FrankMD]

Was reading this past thread so I hope someone sees my comments. I have been studying the Minero info. It sounds like their unit would works by detecting the gold ions through galvanic (electrolyte action) and the key seems to be that the ions are carried by the earths electrosatic field, like a carrier back to the devices chamber. So the key is the electrostatic field and gold ions via galvanic/ electrolytic action.

Does this sound logical?

Frank

[Carl-NC]

Was reading this past thread so I hope someone sees my comments. I have been studying the Minero info. It sounds like their unit would works by detecting the gold ions through galvanic (electrolyte action) and the key seems to be that the ions are carried by the earths electrosatic field, like a carrier back to the devices chamber. So the key is the electrostatic field and gold ions via galvanic/ electrolytic action.

Does this sound logical?

Frank

It sounds logical, but is not backed up by reality.

First, gold does not react galvanically in a sacrificial way, so buried gold will not produce gold ions. Second, even in cases where ions are produced underground, they will have to migrate to the surface and become airborne. Third, the airborne atoms will be affected far, far more by wind than the Earth's electrostatic field. Fourth, even if ions manage to reach a Mineoro device, it would take a drift tube apparatus to distinguish a gold ion from a potassium ion, something the Mineoros clearly do not have.

It is the hallmark of good advertising to make the impossible sound logical.

- Carl

[fmnotes]

HELLO IN ALL.
CONGRATULATING FOR THIS ELECTRONIC CIRCUIT.
FOR WANTING (FOR TEST REASON) I MANUFACTURE THIS LOCATOR Ivconic's Negative Ion Detector.
REQUEST DOES EXIST PCB?
CAN SOMEBODY SEND TO ME THE PCB?
fmnotes@yahoo.gr
I THANK.

[fmnotes]

The Circuit below is what Ivconic posted as a "working LRL". Since it has some standard electronic circuitry, I will give a brief overview for those who are interested. Keep in mind I am not an electronic technician, and I may make some errors.

The basic purpose of the circuitry is to charge the dish positively, and sense minute electrical variations that are picked up on the antenna. The electrical variations sensed on the antenna are amplified and sent directly to the speaker. This means you can hear only variations in the audio range that are sensed on the antenna. The meter is wired to show the amplitude of the audio and non-audio signal variations. There are 4 controls which allow you to adjust the amount of charge on the dish, and to adjust the sensitivity and range that you are sensing on the antenna. This means that you are only measuring relative changes in the signal picked up, not the absolute amount of signal. However, if the controls are left at the same settings, you will see the relative change in signal from one sensing location to another, and from one point in time to another.

Starting with the U1 LM555 at the lower left, all the circuitry around this IC is an oscillator that supplies ac power to the Motorola-Lucent transformet (this is a transformer from a modem card). The secondary side of that transformer is connected so as to put a positive charge on the dish. The 100k potentiometer to the left of the 555 probably adjusts the oscillator frequency. If so, it will ultimately adjust how strong a charge is sent to the dish. This entire charging circuit and it's oscillator has it's own dedicated power supply which is isolated from the remaining sensing circuitry. This is most likely to avoid sending interference from the oscillator to the sensing circuits. I suppose the dish charging circuitry is turned on and off by removing the 9v battery to the left, but a switch could be added to disconnect the battery.

The reciever portion starts with the 30 cm telescoping antenna in the dish. It is shown connected to a wire that passes through a teflon bushing in the center of the dish. It should be said that teflon is one of the best insulators known, and the use of teflon may be crucial for top performance. The physical dimension of this teflon bushing may also be important depending on what voltage the dish is charged to, and if there is an ac frequency component on the dish.

Next we come to the sensor circuitry. (I presume this circuitry is isolated and shielded from the oscillator and dish. All of the sensor circuitry is powered by the two 9v batteries shown at the bottom right. The two voltage regulators provide 8v positive, 8v negative, and a ground. The sensor circuit is also turned on and off by removing the batteries, but a 2-gang switch could be added to turn it on and off. When we trace the wire from the antenna to the 3 ICs to the right, we see the signal is feeding into a 3-IC circuit whose output is sent to a differential amplifier.

Take note, that the differential amplifier has 3 potentiometers, one to control the feedback, and two that adjust the output signal that feeds to the next amplifier stage. This is where the sensitivity and sensing range of this machine is adjusted. After passing through the next amplifier stage at the right, the signal branches toward the speaker and a meter. The speaker has a small power transistor driving it, while the meter has an IC with another adjustment on the input side (appears to be a gain control to keep the meter in the desired range).

A final note about the differential amplifier circuitry: The 3 ICs that initially sense the antenna signal are designed to create a differential signal from the single signal on the antenna. The lower 2 of these 3 ICs, may create a short time delay in addition to inverting the polarity of the signal, depending on the values of the components around the IC. If this is true then this delay can be thought of as a phase shift for any frequency that may be picked up on the antenna, and the degrees of shift would be defined by the frequency sensed. If this portion of the circuit was intended to act as a delay, then it may have a significant influence on the operation of the LRL.

If anyone was to build this circuit, I suppose the mechanical considerations would be to make sure the dish and antenna assembly were sturdy enough to withstand whatever use you put the machine to. I imagine the balance of the finished machine is also important. This machine would be very lightweight, with the heaviest component being the 3 batteries and the meter. The electronics could probably be mounted inside 2 small aluminum boxes attached to an insulator on the back of the dish, and a handle attached to the bottom side of the boxes.

Electrical considerations revolve around the fact that you are measuring minute electrical variations near a charged dish. I would think it is important to wear non-static clothes (no synthetics -- 100% cotton), and keep any other objects that collect static charges away from the machine. Also, I would mount the dish-charging circuit in a seperate metal box from the sensor circuit. And ground both boxes to the sensor ground, while keeping the dish-charging circuit isolated from the box that it is mounted inside. If the charging lead that connects to the dish is longer than about a centimeter, I would shield it with a shield that connects to the box ground.


HELLO.
I REQUEST YOU HELP WITH.
SUPREME US 028 SO22168 MOTOROLA-LUCENT.
IT HAS
D.C. RESISTANCE: PRI. = 45 OHMS +/- 10% @ 20 C
................................. SEC. = 75 OHMS +/- 10%

I HAVE FOUND FROM PROPORTIONAL MODEM BUT HAVE MORE OHM.
THAT IS TO SAY
D.C. RESISTANCE: PRI. = 90 OHMS +/- 10% @ 20 C
................................. SEC. = 100 OHMS +/- 10%
WORK RIGHTLY THE WON'T INSTRUMENT OF DETECTION?
I REQUEST YOU IF YOU KNOW I REQUEST YOU HELP WITH.
IF YOU KNOW SOME COMPANY THAT I CAN HIM BUY YOU SEND ME THE WEB PAGE.
ONCE AGAIN I THANK

[Alexismex]

I will post again in Geotech for THE SERIOUS IONS CHAMBERS experimenters :):):) not the fake low chambers....that you see in the mineoro products!!!! or in the remote sensing seccion !!!!:lol::lol::lol:

http://www.techlib.com/science/ion.html#Better%20Version

[J_Player]

HELLO.
I REQUEST YOU HELP WITH.
SUPREME US 028 SO22168 MOTOROLA-LUCENT.
IT HAS
D.C. RESISTANCE: PRI. = 45 OHMS +/- 10% @ 20 C
................................. SEC. = 75 OHMS +/- 10%

I HAVE FOUND FROM PROPORTIONAL MODEM BUT HAVE MORE OHM.
THAT IS TO SAY
D.C. RESISTANCE: PRI. = 90 OHMS +/- 10% @ 20 C
................................. SEC. = 100 OHMS +/- 10%
WORK RIGHTLY THE WON'T INSTRUMENT OF DETECTION?
I REQUEST YOU IF YOU KNOW I REQUEST YOU HELP WITH.
IF YOU KNOW SOME COMPANY THAT I CAN HIM BUY YOU SEND ME THE WEB PAGE.
ONCE AGAIN I THANKThis is a circuit diagram that detects variations in the static charge near the antenna. There have been no reports of anyone finding treasure with this circuit, probably because it is not capable of locating treasure.
The circuit was designed and built by Ivconic as a spare time project to see what it would do. He concluded it does nothing except detect static charges in the air and electrical power lines.
See what Ivconic says about this circuit here: http://www.geotech1.com/forums/showpost.php?p=41129&postcount=71 (http://www.geotech1.com/forums/showpost.php?p=41129&postcount=71)

The purpose of the Lucent transformer is to charge the dish at the antenna in a manner that is completely isolated from the sensing circuits while increasing the voltage. There is nothing critical here as long as the circuit is able to place a charge on the dish that measures at least 12 volts. If you want to use a different modem transformer, it should work ok. You may need to adjust the value of the resistor and capacitor between BC107 and the transformer to get the best performance. I would expect your modem transformer will not charge the dish to as high a voltage as the lucent transformer because your transformer is probably not stepping up the voltage as much at the secondary. You could try re-winding this transformer with approximately twice as many turns on the secondary as the primary. The charging circuit uses very little power, so the wire size is not so important. If you read the posts above, you will see Esteban suggested replacing the LM555 with a 7555 Cmos version. This is a good idea.

If you are successful at building this charge detector then you should be able to sense charges in the air and locate power wires that are hidden behind walls. You should also be able to locate sources of ions in the air and high voltage charged things such as an ion generator, or an old style monitor that uses a CRT to show the images. This sensor may be more sensitive than other charge detectors because it has a differential amp front end which can be adjusted for very sensitive detection before sending the signal to the later amplifier stages. I am guessing it is more sensitive to airborne charges than the Zahori design that Esteban posted below it in post #8.

Best wishes,
J_P

[fmnotes]

[quote=J_Player;125115]This is a circuit diagram that detects variations in the static charge near the antenna. There have been no reports of anyone finding treasure with this circuit, probably because it is not capable of locating treasure.
The circuit was designed and built by Ivconic as a spare time project to see what it would do. He concluded it does nothing except detect static charges in the air and electrical power lines.
See what Ivconic says about this circuit here: http://www.geotech1.com/forums/showpost.php?p=41129&postcount=71 (http://www.geotech1.com/forums/showpost.php?p=41129&postcount=71)

The purpose of the Lucent transformer is to charge the dish at the antenna in a manner that is completely isolated from the sensing circuits while increasing the voltage. There is nothing critical here as long as the circuit is able to place a charge on the dish that measures at least 12 volts. If you want to use a different modem transformer, it should work ok. You may need to adjust the value of the resistor and capacitor between BC107 and the transformer to get the best performance. I would expect your modem transformer will not charge the dish to as high a voltage as the lucent transformer because your transformer is probably not stepping up the voltage as much at the secondary. You could try re-winding this transformer with approximately twice as many turns on the secondary as the primary. The charging circuit uses very little power, so the wire size is not so important. If you read the posts above, you will see Esteban suggested replacing the LM555 with a 7555 Cmos version. This is a good idea.

If you are successful at building this charge detector then you should be able to sense charges in the air and locate power wires that are hidden behind walls. You should also be able to locate sources of ions in the air and high voltage charged things such as an ion generator, or an old style monitor that uses a CRT to show the images. This sensor may be more sensitive than other charge detectors because it has a differential amp front end which can be adjusted for very sensitive detection before sending the signal to the later amplifier stages. I am guessing it is more sensitive to airborne charges than the Zahori design that Esteban posted below it in post #8.


I TOO MUCH THANK YOU FOR YOUR HELP,
AND YOUR BY TIME TO BE DEALT WITH MY QUESTION.
I MADE THE PCB, IN FEW DAYS THEY WILL BE READY FOR TRIAL.
I WISH IT WORKS.

IF YOU KNOW SOME OTHER DRAWING OF DETECTOR OF DISTANCE, THAT COULD DETECTION TREASURE,
I REQUEST WITH BRIEFINGS.
ONCE AGAIN I THANK
Best wishes,

[fmnotes]

J_Player .I TOO MUCH THANK YOU FOR YOUR HELP,
AND YOUR TIME TO BE DEALT WITH MY QUESTION.
I MADE THE PCB, IN FEW DAYS THEY WILL BE READY FOR TRIAL.
I WISH IT WORKS.

IF YOU KNOW SOME OTHER DRAWING OF DETECTOR OF DISTANCE, THAT COULD DETECTION TREASURE,
I REQUEST WITH BRIEFINGS.
ONCE AGAIN I THANK
Best wishes,

[taliesin]

The Circuit below is what Ivconic posted as a "working LRL". Since it has some standard electronic circuitry, I will give a brief overview for those who are interested. Keep in mind I am not an electronic technician, and I may make some errors.

The basic purpose of the circuitry is to charge the dish positively, and sense minute electrical variations that are picked up on the antenna. The electrical variations sensed on the antenna are amplified and sent directly to the speaker. This means you can hear only variations in the audio range that are sensed on the antenna. The meter is wired to show the amplitude of the audio and non-audio signal variations. There are 4 controls which allow you to adjust the amount of charge on the dish, and to adjust the sensitivity and range that you are sensing on the antenna. This means that you are only measuring relative changes in the signal picked up, not the absolute amount of signal. However, if the controls are left at the same settings, you will see the relative change in signal from one sensing location to another, and from one point in time to another.

Starting with the U1 LM555 at the lower left, all the circuitry around this IC is an oscillator that supplies ac power to the Motorola-Lucent transformet (this is a transformer from a modem card). The secondary side of that transformer is connected so as to put a positive charge on the dish. The 100k potentiometer to the left of the 555 probably adjusts the oscillator frequency. If so, it will ultimately adjust how strong a charge is sent to the dish. This entire charging circuit and it's oscillator has it's own dedicated power supply which is isolated from the remaining sensing circuitry. This is most likely to avoid sending interference from the oscillator to the sensing circuits. I suppose the dish charging circuitry is turned on and off by removing the 9v battery to the left, but a switch could be added to disconnect the battery.

The reciever portion starts with the 30 cm telescoping antenna in the dish. It is shown connected to a wire that passes through a teflon bushing in the center of the dish. It should be said that teflon is one of the best insulators known, and the use of teflon may be crucial for top performance. The physical dimension of this teflon bushing may also be important depending on what voltage the dish is charged to, and if there is an ac frequency component on the dish.

Next we come to the sensor circuitry. (I presume this circuitry is isolated and shielded from the oscillator and dish. All of the sensor circuitry is powered by the two 9v batteries shown at the bottom right. The two voltage regulators provide 8v positive, 8v negative, and a ground. The sensor circuit is also turned on and off by removing the batteries, but a 2-gang switch could be added to turn it on and off. When we trace the wire from the antenna to the 3 ICs to the right, we see the signal is feeding into a 3-IC circuit whose output is sent to a differential amplifier.

Take note, that the differential amplifier has 3 potentiometers, one to control the feedback, and two that adjust the output signal that feeds to the next amplifier stage. This is where the sensitivity and sensing range of this machine is adjusted. After passing through the next amplifier stage at the right, the signal branches toward the speaker and a meter. The speaker has a small power transistor driving it, while the meter has an IC with another adjustment on the input side (appears to be a gain control to keep the meter in the desired range).

A final note about the differential amplifier circuitry: The 3 ICs that initially sense the antenna signal are designed to create a differential signal from the single signal on the antenna. The lower 2 of these 3 ICs, may create a short time delay in addition to inverting the polarity of the signal, depending on the values of the components around the IC. If this is true then this delay can be thought of as a phase shift for any frequency that may be picked up on the antenna, and the degrees of shift would be defined by the frequency sensed. If this portion of the circuit was intended to act as a delay, then it may have a significant influence on the operation of the LRL.

If anyone was to build this circuit, I suppose the mechanical considerations would be to make sure the dish and antenna assembly were sturdy enough to withstand whatever use you put the machine to. I imagine the balance of the finished machine is also important. This machine would be very lightweight, with the heaviest component being the 3 batteries and the meter. The electronics could probably be mounted inside 2 small aluminum boxes attached to an insulator on the back of the dish, and a handle attached to the bottom side of the boxes.

Electrical considerations revolve around the fact that you are measuring minute electrical variations near a charged dish. I would think it is important to wear non-static clothes (no synthetics -- 100% cotton), and keep any other objects that collect static charges away from the machine. Also, I would mount the dish-charging circuit in a seperate metal box from the sensor circuit. And ground both boxes to the sensor ground, while keeping the dish-charging circuit isolated from the box that it is mounted inside. If the charging lead that connects to the dish is longer than about a centimeter, I would shield it with a shield that connects to the box ground.

you never know it might pick up radiation from japan:lol:

[Rakesh]

Hi All,
Greetings! I am new to this forum but I am an electronics engg.Just got interested in Gold Detectors few days back and was collecting data on type of detectors. Some frineds here have expressed doubts about capability of gold detectors with ionic detection. I found OKM's Bionic 1 commercial Gold Detector are based on Ionic Detection and can detect old burried gold. To detect freshly burried gold they advise Bionic X thatb uses some bio interference balancing but I dont know what is the principle behind it. So it seems the ionic detection does work in old burried gold. One can see at http://www.okmmetaldetectors.com/products/longrange/bionic01.php?lang=en

Rakesh

[Dedevil]

Seems to me that Rakesh has suddenly been invented (see date joined) most likely by j___p to keep the deminishing conversation going and reminisce of the good old days in the retirement village. So o.k. Rakesh check these vidoes out for a clearer explanation, but if you can't understand the theory behind them just ask J Player as he knows all the formuls.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oY1eyLEo8_A (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oY1eyLEo8_A)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqjl-qRy71w (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqjl-qRy71w)
http://www.youtube.com/user/only1egg?blend=3&ob=0#p/u/0/3QTzxah6fOI (http://www.youtube.com/user/only1egg?blend=3&ob=0#p/u/0/3QTzxah6fOI)
rgds

[WM6]

if you can't understand the theory behind them just ask J Player as he knows all the formuls.
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oY1eyLEo8_A)


Better ask dr. Hung because he has insight from other side of science:

[J_Player]

Hi All,
Greetings! I am new to this forum but I am an electronics engg.Just got interested in Gold Detectors few days back and was collecting data on type of detectors. Some frineds here have expressed doubts about capability of gold detectors with ionic detection. I found OKM's Bionic 1 commercial Gold Detector are based on Ionic Detection and can detect old burried gold. To detect freshly burried gold they advise Bionic X thatb uses some bio interference balancing but I dont know what is the principle behind it. So it seems the ionic detection does work in old burried gold. One can see at http://www.okmmetaldetectors.com/products/longrange/bionic01.php?lang=en

RakeshHi Rakesh,
OKM manufactures magnetometers. Their magnetometers do not detect treasures at long range.
The OKM magnetometer is used in a way to trick you believe it can locate buried things from a long distance. But it does not.
Almost everyone who paid money for OKM long range locators did not find treasure from long distance.
They found only what they can find with a magnetometer that they could build for less than $200.
They want to get their money back from OKM company, but OLM will not give back their money.

Read here to see what people reported in the forum for OKM products:

What are the results we hear from treasure hunters who use OKM?
Empty holes and a lot of false detection is the result that nearly everyone reports who has used OKM products. They also report that the OKM does not detect gold which they later recover using other gold detecting tools. Anyone can easily verify this by checking with Morgan or reading the forum posts here in the remote sensing forum or in the Geotech geophysics forum. The only credible reports I read of OKM locators working well is when they detect large voids like a cheap gradiometer does.

We saw the inside of some of the OKM products, which confirm that they are cheap magnetometers just as the people who used them described. The actual claims I read on the OKM page for this Bionic X4 is that it is interfaced to smart phones. This tells me they added more electronic interface to make pictures on a mobile phone from the same cheap magnetometer crap. Then we see their video showing absolutely nothing except some guy wandering around with an X4 in his hand and music in the background. Does this convince you that these are good treasure hunting tools that you need to pay more than $10,000 for?

If anyone wants to buy one of these after reading our forums and the manufacturer's description and watching their video, maybe they really are rich, and they don't want some $200 magnetometer that does not make pictures on their smart phone. Maybe the cool pistol shape with the mobile phone showing images can make them happy and help to instill a sense of prestige. I wonder if we will ever see some treasure recoveries they make when using OKM products? :rolleyes:

Originally posted by Carl-NC here: http://www.longrangelocators.com/forums/showpost.php?p=43757&postcount=6 (http://www.geotech1.com/forums/showpost.php?p=43757&postcount=6)
"I tend to agree about OKM's reputation... I've heard a lot of complaints about them, at least on the forums. Is that the company that advertised a device as being a GPR, when it was really a magnetometer? Now that's something you can get sued over".

Originally posted by BigBang here: http://www.geotech1.com/forums/showpost.php?p=131235&postcount=2
OKM 4000 or 5000 are only named GPR for easy commercial . Because of profit expectaions . But not real GPR :nono:

Originally posted by schatzsucher here: http://www.geotech1.com/forums/showpost.php?p=38572&postcount=1
Inside you find magnetic field sensors and an radar sensor KMY 10. The radar sensor cannot goes in to the earth. Not with this frequency, but the firm sell the system as GPR.

Originally posted by Morgan here: www.longrangelocators.com/forums/showpost.php?p=112348&postcount=44 (http://www.geotech1.com/forums/showpost.php?p=112348&postcount=44)
"So,it was this man Manolo´s friend,who want to convince people that OKM lrl works...
This is realy BIG SCAM,this piece of crap is useles and cost IO.OOO EURO.
OKM people should be shame,and this LRL agent in Italy also !!!"

Originally posted by bulsack here: http://www.geotech1.com/forums/showpost.php?p=100931&postcount=1
OKM is a low grade magnetometer with software that creates some fancy worthless pictures.

Originally posted by Jim here: www.longrangelocators.com/forums/showpost.php?p=112268&postcount=32 (http://www.geotech1.com/forums/showpost.php?p=112268&postcount=32)
"I think the video with the operator dropping the ring on a rope onto the ground after they turn over the lump of dirt shows intentions of fraud".

Originally posted by Great Alex here: http://www.geotech1.com/forums/showpost.php?p=43745&postcount=2 (http://www.geotech1.com/forums/showpost.php?p=82553&postcount=10)
the OKM products are over price and they don't work as they advertised by the OKM company , but they work even as a low quality magnetometer .

Originally posted by hung here: http://www.geotech1.com/forums/showpost.php?p=43745&postcount=2
'Reputable' and 'credibility' are not the best terms to describe them.
They are being charged and sued by Mineoro for trying to copy their trademark names, products and concepts.
Besides that, mineorogreece took them to court sometime ago for a product which did not work as advertised. He got his money back.
How's that for a start?

Originally posted by Congogold here: http://www.geotech1.com/forums/showpost.php?p=132007&postcount=32
...My scans show orange in almost every scan anywhere I scan- obviously I can't be seeing gold everywhere and i can't dig everywhere.
I have reads the manual many times and still can't tell the difference between gold and heavy mineralization or ferrous metals! It is driving me crazy...
I am in prime gold country- i buy plenty from artisanal miners who find their gold the old way- I can't seem to get results with the technology at all.

Originally posted by valchev here: http://www.geotech1.com/forums/showpost.php?p=55004&postcount=107
If You find money for GPR do not buy from OKM. OKM do not produce real GPR, onely advertisements and useless machines.

ivconic's photos show inside of crappy OKM future 2003/5 here: http://www.geotech1.com/forums/showthread.php?p=80373&highlight=OKM#post80373

Originally posted by Infamy here: http://www.longrangelocators.com/forums/showpost.php?p=112813&postcount=75 (http://www.geotech1.com/forums/showpost.php?p=112813&postcount=75)
"How many hoards can you name that have been found with lrl-s h i t? "

Originally posted by ishtar hunter here: http://www.geotech1.com/forums/showpost.php?p=131232&postcount=1
worked 14 years with many devices But neither performance was not good for depths up.
I have exp4000 (okm) but Performance is not good. :frown:

Originally posted by aban here: http://www.geotech1.com/forums/showpost.php?p=115013&postcount=5
donot buy okm machin it cannot detect in deep and it is fruad only.

Originally posted by Alexismex here: http://www.geotech1.com/forums/showpost.php?p=101735&postcount=12
Also here in Mexico I have friends you bought this piece of crap junks from OKM....This Cassbiz it is another seller from OKM....we have found many treasures !!!!ah ah ah....
and do not trust OKM people to give back your money they are bandits ...bandidos...de vrais crapules

Originally posted by bulsack here: http://www.geotech1.com/forums/showpost.php?p=100985&postcount=3
Let's say somebody is to build the $150 magnetometer featured on this website ,hookes it up to a free or cracked 3D program. How would it be different than the OKM that costs as much as a brand new Mercedes-Benz?

Originally posted by Christian here: http://www.geotech1.com/forums/showpost.php?p=44347&postcount=6
From what I have been reading on the various internet boards for years now, nobody who has ever bought this unit has made any reasonable findings. Infact I think that the Fluxgate project to be found on this website is much better engineered and operating then any OKM device.

Originally posted by ivconic here: http://www.geotech1.com/forums/showpost.php?p=105112&postcount=26
:lol::lol::lol:
It is true! That's why this forum is so great - saves your money!

Make EPE gradiometer and you will have nice and interesting device that you can use and understand it's wotking principles.
And all that for small money.
Basically EPE ($150) is very simillar to OKM Gems (4200 euros !!! :angry:)

Originally posted by Astrodetect here: http://www.geotech1.com/forums/showpost.php?p=102428&postcount=17
Would you like to see what sensor is in the Rover C unit?
Check it out and see for yourself.
So Mr Frank please explain how your unit is functioning and what exactly does it detect? We all know that this sensor will only detect ferrite metals and voids.


Here is what's Astrodetect showed us is really inside bionic products.... a cheap Honewell fluxgate magnetometer:

http://www.geotech1.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=10971&stc=1&d=1264434002http://www.longrangelocators.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=10971&stc=1&d=1264434002

Here is a sequence of photos from one of the OKM scam demonstrations where they showed it beeping at a shovel:

http://www.geotech1.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=10799&stc=1&d=1262995949http://www.longrangelocators.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=10799&stc=1&d=1262995949


So far nobody has made a live demonstration of OKM products recovering gold from places where they didn't know where the gold is.
But we have read the reports where it failed to find gold on real treasure hunts which was later recovered from places the Bionic products could not detect it.

Make sure you make your own tests to be certain it will work before you pay money for OKM locators.


Best wishes, :)
J_P

[hung]

Seems to me that Rakesh has suddenly been invented (see date joined) most likely by j___p to keep the deminishing conversation going and reminisce of the good old days in the retirement village. So o.k. Rakesh check these vidoes out for a clearer explanation, but if you can't understand the theory behind them just ask J Player as he knows all the formuls.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oY1eyLEo8_A (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oY1eyLEo8_A)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqjl-qRy71w (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqjl-qRy71w)
http://www.youtube.com/user/only1egg?blend=3&ob=0#p/u/0/3QTzxah6fOI (http://www.youtube.com/user/only1egg?blend=3&ob=0#p/u/0/3QTzxah6fOI)
rgds

Hello Dedevil.
Thanks for the very interesting videos and I repeat again...
Your scientific interest is genuine and you appear like me and many others, not satisfied with the way many 'xientists' understand what science is telling them. And worse, this wrong concepts end up accepted by the 'official' academia as correct for a number of reasons being economic and military interests the most prominent ones.

In the last video, he says that science is still in its infancy. Actually not.
Science is all around us, what is still in its infancy are the 'xientists'. But they will eventually grow up.

As an example, here is a link to a post I answered a member of TNET that might be of your interest.
http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,443021.msg3186008.html#msg3186008

And here, a thread I started a couple years back which describes an outstanding documented scientific phenomena which took place in 1981 and serves as an example of how cases like this are supressed from the mass media.
I could bring this thread back since it was deleted through wayback machine. But given the importance this subject deserves, I'm considering posting it again over TNET.
It's long as it includes a report, but definitely worth reading.
http://web.archive.org/web/20100712161844/http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,327684.0.html

[hung]

Hi All,
Greetings! I am new to this forum but I am an electronics engg.Just got interested in Gold Detectors few days back and was collecting data on type of detectors. Some frineds here have expressed doubts about capability of gold detectors with ionic detection. I found OKM's Bionic 1 commercial Gold Detector are based on Ionic Detection and can detect old burried gold. To detect freshly burried gold they advise Bionic X thatb uses some bio interference balancing but I dont know what is the principle behind it. So it seems the ionic detection does work in old burried gold. One can see at http://www.okmmetaldetectors.com/products/longrange/bionic01.php?lang=en

Rakesh

Rakesh, in a few words and four sentences:

The Bionic 01 works and I know some professional treasure hunters who use it and found gold many times with it.
My team is getting one this next month and it will be one more adition to our arsenal of long range detectors.
When hunting in the field you can use either mode but ionic is better since you get a sound signal and a blue led glowing when gold is located.
If you calibrate a gold object before hand through ionic mode, the device will lock on it and will detect it anywhere you place it, either buried or on surface.
.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QYYAeyGGto

[Morgan]

Rakesh, in a few words and four sentences:

The Bionic 01 works and I know some professional treasure hunters who use it and found gold many times with it.
My team is getting one this next month and it will be one more adition to our arsenal of long range detectors.
When hunting in the field you can use either mode but ionic is better since you get a sound signal and a blue led glowing when gold is located.
If you calibrate a gold object before hand through ionic mode, the device will lock on it and will detect it anywhere you place it, either buried or on surface.
.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QYYAeyGGto

Hung,sorry to disturd you,there is one person who rent the BIONIC-01 in Germany,price for one month was 1000E. After that time he return the BIONIC and said FORTUNATLY I DONT SPENT THE 10.000 Euro FOR ONE BRAND NEW BIONIC,IS USELESS.
And this is only one simple story...
I think maybe your LRL HOLOFOTE is beter than the BIONIC.

[Dedevil]

Hello Hung. The last video was a quiet joke to stir up jp. Thought he must be bored in the retirement village. I know what you were talking about re photon streams and magnetism. Appart from the Economic and military things behind it all dont forget also religion. Hertz lived during the 1800's. The bible then had already been edited with static (gods right hand man) being cast out of heaven. People practicing dowsing were therefor considered to be posessed by demons. Hertz really had no choice but to explain the manistifations as magnetism. What else could they do? Apart from going to the public and saying oh sorry that edited bible that you've all had for the past 200 years is incorrect and to all the families of those witches that were burnt to death, we're also sorry.
regards

[WM6]

Hello Hung. The last video was a quiet joke to stir up jp. Thought he must be bored in the retirement village. I know what you were talking about re photon streams and magnetism. Appart from the Economic and military things behind it all dont forget also religion. Hertz lived during the 1800's. The bible then had already been edited with static (gods right hand man) being cast out of heaven. People practicing dowsing were therefor considered to be posessed by demons. Hertz really had no choice but to explain the manistifations as magnetism. What else could they do? Apart from going to the public and saying oh sorry that edited bible that you've all had for the past 200 years is incorrect and to all the families of those witches that were burnt to death, we're also sorry.
regards

What a harmony of divided soul parts.

[Dedevil]

Which after translation means - Hi i'm Alice I live next door to you know who, in the retirement village. If i anoy you enough will you pay attention to me? We, yes WE love the retirement village and anoying others.

[Dedevil]

Yeh, i lost my wife once.

well, in a game of poker.

It wasn't easy though.


I had to throw in 5 ACES!

[WM6]

If i anoy you enough will you pay attention to me? We, yes WE love the retirement village and anoying others.



Wrong, you and dr hung are not WE, but only one person. WE-illusion is coming due extensive mineoro-LRL-crap use.

[Bill512]

Hi Rakesh,
OKM manufactures magnetometers. Their magnetometers do not detect treasures at long range.
The OKM magnetometer is used in a way to trick you believe it can locate buried things from a long distance. But it does not.
Almost everyone who paid money for OKM long range locators did not find treasure from long distance.
They found only what they can find with a magnetometer that they could build for less than $200.
They want to get their money back from OKM company, but OLM will not give back their money.

Read here to see what people reported in the forum for OKM products:


Originally posted by Astrodetect here: http://www.geotech1.com/forums/showpost.php?p=102428&postcount=17
Would you like to see what sensor is in the Rover C unit?
Check it out and see for yourself.
So Mr Frank please explain how your unit is functioning and what exactly does it detect? We all know that this sensor will only detect ferrite metals and voids.


Here is what's Astrodetect showed us is really inside bionic products.... a cheap Honewell fluxgate magnetometer:

http://www.geotech1.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=10971&stc=1&d=1264434002http://www.longrangelocators.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=10971&stc=1&d=1264434002

Best wishes, :)
J_P

I have opened a OKM (Future 2005) and i can say that inside the probe, was an array of fluxgate sensors, 8X FLC 100.
These sensors are not from Honeywell and also aren't cheap. The manufacturer is a person from Germany,his name is Stefan Mayer -http://www.stefan-mayer.com/ .
Each FLC-100 sensor costs about 93 Euros(about 120USD).
Now about their performance: they have a true sub-gamma resolution(0.4-1.0) and very good temperature stability. In comparison to FGM-3, the FLC sensor is superior in terms of sensitivity and stability.
Now ,we know that OKM uses very good sensors, but FAILS (an Epic Fail!) to deliver a true magnetometer.
Why is this? simply because the sensors are oriented in a line, and there is no difference if they use 1 ,2,8,or even 1000 sensors. This geometry can serve only as a sensitive and expensive compass, nothing else really.
As the operator walks slowly in order to scan an area,even the smallest movement of the probe, can cause large variations in readings. These variations usually are in the region of 250-400 gammas, almost an order of magnitude above typical targets.
Now about Bionic, as far as I know, the first versions had simple coils for TX-RX .

[fmnotes]

http://imageshack.us/f/831/pulseaudio2.jpg/Hi all!!! :)

I use this very stable circuit for any gadget. Is for convert the ugly sound or minielevation of audio in nice "bips". This is for ALL use you want.

The 555 works as comparator. In abscence of any signal (this is, all the stages off) connect this circuit. Whit the preset, adjust in the more sensitivity point —this is, near the continuous bips— and retire a very little. If sounds at the moment of the connection, adjust it in the more good level point. The 22 k resistor and the 10 uF cap are for short timming of bips.

The piezosounder is the type that include internal oscillator.

I have built many of this with 100 variations, but this is one of the betters.

Of course, with the preset you control the sensibility you want.

http://imageshack.us/f/831/pulseaudio2.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/f/831/pulseaudio2.jpg/

[fmnotes]

http://imageshack.us/f/831/pulseaudio2.jpg/http://imageshack.us/f/831/pulseaudio2.jpg/
hello

please, help me?

If you want to tell me about this plan.

I want a change in the plan.

when the incoming signal is low, the beep is not continuous but slow sound beep beep beep. Slow sound.

when the signal is most powerful, the sound beep how fast, beepbeepbeepbeep.
and when the signal is too loud, the sound beep sequential, ie beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep ............

anyone who knows please help me

THANKS

[fmnotes]

hello

please, help me?

If you want to tell me about this plan.

I want a change in the plan.

when the incoming signal is low, the beep is not continuous but slow sound beep beep beep. Slow sound.

when the signal is most powerful, the sound beep how fast, beepbeepbeepbeep.
and when the signal is too loud, the sound beep sequential, ie beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep ............

anyone who knows please help me

THANKShttp://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/831/pulseaudio2.jpg/http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/831/pulseaudio2.jpg/

[Geo]

hello

please, help me?

If you want to tell me about this plan.

I want a change in the plan.

when the incoming signal is low, the beep is not continuous but slow sound beep beep beep. Slow sound.

when the signal is most powerful, the sound beep how fast, beepbeepbeepbeep.
and when the signal is too loud, the sound beep sequential, ie beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep ............

anyone who knows please help me

THANKShttp://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/831/pulseaudio2.jpg/http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/831/pulseaudio2.jpg/

You must use a VCO. I have not something complete...

[fmnotes]

You must use a VCO. I have not something complete...

Thank geo.

I had this in my mind to use.

This is the picture, think you might be used?

If so, you know how to make better use?

thanks

[Anwar2]

hay gays
befor than starting this projet Idont want to be silly because i hade build quad scop it wont work
now Iwant to ask about the middle pin of Variabl Resistor its will work as fixed resistor not varibal because the midd pin not conected

[J_Player]

hay gays
befor than starting this projet Idont want to be silly because i hade build quad scop it wont work
now Iwant to ask about the middle pin of Variabl Resistor its will work as fixed resistor not varibal because the midd pin not conectedSee below:

[Anwar2]

See below:

thanks J _ player for Replay what u mean the both resistance are = one of the 3 pin othe also 3 pin see my attach

see my Question befor what it was
I mean if dont connect the middle pin of the resistance it will be fixed resistance unseful to put varibal on fixed place

[J_Player]

thanks J _ player for Replay what u mean the both resistance are = one of the 3 pin othe also 3 pin see my attach

see my Question befor what it was
I mean if dont connect the middle pin of the resistance it will be fixed resistance unseful to put varibal on fixed placeSee correct way to connect variable resistor below:

[Dell Winders]

In my tests, Mineoro, does indeed work. I particularly found the electronic depth locator interesting as it beeped when placed at the target's 45 degree emanating field at the same locations as detected with the MFD L-Rods.

Unfortunately, when there is atmospheric Magnetic interference and the MFD, or HID Rod(s) do not respond to the target, or react weak, the Mineoro, will NOT detect the target either. Magnetic conditions have to be favorable for any of the LRL's to work. Brazil, apparently has favorable conditions for LRL's to work. Since 1987 the USA has NOT had favorable Magnetic conditions for LRL to work consistently.

When the Strength of field is fluctuating up & down, it is aggravating having to constantly re-tune the Mineoro from one minute to the next. If you live in the USA you will likely find the Mineoro will work sporadicly as it did when Field tested under conditions in Central Florida.

I remember over 20 years ago when Ralph Shull, sold an electronic receiver LRL, to a friend of mine who stayed for a week with Shull, to train & test the LRL. They would work the beach at Atlantic City, NJ every day and consistently found coins & jewelry. My friend was very happy with the results, purchased the LRL and took it back to his home in Pa., 150 miles away. The LRL would not work there at all. Shull, sent him another one. It didn't work either. My friend took the LRL's back to NJ, to get a refund. They tested them, and both worked perfectly under the favorable conditions just 150 miles away.

You should understand the limitations of any type of LRL, before you decide to purchase. Unfortunately for consumers, most LRL manufacturers, and sellers don't inform you of this limitation. Dell

[Qiaozhi]

My friend was very happy with the results, purchased the LRL and took it back to his home in Pa., 150 miles away. The LRL would not work there at all. Shull, sent him another one. It didn't work either. My friend took the LRL's back to NJ, to get a refund. They tested them, and both worked perfectly under the favorable conditions just 150 miles away.
I don't suppose this is the last time we'll hear this excuse either. :rolleyes:
At least this is one time when LRLs are consistent. :razz:

[Anwar2]

See correct way to connect variable resistor below:
my friend ithink Im borring u

how could be
see attach

[Anwar2]

Im dont know how to make u to understand
and what i mean see the attach

[Qiaozhi]

my friend ithink Im borring u

how could be
see attach
Anwar2 - it is clear, from your inability to wire up a simple potentiometer, that you have an extremely limited knowledge of electronics. May I suggest that you study some basic electronics books before attempting to build anything.

[Anwar2]

Anwar2 - it is clear, from your inability to wire up a simple potentiometer, that you have an extremely limited knowledge of electronics. May I suggest that you study some basic electronics books before attempting to build anything.

your true gru Ithink I have to study basic book but Im 100% sure I got 26 years exper
in Electronic may my english weak but Im sure Im true .......I suggest all of u to revice ur knowledge :lol::lol::lol: and hope to give others true information .....not as some

[humhum]

In my tests, Mineoro, does indeed work. I particularly found the electronic depth locator interesting as it beeped when placed at the target's 45 degree emanating field at the same locations as detected with the MFD L-Rods.

Unfortunately, when there is atmospheric Magnetic interference and the MFD, or HID Rod(s) do not respond to the target, or react weak, the Mineoro, will NOT detect the target either. Magnetic conditions have to be favorable for any of the LRL's to work. Brazil, apparently has favorable conditions for LRL's to work. Since 1987 the USA has NOT had favorable Magnetic conditions for LRL to work consistently.

When the Strength of field is fluctuating up & down, it is aggravating having to constantly re-tune the Mineoro from one minute to the next. If you live in the USA you will likely find the Mineoro will work sporadicly as it did when Field tested under conditions in Central Florida.

I remember over 20 years ago when Ralph Shull, sold an electronic receiver LRL, to a friend of mine who stayed for a week with Shull, to train & test the LRL. They would work the beach at Atlantic City, NJ every day and consistently found coins & jewelry. My friend was very happy with the results, purchased the LRL and took it back to his home in Pa., 150 miles away. The LRL would not work there at all. Shull, sent him another one. It didn't work either. My friend took the LRL's back to NJ, to get a refund. They tested them, and both worked perfectly under the favorable conditions just 150 miles away.

You should understand the limitations of any type of LRL, before you decide to purchase. Unfortunately for consumers, most LRL manufacturers, and sellers don't inform you of this limitation. Dell

Hi Dell Winders, Mineoro realy works only in warm and coastal areas, I make test with my device (like Mineoro) it not works if is so:
1.if Device is under green leafing and tree-branch (especially pine-tree) .
2.if sun have very strong eruption(11-15 hours).
3. Winter not works , because humidity is high.
4. if treasure is into green plant ,my device can not found, because plant leafing absobrb free Ions from treasure.
5. For found of treasure ,need Weather without waft ure.

I live on the coast in Turkey
Despite these conditions i get signal from big treasure of few kilometers during the summer days night.
My Device is good for very Long range, it not good for short range.;)


Regards.

[Geo]

My Device is good for very Long range, it not good for short range.;)


Regards.

Here are all the problems.... how to pin-point.
Of course if the depth is lower than 20 cm you can use a metal detector, else way..:lol::lol::lol:

Regards:)

[humhum]

Here are all the problems.... how to pin-point.
Of course if the depth is lower than 20 cm you can use a metal detector, else way..:lol::lol::lol:

Regards:)

Hi Geo , for pin-point I use my other device Moleculer Frequency Discriminator with copper Rod, with it is very easy pin point. (MFD).


Regards.

[Geo]

Maybe you did not understand me. When you have a lrl with ability to locate an object from 500m far or from bigger distance then there is problem near to object. I say this "pinpoint"... for lrls.
I have a lrl that use ferrite for antenna, it has the ability to locate objects from 300 or 500m far very easy. But when i am near to object it works with many "interruptions", you think that the signal is so strong and the preamplifier is under saturation.
I did not found the solution for this problem:(.

Regards

[WM6]

I have a lrl that use ferrite for antenna, it has the ability to locate objects from 300 or 500m far very easy. But when i am near to object it works with many "interruptions",

Regards

And how do you know that you locate "object" from 500m and not some other of many possible sources of signal, or LRL has malfunction, or you take wrong explanation of LRL signal (as we can saw on some of your videos)?

It is physically impossible to detect something from 500m and not to "pinpoint" the same thing from 3m, except in very very hot imagination.

Dreaming is ok, but too hot dreaming and hanging on unsubstantiated wishes, can block real development in remote detecting.

[humhum]

Maybe you did not understand me. When you have a lrl with ability to locate an object from 500m far or from bigger distance then there is problem near to object. I say this "pinpoint"... for lrls.
I have a lrl that use ferrite for antenna, it has the ability to locate objects from 300 or 500m far very easy. But when i am near to object it works with many "interruptions", you think that the signal is so strong and the preamplifier is under saturation.
I did not found the solution for this problem:(.

Regards

Yes Geo , you is right when I is near to object ,for my is very difficul with Pin-Point , and other topic is my LRL locate big object up to 8-10km long distance not only 500m.But have only problem with Pin Point.

[Qiaozhi]

Yes Geo , you is right when I is near to object ,for my is very difficul with Pin-Point , and other topic is my LRL locate big object up to 8-10km long distance not only 500m.But have only problem with Pin Point.
What "big object" have you managed to locate at 10km?

[Geo]

And how do you know that you locate "object" from 500m and not some other of many possible sources of signal, or LRL has malfunction, or you take wrong explanation of LRL signal (as we can saw on some of your videos)?

It is physically impossible to detect something from 500m and not to "pinpoint" the same thing from 3m, except in very very hot imagination.

Dreaming is ok, but too hot dreaming and hanging on unsubstantiated wishes, can block real development in remote detecting.

Why you do the easy difficulty;?????:lol:
I located objects from 300+ meters and when i took out from the ground my lrl stop to give signal. I am not dreaming:lol::lol:

:)

[humhum]

What "big object" have you managed to locate at 10km?

Hi Qiaozhi, I say for Big object that is big treasure in cavern with gold. I have and other tests with my device all is correct and foolproof , after find target , I use Radar Detector for vision of treasure. But I not excavate because have very strong law for it.


Regards.

[Qiaozhi]

Hi Qiaozhi, I say for Big object that is big treasure in cavern with gold. I have and other tests with my device all is correct and foolproof , after find target , I use Radar Detector for vision of treasure. But I not excavate because have very strong law for it.


Regards.
What Radar Detector did you use, and what "vision of treasure" did you see?
Also, how can you be sure that the treasure is really there if you have not dug it up?

[humhum]

Also, how can you be sure that the treasure is really there if you have not dug it up?

I am sure because ı see treasure into Radar Metal Detector (GPR).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BAW-F9AC5Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmpAmmDj5Gs

[J_Player]

What Radar Detector did you use, and what "vision of treasure" did you see?
Also, how can you be sure that the treasure is really there if you have not dug it up?Hi Qiaozhi,
I also found treasure at long distance with my LRL.
And like other LRLs, I need to use a metal detector to pinpoint the treasure for final recovery because my LRL does not pinpoint.

For example, a little over 5 years ago, I detected a gold ring buried 7 inches from about a half mile distance when using my LRL.
I know I found a gold ring because my metal detector made beeps when I put it over the target.
But I also know I found a gold ring because I dug it up and saw a gold ring.
This may be hard to believe, but when you hear the full story, you will understand and believe:

The full story - how my LRL detected a buried ring at 1/2 mile distance:
When I detected this ring, I pointed my LRL one single direction.
I don't know why it was pointing that direction, but it was.
So I knew I located something.
But I didn't know how far away it was, because my LRL does not indicate distance of a target.
So I immediately took out my VLF metal detector and started walking down the beach in the direction where my LRL pointed.
(This direction was conveniently parallel to the shoreline).
After swinging my metal detector for a half mile, I found the ring.
But that's not all. I also found a lot of other things along the way before I found the ring, like coins and metal foils.
It appears my LRL was detecting several targets at the same time.

See my LRL below:
http://www.longrangelocators.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=9488&stc=1&d=1251236416

See the treasure my LRL located from 1/2 mile distance:
http://www.longrangelocators.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1997&stc=1&d=1174975181 http://www.longrangelocators.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1998&stc=1&d=1174975181

This really, really proves LRL works. http://www.geotech1.com/forums/images/smilies/good.gif


Best Wishes, :)
J_P

[Qiaozhi]

I am sure because ı see treasure into Radar Metal Detector (GPR).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BAW-F9AC5Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmpAmmDj5Gs
Can this GPR discriminate?
If not, then how can you be sure that it's really a treasure and not a lump of iron, such as a buried pipe?

[Geo]

As i know GPRs don't discriminate. This is a problem:(. But if you knowthe size and the figure of the treasure then you can know if what you see from GPR is what you want.
But here i will say something else..... can a metal detector discriminate between gold and rust of steel?????:lol:

Regards:)

[Qiaozhi]

As i know GPRs don't discriminate. This is a problem:(. But if you knowthe size and the figure of the treasure then you can know if what you see from GPR is what you want.
But here i will say something else..... can a metal detector discriminate between gold and rust of steel?????:lol:

Regards:)
What I'm getting at is ... you cannot claim that you've found a treasure (especially from 10km distance) if you've never dug it up. ;)

[humhum]

Can this GPR discriminate?
If not, then how can you be sure that it's really a treasure and not a lump of iron, such as a buried pipe?


But if you knowthe size and the figure of the treasure then you can know if what you see from GPR is what you want.

I see formative of treasure into GPR. Next (after) step is discimination is with Stinger 2, if it not very deep.

[humhum]

What I'm getting at is ... you cannot claim that you've found a treasure (especially from 10km distance) if you've never dug it up. ;)

Yes , but I it see without excavate.


Regards.

[Qiaozhi]

Yes , but I it see without excavate.


Regards.
Can you post an image from the GPR?

[Geo]

What I'm getting at is ... you cannot claim that you've found a treasure (especially from 10km distance) if you've never dug it up. ;)

I agree. But i have found objects from 300+ meter, distance that it is not seem true to the sceptics.
:)

[Qiaozhi]

I agree. But i have found objects from 300+ meter, distance that it is not seem true to the sceptics.
:)
The trouble with these anecdotes is the manner in which the object was found. Invariably the teller of the story has used an LRL to follow some sort of signal. What that signal is, we have no idea, but it is supposed to emanate from the distant object and is received by the LRL. After following the signal for some time, it becomes erratic, which apparently gives an indication that you are close to the target. At that point a different device (usually a metal detector) is used to locate the object.

I would bet that, if you were to retrace your 300m journey back to the starting point, searching carefully with the metal detector along the way, there would be numerous other objcets that never registered on the LRL.

[Geo]

The trouble with these anecdotes is the manner in which the object was found. Invariably the teller of the story has used an LRL to follow some sort of signal. What that signal is, we have no idea, but it is supposed to emanate from the distant object and is received by the LRL. After following the signal for some time, it becomes erratic, which apparently gives an indication that you are close to the target. At that point a different device (usually a metal detector) is used to locate the object.

I would bet that, if you were to retrace your 300m journey back to the starting point, searching carefully with the metal detector along the way, there would be numerous other objcets that never registered on the LRL.

We are so old men to make so big mistakes:lol:.
The problem of sceptics is that they never saw a man to locate objects from big distance and to take it out without the help of any metal detector. One of them (sceptics) was me before some years until i saw a friend of me to locate objects very easy and from very far with only the lrods. It was the person that i said to WM6 to visit Greece so to show him how the lrl and the lrods work.
But now it is very late:angry:.
My friend died before 3 months:(:(:(. It was only 55 years old:(.

Regards:)

:)

[Qiaozhi]

We are so old men to make so big mistakes:lol:.
The problem of sceptics is that they never saw a man to locate objects from big distance and to take it out without the help of any metal detector. One of them (sceptics) was me before some years until i saw a friend of me to locate objects very easy and from very far with only the lrods. It was the person that i said to WM6 to visit Greece so to show him how the lrl and the lrods work.
But now it is very late:angry:.
My friend died before 3 months:(:(:(. It was only 55 years old:(.

Regards:)

:)
I don't suppose we will ever agree on this. I've watched Derren Brown do a lot of amazing things, but never once have I been convinced that his "tricks" were real.

Sorry to hear the sad news about your friend.

[humhum]

Can you post an image from the GPR?


For view or image with GPR , I will need go to treasure , but law is strong , can after few time.


Regards. :)

[Qiaozhi]

For view or image with GPR , I will need go to treasure , but law is strong , can after few time.


Regards. :)
OK - I'll look forward to seeing the images. Try not to get arrested in the process. ;)

[J_Player]

The problem of sceptics is that they never saw a man to locate objects from big distance and to take it out without the help of any metal detector....Exactly!
And nobody ever will see anyone locate objects from long distance and to take it out without the help of any metal detecor... http://www.geotech1.com/forums/images/smilies/good.gif


Best wishes, :)
J_P

[Geo]

Exactly!
And nobody ever will see anyone locate objects from long distance and to take it out without the help of any metal detecor... http://www.geotech1.com/forums/images/smilies/good.gif


Best wishes, :)
J_P

For another time you don't know what you write:lol:

Regards:)

[sakis1]

Exactly!
And nobody ever will see anyone locate objects from long distance and to take it out without the help of any metal detecor... http://www.geotech1.com/forums/images/smilies/good.gif


Best wishes, :)
J_P


My friend is wrong thinking about what,

[storm1]

J_Player , you are 100% correct when you say ...
And nobody ever will see anyone locate objects from long distance and to take it out without the help of any metal detecor.....
You know why????
Because nobady can pinpoint the center of the loot in a range of couple square meters.
But, also , nobady with a metal detector can search an area of few thousand square meters.
You don't use lrls to find coins in the beach.

Regards

[g-sani]

Exactly!
And nobody ever will see anyone locate objects from long distance and to take it out without the help of any metal detecor... http://www.geotech1.com/forums/images/smilies/good.gif


Best wishes, :)
J_P

hi J_P, how is it going?
I am always using a metal detector as a help but believe me that it was many times that me together whith two friends discovered in swallow depth treasure maps inside small objects.Over here the treasure hunters call them colaouzo.
About always it was copper or bronze covered in natural wax so to prevent the damage moisture could do through time.
We found them by dowsing but most of the times and before digging we used to walk around the place in few meters distance looking for signs.So, allthough we had spotted the exact place to dig we had the option of an extra confirmation of the possible target.
I remember a few times that it was a single rock in the place whith a small sign on it and just above the ground.At the same time the dowsing indication was there as well before the sign if you know what I mean. So what was the need of a metal detector.
You just dig and see what comes up.
Of course it is quite impossible to unearth a big treasure this way because they put them deeper but ussually small objects are just only a few inches deep.
An another thing that I wanted to say is that by dowsing it is easy to exact pinpoint a small target and it is even easier when this target is a bronze one.
When we have a big one it is more wise to walk arround it doing circles and see using the triangulation method where all of the signal lines cross.
There are many other ways of spotting the exact place of the target but I do not want to go into that now.
look for example at the following photo

http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/7914/dsc0132wa.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/39/dsc0132wa.jpg/)

You can see clearly at the right bottom side a very small round sign verifying the existence of the object we found just bellow it in the ground.
It was an old copper oil lamp which had a map inside it from the period of the Turksish occupation.The lid of the lamp was all covered whith wax protecting the paper inside it but the object had some nice patina.
In this case there was no need to use a detector. We knew by looking at the spot that nobody touched it because everything was in place.
Apart from all these I am one of those treasure hunters that I don't trust the detectors when it comes to gold. They are good whith silver and copper but not whith gold.Their detecting capabillity falls dramatically and this is the reason that gold is so difficult to discover.
There you need other instruments to do the job
Regards
g-sani

[g-sani]

I also know many people arround that they dig straight away no matter if their detector is silent to a place they had an indication for gold using rods.
You know why?
Because it happened to have some bad experience in the past.They left the gold behind them for somebody else to find.
It very rare to verify this but yes it is happening and proved from time to time.

[J_Player]

Exactly!
And nobody ever will see anyone locate objects from long distance and to take it out without the help of any metal detecor... http://www.geotech1.com/forums/images/smilies/good.gif


Best wishes, :)
J_P


hi J_P, how is it going?
I am always using a metal detector as a help but believe me that it was many times that me together whith two friends discovered in swallow depth treasure maps inside small objects.Over here the treasure hunters call them colaouzo.
About always it was copper or bronze covered in natural wax so to prevent the damage moisture could do through time.
We found them by dowsing but most of the times and before digging we used to walk around the place in few meters distance looking for signs.So, allthough we had spotted the exact place to dig we had the option of an extra confirmation of the possible target.
I remember a few times that it was a single rock in the place whith a small sign on it and just above the ground.At the same time the dowsing indication was there as well before the sign if you know what I mean. So what was the need of a metal detector.
You just dig and see what comes up.
Of course it is quite impossible to unearth a big treasure this way because they put them deeper but ussually small objects are just only a few inches deep.
An another thing that I wanted to say is that by dowsing it is easy to exact pinpoint a small target and it is even easier when this target is a bronze one.
When we have a big one it is more wise to walk arround it doing circles and see using the triangulation method where all of the signal lines cross.
There are many other ways of spotting the exact place of the target but I do not want to go into that now.
look for example at the following photo

http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/7914/dsc0132wa.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/39/dsc0132wa.jpg/)

You can see clearly at the right bottom side a very small round sign verifying the existence of the object we found just bellow it in the ground.
It was an old copper oil lamp which had a map inside it from the period of the Turksish occupation.The lid of the lamp was all covered whith wax protecting the paper inside it but the object had some nice patina.
In this case there was no need to use a detector. We knew by looking at the spot that nobody touched it because everything was in place.
Apart from all these I am one of those treasure hunters that I don't trust the detectors when it comes to gold. They are good whith silver and copper but not whith gold.Their detecting capabillity falls dramatically and this is the reason that gold is so difficult to discover.
There you need other instruments to do the job
Regards
g-saniHi g-sani,
I believe you.

I know that dowsers find many treasures with no metal detector, and they find treasure maps that show where to find more treasures.
Even users of LRLs can find buried treasures from long distances without using metal detectors.
I do not say this is not true.

What I say is nobody ever will see anyone locate objects from long distance and to take it out without the help of a metal detector.
We will not see these people make the recoveries because these recoveries can only be made when there is no skeptical witness watching.
These recoveries with no metal detector are not possible to make unless the LRL believers and dowsing believers are making the detection alone, with no skeptical watchers.
If the dowser or LRL user asks a skeptic to hide a treasure and then watch them recover the hidden treasure, then the LRL or dowsing rod will not locate the treasure unless they also use a metal detector.

You see my photo above when I used my LRL to locate a gold ring from 1/2 mile... And you see my metal detector too ..!
I also located many other treasures when there was no metal detector, but I cannot show any skeptics proof when they are watching.
This is the reason why you see the photo only when I was using the metal detector.

I really believe you have great success to find buried treasure maps and treasures with only dowsing, same as LRL users have great success to find buried treasures too.
... But we will never see anyone make these recoveries without the help of a metal detector.


Best Wishes, :)
J_P

[g-sani]

I know physical dowsers that can easily locate targets in front of skeptics but they don't bother going to competitions and things like that.
To tell you the truth I got a friend which is good in a way you won't believe it and I encouraged him many times to travel together over to America to demonstrate his ability infront of skeptics like Randi and take the price of course but he didn't want to do it.
I also know that they are many that can do it infront of an audience but may be deeply in their heart they don't want other people to know and whenever they see 'no believers' arround they don't show their act in general.
When you discover a treasure and you are in a company of three or four persons everybody is going to take his share afterwards and this is how it should be.
A dowser won't help finding a treasure and give money to a partner that he is not believing in what he is doing.
No, I wouldn't do it myself and I believe that this is fair.
In the same way there are many people arround us that they don't believe in finding a treasure and this is nothing compared to what they believe about dowsing. Some of them even if they just listen to you talking about it they become ironic and upset.

Of course it is anybody right to believe what he wants but would it be nice to see a person like that becoming rich because he found a treasure?
No, :nono:
Especially when this person just happened to be there by chance in the right time and place whith others. And imagine that these treasure hunters have spend much time and effort to discover it and they were dowsing believers as well.
No it is not fair
Regards

[WM6]

I encouraged him many times to travel together over to America to demonstrate his ability infront of skeptics like Randi and take the price of course but he didn't want to do it.



Of course he didn't want, cause he know very well that this would be end of one more "famous magician".

It is more convenient to stay safe in local circle of his naive believers.

Old excuses and old tale stories, dear g-sani.

[g-sani]

Of course he didn't want, cause he know very well that this would be end of one more "famous magician".

It is more convenient to stay safe in local circle of his naive believers.

Old excuses and old tale stories, dear g-sani.

The only way you could change your mind or your attitude about dowsing is to see it happening whith your own eyes.
Regarding this I cannot tell you if it is going to be now for you, next decade or never.I suppose it is destiny and it is different from person to person.
The only thing I can assure you is that you have to be open minded before anything else.
There are people so blind that the information received from their eyes never passed from their brain.
Regards
g-sani

[Qiaozhi]

The only way you could change your mind or your attitude about dowsing is to see it happening whith your own eyes.
Regarding this I cannot tell you if it is going to be now for you, next decade or never.I suppose it is destiny and it is different from person to person.
The only thing I can assure you is that you have to be open minded before anything else.
There are people so blind that the information received from their eyes never passed from their brain.
Regards
g-sani
I wouldn't have put it so bluntly as WM6 did, but in principle I have to agree with his reply.
You should read up on the "ideomotor effect" before blindly believing the "information received from [your] eyes".

[matrix]

Hello forum
first let to say excuse me because of my anemic English.
i made ivconics circuit. it work properly. for example it detect the static charge of a comb from a distance of 1meter, electrical noises such fluorescent lamps coil from 3meters , and high voltage power lines from a kilometer or two.
I want attach images of that here but i dont know how can do it. may be limited because i am new user.
best wishes

[J_Player]

Hello forum
first let to say excuse me because of my anemic English.
i made ivconics circuit. it work properly. for example it detect the static charge of a comb from a distance of 1meter, electrical noises such fluorescent lamps coil from 3meters , and high voltage power lines from a kilometer or two.
I want attach images of that here but i dont know how can do it. may be limited because i am new user.
best wishesYou can post your pictures here when you type in the text for your post.
See diagram below to find "manage attachments".

You should reduce the size of your photos before you upload so they will fit on a computer screen.
Size 1000 x 800 is good, or other size smaller


Best Wishes, :)
J_P

[matrix]

understand, thank you j-p for learning. you must be a good teacher.
i am sorry . smaller than these was impossible

[Dell Winders]

I wouldn't have put it so bluntly as WM6 did, but in principle I have to agree with his reply.
You should read up on the "ideomotor effect" before blindly believing the "information received from [your] eyes".

Hello! Anybody home in there? Dowsing is; A trained Ideomotor response. Dell

[Geo]

Hi matrix.
Can you attach a photo from front side????
:)

[Dedevil]

I find two meters is better. 1st meter shows JP's just full of BS and 2nd shows degree of BS according to hair loss.:lol:

[J_Player]

understand, thank you j-p for learning. you must be a good teacher.
i am sorry . smaller than these was impossibleThe size photos you posted are a good size.
This fits well on most computer screens.

You built probably the best electric charge detector that can be found in this forum.
It was originally designed in Croatia by Ivconic.
In what part of the world do you use this detector?


Best Wishes, :)
J_P

[Dedevil]

The size photos you posted are a good size.
This fits well on most computer screens.

You built probably the best electric charge detector that can be found in this forum.
It was originally designed in Croatia by Ivconic.
In what part of the world do you use this detector?


Best Wishes, :)
J_P

Is this the best LRL? Or is JP just turning this into another Geotech1 amature electronics forum. If it is so gooood show your results.
My LRL field trip resulted in a constant 0.5 - 1.5 ounces of gold a day.

Lets all hold JP's hand with his doll in the other and see the actual results.

[J_Player]

Is this the best LRL? Or is JP just turning this into another Geotech1 amature electronics forum. If it is so gooood show your results.
My LRL field trip resulted in a constant 0.5 - 1.5 ounces of gold a day.

Lets all hold JP's hand with his doll in the other and see the actual results.No it's not an LRL at all.
It's an electric charge detector.
Instead of your misquote of "best LRL", scroll up and read what I actually posted :

"You built probably the best electric charge detector that can be found in this forum".
The reason it is probably the best electric charge detector in this forum is because it is the only differential op amp version,
and it is the only charge detector here which had the dish voltage tested and calibrated for the best charge detection.

If you are interested in test results, read the results matrix posted: http://www.longrangelocators.com/forums/showpost.php?p=145151&postcount=214
Or read what Ivconic posted after he designed it, built it, and tested it:
"I was tested ion detector and it is detecting my "home made" ions for real!
Airborne ions...maybe.
Burried gold and relics....NOT!
Why?
I guess cose burried stuff do not produce ions at all, or at least, not at wanted quantity!
http://www.longrangelocators.com/forums/showpost.php?p=41129&postcount=71


Best Wishes, :)
J_P

[Funfinder]

What J_P and Ivconic are telling is absolutly correct.


High voltage static / ionic / charge / EM-intensity field - detectors
don't works for buried objects, at least not in the usual configuration.

At minimum those need to be highly directional selective (multi-segment) and sensitive
for detecting the difference but if this works is still extremly doubtful
because even a change of some centimeters concerning the distance from ground to detector - antenna will create already a huge change in static field.

It may work on a site like a mountain that contains extremly nonmineralic rock but for shure not on wet soil, earth or sand!


In 2010 some people of the geotech LRLs forum have me wrong
advice so I built 2 of such detectors and the second one is extremly sensitive because it uses the bodys capacitance and ground-contact by a direct electrode-to-finger connection but so far no real use for metal-detection.

Perhaps such devices need an automatic static charge balance circuit, comparable with GEB, done by a highspeed chip, so those really can find out if their's somewhere a static field on a small place that has enough power-difference compared to the surrounding area.

However, it must be clear that such a detection-method would be not
long range but only working if a person walks directly over such areas.

[matrix]

Hi matrix.
Can you attach a photo from front side????
:)
teflon bush is replaced by radiology plastic slide

[matrix]

Hi all, I finished it last month. but This device as j_player said detects just ions with enough amount of charge (voltage), Not buried metal objects(YET), ...
In what part of the world do you use this detector?


J_P
I am Iranian my friend
best wishes
matrix

[alafeef]

hi to everyone here >>>

i am a new member >>

i wish will be happy with you.

[alafeef]

hi to everyone >

assembled allreedy this circuit but still i have problem with cx i could not find the suitable cx.

can you help me?

[mahinda]

this type long range circuit i have made but not work
next to i going make compass lrl gold detector please help me
can you send me circuit diagrams

thank you

[leviterande]

Hi J-P Ivonic and all, this idea may or may not be dead yet. There are a couple of tricks left to analyse.

All conductors incl gold produce leak ions and particles when a strong electric field is present, i.e. HV. In fact, keeping a good insulating seal on hv conductors can be a great problem in many HV applications. Building 30kv capacitors was a much bigger challenge than I ever thought.

Lets see an updated possibility:


-instead of low voltages, the machine should produce high voltage (50 000 volts and up)i.e. very reaching ionization in the air.

-A big invisible sphere ( many feet)of affected ionized air is thus produced.

-All kinds of airborne and non airborne ions and particles will get attracted to your detector.

-ions/particles from soil- buried metals should be produced because of the strong electric field.
HV HF AC is by far the best at produce long range ionized air. HF HV AC is extremely penetrating! Try a Tesla coil and you will see. My tiny 10w Tesla coil produced 10 inch sparks, that is, a very poorly made TC powered by tiny low voltage capacitors, low Q, non matched resonance.


The question is how close does this electric field need to be near a buried conductor inorder for the conductor to leak particles. The HV probe could also be injected into wet ground.

This is the conductive alternative method which has pros and cons. There is another Inductive method for later.
Any consideration and thoughts?

Regards
Karl

[reza vir]

Approximate the error
Not in any place

[leviterande]

Approximate the error
Not in any place

Hi!
I didnt get it?

[Mike(Mont)]

There are other ways to achieve excitation besides high voltage.

I realize everyone thinks more power is the answer. I'll give you some help here and tell you that is the wrong path. I also realize there is nothing written on the frequency generators, but I did read an article on pyramid power. Vern Cameron did some work with some people you might find at the Borderland Sciences website.

[g-sani]

Could you put the link Mike?

[Mike(Mont)]

I've tried to find that info on the pyramid energy. No luck.

[Mike(Mont)]

As for Vern Cameron, the book on the original aurameter has some stuff in it, a starting point in your research. I'm sure Vern was an excellent dowser, but his ideas about it do not seem accurate. But that group did some interesting work.

[J_Player]

Hi J-P Ivonic and all, this idea may or may not be dead yet. There are a couple of tricks left to analyse.

All conductors incl gold produce leak ions and particles when a strong electric field is present, i.e. HV. In fact, keeping a good insulating seal on hv conductors can be a great problem in many HV applications. Building 30kv capacitors was a much bigger challenge than I ever thought.

Lets see an updated possibility:


-instead of low voltages, the machine should produce high voltage (50 000 volts and up)i.e. very reaching ionization in the air.

-A big invisible sphere ( many feet)of affected ionized air is thus produced.

-All kinds of airborne and non airborne ions and particles will get attracted to your detector.

-ions/particles from soil- buried metals should be produced because of the strong electric field.
HV HF AC is by far the best at produce long range ionized air. HF HV AC is extremely penetrating! Try a Tesla coil and you will see. My tiny 10w Tesla coil produced 10 inch sparks, that is, a very poorly made TC powered by tiny low voltage capacitors, low Q, non matched resonance.


The question is how close does this electric field need to be near a buried conductor inorder for the conductor to leak particles. The HV probe could also be injected into wet ground.

This is the conductive alternative method which has pros and cons. There is another Inductive method for later.
Any consideration and thoughts?

Regards
KarlHi leviterande,
I worked a number of years in an industry that used high voltage to collect dust particles in industrial air pollution control.
We built giant electrostatic precipitators sometimes 50 feet tall and several hundred feet wide and deep. These are similar to the small electrostatic air cleaners you can buy for your home, except these were giant scale for removing dust before it enters the smoke stack at a power plant or cement plant (see diagram here: http://ceenve3.civeng.calpoly.edu/cota/ESP_diagram.gif).
There is a huge amount of technical information about this technology due to the amount of money that was spent on research to satisfy air quality authorities.
Here is some of the pertinent information:
These electrostatic dust collectors are operated at around 50,000-60,000 volts at up to 2000 milliamps depending on the size of the dust collecting volume.
The charging electrode wires that hang between the metal curtains are suspended by ceramic insulators which carry the weight of a bank of 1/8" diameter steel wires, and weights hanging at the bottom of the wires (maybe 10 pounds each weight). These insulators have a length of about 1 foot or more of insulating ceramic between the charged electrode and the grounded bearing surface. The insulators are kept in a compartment at the top of the structure where they are not exposed to flue gasses which carry dust particles that you are collecting in the collector below.

About the properties of the high voltage:
The principle for collecting dust is to raise the voltage high enough on the electrode to create a corona discharge. This corona discharge will charge any dust particles passing in the gas stream so they will be attracted to the oppositely charged metal curtains, which are located about 5-6 inches away from the electrode. The dust attaches to the surface of the metal curtains, then the power is temporarily shut off while a mechanical hammer beats on the top of the curtain to shake the dust loose to fall in a hopper below. Then the power is turned back on to collect more dust.
The voltage has an automatic voltage controller which will slowly ramp the voltage upward until a spark arcs across from the electrode to the oppositely charged metal curtain. Then, at the time of the spark, the power shuts off within a cycle of the 60 HZ period, and resumes 1 or 2 cycles later at a lower voltage which will slowly ramp up until it sparks again, and repeat the process to keep the voltage as high as practical.
When using this principle of charging dust particles with corona discharge, the rule of thumb is you can expect to need about 1 inch separation between the electrode and the oppositely charged curtain for each 10,000 volts on the electrode. This is why the curtains are separated from the charging electrodes at 5-6 inches for 50,000-60,000 volts. The objective in the case of an industrial electrostatic precipitator is to remove dust from a gas stream. The results were usually measured in the range of 99.95 to 99.99% dust removal.

Now if we want to apply any of this high voltage principle to metal detecting from a distance, we could start with some known facts:
1. 50,000-60,000 volts is dangerous when you have enough current to attract dust particles or ions.
2. The corona discharge area which will charge a particle or ion lies essentially within a 5-10 inch distance from the charged electrode.
3. The corona discharge will increase at places where there are imperfections and sharp points on the electrode. These areas are also more dangerous, because they tend to be where sparks originate that can be harmful to people in the area.

Looking at just the first few pertinent facts, I would never decide to operate a high voltage device to collect things from the air in a treasure hunting scenario. High voltage seems more suitable inside a closed metal box with no high voltage exposed to anything outside, and chains and padlocks on all the access ports to the inside where the high voltage is being used.

When using high voltage in lower current settings, it can be relatively safe, similar to the static electricity that we feel snapping when we touch something metal after becoming charged. Even this is dangerous to some people with health concerns. But if we were to use high voltage at low currents, then we would not have the power necessary to attract ions or particles from more than a few inches at best.
Just my opinion.

Best wishes, :)
J_P

[reza vir]

Yes, I also saw sets are high voltage low error metals searching.

[Jossz]

Hello everyone!:)

I want to build the ionic negative ion detector.
What is the built-in measuring instrument ranges in?
I did not find this information in the description or in the schematic.

BR
Jossz

[J_Player]

Hello everyone!:)

I want to build the ionic negative ion detector.
What is the built-in measuring instrument ranges in?
I did not find this information in the description or in the schematic.

BR
Jossz
The schematic shows a meter marked ± 50. I believe this means it is a meter in which the needle is normally centered in the middle of the meter when there is no signal. But When there is a positive 50 milliamps current, the needle will move fully to the right side, and when there is a negative 50 milliamps current, the needle will move fully to the left side.

Best Wishes, :)
J_P

[Jossz]

Dear J Player,

Thank you very much for your help.:cheers:
BR

Jossz