MINERO [Archive] - LongRangeLocators Forums

Carl-NC

10-28-2005, 02:43 AM

The "dissected" is the microcontroller version with an only potentiometer.

The PDC 205 and PDC 210 with two potentiometers that works in the limit is extremely sensitive. VERY. I agree the microcontroller/semiautomatic version (early PDC) is not good...

I'll consider the possibility that adding a second potentiometer to a concept that simply does not work, might suddenly enable it to start working, no matter how remote that possibility is. However, I'll remain skeptical of Mineoro's claims, until I see one of their devices work in a fair test.

I have, in the past, offered my $25,000 challenge to Mineoro's US distributor. He declined. In July, I received an email from Mineoro:

Dear Mr. Moreland,

We would like to double-accept your challenge, as :

- MINEORO manufacturer of electronic LRL and
- SEGMAX manufacturer of mechanical inertial detectors by ionic and electrostatics fields (not dowsing)

- Our system of detection is by ionic fields and electrostatic fields.
- It is neither electromagnetic nor terrestrial magnetic or magnets.
- Our condition is that you have to publish results on your site and forums in the USA, and also we will publish on our site, and other international sites.
- All our search here in Brazil will be audio-taped and filmed.
- The inventors prefer that Mr. Carl Moreland himself be present as a Proctor or witness to attend a demostration of a new phenomenom in the area of science. If that could not be possible we also accept another person graduated in Electric Engineering or Electronics.
- We will need documents signed by Carl Moreland autenticated by legal authorities in the USA.
- The inventors , claimants, are called:
a) Jonas Paulo Fernandes DamÃ¡sio (70)
b) Victor Alonso C. OÂ´Campos (63)

- After the rain, the ionic electrostatic fields take from 2 to 5 days to recover to an ideal amplitude. Therefore it will be necessary that Proctors will be able to stay in Brazil approximately 10 to 15 days.

We would like to make clear that we are going to claim your challenge as two different companies, Mineoro and Segmax, with two different LRLs, and when successfully completing the tests, you will have to pay USD 25.000 to each of the different Claimant companies.

Looking forward to your news,

Best Regards,

JPF DamÃ¡sio
Inventor
MINEORO LONG RANGE DIRECTIONAL DETECTORS

Oddly, when I tried to reply, I discovered that my email address was being blocked. I used an alternate method, and wrote:

Mr. DamÃ¡sio,

There is only one $25,000 prize available. The first LRL that can be demonstrated using a double-blind protocol will win the prize and, after that, no other money is being offered. Therefore, Mineoro and Segmax may apply, but if one wins the prize the other cannot.

Please explain the need to stay 10 to 15 days. The standard double-blind test, as described on my web site, takes only a few hours at the most.

Regards,
Carl

I have yet to hear back from them.

- Carl

schatzsucher

10-28-2005, 02:51 AM

:D :D that is what I had meant

schatzsucher

10-28-2005, 03:04 AM

@Carl:

send also so email on okm :)

mineorogreece

10-28-2005, 11:43 AM

JUST TO LET YOU KNOW I HAVE RESEARCHED MINEORO DETECTORS VERY MUCH.I HAVE COME UP WITH THIS:
IT IS SCIENTIFIC INFORMATION THAT EVERY BURIED METAL GENERATES AN ANOMALY IN THE ELECTRIC AND MAGNETIC FIELD OF THE EARTH.
SECONDLY,I HAVE TAKEN APART THE PDC205 MODEL WITH 2 POTENTIOMETERS.HERE IS WHAT I FOUND AS A BIOMED ENGINEER THAT I AM:
THE IONIC CHAMBER OR SENSOR AS YOU SAY,IS MADE UP OF AN ANODE A CATHODE AND A GOLD LEAF IN BETWEEN.THE BLACKBOX CIRCUIT IS NOT A REGENARATIVE RADIO RECEIVER.WHAT IT DOES IS, IT SENDS A SQUARE PULSE AT 11HZ TO THE ANODE WHICH IS VERY SHARP AT ITS TIP, AND IT GENERATES A SPIKE ON THE GOLD LEAF WITHOUT TOUCHING IT,WHICH THEY CLAIM THAT IT RELEASES GOLD IONS IN THE CHAMBER WITH POSITIVE POLARITY.
WHAT THE EQUIPMENT ACTUALLY DOES IS THAT IT DETECTS THE ELECTRIC FIELD OF THE EARTH ,IT AMPLIFIES IT AND WHEN YOU CALIBRATE IT,IT ACTUALLY ADDS THE SIGNAL OF THE ELECTRIC FIELD AND THE OUTPUT OF THE IONIC CHAMBER TOGETHER AND EQUALIZES TO A CERTAIN LEVEL.
IF YOU DETECT GOLD IONS COMING FROM BURIED GOLD ,INSTANTLY THE DETECTOR WILL BEEP BECAUSE IT HAS SENSED A SMALL ARC IN THE IONIC CHAMBER BECAUSE THE IONS POSITIVE AND NEGATIVE INTERACT OR SHORT CIRCUIT TOGETHER.THAT IS HOW THIS UNIT WORKS.
THE CIRCUITS DO WORK AND I HAVE TESTED THEM EXTENSIVELY.THE ONLY PART I HAVE NOT FOUND ANY INFORMATION ABOUT IS THAT BURIED METALS RELEASE IONS OF THEMSELVES IN THE ATMOSPHERE IN VERY SMALL TRACES.THAT IS WHAT MINEORO CLAIMS TO BE THEIR DISCOVERY.THANK YOU

Carl-NC

10-28-2005, 01:49 PM

I HAVE TAKEN APART THE PDC205 MODEL WITH 2 POTENTIOMETERS.HERE IS WHAT I FOUND AS A BIOMED ENGINEER THAT I AM:

Perhaps you could post some pics of what you found...

WHAT THE EQUIPMENT ACTUALLY DOES IS THAT IT DETECTS THE ELECTRIC FIELD OF THE EARTH ,IT AMPLIFIES IT AND WHEN YOU CALIBRATE IT,IT ACTUALLY ADDS THE SIGNAL OF THE ELECTRIC FIELD AND THE OUTPUT OF THE IONIC CHAMBER TOGETHER AND EQUALIZES TO A CERTAIN LEVEL.

If the device detects electric fields, then this would be very easy to test, by turning a nearby electric field on and off, and seeing if the device responds.

IF YOU DETECT GOLD IONS COMING FROM BURIED GOLD ,INSTANTLY THE DETECTOR WILL BEEP BECAUSE IT HAS SENSED A SMALL ARC IN THE IONIC CHAMBER BECAUSE THE IONS POSITIVE AND NEGATIVE INTERACT OR SHORT CIRCUIT TOGETHER.THAT IS HOW THIS UNIT WORKS.

An ion is an atom, literally... if gold continuously releases ions, then it is dissolving. And, the only way the chamber of the PDC can detect such an ion, is for the ion to physically enter the chamber. This is not possible.

Also, this implies that physical atoms must leave the gold target, come up out of the ground, and float across the atmosphere to the PDC. You would be at the mercy of the wind. And if these atoms could enter the chamber and recombine with generated ions, there would be no directional information in this action. The atoms could come from anywhere.

All of this adds up to: tain't likely.

THE ONLY PART I HAVE NOT FOUND ANY INFORMATION ABOUT IS THAT BURIED METALS RELEASE IONS OF THEMSELVES IN THE ATMOSPHERE IN VERY SMALL TRACES.THAT IS WHAT MINEORO CLAIMS TO BE THEIR DISCOVERY.THANK YOU

More of that amazing science that scientists have somehow overlooked.

- Carl

schatzsucher

10-28-2005, 10:44 PM

itÂ´s a new generation of diving rod

mineorogreece

10-29-2005, 05:45 AM

HELLO CARL,
THANK YOU FOR YOUR POST.I WOULD LIKE TO SAY A FEW THINGS HERE.
FIRSTLY YOU SAID
QUOTE:
An ion is an atom, literally... if gold continuously releases ions, then it is dissolving. And, the only way the chamber of the PDC can detect such an ion, is for the ion to physically enter the chamber. This is not possible.

Also, this implies that physical atoms must leave the gold target, come up out of the ground, and float across the atmosphere to the PDC. You would be at the mercy of the wind. And if these atoms could enter the chamber and recombine with generated ions, there would be no directional information in this action. The atoms could come from anywhere.

All of this adds up to: tain't likely.

OK ,SCIENCE SAYS THAT ALL OBJECTS ON EARTH, AND THE METALS, -BURIED OR NOT-HAVE AN ION FIELD AROUND THEM,AND THIS CAN BE SEEN WITH AN ION DETECTOR.(SO IT IS NOT THAT GOLD IS DISSOLVING)
ALSO THE ELECTRIC FIELD OF THE EARTH DOES NOT SHIFT WITH WIND.
SECONDLY IONIC FIELDS AND ELECTROSTATIC FIELDS GO THROUGH PLASTIC EASILY,THEY CANNOT GO THROUGH METAL BUT PLASTIC AND FIBERGLASS AND PVC THEY CAN.
THANK YOU ONCE AGAIN

Carl-NC

10-29-2005, 02:38 PM

OK ,SCIENCE SAYS THAT ALL OBJECTS ON EARTH, AND THE METALS, -BURIED OR NOT-HAVE AN ION FIELD AROUND THEM,AND THIS CAN BE SEEN WITH AN ION DETECTOR.(SO IT IS NOT THAT GOLD IS DISSOLVING)

Can you show me where science says this? Can you tell me how long it takes for gold to start ionizing?

ALSO THE ELECTRIC FIELD OF THE EARTH DOES NOT SHIFT WITH WIND. SECONDLY IONIC FIELDS AND ELECTROSTATIC FIELDS GO THROUGH PLASTIC EASILY,THEY CANNOT GO THROUGH METAL BUT PLASTIC AND FIBERGLASS AND PVC THEY CAN.

So you are saying that the PDC actually detects the ion's electric field, at a distance, and not the ion itself? Do you realize how absolutely impossible it is to detect the electric field of individual ions at a distance, especially in the presence of a large and varying ambient field? This is why ion detectors universally rely on ions physically contacting a collector plate, or going through a drift tube.

One other issue... drift tube ion detectors can distinguish between ions by their behaviour inside the tube. Simple collector-plate detectors cannot tell one type of ion from another... it just detects a charge. IF ion fields could be detected from a distance, there would be no way of knowing the type of ions... it would simply be a variation in the electric field, that carries no unique signature of the source (please, please don't tell me that gold ions have a specific frequency). So gold would be no different than iron or copper, or the ions emitted by a DC electric motor, or high-voltage power lines, or any other ions floating around.

So far, your explanations don't correlate with science. I still await photos of your dissected PDC205... perhaps they will show something that makes sense.

- Carl

Carl-NC

10-29-2005, 02:40 PM

itÂ´s a new generation of diving rod

No, it's not that... there is no dowsing mechanism involved at all.

- Carl

goldfinder

10-30-2005, 03:52 AM

I built a very sensitive ion field detector to test the Minero claims and posted this before. The basic results showed that there are so many ion source and electrostatic field sources in the outside environment (like trees and schrubs) that any discrimination would be highly unlike - translated into street English - the Minero can't work as advertised - more BS&M (Blue Smoke and Mirrors).
Goldfinder

Esteban

10-30-2005, 09:02 PM

Detection of ions (molecules in movement) can be selected. Ionic selective detection is a reality and today exist special fets called ISFETS wich detects ions and substances. In accord to Scientific American:

The R&D effort started in late 2001, when Koehl, an electrical engineer, arrived at Cambridge from the California Institute of Technology. "From the beginning, I had the idea to create a small, cheap chemical detection system for the military and Homeland Security and then, later, for commercial markets," Koehl says. He soon met Boyle and Ruiz-Alonso, and during the next months, the engineers looked at a lot of sensor technologies, "trying to evaluate what we could take to the next level," Boyle reports.
A chemical sensor "is essentially a filter device," Boyle explains. "Each substance has its own signature smell or fingerprint. That's what we filter out." For Owlstone's sensor, the team chose to develop a relatively new and little known analytic technique called high-field asymmetric waveform ion mobility spectrometry (or FAIMS). The approach sorts compounds according to how their charged forms--chemical ions--move through a gas when subjected to electric fields.
As the ions are made to pass between charged metal plates, varying electric fields (that is, the asymmetric waveforms) drive them toward either side and back again successively, eventually causing most of the ions to hit the plates. But careful application of direct-current voltages to the plates keeps targeted molecules from hitting the sides until they reach a detector at the end. Each DC voltage correlates to an ion type, so the device can be "tuned" to detect specific substances.

More info here:

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=000047AB-0D55-1306-8A6883414B7F0000

But this technic is not new. Another technic (no new) uses an oscillator at typycal frequency of 10 Mhz. This technic is called:

Quartz crystal microbalance (QCM)
A quartz crystal microbalance (QCM) sensor comprises a quartz crystal coated with a chemically-selective film. The crystal is configured in an oscillator circuit and typically has a base frequency of 10 MHz. When vapours from the sample interact with the coating film, some are absorbed, causing an increase in the mass of the film. This in turn leads to a decrease in the frequency of the sensor and this is measured as the response. The frequency shift is typically about some hundred Hertz. The advantages of QCMs include high selectivity, high sensitivity, stability over wide temperature ranges, low response to humidity, and good reproducibility.

This technic was used in airport for to detect explosives. For example, tissue of the skin of X reptile is placed in a one face of the crystal and the few molecules of explosive (one part in 200,000,000 parts of molecules of air) can be detected.

Esteban

10-30-2005, 11:13 PM

Carl
Go these points for to analize:

1. 2 potentiometers no mean that all Mineoro's models have the same electronic circuit.

* * * * * * * * *

2. The next mean: the rain causes disperssion. 2 or 5 days after the rain, Mineoro recover his capability. So, they need that you and your witnesses to stay 10 or 15 days in Brazil, because sometimes there are many rains. This is part of his condition:

After the rain, the ionic electrostatic fields take from 2 to 5 days to recover to an ideal amplitude. Therefore it will be necessary that Proctors will be able to stay in Brazil approximately 10 to 15 days.

* * * * * * * * * *

3. For Mineoro, LRLs no mean DOWSING RODS. Mean: Long Range Locator, in this case electronic long distance detector:

We would like to make clear that we are going to claim your challenge as two different companies, Mineoro and Segmax, with two different LRLs, and when successfully completing the tests, you will have to pay USD 25.000 to each of the different Claimant companies.

* * * * * * * * *

4. The double-blind test only is for dowsing rods. OK?

Mr. DamÃ¡sio,

There is only one $25,000 prize available. The first LRL that can be demonstrated using a double-blind protocol will win the prize and, after that, no other money is being offered. Therefore, Mineoro and Segmax may apply, but if one wins the prize the other cannot.

* * * * * * * * *

5. In accord Carl Moreland's conditions in the section:

Standard LRL Test

Revised 24 March 2005

$25,000 Challenge

FAQ / FAE

Summary

3. No traditional metal detection, magnetometry, or radiation detection is allowed. The test is limited to the LRL only.

In the case of Mineoro's electronic devices, the Standard Test Protocol is not applicable, because is a kind of radiation detector. (If we consider Mineoro works as ionization chamber.)

In accord to this point 3., Carl accept the existence of another kind of metal detectors with the capability to detect at X distance.

* * * * * * * * *

I think there are confusion respect dowsing rods and electronic long range locator. Obviously, the "treatment" is not applicable for Mineoro's electronic devices, this is PDC or another similar Mineoro electronic models.

Carl-NC

10-31-2005, 02:53 AM

Esteban,

The two examples of ion detection that you cite both require the ions to physically contact a sensor, which exactly support my point that the Mineoro claims of remotely detecting ions are unlikely.

Do you work for Mineoro? You seem to be speaking for them in regards to my challenge.

- Carl

mineorogreece

10-31-2005, 02:41 PM

Esteban

10-31-2005, 11:01 PM

Carl

I don't work for Mineoro. YES I know the two inventors. I assure you the both investigate long range detectors since many years and works all the days in this and they are serious persons. I was the person who said them the microcontroller version is not good, because the long distance detector REQUIRES external sensibility control, as old model DCH 85, you can see in a photo sent here (USA owner).

Now, via your message, I know your challenge.

I make semi-long distance detectors and contrast the PDC. The place where sounds my detector, sounds the PDC 205 or 210 and found the target.

I'm not scientific, but if I wait explanation from science WHY a simple RF detector in association with another electronics detects a coin (buried) 20 or more meters from the detector, never I will do experiments.

Why I involved in this? Because my first experience in metal detection was long distance, not the traditional, wich causes in me tremendous impression. As you, never I believe all this is possible.

The advantage of long range metal detector is the non-contact with the soil, mean don't have effects of mineralized soils and/or soil effect.

The more effective distance for a coin (80 m) with PDC 205 (in my particular experience) was in salty terrain. In another terrains decreases for a single coin. And this is a scientific fact (for me), because is a proof that the electrical conductivity of the soil increases much times this kind of non-contact with the soil detector system.

Ionic or electrical phenomenom, RF or what? Long range detector is an old reality. The photo in B&W of 1979 post now is another proof. Mr. John Baldwin (English, the more old man of all, died in 1987-88, don't remember very well) sustain a silver object found via electromagnetic-RF detector type radar. Mr. John and his different teams found thounsands gold and silver objects since 1960, first tube long range detectors, later transistorized as this photo.

Carl-NC

10-31-2005, 11:14 PM

HELLO AGAIN
CARL YOU ARE INSISTING THAT THE IONS HAVE TO BE DETECTED AT A COLLECTOR PLATE,INSIDE THE MINEORO IONIC CHAMBER THERE IS A ANTENNA OR ANODE WHICH COLLECTS THE IONS ,AND BE SURE IONS DO GO THROUGH PVC PIPES WHICH IS WHAT THE MINEORO IONIC CHAMBER IS MADE OF.
ELECTRIC FIELDS AND IONIC FIELDS GO THROUGH PLASTIC AND PVC.
THANK YOU

mg,

Are you saying that gold atoms can float right through the wall of a PVC pipe? Really?

And if the Mineoro relies on gold atoms physically entering the chamber, how in the world can the device determine where they came from?

Also, what is is the difference between an electric field, and an "ionic field"?

- Carl

P.S. -- Do you, or do you not, have photos of your dissected unit? I would personally like to see exactly what you found inside the chamber.

Carl-NC

11-02-2005, 01:02 AM

I don't work for Mineoro. YES I know the two inventors. I assure you the both investigate long range detectors since many years and works all the days in this and they are serious persons.
.....
I'm not scientific, but if I wait explanation from science WHY a simple RF detector in association with another electronics detects a coin (buried) 20 or more meters from the detector, never I will do experiments.

I'm not questioning their dedication, just their technical claims. Whether it's ions, or electrostatics, or whatever, it just doesn't jive with well-known science. And keep in mind, that I did test a PDC205, and found that it could not detect gold.

Based on my experiences, and the claims of Mineoro, I will gladly extend my challenge to their product, providing that a fair test can be agreed upon. A test as shown in the Kurt Kluey video, would be unacceptable.

BTW, I like the pics you've posted. Interesting.

- Carl

Carl-NC

11-02-2005, 04:30 AM

I make semi-long distance detectors and contrast the PDC. The place where sounds my detector, sounds the PDC 205 or 210 and found the target.

Esteban,

Does your design rely on similar principles as the Mineoro (i.e., ion or electrostatics)? Can you suggest a simple experiment in which this principle can be objectively demonstrated? I will gladly build up a test circuit and try it out.

- Carl

Esteban

11-03-2005, 05:01 PM

Carl:

Mineoro PDC with two controls is not the same you show here. In the past I had the model â€œdissectedâ€ in this forum and said the both inventors that this is not the ideal for smalls items (coins, rings, etc.), only for big masses.

In consideration to my suggest (I think), they added controls wich works in the threshold.

My next step is detection with the new PDC and shows via video how to adjust and detect with it. You need X experience with this detector for to center the exact point of the target.

No mean that the persons who read all this buy immediately PDC according my words, because if you don't have certain searching method with it, you'll failure.

Remember this: PDC also detects copper, bronze, silver and alloys of these.

My designs in not the same than Mineoro. I finish a design as the B&W photos I post here and consist in a search oscillator coil - radio - audio signalizer and another electronics.

Waiting more good weather for to test in inland. I'll post results.

Carl, sorry, for the moment can't post any technical info.

hung

11-04-2005, 06:08 PM

I have just returned from a trip to Mineoro's factory where I performed tests with the detectors and met Damasio, the inventor .

I own a PDC 210 and there I experimented with the new GDP. It had been raining for 2 months almost non stop and the ionic field of buried objects gets extremely weak as the atmosphere gets charged negatively. Even with this scenario, the PDC 210 beeped over really small targets in their test field. But I had to almost touch the ground for this. The new model which is more sensitive responded from 15'' away tough. Their test field is full of ancient jewelry buried because as soon they started to dig the located objects they learned they were small objects like rings, necklaces, etc.. due to the place has served as a spot for farmer families celebration parties in the 19th century. So the terrain is full of objects which they chose not to dig in order to remain as test targets.

The new model has a special switch that when engaged, allows the user to work near high voltage power lines. I was informed that a gold brooch was found close to a 13,000 volts powerline tower.

This discussion regarding wether or not the ionic field detection is for real is null for me. I know it's true and Mineoro detectors are finely crafted precision instruments which are able to classify the ions of gold and detect it. Just that. If one studies the phenomena he will know.
Of course, as ionic fields highly depend of earth's 'humour' there are the special ocasions in which the ionic field is ideal as their website explain.

Also one thing I learned from Damasio is that he's not worried at all about people trying to dismantle the device to see how it works or trying to copy it.
There are components inside that no one will ever know how it works or what it is for, except the inventor himself.

Just my 2 cents.

Carl-NC

11-05-2005, 12:36 PM

...Mineoro detectors are finely crafted precision instruments which are able to classify the ions of gold and detect it.

They could "classify" the ions, only if the ions could enter the chamber. Which they cannot, because it's sealed. So, regardless of what else might be going on with the Mineoro, it is NOT classifying gold ions.

Also one thing I learned from Damasio is that he's not worried at all about people trying to dismantle the device to see how it works or trying to copy it. There are components inside that no one will ever know how it works or what it is for, except the inventor himself.

Not at all... the unit I opened had nothing but standard, off-the-shelf components, and easily could be duplicated. I saw no point in doing so, since the device was unable to detect gold, but apparently someone in Germany HAS duplicated the Mineoro, not for the purpose of detecting gold, but for generating sales.

- Carl

Carl-NC

11-05-2005, 12:49 PM

When Dell asked for internal photos of the PDC, I completely forgot about the "Center and Deep" accessory that came with it. It is a dowsing rod. Nothing more. Inside, there is a wood dowel with a piece of wire spiral-wrapped around it. This wire is not connected to anything.

In my opinion, this confirms that the Mineoro units are a fraud. If they did work as claimed, then there would be no need to include bogus nonsense like a dowsing rod.

- Carl

hung

11-05-2005, 01:53 PM

They could "classify" the ions, only if the ions could enter the chamber. Which they cannot, because it's sealed. So, regardless of what else might be going on with the Mineoro, it is NOT classifying gold ions.

If you've read mineoro greece's detailed explanation of the working principle of the ionic chamber above, you've learned that as the ionic chamber has a gold leaf inside, the sonic pulse charges it with positive ions and as soon it encounters its negative counterpart, a crash in nano level occurs.
Yes the ions do penetrate in the chamber thorugh electrostatic flow. Remember it's made of PVC. And yes they do classify the ions. If this method was of public domain then everybody would be building its own PDC or whatever.

hung

11-05-2005, 02:02 PM

In my opinion, this confirms that the Mineoro units are a fraud. If they did work as claimed, then there would be no need to include bogus nonsense like a dowsing rod.

When I was there, I was told they are waiting your reply about conducting the tests in Brazil. Damasio has health problems and I don't think he could make the trip to US.
So, grab your sunscreen, swiming suit and come over here to enjoy the beautiful beaches. I will be in the first row to watch the contest.

Carl-NC

11-05-2005, 05:06 PM

Yes the ions do penetrate in the chamber thorugh electrostatic flow. Remember it's made of PVC.

So you're saying that gold atoms outside the PVC, can magically appear inside the PVC, by "electrostatic flow"? Sounds "too good to be true", eh?

As I mentioned before, this bring up another problem... how does the PDC know WHERE the ions came from? How can it be directional? Wind could have blown the ions all over the place. Please don't tell me that ions leave the buried gold, and fly out in a straight line until they hit the PDC... I know better.

And yes they do classify the ions. If this method was of public domain then everybody would be building its own PDC or whatever.

The PDC I looked at has nowhere near the circuitry needed to classify ions. I'm absolutely convinced, per my electronics background, and according to what I found inside the PDC, that it definitely does not classify ions.

When I was there, I was told they are waiting your reply about conducting the tests in Brazil.

Despite their blocking my emails, I did reply... the last thing I heard was an email from Patricia:

Mr. DamÃ¡sio was not in office the past two days. Though we talked over the phone and he told me we were going to present a test method, as you described in your site is one of the manufacturers options "For manufacturers, I will still intertain other protocol suggestions. In those cases, it is up to the manufacturer to specify what his device can do, and to what extent, and to specify a test method that will demostrate the claimed capabilities."

Next week we will be forwarding it for your study.

Regards,

MINEORO LONG RANGE DIRECTIONAL DETECTORS
Patricia C.
International Sales

That was July 29. Ball's in their court.

- Carl

Dunderhead

11-05-2005, 10:12 PM

Carl,

Me thinks up way to scammer you money for me. I makes gieger tube go and then radioactives gold with radioactiv substances with alphie particles to go far and then I can always find. you can't not find later but I can always find and show you how I can find my double blinded gold.

Dunderhead

11-05-2005, 10:25 PM

I find circuit for device for detect radiosubstances need 500 volts supply source for detect tube to arc in tube with xenon gas of ionic containment with energy passage of radioparticles.

http://www.imagesco.com/articles/geiger/04.html

Carl-NC

11-06-2005, 12:13 AM

Me thinks up way to scammer you money for me. I makes gieger tube go and then radioactives gold with radioactiv substances with alphie particles to go far and then I can always find. you can't not find later but I can always find and show you how I can find my double blinded gold.

Yup, except the rules explicitly forbid radiation (radioactivity) detectors.

I find circuit for device for detect radiosubstances need 500 volts supply source for detect tube to arc in tube with xenon gas of ionic containment with energy passage of radioparticles.

Yup again, radiation can penetrate solid substances, because the particles are much smaller than the molecular structure of the solid. Ions -- especially a big atom like gold -- cannot penetrate a solid such as PVC.

- Carl

Dunderhead

11-06-2005, 12:38 AM

Carl,

Ah, you have are smart rule can see forward looking.

black box high volts power soucer for detector tube?

tests with radiosoucers?

Carl-NC

11-06-2005, 03:25 AM

Ah, you have are smart rule can see forward looking.

black box high volts power soucer for detector tube?

tests with radiosoucers?

No, the black box does not generate a high voltage... the Mineoro has no high voltages anywhere.

- Carl

nncunew

11-08-2005, 05:39 PM

Amigo, veo que eres muy ducho en los temas de los LRL... yo aquÃ* pasando tremendo trabajo con el inglÃ©s.

Oye, tu pudieras mandarme algo sobre LRL, por ejemplo algÃºn esquema que me permita hacer experimentos que muestren este tema de los LRL. AlgÃºn plano de equipo que encuentre algo a distancia, aunque sea grande...

Cambiando el tema, hice una mezcla de detectores y he dado el primer paso en este tema de los PI, hice una antena de 8.2 inchs y 20awg con 28 turns, me ha salido un equipo con una LM 709 de preamplificador, pero solo obtengo una lata de refresco a unos 40 a 45 cm... y suena muy feo, quizÃ¡s se te ocurra que debo hacer algo.

Saludos

nncunew@yahoo.com

Carl-NC

11-09-2005, 09:18 PM

Experimenting with LRLs is tricky business, it's very easy to get caught up in self-deception. Right now, I know of no instrument that will find treasure at a distance, at least the kind of instrument treasure hunters are dreaming of.

Regarding your PI, I don't know... the coil sounds OK, the LM709 should work (I think)... it could be your transmit pulse width, or the sample delay, or something in the gain stages. You would need to provide more information.

- Carl

Esteban

11-09-2005, 10:13 PM

I prefer the words directional electronic metal detector for completely electronic type machine, because the terminology LRL remember dowsing...

The photos I post are, maybe, the only proofs on the world about directional metal detector. All the photos are real, and I have many negative films of these.

Respect the PI, nncunew want a more good audio generator for his PI, maybe a VCO type.

Carl-NC

11-10-2005, 01:09 AM

Posting pics of people holding gadgets, really isn't proof of the existence of a working LRL... What I would like to see, and try, are experiments that objectively demonstrate a workable concept. As soon as I see evidence that I (or anyone else) can personally replicate, then I will temper my skepticism.

- Carl

Dmitriy

11-10-2005, 05:37 AM

Hello, Carl.
Sorry, my English isn't correct.
What do you think about MINEORO's device and Bionic 01 from OKM Gmbh?
Do you know correct research these devices?
Thanks.

Esteban

11-10-2005, 03:41 PM

Carl-NC

11-10-2005, 07:07 PM

First, I was witness from 1979 and many times through the years.

There are many photos since the 60's at today. Do you think all the persons are in implication through the years for to make all these pictures in prevention the existence of Geotech and Internet? Many years of photographic evidence only for TO LIE?

I'm not saying that anyone is lying. I'm not judging your photos in any way. I'm simply saying that I will remain skeptical of an LRL claim -- of any kind, and from any source -- until I see for myself some kind of reliable, repeatable evidence that the claim is true. In the same way that I remain skeptical of alien visits, even when someone in Roswell claims to have photos of a UFO.

It's nothing against you, or anyone in the photos... suggest some experiments that will demonstrate the viability of an LRL technique, and I will pursue it.

- Carl

Esteban

11-11-2005, 06:45 PM

They are persons with the foot on EARTH, no alliens in the AIR (in all the acceptations of the word) who visit us with his "amazing gadgets". From my short vision analisis, all the non-well instruments are gadgets.

Also, I think is unequal to compare a spot in the sky (the UFO?) with the physical "gadgets" I show here.

Do you believe that the astronauts visit the Moon? Where is the evidence? Photos? Films? Voices? Do you are present for to confirm is real? My advantage is this: I was present many times during long range detection.

Long range metal detector is not a perfect technology, such as is no perfect metal detector.

My old question: Is more easy to put a man in the Moon (384,000 km) than detect â€”not at distanceâ€” a only coin at 1 m depth?

Something fails.

THE METAL DETECTOR RADAR REDISCOVERED (AT VERY LOW COST):

In internet can to find a radar for detect metals (INFORMATIVE, read all the PDF) in:

http://www.llnl.gov/IPandC/technology/profile/sensor/MicropowerImpulseRadar/index.php

Esteban

11-11-2005, 06:59 PM

MORE INFO ABOUT THE RADAR:

LAWRENCE LIVERMORE NATIONAL LABORATORY SEEKS LICENSEES FROM INDUSTRY TO COMMERCIALIZE LLNLâ€™S MAGNETO-RADAR/FIELD DISTURBANCE SENSOR AND METHODS, FOR METAL AND NON-METAL DETECTION, DERIVED FROM MICROPOWER IMPULSE RADAR (MIR) TECHNOLOGIES AND METHODS

Announcement: Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory (LLNL), operated by the University of California under contract with the U.S. Department of Energy (DOE), is seeking one or more licensees to commercialize LLNLâ€™S current patents and a newly allowed, soon to be published patent covering the Magneto-Radar/Field Disturbance Sensor and Methods, for metal and non-metal detection, derived from Micropower Impulse Radar (MIR) Technologies and Methods technology.

â€¢ The Magneto-Radar is a completely new approach to a motion and range detection sensor for conductive materials whether metal or non metal.

â€¢ Materials may possibly be detected at greater depths and located with greater precision than present technology can achieve by detection at remote distances of very small vibrations such as from a turning fork induced in the targets. Ground balance problems are either eliminated or substantially reduced in most cases.

â€¢ Low-cost potential applications exist in treasure hunting equipment, medical, industrial, mining, security and safety screening, and analytical equipment. LLNLâ€™s licensed field disturbance technology with range gating has been the basis for other products and other applications such as range controlled radar motion sensor for security application products selling commercially for under seventy dollars ($70) in the quantity of one.

â€¢ MIR and field disturbance sensors provide range to object information while screening out clutter and discriminating from other signals due to the environment, false positives or movement signals outside its range-gated region.

â€¢ The MIR or field disturbance sensors can detect small vibrations, such as from a tuning fork, or steel guitar strings.

â€¢ Varying frequencies and inter-modulation products of induced magnetic field targets may possibly provide more information to distinguish and identify them from other materials or movements.

These technologies and methods relate to employing a portable, low-power, battery operated radar to sense and locate (range to object) even microscopic mechanically excited motion or vibration in objects such as but not limited to conductive and nonconductive bio-materials, including ferrous and non ferrous metals, wherein the mechanical vibration and resonance may be the result of mechanical, acoustic, magnetic, optical or electromagnetic excitation. In many cases, the aforementioned materials can be detected at greater depths and located with greater precision than present technology can achieve. Ground balance problems are either eliminated or substantially reduced by utilizing either the range gating and sensitive motion features of these technologies in combination or separately.

The MIR and field disturbance sensors are range-gated radars, which provide range to object information while screening out clutter, false positives or movement signals outside its range-gated region. The MIR and field disturbance sensor can be used in three capacities: (1) non-magneto, (2) magneto, or (3) contrast. When used in the non-magneto capacity, the MIR and field disturbance sensor provides a substantially improved means of detecting stationary mechanically and/or acoustically (ex. for use in detection between walls in a building) induced vibrating and resonating objects and materials. In the magneto capacity, the magnetically or electromagnetically induced vibration and resonance of an object can be detected via a characteristic double harmonic frequency. Third, the radar can also detect the target object through microscopic movement resulting from changes in the size, image or contrast of the object.

The Magneto-Radar using either LLNLâ€™s MIR or the field disturbance sensor is a completely new approach to motion and range detection sensor technology using a bipolar generator, which generates unique double harmonics detectable by MIR or the field disturbance sensor. The MIR and field disturbance sensors are a new low-cost implementation of a pulse echo radar. Conventional radar pulses travel at the speed of light and require an oscilloscope for high speed sweeps in even nanoseconds, but LLNL's MIR and field disturbance sensor uses a time expansion technology known as equivalent time allowing it to sweep a million times slower or on a millisecond scale. This range-gated radar operates as a pulse echo system that clocks the two way time of flight of a very short electrical pulse. It involves using a bipolar magnetic field to induce an eddy current in the target object generating a corresponding magnetic field (detectable phase shift relied upon by traditional metal detectors for determining various materials based on conductivity), transmitting various radar frequency signals to the conductive object, receiving reflected radar signals resulting from motion in the object, and processing the receive radar signals to produce an output signal that corresponds to a harmonic and/or an inter-modulation product of the resonating target object in the magnetic field. The MIR radar transmits short, ultra-wideband electromagnetic pulses and the receiver is designed to only receive signals from a preset range(s) R. If there are no changes within or at range R, then the integrated return signal remains constant because stationary clutter signals are integrated as part of the constant return. However, if anything penetrates the shell, it will change the reflectivity in range R, which causes a change in the detectable return signal attributed to motion. Through doing this as well, the varying frequencies of the induced magnetic field targets can be more readily distinguished and identified from other materials or movements through harmonic analysis. For example, when the magnetic excitation varies sinusoidally at a frequency F, the resulting resonance of the conductive object may occur at, but is not limited to 2F, providing a unique harmonic signature that is detected by the motion sensing MIR radar (ex. a bipolar excitation frequency of 60 Hz would result in a harmonic frequency of 120 Hz).

Since the magnetic field of a traditional metal detector must travel out to the object and then couple back to the generator, a sixth order decrease in signal strength versus range results, forming a formidable limitation in range. In fact, it is estimated that traditional metal detectors can only detect coins and jewelry at depths of only approximately 8 inches. In the case of the Magneto-Radar, however, induction of the target and magnetic field emanating from the target object can be obtained via use of the coil of a traditional metal detector or via a more powerful custom magnetic field generator. The strength of the induced magnetic field is usually directly proportional to the detection range. Significantly increased magnetic field strength can be obtained by generating short duration, high peak power, pulsed magnetic fields, even with traditional metal detector coils, without overheating the coil because of the extremely short duty cycle of the MIR or the field disturbance sensor needed to recognize movement of the target.

Additional technical information on Micropower Impulse Radar (MIR) Technologies and Methods can be obtained at:

http://www.llnl.gov/IPandC/technology/profile/sensor/MicropowerImpulseRadar

LLNL is seeking licensees with a demonstrated ability to bring such inventions to the market. Moving critical technology beyond the Laboratory to the commercial world helps our licensees gain a competitive edge in the marketplace. All licensing activities are conducted under policies relating to the strict nondisclosure of company proprietary information.

If you have further questions, contact: Bill Grant, at (925) 423-3082; or grant9@llnl.gov.

Companies interested in commercializing this technology should provide a written statement of interest that must include a description of corporate capability and experience relevant to this technology.

Written responses should be submitted by completing our online Company Contact form.

Esteban

11-11-2005, 07:04 PM

Here the radar. The cost is the very cheap (US$ 70):

Esteban

11-11-2005, 07:14 PM

Sorry. Change:

THE METAL DETECTOR RADAR REDISCOVERED (AT VERY LOW COST)

by:

THE METAL DETECTOR RADAR (AT VERY LOW COST)

Dunderhead

11-12-2005, 10:59 PM

Everybody,

I find patent of secret llnl device to share with all.

Esteban, you provide interesting data to all.

Carl, check dns address, to link maybe pdf to be provided.

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&u=/netahtml/search-adv.htm&r=1&p=1&f=G&l=50&d=ptxt&S1=((Micropower+AND+Impulse)+AND+Radar).ABST.&OS=abst/(Micropower+and+Impulse+and+Radar)&RS=ABST/((Micropower+AND+Impulse)+AND+Radar)

Esteban

11-13-2005, 12:54 AM

FreePatentsonline provides with drawings in PDF and many links with similar patents:

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6914552.html

Largesarge

11-13-2005, 02:18 AM

Rubbish, rubbish, rubbish!!

okantex

11-13-2005, 11:05 AM

Hi everbody,
Esteban
in the article they say
this circuıt makes signs with 15cm wavelenghts which means something like 1.8 Giga hertz.do you remember home-made GPR results .it is working with 250Mhz and can penetrate up to 2 meters. with 1.8Ghz you could only see underfloor like they show in their pages.it not really for treasure hunters.may be for engineers .
have a nice day
okantex

Esteban

11-13-2005, 07:40 PM

Radar mean more than works at X Ghz. Mean transmiter-reflection-receiver and process. Any system wich uses the principle works as radar in ANY FREQUENCY.

Also is for treasure hunting. I think you don't read all the documents.

Post 11/11/2005:

â€¢ Materials may possibly be detected at greater depths and located with greater precision than present technology can achieve by detection at remote distances of very small vibrations such as from a turning fork induced in the targets. Ground balance problems are either eliminated or substantially reduced in most cases.

* * * * * * * * *

These technologies and methods relate to employing a portable, low-power, battery operated radar to sense and locate (range to object) even microscopic mechanically excited motion or vibration in objects such as but not limited to conductive and nonconductive bio-materials, including ferrous and non ferrous metals, wherein the mechanical vibration and resonance may be the result of mechanical, acoustic, magnetic, optical or electromagnetic excitation. In many cases, the aforementioned materials can be detected at greater depths and located with greater precision than present technology can achieve. Ground balance problems are either eliminated or substantially reduced by utilizing either the range gating and sensitive motion features of these technologies in combination or separately.

Esteban

11-13-2005, 07:53 PM

Largesarge: We need more ideas than Rubbish, rubbish, rubbish!! Words like this no contribute. Largesarge need largeneck for to see the extended horizons.

hung

11-13-2005, 09:54 PM

Thanks for the valuable information Esteban.
I will go deeply into it as a plus to use along my Mineoro detector.
Will discuss this with you by email.
Tchau amigo!

Largesarge

11-14-2005, 04:42 AM

After twenty years in radar maintence I know that the higher the freq. the easier it is to attenuate. A search radar operating at say 80 MHZ could get it's 210 Mi. range with about 100 KW RF power but a height finder operating at 2 GHZ needed 2 MW power to get the same range. An SLBM detection radar modified from the aforementioned height finder needed both TXMR's pumping out 2 meg apiece (approx 4 meg accumulated) to reach out about a 1000 mi. and needed a cryogenically cooled front end to Rx the return signals.

It was one cool:D piece of equipment and after we worked the bugs out we had an 80% operational rate, not bad for a half analog, half digital cobbled together, stop gap system that lasted far longer than it was intended to.

The point is this unless you want to lug around lots of battery power to support a high power TX and a couple of Peltier units to cool the front end of your RX, I would suggest you stay in the low KNZ range. I would dare say it would be a whole lot cheaper too.;)

okantex

11-15-2005, 04:25 PM

I am not an electronition and english is not my native language.
so escuse me for some tecnical words.what is Mi
I have used deposit finding unit.
inside it, there were 2.7 pikofarad condensators and it's aproximately L was something like 4.8 microhenry .so it must be working something like 50Mhz
and be sure that there were no cooling equipment inside
and we found gold coin inside a little cup at 4 meters.

Largesarge

11-16-2005, 04:10 AM

Okantex, Mi = miles, typical search radar range is 210 miles.

Carl-NC

11-22-2005, 06:50 PM

I finally got a chance to sit down & read through the patent. Basically, he proposes using a low frequency (60Hz) EM signal which, through induction, creates eddy currents in metal targets; the AC eddy currents then create a mechanical vibration in the target; and a standard radar is used to detect the mechanical vibration.

This is all feasible, I suppose, though I question whether most metals would have enough mechanical displacement to be detectable by radar. Also, it would provide no means whatsoever to distinguish one type of metal from another.

Finally, this patent is a long, long way away from what Mineoro is claiming as their operational method.

- Carl

Dell Winders

02-09-2006, 10:54 PM

For what it is worth, from my own years of experience in field testing LRL, I don't necessarily agree with some of the information provided on the MINERO, website, or in the operator manual.

Nor, would I reccommend consumers paying more than $2,000 maximum, for any LRL, presently on the market. They all have inherhent limitations that need to be addressed and understood by the operator, for the effecient use of this type of product.

With that said, I did have a problem with the MINERO falsely beeping when there were no Gold targets and realized the difficulty an inexperienced operator would have knowing if the MINERO was tuned correctly, or even working properly,

After I tested for the best settings of the MINERO, in fluxuating "Strength of Field" conditions of Central Florida, USA conditions, and showed the purchaser his best method of usage of the product, the MINERO customer has since made six (6) presumed Gold locations with his MINERO.

Both, by personally re-checking his locations with the MINERO, and then comparison testing the locations with a Fitzgerald "SI-GO" LRL, my own "DDL Gold" (experimental) and OMNITRON PRO-4, and X-SCAN, models, five (5) of the MINERO targets were able to be confirmed by these other Locator's

Carl, apparently has an older version of the MINERO, and it may not be tuned correctly, or working properly, which give justification for his negativity.

The MINERO, target depth tool that came with the MINERO, was of a different design than the one that Carl, has pictured. We tested the "Depth" Probe on a deep target. The MINERO, was placed close to the Target location as in the instructions. When the Depth probe was touched to the ground on the possible 45 degree emenating "field" (Bishops Rule), the MINERO would Beep. When the Depth probe was touched to the ground elsewhere, the Minero would not beep. In this test it would beep 24 feet away from the non-electronic 'depth" probe. This test was repeated with consistent results.

I also experienced reactions detecting and tracing the "signal line" to targets, and the depth ring, using a pair of L-Rods with the MINERO power turned on. A lesser reaction occured on the "Signal line" with the Power turned off.

In my opinion, the MINERO, Does work, but not necessarily as it is advertised. Dell

hung

02-10-2006, 12:57 AM

Hi Dell,

Nice to see you around here. First of all I would like to correct the spelling. It's actually 'Mineoro'.

Glad that you have the unit working. From pictures, I see that the model you have is the GDM 428, and you are right, it takes the user a relative understanding of how it works and a little time to practice and get used to it. But once you suceed on those, you have a great instrument and tool on your hands. I have the PDC 210 and detected many targets with it. One thing that I think you may not be aware of, is that you actually can use the 'Center & Deep' acessory as a pin pointer for small objects. It's advertised as a depth verifier but it plays a great role as a pinpointer too. You only need to have another person holding it ahead of the GDM and on the beach for instance, it pins points fine small rings etc.

Altough the GDM has more sensitivity than the PDC it was surpassed by the DC 2006, a superb unit. I talked to a customer who went 3 weeks ago to Garopaba to purchase it and he tested it for two days on the beach and found gold items both days in a row.

But my friend, the new Mineoro sensation and believe me, it will blow every detector in existence right now for sure, is the soon to be released FG 78.1, it will pick up gold of every type, not only long time buried, but Mineoro's concept of ionic field detection got so advanced that this detector will pick up fresh gold as well. I talked to Damasio and he told me how people at Mineoro are all happy and excited about its develpments and the results in the test fields were astonishing. It will be the initial development of a new daring project to be released in a year or so, using the Abacus Software to compute depth and distance in a display.
I'll be getting the FG 78.1 as soon it is released. It's heart breaking to say goodbye to the PDC210, but technology has to move on...

Esteban

02-10-2006, 04:43 PM

Hope will be better this FG 78.1. By my own experiences, telescopic antenna is better for to pick up the microvolts of small items.

michael

02-11-2006, 07:08 PM

michael

02-11-2006, 07:09 PM

hung

02-11-2006, 07:40 PM

Hi everybody.I am beginner in this forum. I hope these articles about mineoro be right. I hope more success for everybody searchs for gold or treasures.actually, when I hear or read about one man success become so glad.
Detection improvement technique is better for us (at least gold questers). But one question has been concerning for me;
when a new model is released , claim it's best without before limitations
and this repeats for next new model.So,can we conclude the latest model has some limitations like as befores? why they are continuously produce new models? Is there a main changing in their ability?
What's the totally score you give to their products?(100, 90, 80, 50,...)
Regards, Michael.

Hi Michael,

Technology as I understand and every device, be a detector, electronic equipment, etc. naturally have their limitations. When a new upgrade technology is aplied to a certain device, this particular device tends to work better and improved. That does not necessarily mean tough that the previous model was faulty. The upgrades reveal better technology and development of better aproaches.
In Mineoro's case, the 2003 model PDC210 which I happen to own, works and is a very good detector but 3 years later with the knowledge aquired regarding ionic fields, one can expect for sure a better model.
The seinsitiviness wil be improved as the power of detection. All Mineoro models before this one, only detected long time buried targets due to the longer buried object,the greater ionic field. Now the FG will be a benchmark as it detects fresh gold. This is a remarkable capability don't you think?

Regards.

michael

02-12-2006, 07:44 AM

Hi. thank you. your comments are obvious and true but this claim (ability to fresh gold detecting) was for previous models too (at least for GDP 538) as you remember they at first delivered a 24 alloy gold sheet among with unit for test and it's detection demonstration. So it is not a new aspect in FG 78.1.
of course the field experiences are is another thing, for this reason me and certainly others are waiting for these reports of good and personable men like as ETEBAN or DELL, because nobody can trust only in producers advertisement. Just honest users are reliable. If you have appropriate notes about your mineoros advantages and disadvantages, your personal founds details, please share us and don't deprive us at least by e-mail ( I am very willing to get e-mails from you. it's a high favor)
Regards, Michael.

hung

02-12-2006, 01:52 PM

this claim (ability to fresh gold detecting) was for previous models too (at least for GDP 538) as you remember they at first delivered a 24 alloy gold sheet among with unit for test and it's detection demonstration. So it is not a new aspect in FG 78.1.

As far as I know this only refered to models DIAS and IGD which included samples. The gold sheet you refer was never included with the GDP or previous models, but it might be in the case of the FG 78.1

certainly others are waiting for these reports of good and personable men like as ETEBAN or DELL, because nobody can trust only in producers advertisement. Just honest users are reliable. If you have appropriate notes about your mineoros advantages and disadvantages, your personal founds details, please share us and don't deprive us at least by e-mail ( I am very willing to get e-mails from you. it's a high favor)

I assume Esteban or Dell have never visited the factory and stayed for several days performing tests as I did. I agree that the great majority of manufacturers use a lot of advertising propaganda as a 'bait' for customers, but I've found nothing regarding the PDC so far that was in opposition to Mineoro's claims, provided the user knows about and gets used to the ionic field phenomena and the best times to do a research.
Anyway, as soon as I get the FG and use it in the field, I'll post my honest impressions even if the device happen to be what it's not expected.
Regards.

Esteban

02-12-2006, 05:56 PM

Along the time I wrote searching tips and impressions about the models. The old microcontroller-automatic doesn't work respect my previsions (Carl had one). I go in trip 4 days (year 2001) and nothing with this old microcontroller-automatic PDC 205 type. Yes with the new PDC 205 two adjustable controls and the PDC 210, also 2 adjustable controls. With the both you have posibilities to find treasure, mainly in salty terrain. I found several items with the both. I have the 428 and yet is under test in inlands. 428 and 538 are models out of line. Waiting for try the new FG 78.1. No need to go in factory, I know personally the both inventors, one of them since 1979.

michael

02-12-2006, 09:27 PM

Hi dear Esteban. I am so thankful for your sent info.
I appreciate your attendance to others like me.
I am willingly and impatiently waiting for your new experiences.
and you Mr. Hugh! Thank you, but it should be mentioned; Esteban has used some models and has good experiences. he gave me some appropriate notes and helps honestly. visiting from factory is not important. only the users experiences in field can be reliable; Dell, Esteban, You or anybody else.
Anyway sharing us in your experiences with old or new models will be appreciated. e.g. what was your deepest excavated object by them and the depth?
(if you don't want put in here please e-mail for me).Regards, Michael.

Largesarge

02-13-2006, 05:38 AM

The picture in Esteban's post #50 is as the manufacturer calls it an electronic dipstick for use in sensing fliud levels, it is not a radar.

As far as the Mineoro and ionic detection is concerned, I posed that question to Dr. David Stern, Physicist Emeritus of the Lab for Particles and fields, Goddard Space Flight Center. Below is his opinion on the matter.

Dear Dennis

I would be very suspicious. First of all, I don't think gold
and silver evaporate through the ground to where they would be in
the atmosphere, where they might, possibly, form ions. But even
if they did, how would one tell those ions apart from other ions
present in the atmosphere, due to cosmic rays and radioactivity?
(There aren't many--otherwise the air would not be such a good
insulator--but a few exist.)

The usual instrument for identifying ions is called mass
spectrometer, and is usually big and complicated. As far as I
know, the ions must be in a vacuum, where they are accelerated by
some voltage drop and identified either by their velocity, using
grids to detect their passage electrically (heavy ions gain less
speed), or else, by their deflection between the poles of a
magnet. It's a complex and expensive instrument.

So no, I would be dubious.

David P. Stern
Greenbelt, Maryland

As stated this is his opinion, but given his qualifications this dotty old retired NCO is inclined to agree.

hung

02-13-2006, 11:31 AM

As stated this is his opinion, but given his qualifications this dotty old retired NCO is inclined to agree.

His explanation of ions and ion identification is correct.
This however only involves one known of many ways to aproach the subject.
If Mineoro (Damasio) released his aproach which happens to be ONE that makes the devices work, it would be known and everybody would build his/her own ionic gold detector.
I said earlier that even if one tried to open them to check how it works, he would never figure it out. People at Mineoro would have to be a bunch of idiots if they sold detectors that the user would open and be capable of clone it, don't you think?
That's why Damasio just laughed when he became aware of the fact that a PDC was shown open in this forum.

Think of it as a cake. All the shelf indredients are known, but it requires the RECIPE to make it right. There are a lot of cakes around, but that particular one...
OK you don't have the recipe, you could take it to an analysis and find it's got flour, butter, etc. So what?

Carl-NC

02-13-2006, 02:35 PM

First of all, I don't think gold and silver evaporate through the ground to where they would be in the atmosphere, where they might, possibly, form ions.

This is especially true of gold, which is chemically inert. If gold & silver do shed ions, then this should be VERY easy to prove scientifically. Can someone -- *anyone* -- provide either research that shows this to be true, or a reproducible experiment that demonstrates this claim?

But even if they did, how would one tell those ions apart from other ions present in the atmosphere, due to cosmic rays and radioactivity?

True again. Ions are atoms, not radiation. They are physical particles, and therefore would have to float around in the air, at the complete mercy of the wind. Assuming that they don't recombine with opposite charges, there is NO WAY to tell where the ion came from. Furthermore, it is not too difficult to detect ions simply by their charge, as some smoke detectors do. But it is VERY difficult to identify the actual atom.

The usual instrument for identifying ions is called mass spectrometer, and is usually big and complicated. As far as I know, the ions must be in a vacuum, where they are accelerated by some voltage drop and identified either by their velocity, using grids to detect their passage electrically (heavy ions gain less speed), or else, by their deflection between the poles of a magnet. It's a complex and expensive instrument.

Yup. Identifying the atom requires a drift tube, were the drift velocity is measured. This is pretty hefty equipment.

Dr. Sterns confirms what I have said several times. Gold does not give off ions. Ions will drift around and mix with other ions. Identifying ions ain't easy. Identifying direction at a distance is impossible.

So far, most of the criticisms directed at my findings on Mineoro are

Carl had an older Mineoro with one knob, and it did not work as well as the newer 2-knob Mineoros.
Mineoro uses a new ion detection method that no one on Earth but 2 guys in Brazil understands.
No one can open up a Mineoro and tell how it works, or duplicate it.
My response to the first criticism is that the PDC205 I had was advertised by Mineoro as a long-range gold ion detector, the same as their newer models. It would NOT detect gold (which no one seems to doubt!) and did NOT have any facility to detect ions. If this model was a scam, then I have no reason to believe that subsequent models are any different.

I seriously doubt that Mineoro has come up with a new ion detection method. Just the fundamentals of ion behaviour make their claims ludicrous. But I am open-minded, and I have asked several times... describe a simple, reproducible experiment that either shows gold produces ions, or that ions can be detected at a distance. So far, this request has proven to be impossible.

Finally, it is silly to say that a device like the Mineoro cannot be reverse-engineered. It can, quite easily. Please don't tell me that a microcontroller's code can be protected from reading... I know better. While my reverse-engineering of the PDC205 did not find anything that related to ion detection, I did find a regenerative receiver that can be triggered by a remote-control signal which, obiously, could be used to make the device beep and deceive someone into believing it was detecting gold.

Now, all that said, I will attempt to get ahold of a newer Mineoro, run some tests, and reverse-engineer it. Can someone tell me which model(s) will REALLY detect gold? Since the FG78.1 supposedly detects "fresh gold" (whatever that is), perhaps this is the model I should get... anyone know how much it costs? I notice the Mineoro web site omits pricing.

- Carl

Esteban

02-13-2006, 04:54 PM

No necessary to be complicate! The first ciclotron was build with cans and other "trash".

http://www.techlib.com/science/ion.html

goldfinder

02-13-2006, 05:32 PM

A simple FET circuit can detect ions at a distance. The basic problem is that the world has ions and ion concentrations everywhere. The ion detector that I built can even detect direction by using a simple pole antenna. And mentioned many times on this thread - gold does not ionize itself. Gold is one of the most stable elements (at least the non-radioactive variety usually found in nature). However, I do concede that gold might be stimulated by some radiation externally and radiate electrons or some other sub-atomic particle. I will have to run some more tests with my jimdandy ion detector to see if that are any stray electrons zipping out from a gold piece. Last time I checked though, there weren't any.

This is a most interesting thread. If guys w/ these Mineoro detectors are finding gold, we have to get one of these detectors an reverse engineer it, cake or no cake!!!

Goldfinder

Carl-NC

02-13-2006, 10:20 PM

No necessary to be complicate! The first ciclotron was build with cans and other "trash".

http://www.techlib.com/science/ion.html

Interesting... the article describes an ion detection chamber, that detects ions that are generated inside the chamber. But it does not detect ions that are outside the chamber, it does not detect ions at a distance, it does not identify the atoms that are ionized, and it does not demonstrate that gold just sitting around generates ions. So it completely fails to answer my request... describe a simple, reproducible experiment that either shows gold produces ions, or that ions can be detected at a distance.

Notice also the comment on recombination... the author states that if the voltage is not high enough, recombination will eliminate the ions before they can reach the electrodes. And this is within the space a few centimeters. Consider the voltage that would be needed to pull in ions from 50 meters away, with minimal recombination!

- Carl

Carl-NC

02-13-2006, 10:34 PM

A simple FET circuit can detect ions at a distance.

A simple FET ion detector requires that the ion physically contact the FET gate (as in the article referenced by Esteban). I've not seen a FET-based ion detector that can detect distant ions.

- Carl

hung

02-13-2006, 11:17 PM

describe a simple, reproducible experiment that either shows gold produces ions, or that ions can be detected at a distance.
l

This is the 'recipe of the cake'...
Also there are two mistakes in your sentence. You're not going anywhere with it..

Esteban

02-14-2006, 12:53 AM

No only gold (buried for many years) produces electrical changes in the vecinity of an electrode (Mineoro's electrode, in this case). Here occurs a disbalance of charges.

Also, the ELECTRICAL variation in a site with buried metal is detectable by a simple FM radio.
You can detect via this methods:

1. radio

2. coil (oscillator)

3. infrared

4. magnetic absorption

5. microvoltmeter

5. association between 2 or 3 the above

Continuous detection (reproducible in the air) maybe is not possible yet, because the involved phenomenon depends of the electrical field produced by the long time buried metals.

Carl-NC

02-14-2006, 02:04 AM

You're not going anywhere with it..

Yes, I already knew that, as there is no where to go with it.

Carl-NC

02-14-2006, 02:12 AM

No only gold (buried for many years) produces electrical changes in the vecinity of an electrode (Mineoro's electrode, in this case). Here occurs a disbalance of charges.

Gold buried for 100 years is no different than gold buried for 100 seconds.

Also, the ELECTRICAL variation in a site with buried metal is detectable by a simple FM radio. You can detect via this methods:...

Yes, I am well aware that buried metals can be located by induction, infrared, magnetic distortion, and galvanic effects. None of these have anything to do with Mineoro's claims, so I'm not sure why you bring them up. Let's stick to the central claim: ion detection. I'd still like to see an experiment that buried gold produces ions.

Continuous detection (reproducible in the air) maybe is not possible yet, because the involved phenomenon depends of the electrical field produced by the long time buried metals.

Gold buried for 100 years is no different than gold buried for 100 seconds.

- Carl

goldfinder

02-14-2006, 02:36 AM

Carl,
I am not sure if this answers some your requirements but the FET electrostatic field detector that I have built will detect electrostatic fields at a distance with no ions getting to the circuit. Tests with the circuit in a closed box would detect me running an acrylic rod over a wool sweater at 10 feet from the circuit.

The FET, as I am sure you know, is a voltage controlled transistor. So ions need no contact with the gate, just an electrostatic field generated by ions.

But as you say, one needs to show that gold has an ionic field around it.

Goldfinder

Carl-NC

02-14-2006, 03:14 AM

Detecting an electrostatic field is not the same as detecting individual ions. Lots of things have electric fields, and I agree, strong electric fields can be detected at a distance... I also have a device that will do that. The acrylic rod & wool sweater generate lots and lots of charge, but the charge accumulates on the surfaces, not as free ions.

In small numbers the electric field of ions are way too weak to detect unless they physically contact a collector plate. That's why smoke detectors cannot detect smoke at a distance.

- Carl

Esteban

02-14-2006, 07:20 PM

Carl, maybe you forgot, but many times I wrote respect the electric field associated, I don't know is the ionic is part of this electric field... Also don't know is Mineoro can or can't detect the ionic, but can detect the electrical phenomenon produces for conductive metal buried for long time. So is different conductive metal buried for long time than metal "at sight", so the coil of the "normal" metal detector can't measure it: this is the only experimentation you want to do. Comprobation requires go out the labo, walk in inland with sensitive microvoltmeter â€”or like thisâ€” and ask: why the device insist in this point and no in other? Do scientifics experiment in this way? No!!! Because can't reproduce it!!!

If no exist an electric field associated, why I can't "enter" in a site where found two antique-big Jesuitic bronze candelabrum? Not with Mineoro, yes with experimental absorption magnetic device. Was difficult to center the exact point, but unearthed, ends the "perturbation".

hung

02-15-2006, 07:53 PM

Hey Esteban, how are you buddy?
You're right on your explanation.
But anyway, what I bring is excellent news.
I just talked to Damasio not long ago and in fact I'll travel to Garopaba to get the new FG 78.1 and to spend two days there.
Fact is that in tests the FG78.1 got the astonishing mark of detecting 1 mm square of gold at 1 meter! It's astounding. Damasio told me that the new model is not prone to weather electrical discharges, in fact they even can help detetion if not sequential.. Also now the user can research at night with no apparent problems.
He and his team are so happy and confident about it that advertising in radios, newspapers and TV around here will start. I'm really proud of them and willing to hand this new detector and take part of this new era in detection.
In fact Mineoro's technology hit a point never imagined before. This is the culmination of all knowledge Damasio and Alonso gathered for almost fifty years.
And although it seems an exaggeration, the scientific comunity is not aware of what they discovered.
Although there are threats of reverse engineering these devices, whoever tries will only waste his time and money (a lot of money by the way to get one). It's not possible to do it. They were made like so. Besides Brazil and USA have a strong oficial anti patent breaking agreement and whoever tries to do it would be comitting crime and infringing the law with serious consequences.
As I said earlier only a fool would think the inventors were not aware of this possibility and keep producing detectors which would be cloned...

Well, that said, as soon as I get the new model I'll be out for a couple of weeks starting a recovery operation of a wreck the PDC detected at sea.
Regards.

Esteban

02-15-2006, 10:43 PM

Ok, Hung

I'm optimist in this antenna model. My wish is to try the next days or months, deppending the disponibility of this machine in my hands.

Esetban

Qiaozhi

02-16-2006, 12:05 AM

Jim

02-16-2006, 01:20 AM

.. Also now the user can research at night with no apparent problems.

I find this interesting that the previous models apparently would not work in the dark. Evidently, ions are not nocturnal.

Thank you for keeping us informed, Jim

ivconic

02-16-2006, 08:15 AM

:rolleyes:
"Gold buried for 100 years is no different than gold buried for 100
seconds."
- Well , yes it is! Second one You wont forget where You put it.

"I'd still like to see an experiment that buried gold produces ions."
-I would not.Not interested.I'd like to see only a gold!

Ha,ha,ha!
People,Your controversy and reviews are never ending story.
If somebody want to beleive in a such a fraud as mineoro, fine by me.
I do only beleive in exact things.
A question for those Mineoro lovers:
Friends,are you a rich people?Having such excell product as
Mineoro would easily provide you a lot of finds in the field,
so I guess that you are very rich and happy people, with full
pockets of gold?
No hard feelings.Best regards and lot of finds!

P.S.
Many thanks to One is still fighting against frauds and save peoples money!

Esteban

02-16-2006, 04:02 PM

Hi All

Rich people no need gold detector. Do you ear that â€”for exampleâ€” Mr. Bill Gates had for hobby or passion metal detection? THIS IS ONE EXTREME: RICH.

Do you ear that the "beachcombers" are very richs finding few rings, chains, coins, etc.? THIS IS THE OTHER EXTREME: "POOR".

Philosophical question: What I understand about what is rich and what is poor?

* * * I'm searching along the years for treasures to really make rich of me (for to have more time for to dedicate in this passion) * * *

I know that metal detectors don't make the gold, found it, with luck, in the correct place, in the day, with all the best conditions, etc.

Is more pleasant found a copper coin at 5 or 7 meters from your electronic LRL gadget that ALL THE GOLD OF THE WORLD... THIS IS THE GOLD!

goldfinder

02-16-2006, 05:14 PM

I see the new MINEORO has a little antenna sticking up on it. Is this for the detection of IONS???

There has also been a claim that there is a special detector of ions or something else sealed in the unit for special detection.

As Carl keep saying, sealed units can't detect free ions. The only exception to this is high energy particles that will ionize gases in the sealed chamber like a geiger counter, and these are not "free ions", and Mineoro does not make any claims to detection of ionizing radiation.

My FET electrostatic meter has antenna also to enhance detection. I'll gladly sell ion field detectors for a lot less than the MINEORO... Just send me and ounce of gold (preferrably Canadian Maple Leaf or USA Double Eagle, I'd even take Krugerands). I'd bury a couple of gold coins in my backyard and water every day and see if I get any ions that I can detect. Meanwhile youall can field test my ion field detector.

It looked like one of the original Mineoro's had a aperature into the unit that possibly had an air pump sucking in air. Quite possibly it has an ion detection chamber inside the unit. Anyone know if this is the case???

Best 2 U who have bought the Mineoro. It certainly looks like a simple system that is horribly over priced.

Goldfinder

ivconic

02-16-2006, 11:40 PM

;)
To Esteban....

"Rich people no need gold detector. Do you ear that â€”for exampleâ€” Mr. Bill
Gates had for hobby or passion metal detection? THIS IS ONE EXTREME: RICH."

Maybe so.I bet that he never used Mineoro, but some nice IB or PI.

"Do you ear that the "beachcombers" are very richs finding few rings, chains,
coins, etc.? THIS IS THE OTHER EXTREME: "POOR"."

They almost always use PI or IB, in some very poor cases BFO!

"Philosophical question: What I understand about what is rich and what is poor?"

Bill Gates is rich. "Beachcombers" are poor! No philosophy at all!

"I'm searching along the years for treasures to really make rich of me (for to
have more time for to dedicate in this passion) "

I can agree with that. But in the name of those years, try sometimes some
real detector....for example Minelab Relic Hawk or GP 3000 Extreme or Fisher1266
or White's Eagle II or any simmilar and you gonna realize,that you wasted all
those years, dandling with LRL!

"I know that metal detectors don't make the gold, found it, with luck, in the correct
place, in the day, with all the best conditions, etc."

If that so, than you don't need it at all! Esspecially not expensive one!
If you have all elements you mentioned than any detector will work, even Mineoro,
but giving $8000 for non-working toy, only rich man can afford that!

"Is more pleasant found a copper coin at 5 or 7 meters from your electronic LRL gadget
that ALL THE GOLD OF THE WORLD... THIS IS THE GOLD!"

I beleive you that 100%.It is impossible(with LRL's), and when you do it, same
thing as flush royal on high stakes poker in Las Vegas or free key from Fort Knox!
..................

Esteban, my friend....O.K....let's talk no more about it.Everybody has a right
on his own choice and opinion. This is forum, You said yours...I said mine(lab)...
it is O.K.....cool! Regards!

To goldfinger...

Ions are defined as electrically charged atoms. Positively charged ions have a
deficiency of electrons, and negatively charged ions have a surplus of electrons.
An ion can also be classified as an atom or molecule with an electrostatic charge.
Another classification of an ion is a charged particle that is formed when one or
more electrons are taken from or added to a previously neutral atom or molecule.
The Ion Detector can be used to detect the presence, and indicate the relative
amount, of free ions in the air.The Ion Detector, has to be designed to indicate
ion emissions from ion generators high-voltage leakage points, static-electricity
sources,electric-field gradients, and in other situations where the presence
of their relative flux density is required.Telescoping antenna is used as the
pickup.In the presence of an ion field, ions accumulate on the antenna, causing
a minute negative current to flow to the input of front end of some high impendance
amplifier.(i have just invented a hot water!)
From the other hand, an ion generator or ioniser is a device which creates ions and
puts them in to the air. A high negative voltage of around 5000v will make negative
ions and vice versa, high positive voltage will make positive ions.You have to run
that kind of device for several minutes in a very closed space to achieve required
flux density, which provide at least any detection!!!!!(Does bell ringing?)
To study more about method of generating ions look on the .net for Cockroft-Welton
principles.
So if we respect what is claimed here, how the hell anybody can expect to "feel"
ions in the field on long distance, aka long range....longer than a few inches!?
Carl presumed that maybe there are no ions outdor in the field. I can partially
agree. There are ions ouside but in very small concentration, so there are no such
device with witch you can detect them far then a few inches from source(generator)!
So we discover now that funny telescopic antenna is trully used, but in very close,
narrow meaning.Do you really beleive that buried gold,coin or any relics are able
to produce ions in wanted density and remain stabile, waiting you to detect them?
I think that some people confused some very known principles with a pure imagination
and decide to make LRL device which really works! I would call them a naive constructors.
They really beleive in what are they doing.The problem is that those devices are
not working at all, outside of labs!If anybody interested, may check on Nikola Tesla
stuff on the .net, it is related in some elements.

I am not pure theoretical. I've done a lot of experiments long time ago, and realized
that it was a waste of time.
Here is a little toy for you.....(baby mineoro)

ivconic

02-17-2006, 10:00 AM

hung

02-17-2006, 11:21 AM

;)

I can agree with that. But in the name of those years, try sometimes some
real detector....for example Minelab Relic Hawk or GP 3000 Extreme or Fisher1266
or White's Eagle II or any simmilar and you gonna realize,that you wasted all
those years, dandling with LRL!

I have a Minelab Excalibur which I use on the beach to confirm sites detected by the PDC and for diving use at sea to pick up goods again detected by the 'Mineoros' as you say... Only thing is that I would take months to scan a site when with the Mineoro I do in a matter of hours if not minutes..

but giving $8000 for non-working toy, only rich man can afford that!
There are more reasons to charge this amount than just common comercial ones.. And most important: It works, period.
Ions are defined as electrically charged atoms. Positively charged ions have a
deficiency of electrons, and negatively charged ions have a surplus of electrons.
An ion can also be classified as an atom or molecule with an electrostatic charge.
Another classification of an ion is a charged particle that is formed when one or
They really beleive in what are they doing.The problem is that those devices are
not working at all, outside of labs!If anybody interested, may check on Nikola Tesla
stuff on the .net, it is related in some elements. [/QUOTE]
A molecule is the smallest part of a compound that still retains the characteristic of that compound. It cannot be divided without having another classification..So ions are actually atoms which are modified. So when the negative charged ion encounters its positive counterpart, they crash. As in the words of Damasio, 'they love each other so much as Romeo and Juliet'...

What Damasio and Alonso discovered are beyond common knowledge and will never be discussed.
Is it a complete and finished matter tough? Of course not! Their concept is evolving as any other technology to be more effective each time.

Tesla was a genius ahead of his time and his many conceptions like the earth acting as a capacitor and inventions like wireless electrical transmission and many others were superb and were abandoned only because of small capitalist interests... Yet he was charged as a 'crackpot'..

It's so funny now seeing skeptics citing Tesla.. Oh well...
I am not pure theoretical. I've done a lot of experiments long time ago, and realized
that it was a waste of time.
Maybe it was for you, but not for Mineoro. Upon 50 years of gathering knowledge they are up to something.

As I said before, I won't try to convince anyone if Mineoro detectors work or not.
What for? One believes what they want. This is gonna be an endless discussion and frankly I don't want to take part on that...
The only person I had sucess convincing was myself and that's what's important..

My personal opinion of the skeptics is that they did not suceed in building a working LRL and for that reason they keep bashing LRL builders who are sucessful. But the true hidden reason is to try to reverse engineering them..he,he. 'Why he did and I couldn't?' sort of things...
It's like the dowsing subject. They can't dowse and then what's left? Let's bash who can.
There might be other working LRLs around .. But I know Mineoro is one of then for sure.

Regards.

Qiaozhi

02-17-2006, 05:51 PM

This whole subject is an excellent example of a phenomenon known as pathological science. Believers offer fantastic theories that are contrary to experience, and meet any criticism with ad hoc excuses. Such theories can easily be spotted as pathological, when only the believers can reproduce the results, and critics continually fail to duplicate the experiment.

This does not mean that anybody is being purposely dishonest, but simply that people are tricked into believing false results by a lack of understanding. There are many published cases over the years that have attracted a great deal of attention, and sometimes many hundreds of papers have been published supporting the results. Some even lasted as long as 20 years before it was accepted that the results were caused by subjective effects, wishful thinking, or threshold interactions.

Self-deception is a process by which we deceive ourselves into accepting something as true, when in fact it is based on a false idea. This is why scientists insist on clearly defined and controlled double-blind, randomized and repeatable tests. This is the only way to negate the wonderful ability of human beings to deceive themselves into believing things that are not true.

"Our capacity for self-deception has no known limits." - Michael Novak

Esteban

02-17-2006, 10:42 PM

Contrary to experience? Wich is your experience? The only you know! Many of us to lack your wisdom, please give us a little! Also, this is contrary to experience, but occurs!:

Qiaozhi

02-17-2006, 11:35 PM

Contrary to experience? Wich is your experience? The only you know! Many of us to lack your wisdom, please give us a little! Also, this is contrary to experience, but occurs!:

Your reply unfortunately demonstrates the impossibility of this whole discussion. i.e. The validity or otherwise of the LRL phenomenon is based on people's subjective experiences and not on an objective set of tests. We could argue (sorry - discuss) this all day without reaching an agreement. Both Randi and Carl have money on the table for anyone who can prove that an LRL really works, but consistently nobody takes up the challenge. Why? I believe I know the answer to this question, but perhaps you know of another?

By the way, I hope that wasn't your donkey?? http://thunting.com/geotech/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif

Esteban

02-18-2006, 12:07 AM

I assume my "donkeyism", ergo, I can learn! Also, I think you can't discuss seriouslly, since you consider all people don't think like you as sick persons.

ivconic

02-18-2006, 12:48 AM

:( "Tesla was a genius ahead of his time and his many conceptions like the
earth acting as a capacitor and inventions like wireless electrical
transmission and many others were superb and were abandoned only because
of small capitalist interests... Yet he was charged as a 'crackpot'.."

Abandoned ...!? Never! Only you do not know about it.
Not only you are trying to teach me(us) about your funny ideas(lrl,dowsing...etc)but
now you would like to teach me about Nikola Tesla !!! Tesla was Serbian,born in
Croatia, lived in USA.About his work...it would take a pages and pages for me to
write to you about it, that's why I said that any concerned may find all on the
.net . Since I am Serbian and We here growing a tradition to rescpect and learn
about our great compatriots through history,it was one of earliest educatioanl
obligation for me to learn and know everything about Him,His life and His work!!!
You may say, that I had to graduate on that matters. So please do not talk about
Nikola Tesla to me.
This 2006.year is a year of Nikola Tesla, worldwide, that's way I mentioned
Him in last post. It would do a good for you and the other dowsers(with mineoro
or without) to study a little more about His work and than to understand some
basic principles in ions,emf...etc.

"It's so funny now seeing skeptics citing Tesla.. Oh well..."

You really don't know nothing about Him !!???
Tesla,himself, was a great skeptic about everything!
No skeptics - no knowledge! Beleivers better go to temple and chant.

"Maybe it was for you, but not for Mineoro. Upon 50 years of gathering
knowledge they are up to something"

Upon 50 wasted years(sorry, but it has to be wasted if those latest products
are the top of their success) they trying to compensate lost time to get
rich by selling nonsence devices to naive and beleivers by hot prices!
No, really....collect all materiall to build mineoro, it will cost you a
$30-$40...not a $8000 !!!!!!If you do not know how, than I'll build it for
you for some $100 extra.

"My personal opinion of the skeptics is that they did not suceed in building
a working LRL and for that reason they keep bashing LRL builders who are
sucessful. But the true hidden reason is to try to reverse engineering them..
he,he. 'Why he did and I couldn't?' sort of things...
It's like the dowsing subject. They can't dowse and then what's left? Let's
bash who can.
There might be other working LRLs around .. But I know Mineoro is one of then
for sure."

Maybe is that case with somebody else.But sorry, not with me.As i said, a long
time ago i was interested in many things (maybe you was not born yet).
Tried almost everything. I do have a some expirience which is enough to
distinguish between right and wrong way to go further.
Bashing !? Well, if that so...I am very sorry..and I am not gonna
bash you any more. Since this is forum, I tried to say my real opinion. Maybe
I chosed a "sharp" way to do it. But that's Me! Sometimes people get resentfull
by somebody's attitude. If that so, than I am sorry. Any way I was thinking
not to waste my time here any more. There are a very nice threads here to
visit and learn more about real stuff.But a label "Remote sensing" attract me
in good hope that I am gonna read something about serious and real remote
detecting,sensing or what ever you like.Since it is not the case,I guess this
is my last visit here.
Regards to all....
Special regards to my brother in arms Quiaozhi.
You put it right. I could'nt done better!!!
Quiaozhi meet me on the other threads, we can exchange knowledge and schematics.

J_Player

02-18-2006, 01:13 AM

After reading this thread it appears to me that this topic is going nowhere. There is a group who says long range locaters are total bunk, and another group who says they work by sensing ions or electrostatic fields of a target that is located a long distance. Here are my thoughts:

1. If the LRLs work, then why aren't their owners rich from all the treasure they found? Why aren't the manufacturers rich from all the treasure they found?

2. Why has not a single manufacturer of a LRL come to claim the $25,000 prize? Why has not a single owner of a LRL come to claim the $25,000 prize?

4. I cannot imagine any known principle that allows an electronic device to locate a buried target at a long distance by sensing ions or the electrostatic field of a buried object. But there may be such a principle which is little known and does work, as has been demonstrated by past inventors who developed new technologies. For example, Nicola Tesla developed quite a few new technologies, including AC electricity and its generators and transmission systems. After awhile, all his detractors including Edison gave up on their cherished beliefs in DC electricity to power the world simply because his improved method worked better. After Tesla left his partnership with Westinghouse, he started his own venture to transmit electricity without wires, using his high voltage and high power Tesla coils. He demonstrated how wireless power transmission works by lighting up fluorescent light bulbs 20 miles away without any wire linked from his transmitter to the light bulbs. He turned on the remote lights on demand, and turned them off on demand.

5. The proponents of LRLs talk a lot about ion and electrostatic field detection theories as an explanation of how their LRLs work. They also claim to have developed a little-known technology which most of the scientific community is unaware. However, I have never seen any demonstration that they can cause this technology to work for finding a buried target. I would like to see anyone use a LRL to detect a buried target that they did not bury, and thus end all the controversy about whether the theories are correct. Here is an easy way to compare the performance of a LRL to any conventional metal detector:

1. Go to a remote area that has very little traffic, like a dry lake bed, or a remote desert area and mark out a strip of land 4-feet wide by 500 feet long. Use whatever means you have at hand to insure there is nothing buried in a detectable range inside this strip.

2. Bury a target 6 inches deep somewhere inside the area. Take measurements so you know where the target is buried.

3. Then rake over the top surface so there is no evidence where the target is buried. Let the area weather for awhile if necessary to remove any evidence of where the target is buried.

Let the people who want to demonstrate their locators find the target within the area. This method can be repeated at several dissimilar sites in order to rule out any interference from underground geological anomalies or mineralization.

If the LRL works as the proponents say, the LRL should be able to easily find the target much faster than a conventional detector, because of it's directional abilities which will simply point out the way. The conventional detectors will have to scan every foot of the strip until they finally come to where the target is buried.

Can anyone with a LRL show a demonstration like this?
Can anyone with a conventional metal detecdtor show me a demonstration like this?

Carl-NC

02-18-2006, 03:57 AM

First, thank you all for keeping this discussion civil. Second, anyone know what the Mineoro models cost? How much did a PDC210 cost? How much are the new models?

I have a Minelab Excalibur which I use on the beach to confirm sites detected by the PDC and for diving use at sea to pick up goods again detected by the 'Mineoros' as you say...

Are we now claiming that gold ions are emitted by undersea treasure, they float to the surface, and are detectable by a Mineoro?

- Carl

goldfinder

02-18-2006, 04:27 AM

Hey IVCONIC,
Those ion schematics are the ones I tested many years ago. Now you go and publish and I can't get anyone to send me 1 OZ gold coins to make an them an ion detector since they can do it for $20 worth of parts. DARN!

Oh well, now I just have to go back to selling that land in Florida some more (hahahaha).

Seriously though, I would like to know if anyone has ever proven whether there is any kind of field around gold buried over a long period of time??? I can't afford to bury any gold coins in my backyard for 20 years to find out.

Goldfinder (not Goldfinger - he was 007s nemisis on one of the early 007 movies).

Qiaozhi

02-18-2006, 09:11 AM

I assume my "donkeyism", ergo, I can learn! Also, I think you can't discuss seriouslly, since you consider all people don't think like you as sick persons.

Hi Estaban,

I think you may not have understood.http://thunting.com/geotech/forums/images/smilies/redface.gif I was not saying that you are a donkey. I was asking if the donkey in the picture belongs to you? You do not have to assume any "donkeyism". http://thunting.com/geotech/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

Keep up the polite discussion.

Qiaozhi

02-18-2006, 11:14 AM

Maybe is that case with somebody else.But sorry, not with me.As i said, a long time ago i was interested in many things (maybe you was not born yet).
Tried almost everything. I do have a some expirience which is enough to
distinguish between right and wrong way to go further.
Bashing !? Well, if that so...I am very sorry..and I am not gonna
bash you any more. Since this is forum, I tried to say my real opinion. Maybe
I chosed a "sharp" way to do it. But that's Me! Sometimes people get resentfull
by somebody's attitude. If that so, than I am sorry. Any way I was thinking
not to waste my time here any more. There are a very nice threads here to
visit and learn more about real stuff.But a label "Remote sensing" attract me
in good hope that I am gonna read something about serious and real remote
detecting,sensing or what ever you like.Since it is not the case,I guess this
is my last visit here.
Regards to all....
Special regards to my brother in arms Quiaozhi.
You put it right. I could'nt done better!!!
Quiaozhi meet me on the other threads, we can exchange knowledge and schematics.

Hi Ivconic,

Don't give up yet.

The problem with this thread is that we have reached a stalemate situation.
This "yes it can", "no it can't", "yes it can", "no it can't" type of discussion is getting nowhere very fast. The critics are being accused of having closed minds, but sometimes an open mind can be so open that you fall inside and cannot see the real world anymore.http://thunting.com/geotech/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif

It is difficult to always be objective, and this is the reason for double-blind, randomized and repeatable tests. We may not like to admit it, but human beings are very good at finding new ways of self-deception.
I'm afraid that the onus is on the believers to prove their case, and to demonstrate a foolproof method of long-range location. Wouldn't it be wonderful if a small handheld device could really detect the presence of gold or precious metals from extreme distances? Unfortunately the basic laws of physics (according to our current understanding) do not have a mechanism whereby this can be achieved. We are waiting to be proved wrong, and my hat is standing by to be eaten.http://thunting.com/geotech/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif

Finally, there is no point is displaying pictures of the many treasures that have been found with LRLs. This is what I mean by subjective data. To turn this into objective data, you would also need to include all the other targets that did not result in treasure being found. Even then, it is easy to unconsciously filter the data to get a positive skew in the final results.

Let's get down to some real objective testing. Some of the posters on this forum have clearly built their own LRLs, with differing results. If we can ignore dowsing in this discussion, then things can be kept simple, as dowsing is something else altogether (IMHO) so let's not go there.

If you have any circuits, then please post them. This will give us all something objective to test. We have already seen the Baby Mineoro, which is essentially an electrostatic meter. If the Mineoro's are an extension of this principle, then let's try it. This way the believers can prove their case, or alternatively the skeptics can say "I told you so". Of course, some people may say that the commercial LRLs cannot be duplicated because they are based on some new scientific principle that no-one but the inventer is able to understand. This is nonsense. Any type of metal detector that really works can be back-engineered.

To the believers - please help us skeptics to understand the error of our ways. We are standing by...

Qiaozhi.

hung

02-18-2006, 12:50 PM

The validity or otherwise of the LRL phenomenon is based on people's subjective experiences and not on an objective set of tests. http://thunting.com/geotech/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif

http://www.mineoro.com.br/portugues/tesouros/images/celi2.jpg

Does it look like a 'pathologica subject experience' to you? So now we have the ablity of materialize this subjectiveness, don't we?
This is a picture of my friend Celi with one of the 32 colonial era gold coins he found with the old PDC 205. Yeah, the one which Carl disassembled and said it does not work. On the same day he found nuggets of 144g per ton.
Unfortunately the picture is out of focus, but this is a 1816 gold coin. They were spread close together in an area, only 20 cm deep.

As for Carl's challenging... Too much confusion and work to worth it.. This does not excite me at all. I don't need it. Besides, if it was for real, the agreement about the 'treasure-tracker' challenge would have to be accepted imediately by him. At first he agreed and then backed out trying to modify the rules... The true test I have already done. I find gold with my detector. What else is left? Show off to the world? Nahh....

Well, for the next days I'll be on the field researching another site. I think I'm finished about this thread. I'll probably come back next, posting a report of the FG78.1. Till then.

hung

02-18-2006, 01:05 PM

Of course, some people may say that the commercial LRLs cannot be duplicated because they are based on some new scientific principle that no-one but the inventer is able to understand. This is nonsense. Any type of metal detector that really works can be back-engineered.

Be my guest. Try it. For my part Iknow you will not get anywhere. But for Mineoro's part, there might be legal consequences. I can't speak for them tough.

To the believers - please help us skeptics to understand the error of our ways. We are standing by...
Qiaozhi.

Sure we do. We are all brothers and want always help eeach other. But why simply not accept the fact that the detector is for real and better yet, it can be aquired? Do you think it's fair to 'steal' someone's sucess device? Why not get one and simply put it to work for you?
And then we have to hear all of the same BS talking from US to Brazil... How we need to prevent piracy if not, comercial consequences might arise... The same blah, blah, blah.. And they are first ones to not respect that.

tsai

02-18-2006, 01:15 PM

wBe my guest. Try it. For my part Iknow you will not get anywhere. But for Mineoro's part, there might be legal consequences. I can't speak for them tough.

Sure we do. We are all brothers and want always help eeach other. But why simply not accept the fact that the detector is for real and better yet, it can be aquired? Do you think it's fair to 'steal' someone's sucess device? Why not get one and simply put it to work for you?
And then we have to hear all of the same BS talking from US to Brazil... How we need to prevent piracy if not, comercial consequences might arise... The same blah, blah, blah.. And they are first ones to not respect that.

well said hung,Bravo

Qiaozhi

02-18-2006, 01:36 PM

http://www.mineoro.com.br/portugues/tesouros/images/celi2.jpg

Does it look like a 'pathologica subject experience' to you? So now we have the ablity of materialize this subjectiveness, don't we?
This is a picture of my friend Celi with one of the 32 colonial era gold coins he found with the old PDC 205. Yeah, the one which Carl disassembled and said it does not work. On the same day he found nuggets of 144g per ton.
Unfortunately the picture is out of focus, but this is a 1816 gold coin. They were spread close together in an area, only 20 cm deep.

As for Carl's challenging... Too much confusion and work to worth it.. This does not excite me at all. I don't need it. Besides, if it was for real, the agreement about the 'treasure-tracker' challenge would have to be accepted imediately by him. At first he agreed and then backed out trying to modify the rules... The true test I have already done. I find gold with my detector. What else is left? Show off to the world? Nahh....

Well, for the next days I'll be on the field researching another site. I think I'm finished about this thread. I'll probably come back next, posting a report of the FG78.1. Till then.

Nobody is denying the fact that you have found some very nice treasure, and you can "prove" this with a photo. Neither is there any accusations of fraud. We (the skeptics) are just trying to understand how this is possible with a device that Carl has disassembled and found to contain circuitry that (as far as we can ascertain) cannot possibly work as a metal detector. It just defies common sense and known physical laws. I know there has been some discussion of back-engineering, but this is only to try and understand what is being presented as fact, not to steal other people's ideas. I would be the first to admit that there are many things in the world that we do understand, and we are just trying to make sense of these claims. Simply asking us to accept this find as a proof that LRLs actually work is not acceptable. That's not how we (the skeptics) do things.

I would be very interested in your FG78.1 report when you return.

Dell Winders

02-18-2006, 03:02 PM

1. If the LRLs work, then why aren't their owners rich from all the treasure they found? Why aren't the manufacturers rich from all the treasure they found?

THE ANSWERS ARE THE SAME: If metal detectors work, then why aren't their owners rich from all the treasure they found? Why aren't the metal detector manufacturers rich fromall the treasure they found?

2. Why has not a single manufacturer of a LRL come to claim the $25,000 prize? Why has not a single owner of a LRL come to claim the $25,000 prize?

Would you like to add another $100,000 to Carl's Challenge to provide an incentive for folks to take a test designed for Losers? Statistics show that of the hundreds that have taken this type of test, there has never been a winner in over 20 years. Your money is safe. Carl's, so called challenge is nothing more than a copy cat, self promoting, publicity gimmick. Carl, is the only winner.

5. The proponents of LRLs talk a lot about ion and electrostatic field detection theories as an explanation of how their LRLs work. They also claim to have developed a little-known technology which most of the scientific community is unaware.

I was using fully electronic TR /LRL back as far as 1978. I 've been priveledged to use and field test numerous models for several private inventors since that time. I've used and tested these devices from aircraft, boats and in all types of geological conditions on land for more than 25 years. I have probably been the strongest most vocal proponnent of this concept. (not the bogus advertising claims) I have never, ever promoted any ION or ELECTROSTATIC field detection theories.

Earth Scientist, that I have conferred with are very well aware of the physics involved and how they might be incorporated into different applications that I have used, or tested.

I am also an avid Dowser, and with 35 years of Professional treasure hunting and salvage experience, I certainly know the difference between an application of physics, and meta-physics.

Folks, Please know what you are talking about before you attempt to speak for others with first hand field experience that might be viewing these forums.

"WHAT HAS BEEN DONE, CAN BE DONE" Dell

J_Player

02-18-2006, 06:30 PM

Hi Dell,

I am a little curious about your comment to "Please know what you are talking about before you attempt to speak for others with first hand field experience..." and your statement "I have never, ever promoted any ION or ELECTROSTATIC field detection theories".
I should point out that I was not referring to you as a person who advanced ION or ELECTROSTATIC field detection theories. I was referring to the more vocal proponents like esteban, hung, and (according to Carl) JPF DamÃ¡sio. However, the Mineoro detector which this forum thread is about is specified as a device that uses a detection system of "Ionic directional classifier. Ionic and electrostatic fields". This is exactly what it says on the Mineoro product page: http://knouzm.com/display/text/1121774326271-1154/parentContent/1106038097859-0154/

What I am talking about is the things that people are talking about in this forum thread, and the brand of detector that the thread is about. I am talking about how the thread will go nowhere until somebody demonstrates some utility from one of these machines.

I have no doubt that you have used and tested these devices for many years, and are aware of the difference between physics and metaphysics. I am not convinced that these machines cannot work. This is why I would like to see a demonstration of the machine working in a believable manner that shows it is a useful tool for a treasure hunter.

I don't understand how it is a losing proposition to demonstrate the machine to claim the $25,000 prize money. If you fail to find the target then you dont have to pay any fee, but if you demonstrate that the machine works, you get $25,000. Only Carl is putting his cash at stake, not you. But let's say that his test is unfair for some reason that I can't percieve, and should be avoided.

Why not just demonstrate the machine working for no prize money. Most companies that sell metal detectors will gladly demonstrate their detectors locating targets if you ask them. They will show you how the machine works, and even adjust it for you, then let you find some hidden targets before you part with your money. It is good business because they want to make sure you got the right model that works the best for you.

Why not demonstrate these machines like any conventional metal detector manufacturer does, and let the prospective buyer see how well it works before buying? Is that too much to ask?

Qiaozhi

02-18-2006, 07:05 PM

Dell Winders

02-18-2006, 09:53 PM

However, the Mineoro detector which this forum thread is about is specified as a device that uses a detection system of "Ionic directional classifier. Ionic and electrostatic fields".

If you will notice, I started this thread and I had read the MINERO webpage before I started it. I mentioned nothing about the theory in which it may, or may not work.

So, what's the problem getting a demonstration? Just go to the factory, or a dealer and get a demonstration just like you would do to buy any product. I know a couple of folks that have traveled to California for a Mineoro demonstration. The customer that purchased the Mineoro, I tested bought it direct from the manufacturer as a result of their advertising, without a demonstration, or consulting

There have been hundreds people from all parts of the world that have come to Haines City, Florida USA during the past 25 years to learn the best method to use, and correctly interpret the reactions of rods with Remote Sensing Dscriminators without electronic receivers. There has never been a charge, or obligation for my time in sharing my field experience with these products.

"WHAT HAS BEEN DONE, CAN BE DONE" Dell

Qiaozhi

02-18-2006, 11:46 PM

Right now, I will reserve my opinion on it's merit in the field until I learn, and understand more about it.

Hi Dell,

This is your quote from this very forum I believe, refering to a Mineoro detector.
Are we not all simply searching for the same answer?

It must clear by now that this whole LRL discussion has reached a stalemate, with neither side able to make progress. Does anyone have a suggestion that would break the deadlock - perhaps someone without a strong opinion either way??

Dell Winders

02-19-2006, 01:24 AM

Originally Posted by Dell Winders
Right now, I will reserve my opinion on it's merit in the field until I learn, and understand more about it.

Right! I am skeptical of what I have not experienced for myself. Not of how it works, but if it works. Now I know.

Sides? Is that what you want this discussion to be about?

The truth doesn't take sides. I said that The Minero I tested does work in the field, but not necessarily as advertised. That's the truth proven out by the fact that it did work. I will not take sides by denying the truth regardless of my personal opinion of the Mineoro, or the Skeptic cult.

Stalemate? Not unless you think you already know everything there is to know about the subject. Every one here is free to learn from their own experience with this product, or any, the same as I do. So, what is the problem with you getting a MINEORO demonstration and learn for yourself from personal experience and be able to speak intelligently from first hand knowledge, instead of relying on assumption or hearsay?

"WHAT HAS BEEN DONE, CAN BE DONE" Dell

Carl-NC

02-19-2006, 02:16 AM

It must clear by now that this whole LRL discussion has reached a stalemate, with neither side able to make progress. Does anyone have a suggestion that would break the deadlock - perhaps someone without a strong opinion either way??

Yes... I have an opportunity to purchase a PDC210. I asked earlier what this model originally cost, and how much Mineoro is charging for the new models. Apparently no one knows. I'd still like to know the original cost of the PDC210 before I agree to a price.

Also, I'm concerned about getting "the right" PDC210. That is, when I posted my results of the PDC205, I was told that I had a "1-knob" PDC205 instead of the "2-knob" PDC205. I guess the 1-knob model was bogus, but the 2-knob model was the Real Deal. Anyway, I'd like to know if there is a particular PDC210 model that Really Works, or, conversely, is there a PDC210 model to avoid.

- Carl

Dell Winders

02-19-2006, 04:17 AM

I don't remember for sure but a figure between $6000 - $8000 comes to mind. Having had field experience with other electronic LRLs, and knowing the limitations, I am not impressed with the high price of MINEORO technology. Dell

Carl-NC

02-19-2006, 04:45 AM

J_Player

02-19-2006, 05:03 AM

Hi Carl,
I'm looking at the Mineoro page that shows a 4-knob plus meter model called the Model DC2006: http://www.mineoro.com/tesouros/dc2006.htm
When you click for more information and prices, you are taken to a page that asks you to fill in a form with your name and address and telephone/email etc, but you are not told the price.

This page also lists quite a few other new models, some with up to 10 times more range of distance detection than the models they replace. At the bottom of the page thay list both the PDC205 and PDC210 among the discontinued models.
Mineoro has another page that shows their all-new model FG78.1 for sensing fresh gold: http://www.mineoro.com/tesouros/fg781.htm The price link also leads to a form to fill out without telling prices.

I spent almost an hour googling for a price on any Mineoro machine, and found nothing except links to the manufacturer's site, which linked to several distributor sites that had similar forms to fill in rather than telling the price. (I wonder if there is a fixed price for this machine, or do they adjust the price when a buyer calls in)? I did find this pricing % breakdown chart on another of the Mineoro factory pages: http://www.mineoro.com.br/novosite/english/politica.htm
The USA rep is in New York, whose page lists the PDC205PH and the PDC210 as their only products, and they are both sold out: http://www.gnld.ws/id1.html But there is a downloadable user guide at the bottom of this page from the USA rep: http://www.gnld.ws/index.html Apparently only the factory site carries a complete line and stocks the newest products.

Hope that helped

Carl-NC

02-19-2006, 05:18 AM

Yes, I've also hit a brick wall in trying to get pricing. Mineoro blacklisted my email address, so my emails to them simply bounce back.

- Carl

J_Player

02-19-2006, 05:38 AM

I have to agree with Dell. There is no need to develop sides, because we are all just trying to find out the facts about the Mineoro LRLs. It may have an appearance of taking sides because of the long drawn out technical debates about the operating principles early in the thread. But what we all overlooked is that Dell started the thread, and he seems to have more knowledge and experience than the rest of us in how these devices work. And he is also right, that all we need to do is find a dealer to demonstrate the machine. However, I can't find anyone on the net who has these available in this country except the factory rep in New York. And I am nowhere near New York. Is there a list of dealers who sell these machines un the USA? I am planning to buy a metal detector in the near future and I don't want to miss out on a Looking at some LRLs when I choose my next machine. And Dell, can you recommend some models that I should be looking at which are reasonably priced for their performance?

Thank you

michael

02-19-2006, 06:53 AM

One time I filled out the price form. After 2 days received e-mail
from mineoro. as I remember the suggested price for both models GDP 538 and
DC 2006 was about 4000$. I have the file in my PC archive but I am now
at my work place. I am so eager to know the latest test results of their products.

mosha

02-19-2006, 07:58 AM

I asked mineoro about the price, here is the reply:

Dear Sirs,

Thank you for your enquiry about our vanguardist detectors.

In 2006 Mineoro proudly launched to the market model DC2006, in three
versions.
Read all about them on www.mineoro.com/tesouros/dc2006.htm

At the moment we are running a very special Introductory Offer
40% off. Do not miss it!

DC2006 100% USD$ 8,100.00 40% off.......USD 4.860.-
DC2006 80% USD$ 7,290.00 40% off......USD 4.374.-
DC2006 60% USD$ 6,561.00 40% off......USD 3.936,60

FREIGHT AND INSURANCE VIA PRIVATE COURIER INCLUDED!

Bank data and instructions about how to place your order in attachment.

Graphic comparing the performance of models in test field on
http://www.mineoro.com/tesouros/tabeladc.htm (http://www.mineoro.com/tesouros/tabeladc.htm)

We also produce Ionic Detectors:

- DIAS2005 All Substances...USD1,990 (one thousand nine hundred and
ninety
dollars)+ FREIGHT

- IGD2005 Only Gold.........USD 1,400 (one thousand four hundred
dollars) +
FREIGHT

J_Player

02-19-2006, 08:02 AM

Excellent post Michael. Thanks for the info.

Can you email me here? I have a non-forum questoin I would like to ask...

J_Player59@hotmail.com

J_Player

02-19-2006, 08:16 AM

Thanks Mosha. Thiis is what we were wanting to know. http://thunting.com/geotech/forums/images/icons/icon14.gif It looks like Dell was right on target, putting aside the introductory offer.

J_Player

02-19-2006, 08:24 AM

Thanks for the post Mosha. This is what we have been wanting to know. http://thunting.com/geotech/forums/images/icons/icon14.gif It looks like Dell was right on target, putting aside the introductory offer.

Qiaozhi

02-19-2006, 11:36 AM

I have to agree with Dell. There is no need to develop sides, because we are all just trying to find out the facts about the Mineoro LRLs. It may have an appearance of taking sides because of the long drawn out technical debates about the operating principles early in the thread. But what we all overlooked is that Dell started the thread, and he seems to have more knowledge and experience than the rest of us in how these devices work. And he is also right, that all we need to do is find a dealer to demonstrate the machine.

My apologies if I've wound some of you up over this subject (especially Dell) but I am just trying to establish the facts. This "yes it does", "no it doesn't" type of discussion isn't leading anywhere. That's what I meant by "stalement". As for taking sides - hopefully we're all on the same side.

michael

02-19-2006, 11:39 AM

Hi Jay. I will mail you at night. It must be mentioned Mineoro has a distributor in U.A.E. with name "Konouzem".
They are very merciless and sell instruments in outrageous prices. e.g.
Mineoro PDC 210 about 13000$ (48000 emirate derhams).
or sell Dell Omnitron Pro 4 about 7000 $ (25000 emirate derhams).

Dell Winders

02-19-2006, 09:11 PM

And Dell, can you recommend some models that I should be looking at which are reasonably priced for their performance?
J Player, I don't reccommend products. I can only relate my personal experience with a product that I have used, and someone else experience may be different from my own with the same product under different conditions.

I do strongly suggest you ask questions and become as well informed as you can about the product you are interested in, especially the limitations, before you decide to buy. Ignore the advertising hype. Mis-leading, deceptive, and competetive advertising over the past 25 years has mis-lead consumers to have un-realistic expectations of these types of products. In the end, these products are only going to be as good as the knowledge and experience of the people using them.

If you are considering building your own inexpensive Frequency Discriminator, or purchasing one that uses so called Dowsing rods to meter the response I've posted some information and my method of using the Rod(s) at, http://treasureamerica.netfirms.com/phpbb/xx/nfphpbb/viewtopic.php?t=286

If you have questions, feel free to call me at my home number, 863 422-5454. Leave a message and number, and I will return your call.

Qiaozhi, Your apology is gratefully, and humbly accepted. I feel honored as this is the first time in 15 years that a proclaimed skeptic has ever apologized to me. Thank You! Dell

J_Player

02-20-2006, 01:59 AM

Hi dell,
You are right once again. So I am officially asking these questions:

1. Without revealing the (apparently secret) brand names of LRL's that work well in your opinion, what are the limitations of the moderate-priced LRL machines that are suitable for finding treasures? Please be specific so I will know what I cannot expect these machines to do, and what I can expect them to do.

2. With the understanding that this is in no way an endorsement for any particular product, what machines would you prefer to use if you wanted to search a 1/4 mile square plot of land in front of you for coins and jewelry that have been buried under the ground for more than 5 years? Does the composition of the ground matter? ie: mineralized, sand, clay, etc.

3. Is dowsing in any way related or incorporated into the ability of these LRL machines to locate treasures? If so how?

4. Can you tell me how to contact any USA dealers for the Mineoro LRLs besides the New York distributor?

5. Are there step-by-step instructions available for "building your own inexpensive Frequency Discriminator"?

6. You have made several comments that indicate you do not endorse the ion or staticelectric field detection theories. I am officially asking you what detection principle do you believe these machines operate on?

Dell Winders

02-20-2006, 04:01 AM

4. Can you tell me how to contact any USA dealers for the Mineoro LRLs besides the New York distributor?

Here is the link of the USA dealer, copied from the Mineoro web site.
www.gnld.ws (http://www.gnld.ws)

Your other questions were not related to this thread, so I'll start another thread tomorrow and try to answer your questions to the best of my knowledge. I'm a bit weary tonight. Thanks! Dell

J_Player

02-20-2006, 04:45 AM

Thanks Dell,

I checked out your site and found it interesting, full of details. I found very little in the way of a quick overview that explains to the newbie how the LRLs work, but plenty of details and refinements. I am trying to have some basic understanding of the principle how these machines work, and what seperates a great LRL from an average one. I have no desire to reverse engineer any equipment, but I wouldn't mind building a a machine that works half as well as a commercially sold model if it wasn't too dificult. From the questions I posted, you can get an idea what I want to know.

ivconic

02-20-2006, 10:34 PM

:mad:

"...I guess this is my last visit here...."
I thought so. But very next day I checked my e-mail and found a bedlam
of mails.Over 50 inbox. Different people was criticize me about my posts
and ask from me what I was posted in the previous post:

"Upon 50 wasted years(sorry, but it has to be wasted if those latest products
are the top of their success) they trying to compensate lost time to get
rich by selling nonsence devices to naive and beleivers by hot prices!
No, really....collect all materiall to build mineoro, it will cost you a
$30-$40...not a $8000 !!!!!!If you do not know how, than I'll build it for
you for some $100 extra."

I am simply not able to argue any more on this subject neither to answer to
everybody. Neither I am gonna take a part in this thread any more. But since
I stated what I stated, I think that all those people deserve, what I said.
Here is my "expend" of "debt".One more thing, I do not intend to analyze this
schematic or to give any comment.No questions, no answers.Only one claim:
this device at least do something, despite some commercial devices do nothing!
I mentioned $100....Well, I give it for free now to everybody!
Best regards and good bye!

michael

02-21-2006, 04:46 AM

Thanks so much Mr. Ivconic.It's precious and I by my own appreciate it and your favor. I hope it be a useful and practical. Regards, Michael.

J_Player

02-21-2006, 07:42 AM

Thank you for posting the circuit diagram Ivconic. It will prove very useful to those who wish to build a LRL.

For those who want a circuit commentary, I can give a brief overview. Keep in mind I am not an electronic technician, and I may make some errors.

Starting at the left, we have an oscillator built around the U1 LM555 with it's own dedcicated power supply (this supply is most likely isolated to prevent noise from the oscillator from reaching the sensor circuitry). This oscillator is coupled to the aluminum reflector dish through a small transformer. The secondary side of this transformer circuit which connects to the dish looks a little unconventional to me. This oscillator appears to be the only transmitter circuitry, whose frequency is adjusted with the 100k potentiometer at the left side of the 555. I suppose the transmitter is turned on and off by removing the 9v battery to the left, or a switch could be added to disconnect the battery.

The reciever portion starts with the 30 cm telescoping antenna in the dish. It is shown connected to a wire that passes through a teflon bushing in the center of the dish. It should be said at this point, that teflon is one of the best insulators known, and the use of teflon may be crucial for top performance. The physical dimension of this teflon bushing may also be important depending on what frequency range the oscillator is operating at. I presume the aluminum dish is a parabolic shape.

Next we come to the sensor circuitry. (I presume this circuiotry is isolated and shielded from the oscillator and dish). All of the sensor circuitry is powered by the two 9v batteries shown at the bottom right. The two voltage regulators provide 8v positive, 8v negative, and a ground. The sensor circuit is also turned on and off by removing the batteries, but a 2-gang switch could be added to turn it on and off. When we trace the wire from the antenna to the 3 ICs to the right, we see the signal is feeding into what looks like a "push-pull" amplifier, whose output is sent to a differential amplifier. The diagram shows this differential amplifier at the left side, with an IC to the right that is another stage of amplification.

Take note, that the differential amplifier at the left has 3 potentiometers, one to control the feedback, and two that adjust the output signal that feeds to the next amplifier stage. This is most likely where the sensitivity of this machine is adjusted. After passing through the amplifier at the right, the signal branches toward the speaker and a meter. The speaker has a small power transistor driving it, while the meter has an IC with another adjustment on the input side (appears to be a gain control to keep the meter in the desired range).

If anyone was to build this circuit, I suppose the mechanical considerations would be to make sure the dish and antenna assembly were sturdy enough to withstand whatever use you put the machine to, and, if it is to operate like other LRLs, I would think you need to build a handle that allows the antenna/dish assembly to rotate easily. I imagine the balance of the finished machine is also important. It would be nice to see a photo of a machine that uses this circuitry.

mosha

02-21-2006, 08:45 AM

thank you ivconic for the circuit.
thank you J_Player for the explanation.

can we convert or modify this circuit to detect positive ions also.

thank you,

robert

02-21-2006, 10:05 AM

:) :) :)
Hmmm! Very interesting design, even It is not obvious and clear at the first site.
I have to apply some notes as reply on Junior's analyze. The Al dish with 555 oscilator
is not transmitting at all!But it has almost crucial role in a whole design! The 555 portion
of the device with transformer it seems that have a job only to polarize surface of the dish.
Since it was stated in the name "...negative ions detector...", which means that dish will
reject and retract positive ions and atract negative ones.Input stage is divided on two
input amplifiers(very uncommon) with an ultra high input impendance, which is on some case
logical since it should "suck" ions.Both amps. outputs lead in to diff.amp, but very strange
one.Is it diff. amp or something else? The rest of circuitry explains it'self.The strange
connection of the secondary of transformer is due to make certain potential on the dish
surface and it can be turned by reversing the diodes in a positive ions "sucker".One thing which
really confused me is the "mono" supply of that MPSA13. It will provide much less power than in
case where collector is connected on the minus pole. But since MPSA can go "wild" this is
taken to eliminate that, i guess.I do not think that antenna/dish assembly should be mounted
on a rotary handle. It will not "follow" signal and rotate in that manner. It should be mounted
very ortodox,taking care of isolation between 555 part and the rest.The transformer stated to
be an "Supreme US 028 So 22168 Motorola-Lucent". I tried to find it in Motorola catalogue, but
without success! But i founded on e-bay some chinesse product labeled as "...yuo 22168" which
is almost identical as mentioned one, according to resistance.And guess what !? It is the same
transformer as the one on my 56k modem !? it just has galvanic isolation with 1.5 transforming
rate!Those who wish to build this device start cracking your modems!I doubt that this device is
able to detect ions at long distance, but it will detect ions for sure, and it will be really
selective and "suck" only negative ions.Also it's assignment is probably in some industrial
process not really in the field of detection! But a whole design looks much more conventional
and "working" than all the other's lrl's i have seen here on this and others forums! Just look
a trivial devices as metioned early in this forum (dell's omnitron,mineoro,electroscope...etc).
I absolutely agree with you Junior, it would be nice to see and check a machine that uses this
circuitry.But it's not gonna be easy to do a mechanical construcion proper.It should be taken
care mostly on that!Those who finish it first let's report to the others first results.
regards,
Robert

michael

02-21-2006, 01:40 PM

J_player and robert! Thanks a lot for your golden comments.
I don't know much about electronics, but one expert electrician that
built a very good transmitter for me (and I passed my double blind
tests 100% successfully by combination it with Dell Directional Rod)
mentioned LM 555 produces a square wave with unstable frequency and
with maximum 30 KHZ output Whereas the mineoro output is nearly
300 MHZ.[The oscillator been used in my transmitter is XR 2206]
Anyway I hope be practical. Regards, Michael.

Esteban

02-21-2006, 04:47 PM

If you build it, don't use plastic case, the plastic acumulates static electricity and any friction in it will be produce false signals. Barnish wood is better. Also barnish your PCBs considering humidity. Also synthetic clothes are bad.

Esteban

02-21-2006, 05:36 PM

This is a sample of box for gold metal detector (via high voltage).

(ivconic, don't leave us.)

goldfinder

02-21-2006, 06:47 PM

The 555 is not too stable. If anyone wants a PIC programmed with some frequency (less than 5Khz) let me know. I can do one for $15 including postage and two for $20.
Goldfinder

Dell Winders

02-21-2006, 07:26 PM

LINK: http://treasureamerica.netfirms.com/phpbb/xx/nfphpbb/viewtopic.php?p=922#922

J PLAYER, I'm encountering some time constraints that prevent me from answering your questions at this moment, and this forum has an edit time limit.

I took the liberty of posting your questions on the TA forum, where I hope to be able to reply tonight or tomorrow. I apologize for the delay, and thank you for your patience. Dell

J_Player

02-21-2006, 08:55 PM

Thank you Dell.

If I get to a point where I have a clear understanding of these LRLs, I will write up a couple pages that you can use to send any newbie to learn the basics of how they work and what they are expected to do, and how they are different than dowsing tools.

J_Player

02-21-2006, 10:14 PM

After reading robert's comments about the circuitry of this device, a few thoughts come to mind:

1. The purpose of the 555 oscillator circuit appears to be exactly as robert says. The secondary side of the transformer in this circuit appeared to be unconventional to me because it is not intended to be a transmitter, but a dc charging circuit to put a positive charge on the dish. However, the ac component may have some function in the operation of the LRL. I assumed the potentiometer on the 555 is intended to adjust the oscillation frequency. If this is true, the resultant oscillator frequency may determine the ultimate voltage at the dish, as this voltage is dependent on the time constants of the LC circuit at the secondary of the transformer. Also, the electrical charging of the dish comes as a half wave series of pulses. Depending on how well the 105 mfd capacitor acts as a filter, the dish may be recieving a noticable ac component which could concievably influence the operation of the LRL. Take note that there is a dish and an antenna in the center, which are commonly used to either transmit or recieve radio frequency signals, even if the dimensions do not correspond to the relatively low frequeny that this oscillator is operating. On the other hand, if the dish was intended to have a clean dc charge with no ac component, then perhaps the dish and antenna configuration only coincidentally looks like a radio frequency transmitter or reciever. If this is the case, then we are looking at a staticly charged dish and the sensor circuitry is detecting minute variations in the voltage on the antenna. I agree that reversing the polarity of the 2 4001 diodes will reverse the polarity of the dish, and (presumably) will collect signals of opposite polarity than before reversing the diodes. By reversing these diodes I doubt there will be any need to change the detecting circuit because it is coupled by non-polar capacitors.

2. The purpose of the first stage in the sensing circuit is unknown to me. I think it looks like a "push-pull" amplifier, but there may be more to it. There are 3 amplifiers in this stage. The top 2 appear to be the two active sensing amplifiers while the third at the bottom appears to function as a phase shifter for the bottom amplifier. The appearance is that the upper and lower legs of this part of the circuit are designed to provide a differential signal to feed into the differential amp to the right (second stage). I doubt there is any discrimination feature built into this portion of the circuit because there is no provision to adjust the phase shift in the lower of the 3 first stage amplifier components. It may be possible that the phase shift is set to a pre-selected amount that has some target discrimination importance. But this looks doubtful to me. It appears that the real work of the circuitry is done in the second stage with the differential amplifier. The adjustment of the potentiometers at this stage should give a very wide range and very precise adjustment which leaves a nearly neutral output signal that is very sensitive to any variation of input signal ranges. In ways it reminds me of chemelec's balance bridge metal detector project in operation, but connected to a dish and antenna instead of coils. As robert stated, the rest is simple amplifiers and a meter and speaker.

If my understanding of the purpose of these circuits is correct, then many of these components could be replaced by more efficient parts, such as a more stable circuit that connects to the dish, and possibly a more efficient sensing circuit that preserves the same degree of sensitivity, and uses standard rechargable AA batteries.

I know next to nothing about the principle by which this device locates treasures, or if it can locate treasures. But just as a commentary, it is one of the few LRL designs I have seen that uses no "bait charge" or sealed chambers, while using an electronic circuit that is designed to sense and amplify a signal using standard electronic circuits and principles. I see no place where there are wires terminating on surplus or non-working circuit boards, or circuit components not electrically connected, but only glued together.

J_Player

02-21-2006, 11:28 PM

Thanks for the photo, estaban.

A couple other circuitry notes that came to mind about the "negative ion detector" circuit:

1. A metal box sounds like a good idea. Keep in mind, when you send a positive charge to the dish, you are also sending an equal strength negative charge to the ground rails of the circuit. It sounds like a good idea to have a metal enclosure to keep any static charge from the circuitry from interfering with the dish or antenna. In fact it might be good to enclose the entire charging circuit in a small metal mesh or box inside the main enclsure so it wont send any stray static charge to the sensor circuitry. Since we are talking about static, any source of stray static electricity seems bad around the sensor, including synthetic clothes (try wearing 100% cotton), as well as any other objects that collect a static charge in the vicinity of the LRL.

2. I have always liked discrete cmos technology for projects of this type, where you are sensing very small signals, and there is no high degree of signal processing. Cmos uses a lot less power, is more stable, and operates on 5 to 15 volts. It is also very quiet as far as creating interference, and very resistant to recieving interference. While cmos is not generally used as a linear amplifier, a combination of FETs and two cmos VCOs could replace the differential amp to capture the signal. I suspect a properly designed circuit would be at least as sensitive as the existing circuit. The dish-charging portion of this LRL is relatively easy to convert to cmos, for a lot lower power consumption and better stability. A cmos quad inverter could be wired as an oscillator in place of the 555, with small resistors and tantalum capacitors that could be potted in epoxy so it is not affected by moisture. There is also a 555c which is an exact replacement of the 555 in cmos technology with better temperature stabiility. Or a crystal timing circuit could be added if stability was critical (somehow I doubt the frequency matters within 10% for a charging circuit).

If the circuitry of this sensor was converted to cmos or another low-power design, then the only real power used would be in the final amplifier stages to drive the speaker and meter and the dish charging amplifier. I imagine the power draw would probably be in the area of 20 to 50 milliamps, probably more like 5 milliamps in the quiescent state. I would think that using the same 9v batteries would be suitable, but they would probably last about 20 times longer, using only one battery in the sensor section, and one in the dish charger.

FrancoItaly

02-22-2006, 10:42 AM

I find this ions detector very similar to Mineoro' models, the
"black box" of Carl' model may be the transistor version of LM555 generator, tha large trace around the perimeter is the
Al Dish. I think that the signal to the speaker will be in the audio frequency, the same that is generated by the LM555, then above 100 Hz. I find a bad idea the 9 volt imput of the
78L08 and 78L09 with only 1 volt of swing.
The 100k resistor and the 1n capacitor in the first stage I think are a positive reaction only for AC signals for increase input impedance but not for DC voltage.

ivconic

02-23-2006, 12:38 AM

:)
Friends,
I am in the middle of something...I am projecting some device these days.
That's why I was absent, I am not really off this excell forums.I read Your posts and replys on posted schematic and I am very satisfied and gratefull on Your"echoes" on that matter. Only way to give more life on this thematic(lrl) is to post some schematics,photos,cracks and further to analyze it, like You all(thank You for that) done here.Keep that way.I am very pleased reading those analyze and advices. Unlike on some other forums where You can read a lot of philospohy,empty retorics and self-promoting(not progressive at all), here,now is much different case. I would like to see more schematics,exchange,opinions,and scientific analyze.I am preparing soon something very interesting too, to post on some of threads here.But it will happen in a few weeks.Until than I would like You to post some draws, mods on that ionic detector, about the way You would like to improve it.Let's togather make some better device! 'mo better blues....
best regards
keep in touch!

J_Player

02-23-2006, 10:19 AM

This talk about the construction of a negative ion detector is quite interesting. However we are straying off topic. This thread was started by Dell to show us that he was testing the Minero machine. What Dell said is the preliminary tests show the Mineoro does work, but is not up to performance level that he would expect for a device with that kind of price tag. There was also a lot of debating about the principles on which this machine worked.

It seems to me the topic of the Minero LRL was finished when Ivconic introduced his schematic for what he calls a "working LRL". The topic changed, and we need to start a new thread if we are to continue any discussion on this negative ion detector. So if anyone is interested in pursuing Ivconic's LRL, look for the new thread devoted to the Negative Ion Detector.

Jim

02-23-2006, 11:23 AM

This thread was started by Dell to show us that he was testing the Minero machine. What Dell said is the preliminary tests show the Mineoro does work, but is not up to performance level that he would expect for a device with that kind of price tag.

Is $8,000 really an outrageous to pay for something that is â€œsupposedâ€ to find tons and tons of buried gold/treasure? Dell Winders manufactures/sells LRL products themselves, how odd that he should make such a comment. â€œGlass Housesâ€ effect, and such.

Jim

goldfinder

02-23-2006, 05:43 PM

My own preference is to keep this thread alive. It has good vibes, the submitters have been very constructive and not stabbing each other whenever views are different.

Beside, we don't really know if the Minero really works... and $8000 is a lot of money to dump for something that is outside of the norm in our current science paradigm.

Also, I would rather we do the experiments ourselves, published results and learn learn learn. I would rather find a way around dumping 8 grand if we can figure out how to do it for a few hundred dollars or less. There is nothing wrong or illegal in duplicating a patent for personal use and you can't patent scientific principles.

My current experiments didn't prove out with my current ion detector so I may upgrade it so its for ions only, not both ions and electrostatic fields.

The Minero still looks like a scam to me but I am willing to do some testing. If you rich guys that bought a Minero would submit one for testing we could put a lot of this to bed.

Goldfinder

J_Player

02-23-2006, 06:58 PM

This thread is still alive. Only the section about the non-Mineoro ion detector construction has been moved. The results of Dell's preliminary testing are posted in the TA forum here: http://www.treasureamerica.com//phpbb/xx/nfphpbb/viewtopic.php?t=278&start=0

Dell is still testing and trying to learn why the new Mineoro machine does not perform as well as the other LRL brands that it was tested against. Apparently the Minero machine does work, but only under specific field conditions which are not necessary for the other models to work. Dell is looking to find some method or procedure that may have been omitted from the Minero instruction manual, which is necessary in order to make the Mineoro perform like the other LRLs.

If you want to build an alternate design, then the negative ion detector design can be built for under $50 worth of electronic parts plus a salvaged radio antenna and aluminim dish. I moved that thread because it has nothing to do with reporting the results of the new Mineoro machines. It should be noted that any device that detects ions using the method of this electronic detector will by its nature of design also detect electrostatic fields and electrostatic frequenies in the audio spectrum if they are present in the vicinity of the dish.

There is also a step-by-step plan for building a molecular frequency discriminating LRL by Carl here: http://www.thunting.com/cgi-bin/geotech/pages/common/index.pl?page=lrl&file=/projects/mfd1/index.dat
This MFD LRL costs even less than the negative ion detector (probably costs about $20 worth of electronic parts and plastic sprinkler pipe parts, plus a brass welding rod). The upper limit would be $50 as Carl stated, if you bought all the parts online and paid for shipping.

I hesitate to build either of these designs or buy a Mineoro machine until I can understand the exact details of the principle on which these devices work. It seems to me that There are many modifications that could be easily made to the LRLs at very low cost which may greatly enhance their performance. But I have never had any LRL perform for me in a manner that showed me where any treasure is located. According to Dell, practical experience and knowledge of how to use a LRL is more important than the design of the machine for locating treasure. And Until I have some knowledge or experience that can lead to finding treasure with a LRL, I think I am wasting my time and money pursuing a LRL. See more on this in the new thread on Ivconic's ion detector.

Largesarge

02-23-2006, 11:22 PM

I agree with JP, this is the wrong place to discuss building any type of equipment. I don't know but perhaps our most wonderful host "Carl the Munificent" (yup I'm kiss'n up) could start a thread with an appropriate title and move those posts relevent to that subject to it. ;) :D

robert

05-09-2006, 11:06 PM

ts,ts,ts !!!

robert

05-09-2006, 11:07 PM

...

robert

05-09-2006, 11:11 PM

:)
No really.....
this kind of claims and retorics is abusing,offencing my inteligence....
What man can do against it?
Nothing much but play nonsence...
Regards....
P.S.
Clean this excell forum from lrl trash !!!

michael

05-10-2006, 11:02 AM

Hi. Could you please explain more about your purpose of putting the Pic?
please write in english. Are you one of them in the Pic?

Delbert grady

05-10-2006, 06:16 PM

Struth Sundance. I would not like to run in to the bad guys in that town.

Qiaozhi

05-10-2006, 10:31 PM

... Are you one of them in the Pic?
I very much doubt it http://thunting.com/geotech/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif http://thunting.com/geotech/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif http://thunting.com/geotech/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif
Some of it is in English (well - American slang anyway) and as for the rest of it, I can make an intelligent guess.
Doesn't sound too complimentary to me http://thunting.com/geotech/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif

Michael - I believe it's supposed to be a joke against the Mineoro manufacturers http://thunting.com/geotech/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif

robert

05-11-2006, 06:52 AM

:)
Yes, it was just a joke....nothing else...
All i can do against LRL pandemia is to jokin'
regards...
P.S.
I am not one of them for sure! Besides i reside in Europe...and I am not English...

michael

05-11-2006, 10:34 AM

robert! If you ridicule Long Range Detection, I can say you never know anything about it. the long range detection technique is real but the accuracy and precision of results differs from some to others.
Yesterday I talked to phone with a PDC 210 Owner he said had found many small
targets not very deep but for every deep detection encountered to empety holes he thought this device is only for shallow targets, but I think it's pinpointing for deep targets has problem.
some of them he had found; 1 gold coin at 30 cm, 5 gold coin at 70 cm and 3 golden earing at 150 cm
depth. what's the truth???

Francisco Xavier

05-11-2006, 12:14 PM

There is so much posts about quite...nothing.

First the fundamentals of working, the basics of electronics and the construction quality are at least third world, third mind, level to say stupid.
Second, it is a fraud to ask $ 8 K for a misery lyke this device.
Third, the individuals that buy such a device, for that price, without taking any advice from a electronic engineer or other serious expert, are at last Christmas Father believers to say imatures.
I beleave this forum is a open mind and for SERIOUS TECHNICAL questions not for pseudo-cience and gost believers.

Good luck hunting

Esteban

05-11-2006, 02:19 PM

Michael

Remember me the persons of the Medium Age. They had uniformity mind: "the Earth is square"...

I'm happy because there are many persons wich never will see long range detection or semi-long range.

TECHNICAL INFO. Work in this way: consider an electric field around the conductive target and you will advance very much.

:D

michael

05-11-2006, 08:30 PM

Hi dear Esteban. nice to see your post again.
Francisco Xavier!! and robert!!
The discussion is not for the price. the only important thing is the device could work appropriately now the electrical components cost 1$ or 1000000$. it is made of steel or plastic or is just a wooden twig.
If can show the hot place, is approved. do you have anything ,any word to learn us? or you are like as many other men just can disquiet minds? don't close your eyes open your mouth or pen and shout OOOOHHHH people long range detection is fraudulence. why? have you done field tests? Do you claim you are an experienced man?
do you have any new thing for us? (definitely documented) If yes, I will be your disciple.
Do you have anything better than toys(conventional metal detectors) for us?

A forum is a place for exchanging and sharing information and experiences not to deny or approve zealously a certain name, firm , a manner and etc.
A forum is a place people learn from each other not to ridicule or humiliate each other.
a forum like as this can progress our knowledge an abilities only when the members present their evident and honest founds. persons such as Dell Winders, Esteban , Hung and even Carl-NC.
some people have statements and some other may have just a word, but sometimes that odd word is golden.
I don't approve or deny mineoros and never know them. I live in Middle East and only looking for truth.
One day you see Carl-NC claims mineoro 205 never works and disassembles it and says "It has nothing for these reasons don't waste your money for it". well, this is a high-worthy performance anyway he has done
one thing and a motion like as self-sacrificing. but you, Francisco Xavier and robert!!, do you have like as this for us?
If no, please don't give an injury to the way for reaching the truth.

robert

05-12-2006, 12:42 AM

:p
Michael, you can phone me and i'll tell you even more fantastic story about my finds.
Francisco Xavier , good point ! I agree with you all!
Esteban i do respect you ! With you i can talk even i do not aprove all your claims.
"Do you have anything better than toys(conventional metal detectors) for us?"
Michael are you martian !? "Toys", you said !!?? Those toys are only devices with wich
you can find at least anything! I would like to have something better than ordinary
metal detector in spirit of finding much more than i do.But all of you martians are
holding secret just for yourself, we ordinary people are stuck to ordinary devices...
About contributions here....This is only one thread in this forum, why do not you
visit other threads and read at least something else than lrl.....Besides, the main
contribution here is to stop naive people to waste money on trash! To explain to the
people what is fraud and what is not. I have full right to claim my claims according to
my experience, even to uncover and spitt on charlatans and mountebanks here.....Some
of them are so agressive in "pushing" wrong ideas and lies here that it corrupt the whole
concept of this excell forum. Being here,night by night, for me means a lot, to read and
learn from the others,to download schematics,tips,hints, to comunicate with other people
but when i see that somebody trying to "sell" nonsence to me and others than i have right
to react. There are other forums on the .net, just for the lrl'sts. Why do you people have
such strong need to come here and spoil everything. We (ordinary IB and PI "toy" lovers)
do not coming to your forums and do not bug in your fairy tales.
Esteban is a rare example of LRL'st i can talk and comunicate with, 'cose he is not
agressive and not trying to press anybody with his ideas, although he acts like a human from
time to time (ha,ha,ha....i remembered that donkey pic...). If you want to be heared, at least
try to act like hi does. Keep up a good manners and you are welcome!
Let me tell you something out of this dispute....
I do beleive that there is some way to detect remote object on some distance in some depth...
I also beleive that there are people which have very developed mental capabillity to "fell"
something, even, in most cases if they can't explain exact what. Also there are a small
number of people who developed and trained even more their natural, borned with, capabilities
and can "fell" and "see" almost exact situation on the remoted sight. Also there is a very
small number of people who can predict the future or see in the past, etc.etc.
History is full with such primers....But this is supposed to be a technical forum, with
very exact science-supported facts. If somebody founded a coin in 2m depth with some LRL toy or
even with mineoro, trust me he could find the same coin even if he holded a simple piece of
wire in his hand. That coin is not credit of mineoro or any other nonsence device, that coin
is a merit of natural skills of a person, himself !
That's why i am pissed off, people are confused. They are pushed to waste $xxx 000 on some
rubish and fill somebody's pockets, and stay unawared of their skills, but strongly beleive
in fraud they bought. Occasionally they find some coin or ring and even more hardly beleive
in that nonsence device and nobody in this world can persuade them, any more in adversely !!!
That is naked truth ! If you want to prospect as LRL'st, do not waste your money. Go outdoor
and practice,improve your skills with some wire or some homemade odd....
Mineoro manufacturers noticed that feature of human mind, and got the idea how to make a lot
of money for nothing! Like many others through history so far....
This is my explanation on that phenomena, and that i am trying to "push" here in everybody's
mind.
About posted picture, well i knew that it will **** off some people here. It was intended to
do, although it was just a joke...

Just read this one more time:
"This whole subject is an excellent example of a phenomenon known as pathological science.
Believers offer fantastic theories that are contrary to experience, and meet any criticism
with ad hoc excuses. Such theories can easily be spotted as pathological, when only the
believers can reproduce the results, and critics continually fail to duplicate the experiment.
This does not mean that anybody is being purposely dishonest, but simply that people are tricked
into believing false results by a lack of understanding. There are many published cases over
the years that have attracted a great deal of attention, and sometimes many hundreds of papers
have been published supporting the results. Some even lasted as long as 20 years before it was
accepted that the results were caused by subjective effects, wishful thinking, or threshold
interactions.
Self-deception is a process by which we deceive ourselves into accepting something as true,
when in fact it is based on a false idea. This is why scientists insist on clearly defined and
controlled double-blind, randomized and repeatable tests. This is the only way to negate the
wonderful ability of human beings to deceive themselves into believing things that are not true.
"Our capacity for self-deception has no known limits." - Michael Novak
QIAOZHI
Nobody could write that better!
At the end...Beleive what ever you want to beleive, nobody can forbid that to you....
But do not talk about it if you do not have any material proof....In that case you might
easy became a victim of some "unsalted" joke....(see above)...
All your(LRL'sts) proofs ends on retorics so far.....
Bye,bye......

michael

05-12-2006, 01:46 PM

Michael, you can phone me and i'll tell you even more fantastic story about my finds.
Please share all of us in your fantastic excavations ( definitely be evident)
"Toys", you said !!?? Those toys are only devices with wich you can find at least anything!... This is only one thread in this forum, why do not you visit other threads and read at least something else than lrl.
I have a powerful PI MD ;detects a 40 cm x 40 cm plate complete buried at 3 meters but had no success more than a jar full of silver powder (by help LRL + PI). And have field experiences with pulse star and Lorenz Deep max. many times they detect some stones which are not hot rock. And sometimes some kind of soils. The MDs like as whit's and Garret don't deserve to be discussed. We own Future Rover C but it is not satisfier as well. I read all of the threads and have experienced most of your founds by my flesh to bone. But the most important thing in treasure hunting world ( I name it sport and art) is scan speed the feature that every conventional metal detector is deprived of. We need a device be able to scan a vast and large area at the least time.
What do you have to introduce here that we haven't experienced? Exactly nothing.
But there is one thing I haven't had chance for test ;mineoro. And am desired to do it
Then I appreciate every note about it. have you personally done it MR. Terrestrial!
From your courtesy ( as name us martian) we can judge about your statements accuracy.
Besides, the main contribution here is to stop naive people to waste money on trash! To explain to the people what is fraud and what is not. I have full right to claim my claims according to my experience, even to uncover and spitt on charlatans and mountebanks here.....Some of them are so agressive in "pushing" wrong ideas and lies here that it corrupt the whole concept of this excell forum.
It will be appreciated at any time and god like these kind of people.I say seriously; don;t deprive us of your favors.
There are other forums on the .net, just for the lrl'sts. Why do you people havesuch strong need to come here and spoil everything.

Thank you, we didn't know it, really???
I think here is the remote sensing thread not pertaining to toy metal detectors. Then you are spoiling here by injecting your poisons and disquiet mindswithout any useful explanation.You trespass here , insult and do have claim upon us?
Your tone inspire you are associated with metal detector corporation that has sensed danger from LRLs producers unless write rational and logical based on your experiences.
I emphasize ; I am not LRLs proponent. I just look for fact.
have you personally tested mineoro? If yes, which model, and what was results?
If you know any special matter ,disclose it. you will make me and others pleasured.
do beleive that there is some way to detect remote object on some distance in some depth...I also beleive that there are people which have very developed mental capabillity to "fell" something, even, in most cases if they can't explain exact what. Also there are a small number of people who developed and trained even more their natural, borned with, capabilities and can "fell" and "see" almost exact situation on the remoted sight. Also there is a very small number of people who can predict the future or see in the past, etc.etc.
it's completely right and not a new thing for us in middle east. I personally have passed many times with them and have experienced their ability. I believe in metaphysic much more than you. For this reason believe in some kind of science which is supreme of ordinary detection science(of course will be casted through a device) http://thunting.com/geotech/forums/images/icons/icon12.gif

Esteban

05-12-2006, 04:18 PM

Maybe, MD manufacturer.

Persons of the team involved in electronic long range metal detector for gold and silver who visit USA in the 80s refers me that they found a silver clock in the back part of Garrett's property in Texas, near a stream, in presence of the Garretts.

What kind of object they found with UGLY electronic long range MD in Garrett's property?

Coincidence?: A silver clock dedicated to Pat Garrett in 1902! And Garrett's manufacturer haven't family relationship with Pat Garrett.

This was at depth wich a conventional MD can't detect it.

Coincidence 2?: Garrett Metal Detectors, 1881 W. State St., Garland, TX

1881 (July) is the same year that Pat Garrett killed the famous outlaw Billy the Kid!

The clock was dedicated by a town for Pat Garrett for his services. Also, Pat Garret served as sheriff of Dona (DoÃ±a) Ana County, New Mexico. I suspect this was the town of the dedicatory.

Hope the major people who visit this forum know who was sheriff Pat Garrett.

Also, ask how the team detect all targets like silver, gold and the big copper plate at high depth Garrett have for to probe two boxes.

Ask Mr. Garrett â€”no meâ€” about the real fact of long range MD ONLY FOR GOOD CONDUCTIVE METALS.

Leave behind you the prejudices and accept the real fact. Many persons in this forum are shooting in any direction, no as Pat Garrett.

Investigate and later discuss.

The next days I'll sending more photos in Texas (80s).

Esteban

05-13-2006, 12:12 AM

Mr. John Baldwin, British, sustain a coin. Miguel MontanÃ*a Grinok (my cousin) has in the hand a radiofrequency long range metal detector. This never detect bronze or copper in longitudinal form, only if this copper or bronze object is round like coin!!! Of course, yes very big copper or bronze objects, any form. Near for bronze and copper round forms, long distance for silver and gold, any form. Silver or gold round form, better!

In the corner, in red circle, the year. The car plate is of Texas.

Sorry for the unbelievers, no Cheeta, no Tarzan here, no "ugly persons", no Martians, no spirits, no ghost, no ancient echoes, no halo, no "Oye cÃ³mo va" (Santana's song), no pseudo-science, only science and "blondie persons" who celebrates one of the more 1,000 finds in the few days in USA.

Salute!!!

Dell Winders

05-13-2006, 01:02 AM

If my memory serves me correctly, I think I know the Texan in the photo as being from from Grapevine,Texas, and at least part of the story of the instrument's use in the U.S. Dell

robert

05-13-2006, 01:50 AM

"...The MDs like as whit's and Garret don't deserve to be discussed..."
(White's.. man...and Garrett !!!)

Now i am sure that you are martian !!! You must know some secret we others do not!
I am having GTI2500 for over the 4 years,also Eagle IIic for over the 12 years.....
now after reading your judgement about them i feel very sad....i am thinking to
sell them....cose they don't deserve to be discussed....and all those Au,Ag and Cu
old roman coins(over 3500 pieces) i have been found these years WITH tHEM i would consider
as my dream or desert "fatamorgana"!!!

"We own Future Rover C but it is not satisfier as well"

At least on this i can agree with you....although WE own Voyager 2005 extreme and it
sucks....so far!

"I read all of the threads and have experienced most of your founds by my flesh to bone"

I do not think so, after reading your claims! If that so, than you are very rich man...

"We need a device be able to scan a vast and large area at the least time."

Only if you are in a big hurry !!! I do consider this matter as a hobby not as a rally!

"What do you have to introduce here that we haven't experienced? Exactly nothing"

Ha,ha,ha....do not be such antediluvian.Nobody would talk with you any more, with that
kind of attitude...besides,if you are such expirienced, than,what the hell, are you
doing here!!!???Why asking so many questions!??

"But there is one thing I haven't had chance for test ;mineoro. And am desired to do it"

Fine by me.Go and buy it! I salute to that.You deserve it 100%...(oye,oye !!!)

"You trespass here , insult and do have claim upon us?"
Upon you !? Never! Upon mineoro and other mountebanks....always!!!!
Truth is insulting you!? O.K. from now on, no more truth here!

"Your tone inspire you are associated with metal detector corporation that has sensed
danger from LRLs producers unless write rational and logical based on your experiences."

Ha,ha,ha....no such corporation(that sensed danger from LRL)....from the oder hand i am
associated with a few metal detector manufacturers for lifetime, simply it is my choice.

"I emphasize ; I am not LRLs proponent. I just look for fact."

Me too.But i am ready to express my attitude free, with no scrupule,no matter what other
people thinking.Facts you not gonna find in LRL retorics.

"have you personally tested mineoro? If yes, which model, and what was results?
If you know any special matter ,disclose it. you will make me and others pleasured"

Yes.FG78.I...it sucks!It is scum,trash,fraud,toy.Is this enough to you?I think that there is
no need for me to bug you with details... It's "beeping" from time to time in all
directions, no matter if there is any metal or not.It was tested for over the 2 months in
all posiblle conditions and... nothing. After that it was returned to dork who spent money on
it !!!
Carl did nice report here, you just have to read it.
No need for me to write another simillar report.I made some claims in my earlier posts,for
those who know to read it was enough! If i have to repeat everything, every week, again and
again.....well, than i am not gonna waste my time any more.Just buy some Mineoro and have
your own,personal experience.You deserve it for sure!

"I believe in metaphysic much more than you."
WHAT'S MAKE YOU THINK THAT I AM !!!??? I do not beleive in metaphysic at all!
I am the greatest skeptic on the world!
Good bye Michael! The very best regards!
.................................................. ...................................

Esteban...hi !
Yor story is nice. You are fair player, i do not have to check any of those you posted.
I am absolutelly sure that you are true beleiver in everything you said!
But it does not show that Garrett metal detectors are bad...It has nothing to do with
any of Garrett metal detector at all!
Pat Garrett was not fair player.He was scum.He killed Billy the Kid from the back,by night!
If you are interested on coincedences than you may find a millions of them on the .net .
Besides, any body who is prospecting with some LRL toy is meeting coincedences from time to
time (although not very often...ha,ha,ha).
best regards to you....

.................................................. .....................................
Now, generally...for all...

People, think what ever you want to think.If you have doubts about my claims here,then
the best way is to have your own experience. If you are expecting some sweet fairy tales
than you are on wrong place. When somebody claim that LRL is trash, you get angry on him,
but from the other hand you do not want to spend your own money,buy some LRL device and
test it.You are expecting somebody else to do that for you and to report you just good
news.Grow up !
I was interested in many things. I spent a lot of money on devices. I do have over the
11-12 devices now, at home.(Just look at Carl's collection here....what do you think: how
much money he spend so far? Try to respect that and his posts....think about that!) I have
found many coins,relics and other stuff during last 15 years. I earn a lot of money selling
that founds. That is the only philosophy i know.
If you want something, you have to pay for it. Here, on this excell forum you can have
much informations for free. If you are not respecting that fact than you deserve to
became another victim of fraud.Nobody pushing me or any body else here to give advices
and informations free.It is only a good will.
best regards and much finds !!!

P.S.
No more blah,blah from me here....next time only jokes and pics on charlatans,frauds and
dorks account...
....until administrator excommunicate me from here...(well...that's life...)

Esteban

05-13-2006, 02:06 AM

Garrett, White's, Fisher, Minelab, Tesoro and all famous brand are good detectors, the point is that this radiofrequency type machine detects at depth that conventional MD can't detect...

Also I have White's, Garrett, Fisher and another good detectors.

*********

Dell: I'll investigate the location, but I'm semi-shure was in Galveston.

J_Player

05-13-2006, 05:47 AM

I read these posts, and I agree that maybe these LRL detectors can work. Also, Robert has made statements that do not add anything of value to this thread except one thing. He says he does not believe the LRL will work and it is a fraud. I see no proof behind what Robert says. It sounds like he is speaking from his own personal experience that he did not find treasure with a LRL machine.

But I have to say one thing in defense of the position that Robert established. So far, I have found NOBODY on this earth who is willing to demonstrate a Mineoro machine locating treasure, or any other LRL machine finding treasure. NOBODY on earth! If Mineoro can find treasure, then why won't anybody demonstrate it working? All I hear is stories of how it found treasure in the past. Why not show it find treasure NOW so the non-believers can see with their own eyes? Are the non-believers are right? Is it true that nobody on earth will show the Mineoro find treasure because the Mineoro does not really work and is a fraud? Is anybody willing to show us a Mineoro machine work so we can see?

Dell Winders

05-13-2006, 05:57 AM

The location could be anywhere, I don't know.I was just commenting that I believe I have known, and treasure hunted with two persons in the photo. If my memory is correct the person in the hat is Virgil Williams, who lived in Grapevine, Texas at the time. Dell

Dell Winders

05-13-2006, 07:07 AM

Yesterday I talked to phone with a PDC 210 Owner he said had found many small targets not very deep but for every deep detection encountered to empety holes he thought this device is only for shallow targets, but I think it's pinpointing for deep targets has problem.
some of them he had found; 1 gold coin at 30 cm, 5 gold coin at 70 cm and 3 golden earing at 150 cm
depth. what's the truth???

Michael, in my experience, Frequency Discriminators, and so called LRL, DOES NOT detect, or locate a physical target. This is one of the mis-conceptions promoted in ignorance and mis-leading advertising, which serves as fuel for the Skeptic cult agenda. For the pretenders, and scientific wannabe's, I would suggest viewing Remote sensing Frequency Discrimination with a different perspective if you wish to understand the concept.

These types of locators detect the emenating "Field" that concentrates around a target, and it is the "Field" which is detected at, or above the surface of the ground. NOT the physical target.

For a number of geological reasons the "Field" of a target may never reach the surface, or even near surface where it can be detected in this manner, whether you are metering the "Field" electronically, or with a simple pair of Dowsing Rods.

In addition, a detectable target "Field" DOES NOT necessarily rise (our perspective) vertically straight up from the target. Quite often the "Field" will rise at an angle. Making a location at the surface of the ground DOES NOT MEAN a target is buried directly below. According to the depth of the physical target, and the angle of the rising "Field" the surface location can be many feet away from the actual target. There are excavation proceedures I use to pinpoint the physical target.

I hope this helps to point a direction for your R&D.

I won't be posting much for awhile. I have been down with the flu for a month and behind on orders.

Robert & Jim, You appear to be among the folks that believe they already know everything there is to know about Earth Science and Physics, so I apologize if my rhetoric is boring to you. But, ceartainly you are intelligent enough to understand that "WHAT HAS ALREADY BEEN DONE, CAN BE DONE". Dell

michael

05-13-2006, 08:51 AM

Michael, in my experience, Frequency Discriminators, and so called LRL, DOES NOT detect, or locate a physical target...
These types of locators detect the emenating "Field" that concentrates around a target, and it is the "Field" which is detected at, or above the surface of the ground. NOT the physical target.
Hi dear Dell. nice to see your post again and am happy. pray to god bless you and return your health soon. yes, we oblige you for these information and datas.
Dear Esteban thank you for your statements and attachment. your and dell answers was irrecusable. please continue to enclose these documents.

Now i am sure that you are martian !!! You must know some secret we others do not!
think you can only humiliate others.
I am having GTI2500 for over the 4 years,also Eagle IIic for over the 12 years.....!
I am sure are not better than Pulse starII or Lorenze deepmax X3.
oh, by the way I forgot, you search for little things like as a semi-cion, etc, but in middle east we search for large treasures (like as 3 jar full of coins) in great depth. then you are right garrett arnd white's are the best there for you.http://thunting.com/geotech/forums/images/icons/icon12.gif
if you are such expirienced, than,what the hell, are you
doing here!!!???Why asking so many questions!??
this is my question from you.http://thunting.com/geotech/forums/images/icons/icon12.gif I am telling the conventional detectors are not satisfiable for our purposes.
Yes.FG78.I...it sucks!It is scum,trash,fraud,toy.Is this enough to you?I think that there is no need for me to bug you with details... It's "beeping" from time to time in all directions, no matter if there is any metal or not.It was tested for over the 2 months in all posiblle conditions and... nothing. After that it was returned to dork who spent money on
1- I think it's a bouncer. as I know (of course based on Hung statement) their
completed Fg78 will be released and delivered after may 15th.
How can rely on your claims??? hum??http://thunting.com/geotech/forums/images/icons/icon5.gifhttp://thunting.com/geotech/forums/images/icons/icon4.gif
2- You are the man names scum, martian,...who don't coincid their ideas with you. this is all thing you have present. every rational spectism is appreciated
not insulting others.
WHAT'S MAKE YOU THINK THAT I AM !!!??? I do not beleive in metaphysic at all! I am the greatest skeptic on the world!
Oh good. Now I received all my answers from you. then you deserve to work all of your life only with conventional metal detectors. you are like the company built the taitanic ship and for advertisement wrote on it; "Even god can't drown this ship." we have a slang here : "the best answer for ignoramus is silence"

michael

05-13-2006, 11:01 AM

yes, we oblige you for these information and datas.
Excuse me dell I correct; we have been obliged to you....

Esteban

05-13-2006, 07:01 PM

Qiaozhi

05-13-2006, 11:09 PM

Esteban

05-14-2006, 12:29 AM

robert

05-14-2006, 02:14 AM

:confused:
MIchael...i already said to you good bye!? Didn't I???
Your tone is provoking me more and more.......
But i am not gonna answer to your nonsences any more...
All i had to tell you i already said.Nothing more.
Just give up of mentioning my name any more here or
anywhere else.
Otherwise do not appeal on my style of talking or
naming....
All right...i didn't contribute here with my posts...
what is your contribution here !? Provoking me and
other non-beleivers !?
Why i just had to peak you to argue with!?
Why i did not peak Dell or Esteban or somebody else?
Compare your style of talking here with their style
and you'll see a big difference.
All started with that unfortunate picture i posted.
It was a joke..."unsalted" joke on Mineoro's account
but not on your account. Who are you? Mineoro's
advocate? I did not judge you and your attitude from
the begining of my posts.You started to judge me and
provoked me to answer....But now is time to stop.
If you continue, you'll get no answer any more.
Best regards to Dell,Esteban and J Player.Even if i
do not agree with you people, i am respecting your
opinions and attitude....

michael

05-14-2006, 08:23 AM

Robert!
With complete respect and courtesy;
I wrote before I never knew mineoros nor know them nor gotten acquainted and I am not their proponent I am really in Middle East.
why should I have provoked or defied you??!! I am not mad.
I said I am only searching for facts and really respect to logical skeptics.
but you first started ridiculing, sophisticating and riling the situation and at last humiliating others.
Maybe my english is not good, but I respect to all of the people
and love them, in case all are one god creatures.
I am not claimant or a theorisian , just ask you let here be a smooth place for exchanging information at least user people like as me benefit.
I beleive in one thing; questioning is not hideous, to be ignorant is hideous.
Up to now based on experiences (in Middle East) not only me, but also other treasure searchers, powerful MDs and LRLs are necessary for treasure hunting. here are so many guys have succeeded by combination LRLs + MDs, but because of some limitations we look for better instruments. from this can't conclude LRLs don't work or are junk.
At last I will be as well as glad this jejune dispute be stopped.

Dear Esteban. Thank you thank you for these encouraging enclosures.
Please write a little about detection details; distance, depth, mass of objects.
the ecxact device (if have model).
Please continue more documents enclosure. If you publish the book Iâ€™m the First one to order it.

J_Player

05-14-2006, 10:42 AM

Esteban...You ask "what kind proof do I want? I have been telling you, but you don't hear. Here is what I want:

I want to see Mineoro machine find gold in front of my eyes, same as all other metal detectors do. simple, easy.

I do NOT want photo from 1959 that somebody says is gold from Mineoro. I do not want story about Mineoro finding gold some long time ago. I want to see with my eyes Mineoro find gold NOW. Simple, easy.

Here is my challenge to you: You tell me time and place in California area where you live to come and meet with you. Then you show me area 1 hector where I will bury 1-oz gold coin. Then you use Mineoro machine to find gold coin that I buried. Simple, easy. I come to you, you do no traveling and you do no work except to take out Mineoro machine and find gold coin in 1 hector.

Story about Mineoro find gold 20 years ago is no good. Watch Mineoro find gold today is good. Simple, easy. For my part, I will show real gold coin 1 oz troy weight (see picture below taken today, not 1979 story about gold coin). I will bring same gold coin for u to see and test for real gold. Then I bury this coin for you to find with Mineoro machine of your favorite choice. This will be absolute proof whether Mineoro is real machine for finding gold , or is fake fraud to steal money form buyer of LRL.

Remeber: I will come to you. You do not need to leave home except to show me 1 hector area to bury coin. Can you prove that Mineoro will find gold same as my White's Surfmaster PI Pro can find coin? Or is this just more "talk about fake LRL" that cannot find gold, and is only good for 1979 stories?

Carl-NC

05-14-2006, 06:57 PM

JP,

The US rep for Mineoro, Kurt Kluey, lives in Vista, CA, between LA & San Diego. Why not contact him for a demo? Try your gold-coin-in-a-field test, or just go to the local beaches and see how many gold rings you can dig up in a couple of hours. Should be a cinch...

- Carl

Dell Winders

05-14-2006, 08:48 PM

Qiaozhi

05-14-2006, 09:02 PM

I post in another thread, yesterday, the parts of the radiofrequency gold-silver detector under the title: "Exactly as conventional MD". The search head is a coil, all the detector is homemade, the plastic search head like "air styler" was used for photographic laboratory. Is a good housing because was easy to build in it, but the variations in models is big.

Consist in two parts: the search head, this is a coil with oscillator, linked by a shielded cable, and a aluminium box with antenna sustained by the neck, in this model. Transmitter-receiver like a radar.

I have impressive quantities of photos, my idea is to put in a book.

If can found a gold chain, can found a treasure. You need an only experience for to convert in phanatic!

Here you can see better:
Hi Esteban,
I have seen the photo of the detector you posted on another thread, but it only shows the external features and controls. Also, I thought the housing looked like a hair dryer. Now I know why. http://thunting.com/geotech/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif

Can you post the schematic? I am sure many people here would like to build this detector to see if it can find treasure for them, as well as for you and your cousin. At least this is a homemade design that you claim works ok, and not a (not to be named here) company that is trying to make money and charging many thousands of dollars.

Qiaozhi

05-14-2006, 09:30 PM

Contrary to the other suggestions, I would suggest that you save your time & gas money unless you are prepared to stay and devote a week of your time testing the Mineoro.

Unfortunately, the Mineoro, will only work when there is a suffecient Strength of Field of the target. The operator instructions say the Mineoro does not work when the Sun is in it's position between 11 AM and 1 PM.
That is not necessarily true. Interference can happen at any time night or day, and last for any length of time. I don't know of any way of predicting in advance when, or where this will occur. This is also true of all MFD, LRL, and Physical Dowsing.

The expense of travelling long distances for a weekend Treasure hunt with over expectations of recovery, using any of these methods of locating is neither practical, or logical thinking. Dell
Regardless of whether you (like me) are a skeptic, where LRLs and dowsing are concerned, or a firm believer (like Dell), the sheer unpredictability of these devices must make them very difficult and frustrating to use in practise. How can you trust the results of a device that fails to work between 11 AM and 1 PM (perhaps stop for a long lunch break? :) ), and is unreliable at other (unknown) times of the day. In fact, according to Dell, it could quite likely be a complete waste of a weekend, and may even require as long as one week to get good results. Quite often I've seen regular metal detectorists go home after only two or three hours of searching if they haven't found anything worth finding. These are (of course) the impatient ones, and very often silver and gold coins have been unearthed many hours after they left the site. How could these people possibly cope with the unpredictability of an LRL?
Carl has dismembered many of these so-called LRLs and found them to be dubious in nature, and many may even be intentionally fraudulent. :(
This is why I'm interested in seeing the schematic of Esteban's device, as this is homemade and is not for commercial gain. Ivconic's negative ion detector is interesting, but he has never claimed that it can detect gold - just that "it does something".

Esteban

05-14-2006, 09:53 PM

Hi, with all the possible fair-play!

J.Player: Justly the pics I post are no part of Mineoro history, nothing to do with technical aspects of Mineoro. I repeat: There are another kind of detector. Only I'm defending another kind of principle for MD.

But I know two models of Mineoro detects, the PDC 205 and the PDC 210. Charged clouds -possible rain- make impossible to use the both. Another little deffect is the difficulty to find the exact point where is buried the target. Now, I'm trying the 2006, this is very stable.

Michael: thanks very much. Need more photos, in special the pics with Mr. John Baldwin, who enjoy this history since 1963-64 to 1986 and collect thousands pieces of gold and silver.

Robert: thanks. We want your participation in this tournament. Respect the FG, I think you must adjust no in very high sensibility, the necessary for to obtain stability. Adjust quiet and move the machine slowly to earth and sky. If you obtain falses in sky or earth positions, retouch the adjustments. All the adjustments make slowly at the exact workable point you find. So, walk with it and search. If you found a point where are insistent the beeps, then you sure you find a target. Search in shinny days, low humidty in air.

Carl: ear that Mineoro only detect targets long time buried, several years. Do the Mineoro's dealer collected testimonials?

Qiaozhi: I'm not the constructor. The person who built it MAYBE design one for my personal use. He dissambled all the models to prevent copy. But during the "Gold Age" (for us) we found many items. I assure you: we collect items like rice! Only precious things and coins.

Dell: yes, is Mr. Williams. Williams and many persons was involved in two trips to USA. No treasures found, yes infinity items. There are many persons in Texas who remember this amazing adventure. They are the witnesses. Ask the witnesses about the accuracy of this radiofrequency - type radar machine.

The both extremes _LRL rod users and classical detectorist_ only the first day the team arrived dissapoint the machine. So, Miguel present a challenge: Under the charge of the looser a complete barbecue. Miguel found a target in the patio of one of them, and at the night the non-believers cooking the meat and various kinds of chorizos and another anti-health foods!

Salute populi, detectoturi te salutant!

Esteban

05-14-2006, 10:03 PM

Found with electronic LRL. Include eyes lenses (gold platted).

Carl-NC

05-14-2006, 10:22 PM

Unfortunately, the Mineoro, will only work when there is a suffecient Strength of Field of the target. The operator instructions say the Mineoro does not work when the Sun is in it's position between 11 AM and 1 PM.

From the Mineoro web site:

They detect during the day and at night. 24 hours.
Atmospheric discharge does not interfere with the detection (nor rays).
Electric discharge , EMI (electro magnetic impulse) do not interfere.
They detect at night and during the day with humidity up to 80%.
Model FG78 - with humiditiy similar or less than 55% - detects gold outside the earth.
All models FG78 and DC2007 detect with, from 10% to 80% humidity.
They detect with ionic/electrostatic fields similar or bigger than > 25%.
Ionic/electrostatic field less than < 25%, charge the classifier with electrostatic energy.
Also, the FG78 is advertised as being gold-only, with the ability to locate fresh gold. Sounds like testing this device should be simple and quick, not much room left for excuses.

Interference can happen at any time night or day, and last for any length of time. This is also true of all MFD, LRL, and Physical Dowsing.

Hmmmm.... almost sounds like LRL results are... completely random! ;)

- Carl

Qiaozhi

05-14-2006, 10:53 PM

I'm not the constructor. The person who built it MAYBE design one for my personal use. He dissambled all the models to prevent copy. But during the "Gold Age" (for us) we found many items. I assure you: we collect items like rice! Only precious things and coins.
Does this mean that you do not have this detector any more?
If so, why did you dispose of a device that can detect so many interesting and valuable items?
It is a pity that you do not have the schematic. http://thunting.com/geotech/forums/images/smilies/frown.gif

Dell Winders

05-14-2006, 11:18 PM

Regardless of whether you (like me) are a skeptic, where LRLs and dowsing are concerned, or a firm believer (like Dell), the sheer unpredictability of these devices must make them very difficult and frustrating to use in practise.

You are right. When LRL & Remote Sensing Frequency Discrimination are affected by intereference and I am trying to conduct an accurate survey it can be extremely frustrating. On the other hand when operating conditions are optimum the results astonish even hardened skeptics, including myself. (I still find it difficult to believe the multiple discrimination I'm experiencing with X-Scan, yet I can't deny that it is happening) It's not a matter of being a believer. They either work, or they don't work. Believing has nothing to do with it.

I don't use my products, or sell them for the purpose of locating near surface coins & Jewelry, and you may have some reason to be skeptical when they are advertised within that that scenario. That is not their intended use and metal detectors fill the hobbyist requirements quite well.

I use LRL's, Dowsing, & Frequency Discrimination as preliminary information gathering tools to help me isolate and evaluate deep, unknown, possible Treasure Troves that are beyond the depth penetration of conventional Metal detectors. If you aren't familiar with the problems and costs of Treasure Hunting for Deep buried Treasures then you have no reason to be Skeptical, or critical, or even dislike a concept that has made this possible.

Unless you can show a better, faster, more economical method to accompolish this, your skepticism, or criticism has no significance.

If my explaining the limitations and problems assosciated with these methods of locating offends you, then you are offended by honesty. I do build, use and sell my products and I can be proud of the fact that I have not received a single complaint from the customers I have built instruments for. They know and understand the products limitations, before they purchase.

You will find my URL listed in an article by James Randi, and photo's by Carl Moreland, in Vol.12, No.2, of Skeptic Magazine. If only Mr.Randi, would be as honest. (sigh) Dell

Esteban

05-14-2006, 11:23 PM

Qiaozhi:

Through the years, only interference on air sum, now celular phones and anothers. As this was a delicate radiofrequency devices, the interference of today make impossible to use it. But a new redesign is in the way.

This is the reason why I'm trying Mineoro today, since is not a radiofrequency device.

Please, I'm in your situation! Waiting the redesigned model!

robert

05-15-2006, 12:44 AM

:cool:
Whether i am gonna talk polite here,choose every word, or be rude as i am,in my private life
too, makes no differences in the main point and idea.Stuff like Mineoros products and other
LRL(very wrong choice of terms here)devices simply do not work the job supposed to do!
Dell's last post(with respect to Dell) shows very clear that mineoro device acts like
some "tribal quack"...You just have to fulfill neverending list of conditions to make it
work !? With any conventional type of md, whether Pi or IB or even BFO you always know
what to expect!I usually go on the location, switch it on, ground balance it, adjust maybe
some more "knobs" and start prospecting. If the location is good i am starting to dig and
collect items...in a few hours i do have full pockets with arrows,coins,rings etc.etc.
Simply as that! I repeated this procedure for over the 20 years with a great number of
conventional devices and always the same,easy,sweet hobby! Occasionally i collect some
rare item and gain a very good money on market for it. That's how i survived some years,
that's how i collected money to buy newer and better devices.But when tried something
simillar with rods,odds,UG12,Voyager 2005,FG78,Electroscope....and a few more disputable
products i founded nothing...zero...empty pockets....no money....wasted time,wasted nervs,
wasted fuel........everything wasted!!!
Somebody may post here even 10 ooo pics with coins,rings,gold items etc. but it means no
proofs at all to me. I do have to much finds here,at home.I can post here million pics with
my finds and claim that i founded them with a couple of rods or mineoro or with something
else.No point at all.
Esteban,do not undestand me wrong(like somebody else did).I am not "attacking" you....
No,not at all! I just want to explain to you that there is no such radio frequency in this
life, that it can penetrate in the ground !!!No such thing! I am electronic engineer, also
radio-amateur on some bands for over the 25 years.Trust me, i do know much about radio and
radio frequencies.NO RADIO FREQUENCY THAT PENETRATE IN TO GROUND !!! Remember that.
Frequencies bellow aprox.50 kHz can peneterate through some type of materials, but weak,
very weak. Famuous EMFAD UG12 is designed to collect some signals from remoted TX's and
according to that shifted,rephazed results to "make some picture" of situation in the
nearby ground.All works perfect in theory.But in practice,in real life, it is unusable
almost in 90% of cases....it shows just as a good intention and sweet dream, nothing else!
You mentioned some device and "radio freq" etc.etc. If that device works at least enything,
than, trust me, it does not use any radio frequency or any simillar concept....
WHen you hear somebody mentioned some frequency, linked to some metal detector,it is just
a frequency of output oscillator...it is frequency of electromagnetic field around search
coil.That frequency does not penetrate anywhere. You have electrmagnetic field and as far
it outspread, it is "zone of detection". Of course, as far as you go out, toward the end of
that zone, sensibillity became more weak.Density of electrmagnetic field is quite proportional
of levity of finding some item around... This was very prune explanation of eventual
conection between "radio frequency" and detection generally....More "technical" aproach you
may find on the other threads here. This thread is about mineoro.So far nobody impart any
proof that mineoro devices worth something. On the other hand, there are a number of people
who tested mineoro devices(myself too) and reported absolute "bust" of it !!!
So at the begining of my posts here i was not able to argue to much about it.I used rude
way to deal with awared or unawared proponents of that nonsence devices like mineoro.
Now i see that it is a better aproach to try to talk more with peoples here who has good
will to talk, without any prejudices and if that does not help than, simply to give up!
And i am giving up slowly....This was just "blank" during my spare time, nothing else.
But still, i do have "reserve" in my mind, still you are looking to honest to lie about, so
i can even beleive you that you have found those finds with some lrl...and i can explain
to myself, and to you how? Here is how: you are borned with "extra sence" skills, you are
not awared of those skills.Your mind is "accepting" any apparatus you choose by case, and
when holding that apparatus in your hands,on the field, than your "skills" start to do a job!
The same thing with rods and odds....
My point was from the begining, why wasting money on expensive nonsence devices, while you
can do same thing with much cheaper apparatus, for example rods...
If you have "borned with" sences and skills, the result is gonna be same as with moneoro!
Dell, that's why your mineoro acts like "quack", Some day you are tired,other day you are
sick,another day you are just fine...and that day your mineoro is locating burried items
very easy....at the end of a day you are very happy man!
Who's gonna convince you and Esteban and others that mineoro sucks? Nobody!
Concerning this, i am very ready to beleive you people,that those finds you are posting
here,are real and that you are not frauds.That's why i never,and NEVER,claimed that any of you
are fraud at all. I only claimed, and i am gonna claim again,that major LRL manufacturers
are FRAUDS forever!Using already,very well known,phenomena of beautifull human mind, to earn
a lot of money and became rich!And this is not metaphysics! This is antrophology.
regards to all

Dell Winders

05-15-2006, 01:20 AM

Carl, I have only tested the Mineoro, under the operating conditions experienced here in Central Florida.

The same negative operating conditions may not have existed, experienced, or recognized, by the manufacturer in his part of the world. I don't know. I'm speaking from my own experience of using the Mineoro, in Central Florida conditions ONLY.

Hmmmm.... almost sounds like LRL results are... completely random!
By recognizing the fact that there are limitations makes it possible to conduct a field survey accordingly, or the manufacturer to build a better product with less limitations.

But, in reality, the results are no more random,or out of line with the amount of depth penetration that was lost by Whites, Garrett and Fisher metal detectors we tested in 1992 under fluxuating LRL operating conditions. Of course, I never saw you, the manufacturers, or engineers informing consumers of that problem? Dell

Dell Winders

05-15-2006, 02:20 AM

Hi Robert, I don't defend the advertising claims for the Mineoro, but I am at a loss as to how you believe it can be controlled with the mind. If that is true then it means I was mentally controlling the beeps made by the Mineoro with my mind while it was being operated by another party. I don't think I'm capable of that, but it would be nice if I could.

In the tests I conducted and in most of it's usage, I was not the operator. I purposely served as an observer so I could understand the problems a newbie might have in using the instrument. The owner wasn't having any results with the Mineoro when he got it. It beeped everywhere. Now that he understands the problem which I have explained here he tunes and uses it accordingly. I am going to see about getting him a magnetic "field" meter so he can check the meter to know when the Mineoro, will work, and when it won't.

I don't know anything about electronics, but years of trial and error has helped me recognize some of the field problems encountered in the use of electronic applications to the physicsof earth science. If you still have your locators, I'll be happy to help you understand their limitations and perhaps you can salvage some benefit from your investments. Dell

Esteban

05-15-2006, 02:33 AM

Use the terminology radiofrequency for to separate the oscillation frequency from a coil (and his harmonics) to the pure audio in a speaker. Also use the terminology radiofrequency for to designate the radio apparatus inside the box (yes, radio, can be AM, 25 Mhz or FM).

About radiofrequencies, how works GPR at high frequencies?

Esteban

05-15-2006, 04:58 AM

Troglograph is a apparatus for communications in caves.

detectoman

05-15-2006, 02:47 PM

hola esteban y demas
yo no soy esceptico a nada, y estoy seguro de que muchas estrategias hay para lograr diferentes propositos, y es que en efecto la electronica es una ciencia muy extensa, y que puede ser aplicada de muchas maneras, y estoy seguro de que pueden aun descubrirse muchos diferentes aparatos para detectar de mejor forma, y se que a veces el uso de diferentes detectores en conjunto se necesitan para ser usados para poder encontrar muy escondidas cosas en diferentes terrenos, yo he andado en compaÃ±ia de muy diversos amigos detectores, ellos usan tegnicas por demas extraÃ±as, pero ellos creen en ellas, y yo se que pudieran ser eficaces y que tienen amplios margenes de error, la solucion es ser experto en eso, y eso no es facil, cada terreno es especial, y diferentes estrategias pueden usarse, en el caso de los mineoro aunque nunca los he usado se que estan en camino de ser eficientes, y creo que deben tener tambien muchas limitaciones, y creo que es necesario un experto con experiencia en ellos para poder usarlos correctamente, creo que estos detectores mineoro , tambien precisan de ayuda en conjunto con otros detectores, y entiendo que estos detectores pudieran no funcionar en especiales condiciones de terreno o de clima, y que precisan de condiciones que los favorezcan, y creo que son artefactos que aun estan en proceso de eficacia, y que solo los que han tenido ya alguna experiencia en sus diseÃ±os anteriores pudieran obtener bastante utilidad de ellos, en verdad mi opinion no tiene mucha importancia pues nunca he usado un lrl o un mineoro pero estoy muy abierto a los logros de la invesigacion, creo que solo alguien con extrema paciencia puede usar eficazmente estos detectores, eso lo digo desde un punto de experiencia de alguien como yo que le gusta mucho la dinamica increible de la electronica
yo creo que se hace necesario un detector liviano que cumpla todas las ventajas de todos los detectores juntos, ya que es muy engorroso cargar en las expediciones con todo un arsenal de distintos detectores, y seria mejor solo llevar un versatil y compacto detector todo terreno del tamaÃ±o o forma del mineoro o aun mas pequeÃ±o, un detector que pueda ser usado aun entre la maleza o entre los riscos en parajes montaÃ±osos, se necesita un detector que resista a todo clima, y que no le afecte la lluvia y resista los golpes y el fuerte calentamiento del sol, yo opino que es necesario un detector que pueda ser enfocado a mediana distancia y que tambien pueda precisar el punto exacto enfocandolo hacia abajo, he visto que el mineoro precisa de una brujula y que es necesaria la orientacion de los polos de la tierra, para que este pueda ser influenciado en toda su capacidad, y esto es engorroso, y he oido de esteban que precisa de estarlo moviendo de arriba a abajo constantemente, esto tambien es dificultoso, imaginen como terminara la muÃ±eca de la mano con ese proceso constante, yo creo que los que defienden al mineoro deben de dar una pruba indudable de su eficacia, y ya que ellos conocen las condiciones ambientales para que este funcione a toda capacidad, que escogan tambien esta condicion neceasaria, y es que es necesaria la demostracion cierta, si el detector es eficiente puede facilmente ser demostrado , si no es que es aun un detector en proceso de perfeccionamiento y con muchas fallas, en el caso de que fueron encontradas estatuas de serpientes en egipto, a gran profundidad, esto solo es creible porque en egipto solo hay arena y es muy estable la estatica ambiental, y no hay intercepciones de electromagnetismos de minerales o metales o corrientes de agua ,como en un terreno de montaÃ±a o ciudad , creo que el mineoro precisa de muy especiales condiciones para su correcto funcionamiento, precisa de que haya especial estabilidad atsmosferica, yo creo que aun pudiera inventarse un mejor detector y que este no fuera tan impractico como uno que precisa de una computadora colgada al cuello para scaner, yo creo que un versatil detector que se maneje como una liviana pistola" seria lo optimo , este detector deberia ser muy resistente y eficiente, y creo que es posible su diseÃ±acion, y creo que el camino son las estrategias de la captacion de radiofrecuencias o bandas, de trasmisor y recepcion , algo parecido al sonar, creo que ese detector resolveria todas las dificultades que nos incomodan, creo que los detectores de platillo terminaran por quedar casi obsoletos,y solo aplicables en especiales usos , como dentro de un recobeco o cueva, y creo que solo se necesita un pequeÃ±o detector que detecte la frecuencia especial que emite un metal solido en desorden de acomodos humanos, y confinado a una hubicacion extraÃ±a, creo que tambien los metales pudieran ser encontrados con unas simples varillas en las manos, pero que eso precisaria de una enorme experiencia de parte del manipulador, y que esa estrategia tambien precisa de condiciones tanto del operador como de que no hay vientos que muevan esas rusticas varillas las cuales deberian de ser de especial aleacion, en ese caso se usa el efecto de palanca aplicado a los extremos de esas varillas, y las bandas de las corrientes magneticas, nada mas potente que las fuerzas de las facultades humanas, pero la electricidad o la electronica es una maravilla que puede ser manipulada en artefactos especiales muy estables en todas las condiciones de alli la importancia del avance de invencion de los aparatos detectores inmejorables

muchas maneras hay de llegar a un logro, pero no todas son las mejores
aplicar la mejor estrategia del momento es la solucion
el mejor detector de metales aun no esta inventado, siempre habra uno mejor.
todos tienen sus desventajas
el mejor detector es el que va acompaÃ±ado de la inteligencia

detectoman

Qiaozhi

05-15-2006, 08:59 PM

...and i can explain
to myself, and to you how? Here is how: you are borned with "extra sence" skills, you are
not awared of those skills.Your mind is "accepting" any apparatus you choose by case, and
when holding that apparatus in your hands,on the field, than your "skills" start to do a job!
The same thing with rods and odds....
My point was from the begining, why wasting money on expensive nonsence devices, while you
can do same thing with much cheaper apparatus, for example rods...
If you have "borned with" sences and skills, the result is gonna be same as with moneoro!
Personally I do not believe in ESP (extrasensory perception) either.
You just have to watch Derren Brown to understand how easily the human mind can be fooled and controlled by others - or even by yourself!
http://www.channel4.com/entertainment/tv/microsites/M/mindcontrol/mind_control/index.html
In particular, watch the Magic Doll - under Trick of the Mind.
Enjoy ;)

hung

05-16-2006, 02:58 PM

Wow.

So much posts since the last time I visited. Some very interesting and informative, some so amusing that made me laugh a lot..

However for me, it's quite impressive how the LRL skeptics keep insisting they don't work. I promised I wouldn't lose my time in that argument anymore. Just one thing to add. I do beleive there may be other working LRLs besides the Mineoros. But as far as conception and effectiveness, they are the best for me.

Esteban: Thanks for your info.Really nice to learn about the details of the Pat Garret's case. I already knew about this when Damasio told me upon the last time I visited him.
He said Alonso detected the watch with the prototype of the DCH 85. After the exact spot was pinpointed by the prototype detector, Garret (the detectorist) ran his best model Garret over it. As expected, no beep at all. Then by the time that about 2 foot of ground had been dug, the Garret detector started to emit weak beeps. The watch was about 3 to 4 foot deep if memory does not fail me. Garret then grabbed the watch and started to run around his property yelling and laughing exactly as a child at Alonso and the others' amusement.
I also was told that Mel Fisher knew about the detector (not sure if he was present at that occasion) and invited Alonso and his group to participate the search for the so called 'Atocha's mother lode' the following week. Well , simply put he did locate the area where the treasure was. Fisher dismissed the group that day and a week later returned to the spot where he recovered the treasure. Not a single word to anybody about who truly had in fact locate the treasure! And not a single object was handed to Alonso and his group! Not even thanks was said! This was DISGUSTING!!
So disgusting that the british gentleman Mr. John Baldwin had a nervous breakdown and died!

***************
Relevant things to consider here.
The DCH 85 worked with almost 100% of ionic field intensity. Those days in US really had the right conditions for it to work luckily and fortunately.
The 'center & deep' acessory did not exist at that time. Thus he pinpointed the spot using triangulation.

Also Esteban, the pinpointing of target with the PDC 210 can actually be achieved for small objects. You simply use the center&deep. Have someone hold it in front of the PDC's antenna and when you move it on the ground the PDC will beep indicating the exact location.

JPlayer: In one of the last times I phoned Damasio, he told me that after the lauching of the FG78 which is taking all of his time, he plans to go personally to US for a public demonstration. If this does happen I will see if I could go with him to act as interpreter too.
I believe Mr. Kurt Kluey does not have the new models yet (DC 2007 and FG78) as they are on the verge of shipping.

Closing.
The PDC 205 and PDC 210 were great at their times and many treasures were found with it. Check the Iran's case which I reported here some time ago.
I said they 'were' because they are now far surpassed by the new DC and FG in terms of accuracy and detecting power.

I have a site already detected by the PDC 210 which is truly a jesuit valuable. I won't coment here how we got to this conclusion. The PDC 210 beeps continuously as if it was in front of a power transformer. We are setting up plans of recovery right now. The only reason I did not go yet is because I am waiting for the FG to come out just to check how it behaves there.

Curiosity killed the cat!

Esteban

05-16-2006, 03:56 PM

Hung, yes I know this history about M. Fisher and Garrett!!!

Regarding the center and depth, I use "my style": walk and over the target with the machine in 90Âº angle the beeps increases.

michael

05-16-2006, 08:17 PM

Hi Hung.
Nice to see your post here again. Thank you for your encouraging post like as Esteban's.
Please don't deprive us from your perceived notes and experiences.
it sounds Some people only believe in conventional MDs. OK, but here in Middle east people never become happy of coin shooting at surface and all of them have gotten bored, disappointed and hated of most of CMDs.
(even about the professional versions) they are thirsty for new generation detectors.
their eyes looking forward Your results which being collected .
We follow every note carefully. some people ask about them and I tell still is under survey. Your efforts will be appreciated.

robert

05-18-2006, 12:29 AM

:D
"..but I am at a loss as to how you believe it can be controlled with the mind.
If that is true then it means I was mentally controlling the beeps made by the
Mineoro with my mind while it was being operated by another party. I don't think
I'm capable of that, but it would be nice if I could."
I never said that.I would be very stupid to beleive in that.I assumed that it is a
sort of parallel process.While mineoro "beeps" randomly with no rule,your mind
"start thinking" it is "connected" and very random you start diging and occasionally
you find something.Very nice proof to my words is that funny video from mineoro,
where a 5-6 man "chanting" over some corn field.After a 30-40 minutes acting very
idiotic and diging a huge hole in the ground,finally one of them performed as he
found some small,gold chain or something simillar.The quality of a video is awfully
low, so i am not able to see clear what was the item!?
I was thinking to my self(while watching that video):"If i have to act like that,every
time i go on the field, and dig such enormous hole, every time on every "beep".....
well, the hell with mineoro...!!!"
But one more thing! Despite my claims, mineoro users still have found something!?
How can i explain that? Here's how:
During so many years of prospecting i have noticed something very interesting. There is
not even one sqare meter on this sad earth, where man did'nt put or lost something!
I've been visited so many terrains,everywhere i found something. With mineoro or
without it, if you start randomlly dig a huge holes everyehere, trust me, you gonna
find so much items, you wont beleive it !!
The meaning of metal detecting apparatus is to help a man not to waste to much time
and energy on locating and diging holes everywhere, but to easy locate item and as
less as possible to "labour" over it...Otherwise,why wasting money on them?

"About radiofrequencies, how works GPR at high frequencies?"
Friend you are lightly informed. Go at some GPR site and dig deep.

"Personally I do not believe in ESP (extrasensory perception) either."
I do not want to beleive in ESP too. I do not have any of those "skills".
But you may find everywhere examples that "something is going on"....
Of course there are a lot of examples of, like you said:
"...how easily the human mind can be fooled and controlled by others
- or even by yourself!"
I can agree with you on that too."Misty" stuff.Man can easy straggle in.
Dell is very smart and capable merchant. I salute to your aptitude Dell!
But your explanations shows that prospecting is not a "light" hobby but
very complicated "science" and prospector has to be a "lifetime" involved
in, worked with some lrl stuff.Things no needs if use of some convetional
metal detecting equipment.But anyway you show here that you are very intelligent
and a great retoric, also very conversant too. Compliments!
Although, i do not agree with you in more things than i can agree.

About latest Hung post....
Man oh man !? What are you talking about??? I never saw such big pile of lies
ever!!!! That Garret/Fisher story and that watch....Ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha !!!!!
Are you that naive to think that everybody here are so stupid to beleive in
it?!?
That story never happened ! Only in your heads...
I bet that all of you people (hung,michael,esteban,detectoman and whatever)
are coming from the same place.This is a public forum.When you registrating in
you may write any name or address,no body can check you anyway. So, you are
acting here,wasting space and time here,trying to promote lrl trash, esspecially
the biggest fraud ever - mineoro!
In manner to sell another device to some naive and stupid - dork!
This is a true story, one and only:
Last time i visited Alonso,i detected with my Jetco"Treasure Hawk" the watch
(Panco Villa's and Emillio Zappatas digital Sony watch) on 345 feet depth. After the
exact spot was pinpointed by the prototype detector, Alonso (the mineoro'ist)
ran his best model FG78 over it. As expected, no beep at all. Then by the time
that about 2 foot of ground had been dug, the FG78 started to emit weak "Oye's".
The watch was about 345 to 400 foot deep if memory does not fail me. Alonso then
grabbed the watch and started to run around his property yelling and laughing exactly
as a child, with "Oye,oye!!!" words,at mine and the others' amusement.
This is a true story! If you don't beleive me ask my dead grandma for it.By the way,
i have nothing better to do so i am here, wasting time,words and anoying everybody.
Besides, FG78 is already on market for over the 2 months here in Europe.It is
interesting that mineoro supplys european market first!!!I guess Dell didn't done
his homework good.About so many times quoted "middle east"....What's new there?
So many jars in the sand and none of coins!?There must be very rich population
there!?Only mineoro can solve that problem!
No,really, you people(except a few beleivers here) are so funny,that i am so
focused on your posts like on some mexican tv soap!Everything is so nice!
Just keep it that way!
forever yours(with a big vomit from your stories)....your one and only....
Alonso.....no sorry...Emillio....no sorry...Pancho....yes,it must be me, the
Pancho!!!

Esteban

05-18-2006, 01:43 AM

Do you visit the Remote Sensing forum for humillate the persons? Your personal decception no mean the inexistence of remote sensing instrument for precious metals. As I said, many persons never will see "la crema de la crema" â€”cream of the creamâ€” of the detection. The reality is superior than the fiction! The most incredible history sometimes is the true and the more credible, easy to understand for all, is the lie. A simple radiotechnician built the cream of cream in gold-silver detectors, because he believe that is possible. Sometimes excess of academicism is poison for new knowledges.

In the past or in the today present, remote sensing, lrl, etc., are reprobate words since they born. As you know, any remote sensing forum (or subforum) is localized near the "garage sales" place.

My friend, sea humilde y respete a otros si usted quiere ser respetado. NÃ£o generalize!

Want to clariffy that the RF instruments I post time to time with great effort and much investigations aren't Mineoro, except the DCH85 in hand of a US citizen owner with couple of oxidated coins he found.

If this place is for to discuss about remote sensing and, as I see, from the point of view of the majority don't exist remote sensing instruments, about what do you'll write here? So, don't understand why we are wasting our or your time here.

michael

05-18-2006, 12:41 PM

"...I bet that all of you people (hung,michael,esteban,detectoman and whatever) are coming from the same place."

oops. Again???? Do you think and judge on every thing like this?
It was my pleasure and honor if I would be their compatriot or pal. because of their honesty.
every time you write makes my mind and heart more steady to them and assures me about them.
It's good at least didn't add DELL to this list. If he was not obviously American you would do???
Oh and he is likewise highly honest even if the fact be possibly against himself and his benefit; approving mineoro. He is lover to this scale and to his work.
When I ordered one DDL to dell for my destination (U.A.E) he sent it without getting money Oh, DDL was in my hands whereas the money still was not paid. he never knew or had seen me. then he is not a merchant.

About so many times quoted "middle east"....What's new there?
So many jars in the sand and none of coins!? There must be very rich population there!? Only mineoro can solve that problem!
what do you know from here? When I saw the news of 3 jar full of coins wasn't astonished at all.
because before that had heard news of a greater found, a trove (6 tones=6000 KG gold) in Iran. of course not in sands or beaches 20 cm under ground!!! but this news never published. Why? because there treasure hunting is a serious matter for government and they even execute professional treasure hunters.
I did very efforts to know if they hunted it by a specific instrument, but didn't succeed. apparently was based on an ancient map. god knows better, but I am certain people there don't jingle and jangle for shooting a coin or even a pile of coins.
You never know maybe mineoro is the solution and if be approved as is advertised, they all will choose it.
for your information should be mentioned; yes, there are many peoples who are very very more rich than you can imagine.
previously I knew a team (by a mediate not from near) in Iran, they found about 4 fantastic treasures by omnitron + a PI MD. Now they are not in Iran, they migrated to Europe (Might be Spain).
"If there was not things, people would not tell about things"
Please don't run your personal equations about what you noway know.

Esteban

05-18-2006, 04:23 PM

forever yours(with a big vomit from your stories)....your one and only....
Alonso.....no sorry...Emillio....no sorry...Pancho....yes,it must be me, the
Pancho!!![/QUOTE]

Robert big vomit = muuuuuch vodka:D

hung

05-18-2006, 06:28 PM

:D
Besides, FG78 is already on market for over the 2 months here in Europe.It is
interesting that mineoro supplys european market first!!!

Would you please detail this claim?
The information I have is that the FG 78 will only start to ship next week after a delay caused by changing ICs and retesting them as covered here by me.
In fact your statement made me call a friend at Mineoro to confirm this info.
I was told that no FGs were sent to Europe anytime simply because they were not ready. Not even a prototype was used there AFAIK.

My guess is that you mistook it by the GDP 538 or GDM 428.
Cheers.

robert

05-18-2006, 10:09 PM

:o
"Do you visit the Remote Sensing forum for humillate the persons?"
Of course NOT !!!Only bad ideas.
"A simple radiotechnician built the cream of cream in gold-silver
detectors, because he believe that is possible."
Ahaa!!! Now you are talking! " ...because he believe that is possible...".
Do you understand now my claims about "skills".That "cream of cream" will
work only with its constructor and nobody else, like maybe mineoro, who knows!?
"My friend, sea humilde y respete a otros si usted quiere ser respetado. NÃ£o generalize!"
Well....if i start talking here on my language...what's gonna happen!? I do not
understand spanish or whatever it was....many times people here avoiding english...
why is that so!?
"...about what do you'll write here..."
About frauds, close connected with mineoro, on first place!(since this thread is named
as it is)
"It's good at least didn't add DELL to this list. If he was not obviously
American you would do???"
It has nothing to do with "americanism".Dell is very "awake" about his claims, which
you, other people are not!
"...what do you know from here?"
You only can imagine!Maybe more than you.....The rest is personal, i am not gonna
expose here..
"... did very efforts to know if they hunted it by a specific instrument,
but didn't succeed...."
Yes.It is specific instrument(s)...None of it LRL or mineoro. You may look on the
.net for more information. One of them you may find on "OYO Geometrics" site.No
effort at all, for me to tell you that!
"...Please don't run your personal equations about what you noway know."
Ha,ha,ha ! I never did it! Trust me.

"Robert big vomit = muuuuuch vodka"
Yes, it is truth! But not for me.(My name is not RObert anyway)...
I don't drink.It's only happen when reading
nonsence stories and fairy tales....

"My guess is that you mistook it by the GDP 538 or GDM 428."
I don't think so! Besides, who cares? They all the same! Non-working toys!
To cut this for good, i have idea: why don't you buy it and test? Than you
decide.
Bad things should be exposed for all to see! Frauds on the first place! This thread
is just supposed to do that! Not to collect more naives.As long as this mineoro
campaign runs on, that long, people like me would raise voices here! Do not expect
from me to recede.I do have my reasons not to.Be very carefully what to claim here!
Otherwise you'll face bad humor,jokes and a lot of critics! The same i do expect
for my claims if they are wrong.
Bye!

Qiaozhi

05-18-2006, 10:10 PM

I knew a team (by a mediate not from near) in Iran, they found about 4 fantastic treasures by omnitron + a PI MD.
This is just an observation - but I have noticed many times on this forum, whenever a treasure is claimed to have been found by an LRL, that (in most cases) there is also a conventional metal detector involved. For example, in the case quoted by michael above.

Qiaozhi

05-18-2006, 10:18 PM

"My friend, sea humilde y respete a otros si usted quiere ser respetado. NÃ£o generalize!" I do not understand spanish or whatever it was....
Yes, it's Spanish.
I believe it says "My friend, be humble and respect others if you want to be respected". But I've no idea what "NÃ£o generalize!" means in English, or any other language for that matter. :)

hung

05-18-2006, 10:58 PM

Yes, it's Spanish.
But I've no idea what "NÃ£o generalize!" means in English, or any other language for that matter. :)

It's portuguese. It means 'don't generalize' - 'don't become general'

This is just an observation - but I have noticed many times on this forum, whenever a treasure is claimed to have been found by an LRL, that (in most cases) there is also a conventional metal detector involved. For example, in the case quoted by michael above.

Not necessary.
I can't speak for other LRLs but in the case of Mineoro one will only want to use a regular MD if he loses the ionic field (real small object) and thus can't pinpont it.
Anyway this should be used as a last attempt due to a EM detector causes the field to vanish. Besides the fact a regular MD will go only a few inches. Totally useless for treasures which are several feet deep.

michael

05-19-2006, 09:01 AM

It has nothing to do with "americanism". Dell is very "awake" about his claims, which you, other people are not!.
Yes he is awake that a man like as you never can be awake of LRLing quiddity and technique; you claim know a lot about radio frequency " NO RADIO FREQUENCY THAT PENETRATE IN TO GROUND !!! Remember that.Frequencies bellow aprox.50 kHz can penetrate through some type of materials,â€¦" it shows your distinction about radio frequency is similar to about our origin, nationality and relationship!!! You even haven't undertaken labour for testing radio frequency penetration. If had doneâ€¦..
Do favor Mr. awake engineer and explain of any thing you are awake from. Ooohh . please not be again your dreams or personal equations and jokes; " I bet that all of you people (hung,michael,esteban,detectoman and whatever) are coming from the same placeâ€¦.."
If somebody be skeptic about LRLing by reading your concepts will believe in LRLing.

This is just an observation - but I have noticed many times on this forum, whenever a treasure is claimed to have been found by an LRL, that (in most cases) there is also a conventional metal detector involved. For example, in the case quoted by michael above.
Yes, I never denied PI MDs capability and I own one good , but they don't satisfy or convince us. we can deduce LRLing is a fact and has given it's result at least by MFDs. then why Mineoro shouldn't be working??.
I agree with LRLing up to this ; may be it not be enough for pinpointing , but can shorten the search time. About mineoro still have not any experience may be doesn't need to any pinpointer MD and it suffice for it by its own as is being claimed.
we are not here to humiliate each other, we are looking forward the truth. The truth can't be found in dusty & hazy space that some people make.
The information I have is that the FG 78 will only start to ship next week after a delay caused by changing ICs and retesting them as covered here by me. In fact your statement made me call a friend at Mineoro to confirm this info.
I was told that no FGs were sent to Europe anytime simply because they were not ready. Not even a prototype was used there AFAIK.
This demonstrates that Robert hasn't experienced non of the mineoro or even PI MDs
He only runs his personal equations continuously. maybe is hired by one of CMD producers to spoil the face of mineoro. The put picture of working by pulse star from him should be fake and a lie like as other his statements. Anyway regards to any witan skeptic not so obvious liars.

Qiaozhi

05-19-2006, 03:57 PM

It's portuguese. It means 'don't generalize' - 'don't become general'
Thanks. Portuguese must be similar to Spanish then? Many of the words seem to be the same. :)

Dell Winders

05-19-2006, 04:07 PM

Intellectual prejudice can be as damaging to progress as racial prejudice. Each of us can only speak honestly of what we have experienced personally. Beyond what we have experienced as fact is only heresay, conjecture, and opinion.

A negative view when it is provided as constructive criticism can be beneficial to progress. A positive view should not be devoid of experienced facts. As the saying goes opinions are like A. holes. Everyone has one. They are useful but not something that is appropriate to display in public.

In order to progress, it is prudent to quietly accept what others in the truth of their own experience have to say on this subject. Whether we believe what is said, or not, it is our individual right to mentally process the information provided on our own without intellectual criticism of anothers thought process.

It is an established fact that thousands of Treasure hunters have experienced beneficial rewards from the use of Remote Sensing Discrimination. I know some of them personally. It is also a fact that RSD has not lived up to the advertised expectations of tens of thousands of purchasers who have been victims of profiteering from mis-leading and false advertising, sometimes intentional and sometimes in the sellers ignorance.

The negative ratio of these generalized statistics do not show that RSD is not a viable concept. There are too many positives to be coincidence. It does however suggest the reasons for the negativity and that RSD is a viable concept still in primitive stages, that warrants further development. What has already been done by some, can also be done and improved on by others.

I hope everyone will accept the RSD concept in that context and continue with your own ideas for development and application. Thank you for your interest, input, and feed back to this thread. Dell

Esteban

05-19-2006, 06:17 PM

Qiaozhi: while you're building this, can learn some Portuguese!:)

http://www.mytempdir.com/676709

Qiaozhi

05-19-2006, 11:19 PM

Qiaozhi: while you're building this, can learn some Portuguese!:)

http://www.mytempdir.com/676709

Thanks! :)
This looks like a variation on the Kamil Kraus design. Have you built this? If so, how was the sensitivity? I built a similar circuit in the past and it was not very sensitive at all.
However, this one seems to be slightly different, as the timing resistor input (pin 8) is being driven by a current mirror. Perhaps this linearizes the response of the VCO?

robert

05-20-2006, 12:05 AM

:o
Michael...again!? Your nonsences continue! I do have a lot of criticism on LRL and
moneoro account...yes it is truth.But in all my posts i done some more than just
provoking.I do have for real a dozen md's.Also i do have a few lrl's.Also i checked/
tested a couple of mineoros.I do electronics for living,also prospecting in my spare
time.I do have a rich expirience wich is very rich comparing to some people also very
poor comparing to some other people.Let say I consider my knowledge somewhere in the
middle.All my posts are based on my own expirience, therefore i stand in front of it.
But you...you are here just to provoking and peaking.If you think that it is the best way
to "buy" some knowledge from the others, than you are on wrong track! By licking the a..
to some people here and same time to provoking me and other sceptics, you'll go nowhere!
"it shows your distinction about radio frequency is similar to about our origin,
nationality and relationship!!! You even haven't undertaken labour for testing radio
frequency penetration. If had doneâ€¦.. "
What do you know on that subject? O.K.show some knowledge here.Teach me some!I bet that
you do not know even what radio is!? DO you have any radio?Ha!
I think that your "origin,nationality and relationship" bugs you more than me, cose i do
not have problem with that.I never claimed anything on that subject. I do respect your
"origin,nationality and relationship" same as mine own, maybe more, cose it is in my
culture.I do not respect the nonsences and "knowledge" you showed here in all your posts.
So mentioning that you are just offending me much! It is very clear that we are
not on the same level, and we can not comunicate at all.Sorry, but this is last word for
you.Further i am gonna disregard all your posts and claims.This supposed to be a mineoro
thread not "michael vs robert" or "michael and robert spitting each other" thread.
" Portuguese must be similar to Spanish then..."
Of course! Qiaozhi it is evident and clear that all those people are coming from Brasil
where portuguese is official language.That's why i made that note:
"I bet that all of you people (hung,michael,esteban,detectoman and whatever)
are coming from the same placeâ€¦.."
I suspected that they are conected with the same interests.Also i suspected that they are
very involved in mineoro's money factory!That's why they are so agressive and pesty on that
subject.The main interest is to collect as much as possible more naives customers, nothing
else! No science, no knowledge, NO FACTS,NO PROOFS!!! Just empty retorics,mumble-jumble and
provoking everybody! I think the best way to deal with them is to disregard them and to
chat only with people who are ready for constuctive talking.
"It's good at least didn't add DELL to this list..."
Of course not.Dell is not in that "package". His posts shows much more than just an empy
retorics.At least he is doing something.Testing,experimenting,inventing,trying.. ..
I just can not disrespect his efforts.I just have to respect that kind of attitude.
Although i do have very bad experiences with that kind of apparatus. Once, a 15 years ago
i had some Omnitron. But it was German device not Dell's. It has very nice function generator
included in, also in the same box, frequency counter up to 100 kHz. Digital with 4 LED displays.
Also there are 4 rods included in and some other stuff.At the time, it was very expensive.
It costed some 14000 german marks in 1990.!!!(7000 euros would be today..)
The very same function generator(for nf measurements purposes, i used so many times when
repaired professional radio equipment,since it is my job for over the 15 years), so the very
same f.g. in the Conrad shop in Munchen,Germany at the same time, costed about 450-500 DEM !?
The rest of money was for those 4 rods,some cables and bag !!!??? Very prune manual,some
nonsence list of frequencies of materials and nothing else!?
O.K. at the time i was not "awaked" in lrl stuff much. I used that "Omnitron" on the field
many times, trying to locate some items with no success at all! The main concept was to
choose desiring frequency and switch on the function generator. Since 2 rods are plugged in
device by 2 cables and also stabed in the ground, i had to take another 2 rods and from
distance follow some "signal" trying to find echoed signal.Etc.etc. I guess no need for me
to go deep in details. You all know very well how is supposed to deal with that kind of
apparatus. Absolute nonsence! How anybody to expect that 5kHz(for example), sinusoidal,DC or
AC anyway, can penetrate so deep in the ground, reflect by some item and by 45dg angle show
on gnd surface, where you can "collect" it with other 2 rods !? The main principle is wrong.
It showed to me and to other people 15 years ago! Now, these days some people come here
and trying to tech me again!? Trying to convince me in some"new stuff". I do know that
there are also people who tryed this even much,much before me.
The simillar story is with elsectroscope devices,different rods,odds etc. Last couple years
some new "devices" shows on market.The very same story and functionallity with mineoro too!
But the main point is, that this is not only my expirience(in that case i would consider myself
as a unique wretch), but this is also expirience of so many other people too!
"Intellectual prejudice can be as damaging to progress as racial prejudice."
I agree! But i am speaking of expiriences "in vivo" not hypothetical.
"....They are useful but not something that is appropriate to display in public."
Sometimes you don't have choice.Some people deserve that kind of "display"-ing.
"In order to progress, it is prudent to quietly accept what others in the truth of their
own experience have to say on this subject. Whether we believe what is said, or not, it
is our individual right to mentally process the information provided on our own without
intellectual criticism of anothers thought process."
Again agree! Unless "others" start anoying you so much that you just have to answer.
"It is an established fact that thousands of Treasure hunters have experienced beneficial
rewards from the use of Remote Sensing Discrimination. I know some of them personally"
Sorry i don't. I do know over 50-60 prospectors.Some of them very "rewarded".But in all
cases with convetional md only, also with some new techniques based on pure science, for
example some cesium gradiometer or NMR stuff etc.etc. Sorry,again but this is fact too.
"It is also a fact that RSD has not lived up to the advertised expectations of tens of
thousands of purchasers who have been victims of profiteering from mis-leading and false
advertising, sometimes intentional and sometimes in the sellers ignorance..."
Good! As a promoter of RSD, what have you done to make "clear" difference between frauds and
"real RSD" stuff. I mean here, on this forum, or any other forum, or in public anyhow?
You can also defend better your attitude by detaching it from them.As i am very ready not
to give up yet from RSD, i do beleive there are also other people like me. You can do
something in that direction more.
"The negative ratio of these generalized statistics do not show that RSD is not a viable
concept."
Sorry, you have to admit that generalized statistics is a fact!Present situation.
No "mumble-jumble" from Brasil will help at all! (Me personally adore Brasil, very nice
country,the best soccer and carnivals, also very nice people there).
"There are too many positives to be coincidence..."
UFO's too! Vampires too! Aliens too! Zombies too! etc.etc.
"It does however suggest the reasons for the negativity and that RSD is a viable concept
still in primitive stages, that warrants further development"
I live for that day! I would be very stupid not to use LRL or RSD instead of CMD if gain some
results.
"What has already been done by some, can also be done and improved on by others."
I already give here explanation of "how can be done" by personal "skills".

"I hope everyone will accept the RSD concept in that context and continue with your own ideas
for development and application. Thank you for your interest, input, and feed back to this
thread. "
Good and honest ideas, sometimes brings very bad effects. But still i am not against this thread
i am just against some claims, some people claimed here. Also do have need to react on lies and
frauds. Besides, in future we have to look ourselves in the mirror and see a man not a donkey!
If do nothing against trash and rubbish here like generally in real life, than better do not use
a mirror any more.
Anyway, this is a free forum! Anything involved here!

Esteban

05-20-2006, 12:32 AM

Qiaozhi, a friend provide me the schematic, and he said me is good.
As I put in the schematic, big iron object deffects the needle as non-ferrous, this is at the right.

hung

05-20-2006, 01:18 AM

Qiaozhi, a friend provide me the schematic, and he said me is good.
As I put in the schematic, big iron object deffects the needle as non-ferrous, this is at the right.

Well since I'm the one Brazilian here, after reading the specs and looking at the schematics, all indicates it's a standard MD with a coil size of about 4 '' diameter.

Esteban, do you know how deep this thing can go? I really doubt this goes deeper than my Minelab Excalibur, which by the way I also use for diving . Great on the beach and underwater.

ivconic

05-20-2006, 01:27 AM

:)
Hi people !
I just want to justify all Roberts claims here.We are collaborators for over the 20 years, so i am standing in front of his claims here. Picture from the field with Pulsestar II and big coil is real. Also remarks on mineoro testing too!
Take it easy.Calm down.
regards

Esteban

05-20-2006, 01:41 AM

Hung, of course, your Minelab is better all the live!!! I post this kind of schematic because MD based on PLL is no very common. You can alterate the coil and make type wand and use as pinpoint for to find the target.

michael

05-20-2006, 07:21 AM

Robert;If you think that it is the best way to "buy" some knowledge from the others, than you are on wrong track! By licking the a..
Oh there is no expectancy from you more than defiling others .thank you again. But I never humiliate you if I do whatâ€™s difference between me and animals???!!
Itâ€™s better you explain why try estrange us from truth by lyings?

What do you know on that subject? O.K. show some knowledge here. Teach me some !I bet that you do not know even what radio is!? DO you have any radio? Ha!
Do you mean a part of electromagnetic spectrum, ...? are you kidding us ? Even a grader knows it....
itâ€™s not important. The field experiences and results are important.
I told I am not a liar claimant. But you when ridicule others and claim are an expert even havenâ€™t made a test for radio waves, the test that I made.
We detected them by a cheap portable frequency-meter maximum at about 4 meters far from Transmitter. And inside a thick ceramic vase full of soil. Yes put probes inside it. And detected every frequency was set to emit from transmitter.
We got this result at the depth 3 meters (maybe goes deeper, but we had 3 meter as deepest hole) underground and a distance was the same. Of course transmitter was homemade with a powerful amplifier (output= about 200 watts). And works by 2 x 12 volts battery.
As I said before I am not electrician but know so-so. I have an expert electrician Who has 45 experience and made this he told if had a high sensitive frequency-meter (certainly is expensive =think said is about 12000 $ ) would be detected up to 300 feet far away.
By composing transmitters with Dell Directional Rod we got the best results.
We passed all of our double blind testes 100% successfully. (test was on Gold And Iron). The depth of â€¦..oh no thinking of itâ€¦. Please donâ€™t slander me as Dell hired man the same for mineoroâ€¦.
Is it enough? Oh man! I know you are a sophistication professor and try to tell something against. No problem, about it I disregard.
We got acquaint with a man could find only gold with his homemade MFD and 2 L rods. He was incredibly able to find gold in double blind testes everywhere in every condition in every test condition .What a pity soon missed him in a driving accident.
I myself didnâ€™t get satisfiable results by 2 L rods, never. But got with DDL the best. Itâ€™s why I believe in LRLing. hence I can not deny Mineoro prejudicely.
In spite of these we are not here to battle against each other, are here to learn From each other. May be I learn many things from other nice guys here and they One word from me.
Robert! Of course If you have done field efforts I respect to your experiences, but it doesnâ€™t mean just you are speaking of experiences "in vivo" not hypothetical.
Then think about your comments â€œâ€¦than you are on wrong track! By licking the a..â€????

michael

05-20-2006, 11:20 AM

...I used that "Omnitron" on the field many times, trying to locate some items with no success at all! The main concept was to choose desiring frequency and switch on the function generator...
Oh By the way;
are you sure your transmitter was intact?
I ask this because we prepared one LRL from Notsi (a Bulgarian firm) about 3 years ago.
It ruined one of our best opportunities and wasted a complete season of our life in one of the best areas for treasure hunting.
At first in every place we had signals for every valley or ramp.
realized there should be a problem. when checked by Oscilloscope had 2
problem; 1- it had a constant freq. 249 KHZ for every option and 2- the wave vas a broken sin. after 3 hours working on, freq output become fixed but the wave shape not. it had an inferior circuit made in Russia. and my electrician told the amplifier is too weak to dispatch wave far enough.
again started with Notsi, and never could pass the testes (even 5%).
then we made a powerful transmitter with a smooth and constant output wave (from 1 Hz to 100 Khz) and a changer for sinus to square and vice versa. but only sinus wave replied.
In our double blind tests (rod was DDL), we never got results by Notsi transmitter, but got good results by the homemade + DDL.
But we need a device be really able to scan hectares x hectares. maybe mineoro or other thing.

Dell Winders

05-20-2006, 07:29 PM

But we need a device be really able to scan hectares x hectares. maybe mineoro or other thing.

Michael, in my experience, I don't reccommend surveying distances of more than 100 yards at a time, maximum. Most practical survey's are conducted at a lesser distance, which I would also suggest when using the Mineoro. Dell

Esteban

05-20-2006, 07:49 PM

As Michael said, this is a site for to learn of others. I want to learn of any experimenter and, of course, I want to find somebody to teach me possitevely, no people automatically dissapoint investigations of others.

Maybe I wrong in some aspects for to achieve more scientifically or more accuracy devices and expect for somebody to teach me... yes I need learn more because, as you said, I watch in the mirror and only see a donkey!

As I see, there are persons that "Robert" who know all of alls. He don't need infos, nothing. He automatically dissapoint and ready!

Robert: wich is your experiences in long distance detectors? You, as engineer in telecommunications, had builded a device based on radio? If not, what you are waiting? Do you know that radio is good for to find good conductive metals? Maybe not, because in the university don't teach you and others about how to find treasure with radio. And why the professors don't teach about it? Simple: they don't experiment in this way! Better: don't know!

I, via my ignorance -but experimenting- achieve more than others. The persistence in some ideas and work in it, this is the unique way of the knowledge!

As maybe I don't know much about your profession -and as I don't know much, only a few- I don't attack you in your work.

Please, don't attack us (Detectoman, Dell, Hung, Michael, I and others)shooting in any direction, but with poor results in your objective.

Dell Winders

05-20-2006, 10:03 PM

Estaban, the person on the left in your 1981 Texas photo is Vic Scevers, another Treasaure hunter friend. I had the opportunity to use the Radio Frequency LRL in the field. When a radio station began broadcasting through the speaker I quickly realized the method that was being employed. Your RF application is still occasionally workable during optimum conditions. Dell

Esteban

05-20-2006, 10:21 PM

Dell, thanks very much. In this photo, Williams and Miguel, my cousin. And the two persons with beard, who are?

Dell Winders

05-20-2006, 10:53 PM

No, I was referring to the other photo taken behind the automobile. Dell

robert

05-20-2006, 11:00 PM

:D
"yes I need learn more because, as you said, I watch in the mirror and only see a donkey!"
It was just retorics. I do not consider anybody here as a donkey, esspecially not you Esteban!
And i don't want to wake up one morning and see a donkey in a mirror.That was on my mind.

"As I see, there are persons that "Robert" who know all of alls. He don't need infos, nothing.
He automatically dissapoint and ready!"
I would be very happy if do know "all of alls", like you claimed, but, of course there is no
such man yet,on this world. I do need infos, but much infos here are very obsolete and exceeded.
Some of present infos are barefaced lies, made by very ignorant persons, in manner to fulfill
some sick interest, nothing else.That kind of infos i do not need.
I never saw any schematic with tecnical notes here,that's bugs me most.If you look other forums
you'll see a much schematics with very competent notes,hints and tips from very conversant
people.I always check those in my lab, and it is very easy to establish some attitude on
that project and person who posted it.Here i see only "mega" claims and a lot of retorics.
If you are so sure in LRL stuff, why don't any of you post here any project, for others to
try,check and see? For example, Lostfox posted electronic dowsing rod project, with 567 i.c.
so everybody could make it and simply test it. Of course, later turns to be a nonsence toy, but
still Lostfox is worth of my respect, he made some effort, he didn't post stupid claims and
empty retorics. Can't you see Esteban, what is my point? All of you people here are just
talking,talking,claiming....How can anybody check all those? One more thing...You posted here
some link on modification on Kamil Craus project with 565 ic.I made that toy 10 years ago. It is
a sort of BFO.Totally unusable.You don't expect me to consider you as a serious man with posts
like this!? If you are still dealing with toys than what to say more!?
Hung almost compare it...:
"I really doubt this goes deeper than my Minelab Excalibur....."
Ha,ha,ha !!! Hung,man,are you a jokin!? Your Minelab Excalibur is a hell of a detector.Do not
compare it with toys please! I do consider MInelab detectors the very best of! The state of art
in detectors world! My best experiences are with Minelab detectors.
So,Esteban,Hung...man...reading some posts here, sometimes i am very confused about how to
evaluate your knowledge and how serioslly to judge your posts and you as a persons?

"Robert: wich is your experiences in long distance detectors? You, as engineer in
telecommunications, had builded a device based on radio? If not, what you are waiting? Do you
know that radio is good for to find good conductive metals? Maybe not, because in the university
don't teach you and others about how to find treasure with radio. And why the professors
don't teach about it? Simple: they don't experiment in this way! Better: don't know!"
Very rich, trust me. That's why i made such claims. Over the 15 years i do build a various
devices based on radio. I work as a professional for over 15 years. I made up to 300 radio
tx's, trancievers, handy's, amp's etc.etc. I am also radio amateur.Work on 80m,11m,2m,70cm...
I do have full lab with devices.What to say? Radio is NOT GOOD for finding any metals!
Radio frequencies from 150 kHz up to 2GHz(i been worked with) are NOT PENETRATING IN any
type of ground or through! Nobody here can convince me in a such stupid nonsence ever!
You are confusing so much terms and principles here.It is very hard for me to talk with you
cose you don't know what are you talking about!I do mean this from the deep of my heart I do
not want to insult you at all.This is not my intention at all.Not to undervalue you or your
intelect too.Just to tell you that you are confusing everything.Schools and university's are not
just for fun. You have to learn many more things to became conversant to talk about some things.
You are undervalued all that by your last calim.Try to post some like this to some science forum
or to some university, MIT for example.You'll get no answer or a big laugh from them.
"I, via my ignorance -but experimenting- achieve more than others"
O.K. i am ready to accept this if you post here some tech, not just retorics.Show here your
experiments, your projects, schematics, datas and i test it and later post you my oppinion.
Even i am ready to help you to solve some problems or to improve your work.Just look some
other thread here...

"The persistence in some ideas and work in it, this is the unique way of the knowledge!"
If do without elementar knowledge almost always ends with head trough wall!
"As maybe I don't know much about your profession -and as I don't know much, only a few-
I don't attack you in your work"
Thank you very much for that.It would lead us to nowhere too. I do not attack your work too.
I attack just empty claims without any tech background.

"Please, don't attack us (Detectoman, Dell, Hung, Michael, I and others)shooting in any
direction, but with poor results in your objective."

I started attacking mineoro not you people! But some of you became strong mineoro defenders
that's why faced with me and me with you. You found yourself "called" with no reason at all.
Later it turned into dirty argue and "war". I didn't want that at the begining.
To go with this further does not make any sence to me.But if you apply here some schematics
and projects on LRL than we can talk some constructive talk more.
You are claiming something about radio and RF. For a start come and post some about it.
Or shut up forever.
P.S.
another look on device which cost several hundreds of $ !!!
Come again and claim some claims here! This device worth nothing and do nothing.So how can
i respect any more of claims here? WHo i am dealing with here!?

P.S. II

AGAIN !???
agin anoying nonsence pictures that shows nothing!?
Is that all you can post here!?

ivconic

05-21-2006, 01:23 AM

:( There been so much efforts so far to establish right principle and method to prospect
some results with frequencies bellow 150 kHz. With more or less success some features
showed up so far.But still is to early to establish some rules.But it is quite wrong
to consider radio ways as "pentrating subject" in that matter. 50Hz soil noise with all
harmonics with, falses received results in huge percentage. Some "popular" devices showed
on market almost to fast, while suffering from mentioned phenomena to much. EMFAD UG12 is
my "beloved" example for that.Me and RObert were experimenting on that field for over the
10 years. Some results were gained but not enough to come out on "day light" with.It is not
serious at all to aproach on that matter like some people here done it.I abandoned this
kind of threads and retorics long time ago.But this time i just want to back up major
RObert claims about radio ways.It is absolute nonsence what some people claimed here!
Just to help you more, try to find some more informations on .net by ULF,VLF terms.Read very
carefully all,try to undestand some.Than come back again here and chat about it.

"Although in internet many materials can be found about earth dipoles used as antennas,
to understand how they works can be very complicated. With what principle does it work?
What is the frequency range where it can be used with good profit? What about reception
diagram? What's the signal component received with an earth dipole: electric field or magnetic
filed? With what polarization?
And still: why some signals present on air (as Schumann resonaces) can't be received with
earth probes? And why some signals received with earth dipole are not receivable on air? "
Renato Romero

Just an example.Many more included on the .net....
But beleiving in a conventional method of tx-ing some signal in the ground and a minute later
to receive "echoed" fragments of signal back is just very naive.No such thing!
Also no such power on TX. Present devices based on "semi LRL" with f.generator included as a
TX are more than unusable. The signal generated from some oscill. or f.generator is weak,no
matter how strong NF amp. you may use.It does not penetrate into ground at all.It can make some
"vibes" around with enormous power consumption and sort of a field if dealing with AC.Otherwise
if dealing with DC you'll go nowhere. It is guise to mistaken and confusing EMF with RF also
unattended,lack of elementar knowledge of composition of a signal as it could be generated with
various types of generators.Here people deal with terms and pieces of knowledge they just
by ocassion collect somewhere, so "easy" like it is a game.By acting like this no results
will occure, "fog walking" is all to gain.
I would not interfear in this discussion but something must say.
All "results" mentioned above dedicated to sources we can not check and prove any more.
.................................................. ....................................
"We got acquaint with a man could find only gold with his homemade MFD and 2 L rods.
He was incredibly able to find gold in double blind testes everywhere in every condition
in every test condition .What a pity soon missed him in a driving accident."
.................................................. .....................................
"I'm not the constructor. The person who built it MAYBE design one for my personal use.
He dissambled all the models to prevent copy. But during the "Gold Age" (for us) we found
many items. I assure you: we collect items like rice! Only precious things and coins."
.................................................. .....................................

So pay attention on those:
"...soon missed him in a driving accident..."
"...He dissambled all the models to prevent copy..."

I am to lazy to search threads for more like those two statements, but i remembered many
simillar "proofs" here and on some LRL forums too!
If you,people are establishing all your claims on that kind of a "proofs" than you are not
serious at all!Besides those "proofs" we have some more: we have Mineoro which is not
working at all,we have "omnitron" (several types) which are not working at all, we have
various types of rods, which are not working at all.....at the end we do not have any
proof at all!!!
So at the end what are we talking here about!? We all do share good wishes and dreams
about such apparatus with which we can find item on long distance and at great depth...
I can absolutelly agree with you on that! I do have same dreams like you! But rude
reallity gives me no such device so far!
Suspecting in Robert's and mine claims here will give you no satisfaction at all.Arguing
and spitting with Robert too. Posting pictures of some people,hanging each other,or pictures
of some items will prove nothing too!
Just a remark: no use from those pictures at all, just a harm! Opening these pages sometimes
become anoying and very timing, esspecially when internet connections are poor, like here at
my place. At least posting some usable .jpg with tech contents will compensate spended time
and money here.

Forum administrator should take care of this problem in further.This forum is very public,
for all of us to share.By anoying with unusable contents which spread all over the whole
page we all gain nothing here!
I guess Carl is administrator here. So Carl,please give here extra instructions about
further posts, if you please.You should limit some post here, unless they do not comprehend
schematics and tech.
Thank you very much in advance!

Esteban

05-21-2006, 02:43 AM

I never saw any schematic with tecnical notes here,that's bugs me most.If you look other forums you'll see a much schematics with very competent notes,hints and tips from very conversant

Do you check the Geotech Front Page? There are many schematics with very competent notes. So, only I can think that the effort of Carl Moreland was zero. Of course, you can't find here schematic of Minelab, for example. If you have this kind of modern schematic that you pretend, do you can post me in private? Also I will say you thanks! if you send me "obsolete" schematics, because there are many things that the persons forgot and re-invent time to time! You can't measure the quantities of "obsolete" info I post here, include a incorrect copy of the PI Barracude, redrawing by Chris.

If you don't know, this is the second epoch of the forum, this re-start in first months of 2005, but If I remember well, the first start in 1998 or 1999, don't remember, but sure I participate since 2000.

Also, I post of my invention (maybe) a sensitive indicator (555 as comparator)of wich I have 10 or more variations:

http://thunting.com/geotech/forums/showthread.php4?p=40891#post40891

More obsolete:

http://thunting.com/geotech/forums/showthread.php4?p=40113#post40113

http://thunting.com/geotech/forums/showthread.php4?p=39888#post39888

http://thunting.com/geotech/forums/showthread.php4?t=11197

http://thunting.com/geotech/forums/showthread.php4?t=11129

http://thunting.com/geotech/forums/showthread.php4?p=39407#post39407

http://thunting.com/geotech/forums/showthread.php4?p=39403#post39403

http://thunting.com/geotech/forums/showthread.php4?t=11022

http://thunting.com/geotech/forums/showthread.php4?p=38440#post38440

http://thunting.com/geotech/forums/showthread.php4?p=38373#post38373

http://thunting.com/geotech/forums/showthread.php4?t=10751

http://thunting.com/geotech/forums/showthread.php4?t=10747

http://thunting.com/geotech/forums/showthread.php4?t=10673

How Tesla Serbian inventor help to find gold:

http://thunting.com/geotech/forums/showthread.php4?t=10570

Also investigate starting of MD. This can found at 25 m and is obsolete:

http://thunting.com/geotech/forums/showthread.php4?t=11096

Also post non-obsolete stuffs:

http://www.nasatech.com/Briefs/Apr02/NPO20684.html

http://thunting.com/geotech/forums/showthread.php4?p=40789#post40789

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6914552.html

http://thunting.com/geotech/forums/showthread.php4?p=39076#post39076

More:

http://thunting.com/geotech/forums/showthread.php4?p=40605#post40605

http://thunting.com/geotech/forums/showthread.php4?p=40241#post40241

Tiopepe and Victor send me part by part and later I resized and compilated later and posted in mytemdir.com:

http://thunting.com/geotech/forums/showthread.php4?t=11247

Large Sarge thank me (also, thank you, Large Sarge):

Way to go Esteban, You da man!
__________________
Dennis
USAF Ret.
"A liberal is man too broad-minded to take his own side in a quarrel."
-- Robert Frost

More:

http://thunting.com/geotech/forums/showthread.php4?p=39987#post39987

http://thunting.com/geotech/forums/showthread.php4?t=11112

http://thunting.com/geotech/forums/showthread.php4?p=42996#post42996

Also have posted many but many sites regarding MD in Russian, French, Spanish, Portuguese, English and another language I don't understand and very more "stupid" stuffs.

Of course, your shield is: "This is obsolete", "Also this other", "This is stupid". Obsolote or no obsolete... the question is to post any stupid or not and obsolete or not device.

Your friend Ivconic post an interesting schematic (is his effort, thanks).

* * * * * * * * *

For example, Lostfox posted electronic dowsing rod project, with 567 i.c.
so everybody could make it and simply test it. Of course, later turns to be a nonsence toy, but still Lostfox is worth of my respect, he made some effort, he didn't post stupid claims and empty retorics. Can't you see Esteban, what is my point? All of you people here are just talking,talking,claiming....How can anybody check all those? One more thing...You posted here some link on modification on Kamil Craus project with 565 ic.I made that toy 10 years ago. It is a sort of BFO.Totally unusable.You don't expect me to consider you as a serious man with posts like this!? If you are still dealing with toys than what to say more!?

Don't understand!!!: First, you applaud the "non sense toy" posted, with "some effort", by Lostfox. Later the modification of Kamil Krauss, "obsolete", OK, any effort mean for you.

Maybe 650 khz we used can't penetrates the ground, but the phenomenom associated with long time buried metals is present on the surface. Justly I need 200 to 500 kHz for to sense variation of few hertz in the sender coil, OK?

agin anoying nonsence pictures that shows nothing!?
Is that all you can post here!?

Yes, I post the device with the items "in loco" or "in vivo". Also I post all the links showed in this reply.

Dell Winders

05-21-2006, 06:06 AM

AGAIN !???
agin anoying nonsence pictures that shows nothing!?
Is that all you can post here!?

Robert, here is a compilation of similar pictures displaying the interiors of LRL's to keep you annoyed. Happy annoyance! Dell

http://www.thunting.com/cgi-bin/geotech/pages/common/index.pl?page=lrl&file=reports.dat

Carl-NC

05-21-2006, 03:59 PM

I guess Carl is administrator here. So Carl,please give here extra instructions about further posts, if you please.You should limit some post here, unless they do not comprehend schematics and tech.

Obviously, I would like the discussions to remain rooted in technical issues. But LRLs in general are controversial, and there are strong opinions on both sides of the fence. So, I try to maintain an open forum that offers proponents and skeptics a place to discuss both technical and philosophical issues, without the censorship that has occurred on other sites. My only demand is that everyone remain civil.

So far, I applaud the overall conduct of this forum. There have been occasional posts that have skirted the boundaries of ettiquette, but so far nothing that has provoked me to intervene.

It is my opinion that LRLs based on dowsing rods are nothing but exercises in self-deception. They simply do not work. When these types of LRLs are submitted to randomized blind tests, they perform no better than guessing, even in the hands of "experienced" users. Every time.

Some of the Mineoro locators, and other similar devices that have begun popping up, do not use dowsing in any way. The operational claims of these devices are not in line with known physics in several ways. I have asked repeatedly for experimental procedures that will validate the claims of these devices, but so far this has not happened.

I have personally tested and dissected a PDC205... it did not work, and based on what I found inside the device, it could not possibly work according to the operational claims. I have sent several emails to Mineoro in an effort to discuss my $25,000 challenge, but they will not reply.

It appears that the technical discussion has run its course. Without experiments that could demonstrate the claims of Mineoro, and without scientific tests that show the devices work, there is little else to do but argue the philosophical side. In my opinion, that is a waste of time.

Hung has mentioned that Damasio will visit the US for a demonstration of the FG78. I would like very much to be at that demonstration, and I will definitely offer my $25,000 to Damasio for a randomized blind test. Then we will see for certain whether it works.

- Carl

robert

05-22-2006, 12:09 AM

:D :eek:

Esteban now you are posting nonsences and lies here !!!
I want you to show me, where exactlly you posted some technical about some LRL here
on this forum ever !?
List you listed here are your posts on some toys (YES! TOYS,OBSOLETE,UNUSABLE).
What!? You made some minor suggests on simpliest 2Box project i ever seen so far.
Absolute toy! Why don't you post some improvements on TM808!? Ha!
Do you need me here to name to you all your unusable posts here, item by item on
your list!? Nothing! Severeal post,posted just to fullfil your apetite to be known
and to be present, nothing else! You also posted a few links to somebody's else
sites and somebody's else knowledge - not yours!
Where is at least ONE your post about LRL or mineoro-look-like device here or anywhere
else!? With schematic,hints,tips,datas.....Ha! Where is it!
You collected during last years a bunch of kid's project from some kid's newspaper and
posted here like "serious" remarks or something....! Ha,ha,ha !!!
I am asking YOU and OTHERS here on this funny thread, to POST HERE AT LEAST ONE.....
AND I REPEAT A T L E A S T O N E schematic(i mean serious not scrap toy) on LRL
subject or any simillar type of apparatus!Full project, with tech background,opinions,
step by step constructing etc.etc.
If you don't know how(which i am sure) than look on other threads to see how other people
done here....
Instead of posting some pictures where man hanging each other,holding some very funny
devices in hands and showing some suspectable items, like proving something.What!?
And always you use the same matrix:"....my cousin did that, my cousin did this.....
my cousin stand with this....blah,blah,blah...."
I don't give a s.... about your cousin and his life. I am looking for content which
suitable to name of this thread. This thread is not named "Esteban's cousin....", this
thread is named "MInero" !!!!
It supposed to include technical retorics,projects and schematics of mineoro and
mineoro-look-like devices overall....like any other normal thread here!
Instead of that you and so much like you people are anoying everybody else here by
promoting some nonsences backuped with a pile of funny,stupid pictures.
What!? You don't like my language!? Of course you don't!? I did'nt like your at your
last post. Instead to answer me in proper manner you posted here more anoying.
Also,just to let you know.I do not need your list of posts. I do keep whole forum with
overall content here, on my hard disk, and keep it updated every day! At every moment
i am fully awared of anything what's going on here! I do have whole forum here in front
of my eyes all the time whether on line or off line.I am fully awared of all posts and
schematics here at any moment, so i do know very well about you are talking even before
you start it.
Dell, thank you very much for reminding me! Only thanks to Carl,one and only, we do have
here full overview on most of LRL scrap products,including some of yours too!

Esteban again:
"Also, I post of my invention (maybe) a sensitive indicator (555 as comparator)of wich I
have 10 or more variations:..."
Ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha !!!! So you invented 555 ic !!!???? Ha,ha,ha !!!!
Just go on the .net and ask for 555 manufacturer application with much examples of how to
use it.......i didn't saw your name on it!?
Variations of yours, are so simple and funny....what to say!?Is that all you can do!?
Ha,ha,ha !!!

Enough now. These were my poisoned arrows on you! Sorry! I go to far!I felt a bit pissed
from your last post.I am not gonna do it again for sure!Regards to you good Esteban!
P.S.
Still i am waiting some schematics here......

hung

05-22-2006, 01:28 AM

I just got home from the weekend, turn computer on, go to the forum and I see this 'battle' happening one more time... I really expected we all to help each other. I am sure a lot of people here discuss politely, but why there are some people who insist in bashing each other's beliefs? LRLs...
There are some who not satisified in dasagreeing about it regarding as reliable, bash who believe!
We are not here for this. As Esteban said, we are here excahnge ideas and concepts with each other...

The operational claims of these devices are not in line with known physics in several ways. I have asked repeatedly for experimental procedures that will validate the claims of these devices, but so far this has not happened.

Ok.. here I go again... i'm not defending Mineoro. I am defending the right I have to believe in somethin I know of. Everybody has the right to believe in what they want.
Carl it's not because you don't know the concept behind it, you might say it's not in line with knwon physics. Think... if the inventor reveals the concept, then everybody would clone one. Your satisfatory explanation may never come...

It appears that the technical discussion has run its course. Without experiments that could demonstrate the claims of Mineoro, and without scientific tests that show the devices work, there is little else to do but argue the philosophical side. In my opinion, that is a waste of time.

Exactly. Do you think it's important to me arguing about those things? No!!
The PDC 210 was used to find a jesuit site. My partner in my team who had one long before me has found innumerous items. Do you think I will lose my time worried about scientific tests to prove wheter it works or not?
OK. I am not hung.. How can I prove I'm hung?

Hung has mentioned that Damasio will visit the US for a demonstration of the FG78. I would like very much to be at that demonstration, and I will definitely offer my $25,000 to Damasio for a randomized blind test. Then we will see for certain whether it works.

I do wish Damasio can make it. He's about 70 and suffers from diabethes. He told me in the pas he was willing to do it. I really hope he's up to this as he know the importance of the US in this field.

hunterq3

05-22-2006, 09:25 AM

Yes ! scientific tests show anything to the devices(FG78 etc) .We wait Damasio visiting the US for a demonstration of the FG78,Then we will see for certain whether it works.
and where carl 's $25,000 to go?
we waiting

robert

05-22-2006, 11:39 AM

:)
Hung, first a big HI to you! (i hope this polite enough)
"...and I see this 'battle' happening one more time... "
What's wrong with the 'battle' ? Nothing.Pure democracy.
"why there are some people who insist in bashing each other's beliefs?"
No,not beliefs at all! Just presented claims only! I am not that free to bash
your beliefs at all. I just can not stand claims here.
"There are some who not satisified in dasagreeing about it regarding as reliable,
bash who believe!"
Well, if we agree on everything than must be something wrong with us! Why "foruming"?
You are free to beleive what ever you want.Nobody could stop you that.But beware of
claiming some of your beleives here.
"As Esteban said, we are here excahnge ideas and concepts with each other..."
Empty retorics on LRL and mineoro principles does'nt help here at all! Exchanging
non-interesting pictures here too! By the way where are your ideas and concepts
here!? Did i missed something!?
"Think... if the inventor reveals the concept, then everybody would clone one. Your
satisfatory explanation may never come..."
I don't think so! Why then everybody can not clone devices like G-858, or Garrett
GTI 2500 or Pulsestar II or simillar devices!? Is that hard for mineoro manufacturers
to go to U S P T O and protect their patents from cloning!? Even if cloned, original alwasys
stays ORIGINAL! If it is working good and true than i'll always choose original instead
of clone.
"..Exactly. Do you think it's important to me arguing about those things? No!!"
Than what is purpose of you being here!? What are you doing here!? Who's pushing you
to come here!? Just to put some nonsence claim here and go
without further explanations!? Who gave you right on that!?
Is'nt that real bashing!?
Is'nt that a real anoyance!?
"..My partner in my team who had one long before me has found innumerous items..."
AGAIN!? "..my friend..", "..my cousin..", " ..my partner..","...man who died..." etc.etc.
Real nice proofs! Come again with something like:"..my dead grandma..."
"..OK. I am not hung.. How can I prove I'm hung?.."
Who's pushing you to prove yor name!? It has nothing to do with this thread. Besides
"HUNG" is just fine, like "Esteban","Robert" or something else....Ideas are important
not names!

"...I do wish Damasio can make it. He's about 70 and suffers from diabethes. He told me
in the pas he was willing to do it. I really hope he's up to this as he know the importance
of the US in this field."
I wish to him a good health and more years.No body normal attack that here.Besides as i heared
"Aloya Vera Gel" is very good,terapeutic for diabethes."Aloya" manufacturers and their plants
are spread all over North and also South America. Easy to provide there.
Nobody wants from him to risk his health and come on "heavy" trip to prove anything!
But everybody wants proofs backuped with science here on this pages!

"....and where carl 's $25,000 to go?..."
It is not a question about only $25,000 ! It is a question about some millions here!
If concept is right and backuped than no worrys.If not than millions could be stealed
from naives worldvide!
Hung and others, if you do not put any "material" proofs here, backuped with reallity
than simply do not show here and for real "bash", with nonsences, others!
Your beleifs are not in question here. Keep it for yourself, for good. Claims are in
question here. Either explain and backup, or either stop anoying!
This type of posts will continue so far as nonsences continue.It is quite time to stop
spreading false stuff here! Me and my accessarys will be here around the clock and on every
nonsence claim here we gonna answer in a proper manner.Until you beleivers change your
"style" here or disapear from this pages.It is final!
And if administrator decide to excomunicate name "RObert",(which is his full right),
from here, than some other name will show here and continue further!
It is time to clean this excell forum(best so far)from trash,rubbish and scrap for GOOD!

Besides this is not an LRL forum at all!You have a bunch of LRL forums on the .net, go there!
Come here only with serious and true story! THIS IS TECH FORUM! Not "mumbble-jumbble" forum.
Only in the name of democracy this forum consist some LRL pages,threads....But those
pages supposed to show real situation on that field.Not to advertise that kind of
products also not to spread lies about it.Not to collect customers for that kind of
products either.
regards

Esteban

05-22-2006, 03:46 PM

The only "technical input" you have posting is your photo with Strujas and Ivconic. "Tender taken care the baby in the hammock". :D Pure democracy! Wait from your part obsolete info, for me is OK, but as I see you want to obtain infos for nothing. This I think: In the future you'll use this site for to evacuate your poisons! This is the proof you only want the info also you can't post:
P.S.
Still i am waiting some schematics here......

Esteban

05-22-2006, 04:26 PM

To Ivconic and Robert. If you don't want to see the photos, don't open the thread. Only if Carl want, I'll stop it.

If you don't read with attention:

Carl wrote:

BTW, I like the pics you've posted. Interesting.

- Carl

http://thunting.com/geotech/forums/showthread.php4?t=11046&page=9&pp=25

Dell Winders

05-22-2006, 05:08 PM

It appears that Robert has proclaimed himself dictator of Geotech forums. Hypocricisy is worn like a badge of honor among the Skeptic Cult.

I have no problem with the way Carl, wishes to run his forums or who he wishes to have participate. It's none of my business. I wish good fortune to all. Dell

Esteban

05-22-2006, 10:09 PM

Robert:

First, all the poison you can vomit, I'm immune to all! Snakes don't scare me!

Esteban now you are posting nonsences and lies here !!!
I want you to show me, where exactlly you posted some technical about some LRL here on this forum ever !?

And you? Or you have posted under other name, no as "Robert"? My real name is Esteban, but yours isn't Robert (you said). About lies...

* * * * * * * * *

List you listed here are your posts on some toys (YES! TOYS,OBSOLETE,UNUSABLE).

Post your toys, and maybe I'll play with these. When I post the article in Brazilian magazine regarding "obsolete" (your word) PLL metal detector, also I think in the words of Carl in the "Reference" section of MD about non-English publications.

* * * * * * * * *

What!? You made some minor suggests on simpliest 2Box project i ever seen so far.

The modification of this detector wit addition of one more stage and powerfull transmitter I have done. Sure no audio needed, only the microamp. And I was surprised how sensitive can be... with the correct adjust in the coils, no added or quit cap, yes added or quit turns (valid for all types of MD). Do you know this?

Sometimes, obsolete germanium (as transmitter) transistor is better (in power, no in another aspects) in two boxes designs.

Do you try to put an empty plug in the earphone connection for to eliminate the audio and only use the uamp in two boxes because the audio (speaker) in some two boxes models produces a type of microphonic or feedback effect?

I dissambled the 808 (in 1986 or 87 - question: is an obsolete two boxes?) the part of the metal pipe for to repair. Do you have drawing the both values? I have. No in the fact to demonstrate you if you have or not drawing of the both values, yes that I work in it, dedication we said...

Do you know that the best two boxes I use -and I have the handrawing schematic- is by ElectrÃ³nica Aplicada of Argentine? Fet transmitter, simple instalation plastic cable coils, all in metal pipe. Receiver: fets, only two 741, separate stages by AM FI transformers? Have 5 k potentiometer correction phase in the coil, so the mechanical adjust is only a few, very few, a delicate touch in the screw?

Also have handrawing by myself of MDs, with much effort! Maybe obsolete, but yes a work, a effort, no retorics.

* * * * * * * * *

You also posted a few links to somebody's else sites and somebody's else knowledge - not yours!

If I sent links, if for to help in some aspects or clariffy. Please, send us your infos or links here. Make a effort. I understand maybe you have limitation or internet is expensive in some locations (Ivconic explain it).

Send here useful info, links, etc., and I'll say thank you!

* * * * * * * * *

Where is at least ONE your post about LRL or mineoro-look-like device here or anywhere else!? With schematic,hints,tips,datas.....Ha! Where is it!

And you? You are in the same place. If I have Mineoro's schematics, is my problem. I'll don't post here only for to demonstrate you G R A T I S!

* * * * * * * * *

You collected during last years a bunch of kid's project from some kid's newspaper and posted here like "serious" remarks or something....! Ha,ha,ha !!!

Yes, is true and is good. Why not? Of all types. What kind of schematic do you have? What I have you don't? Do you have a list?

* * * * * * * * *

I am asking YOU and OTHERS here on this funny thread, to POST HERE AT LEAST ONE..... AND I REPEAT A T L E A S T O N E schematic(i mean serious not scrap toy) on LRL subject or any simillar type of apparatus!Full project, with tech background,opinions, step by step constructing etc.etc.

What? How many dinars for me from your part, your industry?

* * * * * * * * *

If you don't know how(which i am sure) than look on other threads to see how other people done here....

Yes, send us the link of other forum in wich you "conversant" about LRL based in electronics -and his schematics was posted.

Yes, I know some things, no in the level of your engineering, maybe. And know many types, but not for you! If you have of more high level, let us know. Maybe infrared, RF or ultrasonic are obsoletes!

* * * * * * * * *

Instead of posting some pictures where man hanging each other,holding some very funny devices in hands and showing some suspectable items, like proving something.What!?

In the same direction, post here your (of another people) experiences, include the items unearthed. I can't provide another proof. With your same criteria, the photo you was posted is unreal. At this point, I can't see the item you has unearthed. With the same criteria, NASA's photos showing the USA's men on the Moon are falses. No discussion here if who are more feasible, the fact is: are the photos unreals? Shows or not the truth? Translation: If I'm not in the place, is unreal.

* * * * * * * * *

And always you use the same matrix:"....my cousin did that, my cousin did this..... my cousin stand with this....blah,blah,blah...."
I don't give a s.... about your cousin and his life. I am looking for content which suitable to name of this thread. This thread is not named "Esteban's cousin....", this thread is named "MInero" !!!!

The base of actual Mineoro are the devices has been posted by me, with much effort and money for to collect, first, and scan. If I show the pics in wich appear my cousin, is because He start in it in the trips years before me.

* * * * * * * * *

It supposed to include technical retorics,projects and schematics of mineoro and mineoro-look-like devices overall....like any other normal thread here!
Instead of that you and so much like you people are anoying everybody else here by promoting some nonsences backuped with a pile of funny,stupid pictures. What!? You don't like my language!? Of course you don't!? I did'nt like your at your last post. Instead to answer me in proper manner you posted here more anoying.

Yes, you can start providing us the projects and schematics...

Every time I clariffy not in defense of Mineoro (understand?), yes in the fact that electronic LRL is reality since many years. Also I explain that two models I try at fully detects well. If you read with attention, also I explain that is some difficult to center (pinpoint) the exact point, and charged clouds produces inestability in these models. As you can see, also the Mineoro's problems was posted by me. Since the launch of these models I told Mr. DamÃ¡sio that also detects copper and bronze items, not only gold (can detect from the diesel vehicle in movement, no problem). So, the fact that detect copper and bronze items was actualized in the Mineoro's brochure. The truth is the truth. Can't emit opinion about another models. I have the new 2006, but I don't try at full, for the moment is very stable. Forgot: also told Alonso that the first microcontroller version wasn't good. I was the first critic -maybe in private- of Mineoro and the inventors can confirm all it.

Yes, I like your language, because this strong me. Please, send me more of your instructive poisoned language.

What I can ask you in proper manner? How to detect gold via infrared rays, for example?

* * * * * * * * *

Also,just to let you know.I do not need your list of posts. I do keep whole forum with overall content here, on my hard disk, and keep it updated every day! At every moment i am fully awared of anything what's going on here! I do have whole forum here in front of my eyes all the time whether on line or off line.I am fully awared of all posts and schematics here at any moment, so i do know very well about you are talking even before you start it.

As I see: this forum don't cover your expectations in any aspect!

Many persons don't understand very well about your attacks here. So, I'm ready for to deffend Dell, Hung, Michael, Detectoman, Carl... and all another persons are "bad" and "liers" for you. With democracy.
* * * * * * * * *

Dell, thank you very much for reminding me! Only thanks to Carl,one and only, we do have here full overview on most of LRL scrap products,including some of yours too!

Reminding? Suspect you never open all the pages created by Carl with much effort of his part. Thanks Carl!

* * * * * * * * *

Esteban again:
"Also, I post of my invention (maybe) a sensitive indicator (555 as comparator)of wich I have 10 or more variations:..."
Ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha !!!! So you invented 555 ic !!!???? Ha,ha,ha !!!!
Just go on the .net and ask for 555 manufacturer application with much examples of how to use it.......i didn't saw your name on it!?
Variations of yours, are so simple and funny....what to say!?Is that all you can do!?
Ha,ha,ha !!!

Yes Esteban again: I refer about the comparator application, only found a reference in a book about 555 (very complete, in Portuguese version of 1976), no adjustable point. Don't found in datasheet of National, for example. I said variations because any sensor can used, include receiver coil as MD. No more. As you see, I was use the word "maybe"...

I can do more, but what input I can expect from you? Poison, vomit? Waiting for it!

* * * * * * * * *

Enough now. These were my poisoned arrows on you! Sorry! I go to far!I felt a bit pissed from your last post.I am not gonna do it again for sure!Regards to you good Esteban!

As I said in the starting of this message, don't scare me.
Regards to you good, Robert!

* * * * * * * * *

P.S.
Still i am waiting some schematics here......

Read the reply in another part of this thread. But if you are a good boy, maybe somebody -can be I, who knows?- post one.

hung

05-22-2006, 10:33 PM

Since the launch of these models I told Mr. DamÃ¡sio that also detects copper and bronze items, not only gold (can detect from the diesel vehicle in movement, no problem). So, the fact that detect copper and bronze items was actualized in the Mineoro's brochure.

Esteban, please allow me to just add some details on this. Yes, the PDCs and the later models (don't know about the FG78 yet) do detect silver, bronze and copper alloys. But VERY little. In the order of 5%, meaning that 95% of the time it is gold. This is due to the close ion types of the noble metals. I already talked about this with Damasio. however I'm not allowed to say much more.

I have the new 2006, but I don't try at full, for the moment is very stable.

Cool to hear you confirming this. As I said I was in contact with guys who bought it last january and they found items 3 days in a row at the beach. Guess they did not find more because they had a plane to catch. Since you live in a region Torquato told me is desert like climate, with low humidity, you will (as in portuguese term for a big sucess acomplished) 'be giving a big party' soon.

What version you got? The one with the centralizer knob in the front close to the ionic chamber (first version) or the one with the knob actually set in the row of knobs in the back? (second version)

Esteban

05-22-2006, 11:15 PM

Hung, no, in more high percentage than 5%, mainly in very dry and salty terrain. No problem it, since a colonel found with it a bronze minibox containing gold and jewels. There are in a room. The bed is over the small treasure and the person sleep all the time over it! If you "abuse" in the sensibility of the controls, hope this percentage is more high than 20%.

The second version. In other model saw the zero adjustment knob in the front, near the ionic chamber, but I prefer the model with less controls.

hung

05-22-2006, 11:30 PM

The bed is over the small treasure and the person sleep all the time over it!

He,he,he,he. Typical of latin american military people. I guess there are a lot like him around here too.

robert

05-23-2006, 01:51 AM

:)
Esteban's story like scraped record....always the same !!!

robert

05-23-2006, 01:53 AM

:)
Continue to post pictures here please....
I am gonna collect a nice collection of dorks!!!

Esteban

05-23-2006, 02:17 AM

:D
Sure, you can collect these because you can't obtain of any source, only by me!

michael

05-23-2006, 08:33 AM

Hi Esteban and hung. Please continue puttting more experiences and recently founds that only you are cognizant of. Sure they will be appreciated.
Esteban! I am sure your every honesty & sincere effort is being and will be appreciated by every one is busy or involved in treasure hunting. it's logical you not to put your latest science here and again see ingratitude habits as I were you did so. Continue your way strongly as sovereign.
indeed science is son of experience. Science went from experience to universities & colleges. Persons like as you, Damassio & Alonso and etc make sciences.
lest you become despondent or unwilling.
Hung! nice man! as I believe in you, we are willingly and impatiently waiting for your new reports of FG78. If approve, we will order it.
Don't deprive us and this forum from your bliss because here name is"Remote Sensing"
It's the time for new generation instrument and getting rid of boring tardy CMDs, GPRs with your help.
so many people like as Dell, Esteban, Hung as well I, have experienced remote sensing results and know one thing; It's a true concept and works, now others what desire to tell, write inimical not deserve to be discussed.
"You can awake a real asleep, but never can do it for one sham to sleep"

robert

05-23-2006, 11:58 AM

:confused:

Well....
"..It appears that Robert has proclaimed himself dictator of Geotech forums..."
Well,it is very bad, if you are thinking so. To prove you the oposite, i'll do
something which you'll never expect from me. I'll stop for a while (my team too) and
not to "bash" you for a some time. I'll give this thread a chance to sooner or later
became productive. I am gonna update posts from here, every day, and wait someone
of you to post something usefull. If Esteban continue with pics, than i can do
nothing against it, who's gonna stop him!? Nobody! It will count on his bad credit anyway!
To continue with arguing with a few of you, so far did'nt help, neither to me,neither
to you,neither to this thread.Everybody here stuck to self belives for good.
By not showing any will to post here more practical stuff, you just convinced me more
that this subject is false! Esteban do not want to show here any of "real" stuff he
has (I don't beleive that he has at least one good schematic on lrl subject), like
he said, not for gratis....than what to expect further!? Nobody asking you Esteban to
post here schematic of mineoro latest model, or some device which is still very comercial!
I wanted you to post some project on some device we can assemble and test, which is not
a simple toy but some more complicated then usually posted here....But if you think that
it is not good idea, than alright.I can not make you to do that. I do not have neither one
schematic or project on that subject(lrl and simillar) to post here.I do have a 450 CD's
with various schematics.If you need something from electronics just name it.If file is
not to big for uploading I'll send it for you and any other.No big deal for me.My "poison"
is send to you to provoke you to start thinking productive.It appeared very wrong so far, so
i'll stop for a while.If i think that you are idiot, i would'nt post you even a one word!
Of course i do think that you have something to say! But so far you said very few things!
I still beleive that previous posts of yours, does'nt contributed much here, on mineoro
subject.Only pictures and claims....But it is showing only that you and your friends are not
ready to give more....or maybe you don't have more to give..Only you know that.
About others here....well,ocassionally people come here and do not contribute at all.Just
backuping one or the other side by retorics, nothing else. If you compare this thread with
other threads from this forum, you'll find that it is worst of all. Neither one schematic,
neither one technical,neither one project, except ivconic ion detector which has moved to
another thread....
So let's calm down ant think. I do not see a bright future here if continue like this.
What do you think?

regards